Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Stratos on December 28, 2012, 12:27:37 PM
Title: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Stratos on December 28, 2012, 12:27:37 PM
I started this conversation in the rumor thread and wanted to continue it properly in it's own area.
I believe that after the N64 era Nintendo has seemingly chosen to stifle its creativity in limiting the release and the scope of their new IP. Sure, there are a few new ideas; yet Nintendo seems to either limit the scope of their newer ideas when with the proper support of their creators these IPs could easily become as big as Mario, Zelda and Pokemon
I've included the original conversation here from the rumor thread and hope to hear some more thoughts from y'all on the matter.
I'm shocked they didn't include Miis in Brawl. It just makes too much sense to include what have to be the most significant new characters Nintendo's created in close to a decade.
It's gotta be longer than a decade. I don't think Olimar and his Pikmin can't really count as significant considering Nintendo regularly ignores the series.
It is kinda sad that they are only really making one new IP or so a generation: Pikmin on the Gamecube and Miis on the Wii. Even in the established franchises they haven't made many new additions. The biggest new Mario character I can think of is Rosalina. Before that all I recall is Tingle and Waluigi in the N64 generation and one of those are just a clone.
Any other 'new' characters in the Mario world have bit roles and are tossed away after a brief cameo. And great new characters like Midna in Zelda are forgotten.
I'm hoping my memory is failing me but what else has Nintendo brought to us (and kept with us) since the time of the N64 in terms of new IPs and characters? Pikmin, Rosalina, Tingle and Miis seem to be it.
I don't count games they choose to abandon in Japan because they are just that: abandoned.
Animal Crossing was in that span, and I think a character based on that would work well. There's also Custom Robo, which is fairly obscure, but has seen two releases outside of Japan.
Animal Crossing was in that span, and I think a character based on that would work well. There's also Custom Robo, which is fairly obscure, but has seen two releases outside of Japan.
Forgot about those, but they do seem to not fit the role of 'major' IPs. They could easily become major IPs if Nintendo would cultivate them more but Nintendo treats them more like inconvenient necessities than big releases. If it isn't Mario, Zelda, Pokemon or their 'flavor of the season' IP like Metroid or Kirby they don't make a huge deal about it.
In terms of games: >Animal Crossing was an N64 title. >Custom Robo hasn't seen anything since the early DS title with no Wii title. Also an older series dating back to N64 (earlier?) >Chibi Robo's last game was a Wal-Mart exclusive which limited its availability and exposure. >Fire Emblem skips every other title in its release schedule. Also dates back to pre-N64. >Nintendo owns the IP rights for Eternal Darkness and it's game mechanics yet we have not seen a sequel, spiritual or otherwise. >The 'Rainfall Three' had to be forced here with the help of Non-Nintendo forces.
All those characters you mentioned (with the possible exception of Dr. E Gaad) would fall under the label of minor characters.
I feel my original point still stands that Nintendo has not produced much, if any, meaningful new significant IP since the N64 era. They have the potential for it, but they regularly choose to ignore those underdeveloped IPs.
Thoughts? Disagreements? Has my memory failed to recall some important IPs of the past decade or so? Or has Nintendo truly begun to stagnate? I didn't see it that way until recently. Perhaps the management is getting too old and until they step down we will be stuck in this recycled loop.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on December 28, 2012, 12:41:42 PM
I believe Miyamoto has basically said he doesn't make a new IP unless he absolutely has to. If he can, he puts it in an existing franchise. Since he's in charge of Nintendo's biggest internal studio, this has understandably limited the development of new IPs in recent years. Nintendo just doesn't see the creation of new IPs as a priority.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: UncleBob on December 28, 2012, 12:56:01 PM
I have to agree with Nintendo.
In the list of things I care about when playing a game, "New IP" isn't even on it.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on December 28, 2012, 01:00:34 PM
I really don't mind either, since they do a good job of innovating within their existing franchises.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: bustin98 on December 28, 2012, 01:06:54 PM
I don't think the issue is creating new IPs. It goes into not utilizing the potential of existing IPs. They take an idea that has worked in the past, and then stop. There is no over-arching policy that regulates a bare minimum of a customer interaction with the software.
If you look at what Microsoft and Sony are doing, they don't care about selling games, they care about using games as a gateway to the services that they sell. The services provide a platform from which customers have an experience that makes them feel more connected to other users of the service. Which is really what we want, when speaking about Smash Bros, Pikmin, etc.
These services require an infrastructure that Nintendo refuses to invest in. And their hardware is not designed to handle. The bandwidth of the WiiU available for downloading from the Internet speaks to this.
If there is a policy, it's a policy of "sell what has sold in the past". Which leads to stagnation and customer disenchantment.
You may argue the controls for the Wii were revolutionary. And I agree. But in the end, the controls are just tools to interact with the software. Sticking new controls on old software is still old software.
The troubling thing is Nintendo KNOWS they don't innovate with software. They admit they need 3rd parties to do what they refuse/don't know how to do.
All of this leads me to believe that Nintendo should have went with EA and Origin as the service provider on the WiiU because then we would have seen at least some conversation that recognizes the importance of services as a foundation for the games we play.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: UncleBob on December 28, 2012, 01:22:53 PM
Nintendo has to fall back on what sells. They don't have giant war chests and huge movie and PC divisions to fall back on.
Remember a short while ago when Nintendo games weren't selling and everyone predicted it was the end of Nintendo and their stocks fell by seventy bazillion percent?
Meanwhile, Sony's gaming division has been tanking, yet no one really talks about the end of Sony and their stock price isn't something that comes up for going down often.
Nintendo relies on what sells because it is what keeps them going. Period.
And heck, if 26 million customers bought and played New Super Mario Bros. Wii - and New Super Mario Bros. 2 and U are still some of the top selling titles, then Nintendo's doing it right. Instead of trying to tell the market what the market should buy, they're giving the market what they obviously want.
Sure, there's a sub-niche market for gamers who want "new" games *and* actually bought Nintendo consoles. But Nintendo can't survive on those 7 people alone.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: azeke on December 28, 2012, 01:26:47 PM
Touting "new IP" as a synonym or replacement for a good gameplay is some seriously messed up priorities.
Game doesn't automatically become better because the name of main character is unknown.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: MegaByte on December 28, 2012, 01:28:03 PM
Meanwhile, Sony's gaming division has been tanking, yet no one really talks about the end of Sony and their stock price isn't something that comes up for going down often.
People talk about the end of Sony all the time. The entire company is tanking, and games were one of the things that was actually positive until the PS3.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: SixthAngel on December 28, 2012, 01:50:51 PM
The services provide a platform from which customers have an experience that makes them feel more connected to other users of the service. Which is really what we want, when speaking about Smash Bros, Pikmin, etc.
We do? And download speeds say more about feeling connected to other users than the Miiverse?
The troubling thing is Nintendo KNOWS they don't innovate with software.
Let's forget about Miis, something that has been copied by every other console manufacturer and the whole Miiverse for WiiU. Nintendo innovates with its games all the time but people don't pay attention. I'm not going to list all the games last gen for DS and Wii that brought new things to the table. In other games Nintendo slaps Mario or a well known character onto the idea to make it sell. That doesn't make the idea disappear or make it any less innovative, it gives it a new wrapper.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Khushrenada on December 28, 2012, 01:54:00 PM
If the topic is on whether Nintendo seems to be slowing down on new IP's, then yes, I'll agree to that to a point. There have been some new potential franchises thrown out there. But they've either had only one or two games and can't really count as a franchise yet and or haven't been promoted heavily as possible new continuing franchise.
If the topic is on whether Nintendo has shown less innovation or creativity since the N64, then I would say a definite no to that. Are there areas where they could have tried to make a new IP instead of putting an idea into an existing franchise? I would say so. The first thing that pops in my head is Kirby's Epic Yarn. Just played this game over the holiday and I think it is the best platformer on the Wii so far (although I still have to play DKCR and SMG2 so that could change) and as much as I admire and praise this game, it didn't quite feel like a Kirby game to me and I think the biggest reason is that Kirby couldn't float around endlessly which to me is what separates a Kirby platformer from any other more than the copying ability. It wasn't until the end of the game that it really seemed to revel in its Kirby identity.
But Kirby's done many other different types of gameplay that I'm not going to get too hung up about it. I'm just noting that I had a weird disconnect of really enjoying it and yet feeling the game was off because it was a bit different from the regular Kirby experience.
Anyways, off that side point and back to the main topic I see many areas where Nintendo could develop things into franchise if they wanted but just haven't yet or may not for whatever reason.
Chibi-Robo - I own both games and love this franchise. There is a 3rd game made for the DS but Nintendo has decided not to release it to North America. I do admit that it might help if this game had a bit more polish/finesse to it as the games that have been released have been fine but the worlds/graphics feel like they're stuck in the 64 era.
Elite Beat Agents - This would be a great franchise to use to experiment with different music/rhythm games. Think of using these characters as a game built around a Bongo attachment or maracas attachment or karokee game. It could be used as a franchise for introducing new music/rhythm styles to play. It may only need one release per console/handheld but it could be established as Nintendo's go-to franchise for music/rhythm gameplay and experimentation.
Rhythm Heaven - On that same note, we've seen a Rhythm Heaven game released on the DS and the Wii. But they've both come near the end of those devices life cycles so sales might not be that high. It also gets lumped together with the Warioware franchise in the way this game is presented and works. Right now, it could be considered a potential franchise but will Nintendo bother to keep making them or would it be worth trying to expand the Elite Beat Agent brand instead and toss some of these ideas into the WarioWare franchise instead?
WarioWare - Speaking of new franchises, this could probably be considered the biggest one to come out out of the post-64 era. Excluding the Gamecube version which was basically a GBA port and any of the digitial games released, there have been 5 retail releases under this franchise and possibly one for the Wii U upcoming if Game & Wario is supposed to be a part of it. I can't think of any or other potential franchise that comes close to the support this series has got which is really interesting considering I never really hear this game come up much in conversation or for people requesting a new iteration yet it obviously seems to be selling.
Drill Dozer - This was a fine enough game. I enjoyed it while I played it and completed it but have never gone back to it after finishing it like 5 years ago. Don't really know if this could be developed further or not but it is a new IP that is all the rage.
Advance Wars - Alright. Just thought of something close to Warioware's amount of releases, Advance Wars, if you include Battalion Wars which is variation of this game but with different characters. 2 for the GBA, 2 for the DS and a BW for GC and Wii. However, BW seems to be retired for now but the main Advance Wars brand could still see another release. However, Nintendo did try to shake things up by using brand new characters and a post-apocolyptic setting with the last release. Is it because they don't have much creativity left or don't know where to take this series right now?
And I'm only just getting warmed up.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: UncleBob on December 28, 2012, 02:01:03 PM
Meanwhile, Sony's gaming division has been tanking, yet no one really talks about the end of Sony and their stock price isn't something that comes up for going down often.
People talk about the end of Sony all the time. The entire company is tanking, and games were one of the things that was actually positive until the PS3.
Maybe it's because I tend to pay more attention to Nintendo-based stuff, but I just don't see the "Sony is d00med" articles very often.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Khushrenada on December 28, 2012, 02:28:56 PM
Pikmin - This is the obvious example of a new franchise after the 64 since it debuted right on Gamecube and has a 3rd entry on its way in Wii U. Yet, despite a mostly favorable reception to the past two entries, it hasn't seemed to gain much traction amongst the majority of gamers. Ask if somebody wants a re-release of Earthbound or release of Mother 3 or a new Pikmin entry and I'm sure the Earthbound/Mother3 choices come in first or second. Moreover, when people complain of not getting IP's, they are not complaining that they want a new Pikmin entry, they want something new compared to Pikmin. So, even then, releasing a new Pikmin game isn't going to satisfy the new IP crowd. It will be interesting to see how this next entry performs as that will determine its longterm viability I think.
Nintendogs - Huge DS seller when it was released but this franchise seems washed up when released on the 3DS as no one seems interested in it and I constantly see these games hugely discounted. Part of that is the common Animal Crossing complaint of being the same game again. I think also a Pet Simulator game will always have a limited shelf-life. But there's no reason that this concept couldn't be reinvorgated with a new way to play with and care for puppies and kitties. It might be a drastic change compared to what has been done previously on the last two releases but I could think of some ways to develop this brand more.
Legendary Starfy - Started in 2002 but only one release in North America so far. There was a bit of promotion when the game was released and talk about it being a potential new franchise to keep developing and releasing for but that talk seems to have fizzled out. It does seem to have a Kirby vibe to it in the art style/atmosphere and the gameplay isn't that difficult which may have had a factor in its lukewarm reception.
Luigi's Mansion - Is this considered a new IP or is it because it is Luigi it falls under the Mario brand?
Brain Age - Probably not what is thought of when talking about a new IP but it is and was a bold new idea of what could be done for a game system and helped define a new strategy and new way to get people to think of games for awhile that really defined the next 5 years or so for Nintendo. It's actually getting a 3rd sequel and has had many imitators as well. It counts.
Steel Diver - No seems interested in this game and just dismiss it as a tech demo but it is new.
Wii series - Obviously, this was a huge franchise for the Wii but it remains to be seen whether the Wii brand series of games will continue to have life on the U. Wii Fit is obviously getting a new iteration but after that? But like Brain Age, this isn't the type of thing considered as what people when requesting a new IP.
And what about existing franchises that have been reborn or reignited? Sin and Punishment saw both of it's games released on the Wii, Kid Icarus has come back after a huge abscence, Metroid Prime was a brand new way of how a Metroid game could work and play, Custom Robo and Fire Emblem have seen releases after only being in Japan. Animal Crossing also debuted here on the Gamecube and has continued? What about experiments like Super Princess Peach? Is that still a Mario title? Mario & Luigi RPG's? Is that just lumped in with Mario games or as a whole genre of Mario RPG's even if they are different compared to Paper Mario or the one that started it all Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars? Does a new IP always have to mean a brand new character or can it be a different branch of what you can include a character in?
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Khushrenada on December 28, 2012, 02:50:57 PM
And why does it have to be Nintendo that comes up with the new IP? There are plenty of other new IPs that Nintendo has published from a third party or that third parties have provided:
Professor Layton, Hotel Dusk, No More Heroes, Viewtiful Joe, Super Monkey Ball, Trauma Center, Ace Attorney, Rock Band, Guitar Hero, Epic Mickey, De Blob, Billy Hatcher, Zack & Wiki, Dewy's Adventure, Elebits, The World Ends With You, DQH: Rocket Slime, Meteos, Boom Blox, Cubivore, Rhythym Thief, Henry Hatsworth and others as well. Maybe some of those games aren't that great or only needed one release because that's all that can be done with them. Some have been run into the ground or now dormant but they were all new IPs after the 64.
Why is there never talk of this but only what Nintendo brings? There are plenty of new IPs to experience if people will look for them but why the narrow focus as if Nintendo is doing nothing to expand their frontiers. With the amount they've got, they've started skipping generations before releasing a new iteration of some franchises and yet they need more. Gamers are insatiable.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: ShyGuy on December 28, 2012, 04:33:07 PM
Nintendo has had several games that made an impact on gaming since the N64.
Wind Waker Nintendogs Brain Age Wii Sports Wii Fit
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Luigi Dude on December 28, 2012, 06:25:07 PM
The thing I find funny is how some people ignore new IP's Nintendo makes because they aren't big budget games, but fail to realize most of Nintendo's older IP's started as small budget games as well. I mean really, how is a smaller downloadable 3DS title like Pushmo, really any different then all the new IP's Nintendo made during the 8 and 16 bit era. Hell, in terms of content and size, Pushmo is larger then a lot of Nintendo's 8/16 bit era games.
This is why all the smaller new IP's Nintendo creates shouldn't be ignored in these discussions since Nintendo is still creating a good amount of these with quality that rivals many of their older IP's as well.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: ShyGuy on December 28, 2012, 07:11:36 PM
Every video game publisher would give their left arm to have a fraction of Nintendo's software innovation.
Mario Party and WarioWare are extremely innovative in their own right, creating new genres and spawning imitators.
Super Paper Mario had that amazing 2D switch to 3D functionality.
People need to start ripping off Luigi's Mansion, great new form of gameplay.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on December 28, 2012, 08:21:03 PM
My short answer would be no. Nintendo games (even those which are largely iterative) absolutely burst with creativity.
There are of course a few series' which, for me, have become stale or lost some their potency. New Super Mario Bros., Animal Crossing, Nintendogs and Pokemon in particular. However, while new instalments in those series' may not be revolutionary they do continue to introduce clever ideas and exhibit creativity.
I would love to see Nintendo become less beholden to their heritage, but that's not to say that they're not an imaginative company. They most certainly are.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: UncleBob on December 28, 2012, 11:26:16 PM
Every video game publisher would give their left arm to have a fraction of Nintendo's software innovation.
Mario Party and WarioWare are extremely innovative in their own right, creating new genres and spawning imitators.
Super Paper Mario had that amazing 2D switch to 3D functionality.
People need to start ripping off Luigi's Mansion, great new form of gameplay.
But those are all based off the Mario IP, so they don't count, hurrr hurrr...
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: ShyGuy on December 28, 2012, 11:37:33 PM
Mario is a Donkey Kong spinoff!
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Stratos on December 29, 2012, 12:02:00 AM
You guys do make a lot of excellent points and pull up a number of titles I had forgotten about. Also the fact a lot of Nintendo's title's do branch out into unique 'sub-IPs' such as Luigi's Mansion and Warioware does muddy the matter of 'What constitutes a new IP?'
I would say more of my concern is in their support of these 'newer titles'. They seem more lax and unconcerned about them. New IPs on Wiiware? GREAT! Why didn't I know about it? Why did I not feel compelled to check it out? Why do we not see newer iterations of these 'newer' games? I'm not saying Nintendo isn't creative when if comes to new software. I feel they have purposely turned off the flow of their creative juices when it comes to new projects.
They toss out one or two things with limited support while shoving a near overload of their other series to the point of near burnout. Support the smaller titles. Cultivate them. I'd like to see games that can join the ranks of Mario, Zelda and Pokemon as Big Titles. Those games had humble beginnings, but they grew. I don't see the games in those infant positions growing under Nintendo's care.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Khushrenada on December 29, 2012, 02:56:44 AM
Can't believe I forgot about Pushmo/Crashmo IP.
Pixpix (I trademark that nickname by the way so if you be imitating you have to pay) brings up a good point about Nintendo being lessen holden to their heritage. Sometimes it seems like they have to cram in references and nods to so many things that have come before that it leaves one feeling as though the developers weren't really trying. A few months ago, I played New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Finally got around to it and while I enjoyed it and it was a fine game, I frankly dislike how stuck the game seems to be in trying to play off my Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World knowledge and referencing them.
Sure, I think there should be certain staples that make up a traditional Mario game. Goombas, Koopas, Pirahna plants, Bullet Bills and Boo Buddies. But you can throw in some brand new bad guys as well. One of the things that endears me to Super Mario World is Chargin' Chuck. Just out of no where, you come upon a football player. One instance, he throws baseballs at you. Later, he's tossing footballs. When you bounce on him, he charges after you. It's just kind of random but I like that. MB3 and SMW threw all manners of characters at you and most have stuck and some haven't but it just seems that instead of showing new baddies, Mario games just want to show off and copy what came before with a few new twists in level design thrown at you. I do wish they would be a bit more fearless in aspects like that. Creating new enemies could lead to new gameplay ideas also.
As for Nintendo not supporting or cultivating their newer IPs, I think it goes back to sales as others have pointed out also. I don't know what the actual numbers are but I'm just making an example that if the first Pikmin game sells 1.5 million copies and the sequel sells 1.25 million or just barely sells higher than the first and Super Mario Sunshine sells 5 million copies, what would you do? Keep cultivating Pikmin in the hopes it grows as big as Mario games? If one Mario game can sell more than 2 Pikmin games combined, is that a smart use of your division of labour? Wouldn't it make sense to release more Mario games or put more talent on those? How do you justify developing more of the titles that don't sell as much compared to developing more that will?
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: lolmonade on December 29, 2012, 09:40:20 AM
Did they turn off their creative juices after Nintendo 64?
No, and anyone who would claim otherwise is guilty of not paying attention or being willfully ignorant.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: broodwars on December 29, 2012, 11:34:09 AM
I don't think Nintendo turned off their creative juices after the N64. I think they turned them off after the GameCube, when they saw that the masses will buy lazy **** so long as they can shake a remote control to play it. :(
I want to see a major new franchise from Nintendo, not some little pet project they sneak onto the eShop and kind of ignore (as delightful as those projects can be at times). I'm tired of seeing the same 3-5 ancient franchises being Nintendo's major releases every year. Most of all, though, I'm sick of the nostalgia pandering in their existing franchises. The 80s and 90s had their moments, but they're done and it's LONG past time that Nintendo gave thought to making new installments of their franchises that don't just endlessly reference an era that's increasingly irrelevant and tiresome. Make new characters. Design new scenarios. Don't just throw in the same damn chiptune music and "retro" art to remind me of when I played the original games on the NES, because I'm done caring about what Nintendo had when I was a kid. I want to see what Nintendo has now.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: MegaByte on December 29, 2012, 12:18:17 PM
Sure, I think there should be certain staples that make up a traditional Mario game. Goombas, Koopas, Pirahna plants, Bullet Bills and Boo Buddies. But you can throw in some brand new bad guys as well. One of the things that endears me to Super Mario World is Chargin' Chuck. Just out of no where, you come upon a football player. One instance, he throws baseballs at you. Later, he's tossing footballs. When you bounce on him, he charges after you. It's just kind of random but I like that. MB3 and SMW threw all manners of characters at you and most have stuck and some haven't but it just seems that instead of showing new baddies, Mario games just want to show off and copy what came before with a few new twists in level design thrown at you. I do wish they would be a bit more fearless in aspects like that. Creating new enemies could lead to new gameplay ideas also.
I guess you haven't played New Super Mario Bros. U.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: ThePerm on December 29, 2012, 02:10:51 PM
Why does Nintendo have to come up with a new IP?
Diminishing returns. Freshness The Limitations of their IPs Variety Exclusivity
Their current IP's have been stretched for 6 generations. Zelda nad MArio while still selling well are not as popular as they were before.
Nintendo gets a reputation for not expanding what they make. They get ragged on for just making mario.
They can only modify Zelda, Mario so much. Metroid has room for change though.
Variety is good. The more franchises they have the more different experiences we can have.
Exclusivity is the biggest thing. Nintendo can't rely on third parties to give them franchises. Many times 3rd parties will just hold them from Nintendo with the dumbest excuses. The biggest complaint of the Gamecube generation was 3rd parties didnt like to compete with Nintendo on Nintendo's system. Nintendo stepped back for Wii and then they found a whole new set of complaints. If Nintendo were just to expand their franchises then they wouldnt have this issue. Nintendo can either make new franchises, buy franchises, or obtain exclusivity. Nintendo has never been big on exclusivity like Sony or Microsoft has. I'm still hoping that oen day Nintendo will buy Sega. Its hard to say. Nintendo should have a good year next year, where the prognosis of Sega is not as good.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Khushrenada on December 29, 2012, 03:24:24 PM
Sure, I think there should be certain staples that make up a traditional Mario game. Goombas, Koopas, Pirahna plants, Bullet Bills and Boo Buddies. But you can throw in some brand new bad guys as well. One of the things that endears me to Super Mario World is Chargin' Chuck. Just out of no where, you come upon a football player. One instance, he throws baseballs at you. Later, he's tossing footballs. When you bounce on him, he charges after you. It's just kind of random but I like that. MB3 and SMW threw all manners of characters at you and most have stuck and some haven't but it just seems that instead of showing new baddies, Mario games just want to show off and copy what came before with a few new twists in level design thrown at you. I do wish they would be a bit more fearless in aspects like that. Creating new enemies could lead to new gameplay ideas also.
I guess you haven't played New Super Mario Bros. U.
Nope. Don't own a Wii U yet. Why? Do they bring back Chargin' Chuck or do they have a whole whack of brand new enemies?
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Mop it up on December 29, 2012, 04:00:40 PM
I don't think the problem is that Nintendo are less creative or release less IP; I'm surprised Luigi Dude didn't post his list of Nintendo's new IP games over the last ten years, it's surprisingly large. The problem is that in most cases Nintendo don't really push the new IP. The easiest examples are The Last Story and Pandora's Tower, and maybe Xenoblade if that counts, which people had to try and fight to get released. Beyond that, there are several that never left Japan, and many more that went unadvertised.
Sometimes it feels like there are two sides to Nintendo, the creative side, and the business side. The creative side gets us the new IP games and the expertly-crafted games like Super Mario Galaxy, and the business side gets us the stagnant sure-fire hit product like New Super Mario Brothers 2 and Mario Kart VII. It would also seem that the more money Nintendo make, the more conservative they become, releasing less of the smaller titles outside Japan and sticking with the big hits.
Now I know that Nintendo needs business sense to stay in business, and so I can understand some of the decisions they've made, especially when facing an unprofitable year. But I think they can do a better job of balancing the two sides, and finding a way to make profit on smaller niché games or pushing certain new IP to become larger games. They've done this at times in the past, and they've done it even recently, with hits like Brain Age and Nintendogs. So I hope they can further improve in the future.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on December 29, 2012, 04:38:42 PM
The easiest examples are The Last Story and Pandora's Tower, and maybe Xenoblade if that counts, which people had to try and fight to get released. Beyond that, there are several that never left Japan, and many more that went unadvertised.
That's a very salient point. Nintendo have published a number of titles in recent years which have contained innovative and novel ideas, the difficulty is that they're failing miserably to promote these games.
In recent days, for instance, we've seen a swath of Game of the Year awards and while it's true that most Nintendo releases this year have failed to make much of an impact, we have still seen several titles which more than deserved consideration. There were very few 'Best Downloadable' nominations for Crashmo or Spin Cycle (which is perhaps understandable in the case of the latter given the time of year at which they chose to released it), not as many 'Best Story' or 'Best RPG' nods for Xenoblade as I would have expected, and Beat the Beat (a phenomenal game) also appears to have been largely ignored by the multi-console sites.
There is a degree to which Nintendo have fallen in to a rut with certain series', but their meek approach to promoting those games which are adroit and interesting is what really creates this impression that they're not as creative as they used to be.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: negative_zero on December 29, 2012, 04:43:08 PM
I'm not sure if we will ever again see a big new franchise from Nintendo at the level of Mario / Zelda / etc. I think the reason for this is a bit simpler than it might seem: Nintendo's biggest / best teams are ALWAYS working on those franchises, they have no time for anything else.
On the other hand, through 2nd parties and acquisitions... maybe? Xenoblade is huge and amazing and technically a Nintendo game.
For smaller stuff, certainly. I love Pikmin, it's one of my favorite franchises. Pushmo is one of the best digital games I've played. Etc.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: ShyGuy on December 29, 2012, 04:58:21 PM
I'm totally stealing Pix Pix.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on December 29, 2012, 05:19:15 PM
Well, I can only give you and everyone else my personal approval as the person after which the 'PixPix' nickname was coined, but it is ultimately the decision of the owner of the trademark (in this case Khushrenada (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=8310)) as to whether or not you receive official approval.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: MegaByte on December 29, 2012, 05:34:47 PM
Nope. Don't own a Wii U yet. Why? Do they bring back Chargin' Chuck or do they have a whole whack of brand new enemies?
They have a bunch of new enemies. Not like the difference between SMB3 and SMW, though there are more enemies overall.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: negative_zero on December 29, 2012, 05:47:37 PM
I'm sure NSMB U does have a bunch of new enemies, but they don't seem as... iconic? The only one I can think of off of the top of my head is the squirrel.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on December 29, 2012, 06:23:03 PM
These things aren't "iconic" overnight. Comparing things that have been out for 20 years and have become iconic to something that just came out isn't fair to the ones without nostalgia on their side.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: UncleBob on December 29, 2012, 06:30:31 PM
Am I the only one amused by the fact that Nintendo gets crap for needing to be more like they were twenty years ago while getting crap for being too much like they were twenty years ago?
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: ShyGuy on December 29, 2012, 06:59:29 PM
Am I the only one amused by the fact that Nintendo gets crap for needing to be more like they were twenty years ago while getting crap for being too much like they were twenty years ago?
I think the real answer was people wish they were the kind of gamers they were twenty years ago.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on December 29, 2012, 07:18:16 PM
Am I the only one amused by the fact that Nintendo gets crap for needing to be more like they were twenty years ago while getting crap for being too much like they were twenty years ago?
That's kind of skewing the argument though don't you think? Those people who argue that Nintendo should be more like they were 20 years ago are in fact saying that they wish Nintendo would be more original and less referential. If anything, what they're saying is that if Nintendo developed games today in the manner in which they did during the 8 and 16 bit era they would be moving further away from what they did 20 years ago rather than constantly referring to it.
Not that I necessarily agree with that argument, but that's been my understanding of it.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: UncleBob on December 29, 2012, 07:50:26 PM
Well, during the 8-bit era, you'd have a point (except for the idea that Nintendo couldn't rely on their past ideas as much, though it didn't really stop them from porting in their arcade titles and rehashing them on the NES and the other way around). But the 16-Bit era? Come on! Super Mario Kart? Super Mario RPG? Mario Paint? Super Mario All-Stars? Yoshi, Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Safari, Yoshi's Cookie? Super Metroid? Zelda 3? Donkey Kong Country trilogy? Kirby, Kirby, Kirby?
Anyone who thinks Nintendo didn't run their franchises into the ground during the SNES era either has their head in the ground or was too sidetracked playing all the great SNES games to notice.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on December 29, 2012, 08:15:41 PM
I agree. Hence why I don't agree with the argument that Nintendo have lost their creativity. As far as I can see they're as creative as they've always been.
The point I was trying to make is that the people who want Nintendo to develop games like they did 20 years ago (even if that desire is based on a false assumption) are in fact asking for Nintendo to do new things. I don't see anyone calling out for Nintendo to literally be more like they were 20 years ago. That would just be silly. That's why I think your point (which I'm sure was said somewhat jokingly, but which I have seen numerous times) is a misnomer.
To my mind there's no contradiction between wanting Nintendo to design and promote original concepts while at the same time giving them crap for trotting out rehashes of old games. I wouldn't have anything to say about Nintendo otherwise, lol. ;D
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: TJ Spyke on December 29, 2012, 08:39:25 PM
Game developers have said said the same thing. When they change a series, the fans bitch that they want it to stay the same. When they release a game that is the same, fans bitch they want something new.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on December 29, 2012, 09:02:22 PM
I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people are impossible to please when it comes to Nintendo. Not necessarily referring to people in this thread, but I think some people have this nostalgic idea in their head about how Nintendo used to be that was never true. Nintendo hasn't changed; gamers have.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: MegaByte on December 29, 2012, 09:09:14 PM
It's worth mentioning that most of the new franchises that aren't getting much Nintendo love have been by subsidiaries or second parties. So, it's a marketing priority problem as much as it is a development priority problem.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Shaymin on December 29, 2012, 09:44:28 PM
I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people are impossible to please when it comes to Nintendo. Not necessarily referring to people in this thread, but I think some people have this nostalgic idea in their head about how Nintendo used to be that was never true. Nintendo hasn't changed; gamers have.
So would you say that they're insatiable?
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: ShyGuy on December 29, 2012, 11:27:01 PM
I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people are impossible to please when it comes to Nintendo. Not necessarily referring to people in this thread, but I think some people have this nostalgic idea in their head about how Nintendo used to be that was never true. Nintendo hasn't changed; gamers have.
It's worth mentioning that most of the new franchises that aren't getting much Nintendo love have been by subsidiaries or second parties. So, it's a marketing priority problem as much as it is a development priority problem.
This. While I still haven't opened my copy of Xenoblade (bought it a week before Wii U, d'oh!) I keep hearing everyone here talk about it as this amazing game that every wii owner should at least try; and that's exactly why I bought it. Where were the ads though? They can't simply rely on word of mouth, Nintendo needs to at least try to advertise these games. If Sony can get away with that abysmal Play Station All-Stars ad, what is Nintendo's excuse?
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: TJ Spyke on December 30, 2012, 02:09:54 PM
I saw a LOT of TV commercials for Xenoblade back in April, maybe you just didn't watch the right channels.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: EasyCure on December 30, 2012, 02:18:03 PM
I barely saw any for Skyward Sword and at least I know it was promoted. I guess I just watch less tv than I thought? Still, if I saw ads for Skyward Sword on the few channels I do watch, I would've seen some for Xenoblade as well, but I didn't. If it weren't for NWR, I wouldn't of known about the game.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Khushrenada on December 30, 2012, 05:07:47 PM
Well, I can only give you and everyone else my personal approval as the person after which the 'PixPix' nickname was coined, but it is ultimately the decision of the owner of the trademark (in this case Khushrenada (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=8310)) as to whether or not you receive official approval.
Ha ha. Well, since mods have already seen fit to change Pixpix's title, I guess you can use it. Just add the little tm after it so everyone knows its trademarked. You don't have to.
These things aren't "iconic" overnight. Comparing things that have been out for 20 years and have become iconic to something that just came out isn't fair to the ones without nostalgia on their side.
Exactly. Sure it can happen that a certain baddy can capture people's imagination right away but most need to time to make people familiar with them. It just seems that sometimes the focus is more on the ones that have been around for 20 years at the expense of new creations. Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing the lums in SMG popping up in Mario games as well. Especially at the end when they do these star road type levels. That's how these things become nostalgic/iconic.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Ian Sane on January 03, 2013, 03:12:13 PM
When I say I want "new IPs" what I really want is a new gameplay experiences. Creating a new IP is just an easier way to do it. If Nintendo makes a Mario game they're going to naturally be influenced by the existing tropes of the franchise. But if it's a new IP there are no preconcieved notions in the minds of both the players and developers. This allows for more freedom in game design. Insisting that Mario be in everything just restricts creativity. Plus I do like some novelty in new characters and settings.
I think part of why Nintendo appeared to turn off the creative juices after the N64 era was partially because it was no longer easy. They got a lot of mileage out of turning their franchises from 2D to 3D and during the SNES era many of the franchises were still new enough that simply refining and polishing the concept was enough for the sequel to be vastly different and often superior. On the Cube the updates were not so obvious but I think they tried really hard with games like Wind Waker and Super Mario Sunshine to be creative; the results just were not that great.
There was turnover of leadership in both NCL and NOA during the Gamecube era and I think that's the prime cause of it. I find the earlier years of the Cube to be superior to the later years as the more creative Cube titles would have been started on while Yamauchi was still in charge. Though it is strange that Miyamoto, who was Nintendo's most creative developer, is so in favour of being cookie cutter. He's probably just gotten old. I've thought of the possibility that Miyamoto's goal was always just to refine his games until they reached a point where the formula was perfected and thus could be rehashed in perpetuity. But then after polishing 2D Mario with Super Mario World he did Yoshi's Island and Super Mario 64, both of which are very original. We didn't get another conventional Mario sidescroller until NSMB. If his goal was merely to polish and then rehash why wait so long? Something changed.
For me it's lots of little things. A good example is that Paper Mario is so different from Super Mario RPG. I love Super Mario RPG but it was so cool that Nintendo's next Mario RPG was such a different and unique game. Then later we got Paper Mario 2. Yeah, that's game's still really good but it's really just More Paper Mario. So do I really need to play it if I've played the original? No, but any Nintendo fan damn sure needed to play Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario because of the unique gameplay experiences they provided.
And that's what I'm not interested in anymore: unessential Nintendo games. I don't need to play any more NSMB games because there is nothing truly new or interesting in them anymore. NSMB and NSMB Wii were not bad games at all but they offered virtually nothing that Super Mario World had not already done over 20 years ago. At least with a new IP, and one that is positioned as some major title, a dev like EAD is FORCED to make something essential because a new IP with generic gameplay would get nowhere. And it is important for Nintendo's future survival. Eventually the whole world will get sick of Mario and Zelda and if they have nothing to replace them, Nintendo will die.
But I think that different Nintendo fans expect or want different things and thus we have somewhat of a split fanbase. In their heyday Nintendo games were known for being creative and of high quality. For me it was both elements that made me a fan. However Nintendo's games are still typically of high quality so if that is why you're a Nintendo fan then you really have no reason to be upset with their current output. NSMB games are still good and if you're just looking for quality then you're fine.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: EasyCure on January 03, 2013, 05:15:03 PM
i read that exact post in another thread, talkback i think. Ian, you're getting lazy. Your post used to be valid, when gaming jumped from dual sucks to waggle, now they just don't cut it. All your post are cookie cutter sequels. And this anger towards nintendo, its all a gimmick! I used to be a fan, because you've made some valid points, but these days all we get are ports and sequels if your own post, rehashed with new buzzwords because you think you'll fool rubes who just joined the forums, but you've between releasing the same stuff since planet gamecube!
and that's what I'm not interested in anymore, unessential forum post. I don't need to read another NSMB game thread because I've read all those post before; there is nothing truly new it exciting in your rants. Yeah, they may be longer than they used to, but the story never changes, its just padding.
;-)
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 03, 2013, 05:31:01 PM
Brilliant, lol.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: EasyCure on January 03, 2013, 05:40:39 PM
thanks, I decided i needed to make a funny post before someone chews my head off for not finding ricky gervais funny in the Simpsons thread :-P i know humor dammit! lol
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Caterkiller on January 03, 2013, 06:32:25 PM
Hahahahaahahah!
Oh oh, now do Broodwars!
I do agree that since the GameCube, Nintendo has had a harder time with coming up with creative ideas. At the same time there are multiple generations of people that have grown up after the N64 era that more or less need a title like NSMB DS. 3D Mario continues the quest for daring new ideas with more of a challenge so I feel we get exactly want. As much as I would love it, every 2D Mario cant be a Yoshi's island, its just too complicated for newer people to get involved. I honestly think the "cookie cutter sequel" is necessary for the dual Mario audience.
Now I personally don't veiw the NSMB series as cookie cutter sequels and /or mediocre except for the DS one, I had a great time with the other 3. Even still, new enemies, locations and themes were done with Sunshine and I remember in those days every character but Petey Piranah was shunned for the tried and true.
We got Sunshine, Pikmin, Jungle Beat and Prime last gen and Galaxy, Epic Yarn, DK Returns and Skyward sword this gen to name a few. I think these games are plenty creative but sometimes the tried and true and not too complocated titles that sell to the masses have to be made.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: broodwars on January 03, 2013, 07:18:50 PM
Hey now, don't lump me in with Ian there. I haven't done an epicly-long rant on the forums in ages. You know, I'm generally content to say my piece and move on, yet for some reason people just seem to insist on dragging me back in with you lot. Very well then...
;)
Have I mentioned I have a podcast now, from which I can utterly abuse my position as a panelist and demean people who cross me for minutes at a time? Just sayin'. :P: : : (yes, j/k)
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Caterkiller on January 03, 2013, 09:19:56 PM
Link me to this podcast.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Shaymin on January 03, 2013, 09:28:26 PM
Ask and ye shall receive. (http://nintendofreeradio.podbean.com)
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: EasyCure on January 03, 2013, 10:24:50 PM
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Khushrenada on January 04, 2013, 01:27:59 AM
Oh good. This thread continued. There were a few more points I wanted to respond to but I didn't want to double post and keep feeling like I'm taking over the conversation. Anyways, first to this point:
Well, during the 8-bit era, you'd have a point (except for the idea that Nintendo couldn't rely on their past ideas as much, though it didn't really stop them from porting in their arcade titles and rehashing them on the NES and the other way around). But the 16-Bit era? Come on! Super Mario Kart? Super Mario RPG? Mario Paint? Super Mario All-Stars? Yoshi, Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Safari, Yoshi's Cookie? Super Metroid? Zelda 3? Donkey Kong Country trilogy? Kirby, Kirby, Kirby?
Anyone who thinks Nintendo didn't run their franchises into the ground during the SNES era either has their head in the ground or was too sidetracked playing all the great SNES games to notice.
Yes, they did release a lot of games under a character's name put most of those games were different from each other and stood on their own except for the Donkey Kong trilogy. All 4 Kirby games were different from each other. None is a sequel of the other. Yoshi wasn't released on the SNES. Just the NES and Gameboy. The other games were all unique and Yoshi's Safari was to help sell the SuperScope attachment and the general attitude is you have to have a Mario Game at launch to succeed. Moreover, gaming was still growing. I never owned an NES growing up. I had a couple friends who owned one and I experienced a few hours here and there playing it but I hardly logged on that much time. The first system my parents bought was the SNES so everything on it was new. So, if I found Super Mario World amazing and I saw another game with Mario called Super Mario Kart, I was going to rent it and try it. And if I was blown away by the graphics and gameplay of Super Mario Kart, I'm going to try this Super Mario All-Stars. What? Not only does it have Super Mario Bros., one of the few Mario games I played on the NES, it also has 3 others? This is incredible. They're making a Super Mario World 2? No way. I'm so getting that. And so on and so on. Having a character in multiple games isn't a bad thing since it helps people who are new to gaming maybe try something they might not have without that name/facial recognition. It's a necessary part of the business. But, at least it seemed more of an effort was made in each sequel to differentiate it.
I know everyone and their dog has gone on about the NSMB franchise being cookie cutter. But it's the fastest way to illustrate the point. At the end of a Super Mario Bros. level, you generally jump on a flagpole. At the end of a Super Mario Bros. 3 level, you enter black space and jump to hit a flashing card. At the end of a Super Mario World level, you try to hit a moving goalpost bar. At the end of a Super Mario World 2 level, you jump through a hoop of flowers.
At the end of a New Super Mario Bros. level, you jump onto a flagpole. Ha! That's great! I hadn't seen a Mario level end like that since the original. Well it is "NEW" Super Mario Bros. What a fun little throw back. At the end of a New Super Mario Bros Wii, New Super Mario Bros 2, New Super Mario Bros Wii U, and Super Mario Land 3D level, you end it by jumping on a flagpole. Seriously?! 4 more games later and you haven't thought of a single new idea to signify the end of a level? You couldn't even bother to reference another games ending even at this point? Is it always going to be flagpoles from now? There's not a single designer in the whole company that can think of a simple new little twist to end a level? That's the problem I have with the NSMB series. I don't mind a reference to a past game IF IT HASN'T BEEN DONE IN AWHILE. But when it just becomes the standard and there seems to be no interest in trying something new, then it just leaves a stale feeling and you begin to stop caring about the franchise. Sure, the ending of levels was just a simple way to signify the end and you could gain a few more points to your score with some timing or earn extra lives or earn the chance to play a game to get more lives. But at least in the NES and SNES era's, Nintendo took the time to make it a little different. There was no standard ending procedure. Suddenly, it is the only way a Mario level can end. Why? You can argue that it was the flagpole since it was used in the first game and The Lost Levels but those games were the first and if it was to be the standard, why change it on all later games and not bring it back until nearly 20 years later?
That is the clearest way I can illustrate the difference between Nintendo sequels now and from the past. Even if the New Super Mario Bros. series is throwing in new elements like multiplayer and rotating surfaces or gold rush challenges, by trying to keep the games so consistent to each other, it just gives the impression that the effort isn't there. Say what you will about the amount of Mario Games from 1985 - 1996, there's no denying each one looked different and it's very easy to look at a screenshot from one of those games and know which one it came from. The appearance/effort looks to be there in making something new based off the tried and true gameplay already experienced.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Khushrenada on January 04, 2013, 01:29:17 AM
In regards to Easycure, I agree with him about lack of advertising. When Wii was hot in the first couple years, I always saw plenty of ads for it. Feels like years since I've seen any Nintendo ad on TV now.
When I say I want "new IPs" what I really want is a new gameplay experiences. Creating a new IP is just an easier way to do it. If Nintendo makes a Mario game they're going to naturally be influenced by the existing tropes of the franchise. But if it's a new IP there are no preconcieved notions in the minds of both the players and developers. This allows for more freedom in game design. Insisting that Mario be in everything just restricts creativity. Plus I do like some novelty in new characters and settings.
That is probably the best explaination I've seen someone give in why they want to see new IP's even if sequels are good.
Although I do disagree with another statement about not wanting unessential sequels. Paper Mario 64 and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door may be very close in gameplay and how they unfold. Even some of the helpers and abilities seem to just be carried over. But would you really want to play Paper Mario 64 say 5 or 6 times over or would you rather play it 3 times over and another game very similar but with new locales and story and twists a couple times over also? I would choose the latter. Otherwise, I would tire of the experience of the former and become indifferent to it.
That's pretty much what has happened to me and most of the early Mario platformers. I've beaten Super Mario World so much, I honestly don't care if I lost my cartridge of the game. I've no need to go back to it. A cousin of mine bought a SNES a year ago and hadn't played the game before. So we took turns playing levels after one person died but it soon just become me zipping through the game and taking the Star Road over to Bowser and beating the game. He didn't mind and liked the fact I showed him all these secrets early on. I hadn't played the game in maybe 5 years before that, yet there was no rust at all when I played it. It's just too ingrained in me. But I think that's why sequels are also necessary even if they don't cover that much new ground.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: UncleBob on January 04, 2013, 07:58:33 AM
Yes, they did release a lot of games under a character's name put most of those games were different from each other and stood on their own except for the Donkey Kong trilogy. [...] Having a character in multiple games isn't a bad thing since it helps people who are new to gaming maybe try something they might not have without that name/facial recognition. It's a necessary part of the business. But, at least it seemed more of an effort was made in each sequel to differentiate it.
See, that's the thing - some folks keep screaming "New IP" like it means something. Ian nailed it on the head though, these people don't want a new IP, they want new game play. Though I wonder how many people saw Mario Hoops and blew it off as another Mario sports title. Anyway, those are all examples of using existing IPs and franchises in new and different ways.
I think what people seem to forget is that when Miyamoto created Mr. Video, he planned to use him as a generic character in all of his games. From the beginning, Miyamoto was less concerned with the "face" of the game and put his effort into the gameplay.
This is the foundation on which Nintendo's game making philosophy is built on.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: UncleBob on January 04, 2013, 12:45:49 PM
And... I totally forgot. Re: Flagpole jumping. Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Mario Vs. say "Hi".
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Ian Sane on January 04, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
I do agree that since the GameCube, Nintendo has had a harder time with coming up with creative ideas. At the same time there are multiple generations of people that have grown up after the N64 era that more or less need a title like NSMB DS. 3D Mario continues the quest for daring new ideas with more of a challenge so I feel we get exactly want. As much as I would love it, every 2D Mario cant be a Yoshi's island, its just too complicated for newer people to get involved. I honestly think the "cookie cutter sequel" is necessary for the dual Mario audience.
This is a really good point. Though if you're a Mario newcomer and need to start on the simpler gameplay SMB3 and SMW are right there on the Virtual Console. It isn't like the old games are out-of-print and NSMB is necessary for any sort of retro Mario gameplay to be available on a current system. But then kids tend to think that old stuff is lame. So I see the obvious business purpose here: the younger generation would enjoy the classic Mario gameplay but is not likely going to be interested in some 20 year old title so you make new games that stick very close to that same formula. A bonus aspect of it is that older gamers that are familiar with the old titles are more likely to buy a new formulaic title over a re-release of a game they already had.
However what Ninendo really needs to focus on for longterm survival is to create the "next Mario". My younger brother was in elementary school when Pokemon came out and the kids talked about it on the schoolyard like we talked about Mario when I was that age. Nintendo had found the "next Mario", the big game franchise that is a major part of kids culture. Today Angry Birds is the "current Mario". That's the game the every kid is nuts over and they'll be talking about it nostalgically when they're adults.
I like NSMB Wii despite its very safe design. But I already owned a Wii so, yeah, why not get this game that is still good and still fun? I realized my real lack of interest in the Wii U when Nintendo was pushing NSMB U as the reason for me to buy the system and I just don't see the point. Yeah, that game's probably great but I'm going to buy a whole new system for a game that offers little beyond what games from 20 years ago were already doing?
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Khushrenada on January 04, 2013, 04:14:34 PM
And... I totally forgot. Re: Flagpole jumping. Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Mario Vs. say "Hi".
As I said in my post:
Quote
You can argue that it was the flagpole since it was used in the first game and The Lost Levels but those games were the first and if it was to be the standard, why change it on all later games and not bring it back until nearly 20 years later?
And Super Mario Bros. 2, had doors and bird mouths to go through instead in North America. Lost levels which wasn't released in N/A until All-Stars wouldn't have made an impact on player's minds that this is how levels must end. I never realized it was the original sequel to SMB until years later. I just thought it was stuff taken out of the original game. I was a kid and it was called Lost Levels. Super Mario VS. is just an arcade version blending both of those games together. Hard to call that an original game. In any case, the point still stands that using flagpoles as an ending to a level stopped in 1986 when those two games were made and then Nintendo started using new ideas until 20 years later and now that's all that is used.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: EasyCure on January 04, 2013, 08:02:12 PM
I do agree that since the GameCube, Nintendo has had a harder time with coming up with creative ideas. At the same time there are multiple generations of people that have grown up after the N64 era that more or less need a title like NSMB DS. 3D Mario continues the quest for daring new ideas with more of a challenge so I feel we get exactly want. As much as I would love it, every 2D Mario cant be a Yoshi's island, its just too complicated for newer people to get involved. I honestly think the "cookie cutter sequel" is necessary for the dual Mario audience.
This is a really good point. Though if you're a Mario newcomer and need to start on the simpler gameplay SMB3 and SMW are right there on the Virtual Console.
I stopped reading right there for one reason: Kids (ie the newcomers) are fucking jaded as soon as they learn to express themselves. You give a 5 year old a wiimote and ask if he wants to play SMB3/W or NSMB12W/WU and I promise you that kid will pick NSMB. First of all, if they can read they see the word "new" and think its instantly better, but more importantly, the out-dated graphics of SMB3/W aren't charming to that kid, they're fugly. Just because you're old enough to appreciate the leap in graphics doesn't mean kids can. There are phone apps that turn off all phone features in order for you to throw it to your newborn and let them be amazed by colorful shapes and designs, none of which look anything like the graphics we grew up with. **** I'm an 80s kid and after playing NES for a few years and seeing my cousin dig out his old Atari, I thought "why does it look so ugly".
So yeah, don't think a kid will simply go to to the virtual console to experience a masterpiece.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Caterkiller on January 04, 2013, 09:28:00 PM
In Ian's defense he more or less said that in his follow up sentences.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: UncleBob on January 05, 2013, 12:36:13 AM
And... I totally forgot. Re: Flagpole jumping. Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Mario Vs. say "Hi".
As I said in my post:
Quote
You can argue that it was the flagpole since it was used in the first game and The Lost Levels but those games were the first and if it was to be the standard, why change it on all later games and not bring it back until nearly 20 years later?
And Super Mario Bros. 2, had doors and bird mouths to go through instead in North America. Lost levels which wasn't released in N/A until All-Stars wouldn't have made an impact on player's minds that this is how levels must end. I never realized it was the original sequel to SMB until years later. I just thought it was stuff taken out of the original game. I was a kid and it was called Lost Levels. Super Mario VS. is just an arcade version blending both of those games together. Hard to call that an original game. In any case, the point still stands that using flagpoles as an ending to a level stopped in 1986 when those two games were made and then Nintendo started using new ideas until 20 years later and now that's all that is used.
Super Mario Vs. is more than just levels from the two games smushed together. Some parts of the levels have enemies switched around to make them harder. I think powerups and 1-ups were removed as well.
Also, Super Mario Bros. Special, though developed with Hudson Soft., used the flag pole mechanic as well.
But your point about Super Mario Bros. 2 USA vs. Super Mario Bros. 2 JPN somewhat illustrates my point. From a creative standpoint, SMB2J is the *real* Mario sequel - and it's just more of the same, with minor changes. From a marketing standpoint (in the USA, at least), SMB2U is a totally unrelated game with Mario characters shoe-horned in just for marketing reasons.
For people to say they want Nintendo to be as creative as they were back in the day... well, SMB2J was their idea of a sequel back in the day.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: EasyCure on January 05, 2013, 12:58:02 AM
And... I totally forgot. Re: Flagpole jumping. Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Mario Vs. say "Hi".
As I said in my post:
Quote
You can argue that it was the flagpole since it was used in the first game and The Lost Levels but those games were the first and if it was to be the standard, why change it on all later games and not bring it back until nearly 20 years later?
And Super Mario Bros. 2, had doors and bird mouths to go through instead in North America. Lost levels which wasn't released in N/A until All-Stars wouldn't have made an impact on player's minds that this is how levels must end. I never realized it was the original sequel to SMB until years later. I just thought it was stuff taken out of the original game. I was a kid and it was called Lost Levels. Super Mario VS. is just an arcade version blending both of those games together. Hard to call that an original game. In any case, the point still stands that using flagpoles as an ending to a level stopped in 1986 when those two games were made and then Nintendo started using new ideas until 20 years later and now that's all that is used.
Super Mario Vs. is more than just levels from the two games smushed together. Some parts of the levels have enemies switched around to make them harder. I think powerups and 1-ups were removed as well.
Also, Super Mario Bros. Special, though developed with Hudson Soft., used the flag pole mechanic as well.
But your point about Super Mario Bros. 2 USA vs. Super Mario Bros. 2 JPN somewhat illustrates my point. From a creative standpoint, SMB2J is the *real* Mario sequel - and it's just more of the same, with minor changes. From a marketing standpoint (in the USA, at least), 1SMB2U is a totally unrelated game with Mario characters shoe-horned in just for marketing reasons.
For people to say they want Nintendo to be as creative as they were back in the day... well, 2SMB2J was their idea of a sequel back in the day.
1Nintendo's first gimmick, Ian?
2 Cookie.. cutter.. sequel.. tsk tsk tsk
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Khushrenada on January 05, 2013, 07:10:47 PM
For people to say they want Nintendo to be as creative as they were back in the day... well, SMB2J was their idea of a sequel back in the day.
Perhaps but that might also be because nobody really gave much thought to sequels in videogames before. I can't think of too many but Pac-man and Mrs. Pac-man come to mind. The first was so successful that a sequel was made with some new maps and a bit tougher challenge. I can't recall off the top of my head whether Space Invaders had a sequel. But in early videogames, the norm just seemed to be that if a game was doing really well, you just release the same game with slight changes or make it a bit tougher.
It could be that when Nintendo realized that gaming wasn't going to crash again and was something they could keep doing for years that they started giving more thought to sequels and realized the necessity of expanding characters game worlds to keep interest in them going. Plus, as developers found new things that could be done with the tech and came up with new gameplay ideas, I'm sure that also had a factor in deciding to change things up when making a sequel to a game. Of course, this is just speculation on my part but it's something that struck me when I read your point.
I can't help but wonder whether Mega Man may have had an influence because that is the earliest sequel I can think of where the second game surpasses the first and shows how a game can be expanded on while still keeping it's core elements intact. Maybe that influenced how games could be made because Mega Man then went on to have 6 more sequels as well demonstrating the power of a franchise. After Super Mario Bros. 2 Japan, Nintendo really didn't make any cookie cutter sequels as obvious as that for probably a decade and a half.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: UncleBob on January 05, 2013, 07:23:37 PM
Perhaps but that might also be because nobody really gave much thought to sequels in videogames before.
Well, I'm going to somewhat shoot my own argument in the foot here, but Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr. and Donkey Kong 3 would probably be the best example of early sequels where the game play was really changed up from the initial releases (even more so with DK3).
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 05, 2013, 07:29:49 PM
You give a 5 year old a wiimote and ask if he wants to play SMB3/W or NSMB12W/WU and I promise you that kid will pick NSMB. First of all, if they can read they see the word "new" and think its instantly better, but more importantly, the out-dated graphics of SMB3/W aren't charming to that kid, they're fugly.
I'm only getting around to reading this now, but I have to call bulls*** on this. While it's true that I grew up playing Super Mario Bros 3, my seven year old cousin certainly didn't. Yet, despite the fact that he owns NSMB on DS and NSMB Wii on (you guessed it) Wii, every time I see him he talks my ear off about the 'cool' stuff he's been doing in SMB3 (I gave him a SNES and a few games last year, including the all-stars version of SMB3). I called up to see my aunt shortly before christmas and he regaled me of tales of Giant 'Turtles' and Goombas, lol.
He's just as obsessed with the game as I was when I was his age. The use of the term 'new' or the plastic-looking visuals of the NSMB series don't factor into it. He flat out prefers All-Stars, and who could blame him?
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Sarail on January 05, 2013, 10:35:52 PM
Smart kid.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: TJ Spyke on January 06, 2013, 12:07:20 AM
I can't think of too many but Pac-man and Mrs. Pac-man come to mind.
Um, Ms. Pac-Man was made by an unrelated company as a arcade mod, but was turned into an official sequel when Midway (who owned the US rights to Pac-Man at the time) saw it and was impressed. Midway and Atari did not develop the game at all. Think of it like Counter-Strike, which started as a fan-made mod to Half-Life.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: ThePerm on January 06, 2013, 12:34:24 AM
I don't want Nintendo to have a new IP as much as I want them to have diverse genre's and no gaps in quality or their yearly line up. Or if they are going to use all their existing franchises they should treat them with the same type of respect they did when they became hits.
Right now we have
Mario Bros & Yoshi- by this i mean Mario Bros. and all of its spinoffs. Including Yoshi, Luigi's Mansion, Wario Bros. These games are healthy although there are a bunch of spinoffs. The main series is definitely NSMB and Galaxy at the moment. Evey other game is not treated with the same level of perfection. None of the other games are the type of games that would get a 10 rating from any news organization. If Nintendo really made a Luigi game that got the same level of care as a Mario game...it would be like having a new franchise. That is probably about what Nintendo was trying to do with game cube. Nintendo has the opportunity to do something similar withj Wii U because Wii U has power behind it.
Zelda- My issue with Zelda is all gameplay wise. No let me preface I still haven't played skyward sword outside of the store demo, but let me say i have played some games that kind of make Zelda seem too old fashioned. Thats not to say that I don't like Zelda gameplay, but it would be better applied to a different newer franchise.
Kirby-Kirby is an oddball in that every Kirby game that comes out is pretty different. I have no real complaints about the Kirby series other than that I haven't had a chance to play any recently. I think Nintendo is taking the right approach for this franchise.
Donkey Kong- I'm on the same boat with this and Kirby. need to play this.
Metroid- Metroid: Other M looked like a fucking cliché silly mess of a game. I think they should bring back prime the way it was, and have some super multi player mode, and co-op. I know Nintendo never pushed Metroid as a shooting game, but they should. Metroid single player is under appreciated, and the series could use a jolt of popularity from multiplayer. Nintendo has had this franchise for a while, and its like the one "Mature" franchise that they have.
Star Fox- Starfox is undervalued by Nintendo themselves. They haven't seemed to try to make a legitamate game. This series has really gone cookie-cutter when it has so much potential. The problem lies in how they have approached it. They think just because an off the wall non starfox starfox game like "Dinosaur Planet" didn't get the results they wanted that they can just make some silly basic starfox games. Starfox has potential.
F-Zero-Miyamoyto said recently that he couldn't think of what more they could do with this franchise, too me that is just a plain wrong attitude. Heres our example of them turining their creative juices off. It has so much potential.
Kid Icarus(recently revived)- ill leave it at that. This could be our new IP. I don't have a 3DS so i dont know about this, but I would hope to see a console version.
Pikimin- at least they are doing something with this
Animal Crossing- They need to do more than just re-package this game and call it something different. Animnal crossing was a fun game when it came out. Having played minecraft...i see the potential for hybridization with this game. It would be so awesome. Animal Crossing has the potential to be this crazy second life addictive game if they would just expand it some. I can imagine hosts of people not having lives because of this.
but Nintendo has lost a few franchises over the year to attrition. We don't have Banjo, Conker, Killer Instinct, and Perfect Dark like we used to. What Nintendo needs is a popular shooter, a popular fighting game, and maybe a really good survival horror game just to keep their variety going. There shouldn't be a time where we're disappointed that some third party is withholding a franchise. If that is a problem then there needs to be some Nintendo grown alternative.
The other issue is that Nintendo doesn't seem to be on the ball ever. You would think that at the end of the Wii there would be some quality games to play so its popularity doesn't falter. You would think there would be a lot more launch titles if there were no games at the end of the last console cycle. Nintendo transitioned from nes to snes and from snes to n64 without a hickup, but n64 to gamecube to wii to wii u have not been flawless.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: EasyCure on January 06, 2013, 06:58:42 AM
That's the only response I can give to PixPix, that and perhaps he's not a spoiled brat like the kids I've seen. I would also like to question exactly when did you give him the SNES and how much gaming had he done before the gift? I could understand a kid appreciating it if it was where he started on, like a lot of us here (or earlier!), before moving on to modern gaming machines. A lot of the kids I've seen, especially within family (where I have no qualms about telling their parents, my relatives, that their kid is a spoiled brat) have the kind of attitude I described as opposed to your example; besides I never said it was a definitive consensus amongst youth.
My post was more of a response to Ian's post where he insinuating a child of this day and age would willingly go in to the virtual console shop and purchase SMB2 or SMAS on his own if they wanted to try a classic mario experience - which if they have the means to access the shop and purchase games on their own, likely means they in fact ARE the spoiled brat type that I pictured when he proposed his scenario, and not the beacon of hope that is your cousin. Seriously, keep him on the right track when it comes to gaming, less he became another one of those idiots that make our hobby look bad.
Title: Re: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 06, 2013, 08:10:50 AM
That's the only response I can give to PixPix, that and perhaps he's not a spoiled brat like the kids I've seen. I would also like to question exactly when did you give him the SNES and how much gaming had he done before the gift? I could understand a kid appreciating it if it was where he started on, like a lot of us here (or earlier!), before moving on to modern gaming machines. A lot of the kids I've seen, especially within family (where I have no qualms about telling their parents, my relatives, that their kid is a spoiled brat) have the kind of attitude I described as opposed to your example; besides I never said it was a definitive consensus amongst youth.
True. The example of my cousin Eadaoin is far from definitive either, but I think it stands as proof that young children can be just as discerning as we are. As you say, alot of that perhaps has to do with upbringing and their history with video games. In the case of my cousin he has owned a DS for at least 2 years (I don't know exactly when it would have been given to him, but it was when I saw him with the DS that I thought he might appreciate the spare SNES I had picked up online). I think he actually got the Wii the same christmas I gave him the SNES, but it might have been the year after.
In any case, he seems to enjoy the NSMB games (he apparently loves the propellor suit) but he absolutely adores the All-Stars collection, and that's evidenced by the fact that his school books are covered with doodles of Mario with a cape AND tail, lol
