Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Nile Boogie Returns on September 21, 2014, 09:37:44 AM
Title: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on September 21, 2014, 09:37:44 AM
Learning that Ice Climber's were cut from the roster cause they couldn't get them to work on 3DS but they workwd on 15 year old hardware is kinda cray to me. I thought at worst they would be on par with each other with the push going to the 3DS.
I don't know what I expected?
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: ShyGuy on September 21, 2014, 10:19:10 AM
Gamecube is a beast.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Adrock on September 21, 2014, 10:41:28 AM
Ice Climbers may have worked on 3DS in single player mode but created issues in online multiplayer, possibly even in local multiplayer. One or two players may have been fine. The problem could have been if all four players chose Ice Climbers and caused latency issues. Even though four player Ice Climbers matches probably don't happen too often, the developers can't artificially limit that in the game.
This reasoning is fine with me. However, the Ice Climbers should still be in the Wii U version, parity be damned.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 21, 2014, 10:48:16 AM
It's kind of hard to compare the 3DS to the GameCube. GameCube uses a RISC processor and ATI GPU, 3DS uses two ARM processors. Different clockspeeds, completely different architecture. Either way that sounds like a cop out excuse (or just very poorly worded or poorly translated) and nothing a company (except maybe Ubisioft) would actually say. Having aid that, I haven't seen anything on 3DS that looks better than something the GameCube could pull off, including Smash Bros.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on September 21, 2014, 02:25:13 PM
Well Smash on the cube doesn't look as good as Smash on the 3DS. I know there are many factors in why that is . Melee was practically a GC launch title. Twilight Princess is the best looking GameCube to me I'm not sure that would be a problem on the 3DS.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Mop it up on September 21, 2014, 02:29:53 PM
In addition to the better graphics than Melee, the game also seems to have more stuff going on as well. Some characters have some crazy moves, some stages seem more complex with more going on, there are more items with variances like the Assist Trophy... and they want all this to run at 60fps with no dips. I can believe it.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on September 21, 2014, 02:37:52 PM
In addition to the better graphics than Melee, the game also seems to have more stuff going on as well. Some characters have some crazy moves, some stages seem more complex with more going on, there are more items with variances like the Assist Trophy... and they want all this to run at 60fps with no dips. I can believe it.
ALL IN 3D!
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 21, 2014, 03:58:40 PM
Yeah I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with that "Smash Bros. for 3DS has better graphics than Melee" idea. The quasi-cel shading effect is pretty cool, and the 3DS version has the benefit of basing the character textures on newer versions (like Skyward Sword Link vs Ocarina of Time Link) but there is a lot more going on in the backgrounds on Melee and you can compare characters like Bowser and see that he looks much better in Melee. Of course Smash Bros. Melee also runs at nearly 4x the resolution of the 3DS game.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Adrock on September 21, 2014, 05:46:18 PM
The backgrounds in Melee are pretty barren. Some of the stages with more going on feature some simplistic models. Take Big Blue for example. The machines are very plain Nd the background is a whole lot of nothing. It's possible Hal Labs was trying to match the look of F-Zero X though I think inexperience with the hardware is certainly a possibility for the way some stages look. Battlefield in Melee doesn't even really have a background. Point being, that's not the example I'd use.
Had Melee been a 2004 release, not a launch window title, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. Super Smash Bros. for 3DS looks excellent on the screen it's made for. As Brandogg mentioned, Melee runs at a higher resolution and the 3DS game hides some of its graphical deficiencies this way. Once you get a closer look at the character models (like on the victory screen), you can see that they aren't quite as smooth as Melee's.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: ThePerm on September 21, 2014, 06:48:10 PM
3ds is more powerful than gamecube, comparing smash bros to smash bros is a bad example with power comparisons. There are some 3ds games that look like ps3 games. If i were to guess it probably relates to how the zoom works in smash bros, the small screen makes that not work so well. On a big screen you can have the zelda 2 level zoom out super far, but you wouldn't want that with 3ds(or even psp/vita). Ice climbers need to have distance between other players to be functional characters.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Mop it up on September 23, 2014, 06:43:03 PM
Aside from the characters, Melee has always seemed very low-poly to me. The 3DS game looks a lot more smooth in that regard. There are a lot of what-ifs surrounding what Melee would be like as a later release, so I won't get into that.
But yes, GameCube does seem more powerful than 3DS on a practical level. I have yet to see a 3DS game that matches the best output on GameCube in terms of graphics and scale, and even year-to-year comparisons probably still put GameCube ahead. Metroid Prime is a 2002 game and it still seems above anything on 3DS.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 23, 2014, 08:22:34 PM
Rogue Leader looks better than anything I've seen on 3DS, and just about anything on Wii for that matter.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Ceric on September 23, 2014, 08:51:39 PM
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 23, 2014, 09:47:58 PM
There's great looking prerendered stuff on GameCube too. And I doubt any PS4/Xbone game running on an SDTV would look better than Wind Waker, because I doubt it's possible to look better than that at that resolution.
EDIT: Also, F-Zero GX in motion looks about as good as you can as well.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: ObbyDent on September 23, 2014, 10:16:26 PM
None of those pictures are pre-rendered. Hell, the two middle scenes were pictures taken directly from gameplay.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 24, 2014, 12:50:12 AM
Yes, those are all running in real time. I don't want to hate on GameCube, but it's a crime to even try to compare even something like Wind Waker to any retail PS4 or Xbone game, even running at 480p.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on September 24, 2014, 12:55:11 AM
...but, but Wind Waker is the best looking game of all time so how can any game look better?
(and Brandogg is totally right about Rouge Leader, That game needs an HD remake...and it will never, EVER happen.)
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 24, 2014, 01:39:04 AM
Even on Wii U, Wind Waker HD would never get mistaken for a (retail) PS4 or Xbone game.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: ObbyDent on September 24, 2014, 01:54:39 AM
I think a lot of you guys are confusing fantastic art direction for amazing graphics. There really isn't anything special about Wind Waker HD. It has fantastic art direction, which is why it can look good even today. Okami and Beyond Good & Evil are similar games. But its completely ridiculous to compare a Gamecube game to a current gen console.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 24, 2014, 01:59:55 AM
It depends on what you mean by that. Wind Waker (and I think most games of Nintendo's that you'd laud graphically) are more impressive for their art style than their technical merit. I don't think Wind Waker would really look any better on PS4 than it does on Wii U.
EDIT: Right, what Oblivion said. Purely on a technical basis comparing GameCube to PS4 is ludicrous.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Sarail on September 24, 2014, 10:01:23 AM
I think a lot of you guys are confusing fantastic art direction for amazing graphics. There really isn't anything special about Wind Waker HD. It has fantastic art direction, which is why it can look good even today. Okami and Beyond Good & Evil are similar games. But its completely ridiculous to compare a Gamecube game to a current gen console.
And you're confusing amazing graphics with photo-realistic art design. The descriptor, amazing, is just that - an opinion. It's just as if saying Wind Waker has fantastic art direction, too.
And yes, there are games on GameCube when played on the appropriate television set (a 480i/p standard CRT) that look just as great as PS4/Xbox One/Wii U games. Rogue Leader, Wind Waker, Resident Evil 4, Soul Calibur II, Star Fox Adventures (ridiculous fur effects), Pikmin, F-Zero GX, and even Beyond Good & Evil.
Art style or photo-realism..or not, appropriate to its original resolution and viewed on its respective display, yes, these GC games look just as good as the games' and their respective screenshots you posted (look, I can opinion, too!)
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on September 24, 2014, 11:12:31 AM
I don't think there is a definitive opinion on "graphics" or better yet its a combination of both technical merit and art direction. There are flat out ugly, highly technical games on ps360 that I would consider far worse looking than some PS2 / GC / XBOX, (the first one, xbox2001) games. For my money the best looking games are ones that marry both side of the of the array to a nice harmony.
WW JET GRIND RADIO...MY GOD! Street Fight 3 3rd strike
just off the top, these games have sequels that don't surpass them in terms of "graphics" even with more bits, RAM shaders and all that.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: ObbyDent on September 24, 2014, 12:15:23 PM
And you're confusing amazing graphics with photo-realistic art design. The descriptor, amazing, is just that - an opinion. It's just as if saying Wind Waker has fantastic art direction, too.
And yes, there are games on GameCube when played on the appropriate television set (a 480i/p standard CRT) that look just as great as PS4/Xbox One/Wii U games. Rogue Leader, Wind Waker, Resident Evil 4, Soul Calibur II, Star Fox Adventures (ridiculous fur effects), Pikmin, F-Zero GX, and even Beyond Good & Evil.
Art style or photo-realism..or not, appropriate to its original resolution and viewed on its respective display, yes, these GC games look just as good as the games' and their respective screenshots you posted (look, I can opinion, too!)
Sure, amazing graphics is an opinion and I could be wrong about whether or not they look just as good, but this is not an opinion:
There are games that were on the system that could still be mistaken for PS4/XBone games. Just that good.
There is no game on the Gamecube that can be "mistaken" for a retail PS4/Xbone game. None. Regardless of art style vs. technical merit. If you can post a screenshot of a game that could be mistaken for a game on either console, I will completely concede to the multiple points that I disagree with and bow out of the argument. I am 100% confident that that game does not exist.
Oh, and just as a little aside, Journey (A PS3 game!) doesn't have photo-realistic graphics and looks x1000 times better than Wind Waker.
(http://i.minus.com/ileWXdsKyJg8j.gif)
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Adrock on September 24, 2014, 01:57:23 PM
PS4/One is certainly a stretch. Screenshots of Resident Evil Revelaitons appeared close to Resident Evil 5 on PS3/360 at a glance. Once I got the game in my hands, I didn't make that mistake anymore. Revelaitons looks good for a 3DS game, but let's not give it too much credit. The game has a direction comparison and the Wii U version mops the floor with it.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 24, 2014, 02:58:17 PM
And Resident Evil 5 mops the floor with Revelaitons, sadly - but it is a port of a handheld game.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 24, 2014, 05:27:50 PM
In the words of one of my predecessors, your opinion is objectively wrong.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Mop it up on September 30, 2014, 04:04:31 PM
I think all games can benefit from better specs, some more than others though. In the case of Wind Waker, it's another game that seemed a bit low-poly to me, and this is only amplified in the HD version where the chunkiness really stands out. If the graphics were actually made on modern hardware then things would look a lot more smooth and rounded than they do.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Ian Sane on September 30, 2014, 07:57:31 PM
So Nintendo has conditioned their fans to think specs = bad so effectively that we're getting Gamecube vs. PS4 comparisons now? Come on! That's delusional.
If the Gamecube is truly more powerful than the 3DS (and the Ice Climber isn't just a bullshit excuse) that doesn't matter to me. One is a handheld and one is a console. It takes advancements in technology to shrink down hardware that used to be cutting edge into a portable size and one that also doesn't produce too much heat (can't put a fan in a handheld) or suck up battery life too quickly. I don't like intentionally underpowered consoles but I expect a trade-off for handhelds. Hell that's something Nintendo has always done right that their competition always screws up.
Keep in mind also that the 3DS outputs to a much smaller screen (well screens) so its need to make the graphics as sharp isn't so high. Of course it needs to dedicate some performance to a two screens at once and 3D effects and online play which Melee obviously didn't have.
To me the issue is entirely that Nintendo's insistence on making both games the same has compromised the console version which absolutely could do what both Melee and Brawl did and much more. But imagine there was a significant release date gap between the 3DS and Wii U games and they weren't connected. In that case you might be much more accepting of the Ice Climbers being cut. The connection between both games brings console experience expectations to the handheld version.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Adrock on September 30, 2014, 08:06:37 PM
So Nintendo has conditioned their fans to think specs = bad so effectively that we're getting Gamecube vs. PS4 comparisons now? Come on! That's delusional.
Dude, one person said that and everyone else was like, "No, that's not true at all..." I'm trying really hard to ignore your absurd generalizations, but even I couldn't let this go.
Edit: Okay, maybe two. Nile was kind of defending it.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: nickmitch on September 30, 2014, 11:18:00 PM
Maybe he was just responding to those two people?
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on October 01, 2014, 11:06:06 AM
So Nintendo has conditioned their fans to think specs = bad so effectively that we're getting Gamecube vs. PS4 comparisons now? Come on! That's delusional.
Dude, one person said that and everyone else was like, "No, that's not true at all..." I'm trying really hard to ignore your absurd generalizations, but even I couldn't let this go.
Edit: Okay, maybe two. Nile was kind of defending it.
I'm not crazy i was just making a point about graphics being subjective.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: ObbyDent on October 01, 2014, 11:54:21 AM
So Nintendo has conditioned their fans to think specs = bad so effectively that we're getting Gamecube vs. PS4 comparisons now? Come on! That's delusional.
Dude, one person said that and everyone else was like, "No, that's not true at all..." I'm trying really hard to ignore your absurd generalizations, but even I couldn't let this go.
Edit: Okay, maybe two. Nile was kind of defending it.
I'm not crazy i was just making a point about graphics being subjective.
Specs are not subjective.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: pokepal148 on October 01, 2014, 12:41:45 PM
So Nintendo has conditioned their fans to think specs = bad so effectively that we're getting Gamecube vs. PS4 comparisons now? Come on! That's delusional.
Dude, one person said that and everyone else was like, "No, that's not true at all..." I'm trying really hard to ignore your absurd generalizations, but even I couldn't let this go.
Edit: Okay, maybe two. Nile was kind of defending it.
I'm not crazy i was just making a point about graphics being subjective.
Specs are not subjective.
But good specs /= good graphics.
I don't care what kind of hardware your game is running on. If your game doesn't have good art design or you don't take advantage of it's hardware for presentation then the game won't look good.
The PS4/xbone may have more capable hardware then the gamecube but that doesn't mean that all ps4 games look better then gamecube games.
So Nintendo has conditioned their fans to think specs = bad so effectively that we're getting Gamecube vs. PS4 comparisons now? Come on! That's delusional.
Dude, one person said that and everyone else was like, "No, that's not true at all..." I'm trying really hard to ignore your absurd generalizations, but even I couldn't let this go.
Edit: Okay, maybe two. Nile was kind of defending it.
I'm not crazy i was just making a point about graphics being subjective.
Specs are not subjective.
Subjective may not be the best choice of words, but they can be hard to pin down. Better specs don't necessarily mean better graphics; most any game that came out on both 360 and PS3 will show you that. Specs don't mean a damn thing in a vacuum, it's all about what you do with them.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Ian Sane on October 01, 2014, 06:07:12 PM
I don't care what kind of hardware your game is running on. If your game doesn't have good art design or you don't take advantage of it's hardware for presentation then the game won't look good.
The PS4/xbone may have more capable hardware then the gamecube but that doesn't mean that all ps4 games look better then gamecube games.
It doesn't have to be every game though. Every system has some games that look terrible both in art design and in regards to pushing the hardware. The thing is you could take every Gamecube game ever released and port it to the PS4 but you couldn't go the other way. Hey doesn't Wind Waker on the Wii U look better than the Gamecube version? Specs make a huge difference. Think of it as giving an artist better tools to work with. Can a great artist paint a beautiful picture using only four colours? Sure, but think of what that same artist can do with millions of colours at his disposal. As the tools improve not everything made with it improves but the potential increases and great works can reach a level that could not be done in the past.
Besides Nintendo fans weren't so defensive about specs until the Wii came out. I remember us all bragging about the Gamecube's technical superiority to the PS2. We all mocked the PS2 version of RE4 for looking inferior to the Gamecube one. Specs seemed to matter when it was something we had over the other guys and it ceased to matter once we didn't. Just like FPS games were awesome on the N64 but are just bro-gamer nonsense now and RPGs were awesome on the SNES and then sucked during the N64 years but are now great again. And sales didn't matter when Sony was kicking our ass but they were the go-to argument to depend against any complaint about the Wii.
You can do more with better specs. That's not a debate, it's a fact. What level of specs are sufficient for a current game system and at what price point? Yeah, that's a discussion.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 01, 2014, 06:24:47 PM
That's a heck of a straw man you built there. There's nowhere near that much agreement among Nintendo fans to argue that those opinions were anywhere near universal. Nintendo probably wishes we were so consistent with those kinds of thing, as it would probably make it easier for them to please us.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on October 01, 2014, 06:36:41 PM
Better specs = *potential* for better graphics. Also graphics can be judged both subjectively and objectively, and sometimes a different conclusion can come from either way of looking at them.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: pokepal148 on October 01, 2014, 06:54:15 PM
I don't care what kind of hardware your game is running on. If your game doesn't have good art design or you don't take advantage of it's hardware for presentation then the game won't look good.
The PS4/xbone may have more capable hardware then the gamecube but that doesn't mean that all ps4 games look better then gamecube games.
It doesn't have to be every game though. Every system has some games that look terrible both in art design and in regards to pushing the hardware. The thing is you could take every Gamecube game ever released and port it to the PS4 but you couldn't go the other way. Hey doesn't Wind Waker on the Wii U look better than the Gamecube version? Specs make a huge difference. Think of it as giving an artist better tools to work with. Can a great artist paint a beautiful picture using only four colours? Sure, but think of what that same artist can do with millions of colours at his disposal. As the tools improve not everything made with it improves but the potential increases and great works can reach a level that could not be done in the past.
Besides Nintendo fans weren't so defensive about specs until the Wii came out. I remember us all bragging about the Gamecube's technical superiority to the PS2. We all mocked the PS2 version of RE4 for looking inferior to the Gamecube one. Specs seemed to matter when it was something we had over the other guys and it ceased to matter once we didn't. Just like FPS games were awesome on the N64 but are just bro-gamer nonsense now and RPGs were awesome on the SNES and then sucked during the N64 years but are now great again. And sales didn't matter when Sony was kicking our ass but they were the go-to argument to depend against any complaint about the Wii.
You can do more with better specs. That's not a debate, it's a fact. What level of specs are sufficient for a current game system and at what price point? Yeah, that's a discussion.
I agree with this...with a caveat. Many times art is about limiting yourself, working with the tools you have and through that challenge create something great. Look at Shovel Knight. Clearly better tools were available, but they made a beautifully artistically amazing game, that although uses lower technology I believe actually looks more appealing and better than many of the PS4 games. Not because it is a technical marvel, but because it is aesthetically pleasing to me.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Mop it up on October 01, 2014, 08:22:52 PM
Why does everyone keep generalizing so much?
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on October 01, 2014, 08:56:46 PM
Wow, way to group everybody altogether.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on October 01, 2014, 10:27:29 PM
If Shovel Knight was on PS4 would you still feel that way? How do you feel about Mega Man 9 or 10 are they works of art too or are they just sloppy cash grabs?
I have no problem with saying art is subjective but graphics are not, at least not when the game depends on it. If we are talking racing games, as an example you can not say that more polygons and graphics effects making a better looking car is not better graphics. You can say you prefer the art style of Wind Waker over the art style of Mass Effect but you can't really say it has better graphics, it just has a unique art style you appreciate more.
before you give me **** for my opinions keep in mind I don't own a PS4 and I don't give a **** about graphics either but it is really, really hard to accept someone would honestly think Game Cube is as powerful as PS4, there is just no way you can honestly believe that.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 01, 2014, 10:31:23 PM
Graphics are absolutely subjective, outside of certain technical measurements. I disagree with your premise that there's a substantive difference between "art" and "graphics."
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 02, 2014, 01:21:45 AM
If Shovel Knight was on PS4 would you still feel that way? How do you feel about Mega Man 9 or 10 are they works of art too or are they just sloppy cash grabs?
I have no problem with saying art is subjective but graphics are not, at least not when the game depends on it. If we are talking racing games, as an example you can not say that more polygons and graphics effects making a better looking car is not better graphics. You can say you prefer the art style of Wind Waker over the art style of Mass Effect but you can't really say it has better graphics, it just has a unique art style you appreciate more.
before you give me **** for my opinions keep in mind I don't own a PS4 and I don't give a **** about graphics either but it is really, really hard to accept someone would honestly think Game Cube is as powerful as PS4, there is just no way you can honestly believe that.
Was this directed at me? If so. Yes, Mega Man 9 and 10 are beautiful works of art. I have always loved the 8 bit style Mega Man games much greater than basically all other incarnations of him. In fact the added detail in the character in Mega Man 7 ruins it. The detail actually breaks some of the charm.
Also, I will say I loved the art style of F-Zero 64...the design had bland racers without much detail, but something about it clicked with me. Now, I will not say it was better than the Gamecube F-Zero, but it worked.
All I meant to say is that sometimes limits allow you to create something that is special precisely because it had limits. However, it doesn't mean that using the most powerful advanced technology available to make some technically amazing art isn't equally impressive and often times more impressive it is different. And tastes change.
In fact when I was in High School and college I tried to get back into Retro gaming, but the art and controls felt awful and I couldn't appreciate it. However, when the Wii Virtual Console came out, I fell in love with all the classics all over again. I was in Retro heaven, and I loved the graphics...to the point I enjoyed them more than the modern games sometimes.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on October 02, 2014, 12:17:16 PM
I wasn't being or intending to be confrontational I was asking for clarify, so you offered that. I was just seriously unsure about that. I wasn't saying if you believed that you are wrong I was just wondering if your view was because it was on Wii U that it looked beautiful to you but you sound smarter than that so I wasn't sure.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Ian Sane on October 02, 2014, 01:59:08 PM
I don't care what kind of hardware your game is running on. If your game doesn't have good art design or you don't take advantage of it's hardware for presentation then the game won't look good.
The PS4/xbone may have more capable hardware then the gamecube but that doesn't mean that all ps4 games look better then gamecube games.
It doesn't have to be every game though. Every system has some games that look terrible both in art design and in regards to pushing the hardware. The thing is you could take every Gamecube game ever released and port it to the PS4 but you couldn't go the other way. Hey doesn't Wind Waker on the Wii U look better than the Gamecube version? Specs make a huge difference. Think of it as giving an artist better tools to work with. Can a great artist paint a beautiful picture using only four colours? Sure, but think of what that same artist can do with millions of colours at his disposal. As the tools improve not everything made with it improves but the potential increases and great works can reach a level that could not be done in the past.
Besides Nintendo fans weren't so defensive about specs until the Wii came out. I remember us all bragging about the Gamecube's technical superiority to the PS2. We all mocked the PS2 version of RE4 for looking inferior to the Gamecube one. Specs seemed to matter when it was something we had over the other guys and it ceased to matter once we didn't. Just like FPS games were awesome on the N64 but are just bro-gamer nonsense now and RPGs were awesome on the SNES and then sucked during the N64 years but are now great again. And sales didn't matter when Sony was kicking our ass but they were the go-to argument to depend against any complaint about the Wii.
You can do more with better specs. That's not a debate, it's a fact. What level of specs are sufficient for a current game system and at what price point? Yeah, that's a discussion.
I agree with this...with a caveat. Many times art is about limiting yourself, working with the tools you have and through that challenge create something great. Look at Shovel Knight. Clearly better tools were available, but they made a beautifully artistically amazing game, that although uses lower technology I believe actually looks more appealing and better than many of the PS4 games. Not because it is a technical marvel, but because it is aesthetically pleasing to me.
"Less is more" is totally valid. Some of my favourite looking games are over 20 years old. There are a fair amount of artists that actually seemed to suck once they didn't have limitations to work with. But one can always choose to use a small corner of a big sandbox. It can't go the other way. If you restrict the tech you deny anyone the option to make use of the bigger sandbox. You're forcing everyone to work with more limitations when that's not necessarily the best situation for everybody. Some developers will challenge themselves by going for broke and trying to make full use of the top tools of the day. Shovel Knight shows that you can always go backwards if you want so you don't need to restrict everyone else.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 02, 2014, 02:25:34 PM
I'm with Ian here; working with less can produce great results, but it can also make things just plain not work. Forcing that kind of environment across the board is generally not a good idea.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Mop it up on October 02, 2014, 05:00:35 PM
The problem with working with less these days is that people have seen the best of what technology can offer today and it seems the typical consumer wants it. 8-bit wasn't a stylistic choice back in the 80s, it was about as good as affordable technology could get and people accepted it for that reason. Shovel Knight, for example, could be a full-priced retail game on NES but today it's relegated to a $15 download, and many people will probably still wait for a sale to buy it.
I think this is becoming a problem, because it seems there's little place for those mid-range titles these days. The ones that have more meat and halfway decent graphics than the indie/download-only games, but aren't so bloated with flashiness and technical proficiency like AAA titles. And these were often my fave games, but nowadays they don't really sell. It would be nice if the mainstream consumer had a wider variety of tastes.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 02, 2014, 05:06:43 PM
It was also a lot more developer-intensive to make games like that in the 80s and required the expense of physical cartridges. I also think that as digital distribution becomes more and more the norm you'll start to see that middle ground filled in more. Look at Steam, where there's tons of stuff in the $20-40 price range.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Mop it up on October 02, 2014, 05:15:33 PM
I guess I more specifically mean in the format I want, which is physical media on consoles. In that case it's only been dwindling over the past 20 years. I feel like other aspects of games such as level design tend to be undervalued by people; games like NSMBU and Super Mario 3D World are a perfect example of games that clearly aren't pushing the system's abilities but a lot of effort went into the other aspects like levels and that's why they can still stand as full retail titles.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 02, 2014, 05:32:09 PM
The number of games that get released physically is only going to decrease. More games of the scope you're talking about will come, but the era of those kinds of things coming to retail isn't coming back.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Mop it up on October 02, 2014, 05:37:02 PM
They don't come digitally to consoles either and I'm not sure it's going to change. Companies these days seem to either chase the AAA dollars or release the indie-style hits, the landscape has changed. I may still be able to live with "digital-only consoles" if they had enough of what I wanted, but I'm still not expecting this long trend to reverse.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 02, 2014, 05:38:44 PM
They don't come to consoles because there's still a pretty hard break between "retail" and "download." As that line blurs, as it has on PC, I think we'll see more of it.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Khushrenada on October 02, 2014, 05:49:23 PM
I think this is becoming a problem, because it seems there's little place for those mid-range titles these days. The ones that have more meat and halfway decent graphics than the indie/download-only games, but aren't so bloated with flashiness and technical proficiency like AAA titles. And these were often my fave games, but nowadays they don't really sell. It would be nice if the mainstream consumer had a wider variety of tastes.
Welcome to 3DS gaming! I think that is another reason why I've been gravitating more and more to handheld games (like the Japanese!) because they often feel like the right length and scope to me. They are often sold in the price range you are looking for and offer a greater variety and focus on gameplay as graphics are not usually used as a selling point. The DS and 3DS games feel to me like they are carrying on the spirit of the SNES and Genesis generation of game design.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on October 06, 2014, 10:46:56 PM
I just popped in Twilight Princess GameCube (you know that game I said would have "forward compatibility" months before the Wii version was announced) and yeah, the gamecube was indeed a beast of a machine and i'm not sure the 3DS could handle this game. Although I would love to see this in 3D!
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Mop it up on October 07, 2014, 07:53:06 PM
The DS and 3DS games feel to me like they are carrying on the spirit of the SNES and Genesis generation of game design.
The only issue with this is that I can't play the games on a TV which is what I very much prefer. But lately I've been putting up with it to play some DS games since the state of console gaming has been getting progressively worse these past few years (maybe longer).
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on October 11, 2014, 03:45:59 PM
I have a similar issue, I would pick up a 3DS in a heatbeat or a "gameboy player" type device that let you play 3DS on a TV. My first experience with Game Boy games was on Super Game Boy. I HATE hand held gaming it hurts my eyes after just a few minutes I honestly can't figure out how it has gotten so popular. If it wasn't for Game Boy Player I wouldn't have experienced GBA either, well ok I did get the machine and link cable to try Crystal Chronicles but I mostly just used it for connectivity I played all my GB games on the Game Cube.
However with 3DS they have been releasing all the games I really WANT to play so its getting to the point at least with the XL having a decent sized screen, that I am very tempted to get one sooner or latter.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Stratos on October 11, 2014, 04:06:24 PM
Sounds like you would love Nintendo to release BnM's Nintendo Hybrid system. I'm liking the idea more and more if they follow a Steam-style universal platform.
Switching from handheld to console on a big TV would be perfect. Portable is more convenient at times but then on my "gaming nights" I want to hunker down at the TV for a big epic game session.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on October 11, 2014, 05:40:38 PM
Sounds like you would love Nintendo to release BnM's Nintendo Hybrid system. I'm liking the idea more and more if they follow a Steam-style universal platform.
Switching from handheld to console on a big TV would be perfect. Portable is more convenient at times but then on my "gaming nights" I want to hunker down at the TV for a big epic game session.
I would be just as happy if they went 3rd party or at least released games on Steam that way there is more flexibility. If I didn't have to spend $200-$300 on the machine I would gladly give them all my money for easy, convenient access to all their games. I spend lots of money on VC despite already owning just about every game on there. I do this for two reasons, 1 I actually do like to support companies who provide products that I enjoy, and 2, I like getting the benefits of upgrading these games to play on current technology so that I don't have to keep old TV sets, cables, and outdated hardware that constantly requires regular maintenance. Plus it keeps many of them in circulation so they don't become too hard to find like Super Mario RPG or Earthbound on SNES two games that VC gave a second life to, among others.
Nintendo would get more money from me and many others who want the games but not the wonky hardware. I know its their business model but they could consider upgrading a little bit maybe get out of the twentieth century for a change.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Ian Sane on October 14, 2014, 04:53:24 PM
I'm not a handheld guy and once the Game Boy Player came out I don't know if I ever played my actual GBA again. But I love my 3DS XL. I think the bigger screen really does make a difference. I had an original model DS with the smaller screen and never got into it.
Though one problem I have is I tend to be fairly animated when playing a game. In intense moments I move the controller around which is pretty disorienting when the screen is attached to the controller. My 3DS XL seems fine but I haven't bought any action games for it. I have Pokémon, Bravely Default and Theatrhythm Curtain Call. I hold my controller still in RPGs because the turn based structure means that there isn't much need for quick reflexes which triggers my animated controller usage. It may just be me specifically picking titles that I think won't be a problem for me on a handheld, rather than any benefit of the XL screen.
A 3DS player however (let's assume this would also include DS games) would make me seriously consider a Wii U purchase. The touchscreen seemed like the big stumbling block for such an idea on the Wii but Nintendo's console now has one. Top screen on TV, bottom screen on Gamepad and you're good. No 3D but the 2DS already has that so it isn't an essential feature and Nintendo obviously doesn't feel the need to force you to use it.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Mop it up on October 14, 2014, 07:30:25 PM
A 3/DS Player is the first thing I thought up when I first saw the Wii U. Seeing that Nintendo have since announced a DS VC for it, that pretty much confirms there won't be one, unfortunately. Or if there is one, it will just work with 3DS games. I also wonder if they could use the Wii U's streaming technology to just stream the image from an actual 3DS to the TV.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on October 14, 2014, 08:50:13 PM
your basing that assumption off the notion Nintendo wouldn't sell you the same game ten times, I think we have all proven that if there is one thing they are good at is getting us to keep rebuying the same game over and over.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Stratos on October 14, 2014, 09:33:03 PM
your basing that assumption off the notion Nintendo wouldn't sell you the same game ten times, I think we have all proven that if there is one thing they are good at is getting us to keep rebuying the same game over and over.
I laughed and felt sad at the same time because, depending on the game, this is humorous irony or bitter frustration at the titles they WILL NOT port. (Majora's Mask)
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on October 24, 2014, 10:33:27 AM
your basing that assumption off the notion Nintendo wouldn't sell you the same game ten times, I think we have all proven that if there is one thing they are good at is getting us to keep rebuying the same game over and over.
I laughed and felt sad at the same time because, depending on the game, this is humorous irony or bitter frustration at the titles they WILL NOT port. (Majora's Mask)
I am not 100% for sure but wasn't Majora's Mask a bomb when it was new? As far as Zelda games go it was my least favorite, but I guess its one of those love it or hate it games apparently.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 24, 2014, 10:44:15 AM
I imagine it sold decently just because at that point in the N64's life there was pretty much nothing else coming out and people had to take what they could get, but it probably did poorly comparatively to other big games. It's a very unconventional and divisive game; I've never played it myself, but I always admired them for doing something that different.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on October 24, 2014, 11:37:35 AM
I imagine it sold decently just because at that point in the N64's life there was pretty much nothing else coming out and people had to take what they could get, but it probably did poorly comparatively to other big games. It's a very unconventional and divisive game; I've never played it myself, but I always admired them for doing something that different.
I doubt it was that simple, it required the expansion pack if I remember correctly and not everyone had that so sales potential was limited.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 24, 2014, 11:40:32 AM
Yeah, that probably played a role, but I'm pretty sure it was after Dk64 and Perfect Dark so I think most people who were still buying N64 games at that point already had (at least) one.
EDIT: According to Wikipedia, who as we all know are never wrong, Majora's Mask sold 3.36 million copies worldwide. Pretty respectable, but only about half what Ocarina did.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on October 24, 2014, 11:47:55 AM
I know I didn't have one and out of all my friends who had a 64 only 1 did, he got it just for Majoras mask too. I didn't play the game much because I was trying to play them in order and I couldn't beat Ocarina of Time. But I am not the target audience, I lost interest in Zelda after ocarina because I felt they were just making too many of them and they are too similar. That is partly why I loved Hyrule Warriors so much.
It was different as far as the time crunch but game play wise it was still just more Zelda. I was also going to reference the Wiki article but then thought I wouldn't because VG Charts has a totally different number and I don't know who is more reputable because they both fudge the numbers. Also it wasn't clear if that number included Virtual Console and Collectors Disc sales or not. I assume not but you can't always make assumptions
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 24, 2014, 12:01:07 PM
I'd trust Wikipedia before VGChartz, but it's entirely possible they're both wrong. Still, I doubt it's incredibly far off. Multi-million selling's pretty good considering all the factors on that system at the time.
Title: Re: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?
Post by: Mop it up on October 25, 2014, 02:39:04 PM
EDIT: According to Wikipedia, who as we all know are never wrong, Majora's Mask sold 3.36 million copies worldwide. Pretty respectable, but only about half what Ocarina did.
Wikipedia's source for this number is an article that talks about Nintendo's presence at the Games Developer Conference in 2004, wherein Nintendo discuss sales of the Zelda series. So I think it's highly likely that this 3.36 million figure is correct.
