“Some people have been saying that the Japanese game industry is dead, and all that…. I dunno. I will say that Final Fantasy XIII is one really epic title for high definition consoles. With this game, we are going to resurrect the whole thing.”
A ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 10, 2010, 03:00:19 AM
When did they say this, because that moment has already passed and it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: ThePerm on February 10, 2010, 03:00:28 AM
as crazy as that sounds, Japanese sales of consoles have been down tremendously in the last couple of years, there hasn't been a FF console game this generation so....there could be a correlation. As much as i dislike JRPGs, i wouldn't underestimate the power of the king of JRPGs in J-land.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: broodwars on February 10, 2010, 03:01:36 AM
I don't see what is so funny about that quote that has you spazzing out on the keyboard there. The game has sold fairly well in Japan so far (just shy of 2 million units if I remember correctly, which is pretty good for one console), and it's too early to say whether the JRPG market will follow its lead or not. Seriously, with the exception of this game and Bayonetta the Japanese game industry (sans Nintendo, who operates in a separate universe that only they exist in) has been stagnant to decaying for years, so I don't see anything wrong in declaring that the latest installment in the 2nd biggest RPG franchise in Japan could have a big impact.
And, incidentally, FF XIII looks awesome, so I'm definitely looking forward to that one next month.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 10, 2010, 03:03:24 AM
FFXIII released weeks ago and stopped short of 2 million like a canon fired a ball in it's chest. Gmaes have been in the bargain bins. FFXIII isn't revitalizing anything in Japan.
The moment has already passed and nothing has happened, much like Y2k.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: broodwars on February 10, 2010, 03:10:27 AM
FFXIII released weeks ago and stopped short of 2 million like a canon fired a ball in it's chest. Gmaes have been in the bargain bins. FFXIII isn't revitalizing anything in Japan.
The moment has already passed and nothing has happened, much like Y2k.
We'll see what happens when the game hits worldwide on the 9th. That quote's a little vague as to what exactly he would hope to resurrect in the Japanese gaming market. Sales? Prestige in a time when Japanese developers are becoming increasingly irrelevant worldwide? This quote could easily be spun in several different directions, and we'll see what happens when the West has the game on two HD consoles.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 10, 2010, 03:17:58 AM
But the quote wasn't about US and Euro markets. It was about Japanese market and the moment for it's impact has already passed. The only way to fix that statement would be to replace FFXIII with NSMBW.
I have no doubt that FFXIII will be big in the US and maybe EUR but that really isn't the topic of discussion.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: KDR_11k on February 10, 2010, 03:45:42 AM
How many epic HD games have there been so far? 200? 400? If those haven't revived the market then why would FF13 do so? Nintendo set out to revive the Japanese market and they are succeeding and it doesn't involve HD or epic.
Nintendo set out to revive the Japanese market and they are succeeding and it doesn't involve HD or epic.
Sure, if by that you mean "Nintendo makes a lot of money while very little else does in the console market, and nearly the entire Japanese market shifts to the handhelds to the utter detriment of anyone living outside Japan."
This quote reminds me a lot of Inafune's quote at last year's Tokyo Game Show, where he stood on stage and commented on how completely dead he thought the Japanese game market was after looking at the titles at the show. Considering Nintendo was still making money hands over fist then, I get the feeling he wasn't referring to Japanese sales and I get the same feeling with this quote from the FF XIII producers. Like I said, we'll see if the Japanese RPG market continues its current resurgence in the wake of FF XIII, but it'll likely be a while till we know for sure.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Peachylala on February 10, 2010, 02:18:10 PM
Quote
How many epic HD games have there been so far? 200? 400? If those haven't revived the market then why would FF13 do so? Nintendo set out to revive the Japanese market and they are succeeding and it doesn't involve HD or epic.
There is a large growing trend with the 'epic' HD market gearing towards the North American/Europe market, which Japanese and American third parties are doing. However, this trend is a very prickly road. We even have a thread dedicated to the same people who took this road and lost their way.
Nintendo sometimes will take this road, but they are taking it carefully. What helps them is that they have strong brand power, quality control, and knowing what works and what doesn't... but that is another arguement for another thread.
Quote
FFXIII released weeks ago and stopped short of 2 million like a canon fired a ball in it's chest. Gmaes have been in the bargain bins. FFXIII isn't revitalizing anything in Japan.
Two million is great... until you realize it needs to sell many more copies to cover it's budget.
Leave it to America and Europe to do that. The FF loyalists will buy anything attached with the Final Fantasy brand (sans Crystal Chronicles), no matter how melodramatic or overrated it is.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: noname2200 on February 10, 2010, 03:27:32 PM
I don't see what is so funny about that quote that has you spazzing out on the keyboard there. The game has sold fairly well in Japan so far (just shy of 2 million units if I remember correctly, which is pretty good for one console), and it's too early to say whether the JRPG market will follow its lead or not. Seriously, with the exception of this game and Bayonetta the Japanese game industry (sans Nintendo, who operates in a separate universe that only they exist in) has been stagnant to decaying for years...
To provide a bit of context, Final Fantasy XII sold 2,322,000 copies in Japan (which is less than FF X, which is less than IX, which is less than VIII). http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Famitsu_Best_selling_video_games (http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Famitsu_Best_selling_video_games)
Based on that, I'd argue that it's actually underperformed. At the very least, it's a good representative of another "stagnant to decaying" series. I certainly wouldn't point to it as a game that's "reviving" the Japanese console market, especially when it's time to do so has already passed.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Stogi on February 10, 2010, 03:33:52 PM
That's basically saying that Metroid will revive the Japanese market.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ian Sane on February 10, 2010, 05:03:44 PM
Japan is the land of the fads and consoles just ain't cool no more. And that means no one buys them. You buy your portable and your non-games and you conform because it's Japan, DAMMIT! That's my rather crude and largely ignorant view of Japanese culture. :)
It always seems in that past that while multiple consoles could co-exist in America (even with one clear winner) in Japan it was like THIS console sells and everything else is niche. Or how such-and-such game was a huge hit in America but bombed in Japan and the excuse is that it's because it's not Japanese or it's not a popular genre over ther. I was initially like "but this is a good game and it can't find even the slightest audience there?"
I used to have a major interest in pro wrestling and Japan has a strong pro wrestling culture. But apparently MMA has significantly stolen the pro wrestling audiences away over there. I've also looked up Japanese baseball out of curiousity and apparently the introducing of the J1 soccer league has affected the bottomline and taken away fans. Huh? In North America FOUR major sports leagues co-exist with some cities having teams in all four sports and with local fans supporting all four teams. Whenever I look at Japan trends it seems like ONE thing is incredibly successful in its field and everything else struggles. In America demographics play a major role and something can find an audience even if the mainstream isn't into it. And American culture holds a lot of value in individual freedoms, which makes sense considering the history of the country.
Of course the major cultural gap I don't understand is why the Japanese companies give a ****. Japan's population is 127,470,000. The America's is 308,652,000 which is over TWICE that. Plus the North American market also includes Canada which adds another 34 million. And Europe has similar taste to North America as well. The UK has a population of 62 million, Germany is 81. And those are just the European countries I know for sure have strong videogame markets. So if you've got two markets and the Eastern one is fickle but the Western one is not and is at least three times the size and yet you put all your concerns in the smaller Eastern one that is HARDER to please? See that must be a culture thing because in the West businessmen look at the bottom line and focus on where the MONEY is.
You want to make console games? Then you focus on where people buy consoles and that's the West. Don't waste your time catering to a market that is no longer interested.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 10, 2010, 05:19:16 PM
The one thing Japanese game creators know, is that if they can make a game that the Japanese love and buy in mass it will also likely be a huge hit in the West too. They take pride, honor and respect in their country seriously, and it's not all about just chasing the money. If they can't make a game that their own countrymen and women want to play and instead focus solely on what westerners want, then they may feel like they are dishonoring their Japanese audience, and therefore the Japanese audience may ignore them. Nothing worse than losing respect of your home.
Kinda like focusing on the neighbors kids instead of your own, because the interest of your own kids have changed and the neighbors kids still like what you are into. Gotta put Family first. [/possibly misguided American view of Japanese culture]
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ian Sane on February 10, 2010, 05:54:42 PM
Quote
Kinda like focusing on the neighbors kids instead of your own, because the interest of your own kids have changed and eh neighbors kids still like what you are into. Family first.
;D I wouldn't associate neglecting my family with neglecting a bunch of strangers that happen to live in the same country as me. But again I think that's a culture thing. Japan is all about shame and honour and stuff like that.
We're talking about a country where it used to be customary to commit suicide rather than face the shame of being defeated by one's enemies. While America is more of a "last stand" country where if your enemies are going to kill you, you take as many down with you as you go.
The fact that Westerners like good Japanese games does suggest at least that Japanese devs should continue to make that style of games. I just don't want them to give up on that style because it's not so popular in their home country. And they could risk losing the larger Western market if they cater their design to Japan's changing tastes.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: EasyCure on February 10, 2010, 06:23:39 PM
You're both right. How very odd..
and a great analogy by BnM, i must say! *claps*
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ymeegod on February 11, 2010, 01:55:07 PM
Actually JRPGs are dying on consoles in Japan so 2 million is actually quite high. Most of Japan is on the move--meaning they tend to do more with handheld gaming then sitting at home. That's why the games like DQ DS games do so well.
FF is a popular title even stateside but other JRPG in general don't sell.
Kinda like focusing on the neighbors kids instead of your own, because the interest of your own kids have changed and eh neighbors kids still like what you are into. Family first.
;D I wouldn't associate neglecting my family with neglecting a bunch of strangers that happen to live in the same country as me. But again I think that's a culture thing. Japan is all about shame and honour and stuff like that.
We're talking about a country where it used to be customary to commit suicide rather than face the shame of being defeated by one's enemies. While America is more of a "last stand" country where if your enemies are going to kill you, you take as many down with you as you go.
The fact that Westerners like good Japanese games does suggest at least that Japanese devs should continue to make that style of games. I just don't want them to give up on that style because it's not so popular in their home country. And they could risk losing the larger Western market if they cater their design to Japan's changing tastes.
What Japanese Developers need to learn is that they can Curve tastes. If they people don't like it then they can learn to like it because thats all they'll get!
or perhaps thats whats going on right now, they push all this Japan-o-phile crap, and as it turns out they actually don't like it.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Pale on February 12, 2010, 08:51:53 AM
I wish I lived in world where a games success was based on whether or not it was good... not whether or not it sold enough copies to meet some arbitrary number that makes gamers think it was a fiscal success.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: KDR_11k on February 12, 2010, 11:00:39 AM
It's S-E who said FF13 would revive the market, not us. They said it'll be a financial success. Besides, nobody here has played it so all we can judge is the data we get.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Pale on February 12, 2010, 12:43:07 PM
I'm just going to walk away. Last time I stuck up for Final Fantasy on these forums, the world nearly exploded.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Peachylala on February 12, 2010, 01:45:51 PM
Pale, word of advice, don't stick up for any FF game after VII and you'll be just fine.
Just don't do that around the hardcorez of Final Fantasy fan brats.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 12, 2010, 02:05:10 PM
Is it revived yet?
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ymeegod on February 12, 2010, 04:28:13 PM
Actually there's reviews coming in and it's still rated quite high but alot of the cons for the game is against the genre itselt--meaning it's not the typical JRPG FF game. The story takes a back seat, there's no side missions for most of the game, and there's no towns/extra areas to explore. The plus is it's combat system is fast paced and keeps evoling intil the end of the game.
Not sure if I'm going love it like the rest of FF games but I'm going still play the game come March.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ian Sane on February 12, 2010, 05:24:00 PM
Quote
there's no side missions for most of the game, and there's no towns/extra areas to explore.
Finding out about this pretty much killed my interest in this game. This is what I play RPGs for. Those elements are the whole hook! Battles? That's the goddamn filler. That's the crap that has to be addressed. If RPGs are to be overhauled it's to get rid of time consuming level grinding and focus on exploration and puzzle solving.
This change sounds like one made to attract people who just play action games, that like to skip cutscenes and want just straightforward linear levels. If that's you want, RPGs aren't for you. Neither are adventure games like Zelda or Metroid.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 12, 2010, 05:27:34 PM
Actually it was done because it was taking far too long to create towns and other areas in the level of Detail that SE thought should be present in a FF game in HD.
Too many man hours going into making sure that every detail is perfect and unique. Time was ticking and the game needed to be released or worked on for yet another year.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Dirk Temporo on February 12, 2010, 06:18:48 PM
Pale, word of advice, don't stick up for any FF game after VII and you'll be just fine.
Just don't do that around the hardcorez of Final Fantasy fan brats.
IX was awesome.
So was X. In fact, aside from the minigames (which Square-Enix has never done well) it's my favorite Final Fantasy.
As for FF XIII, Ian, from what I hear from those who have actually played the game you don't really miss those things they took out when you play it. I'm going to give it a fair shot when it comes out next month, as it looks like the first good JRPG of this console generation (that will actually see release in North America, anyway).
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Stogi on February 13, 2010, 03:17:43 PM
I agree with Ian. My favorite RPG's are the ones with a **** ton of sidesquest. Even in FF X, I played the water soccer mini-game till I couldn't be beat....then I played it some more.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ymeegod on February 14, 2010, 12:39:45 AM
"the first good JRPG of this console generation " tales of vesperia and Eternal Sonata actually were my two fav's this generation.
FFXIII looks great but the story and character interactions are said to be poor at best. That's a big downer for me.
As for the combat, yeah I've played quite a few RPGs that were sole action ones---Diablo anyone? But yeah, for a FF game I always expected to see more towns and whatnot because it makes a better Fantasy setting. Anything to draw me in (people mention FFX blitz ball is a good example of that)--FFXIII doesn't seem to have that charm.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: broodwars on February 14, 2010, 12:55:18 AM
"the first good JRPG of this console generation " tales of vesperia and Eternal Sonata actually were my two fav's this generation.
I played Eternal Sonata on the PS3, and grew bored and quit a couple chapters in. It's just so exceptionally...bland. Strangely enough, I found the historical slideshows about Chopin's life to be more interesting than the actual story of the game.
As for Tales of Vesperia, I really want to play that game but Namco-Bandai are being morons and not bringing the PS3 version over here. And I'm not buying a RRoD machine just to play Vesperia.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ymeegod on February 14, 2010, 01:23:30 AM
Might not even bring over Tales of Graces neither (that's the lastest rumor). Some said if they don't announce it after E3 then it's not coming :(.
That was the charm of ES though--adding real life events into account--like you I loved the fun facts about Chopin.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Peachylala on February 14, 2010, 11:33:32 AM
Final Fantasy IX was good, but not great. I loved the characters (VIVI), and the entire setting, but the ATB battles without a full party were goddamn SLOW. Still, when you consider what the game has to contend with (VII/VIII) before it was released, this could be consider classic material.
Pale, word of advice, don't stick up for any FF game after VII and you'll be just fine.
Just don't do that around the hardcorez of Final Fantasy fan brats.
Yeah, I guess everyone should ignore the best FF of the series.....FFX.
Finally...someone else who agrees with me on FF X. ;) Yuna's story easily made up for the game's shortcomings (first half Tidus and Blitzball), IMO.
Well, in my opinion there wasn't a flaw in the game. The battle system was fun, the story was the most unique in the series in my opinion, and the characters were the most memorable since Final Fantasy VII. I really don't know how any Final Fantasy fan could not put this in their top 5 Final Fantasy list.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: KDR_11k on February 16, 2010, 03:28:01 AM
The battle system was sleep-inducingly boring. No proper fighting or making up tactics, just pure "use the matching attack against each enemy" because each of them had a weakness to one and only one attack which would then instantly defeat it.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Luigi Dude on February 16, 2010, 04:53:56 PM
The game's director Motomu Toriyamaadded: "We think many reviewers are looking at Final Fantasy XIII froma western point of view. When you look at most Western RPGs, they just dump you in a big open world, and let you do whatever you like... [It] becomes very difficult to tell a compelling story when you're given that much freedom."
The problem with this way of thinking is if the story isn't any good, then no one is going to want to keep playing. From most impressions I've heard, FFXIII is said to have a pretty poor storyline in which case, Square failed at what they were trying to do then.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Adrock on February 16, 2010, 05:07:42 PM
I've heard good things about the storyline even though my initial thoughts were "Ehh, I just don't care. This looks like Star Wars with a pink hair female Cloud."
The last FF I was able to finish was FFIX and that's only because it was a throwback to the good old-school FF games. My hope is that Nintendo/MIstwalker's The Last Story recaptures that feeling.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: iDraTion on February 23, 2010, 06:29:06 AM
If RPGs are to be overhauled it's to get rid of time consuming level grinding and focus on exploration and puzzle solving.
Or, you know, role-playing.
Haha, great point. I don't think any of the FF games really let you role-play anything because you don't get to create any significant part of your character and the characters they make are rarely very relateable. That's why I think RPG is fundamentally a misnomer, except in the case of a game like mass effect where role-playing is the point. I'll still play FFXIII, but mostly because I didn't have a PS2 and haven't played one since FFVII. The trailers make it look like it's supposed to have interesting character interactions between characters that will actually drive the story, but I'm still expecting Lightning to not remember her past and use friendship to overcome evil (which looks like it's going to be racism this go around instead of recreating a new world by destroying the current one). Wait, you mean that's every JRPG ever? No wonder no one in Japan cares about their games anymore.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ymeegod on May 31, 2010, 11:37:31 PM
Bleh, finally ended up renting FFXIII and have to say what is square thinking this generation? God awful, not sure what I hate most? The story and their stories is told is such way that it makes me beg for the good ole days. The plot really doesn't make as sense at all and I felt "stoopider" for just trying to follow. And then's the combat system/level up--what a POS that is, you basically only control one leader at a time (which is picked for you for the--I don't know--first 25 hours of the game) and you have an class system, think there's six types from physical, mage, healer, ect). The class system upgrade kinda sucks because you really can't focus your points the way you want to. Want to level up your healer, along the way there's plenty of nods for "strength" that you really don't need. Certain other bonuses require you level up other worthless classes just to get the "accessory slot". Then there's the Eidons or whatever those summons are called, you really can't use them all that much because only your lead character can call his/her summon and that requires alot of TP which takes multiple battles just to save up. Did I mention how your leader is picked for you 90% of the game :( .
Am I disappointed? Nope, well beyond that, felt like Squaresoft took a shot right at my manhood. First FF number game that isn't going in my collection.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: ThePerm on June 01, 2010, 03:08:34 AM
lust should be the name of the genre
Leveling Up Strategy & Tactics
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: broodwars on June 01, 2010, 03:08:52 AM
Bleh, finally ended up renting FFXIII and have to say what is square thinking this generation? God awful, not sure what I hate most? The story and their stories is told is such way that it makes me beg for the good ole days. The plot really doesn't make as sense at all and I felt "stoopider" for just trying to follow. And then's the combat system/level up--what a POS that is, you basically only control one leader at a time (which is picked for you for the--I don't know--first 25 hours of the game) and you have an class system, think there's six types from physical, mage, healer, ect). The class system upgrade kinda sucks because you really can't focus your points the way you want to. Want to level up your healer, along the way there's plenty of nods for "strength" that you really don't need. Certain other bonuses require you level up other worthless classes just to get the "accessory slot". Then there's the Eidons or whatever those summons are called, you really can't use them all that much because only your lead character can call his/her summon and that requires alot of TP which takes multiple battles just to save up. Did I mention how your leader is picked for you 90% of the game :( .
Am I disappointed? Nope, well beyond that, felt like Squaresoft took a shot right at my manhood. First FF number game that isn't going in my collection.
I'd spend a great deal of time addressing a lot of the problems you have with this game (and how there are very specific design reasons why Square made the game that way), but you know what? To hell with it, I don't care. I may have grown up on the older Final Fantasies, but I play them now and they just don't entertain me anymore. To some people (which may or may not include you), RPGs should never evolve past the mechanics and settings the genre has used for over 20 years, and the two camps will never agree on the issue so to each their own.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Pale on June 01, 2010, 02:34:36 PM
I know the cool thing is for Nintendo fans to hate 13, but I just wanted to pop in here and say. I've been playing it almost exclusively since it came out and it is one of my top 5 games of all time.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ymeegod on June 01, 2010, 04:53:22 PM
" RPGs should never evolve past the mechanics "
But an RPG should have RPG gameplay. This game is just about an rail-version of what used to be an RPG. You really don't get much choice at all in the game other than do you engage a few foes or simply go around them. They place limits on you, meaning you can't level up anyway you feel like until chapter 11 which is nearly at the end of the game. In fact the only challenge so far came out of the pluse plains (chapter 11 where you get your FIRST side quest in the game).
Hell up to that point I had the same equipment I was using at the begining of the game. Some of these monsters require you to grind a bit because their attacks can kill you with a single blow.
And I'm not talking about 20 year ole ideas neither, FFXII has a great gambit system compared to this POS AI helper. 80% of the time the autofight works ok but then there's times your allies cast either spells that are blocked or the enemy is immune (they do have the spelll for the enemy weakness no less). Also they don't use the higher level spells like they should, for example curaja or whatever. Frienldy AI will continue to cast the weaker cure spell (three times in a row) even though if you cast one curaja spell you'll heal more HP and the entire party to boot. You can't script them or even cast it manual which you COULD do in FFXII. Not to mention the whole "enusa" use too, yup about to DIE so my friendly AI decides to heal my pioson (which does so little damage it really doesn't matter) instead of my HP which is less than a quarter.
Then there's formations to complain about as well, you can't even move you one guy that you supposed to have control over during the battle, meaing you get bunched up together and there's ZERO you can do about it. Why does that bother me? In the plains (where I'm at now) there's plenty of bosses that attack in area blasts and having your team in one spot makes it impossible to win. All you can do is reload. There's zero formations :(.
There's plenty of good examples of realtime RPGs that dont have these issues, Dragon's Age comes to mind, and Squaresoft really isn't listening at all to the fans. Instead they releases this POS game for the masses instead of giving it time to flush out the gameplay/levels/ ect.
Damn, I know I'm ranting a bit but FF is my favorite series or at least was.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: broodwars on June 01, 2010, 05:56:51 PM
Ok, fine...I'll reply to all that properly (there are several core issues there you don't seem to understand) when I get home tonight, but suffice it to say you seem to be confusing Final Fantasy (which usually focuses on story with the illusion of choice) with Western-style RPGs (which usually focus on choice, IMO usually to the detriment of the story). Whatever Square may have teased with the 100 hour POS that was Final Fantasy XII and its Final Fantasy MMOs, Final Fantasy is probably never going to be like Dragon Age so if that's your kind of game I suggest you refrain from JRPGs.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ymeegod on June 01, 2010, 06:19:04 PM
"Final Fantasy is probably never going to be like Dragon Age so if that's your kind of game I suggest you refrain from JRPGs."
LOL, I was talking about one point of DA and it's formation, if you want I can even use JRPG too like any of the Tales series or hell I'll even fling back one of square's own--Parasite Eve. In those games you'll allowed to move your character during combat. In FFXIII it's done for you and like I stated, I wouldn't complain but there's issues like I stated about your characters bunching up while the enemy rains down area attacks.
Losing because you suck is one thing but losing because you have no control is another. In FF past games, there's formations (front/back) but in this one you'll sole means of defending from massive attacks is by using an sentinel class person. Alot of good that does when he (Snow in my case) ends up standing right next to my main character (Light). Basically had to redo alot of these harder missions (I'm doing the side quests on Pulse) simply because of that fact.
The only real saving grace about FFXIII to me is the autoheal and save/retry features. Namely every battle the character is fully healed and even if you fail you'll allow to retry the mission. Without this feature I doubt I would have stuck with the game until the end.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: broodwars on June 01, 2010, 06:26:09 PM
Losing because you suck is one thing but losing because you have no control is another. In FF past games, there's formations (front/back) but in this one you'll sole means of defending from massive attacks is by using an sentinel class person. Alot of good that does when he (Snow in my case) ends up standing right next to my main character (Light). Basically had to redo alot of these harder missions (I'm doing the side quests on Pulse) simply because of that fact.
If you're so concerned about AoE attacks (and if you're fighting what I suspect you're fighting you should be), just create a Paradigm with 3 Sentinels and switch to it when you see the enemy prepping a big attack. Wow, just like that your problems are solved, as it's pretty much just like using the "Defend" command in previous Final Fantasies. In fact, a great deal of the FF XIII combat system are commands and decisions from previous games under a macro-management level of abstraction.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ymeegod on June 01, 2010, 06:51:23 PM
"create a Paradigm with 3 Sentinels and switch to it when you see the enemy prepping a big attack. Wow, just like that your problems are solved, as it's pretty much just like using the "Defend" command in previous Final Fantasies. "
It's not charged attacks though, those Giants monsters on 11 (doesn't matter if it's dogs, elephants, or birdy) attack normally with area effects (the dog for example does a swipe with his paws that attacks everyone in front of him), namely my sole Sentinel has to draw their fire while attacking with the other two. Sometimes it works alright but that's up to the AI and where's he's standing.
Speaking of Paradigm, while I like the concept, I hate it when they force your party members on you because they always delete your assigned Paradigms which doesn't take to long to fix but I had to do that freaking FIVE times during one hour of gameplay (between chapters 10-11). Leave my party alone damnit.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: noname2200 on June 02, 2010, 12:08:47 PM
So dodging the debate about crappy game and old dinosaurs, can we all agree that Squeenix was wrong?
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Peachylala on June 02, 2010, 01:32:17 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Pale on June 02, 2010, 03:44:33 PM
Does it really matter if they were right or wrong though? Do we all really enjoy watching marketing speech end up incorrect? If so, we must all be extremely happy people.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: noname2200 on June 02, 2010, 06:24:33 PM
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ian Sane on June 03, 2010, 07:37:55 PM
I was initially considering buying FF13. I had just bought a PS3 and this was this big game due to come out soon so why not? But as I read into it I got turned off. It seemed like they had stripped out everything I liked about RPGs and had turned the game into a linear path. It looked like their attempt to revive RPGs was to put MORE focus on the story and graphics and presentation and cut out gameplay. Now maybe I'm not being fair to the actual final product since I didn't play it. But that's kind of the point, isn't it? They had turned me off so I didn't give it a full chance. I think it's likely that others might have been turned off in the same way.
Now I'm not against change in a videogame series. The fact that Final Fantasy always tinkers with their battle system and has a new cast of characters each time is something I think is great. But it sounded like they were just going for broke on the superfiscial stuff and, ooops, we don't have time for the actual game, better cut out the towns.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: broodwars on June 03, 2010, 08:00:15 PM
Now I'm not against change in a videogame series. The fact that Final Fantasy always tinkers with their battle system and has a new cast of characters each time is something I think is great. But it sounded like they were just going for broke on the superfiscial stuff and, ooops, we don't have time for the actual game, better cut out the towns.
Considering that Final Fantasy has never made towns altogether interesting places (even Rabanaster in FF XII, which is probably the best one the series has ever done), I don't mind the loss of them. They're just places that exist for you to run around without fighting, engaging in tedious banter with people who don't matter and never contribute anything to the story, and provide the player with places to loot and buy crap. As for "cutting out gameplay", there's plenty there just with a focus on management and ensuring your party is always in the optimal configuration for any given situation. People just like to whine because it's done differently than Final Fantasy's ever done it before; because it's not what they expected; and because it's not how the genre's always been done (that apparently makes it a bad idea for some reason). It's somewhat amusing, because I'll read these complaints from people, and often then they'll turn right around and praise a spectacularly mediocre or bad RPG like Resonance of Fate or something, just because it's more "traditional."
It's a shame that it doesn't look like FF XIII will appeal to you, Ian, because it is an excellent game. I've been playing RPGs or RPG-like games since I was 5, so in terms of the genre I've seen it all by now. FF XIII tries to tackle the genre from a relatively new angle, and that's something that appeals to me. I just wish the story was more compelling than it is. FF X still blows it away in that regard, even if I enjoy the FF XIII battle and character development mechanics a lot more.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Nick DiMola on June 03, 2010, 09:25:57 PM
Final Fantasy XIII had an amazing battle system. I too have played far too many RPGs, and FFXIII was a breath of fresh air. The designers clearly took a moment to analyze what it is you do in an RPG for the majority of the time, and they streamlined that experience beautifully in the game.
While I won't disagree that the game was extremely linear, most RPGs are also linear, they just do a better job of pretending they're not. The bottom line for me was that the combat and story were so much more interesting than your typical RPG that I was able to completely ignore the linearity and just enjoy the finely crafted parts of the game.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: KDR_11k on June 04, 2010, 03:25:48 AM
Dunno, I really liked the combat in Resonance of Fate and it's not just "hit attack until everybody's dead" (unless the enemies are so far below your level that you can't be arsed to really bother with them but even then you have to watch for things like removing front armor before bringing in the SMG).
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ian Sane on June 04, 2010, 12:16:10 PM
Quote
They're just places that exist for you to run around without fighting, engaging in tedious banter with people who don't matter and never contribute anything to the story, and provide the player with places to loot and buy crap.
For me that stuff you just mentioned is a big part of the appeal of RPGs for me. The battles and grinding and stuff all feels like filler to pad the game. It may be that Square Enix underestimated what people like and don't like about RPGs and cut out the wrong stuff.
Nick mentioned that while all RPGs are linear, they usually do a better job of pretending they're not. I think that's dead on. Hell, all videogames are linear if you think about it. It's just a difference of the path being a straight line or a zig-zagging one where you have to backtrack.
As I said, I haven't played it so I can't really judge the game itself. But if we're looking back and wondering why it didn't sell like expected I'm providing a reason why I didn't buy it and maybe that applies to others as well.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Pale on June 04, 2010, 12:24:39 PM
For me, RPGs are all about the feeling of accomplishment that comes with player growth and the movie like story telling.
That's why I love 13. The linearity makes for wonderful story telling. Character improvement is extremely fluid. The removal of mana means you can see all the fancy new abilities a lot. And I like noticing the players use the new abilities randomly in their AI.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: broodwars on June 04, 2010, 12:32:17 PM
Out of curiosity since you like FF XIII, Pale, have you played Valkyria Chronicles yet? That game's awesome, and a great example of a company looking at how to move the RPG genre forward by incorporating elements of other genres. It's essentially a Tactical Strategy RPG that plays like a 3rd person shooter, with a very streamlined Exp. system that means you only have to grind if you really want to.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: KDR_11k on June 04, 2010, 01:23:50 PM
For me accomplishment is about what I do, not what my characters do. If it's stat-based I only take pride in it if it takes my skill at assembling something (Stratosphere's fortresses, Banjo & Kazooie's cars, Resonance of Fate's weapon upgrades). In RoF the stats are based much more on the crazy crap you stick on your guns than the experience points of your characters (in fact the only level I even care about is the SMG level because that translates to a damage multipler - with the right upgrades on the gun). When playing Dungeon Maker at first I also felt challenged and pushed to operate at the limit but that feeling went away not much later.
Of course there's always Dawn of War 2 to point at. Best SRPG I've played.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Pale on June 04, 2010, 01:56:02 PM
I checked out the demo of Valkyria Chronicles and liked it, but haven't picked it up. It's honestly extremely difficult for a game to get in my systems at this point. I have less free time than I used to, and I enjoy playing the games I do for extended periods of time (coming up on three months of playing FF 13 at least three times a week).
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ymeegod on June 07, 2010, 11:33:33 PM
"People just like to whine because it's done differently than Final Fantasy's ever done it before; because it's not what they expected; and because it's not how the genre's always been done"
Actually, I didn't mind the chances the took with FFX-2 (one of the few on this forum that seemed to play it) or even with FFXII. I just don't see why the scrap the good, example would be FFXII gambit system, just to get something "fresh". I call foul when there's something stinky in the air.
In fact this whole generation, Square has let me down: Infinite Undiscovery, Star Ocean 4, Last Remnant (didn't even bother to finish this one), Nier, and finally FF Crystal Bearers. The only decent title in that lot was maybe SO4 (it's passable at least). There's a few DS/PSP titles that are worth a damn but Squaresoft used to one of those publishers that I had to buy every game on release day but now they are some third rated joke who continue to sell high based on past fame.
Speaking of VC--now there's a game I can wholly support. Going replay it after I finish up Oblivion and I think I might even download the new missions (think there's 4 DLC packs now).
When does VC2 for the PSP come out?
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: broodwars on June 07, 2010, 11:36:48 PM
I think sometime this Fall, but I haven't cared enough to check. I'm not buying a PSP just to play a watered-down and slugged with the JRPG cliche stick (yay...they're all in school now...because that's entirely new and fresh) sequel to a game I really loved on the PS3.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 10, 2010, 07:22:51 PM
Bill: "saving the japanese gaming industry am i rite"
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: KDR_11k on June 17, 2010, 02:02:25 AM
I think by now we shouldn't be surprised to see massive discounts in Japan, it's just how their market works.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: Ymeegod on June 17, 2010, 09:59:27 PM
VC2 has a date now: August 11th. :)
As for the whole school class room thing, yeah alot of games have that (persona anyone) but it might have a twist because it's a military school. Instead of math--you'll have ballistics, ect. :).
While, I'm not the biggest fan of the PSP, it does have some games worth checking out and you can get the system really cheap sub-100 easy. Can't blame Sega for not making a proper sequel though, the sales didn't fare well and I'll take this over NOTHING at all like Skies of Arcadia :(.
Title: Re: Square Enix expects FF13 to revive Japanese console market
Post by: ThePerm on June 17, 2010, 11:06:58 PM
