Gaming Forums => General Gaming => Topic started by: S-U-P-E-R on July 02, 2009, 06:05:20 AM
Title: Rape Games and You
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 02, 2009, 06:05:20 AM
Over the past few months, I've had a number of (sometimes heated) conversations where I felt compelled to defend criminals, messy roommates, etc., and it has led me to spend a lot of time thinking about exactly how far we should defend the rights of others in cases where it does not immediately seem to be in our best interests. Basically, I came to the conclusion that defending the rights of even the most heinous of people is important because you are basically defending your own rights as well. It might seem familiar if you read this: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/professor-sirlin-and-the-fourth-amendment.html
Right now, in Japan, there is some sort of movement in the game biz to drastically limit what can be put in porn games. Those who know me might also know why I might take issue with this sort of thing, but at the same time, it's easy to consider that a game where you rape a kid is truly AUGH-inducing and that Japan is silly because it's some CRAZY CULTURE in a far off land that may as well be on the moon and as such, neither of these things really affect us.
But to not care is lazy and irresponsible. One should make an effort to learn and consider about the far-reaching implications of laws, actions, and inactions anywhere in society. I used to not care about certain legal hot topics, like guns, abortion, gay rights, banking industry oversights, whatever, but when you start paying attention, you put the pieces together and figure out how these things affect you, hopefully without becoming the victim of a hate crime or losing your 401k.
Here are the bare facts, as I understand them: - The mainstream Japanese media caught on to the fact that RapeLay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapelay) exists. - The game company and the EOCS (like ESRB/CERO for JPN PC games) all freak about and pull the game from shelves - EOCS starts knee-jerk rewrite of all regulations and now only missionary position through a hole in the sheet between two married, consenting adults is allowed in games - The Japanese government also cares, now
Here is why you should care about even the slightest chance of the bustling Japanese rape game industry of being shut down: lots of other games and nice things come from Japan and any one of them could be negatively affected. The new EOCS regulations are very disturbing in how vague and expansive they are. I don't think FF7 and GTA4 would pass them cleanly. Video games have versions on multiple platforms, including Japanese PCs, and also multiple regions, including where you live. Intellectual properties appear in games, movies, books, and everything. One small regulation can actually affect everything.
I'm going to urge you to start caring about this, and leave you with a quote from a popular, smart person (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html):
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If you accept -- and I do -- that freedom of speech is important, then you are going to have to defend the indefensible. That means you are going to be defending the right of people to read, or to write, or to say, what you don't say or like or want said.
The Law is a huge blunt weapon that does not and will not make distinctions between what you find acceptable and what you don't. This is how the Law is made.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: KDR_11k on July 02, 2009, 07:05:47 AM
I see a point in restricting rights that infringe on the rights of others but the content in a game doesn't do that. Banning taking other people's property makes sense, even banning insults can make some sense if you want to protect the victim's dignity but banning the depiction of virtual rape? Who's being hurt by that? I doubt the voice actors are getting tortured for their performance, they get a paycheck. You could argue against including characters who look a lot like real people without asking the real people but these characters are completely imaginary.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Stratos on July 02, 2009, 08:12:55 AM
I think that would be something I'd have to wrestle with in the rape game scenario. I'm uncomfortable with those things.
But I understand and agree with you on the matter of allowing dissenting voices to be heard. That is one of the things I am grateful of here in America since we have all of these freedoms versus certain other countries where a political opposition leader is considered a criminal for running against the incumbent *cough*Zimbabwe*cough*. Here you can protest matters or you can support them.
I think of what Benjamin Franklin said about how those who want to give up freedom do not deserve it. But even so, I am torn because I not only don't care about it, I detest it.
This brings questions of whether of not acting those things out in pretend actually cause people to do them in real life. I think most of us will agree that sane adults can tell the difference and refrain from performing any crazy videogame action in real life. But is it different in a pornographic setting? Would these strong, primal urges overcome people's minds and they fall in to the real deal? But then again, anger is a primal emotion as well, isn't it? How do people become rapists in the firstplace? I don't remember much from some psych reading I did but didn't a famous serial rapist say that he started doing it because he got tired of all the pretend stuff he did? Or is that similar to the kids who tried to blame GTA on their crime spree?
Also what of people with mental issues. Do we have a way to protect themselves and others from their actions? Or do we just say it is a fact of life and everything runs the risk of leading to tragedy and we should just accept it. But this is a unique case. We are sacrificing children, children in this matter if there is a risk. And to sacrifice children for freedom is something I do not think I can do. In my mind it would be no different that those old traditions and cultures that burned their children for their gods.
But all that aside. What could we do to change this? For most of us, it is not our country nor our government. Online petitions have failed in the past and what would it do? Could we generate enough international political clout to force them to change their ways? I see and understand the potential implications, but even if I could muster the desire, what can a regualr person do?
On a final note, this topic could very easily turn into a political/religious/ideological flame war so lets be extra careful with our posts. It's an interesting thought and I don't want to see the thread go up in smoke.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Deguello on July 02, 2009, 09:10:41 AM
Limiting speech is already a practice in supposedly "free societies," even the freest. The only thing that cannot be done to you for speaking undesirably is be thrown in jail simply for speaking it.
What are slander and libel laws but a limitation on free speech? If I disseminated information about, say, Neil Gaiman that he was found in bed with 3 boys, one of whom mysteriously died the next day, you can bet he and his company would be after me for slander or libel, should I be a major news outlet or important enough person.
Free speech does not equate to product on shelves. Free Speech is just free speech. These guys could even freely distribute it on the internet (which is probably how most of their customers prefer it) and call it art if they wish. But they are not entitled to having a product on shelves for sale as a part of "free speech." We had this go around once before with Manhunt 2. They didn't go down the slippery slop then, so why now?
This is a case where I believe it's in the best interests of gamers to pick our battles and ditch these fools. What were these guys thinking? I mean the game's got "RAPE" in the title. Jesus. Get a brain, morans. Jumping to the defense of this will make an enemy of the women's groups who hate rape enough in movies in TV, but will absolutely demonize video games by proxy, just because of the interactivity involved.
And just on a personal level, what would I get for "defending the indefensible" here? A gold star? I don't play these games so why should I care? And why are you asking anybody here to care? What can they do about it? What Japan does is its business.
And KDR, one can argue that the "victim" is society at large in this case. A similar idea is mountaintop removal where there is no "victim" per se, but it desecrates the land and drives down property values. Also animal abuse is another "victimless crime" because animals are legally the property of the owner and can be put into dogfights, except for the fact that that is illegal.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: KDR_11k on July 02, 2009, 09:13:58 AM
The people-will-act-it-out argument has been applied to pretty much every medium by now and it has always been bullshit. Even if it does occasionally cause a crime that still doesn't warrant a ban, cigarettes kill thousands of people every year and they're still legal.
Animals are still living beings with feelings that can perceive pain, the virtual images in a rape game aren't. An animal can at least be considered a victim, as can the environment but a completely virtual image?
If retailers don't want to stock a game that's their business, online sales should still be legal though.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Deguello on July 02, 2009, 09:57:43 AM
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The people-will-act-it-out argument has been applied to pretty much every medium by now and it has always been bull****.
I can prove that a work of fiction has irrevocably changed the way humans behave. Before Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, police work was guesswork at best. All they did was interview people and witnesses. Sherlock Holmes, a fictional character, laid down the idea that the crime scene itself had be undisturbed, that scientific analysis provided more evidence than simple testimony. Every police agency afterward has basically adopted all of these principles to heart. Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle," about a fictional socialist-leaning meat-packer, literally created, by itself, the Pure Food and Drug Act and the Food and Drug Administration.
If we can agree that non-interactive fiction has a positive impact, then interactive fiction can have SOME impact, positive or negative. And games where you rape a child with little recompense and empower a rapist could definitely have a negative impact.
And sure, online "sales" should still be legal. Of course, most of their online customers probably torrented it anyway. Lie down with dogs, etc.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: BranDonk Kong on July 02, 2009, 10:21:15 AM
Killing people can be morally (though not legally) justified - raping kids will never be. I think they should ban these games, no question about it. And yes, if it ever leads to one crime, then it should be banned.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Morari on July 02, 2009, 10:33:23 AM
The people-will-act-it-out argument has been applied to pretty much every medium by now and it has always been bull****.
I can prove that a work of fiction has irrevocably changed the way humans behave.
So can I, but we're not allowed to talk about religion on the forums.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 02, 2009, 10:41:15 AM
I agree largely with what Gaiman said in his blog. The law is never written precisely enough to excise the exact thing you don't want. If these games are banned what other depictions will be banned in games?
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Caliban on July 02, 2009, 10:55:26 AM
Every nation should ban first-person/third-person shooters because killing is a crime.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Deguello on July 02, 2009, 11:09:17 AM
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I agree largely with what Gaiman said in his blog. The law is never written precisely enough to excise the exact thing you don't want. If these games are banned what other depictions will be banned in games?
That's a slippery slope fallacy. Why outlaw thievery? If you outlaw thievery, what else will you outlaw?! Drinking Coke on the porch?!
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 02, 2009, 11:19:15 AM
Rape-games? State-level law. Though government regulation of video games sounds like the worst day of my life.
Japan, do whatever the **** you want.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: KDR_11k on July 02, 2009, 11:25:21 AM
The people-will-act-it-out argument has been applied to pretty much every medium by now and it has always been bull****.
I can prove that a work of fiction has irrevocably changed the way humans behave. Before Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, police work was guesswork at best. All they did was interview people and witnesses. Sherlock Holmes, a fictional character, laid down the idea that the crime scene itself had be undisturbed, that scientific analysis provided more evidence than simple testimony. Every police agency afterward has basically adopted all of these principles to heart. Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle," about a fictional socialist-leaning meat-packer, literally created, by itself, the Pure Food and Drug Act and the Food and Drug Administration.
There's a slight difference between providing interesting thoughts that a reasonable person thinks are useful and the claim that a certain medium has a specific subliminal effect despite the alledged effect only appearing in a rare few individuals out of millions of people subjected to the same influences.
Killing people can be morally (though not legally) justified - raping kids will never be. I think they should ban these games, no question about it. And yes, if it ever leads to one crime, then it should be banned.
Should we apply the same "one crime = ban it all" logic to everything that doesn't have a majority representation in the voterbase? Why not ban the Qu'ran then or any other holy scripture belonging to a minority religion? Tyranny of the majority is fine until you're no longer part of the majority.
Besides, there's plenty of killing in videogames that is not morally justified. How is it justified to kill random people in GTA? Should we ban GTA? Maybe any game in which the player is not a morally clean hero of the land?
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 02, 2009, 11:33:18 AM
I agree largely with what Gaiman said in his blog. The law is never written precisely enough to excise the exact thing you don't want. If these games are banned what other depictions will be banned in games?
That's a slippery slope fallacy. Why outlaw thievery? If you outlaw thievery, what else will you outlaw?! Drinking Coke on the porch?!
What proof do you have that there is some sort of fallacy here? I'm not saying it's a slippery slope, I'm saying that what happens when they write the law? Is it going to say "No Rape Games" or is it going to say "No crude depiction of sexual acts in games"? If it's the latter, it will restrict other types of depictions in games that have no need to be restricted.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 02, 2009, 11:36:17 AM
I agree largely with what Gaiman said in his blog. The law is never written precisely enough to excise the exact thing you don't want. If these games are banned what other depictions will be banned in games?
That's a slippery slope fallacy. Why outlaw thievery? If you outlaw thievery, what else will you outlaw?! Drinking Coke on the porch?!
What proof do you have that there is some sort of fallacy here? I'm not saying it's a slippery slope, I'm saying that what happens when they write the law? Is it going to say "No Rape Games" or is it going to say "No crude depiction of sexual acts in games"? If it's the latter, it will restrict other types of depictions in games that have no need to be restricted.
When they right a law, also look for the reprocussions of the regulation to follow. It's generally a disaster when the fed. gov starts regulating market products, prices go up. eww
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Morari on July 02, 2009, 11:39:38 AM
Why not ban the Qu'ran then or any other holy scripture belonging to a minority religion?
You realize that Islam is the second largest religion in the world, right? I'd hardly call that a minority. If you wanted to take it even further, you could even say that it is part of the largest religion on the planet, as it's really just another branch of the same tree that Christianity and Judaism grew on. Same basic principles, same deity, different prophets.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Deguello on July 02, 2009, 11:54:58 AM
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It's generally a disaster when the fed. gov starts regulating market products, prices go up. eww
Yeah just look at what deregulation did for gasoline in the past years.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 02, 2009, 12:03:00 PM
And just on a personal level, what would I get for "defending the indefensible" here? A gold star? I don't play these games so why should I care? And why are you asking anybody here to care? What can they do about it? What Japan does is its business.
I think I made it pretty clear why you should care, and that was my main point. Japan is a first-world country and one of our closest buddies (and definitely our best international buddy in the world of video games). It's not a far off silly moonland, it's a real place that rolls out a lot of real culture and literature and it should distress you when their free speech is restricted.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 02, 2009, 12:04:53 PM
Japan was crazy before, and this regulatory movement is an all new kind of crazy for them.
The products were supposedly "under their radar" for so long, then they suddenly do a 180? Wow.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Deguello on July 02, 2009, 12:05:20 PM
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quit talking about politics
sdfjkbasdyuhbvfausfbaksjbfsa AARGEAHRA What's this thread about, then?! DIE.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 02, 2009, 12:06:20 PM
It's about video games!! Mostly!!
Also rape
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 02, 2009, 12:07:26 PM
rei-pu gei-mu
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: BranDonk Kong on July 02, 2009, 12:49:34 PM
Comparing the Qu'ran, which is a religious piece of work, to a video game doesn't make sense. The Qu'ran never makes light of suicide bombings or raping children. These games are borderline kiddy porn - borderline because there are no actual children in them, but there are certainly dudes in Asia (and I'm sure all over the world) playing these games with one hand and jerking off with the other.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: KDR_11k on July 02, 2009, 01:41:57 PM
Why not ban the Qu'ran then or any other holy scripture belonging to a minority religion?
You realize that Islam is the second largest religion in the world, right? I'd hardly call that a minority. If you wanted to take it even further, you could even say that it is part of the largest religion on the planet, as it's really just another branch of the same tree that Christianity and Judaism grew on. Same basic principles, same deity, different prophets.
Minority in our countries, obviously not globally. I wanted to go Godwin on it basically :P.
Comparing the Qu'ran, which is a religious piece of work, to a video game doesn't make sense. The Qu'ran never makes light of suicide bombings or raping children. These games are borderline kiddy porn - borderline because there are no actual children in them, but there are certainly dudes in Asia (and I'm sure all over the world) playing these games with one hand and jerking off with the other.
But the argument against excepting child pornography from any freedoms is that its production hurts children. That's clearly not the case here.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Ian Sane on July 02, 2009, 01:45:21 PM
I am strongly against censorship. If that becomes normal and acceptable you know those in charge will go too far. If I've learned anything in life it's that extremists hijack everything. It's not the reasonable person that dictates this stuff, it's the raving crazy.
When GTA: San Andreas had the whole hot coffee thing I thought it was bullshit that that company was getting in trouble over a hack. For me though it was entirely because it was NOT part of the game and that the ESRB was immediately bending over backwards to the very people that it was supposedly created to protect the videogame industry from. The whole idea was that the industry police itself so that the government doesn't do it for them but hot coffee hit and politicians are demanding this and that and the ESRB gave in. Why not just hand the regulation to the government if you're going to cave in to their irrational reactions?
But when Rockstar was getting flack for Manhunt I was mad at them for making gamers look bad. Yeah we SHOULD have the freedom to make whatever game we want but we really don't. So be smart and don't upset the hornets nest. We used to have to fight to have blood and now we have games with swearing and nudity and all we have to do is put a sticker with the letter 'M' on it on the case. You may consider that stuff exploitive but it doesn't have to be. Flims have the freedom to use nudity, violence or language in tasteful ways. Gaming doesn't always (or even often) do that but it now can and that's a good thing. It took a long time to get to that point and all it takes is some exploitative schlock to **** everything up. Having a snuff film videogame was at the point where even though I support the right to make it, it just made everyone fighting against censorship in videogames look like pigs.
This is a thousand times worse. Should we have the right to make this game? Yes. But defending it will make it look like we're all into rape sims when we're not. Supporting it will make all of us look bad. So **** it. Throw these idiots to the wolves and disassociate ourselves from them because they're just going to ruin it for the rest of us. Things are not secure enough yet for us to stand our ground on something like this. Damning the rape game is probably going to give us more credibility than using it to stand up against censorship. When fighting against censorship for films you don't point out porn, you point out something like Midnight Cowboy. To get people on our side we need to point out the great videogame art that will censored not the exploitative trash. "Fight against censorship by supporting the rape game" is going to have the opposite effect.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 02, 2009, 04:25:19 PM
This is a thousand times worse. Should we have the right to make this game? Yes. But defending it will make it look like we're all into rape sims when we're not. Supporting it will make all of us look bad. So **** it. Throw these idiots to the wolves and disassociate ourselves from them because they're just going to ruin it for the rest of us. Things are not secure enough yet for us to stand our ground on something like this. Damning the rape game is probably going to give us more credibility than using it to stand up against censorship. When fighting against censorship for films you don't point out porn, you point out something like Midnight Cowboy. To get people on our side we need to point out the great videogame art that will censored not the exploitative trash. "Fight against censorship by supporting the rape game" is going to have the opposite effect.
There have been some good arguments in this thread but I have to agree with Ian here.
Even the most heinous of American cinema has never popularized a movie that follows a protagonist who rapes children and expects the audience to not find it repulsive. Movies like that exist somewhere, I'm sure, but you don't see anyone defending them or lumping them in with mainstream cinema.
The way I see it, the reality is that public outcry is going to startle politicians and they'll immediately go looking for answers about what the hell is going on.
The message we want to send should be "99.9% of games aren't like this!", not to come across as defending rape games in any way, shape or form. You have to remember that we're not talking about rational people here. Rational people would understand the argument that free speech must be applied to all things. Irrational people, however, will not understand this argument and will interpret it as gamers saying they see nothing wrong with rape games.
The other real issue here is that we're talking about a medium that has yet to be established as artistic in the mainstream view. Most people either view videogames as an enjoyable hobby, a device for promoting social togetherness and well-being (thanks to the Wii and its blue ocean) or devices designed to turn children into serial killers.
I've yet to see a game ad posting review taglines like, "Powerful.", "An emotional thrill ride." or "Heartwarming.", probably because the mainstream just doesn't yet view the medium as something that can hit their emotions just as hard as any movie or book.
So yeah, I agree that defending this would basically be viewed as throwing our lot in with the developers of rape games when we should be doing everything we can to distance ourselves from them. Games already aren't viewed as being art or having any redeeming social value. Sending the message of support for rape games would be the last nail in the coffin for gaming's chance at rising above its current mainstream view and would bring the government down on the gaming industry like an anvil on a watermelon.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 02, 2009, 08:57:55 PM
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The message we want to send should be "99.9% of games aren't like this!", not to come across as defending rape games in any way, shape or form. You have to remember that we're not talking about rational people here. Rational people would understand the argument that free speech must be applied to all things. Irrational people, however, will not understand this argument and will interpret it as gamers saying they see nothing wrong with rape games.
I don't believe we should try to appeal to irrational people nor make exception for them. We should fight them, vigorously. I'm not worried about how well video games are established as art or anything else, because the business is just way too huge at this point.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Stratos on July 02, 2009, 09:01:26 PM
The message we want to send should be "99.9% of games aren't like this!", not to come across as defending rape games in any way, shape or form. You have to remember that we're not talking about rational people here. Rational people would understand the argument that free speech must be applied to all things. Irrational people, however, will not understand this argument and will interpret it as gamers saying they see nothing wrong with rape games.
I don't believe we should try to appeal to irrational people nor make exception for them. We should fight them, vigorously. I'm not worried about how well video games are established as art or anything else, because the business is just way too huge at this point.
But didn't something like this happen to comics back in the 50's or something? They got severely crippeled by government regulation.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 02, 2009, 09:12:44 PM
You couldn't even have comic books with totally awesome zombies in them and a number of companies went out of business.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 02, 2009, 09:27:26 PM
Rape games provide a non-criminal outlet for such fantasies... I don't think banning them will improve anything, and may even make things worse because that outlet is gone. People who play video games are lethargic lazy couch-potatoes who don't have the willpower to get off their ass and hurt someone, so I say let them be.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Stratos on July 02, 2009, 11:20:21 PM
Rape games provide a non-criminal outlet for such fantasies... I don't think banning them will improve anything, and may even make things worse because that outlet is gone. People who play video games are lethargic lazy couch-potatoes who don't have the willpower to get off their ass and hurt someone, so I say let them be.
Have you ever seen those news headlines where someone killed someone else in the realword because of an bad deal in an MMO? There have been a number of these incidents in Asia. I think Japan and Korea for a couple of them if I recall.
People are people. I don't discount anyone to be unable to do anything. Call me a cynic, but when someone snaps and kills people, and the neighbors get interviewed and say "They were such a nice person, I would have never thought they could do something like this" I'm not surprised. There are so many elements and enotions involved that anyone could be pushed to the brink if the right buttons are pushed.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 02, 2009, 11:56:03 PM
I don't buy into the idea that entertainment media is either an outlet or an agent of influence. The evidence is zero and even the retarded anecdotes are in like the single digits. It basically exists as just entertainment and does relatively little to influence our (deviant) behavior.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: KDR_11k on July 03, 2009, 04:27:08 AM
I think we should point at schemes like internet censorship. Germany and Australia introduced that to block child porn and pretty quickly politicians got the idea to use the censoring to block violent videogames.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Stratos on July 03, 2009, 06:17:37 AM
Is that really where the game censorship there came from? I didn't know that.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: KDR_11k on July 03, 2009, 10:52:19 AM
No, the ratings were before then but both countries are implementing internet censorship now. I don't think games have been banned yet but the politicians want to do it...
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 03, 2009, 02:38:08 PM
I don't believe we should try to appeal to irrational people nor make exception for them. We should fight them, vigorously. I'm not worried about how well video games are established as art or anything else, because the business is just way too huge at this point.
I don't believe in doing anything for them either, but sadly a lot of the people in power tend to be incredibly irrational and easily bullied into doing things for legions of other irrational people who will cry bloody murder at the idea of a rape game.
Yeah, the business is huge, but I don't want to see what would happen in a battle between the government and the gaming industry. The industry has nothing to gain and literally everything to lose.
I don't think games have been banned yet but the politicians want to do it...
This is my primary concern. Jack Thompson is a nutcase who thoroughly failed to actually persuade anyone to his side.
But there are far smarter, more determined politicians who would likewise see tougher restrictions tossed upon gaming and if they got it into their thick heads that games in general are all about enacting violent rape fantasies, we could kiss the ESRB goodbye because it'll be a foregone conclusion to these people that the ESRB wasn't doing its job, even if these games are only being sold and rated in Japan.
I think he sums it up pretty well. You can't argue with these people. Trying to defend rape games as a valid part of the medium due to freedom of speech, to these people, would be like trying to teach a monkey long division.
We're far better off distancing ourselves and the medium from rape games and convincing more people to buy Wiis.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 03, 2009, 03:17:39 PM
Let's get away from the religious discussion everybody. That's a one-way ticket to Threadlockville.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 03, 2009, 07:57:48 PM
Let's get away from the religious discussion everybody. That's a one-way ticket to Threadlockville.
You'd think an entire thread based around politics would already be purchasing that boarding pass...
Morari, I really like how you've gone from a terrible to good poster since you registered and wish I had expressed this earlier but right now you're 3 for 3 on awful, irrelevant posts in this thread. Can you just say what you think about my assertions in my OP? tia~
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 04, 2009, 03:10:09 AM
I think he sums it up pretty well. You can't argue with these people. Trying to defend rape games as a valid part of the medium due to freedom of speech, to these people, would be like trying to teach a monkey long division.
Pretty sure that's the exact opposite of what he said in that vid, in which he encourages us to argue a lot and not roll over like babies. Although that vid was a long and insane propaganda-like video, he is right that the freedom of game design is automatically the winning side of the argument vs censored content and the only way to lose that argument in the arena of debate is to be a fuckup. I believe that accepting a ban on a type of game (even an awful one) rather than standing firm on a no-censorship policy would be fucking up -because- things we actually do like would be censored as well. Ergo, Smash_Brother is wrong and I am right.
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We're far better off distancing ourselves and the medium from rape games and convincing more people to buy Wiis.
baby joke goes here
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 04, 2009, 05:24:30 AM
Fine.
We can look to the constitution for guidance on this one. Firstly, rape games would fall under social issue, defaulting it to 10th Amendment material, in other words, laws about rape games are state level exclusively. SO, under the 1st Amendment the FEDERAL government cannot make them illegal, however, state level it is up to the inhabitants of that state to decide.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Morari on July 04, 2009, 08:04:10 AM
Let's get away from the religious discussion everybody. That's a one-way ticket to Threadlockville.
You'd think an entire thread based around politics would already be purchasing that boarding pass...
Morari, I really like how you've gone from a terrible to good poster since you registered and wish I had expressed this earlier but right now you're 3 for 3 on awful, irrelevant posts in this thread. Can you just say what you think about my assertions in my OP? tia~
Ah, you really mean that? I'm about to tear up over here. :)
Anyway, so as to not remain completely irrelevant. I think that rape games (much like Jerry Bruckheimer films) are tasteless and should not have any place in this world. Likewise, the people that play them are, at best, extremely insensitive. The psuedo-pedophilia that the Japanese seem to add to much of their erotic materials only furthers the general taste of disgust involved. That said, I do not believe that the games should be banned or limited in any capacity. the games do not harm anyone, nor do I truly believe that they could lead to someone's harm through persuasion. This is true for any video game, book, film, or boardgame. Inanimate objects do not hurt people. Choose-your-own-adventure-books cannot hurt people. Guns cannot hurt people. Videogames certainly cannot hurt people. Only people hurt other people. Crack down on the rapists, not the questionable products that some short-sighted developer threw out.
If we do not fight this now, it will only spread. While I do believe that Ian was correct in some regards in his post above, I think that disassociating oneself from the fold would only open the floodgate for more, even dumber legislation later down the road. The fact of the matter is that nothing should be officially prohibited by anyone unless it does actual, physical harm to someone in a non-consenting manner. Videogames do not fit that descriptor, much like several substances and activities that we do currently have limiting laws placed upon. Slippery slopes generally go downhill.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Rize on July 04, 2009, 03:06:01 PM
The same argument can be used in support of legalizing all drugs. Prohibit and arrest people for illegal behavior, not for taking a substance that makes them more likely to commit illegal behavior.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: KDR_11k on July 04, 2009, 04:17:43 PM
We can look to the constitution for guidance on this one. Firstly, rape games would fall under social issue, defaulting it to 10th Amendment material, in other words, laws about rape games are state level exclusively. SO, under the 1st Amendment the FEDERAL government cannot make them illegal, however, state level it is up to the inhabitants of that state to decide.
Doesn't the SCOTUS interpret the first amendment to mean both federal and state levels? Many videogame restriction laws got shot down by that. However they also arbitrarily decide that porn has no value and is therefore not speech. I'd say objectivism is clearly devoid of any value but I doubt they'd let me ban Ayn Rand...
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Morari on July 04, 2009, 07:37:46 PM
The same argument can be used in support of legalizing all drugs. Prohibit and arrest people for illegal behavior, not for taking a substance that makes them more likely to commit illegal behavior.
It can be used for that, and should. It is again a matter of no one being harmed outside of those who consent to it (such as the users). Instead, we heighten the criminal activity surrounding said products and substances specifically because they are illegal. Besides, think of all of the tax revenue involved in legalizing everything! We could have something decent, like a working health care system. :P
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: KDR_11k on July 05, 2009, 02:20:06 AM
Legalized drugs should still go through FDA testing which they'll probably fail hard.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 05, 2009, 02:40:16 AM
anybody play any sweet games about drug use lately?
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 05, 2009, 02:49:04 AM
Actually, can someone answer this question for me? Does CERO or EOCS rate PC games that aren't hentai games/visual novels? Like the PC ports of Guilty Gear or Phoenix Wright, for example.
Also, fun fact: almost-popular fighting game Melty Blood is basically a spinoff of a hentai game
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 05, 2009, 03:06:36 AM
We can look to the constitution for guidance on this one. Firstly, rape games would fall under social issue, defaulting it to 10th Amendment material, in other words, laws about rape games are state level exclusively. SO, under the 1st Amendment the FEDERAL government cannot make them illegal, however, state level it is up to the inhabitants of that state to decide.
Doesn't the SCOTUS interpret the first amendment to mean both federal and state levels? Many videogame restriction laws got shot down by that. However they also arbitrarily decide that porn has no value and is therefore not speech. I'd say objectivism is clearly devoid of any value but I doubt they'd let me ban Ayn Rand...
Ayn Rand is a bad place to start banning people. Rand likes freedom a lot, so she wouldn't ban you. You should start by banning those who would ban you, it's what Hitler did.
Anyway, SCOTUS interprets many things in many many amazing ways. But, in general, the Bill of Rights does not usually transcend into State Government unless that state's constitution specifically says that. However, most states have the Bill of Rights in their constitution in one way or another. Ex. Amendment 10 of the WA state constitution is gun rights, a.k.a. "Militia"
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: KDR_11k on July 05, 2009, 05:33:29 AM
Also, fun fact: almost-popular fighting game Melty Blood is basically a spinoff of a hentai game
One that may people here probably know because it's called Tsukihime and the corresponding anime was released in the US AFAIK.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 07, 2009, 10:15:15 AM
Here is the problem I see. Should graphic Rape games be allowed? No. In fact Hell No, those games should not exist. But, whenever censorship gets involved people swing too far the other direction. I don't know why it is. Perhaps because they enjoy the power and realize their actions can change the shape of society. Or they are activists which went into the field to change society and are just waiting. Whatever the reason it is occurs and people are forced to fight against it and stand up for some truly horrible things to protect people's rights in other areas.
Unfortunately, it is hard to find a happy medium and you can't just leave it alone because leaving man to be responsible for their actions never works.
In the end, can rape be in games, yes...if done appropriately, just like any material should be in games if done appropriately...should graphic rape games or games glorifying such before be censored? Yes. The ultimate problem becomes who decides what is decent...
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Deguello on July 08, 2009, 07:50:09 PM
Pretty sure that's the exact opposite of what he said in that vid, in which he encourages us to argue a lot and not roll over like babies. Although that vid was a long and insane propaganda-like video, he is right that the freedom of game design is automatically the winning side of the argument vs censored content and the only way to lose that argument in the arena of debate is to be a fuckup. I believe that accepting a ban on a type of game (even an awful one) rather than standing firm on a no-censorship policy would be fucking up -because- things we actually do like would be censored as well. Ergo, Smash_Brother is wrong and I am right.
My point was that these people are believers, like he said. Nothing will change their minds so why bother trying?
But not defending rape games isn't going to swell into the destruction of the entire industry. There's too much power behind it.
Although I agree that this is usually how things like this get started, thinking about it now, I'm not at all worried about it happening. It'd be one thing if it was only Nintendo as a console maker, but Microsoft? This is the behemoth that made an open and shut monopoly suit against them disappear.
When this happened to the comics industry, it was happening to a bunch of guys with little power and nothing in the way of political sway.
But again, MICROSOFT. Does anyone honestly think Microsoft will sit idly by and watch while a bunch of nutcases pass a bill that bans violent games entirely, effectively snuffing out the primary source of their bread and butter?
That bill will never make it through into law. There are far too many wealthy and powerful organizations who benefit from the gaming industry to ever let it happen. The public outcry would have to be so great that it would be damaging the economy before anyone acted on it, and let's be honest, people just don't care that much. From what I've heard, the word "rape" is already the #1 searched word on the internet and I've yet to see people rallying in the streets in protest.
In summary, no, there's no need to defend rape games. The remainder of the industry will be just fine.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Stratos on July 13, 2009, 07:06:59 PM
That's a little disturbing that rape is so heavily searched. And to dig a whole different can of worms, I wonder how many of these people are victims too afraid to speak out.
Needless to say, I'm going to be more stubborn than ever about escorting lady friends to their door or car. Some of us already did it at school because our college is in the worst part of Portland.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: redgiemental on July 18, 2009, 08:51:41 AM
Just to respond to a few people first of all
Smash Brother to be perfectly honest I don't think Microsoft cares very much about the artistic integrity of the medium. If they stand to lose money they'll fight. If a government was playing to ban all sexual acts or suggestion (drugs or any supposedly taboo subject for the sake of argument) in video games and Microsoft didn't think it would have a noticeable effect on their profits I don't think they'd lift a finger to stop the censorship. So I don't think I agree with your view that everything will be alright.
Also Smash Brother have you ever seen A Clockwork Orange? The protagonist rapes a helpless woman in front of her husband (admittedly not a child) near the beginning of the film but by the end you are led to feel some sympathy and warmth for the character. The film was rated X but was allowed to be released unedited.
Spak-Spang why would it matter to you that someone down the street is playing a rapegame in his house, alone not hurting anyone?
KDR is right about internet censorship. Almost all censorship movements over step their original mission statement.
Deguello don't be obtuse there is an obvious inherent need for slander and libel laws as people need a reliable source of news and people should not have their reputation ruined by lies and misconceptions. That has nothing to do with limiting artistic expression. It is a straw man argument at best.
They could distribute it via the internet but not via any other means this is not "free distribution" that is restricted distribution by definition.
I can see Ian's argument about picking your battles but censorship is wrong in all cases. As long as no-one is harmed in the process of making something then there is no rational argument for banning something.
After all if no-one wanted the product no-one would buy it but some people do so they must enjoy it. You should not trample the rights of some to suit the tastes of others.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 18, 2009, 10:56:57 AM
Smash Brother to be perfectly honest I don't think Microsoft cares very much about the artistic integrity of the medium. If they stand to lose money they'll fight.
Then we're in agreement. This discussion is about the banning of rape games snowballing into harming the industry, which I don't think will be allowed to happen.
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Also Smash Brother have you ever seen A Clockwork Orange? The protagonist rapes a helpless woman in front of her husband (admittedly not a child) near the beginning of the film but by the end you are led to feel some sympathy and warmth for the character. The film was rated X but was allowed to be released unedited.
And according to the Rapelay review (the game that started all the controversy), you're led to feel absolutely no sympathy for the "protagonist" whatsoever since he's basically just plain evil.
Again, the banning of rape games isn't going to hurt the industry when there are too many powerful companies who stand to lose from it.
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 21, 2009, 02:00:43 AM
Smash Brother to be perfectly honest I don't think Microsoft cares very much about the artistic integrity of the medium. If they stand to lose money they'll fight.
Then we're in agreement. This discussion is about the banning of rape games snowballing into harming the industry, which I don't think will be allowed to happen.
Quote
Also Smash Brother have you ever seen A Clockwork Orange? The protagonist rapes a helpless woman in front of her husband (admittedly not a child) near the beginning of the film but by the end you are led to feel some sympathy and warmth for the character. The film was rated X but was allowed to be released unedited.
And according to the Rapelay review (the game that started all the controversy), you're led to feel absolutely no sympathy for the "protagonist" whatsoever since he's basically just plain evil.
Again, the banning of rape games isn't going to hurt the industry when there are too many powerful companies who stand to lose from it.
I'm not worried about the industry being hurt. I'm looking out for me! I'm worried that as a result of restrictive blanket rules, the games we actually do play will be worse, or not make it to all the regions that they could. It would be way too easy to create a situation where a game is not ported to another platform or to another region (like Phoenix Wright, Street Fighter IV on PC or whatever, to say nothing of small-time games or companies) because of something stupid like depicting violence against women. It could be happening already! Companies could be baby-ifying their games preemptively and we wouldn't even know about it!
I'm still sore about roadkill being removed from Cruis'n USA
Title: Re: Rape Games and You
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 22, 2009, 02:22:46 PM
Ah, I see where you're coming from on that.
Most gamers would see Chun Li getting the crap beaten out of her as equality while a lot of nutjobs would see it as violence against women.
Honestly, the best thing would be to make zero mention of it, period. If you wrote a letter to your congressman asking him to not ban rape games, that's probably just what he'd set out to do and new legislation regarding violence against women in games would come out all over the place.
