Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Evan_B on June 26, 2015, 12:33:32 AM
Title: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
Post by: Evan_B on June 26, 2015, 12:33:32 AM
Oh, hey. You may remember this topic being about how I hate that Paper Mario has no personality anymore. But now that there's a new game being announced, maybe Intelligent Systems can figure their **** out and make a proper successor to The Thousand Year Door! You can discuss that here, or read up on the original discussion:
With the recent news of Paper Mario being a guest character in the latest AlphaDream title, I'm just about fed up with how Nintendo has been treating this franchise. I guess I'm in the minority of people who think that, when this series actually WAS an RPG, it was superior to the Mario and Luigi series in just about every way. Overworld traversal is easier and not convoluted, the battle mechanics were more streamlined and engaging, and the dialogue was more charming and not deliberately trying to make you laugh. It was just funny.
What's worse, though, is that from what is being featured in Paper Jam and as evidenced by Super Paper Mario and Sticker Star, it's clear Nintendo doesn't know what to do with the character anymore. His gimmick is obviously being made of paper, but each title since The Thousand Year Door has focused less on the simple mechanics of a decent RPG and more on paper shenanigans. While I would say that Sticker Star's aesthetics were by far one of its best qualities, the over-reliance on Stickers was not a good turn for the series. Paper Jam is supposed to incorporate elements "from the Paper Mario series", but let's be honest- Paper Mario never had ridiculous paper mechs and few of his special moves had to do with what was shown off in the demo. Nintendo seems to think that Mario and Luigi makes Paper Mario defunct as an RPG series when a fan of that series couldn't disagree more.
Some might argue- "hey, at least they're still MAKING Paper Mario games." But I think a franchise that has continued iterations that suck or miss the point of the original are still being neglected. Why stop at Paper Mario? I'm sure people have a list of franchises they would like to list grievances about! Sometimes, it's better to just let it all out. I could say a whole bunch of stuff abou Intelligent Systems and AlphaDream, but what are some of your thoughts on franchises?
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: ShyGuy on June 26, 2015, 01:33:17 AM
Never Played the first one. I know, I know
TTYD may be my favorite RPG of all time.
Super Paper Mario was fun, but the new character's appearance seemed uninspired and the ending drug on way to long.
Never played Sticker Star.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Adrock on June 26, 2015, 06:47:38 AM
I loved the first Paper Mario on N64. I scored a non-best seller version of The Thousand Year Door, but I haven't played it yet. I didn't like Sticker Star. I didn't get far enough in Super Paper Mario to have any lasting thoughts on it. I remember there being a ton of dialog in the beginning.
I only completed Superstar Saga. I started Bowser's Inside Story last year. It's hard to compare the two series. If Nintendo ever does make another Paper Mario, I'd rather it be made with HD sprites because I think there's a ton of potential there.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Evan_B on June 26, 2015, 08:38:04 AM
Something I've found is that if you play the second first, you enjoy it more than the original. It maybe goes the opposite way.
I will stand by the things I have said for a longtime about Sticker Star- it is a decent adventure game, where you're solving puzzles and overcoming obstacles with a battle here or there, more like Zelda II in its structure. But it's not an RPG, and Intelligent Systems flat-out stated that in the Iwata Asks for the game. They called it a "Sticker Battle Adventure" which is exactly how I'd put it. In terms of presentation and music, it's worth a (heavily discounted) look, but the battle mechanics are disappointing (though not without depth) and the puzzles are infuriating at times.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: MagicCow64 on June 26, 2015, 10:47:07 AM
Eh, I don't really think there needs to be two distinct Mario RPG series, especially now that the handheld/console distinction is basically gone. Traditional Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi (and Mario RPG for that matter) have very similar fundamental battle gameplay, and a similar approach to solving light puzzles in the overworld using abilities you discover, and similar light/comedic approaches to story. I'd much rather they keep trying different things with Paper Mario (Super was brilliant), given that Alpha Dream looks set to keep pumping out M&L games. And Bowser's Inside Story is the best of the seven Mario RPG games released thus far.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Evan_B on June 26, 2015, 11:43:55 AM
This is the exact mindset I have issue with.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: UncleBob on June 26, 2015, 11:49:06 AM
I really enjoyed Super Paper Mario.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Ian Sane on June 26, 2015, 01:00:10 PM
Paper Mario also seemed like the anti-RPG. I liked the first two games a lot but they weren't scratching my FF/DQ kind of RPG itch. Since Nintendo's N64 propaganda was so anti-RPG, Paper Mario felt almost like Nintendo making an RPG to appeal to the fanboys that had bought into the anti-RPG attitude. I think the anti-RPG element has just escalated so the series has seemingly abandoned the genre altogether.
Though the conspiracy theorist in me is wondering if Super Paper Mario took the series away from the RPG genre because Nintendo felt that the genre isn't accessible and on the Wii Nintendo was all about accessibility.
When Mario & Luigi first came out I thought the routine was going to be that every Mario RPG would be made by a different team and play differently since at that point Paper Mario was still just a one-off game. THAT would have been a cool tradition.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: ThePerm on June 26, 2015, 05:58:44 PM
I kinda don't like RPGs. Paper Mario was great. It was an RPG, but it wasn't a boring ass jrpg with the most annoying grinding/passive lazy gameplay and a stupid story.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Fatty The Hutt on June 26, 2015, 06:56:28 PM
I liked Paper Mario and what little I have played of Super Paper Mario. Never played TTYD. I really enjoyed Sticker Star. The obtuse puzzles never bothered me (I just looked them up, who has time for anything else?) and the sticker mechanic and overall aesthetics of that game are really top notch. I liked Bowser's Inside Story and am about 2/3 of the way through Dream Team. It's good. I have played a little bit of Superstar Saga and am looking forward to more. All the games have their flaws (mostly they get quite repetitive) but they are all good games. I'd like to see a standalone Paper Mario game over another Mario and Luigi game. I just think they're better. But it looks like we are getting a Mario and Luigi game with "special guest star" Paper Mario. Oh well. I'll buy it and I'm sure it will be fine, probably quite good.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Evan_B on June 26, 2015, 09:58:43 PM
I guess my club still has only one member.
Speaking of under-appreciated franchises, how about Chibi Robo? F-Zero? Custom Robo?
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Khushrenada on June 27, 2015, 02:41:18 AM
I'm with you on preferring Paper Mario over Mario & Luigi. So far I've played Paper Mario 64 and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door and Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga and Mario and Luigi: Partners in Time.
I really should play Super Paper Mario and have wanted to play it a few times but put it off. Then when I gifted my Wii to my brother, he asked for that as one of the games to play so I let him borrow it last year and he still hasn't gotten around to playing it either. It was a GameCube game originially too and I love the Cube so I have high hopes for it. I think I should take it back from him.
Sticker Star I've owned for a couple years and want to play it despite the criticisms of it but New Leaf sucked up a lot of my gaming time so I kept sticking with shorter games I could play in between sessions of that or as a break like Pushmo or Crashmo. I didn't want to get into a longer game. Sticker Star was one of the things that motivated me to buy a 3DS early on and even with the mediocre reception, I still have a strong desire to play it and have twice told myself I'm going to start playing it and then put it off.
On the other hand, the Mario and Luigi have been competent but they don't compel me like Paper Mario. I was meh on Fawful in Superstar Saga. It seemed to hew a bit closer to the SNES Mario RPG game in some aspects yet I found it a slog at times and especially at the end when having to go through Bowser's Castle and all the Koopalings. I think I also miss the ability to have other people join your party. In M&L, you only have the Bros. as your party with them just learning new abilities along the way. Ultimately, it just makes battles a bit more static unlike Paper Mario when you may be switching through party members.
Partners in Time was an interesting experience. I think it was rushed at the time if I recall correctly. After awhile, the game follows a set pattern of 3 landscapes and a boss so you can predict a bit of when you need to be ready. As well, it has a lot of forward momentum and there is very little reason to go back to any world or level after beating. Yet, as long as you beat all the enemies you encounter on a map before moving to the next, you'll keep getting enough experience points to level up to where you need to be as you encounter tougher enemies and bosses. Only Peach's castle requires the most backtracking. The Shroobs were an interesting enemy and I think more could have been done with them and they might be worth revisiting. Same with the whole time travel aspect. I disliked Stuffwell and his "humorous" speak or his "Back to Adventure!" rally cry. He was probably meant to replace the Fawful dialogue a bit for this game but it didn't work. Also, E. Gadd really is one of the worst characters in the Mario universe. There's a reason people go crazy for someone like Waluigi but no one seems to care a lick about E. Gadd even though he's more original. He's just boring and sucks.
Even though TTYD may have followed a lot of the same conventions and material as the original Paper Mario, it was presented so well and with a few tweaks on the original source material that it still came off as a more polished and almost superior follow-up. Partners in Time likewise has a lot of the same conventions as Superstar Saga yet it feels lacking in depth and content. The lack of backtracking though was rather enjoyable.
I hear Bowser's Inside Story is supposed to be really good and maybe I'll get around to it in a year or two. Likewise, I actually like the look and graphics of Dream Team and am curious to play it as it seems it may do some new things by means of the dream world and multiple Luigi's. Yet I'd rather play the Paper Mario offerings before these as even though they may not be as close to an RPG as the first two games, they do look to offer some new experiences whereas I feel I know what I'm getting at this point with Mario and Luigi and don't see a lot of growth there.
I posted in a Talkback thread before E3 that I was hoping there would be a Wii U Paper Mario RPG as a surprise reveal. If that happened, it would instantly be my number one most wanted Wii U game. When I first saw the Paper Jam footage, my brain was processing the reveal like: Gasp! Paper Mario! I can't believe it! Aw, it's on the 3DS. But that's ok! People didn't like Sticker Star so a chance for redemption. Plus, they probably had a lot of the models and graphics ready from Sticker Star that they could copy over. Makes sense. But what's with Mario and Luigi? Huh. A crossover?! Ok. That's different. I wonder how this will work... And by the end, I realized this is going to be mainly a Mario and Luigi game with Paper Mario as a special mechanic for the game. Nuts. I thought it was a new Paper Mario. Sigh.
As for the other series, I hope F-Zero returns someday but I don't want it to change too much from the template F-Zero GX laid out. These days Mario Kart is pretty static in its formula so why can't F-Zero be as well? If a new release comes out that plays weird or offers less content, then I'm not sure how excited I'd be for it. Chibi-Robo GameCube has sold me on this franchise for life. I still keep hoping that with the virtual console, a release of Chibi-Robo 3 DS may finally be made available to North America. (Same with Ace Attorney Investigations 2.) I even got Chibi-Robo Photo Finder for my 3DS. At least the latest Chibi-Robo game is getting released here. Not sure how the change to a side-scroller will turn out (and cue the Ian Sane protest of there being too many side-scrollers from Nintendo) as the Chibi-Robo formula has been quite different up to this point but it is still my most anticipated 3DS game of all upcoming 3DS game releases and I'm glad this character hasn't been given up on yet. As for Custom Robo, never played any of the games. Can not comment on it.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Khushrenada on June 27, 2015, 02:42:25 AM
Hooray! Another Khushrenada Wall of Text post! Just what this forum needs to get things jump started in user activity again.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: UncleBob on June 27, 2015, 08:32:46 AM
As for F-Zero, It'd be sweet if Nintendo took my direction on making every single Nintendo title ever available as a Virtual Console/eShop download for Wii U. Could you imagine if you could download F-Zero GX, AX and the F-Zero X Expansion? Considering two of those are stuff most folks haven't played, it would totally scratch that F-Zero itch.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 27, 2015, 03:24:10 PM
People have already forgotten that Sticker Star was originally going to be a traditional Paper Mario RPG until Miyamoto decided to **** everything up.
Iwata: In some ways, I think that meant a return to Paper Mario's origins, but was there a reason for that renewal?
Tanabe: The biggest reason was that Miyamoto-san said he wanted us to make a big change in the atmosphere for Paper Mario this time. I heard that Miyamoto-san was really thinking for a while about how to handle the Super Mario series and pondered over a number of things.
Iwata: We imagined rather early on that Paper Mario would be a good match for the Nintendo 3DS, and the papercraft atmosphere of the actual prototype was good.
Tanabe: That was about three years ago, at the end of 2009.
Aoyama: At the beginning of development, we were simply incorporating an idea making use of the stereoscopic display function. Then at the 2010 E321, before release of the Nintendo 3DS, we revealed several images.
Iwata: So why did it drag on until now?
Aoyama: After E3, Miyamoto-san played the prototype and said it was just a port of the GC version.
Tanabe: I had heard that at first Miyamoto-san said that something like an RPG would be fine, so for a while I thought that something like the previous one would be fine.
Iwata: That must have meant that you hadn't done much that was new.
Tanabe Right. So we wondered what to do. Then the idea of using stickers came up. Originally, the plan was to use stickers here and there for solving puzzles on the overall map and so forth, but then we thought, "If we're gonna do that, then we might as well use stickers for the whole thing, including battles," and we decided to begin rethinking the game mechanics.
Iwata: That's when the policy of going all out with stickers came to the forefront.
Tanabe: Yeah. But at first I couldn't really dig into development and couldn't easily resolve that.
Tanabe: It was somewhat fateful. About the beginning of February, Kudo-san came to Kyoto to discuss a different project and said in front of me during a casual conversation about how he was so busy being a president that he never got to get involved with development.
Iwata: Oh, same here! (laughs) Everyone (laughs)
Tanabe: Just about that time, I wanted someone who could write good text, and I couldn't always be on site, so I was looking for someone who could be present to make calls on detailed matters. Kudo-san was perfect for that, and we had a past connection through IS, so I asked him if he could take a spot in development. I thought it was going too far to ask another company's president to come in as a staff member on a project I was in charge of, but Kudo-san consented. Then about spring of 2011, we had Miyamoto-san look at a prototype.
Iwata: Uh-huh. How was it?
Tanabe: Personally, I thought it was better than before, but it turned out to be no good.
Aoyama: He said it was boring. I remember that clearly.
Iwata: Listening to you talk, it sounds like Miyamoto-san was a scary presence for the team.
Aoyama Yeah, he was! (laughs)
So instead of giving the fans the traditional Paper Mario game they wanted, we got Sticker Star because the dev team had no balls to stand up to Miyamoto who's shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near this game. Seriously, Miyamoto doesn't know **** about stories and RPG, and they actually took his criticism seriously?
See this is the kind of stuff Miyamoto really deserves to be called out on. It's one thing for him to be involved with Mario Platformers, Zelda and Star Fox since he actually was involved in development of these games in his career, but the man never once worked on an actual RPG. It's complete bullshit that he was allowed to have anything to do with the development of Sticker Star. That would be like a football team making calls based on Michael Jordan's advice.
So hopefully the next time Intelligent Systems works on a Paper Mario, the criticism Sticker Star received makes the team realize not to listen to someone like Miyamoto who has no idea what he's talking about with something that's suppose to be a fucking RPG and finally make a real RPG this time.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Stratos on June 27, 2015, 04:20:05 PM
It may be "old fashioned", but I would still like to see a true sequel to the original Mario RPG.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 27, 2015, 04:40:42 PM
I don't see why Miyamoto shouldn't be allowed to have input on a game just because he hasn't made it before. He's shown over his career that he has great range and a knack for finding what's fun. It may not have worked out in that specific instance, but I think it's crazy discount his abilities at game design.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 27, 2015, 06:59:29 PM
It's one thing for Miyamoto to give his opinion but it's another when they based the entire game around it when RPG's are the entire opposite of what Miyamoto spent his entire career making. Miyamoto might be a legendary designer, but RPG's and story driven games were never part of that resume. Plus this isn't the 90's, Miyamoto has shown for the last decade his decision making skills aren't flawless anymore.
The Paper Mario team should have grown a spine and fought for what they wanted to make, instead of folding like paper to a man who's opinion on this type of game especially these days should not have this much weight.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 27, 2015, 07:09:15 PM
His skills were never flawless, they're just a lot more out in the open than they were back then. And this is an internal Nintendo game; it doesn't matter how much of a spine those guys had, if Miyamoto wanted it changed, it was going to change.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Evan_B on June 28, 2015, 08:29:10 AM
I just wanted to say I enjoyed Khush's post and I agree, a Paper Mario game on Wii U would be my most highly desired title on the system.
While I think it's unfortunate that Miyamoto has that much sway over Intelligent Systems and the direction of the Paper Mario series, I think they could have improved on the mechanics of the RPG without altering the format completely. I also think that Miyamoto does not always know what is good for every type of franchise.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: MagicCow64 on June 28, 2015, 11:15:32 AM
"After E3, Miyamoto-san played the prototype and said it was just a port of the GC version."
I am more and more sympathetic to this sort of critique. Based on that interview, it sounds like Miyamoto didn't see the point in producing another Paper Mario game with nearly the same mechanics. And you know what? Good! The Mario and Luigi series has very similar gameplay. Keep trying different stuff with Paper Mario. If you're dying for a story, books are really the best place to go for that.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Evan_B on June 28, 2015, 12:05:18 PM
The problem with that thought process is that Paper Mario games have better gameplay than Mario and Luigi.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Khushrenada on June 28, 2015, 12:13:50 PM
"After E3, Miyamoto-san played the prototype and said it was just a port of the GC version."
I am more and more sympathetic to this sort of critique. Based on that interview, it sounds like Miyamoto didn't see the point in producing another Paper Mario game with nearly the same mechanics. And you know what? Good! The Mario and Luigi series has very similar gameplay. Keep trying different stuff with Paper Mario. If you're dying for a story, books are really the best place to go for that.
And does Miyamoto review/critique/check up on the Mario & Luigi series? If so, what does he think those games are doing so differently each time compared to Paper Mario? Why can that series have less change but Paper Mario needs to be so different each time now?
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Evan_B on June 28, 2015, 12:16:48 PM
Because paper is neat and Mario and Luigi are not.
It does sound pretty hypocritical.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: MagicCow64 on June 28, 2015, 06:04:03 PM
"After E3, Miyamoto-san played the prototype and said it was just a port of the GC version."
I am more and more sympathetic to this sort of critique. Based on that interview, it sounds like Miyamoto didn't see the point in producing another Paper Mario game with nearly the same mechanics. And you know what? Good! The Mario and Luigi series has very similar gameplay. Keep trying different stuff with Paper Mario. If you're dying for a story, books are really the best place to go for that.
And does Miyamoto review/critique/check up on the Mario & Luigi series? If so, what does he think those games are doing so differently each time compared to Paper Mario? Why can that series have less change but Paper Mario needs to be so different each time now?
Man can't be everywhere at once. More seriously, it's not a contradiction, it would be kinda silly to have more games based on the Mario RPG formula after four similar M&L games and another in the queue. And I will insist one more time that Bowser's Inside Story is better than the traditional Paper Mario games, as is Super Paper Mario. People sure seem to hate Sticker Star (I haven't played it but I don't doubt it's bad), but that's one data point.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 28, 2015, 08:01:52 PM
I think he pushes for it more with Paper Mario because it has more potential from a conceptual standpoint to be its own unique thing. Sticker Star and especially Super Paper Mario were both really interesting, original ideas, regardless of how well executed they ended up being.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Evan_B on June 29, 2015, 12:58:02 AM
Super Paper Mario is essentially an action RPG where the characters have set damage output but increasing health.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 29, 2015, 01:34:03 AM
I was referring to the 2D-3D switching mechanic, which was a really, really cool idea that they really should have gotten more out of.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Evan_B on June 29, 2015, 01:16:15 PM
I agree. Instead, it was half-baked idea that amounted to "dodge big stuff or go around tall stuff"
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Ian Sane on June 29, 2015, 01:19:29 PM
How many of you feel comfortable with standing up to your boss? Miyamoto is their boss. He says "make it like this" and they do it because they want to keep their job and stuff. Be mad at Miyamoto for not understanding how RPGs work but I don't expect IS to put their foot down to a superior's request.
I realize that in the present day if there is an announcement about a new Miyamoto game I'm not excited. These days it's usually some quirky tech demo with a control gimmick. I feel the guy peaked during the N64 years. He made Ocarina of Time and it was like the most ambitious game ever at the time and that was his peak. I wonder if that's the game he really envisioned when he thought of the Zelda concept and once he achieved it he wasn't hungry anymore. Frankly I think Nintendo peaked around the same time. They've been very conservative in their game design since. I don't see any enthusiasm from then in regards to pushing the envelope. They're content with just trying some nifty novelties. They really don't seem to give the slightest **** about what new technology can offer unless it relates to controllers. I think Miyamoto's prominent role is a big reason for that. The guy that moved them forward in the 80's and 90's now holds them back.
Of course it could just be that he's old or things have really changed now that he's an executive more than a game designer. Who upended the tea tables when he was making Mario and Zelda? I don't think there was anyone. I believe he got a lot of freedom to do his own thing and it paid off in spades. Now he's the meddling exec poking his finger in every project.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 29, 2015, 03:21:06 PM
Frankly I think Nintendo peaked around the same time. They've been very conservative in their game design since. I don't see any enthusiasm from then in regards to pushing the envelope. They're content with just trying some nifty novelties. They really don't seem to give the slightest **** about what new technology can offer unless it relates to controllers. I think Miyamoto's prominent role is a big reason for that. The guy that moved them forward in the 80's and 90's now holds them back.
Did you even read what we're debating or just love to give your rehashed "Post N64 Nintendo doesn't make anything new" post in every topic? The number one complaint about Sticker Star is Miyamoto made IS make something more ambitious then it needed to be. The fans just want another Paper Mario RPG, while Miyamoto had IS make something that was completely different.
Seriously, how is the Paper Mario series an example of being conservative. Hell the most popular game in the franchise is TTYD and that's the one that did the least to change from it's predecessor. If anything, the fans wish Nintendo would be conservative with this series since another RPG like 64 and TTYD is exactly what they really want.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: Evan_B on June 29, 2015, 11:04:09 PM
I would say that Sticker Star was different, but not necessarily better. Ambitious isn't the right word for it.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 30, 2015, 08:18:30 AM
It was trying to be more than just another Mario RPG. I'd say ambitious fits.
Title: Re: The Jaded Paper Mario Club- all franchises welcome!
Post by: pokepal148 on June 30, 2015, 01:02:20 PM
I really don't like the battle system in Mario and Luigi so Paper Mario is the series I prefer.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: Evan_B on January 24, 2016, 08:58:33 PM
Oh, hey. You may remember this topic being about how I hate that Paper Mario has no personality anymore. But now that there's a new game being announced, maybe Intelligent Systems can figure their **** out and make a proper successor to The Thousand Year Door! You can discuss that here, or read up on the original discussion.
What do you want to see from a new Paper Mario game? I'd like them to take what was great about the first two games and make it better. I'd also like subtle paper references, like enhanced textures and silly transformations like TTYD had. I don't need constant reminders that Mario is made of paper, that wasn't what made the first two games good.
The status effects from Sticker Star (soggy, burned, crumpled, and pinned) could made a return, though.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: Adrock on January 24, 2016, 09:10:12 PM
What do you want to see from a new Paper Mario game?
Sticker Star flat-out fucking sucked. I wish it was a person so I could punch it right in the face. I hate that game. I hate that it masquerades as a Paper Mario game. What do I want? An actual RPG like the good lord intended. I just took The Thousand Year Door out of storage. I'm going to start it soon. I really liked the original on N64, and I heard the sequel was even better. More of that. Please. All I want from a Paper Mario game is for it to play like the game that made me a fan of the series to begin with. This is not difficult.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on January 24, 2016, 09:59:46 PM
I'd love a true successor to Thousand Year Door, but I'd also take a follow-up to Super Paper Mario that isn't four times as long as its content justifies like the first one was.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: Luigi Dude on January 24, 2016, 11:41:55 PM
Just make it an RPG again and keep Miyamoto as far from development as possible. Hell maybe that's why we haven't heard about the game even though it's been in development for a few year. IS wasn't being quite to surprise the fans, they were being quite so Miyamoto wouldn't know about it.
Oh ****, now because the news is leaked Miyamoto is probably going to be waiting at IS studio on Monday morning angry as **** and ready to flip some tables. The game will now delayed until 2017 to transform it from Thousand Year 64 Doors 2 to Super Sticker Star Amiibo Festival. :'(
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: Evan_B on January 25, 2016, 12:53:28 AM
I would give Nintendo a large sum of money for an Amiibo Paper Mario, but I really don't want that gimmick shoehorned into the next game.
I would think they have heard the backlash against Sticker Star (although the presentation and actual environment design were really good), and since the Wii U has a crippling lack of RPGs, this might be the chance to take all the ideas from when Paper Mario for 3DS was still an RPG and fully realize them. I also think on a console like Wii U there's great potential for visuals, especially after seeing gorgeous games like Wooly World and Kirby and the Rainbow Curse.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: Ian Sane on January 25, 2016, 02:29:59 PM
Much of what made the original Paper Mario stand out was that it was effectively a replacement for Super Mario RPG. Once Mario & Luigi became a series and we now had two Mario RPG series I can see why IS would want to try something different with Super Paper Mario to differentiate it somehow. TTYD is a great and all but it's really just a refinement of the original game's gameplay. After that, where do you go? I find when Nintendo starts running off the rails with a series it's usually after a "perfect" entry. They introduced the concept in the first game, perfected it in the second, so now what? When Nintendo hits that "now what?" point you start seeing games revolving around a singular gameplay feature or a major shift in the gameplay. Uh, let's try making it a platformer! Uh, let's try something with stickers! It's a good thing that they feel that each game needs to stand out in a unique way but sometimes it results in a series losing the plot.
But Paper Mario with Stickers is not a terrible approach if they still make it an RPG. "What if Miyamoto didn't **** the game up?" is a unintentionally hilarious design plan. But how could they do that? Surely Miyamoto would find out and I wonder if anyone at Nintendo has pointed out to him that his meddling ruined the game or that he admits it himself. Odds are they would present their sticker idea and he would say "we already did that" and that would be the end of it.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: Luigi Dude on January 25, 2016, 03:35:19 PM
I would think they have heard the backlash against Sticker Star (although the presentation and actual environment design were really good), and since the Wii U has a crippling lack of RPGs, this might be the chance to take all the ideas from when Paper Mario for 3DS was still an RPG and fully realize them. I also think on a console like Wii U there's great potential for visuals, especially after seeing gorgeous games like Wooly World and Kirby and the Rainbow Curse.
Yeah that's why I'm feeling pretty good this game will end up being a traditional Paper Mario again. People give Nintendo crap for not doing what the fans want but generally they do address the biggest complaint people had with one game in their sequels. The biggest complaint about Super Paper Mario was the insane amount of text and story the game would dump every 5-second, followed by the ridicules backtracking and tedious activates you had to do. Sticker Star to it's credit did address those issues, of course it went too far since it nearly eliminated the story all together.
Still not a lot of people complained about Super not being an RPG since it was assumed to be a one time spinoff and the next game would be a return to form like it almost was. So yeah I'd imagine Nintendo got the message this time since the biggest complaint about Sticker Star was by far the lack of being an actual Paper Mario RPG which is the number one things the fans are united about wanting.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on January 26, 2016, 11:48:54 AM
I don't think Miyomoto cares about what franchise Mario is in, he created Mario so I think he probably feels like he should have some creative say in any game that features his baby. I know I would push for that if I were him. It's the whole George Lucas vs. the people all over again, what right does the creator have verses the audience who receives his work.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: Evan_B on January 26, 2016, 03:04:01 PM
The fact that Mario has been inserted into an RPG format invalidates Miyamoto's input- he has no idea what is good for that specific genre and he has proven that with Sticker Star.
Role playing games strive on diversity, which is why TTYD is one of my favorite titles. It features classic Mario enemies and allies in a "forgotten corner" of the mushroom kingdom, one that is more vivid and interesting than the entirety of the same generic bullshit we have dealt with from the Mario franchise over the past ten years. That game also had the balls to introduce new races and villains to the fray which is what I hope they will go for with the next installment.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: Ian Sane on January 26, 2016, 07:50:39 PM
Role playing games strive on diversity, which is why TTYD is one of my favorite titles. It features classic Mario enemies and allies in a "forgotten corner" of the mushroom kingdom, one that is more vivid and interesting than the entirety of the same generic bullshit we have dealt with from the Mario franchise over the past ten years. That game also had the balls to introduce new races and villains to the fray which is what I hope they will go for with the next installment.
This is a big reason why I loved Super Mario RPG so much. At that point the Mario universe had never been expanded beyond the basic platformers. Sidescrolling platformers at the time normally were short on story and characters so the Mario games didn't seem any weaker at this than other games. There were Mario comics and the cartoon show but they didn't feel authentic like how story in a game will. So to me Mario RPG's Mushroom Kingdom and surrounding world is the "real" one because it's the first one I was introduced to.
In the generations to follow the expectations of storytelling in videogames rose but as the proper Mario games introduced more story elements they revealed really generic and boring plots and characters. In the NES and SNES days much of the details of the Mario world were left to imagination. Then when they were first properly plotted out in a Mario RPG the results were much more interesting than what the main Mario series would later offer. Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi feel like a much more "legitimate" Mario world than the proper Mario games because they seem to actually have some effort invested in making them interesting. "Real" Mario games pretty much just have obstacle courses.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: Evan_B on January 26, 2016, 11:15:19 PM
I just want decent action commands back. And stylish moves. Oh god, I miss them so much. I mean, the animations in Sticker Star were stylish enough (the normal jump combo was quite satisfying), but discovering those extra stylish inputs and recharging your special moves was so much more of a reward.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: MagicCow64 on January 27, 2016, 12:24:04 AM
Sorry, wrong thread!
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: Evan_B on February 04, 2016, 01:13:24 PM
Judging by the cryptic words of the NWR Cat Rumor Mill, Intelligent Systems has managed to, once again, ruin Paper Mario.
I am so livid right now I don't even know what to say.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: Ian Sane on February 04, 2016, 03:11:04 PM
Since Paper Mario started as an RPG one would assume that the fanbase likes it as such. If you're making a major change to the series that betrays the very elements that defined it in the first place then you're probably trying for another audience.
So I'm curious as to what Super Paper Mario's sales were like compared to the first two Paper Marios. Paper Mario came out at the end of the N64's life so it probably didn't sell that great and TTYD was on the Gamecube. Just by being on the Wii Super Paper Mario probably smoked both in sales. Nintendo probably observed that and came to the conclusion that there is a larger audience for Paper Mario not being an RPG.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to freak out!
Post by: Evan_B on February 04, 2016, 03:34:14 PM
If you're judging the sales of a mediocre game on an extremely wide-selling system as the direction in which you should take the franchise, you're a moron.
But hey, this IS Nintendo, am I right?
What I don't understand is, how do you look at a game library full of 2D platformers and Party Games, with next to no RPGs, and say, "you know what? We want to satisfy the people who bought this system. Let's make something completely different!"
I get that most Wii U owners are probably 3DS owners, but what the hell, man? Are they really THIS out-of-touch with their fanbase? I mean, games like Smash Bros., or even SMTxFE have me thinking otherwise, but this ruination of my favorite franchise... it's just obscene, at this point.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on February 04, 2016, 04:10:09 PM
I didn't like Thousand Year door, the first was playable but not memorable. I loved Super Paper Mario but felt it needed less talking and more platforming. I think that RPG's have been largely absent as a main console genre from Nintendo consoles for so long maybe they, Nintendo, just don't think they should waste time catering to an audience that has left them for Sony.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
Post by: Evan_B on February 04, 2016, 04:26:51 PM
I didn't like Thousand Year door, the first was playable but not memorable. I loved Super Paper Mario but felt it needed less talking and more platforming.
Hm. We should probably never delve deeper into this subject.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on February 04, 2016, 11:04:30 PM
At the time it had been over a decade since a proper 2D Mario game had been released for the home console, so when Super Paper Mario was announced, to me at least, it felt closer to a true Mario game than Sunshine, or Galaxies did so I enjoyed it as a close enough. Then New Super Mario Bros. took off and I liked it very much.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
Post by: Evan_B on February 04, 2016, 11:38:08 PM
I seem to be in the minority that thinks the original New Super Mario Bros. was a great game.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 04, 2016, 11:46:08 PM
I seem to be in the minority that thinks the original New Super Mario Bros. was a great game.
It's just so damn bland. I get not wanting to go too nuts after not having anything like it for so long, but they played it way too safe. It's not bad, it's just completely forgettable (except the multiplayer, which was amazing and needs to come back in some form).
As for Super Paper Mario, I've said before it's a great idea that wasn't executed as well as it should have been. I'd love them to go back to that formula and tweak it to be leaner and tighter. As good as the dialogue in those games are, the first one had way too much of it, and if they could cut that down and get rid of the endless fetch quests it could be amazing.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on February 04, 2016, 11:55:21 PM
I seem to be in the minority that thinks the original New Super Mario Bros. was a great game.
Don't mistake what I said as it not being a great game I LOVED IT, but I said console, CONSOLE is not the same as handheld to me. I get how some people confuse the two but having a game on the portable does not replace not having a proper console version to me. And it was odd that New Super Mario Bros. was a hand held game to begin with when it played so much like a console Mario game and little like past handheld Mario games anyways. The first New Super Mario Bros. is one of my all time favorite games, and my number 3 favorite Mario game, but it is not a console game.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
Post by: Ian Sane on February 05, 2016, 02:00:12 PM
The whole hook of NSMB was that it was a new 2D Mario game and we hadn't seen one of those in a while. Now that they routinely release 2D Marios the novelty of returning to the gameplay style is gone so the game just comes across as very bland and generic. I frankly found it boring even when it was current. NSMB Wii was much more up my alley.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
Post by: Mop it up on February 05, 2016, 02:25:18 PM
Yeah, looking at sales, I can't find a figure for the N64 Paper Mario which probably means it sold less than a million. Paper Mario GCN is 2.24 million and Super Paper Mario is 4.23 million. Sales could be a reason why they started experimenting with the series, however the GCN Paper Mario sold better than the N64 game, on a system with a lower userbase no less, and that 2.24 figure means it has about a 10% attach rate. Probably better stats to consider than just the numbers, but I'm not so sure they did.
I am so livid right now I don't even know what to say.
Well, the topic title did once say you were going to freak out, but it didn't say if it would be a good or bad freak out. So, say whatever you wanna say!
I am so livid right now I don't even know what to say.
Well, the topic title did once say you were going to freak out, but it didn't say if it would be a good or bad freak out. So, say whatever you wanna say!
I think I've made myself pretty clear on the subject, but once more, with feeling:
The Paper Mario franchise, to me, was once a worthy successor to the ideas that Super Mario RPG presented with arguably more novel gameplay, aesthetic charm, and complexity layered underneath an easily-approachable exterior. With the advent of Mario and Luigi, Nintendo doesn't seem to think both franchises can coexist as RPGs (which is silly, as they both did different things that made them unique and novel, though IN MY OPINION Mario and Luigi has never been as good a franchise) and has decided to make Paper Mario... well, not an RPG. Whether it's some weird action-platformer like Super Paper Mario or an aesthetically gorgeous but creatively bankrupt and mechanically broken affair like Sticker Star, they can't seem to figure out an angle for the character outside of "he's made of paper".
With a Wii U title, they had the opportunity to return to the series' roots with gorgeous HD textures that would have struck a balance between "he's made of paper" and what FANS of the series have wanted ever since it went sort-of-then-totally-then-spun-off-out-of-whack. But, if our rumor cats are to be trusted, Nintendo doesn't think the Wii U needs RPGs (because goodness knows 2D Platformers are the only thing that can be on Wii U) and they don't think people want Paper Mario to be good again. Or maybe it's Intelligent Systems that thinks that. Probably them, since they haven't had a good idea outside of Code Name S.T.E.A.M. for a long damn time.
So **** you, Nintendo.
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on February 10, 2016, 03:52:56 PM
I am so livid right now I don't even know what to say.
Well, the topic title did once say you were going to freak out, but it didn't say if it would be a good or bad freak out. So, say whatever you wanna say!
I think I've made myself pretty clear on the subject, but once more, with feeling:
The Paper Mario franchise, to me, was once a worthy successor to the ideas that Super Mario RPG presented with arguably more novel gameplay, aesthetic charm, and complexity layered underneath an easily-approachable exterior. With the advent of Mario and Luigi, Nintendo doesn't seem to think both franchises can coexist as RPGs (which is silly, as they both did different things that made them unique and novel, though IN MY OPINION Mario and Luigi has never been as good a franchise) and has decided to make Paper Mario... well, not an RPG. Whether it's some weird action-platformer like Super Paper Mario or an aesthetically gorgeous but creatively bankrupt and mechanically broken affair like Sticker Star, they can't seem to figure out an angle for the character outside of "he's made of paper".
With a Wii U title, they had the opportunity to return to the series' roots with gorgeous HD textures that would have struck a balance between "he's made of paper" and what FANS of the series have wanted ever since it went sort-of-then-totally-then-spun-off-out-of-whack. But, if our rumor cats are to be trusted, Nintendo doesn't think the Wii U needs RPGs (because goodness knows 2D Platformers are the only thing that can be on Wii U) and they don't think people want Paper Mario to be good again. Or maybe it's Intelligent Systems that thinks that. Probably them, since they haven't had a good idea outside of Code Name S.T.E.A.M. for a long damn time.
So **** you, Nintendo.
Doesn't it feel good to get that out of your system. I been saying that ever since they turned Mario into a PSA for cleaning your room and Zelda into a PBS animated special. Then to really piss everyone off they name their follow up to the amazing Game Cube the fucking Nintendo Piss. GRRR!!!!
Title: Re: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
Post by: Evan_B on February 10, 2016, 05:34:27 PM
I mean, this is also the company that gave me Xenoblade Chronicles X and Pikmin 3, so... sadly, it kinda all evens out.
