Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Adrock on December 07, 2013, 03:29:08 PM
Title: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 07, 2013, 03:29:08 PM
There's been a lot of talk lately about what Nintendo has done wrong so I've been thinking lately of how to improve things for Nintendo's next home console.
I'm hoping this can start a nice discussion. A few things before we get started:
1. Please keep negativity to a minimum. If you hated motion controls, we've probably all heard it before. This is not the thread for that. Just accept that every future hardware from Nintendo is going to have it for legacy support.
2. Explain why you think something should be and why you think it would work.
3. Don't be a dick.
There will be a lot of blocks of text so I separated them into sections and put the main idea in bold.
Pick A Boring Name Ideally, Nintendo would be wise to pick a name that doesn't start a discussion. It doesn't need a convoluted philosophy behind it. And don't confuse people. The name should exist just so people have something to call it. Honestly, I would just call it "Nintendo." If it really needs an identifier, put a 7 at the end of it. Nintendo 7. Or M for Machine. Nintendo M. Something simple.
The Operating System Shouldn't Be Slow Ever Especially on day one.
Deep And Immediate Integration With 3DS' Successor This should be done day one. We're already kind of seeing this with Nintendo combining their console and handheld teams and Miiverse being brought over to 3DS. They need to "talk" to each other. I would even go as far as having "4DS" function as a controller. That means it requires near parity with the new console's controller. Also, it means Nintendo must...
Unify The Virtual Console Between Handheld And Console This is on everyone's wish list and it never should have been a issue to begin with. Since it is, here's how I propose handling it:
1. All Virtual Console games are tied to your Nintendo Network ID which are then transferable from Wii U and 3DS to their successors and their successors' successors. For free. And forever. 2. If a customer bought multiple versions of the game, they get 1/2 credit returned to their Nintendo Network eshop account on what they paid for the lowest priced version. For example, say someone bought Super Mario Bros. for $5 on Wii U and $3 on sale on 3DS. They would get $1.50 in credit.
I know some people will say that full credit for each additional version should be given, but I counter that with the fact that no one forced them to purchase more than one copy so getting something back is pretty fair.
Transition To x86-64 Nintendo is currently the only console maker that isn't on this instruction set. That is pretty much the best reason to drop PowerPC. Also, it means Nintendo can use off-the-shelf parts though I could see Nintendo having Intel or AMD customize the CPU for their purposes. There are many implications of this transition. For example...
Drop Hardware Backwards Compatibility This means no previous discs or peripherals (namely the GamePad and Wii Remotes) will work on the new console at all. Put down the torches and pitchforks. It's for the greater good. Nintendo would need to include the Wii U chipset in the new console which ultimately would drive up the price. Nintendo will want to keep costs low for everything that's not directly affecting new software. I'm getting to that. Software emulation is key.
Start Writing Emulation Software Today There should be full support on day one for every single legacy Nintendo platform. No exceptions. The emulation software should be universal instead of per game. Honestly, it would be ideal for Nintendo to have universal emulation software for other platforms ready as well, but Nintendo definitely needs to get their **** together on their own legacy platforms.
Digital Downloads Of Wii U Games Can Be Downloaded On The New Console For Free It's only fair.
People Who Bought A Physical Copy Of A Wii U Game And Registered The Game On Club Nintendo Get A Discount On The Digital Version Why only a discount? Because they can resell the physical copy and no one is forcing them to sell their Wii U. I feel like this would be a nice gesture. It's a privilege, not a right. Sony and Microsoft didn't and couldn't do this. And if they bought the discounted digital download, it would be tied to their Nintendo Network ID forever.
Of course, this would lock out most third party games, but you know, what third party games? There would be a silver lining I'll get to later.
Drop Discs Entirely, Use Cards Instead This way no one is trying to ram a Wii U disc into the console since it won't have a disc drive. If Nintendo isn't ever going to support Blu Ray/DVD playback, they aren't taking advantage of the main benefit of a disc based system. Discs are cheaper, but we are moving into a digital future whether or not people, such as myself who prefer having physical copies, want this to happen so physical media is, unfortunately, becoming less important. Moving forward, I think cards are a better choice and prices for higher capacities are dropping even if they'll never match discs. There are additional benefits to adopting cards: faster loading, no moving parts (the fan notwithstanding), and studier media (plus whatever else I'm forgetting). If people want a physical copy, it's available, but the digital version should always be available the same day as well.
My understanding (and I admit, I could be wrong) is that PS4 requires users to install the entire game onto the hard drive which makes the game faster than reading it off the disc, but you still need the disc even though it's running off the hard drive. It's more like a digital download that allows easy lending which I guess is nice (even though they also need to install). It just seems like the Blu Ray Drive is mainly there for movies. I think it would be better for Nintendo to nix it.
Include A User Replaceable 4TB Hard Drive Overkill? Maybe. We're entering a digital future. The price of such a hard drive should not be that expensive by the time a successor launches. Don't leave this up to consumers.
GamePad Pro The new console needs to be able to support four of these simultaneously and at 60 frames per second. That means it's essentially functioning as splitscreen multiplayer in our hands. The console also needs to be able to run video streaming software like Netflix and any game simultaneously which shouldn't be a problem because Netflix isn't that taxing.
Naturally, improving battery life and shaving off as much weight as possible are givens.
And it should work as a universal remote. That's for you, BlackNMild.
Make All Controllers And Peripherals As Cheap As Possible This is especially integral if no Wii or Wii U peripherals are compatible. This also means there would be no issue with consumer confusion. People would know what to buy and no one would ever think the new peripherals were for Wii U.
More importantly, Sony (and Microsoft) gained market share from Nintendo by changing the rules. Nintendo should consider doing the same. It's tempting to turn a major profit on controllers because people need those to play the games. Instead, take a smaller profit. Nintendo makes most of their profits as a publisher. Any way they can get more consoles into people's homes ultimately means more games can be sold. Nintendo likely priced the Pro Controller for parity with Sony and Microsoft's controllers even though it actually includes and does less. I think they can improve consumer perception by keeping costs low. It helps them stand out. What's more important is how the actual console is perceived which brings us to...
Ian's Favorite Topic: Specs In a previous post, I mentioned that Nintendo traditionally chooses hardware they sell in the $200 to $250 range. If you do the math, that's pretty much where Wii U is when you take the GamePad and selling at a loss into account.
Let's say Nintendo launches a successor in 2017, five years after Wii U. While I'm not sure how true this is, I've read that PS4's specs are the equivalent of a mid-tier 2012/2013 PC. It's not cutting edge technology for its time like PS3 was. The bill of materials is estimated at $380 so they're losing money but a far more modest amount. That said, I'd like to see Nintendo's next console in the range of a mid-tier PC in 2017. That would be noticably more powerful than PS4/One. I'm not a spec whore and I'm content with how games look today. I thoroughly enjoy my Wii U so this isn't a commentary on its specs. However, I am going to suggest something in the next section that makes better specs more of a priority.
Before that, here's how I'm going to justify a $400 Nintendo console in 2017 with a greater loss per unit than Nintendo has ever taken: I'll be 30 next year. So? This means I've been a Nintendo fan and have been playing Nintendo games for most of my life. While my parents, who didn't really have videogames growing up, would have laughed at the idea of spending $400 on a videogame console, I might not. It may take some time to save that money, but for Mario and Zelda, I'd probably find a way. I feel like Nintendo hasn't completely considered the fact that people who were raised on Nintendo games most likely still play Nintendo games as adults. They can buy their own consoles and games now. And when they have kids, even if their kids want Halo, the kids always have exposure to Nintendo games. Nintendo fans have shown themselves to be a pretty devoted bunch and what people are willing to spend on videogames has increased over the years. I like saving money, but I also like Nintendo games. The latter usually wins eventually. Nintendo likes keeping prices down, but they can probably get away with a more expensive machine based almost entirely on the fact that they're Nintendo. The key is that people have to think the hardware is worth the money. Many people didn't buy into the idea that 3DS was worth $250. If Nintendo ever launched a $400 console, it has to be worth $400.
I would never advocate Nintendo take the several hundred dollars worth of losses on hardware that Sony and Microsoft did last generation. I'm a little apprehensive about suggesting they take a larger one than they did on Wii U, but since they've taken a loss before, maybe this is not such a bad idea. Hiroshi Yamauchi once said that people "do not play with the game machine itself. They play with the software, and they are forced to purchase a game machine in order to use the software. Therefore, the price of the machine should be as cheap as possible." The hardware should be affordable for what it is and the types of games people are trying to play. As previously stated, Nintendo makes most of their profits as a publisher. When a consumer buys Nintendo hardware, 100% of the time they're buying it for Nintendo software (and maybe something like Monster Hunter). Nintendo will make that money back and will do so sooner if they sell more consoles. Of course, they're going to have to find a way to make the console more attractive to a greater number of consumers. They need better public perception which comes from having a wider selection of games. How do they get that?
Run Steam Hear me out. And I understand that this is easier said than done. I don't know how they would implement it though I would think it would involve SteamOS somehow. It would require Nintendo to do a lot of things they either have been too stubborn to do or haven't figured out how to do effectively.
There has been talk of some kind of Steam support in the past, rumors before launch and that Toki Tori 2+ thing. The way I imagine it is that consumers link their Steam account to their Nintendo Network ID and access a joint Nintendo-Valve developed eshop. The only way this works is if it's under one umbrella. It can't be like Wii U's Wii Mode where you have to access it separately. This brings with it a few implications:
1. Nintendo's OS always runs in the background. The console automatically and seamlessly recognizes a Steam game. 2. Steam games on the eshop are labelled "Brought to you by Steam." Nintendo games are labelled "Only for Nintendo." 3. "Steam on Nintendo" functionally performs as Steam on anything else. All sales and bundles are available. Steam users can download any game already on their account as well as new games on their Nintendo console. Any controller compatible with Steam can be used with Steam games (compatibility with Nintendo's controller is, of course, imperative). Steam users who buy a Steam game on their Nintendo console can also download the same game on any other device they own that can play Steam games. 4. Steam games can be played using off-screen play. 5. Not sure if third parties would support this, but it would be awesome if a third party digital download (including Virtual Console) was purchased on Wii U and it's also available on Steam, linking a Steam account will allow that game to be downloaded on any other device they own that can play Steam games.
There would be one notable and obvious caveat: Nintendo's own games are not sold through Steam. They will always only be available and playable on Nintendo hardware which is what Nintendo wants. The reason why they have their own hardware is so they can control their software. There would be two stores for digital downloads masquerading as one store.
Essentially, Nintendo would be building a lower tier Steam Machine that also plays Nintendo games. That's why they should transition to x86-64 and include more powerful hardware. Better specs alone is not going to bring third parties back to Nintendo consoles. That could involve months of negotiations and possibly payouts and incentives. I think Nintendo can just skip that process by having a machine that can run past and current Steam games. More importantly, it would be beneficial if it was powerful enough to run future games decently. Eventually a few years down the road, games won't run as well on it, but isn't this still better than what Nintendo has now? They would have a wealth of content right from the beginning. Not every third party game on PS4/One comes to Steam, but this improves Nintendo's selection of games exponentially and perhaps more third party PS4/One games would come to Steam sooner rather than later.
This also brings Nintendo up to speed with the rest of the industry with what Steam provides as long as voice chat and stuff like that is also integrated into their own games.
Third Parties Let's get this out of the way: Nintendo MUST reach out to third parties and keep them informed. That has to change.
If Nintendo adds some weird new thing, let them know as early as possible. That way they can do something about it. I'm curious what it could be since Nintendo's additions such as touch, motion, second screen, and 3D are all based on ideas they wanted to implement earlier but couldn't due to technology not being where they needed it to be. Maybe 3rd parties wouldn't use it, but they should know it's there.
The most obvious question is: Why would third parties ever pay Nintendo licensing fees or for physical media when they could just release a game on Steam? The short answer is: the vast majority of the time, they wouldn't. Nintendo would be taking the stance of "Make games for us if you want and we'll support you in any way we can. If not, also fine." Technically, third parties wouldn't really have to deal with Nintendo directly; they would be under Valve's terms and conditions. Perhaps some third parties would like to take advantage of Nintendo's own exclusive features like Miiverse or GamePad support. Or they could be trying to reach the strictly physical media people, but realistically, that would be Ubisoft and Activision if they would even do it at all. Otherwise, through Steam, a metric ****-ton of third parties' games would be available on a Nintendo console without them technically paying Nintendo a dime. Maybe Nintendo could get a cut through a deal with Valve.
The second most obvious question is: Why would Nintendo ever do this? Besides "they probably wouldn't," they stand to benefit greatly through Steam implementation. The more consoles they sell, the more software they sell, the more money they make. Third parties could pay Nintendo to advertise their games available through Steam on Miiverse. This enables a lot of possibilities. Nintendo still gets to keep complete control of every aspect of their hardware and the distribution of their own titles by relenting control on what third parties do. The hardware just needs to be capable of running Steam. Nintendo would get third party support without really having to deal with them. They lose out on licensing fees, but how is that really different from today when support is so anemic? Sure, sometimes PC games are released late. So what? Most of the time, Nintendo isn't even getting those games. Ultimately, I think Nintendo can live with all of that. What Nintendo would really be doing is continue to exist in their bubble while letting everyone else do whatever they hell they want but doing so on the same console.
Origin No.
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Do I think Nintendo would ever do all of this? Absolutely not. They're too worried about total control and policing how people use their products (e.g. Swapnote). Still, I find it fun to think about.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: the asylum on December 07, 2013, 04:12:20 PM
I had no problem with motion controls. I actually like the Wii U controller. Strange as it may sound coming from me, I also think that developers have no problem with motion controls- the only reason why the Wii never got killer aps like Borderlands or ME was its pathetic hardware.
but here's my wish list:
1. System power- The Wii got written off by big studios because of "DERP TWO GAMECUBES TAPED TOGETHER HURR" mindset. A poor mindset, sure, but if developers dont like a system, they won't bother with it. Hence, the flood of shovelware that plagued the Wii. Wii U being written off in much the same manner, only it doens't have the sales number to justify it. The 3DS got away with it because it's a handheld, which always will be inferior to home consoles.
2. Digital purchases tied to accounts, not hardware. Steam got it right, Microsoft got it right, hell, even EA got it right. EA. Its stuff like this that perpetuates the idea that Nintendo has no idea what decade it is.
3. One controller. ONE. Nobody likes having to buy two or three different controllers for the same system
3a. And on that note, whatever controller Nintendo does go with, make sure the system can support 4 of them at once.
seriously
they shouldnt have to be told this.
4. Drop the "wii" name. The word "Wii" has become incurably toxic to third parties. And it sounds stupid too.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: TheBossGaro on December 07, 2013, 07:39:08 PM
I don't see the Wii U name as such a huge issue. Truthfully, the only people who don't know it's a new console are the "casual/non gamers" that put the Wii sales through the roof, and I'd be willing to bet they don't care about a new console anyway.
Consider this: the concept of next gen is pretty much exclusive to the video game industry. Sure, all forms of technology from TVs to cars advance, but its much more gradual. I can still drive my 89 Ford Ranger without any problems. The need to be current is not as important. Thus, to a non gamer, they probably apply the same principle to gaming systems. They can continue to play Wii Sports on the Wii and enjoy it without having to buy a new console. That's all they bought it for anyway.
I think Nintendo's problem is continuing to reach out to the casual gamer. They sort of bottled lightning with the Wii. It's not gonna happen again. They need to fully turn their focus back to the hardcore gamers who kept them afloat every generation before the Wii. And they all know the Wii U is a new console.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 07, 2013, 09:19:31 PM
Fun Topic. I agree with most of your suggestions, but I will make a few new ones.
1) Card based games are a must for what you mentioned, but I will say another benefit. Handheld/console cross play. Here is my idea. Do not have a single system console/portable, but have two systems, and scalable games. Basically, each game is playable on the console and portable. Graphics and effects can be scalable so that the next Mario games can be played on both systems. Now, I know what you are thinking. HORRIBLE idea, because people will not buy both systems. I say bull. I say, being able to have games on the big screen at home and on the go is a game changer, that allows for people to pick how they want to play their games.
2) Virtual Console support and unified account. I think this is important. Unify everything. Allow gamers to add up to 5 devices to your accounts and your downloaded games can be played on all those. Go the Apple route and position yourself as a true FAMILY console. You buy digital Pokemon for the system. Great, your entire family can play it now. Obviously, this is only for download only games...which helps promote digital only sells.
3) Controllers: Keep the Wii U Pro controller untouched and the default classic controller for games. Phase out the Gamepad controller AND the classic Wii motion remote for an updated one. Which will be described below. I agree controllers should be cheaper. So I think controllers should be priced less than a new game. And continue bonus packages of classic Pro controllers with games.
4) The entire controller in one purchase. The Wiimote and nunchuk are awesome, and New motion controls need to be the entire package and viewed as a single entity not an add on. I think the remote can be refined. I think the refinement should be focused on adding 2 more buttons for actions. One on top, and one more trigger. If that is not possible, two more on top. Think Gamecube design big button and two bean shaped buttons. Nunchuk should have more motion accuracy.
5)I said they should drop Gamepad support, and also integrate the handheld system and game console together...and here is where my ideas come together. The new handheld should be cheap. Like top price $150.00 To make this price possible. Nintendo should cut 3D out of the system...and design it to only be just alittle more powerful than the current 3DS at most a 3DS X 2.0. This will allow the new DS system to replace the Gamepad controller at a reasonable price, but also play games on the go. Priced as a bargain, and parents and gamers seeing the system as an extension of their console system it will sell very well.
6) Modern design for online features. I like Nintendo's user interfaces whimsical design, and I think it should be kept, but I think Nintendo needs to make a progressive modern take on internet play and communication. Suggestions could include: Using FaceTime protocols for video chat, and allowing Nintendo to video chat with all iphone devices. For that matter, see about getting on the iphone messenger service for chat and communication. Incorporate it also into the new handheld. Build all match making, cross game chat, video, voice, all communications into the many operating system and not games. If I am playing Zelda single player I should be able to join a chat with my friends playing Smash Bros, if we all want to talk together.
7) To hell with 3rd parties. Go for Exclusives. Now, I don't mean don't pursue 3rd parties. I mean take a different approach. My vision is two unified systems that play nicely together. Buy a console game and it plays the portable game. Buy the digitial game once, and you can play it with up to 5 registered systems. This means all Nintendo development teams are working for the same system. Push games out hard and fast of varying budgets and sizes. Give your teams creativity to build simple puzzle games and release them when they are ready. Now, about those 3rd parties? Commission them to design classic Nintendo games, or hand pick them to design exclusive console experiences. I don't mean to moneybag huge multi-million dollar classics. But instead, look to fund small digital releases like the Konami rebirth series or Mega Man 9 and 10 games. Use it to release smaller budget games that will bring interest to the system.
8) As for system specs I don't care. You don't have to jump as high as Microsoft and Sony, just try better than the Wii U.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: MagicCow64 on December 08, 2013, 05:40:04 PM
I actually like that Steam fusion idea quite a bit. As you said, it sidesteps the massive and probably uncorrectable disconnect between Nintendo and most publishers. It's also a nice compromise between settling into a permanent Nintendobox niche and going third party themselves. The way the tech world is going anyway, I have my doubts that isolated consoles are going to be viable anyway in five years. This arrangement, or something in that ballpark, might not be outside the realm of possibility given how restless stockholders are going to get in the next few years.
My dog:
Forget virtual console purchases altogether, past and future. Buying a Nintendo-Steam-Phantom box grants you streaming access to the entire NES-Gamecube library on the console itself. They've milked most of the old titles enough, and if their install base keeps shrinking they won't make significant VC revenue anyway. And a lot of the contemporary Dewrito Nintendo haters still love the old stuff, so this could win back some mindshare. The fact that Sony didn't totally try to screw over the consumer off the bat with the PS4 earned them an enormous amount of goodwill.
Not sure how you'd do Wii and Wii U software, though, given that in such a scenario the legacy peripherals wouldn't work anymore, and the viability of reliably streaming post-Gamecube era games is questionable.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Stogi on December 08, 2013, 06:05:15 PM
EDIT: I'm gonna make this a new topic.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 08, 2013, 08:29:42 PM
Actually if next system Nintendo decided to charge for online. I think a good way to provide value would be to allow streaming of classic NES and SNES games for the fee of the online service. You can still have the option to buy the game which could be used to allow play offline, and on your portable.
I could see Nintendo taking this all the way to the Nintendo 64. No real need to take it all the way to Gamecube though...however if Nintendo chose to do that I would be all for it.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 08, 2013, 08:47:04 PM
HORRIBLE idea, because people will not buy both systems. I say bull. I say, being able to have games on the big screen at home and on the go is a game changer, that allows for people to pick how they want to play their games.
Some people would buy both. I, personally, wouldn't. The only reason I buy Nintendo's handhelds is because I can't play those games elsewhere, notably on Nintendo's home console.
Quote
As for system specs I don't care. You don't have to jump as high as Microsoft and Sony, just try better than the Wii U.
Personally, I don't care about them. At the same time, they matter to the people making games and I think it says a lot about the disconnect between Nintendo and third parties when Nintendo decides, "Here are the specs. Make games now," instead of asking them what their thoughts are. Of course, developers will always ask for the best specs, but that's why communication is key. Bounce ideas back and forth, meet halfway, and so on.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 08, 2013, 09:41:56 PM
Adrock. You are a perfect example about the market. Some people only play console games...so they will only buy the console. Some people will only buy the handheld. That is OK too. Because now they have an easy choice for their second system. Buy a Nintendo, it doesn't matter which one, because you can play all their games.
Now, some people will end up buying both the console and the handheld and they actually get the best deal out of their loyalty because they can buy a game once and play it both places. On the go, and at home.
As for system specs, I do think they are important, which is why I said to do better than the Wii U. However, I do not think it is the only element, and as such they should do better, but they do not have to best or equal...just present something that is capable.
And of course communication is key.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 08, 2013, 09:48:05 PM
I like my idea of a handheld/home console hybrid better.
It's primarily a handheld with a base station that connects it to the TV. base station also allows multiple handhelds to work for multiplayer on the TV
I elaborated on it somewhere, if I run across it, I'll crosspost it. But I also like alot of the ideas in the OP.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Wah on December 08, 2013, 10:02:34 PM
I agree that the WiiU should be able to run STEAM! Imagine it! TF2 and Counter-Strike and Gary's Mod and Half-Life and Left for Dead all on the WiiU!
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 08, 2013, 10:08:29 PM
I think the handheld/home console hybrid is the best way to to go, perhaps 2 models.
A five inch model with no TV module for $150-$200
A seven inch model with the TV module and sensor bar and a game for $250-$350
Dolphin Style emulation
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: nickmitch on December 08, 2013, 11:26:05 PM
If Nintendo HAD to go with a new controller, I'd like them to go back to the GC design. Add the extra Z-button, make the C-stick more like a regular stick, increase the size of the D-Pad, and maybe make a few other changes.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 09, 2013, 12:09:34 AM
I like my idea of a handheld/home console hybrid better.
It's primarily a handheld with a base station that connects it to the TV. base station also allows multiple handhelds to work for multiplayer on the TV
I elaborated on it somewhere, if I run across it, I'll crosspost it. But I also like alot of the ideas in the OP.
I like your idea as well, however I don't think Nintendo will go for it. I like the idea of a charge station, docking bay that makes it a console. I like cards so that the medium is fast and sturdy.
However, I think my idea is a compromise of ideas that brings both solutions. Nintendo wants to sell as many consoles as possible, and sell multiple handhelds per family...if possible. Gamers want more games and and value. Nintendo wants to rebuild its strength in the console market, and keep its handheld dominance. It solves all those solutions.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: sweetfeathery on December 09, 2013, 01:09:28 AM
One of Nintendo's biggest problems this generation is releasing a steady flow of games on two separate consoles. Nintendo can do away with this problem by having only one console to work with. Why not have a beefed up, more powerful 3DS handheld that can also be played on the television using an adapter?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on December 09, 2013, 03:18:16 PM
Adrock, you're pretty much describing what I wanted the Wii U to be. I would probably stick with discs but aside from that I agree with this rest. Hell it isn't even discs or cards, it's what is the rest of the industry doing. If they're sticking with discs you go with discs. If everyone else is moving to cards you sure as hell don't be the only guys using discs.
I think the philosophy going into the design is to assume that this will be the only current console that a person owns. Therefore any inadequacy in comparison to the other consoles on the market is damaging to the user's experience. Nintendo consoles since the N64 have asked their users to cut them slack and live with missing features. Please make do with higher prices for games without FMV or red book audio. Please make do without online multiplayer. Please make do without HD graphics and games that look almost indistinguishable from the previous generation. Please make do with games that look like they're from the previous generation, uh, again. And of course all of this involves making do with weak third party support and lots of basic stuff being done in a goofy Nintendo manner for seemingly no reason. Frankly it's somewhat miraculous that a company that always asks their customers to accept compromises that no one else does managed to survive three generations of this and only now are finding themselves in trouble.
So the features that everyone else has need to be there. The hardware needs to be comparable. The third party support has to be comparable. The online experience has to be comparable. If one was to make a features checklist for all three consoles, Nintendo's goal should be to not have N/A appear under their column or if a ranking was made for them to be last. Now these things will happen anyway but the goal should be to avoid them. With the Wii U they didn't TRY to avoid being worst in specs. That was intentional design. It was a compromise they were asking their customers to cut them slack on. Anyway they have to make a favourable comparison and do what is necessary to achieve that.
Oh, but doesn't Nintendo need to stand out? That's why they went with the Wiimote and Gamepad, right? The thing is that Nintendo is a better first party developer than anyone else. Same general thing but with Nintendo games is a selling point! The difference between Sony and MS appears to be the exclusives and Nintendo already wins there. They wouldn't even need third party exclusives. They just need to be included in the multiplatform releases and let their own titles make the difference.
Now Nintendo won't do it because they're stubborn and kind of greedy. They might not feel they even CAN release such a console. So in that sense the console/handheld hybrid is probably the better idea. They really just have to make the handheld they normally would and just let it output to a TV and connect to additional controllers. I think this is the future anyway, the question is just when it will be. Maybe next gen or maybe we'll get another gen of "normal" consoles first. If it is the future then the other guys will go to it at some point or a new competitor like Apple will lead the way.
I realize that my console suggestion applies mostly to what makes sense for right now, as if Nintendo was to try to get a Wii U successor out by late 2014. In 2020 who knows what will make sense? The hybrid might be the best idea. The philosophy of not intentionally having compromises will work in any time period however.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ceric on December 09, 2013, 03:39:49 PM
At this day and age if I were to release a new console I peg whatever the most taxing game is on PC today. Then get hardware that has an easy time running it in 1080p 60FPS 3D Max Settings. That should set me up well for when I actually release. If you keep the Gamepad then also with 4 Gamepads AT THE SAME TIME pumping max resolution unique content on each screen 60FPS.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 09, 2013, 04:56:40 PM
Yeah, I'm sure the next DS/Handheld will be some Gameboy Ultra that doubles as a Wii U Controller, plays Wii U games, and is essentially the portable handheld version of the Wii U in the form of it's own GamePad with a little extra added to it. This will be their "3rd Pillar" of the gen and an experiment to phase out the failing Wii U by merging it with their successful handheld business.
This new handheld portable console will also have a Chromecast-like device that will allow streaming of content (2nd screen) directly to your TV using an additional HDMI port. It will be the size of a Roku just because Nintendo wants some brand presence on your shelf. It will also handle multiplayer family/party games by also allowing the use of wiimotes and connection of the sensor bar (Just Dance, Wii Sports, etc etc)
All to be announced in 2015. you heard it here first.
Essentially Nintendo would be making a Wii U++ about the size of a slightly larger PS Vita (and smaller than the current gamepad - it has to be portable).
The Base (aka TVbox) unit to be more of an entertainment box (like a Roku) that can be used with just the Wiimotes if need be, but only for basic gaming, such as VC and simple download games, and entertainment apps, like Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Vudu, etc etc. Any complex gaming will require the Handheld Portable Controller as that is where the processing power is at.
Multiplayer/splitscreen gaming on the TV would go through the TVbox to display up on the TV.
The Handheld will function much like if the gamepad were it's own handheld system, completely independent of the TVbox. Portable, Wifi, SD card support, Unified Nintendo Acct/Username, VC games, DLC, Apps, Chat, Miiverse, Internet Browser, wireless multiplayer, front and back camera, touchscreen, same buttons, etc etc. all the same features and then some. When connected to the base station it will work much like the GamePad and the Wii U only with more multi-tasking freedom as both units can work independent of each other. Yet the base station aka TVBox is not a complete system w/o the handheld portable/controller.
The beauty of this approach is that everyone will want their own portable/controller as any of them will work with the base (like the first wiimote activated takes the #1 position). The Family Acct will allow all family registered portables/controllers that connect through the base station to access from the same pool of purchased software regardless of which actual personal acct bought them (Parental Controls supersedes access though). So now each individual not only has their own personal Universal Remote (major selling point) for whatever controllable device in the house, but they also have thier own personal customized entertainment device and game machine that only has what they want on it organized the way they want it.
Separate base stations (TVboxes) sold separately, for like the price of a Roku ($75-$99). bundle comes with wiimote+ for basic usage.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 09, 2013, 07:47:17 PM
Black and Mild: Your vision and my vision are very similar.
I feel like you look at the TV Box to being basically an Apple TV, with a docking system and a small hard drive in it. I can totally agree with that approach. Then the handheld is the main brains.
It basically takes the concept of the Wii U, and switches it. the brains are not in the box connected to the TV, but the controller.
I think the big problem with this approach is you can micro-size the computer enough to be powerful enough to be a next generation system, AND a portable. So making the handheld device the smaller $150-$199 game system is a better direction. Then the console will be more powerful, but also look and feel like a more traditional console system...but still have a docking system.
Media will be SD like cards that store games basically like the 3DS, but with higher capacity.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 09, 2013, 08:05:16 PM
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 09, 2013, 08:07:26 PM
Yes, you could think of it as the Apple TV & iPhone approach. That's a very good way of simplifying it.
Everyone will have thier own iPhone, and you can all share the Apple TV using your iPhone as the controller.
And of course the Apple TV has its own remote so you can use it without the use of an iPhone.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Mannypon on December 09, 2013, 08:14:01 PM
I'm also in the camp of BlacknMild and Spak-Spang in I believe Nintendo is headed towards merging their 2 tier strategy. Given they are now trying to unify their development process throughout the company I believe they are looking to have their handheld developers and home console developers on the same page so their work can easily apply to one side or the other (both). In another 5 years, I believe they'll be the tech possible to create a handheld system we all speak of.
SPECS: With this approach, you can completely forget Nintendo staying spec to spec with the other 2 players unless they too are taking Nintendo's approach. I personally think Nintendo will always stay 1 "generation" behind spec wise as 1: they don't need it themselves and 2: it'll be too expensive to match MS and Sony's next home consoles while still remain portable.
NAME: As for the name, I think the Wii brand is dead. They tried to further build on it with the WiiU but its clear that the Wii crowd is long gone; probably moved on towards tablets, mobile games, are not gaming anymore, or quite possibly still using their Wiis. I would love Nintendo to just keep it simple and follow the number system the others use. Call it the N7 (Nintendo 7th gen entertainment system). Its easy to remember, rolls off the lips, and should look good as a logo (I can't help but think of Mass Effect lol)
Here's an image for reference for those that don't know (http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/319/0/e/n7___mass_effect___wallpaper_by_wtflawlxd-d2mwup7.jpg)
As for the base console, I think they should release one that looks sleek, small, and modern. For the initial launch, play off the nostalgia of your fan base and release a limited edition, only for initial preorders, NES skinned model.
Here's another image for reference, though the base console will probably be much smaller. (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3V62_2G-5hnD5VhRRmNmwqH6OjnPcogkr2bem5gIeYz_G0-87Dw)
EVERYTHING ELSE: I like everything else you have all stated in regards to accounts and the VC, slap that all in and this complete package is sold (at least to me lol).
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 10, 2013, 12:46:32 AM
Adrock, you're pretty much describing what I wanted the Wii U to be. I would probably stick with discs but aside from that I agree with this rest. Hell it isn't even discs or cards, it's what is the rest of the industry doing. If they're sticking with discs you go with discs. If everyone else is moving to cards you sure as hell don't be the only guys using discs.
I described a very consumer-friendly device. Sony and Microsoft aren't even doing all of those things. I tried to think of a machine that encourages the purchase of actual games above all things. That's why I suggested that Nintendo go against the grain and offer cheaper controllers. Those things are obscenely expensive. People may justify buying an extra game if the extra controller they bought was $25 instead of $55. I don't believe in powerful hardware for the sake of powerful hardware or for porting through sheer brute force. It has to be justified. And if third parties still refused to develop for it, that doubly sucks for Nintendo since they'd be on their own and have to make up for a greater loss per unit. However, if Nintendo could get better third party support by going through the backdoor, that's something that might be worth it.
Anyway, I don't know if just following the rest of the industry is necessarily the best way. In some circumstances, sure, but it also encourages stagnation. It's important to strike a balance. Since games are just being installed on a hard drive on PS4, I feel like discs as a vessel for game data is kind wasteful. Cards offer clear benefits over discs in everything except price and in this scenario, Nintendo would mostly be the only ones using them. Of course, if a third party wanted to offer a retail version, it would help everyone if Nintendo wasn't a dick about the storage medium like they were with N64 cartridges.
I'm also in the camp of BlacknMild and Spak-Spang in I believe Nintendo is headed towards merging their 2 tier strategy. Given they are now trying to unify their development process throughout the company I believe they are looking to have their handheld developers and home console developers on the same page so their work can easily apply to one side or the other (both). In another 5 years, I believe they'll be the tech possible to create a handheld system we all speak of.
I'm still not sold at all on a hybrid system. I've stated reasons for it before. I'd rather Nintendo keep them separate because I don't know if they could pull it off. If they could, by all means, go for it. Otherwise, they work well as separate entities; they just need more interaction and integration. If I played Final Fantasy VI on 4DS, when I walk through my door, my save data should be updated on my Nintendo 7. If I Streetpassed a bunch of people, when I walk through my door, they should show up in my WaraWara Plaza. If I'm at my mom's house and I buy a Nintendo 7 eshop game from my 4DS, maybe it'll already be downloaded and installed by the time I get home.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 10, 2013, 11:34:03 AM
I don't think most consumers consider accessory price when they come to consoles. The 360 had Live at 50 required for multiplayer games. Assuming you want that (most gamers would) that became an 800 console. But that sold like hotcakes over the ps3 because people saw 600 > 400. I wish we would go back to packing 2 controllers with a system though. That would be good enough for most people.
Yeah I don't think the hybrid is where it's going and that's been discussed at great lengths before. I see the long term console future moving to cheap streaming boxes like on-live and not being able to provide enough power for mobile gaming without the cloud. Obviously we are not there yet.
I am starting to think though that Nintendo is prepping to replace the Wii U. Not changing obviously flawed targets indicates to me they are going to do something. My guess is they are prepping a console replacement either this holiday or for spring of 2015. I think they'll try to sell it a two pronged strategy where the Wii U is tablet gaming and the successor if for traditional gaming and they'll both coexist. Not that they will coexist, but I think they have to try to appease Wii U owners that it wasn't a wasted purchase. I think their first party titles will get released for both the Wii U and the new machine for at least a year before they let the Wii U die.
I think it's best to keep expectations low for changes that Nintendo will make. I also think that all the changes to hardware won't matter if they dont work hard to get third parties on board.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 10, 2013, 12:31:50 PM
I highly doubt Nintendo has a replacement home console system in the works for 1 year from now.
It is much more likely that Nintendo would pursue the hybrid portable route (in 2016) to succeed the 3DS and phase out a failing Wii U than attempt to replace the Wii U after its second full year on the market. (Nintendo would NEVER Dreamcast themselves... would they!?)
And to talk about keeping expectations low for changes that Nintendo would make... Killing a console really early with a replacement is a big change to make. I would bet on quirky and innovative before I bet on that.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 10, 2013, 12:50:48 PM
We'll see. I think Nintendo is uncharted territory with a very unpopular console and operating losses. I think they are going to do something drastic. I don't think that means moving towards third party yet, but we'll see.
Why would they want to destroy their most successful part? Everything they touch in the handheld arena turns to gold. I'm just not sure why they'd want to do that and there is no reason to believe that getting 3DS games onto the Wii U would solve the Wii U's problems (in fact many of those games are already there). Plus, I don't see the market moving that direction. Microsoft isn't interested in handhelds and they are trying to get everything connected to the cloud so they don't need a future of handheld machines to make that happen. Sony tried and will probably not make another handheld after the Vita failed to reproduce the sales of the PSP.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on December 10, 2013, 01:00:47 PM
If Nintendo was to attempt to replace the Wii U mid-generation, backwards compatibility is a must to smooth things over with existing Wii U owners who would likely be pissed off that their new console only lasted two years. But then the whole reason to do so is because it isn't selling so it's not like tons of people would be affected. Odds are Wii U owners would be the hardest Nintendo fans to offend.
I've thought of an idea where they release a successor but have some setup where there is also an add-on that turns a Wii U into the successor console. This all assumes that they two consoles build off each other and that the concept is technologically feasible. All the marketing goes to the standalone which is what's in stores while the add-on upgrade is like an online order only thing for the existing customers. The concept lets existing Wii U owners upgrade for a lower price. But that does seem like a lot of work to appease a small group of people. Would cutting off the Wii U early turn enough customers off of Nintendo to worry about it?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 10, 2013, 01:11:27 PM
Nintendo making a hybrid handheld would bring the success of the handheld to the tv, like you said, thier handheld sector is gold, this would be spreading that wealth.
3rd parties are already on board with the handheld. Sony is the only other handheld and Nintendo is getting squeezed out of the traditional console, so a hybrid would be a type of drastic measure that would make sense. And it still leaves the door open for releasing a traditional console to replace the "TVbox" down the line, knowing that a majority of gamers already have the controllers in hand, and that additional controller to pack in would be much cheaper to produce by then.
based on your own argument above, I think the Hybrid handled/console makes more sense. Nintendo would own the whole handheld market while also keeping their got in the door of the console market at the same time as strengthening their smart box app game.
They would unify their game development efforts, most 3rd parties are already down with Nintendo the handheld arena, more resources can be put toward VC , ware, apps, dlc, cloud, more games, assisting other developers, establishing more partnerships/3rd parties, etc etc.
It just makes so much sense that I honestly think Nintendo might do what you suggested instead.... :/ how depressing. Why do you have to be this way Nintendo!!?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 10, 2013, 01:48:14 PM
I knew I shouldn't respond because this would digress into another handheld argument that has been beat to death.
I really couldn't disagree more with pretty much every thing you think will happen with a handheld/hybrid. But I've already responded in other threads to those as have others about the serious shortcomings so i'll not add them here. Lets just stay realistic. Wii U loses money now. You want to double the specs and shrink it into a handheld? You want to bump the tablet to HD and add multi touch? Lets talk about a $700 hybrid /console not a $200 console. I cant be the only one who knows the Wii U is more powerful than an ipad. Also take the # of 3DS Nintendo games divide by 4 because console development is much more resource intensive than handheld. Might as well forget about handheld third party support being a bonus because it sucks compared to PS3/Xbox360 support.
Ian - it's not only current Wii U owners. People that would consider their next console will probably think maybe I should wait 2 years to make sure they don't dump this console as well. But things are pretty bad with the Wii U so they may feel they have no choice to move on. The greater problem still would exist. How do you get people that won't buy a Wii U to buy the next one. It's not an easy answer.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on December 10, 2013, 02:24:33 PM
Ian - it's not only current Wii U owners. People that would consider their next console will probably think maybe I should wait 2 years to make sure they don't dump this console as well. But things are pretty bad with the Wii U so they may feel they have no choice to move on. The greater problem still would exist. How do you get people that won't buy a Wii U to buy the next one. It's not an easy answer.
It's a tough situation no matter what. Either some people will be afraid Nintendo will abandon their next console too early or the Wii U limps along for five years and kills any relevance Nintendo has in the console sector. Sticking with a bomb for too long isn't a good idea either. Realistically having any sort of unsuccessful product is going to hurt your reputation so Nintendo just has to go with what they feel will be the better option. And if they're actually losing money on the Wii U then they have no choice, public perception be damned.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 10, 2013, 03:12:42 PM
I knew I shouldn't respond because this would digress into another handheld argument that has been beat to death.
I really couldn't disagree more with pretty much every thing you think will happen with a handheld/hybrid. But I've already responded in other threads to those as have others about the serious shortcomings so i'll not add them here. Lets just stay realistic. Wii U loses money now. You want to double the specs and shrink it into a handheld? You want to bump the tablet to HD and add multi touch? Lets talk about a $700 hybrid /console not a $200 console. I cant be the only one who knows the Wii U is more powerful than an ipad. Also take the # of 3DS Nintendo games divide by 4 because console development is much more resource intensive than handheld. Might as well forget about handheld third party support being a bonus because it sucks compared to PS3/Xbox360 support.
First I'm talking about 3 years from now. Shrinking the Wii U with maybe a bump in processor speed or/RAM. Never said anything about doubling the specs. I called it a Wii U++ (streamlined and refined) in portable form. If Sony can get the Vita out at a reasonable price with multi-touch now w/o taking a loss, then there is no reason Nintendo shouldn't be able to do the same with a WiiUportable in 2016.
And 3DS 3rd party support may not be the holy grail that PS360 have now, but it sure as hell beats what the Wii had and certainly better than what the Wii U is getting. Take better than Vita specs and Nintendo's Handheld presence & market penetration, mixed with being the only real option for portable gaming. Top that off with being able to play the games on the TV without having to buy a super expensive 2nd console (just like VitaTV - yes Sony is already doing it), the ability to play those same games multiplayer with in expensive controllers you likely already own (wiimotes) or with other handheld owners on your TV, and I think we have a very interesting experiment here.
Nintendo already built a new facility to bring the Handheld and console guys together under one roof and probably one development manager. It makes sense to think that they would want to further integrate the console and handheld experience. The Wii U is already a tester for the concept of a handheld/console hybrid. Connectivity is something they've been testing for over a decade. Taking the Wii U to the next level and putting the meat of the console itself into the controller and making the controller it's own stand-alone unit sounds like the logical next step. Much more so than another failed attempt at directly competing with Sony & MS in the home console market where 3rd parties have more or less let them know that they don't really want to support a Nintendo console.... for ummm, reasons.
So I'm not sure what other arguments you made that debunk the validity of such an idea in other threads, but the ones you've made here don't really seem like they would put the idea off the table. I really don't see how leveraging the success of the handheld into the long time failing home console market is "destroying their most successful part" Especially since it doesn't rule out the release of a real home console to replace the "TVbox" portion of the hybrid (or did you just skim my version of the hybrid handheld/console? it's a 2 part piece of machinery).
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: nickmitch on December 10, 2013, 03:31:04 PM
It'll be hard for Nintendo to even launch a new home console with three still on the market, come to think of it.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 10, 2013, 03:50:15 PM
Seriously.
I think Nintendo will ride this out for atleast another year, see if they can right this ship. Another price cut next year, some big game announcements, a surprise or 2 later... If Xmas 2014 is as bad or worse than this year, desperation will force their hand and they will announce something for release end of 2015.
That will be 4.5yrs into the 3DS life cycle. right about the time a successor should be coming anyway. Will Nintendo rush another console out the door? Will they push the successor to the 3DS? or will it be a little bit of both?
sounds like time for a new Poll Thread.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 10, 2013, 03:59:28 PM
Thinking about it, would a unified development platform have the same benefit? Compatible hardware between the console and the handheld, and the same dev software. An eshop get released on one would be cross compatible and share one license.
So if you bought HarmoKnight 2 on the 4DS you could play it under your NNID on the Wii 3 and vice versa.
Obviously, some titles would be console exclusive because of the horsepower, but this would solve the software support issue for the console, at least in part.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 10, 2013, 04:16:56 PM
If they could get enough horsepower in the next handheld, then having a development engine like UNITY where you essentially code the game you want and then "click a button" to compile it for certain hardware, then yes a unified development system could have similar effect if the 2 consoles allowed crossplay. Crossplay would probably require a digital purchase though (or a registration code that linked the game to your account forever).
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 10, 2013, 04:19:20 PM
For better or worse, I expect digital purchase to dominate across all platforms next-gen.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Kytim89 on December 10, 2013, 04:39:29 PM
Would the hybrid be one system or two separate ones? What Nintendo would is release one system similar to the Wii U in that the handheld (4DS) comes with the system. Nintendo could just re-brand the Wii U Pro controllers as the exclusive controller for the home console. By the time this happens wi-fi should be able to allow streaming of home console to the handheld console.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on December 10, 2013, 05:51:32 PM
Thinking about it, would a unified development platform have the same benefit? Compatible hardware between the console and the handheld, and the same dev software. An eshop get released on one would be cross compatible and share one license.
So if you bought HarmoKnight 2 on the 4DS you could play it under your NNID on the Wii 3 and vice versa.
Obviously, some titles would be console exclusive because of the horsepower, but this would solve the software support issue for the console, at least in part.
I'm worried that if it not literally the exact same machine that runs the same physical or digital copies of the game that we'll get Sony's handheld problem where having the same game on both the console and handheld makes one of them redundant in the eyes of the consumer. If Nintendo did this I think the console would just bomb because Nintendo's big games would be on the handheld so why bother getting the console? I think just having similar games on the 3DS like NSMB 2 and Super Mario 3D Land has hurt the appeal of the Wii U. Having literally the same game would be even worse.
Console games used to provide an obvious improvement over the handheld experience. You dealt with more scaled down games to achieve portability. Once the two can provide the same experience the need for the separation is gone. Going back a gen with the Wii has put their consoles only one gen up on the handheld when it used to be two. The GBA wasn't going to be able to have similar games to the Gamecube but the 3DS can have pretty similar games to the Wii U. So why does anyone need the console if it provides no obvious advantage? That's why I think having the systems one-in-the-same makes sense, unless Nintendo wants to give their consoles the obvious advantage.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 10, 2013, 08:04:12 PM
My thoughts: Nintendo CAN NOT Dreamcast themselves. If Nintendo prematurely ends the Wii U then they are signaling their weakness in the console market completely. The Wii U will be viewed as a failure and anything Nintendo tries to do will be viewed as a risk. It will basically KILL their console market completely.
That said, Nintendo could try to create that hybrid Bridge console/portable. Basically they would need to be able to shrink a Wii U into a portable device, like Black and Mild suggested late 2015 is the EARLIEST this could happen However holiday season 2016 is more likely. It would have given the 3DS a long life before the transition would have ironed out the unified account system. It would give time to make technology cheaper. However, by then I am afraid even a Wii U powered handheld would appear weak on the market. I guess an upgraded processor and RAM (much like the iPad style updates) would work.
Now, I re-read Adrock's original post. The steam integration is brilliant. Valve wants STEAM in the living room. Nintendo wants 3rd parties. If Nintendo could just base their newest operating system using Linux, then they can be a steam box. Right out of the box, this allows Nintendo to have 3rd party support. They don't have to beg for it. Or ask for special treatment or exclusives or anything. They just get it. Also, they get steam's online community and infrastructure. However, implementing this would be hard...and I don't think Nintendo would like to share their 3rd party profits like that.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: nickmitch on December 10, 2013, 08:11:04 PM
Wouldn't Steam integration have the same problem as launching a new console that you just mentioned? I mean, putting Steam on the Wii U kinda says that Nintendo needed to artificially create 3rd party support. Plus, that means splitting profits with Valve.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 10, 2013, 08:18:11 PM
I'd rather they split profits than not have ;)
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 10, 2013, 08:32:05 PM
If Nintendo did a consolidated software platform, it would be like Dell selling laptops and desktops. Most people need only one and some people buy both.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 10, 2013, 08:36:04 PM
What about this: Nintendo releases the 4DS in 2015 with a 5 inch 480p screen.
Then in 2016, instead of releasing an 4DS XL or 4DS Lite, they release the 4DS DELUXE with a 7 inch 1080p screen (with enough horsepower to run the games at that resolution) and a TV dongle.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 10, 2013, 09:01:23 PM
Nickmitch: Not at all. It would be viewed as a feature, and Nintendo aggressively seeking out 3rd party partnerships in a manner that supports gamers.
I know I would buy a Nintendo if it meant I could have steam sales and games in my living room along with exclusive Nintendo games on one single system. However, this would drastically change the market for selling games on Nintendo systems. Nintendo would have to adopt Steam like pricing for games, so would 3rd parties...and Nintendo would potentially have to lower game prices and provide similar type Steam sales. This to me would actually prove a huge benefit for Nintendo but Nintendo may view it as a liability.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 10, 2013, 09:03:05 PM
First I'm talking about 3 years from now. Shrinking the Wii U with maybe a bump in processor speed or/RAM. Never said anything about doubling the specs. I called it a Wii U++ (streamlined and refined) in portable form. If Sony can get the Vita out at a reasonable price with multi-touch now w/o taking a loss, then there is no reason Nintendo shouldn't be able to do the same with a WiiUportable in 2016.
So I'm not sure what other arguments you made that debunk the validity of such an idea in other threads, but the ones you've made here don't really seem like they would put the idea off the table. I really don't see how leveraging the success of the handheld into the long time failing home console market is "destroying their most successful part" Especially since it doesn't rule out the release of a real home console to replace the "TVbox" portion of the hybrid (or did you just skim my version of the hybrid handheld/console? it's a 2 part piece of machinery).
There's a search portion on this site. Check it out sometime. Alot of threads degrades into portions of the same argument. http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=42455.50 (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=42455.50)
I don't see it as leveraging at all. I see it as killing off the handheld portion of the business and hoping that your console portion becomes successes. I like Adrock's idea of being able having saves transfer and having the portable buy a game and having it auto download for the main console. That's a neat idea.
I just don't see a hybrid as innovative. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Want to play handheld games? There's a 3DS. Want to play console games, there's a Wii U. They are different because the markets for those items want different things. A 3DS meets the demands of the market perfectly. To shrink hardware you always pay a premium. To develop a game for a 50" 4K 3D TV (where the console market is going) you are always going to have too much power in a handheld. Parents have proven they won't spend $250 en mass to fit their children each with their own game system. You are pushing things on the handheld market they do not want. $150 for a 3DS is perfect for what the market expects. The handheld market doesn't want to pay $60 for 4K games when they were happy with their $30 games. And I don't know how the console market benefits either. PS4/XBO owners aren't clamoring for ports of those titles or they'd likely get them. I don't see $60 copies of Layton moving Wii U's.
Technology in general will get cheaper, but I don't think we are 3 years away. Processors aren't increasing at the rate they used to and we are reaching the points of economical feasibility to keep shrinking them. The Vita is certainly no home console. I do think it's funny though, one of the biggest knocks on the Wii U is it is under-powered. But we expect people to accept limited handheld power as a trade off of a hybrid system when the console market has never asked for less power?
You are solving a problem that doesn't exist. The problem is and always has been Nintendo's interactions with third parties. Can they salvage that? Yes, they can. Will they? Probably not because Japanese companies are very stubborn.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 10, 2013, 09:08:11 PM
Steam integration is a unique feature, but I don't see Steam going for it without maintaining all the profits. It would be Steam's store and their servers. They already have the infrastructure in place and they don't really need Nintendo. Steam is growing in size each year and basically owns the PC market. If Nintendo allowed Steam, no-one would license with them directly. They would just create Steam games and advertise that it was playable through a Nintendo console. I don't see how this wouldn't negatively affect Nintendo profits more than just paying third parties to develop for their system. It's like if Nintendo would have given up their on-line to EA except with less control and less profits.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 10, 2013, 09:14:01 PM
My thoughts: Nintendo CAN NOT Dreamcast themselves. If Nintendo prematurely ends the Wii U then they are signaling their weakness in the console market completely. The Wii U will be viewed as a failure and anything Nintendo tries to do will be viewed as a risk. It will basically KILL their console market completely.
I'd rather Nintendo not Dreamcast themselves, but the market is painting a pretty grim picture right now. The Wii U is already viewed as weak in the market by the competitors and third parties and generally most analysts rip it daily. I don't think it's makes Nintendo weak to come out with a better product that meets consumer demand. Nintendo did make the virtual boy. They moved on and now completely own the handheld market. And I say that as someone who owns a Wii U and would be a little ticked if they killed it.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 10, 2013, 09:30:10 PM
I understand the logic behind separating the two markets.
Which is why my original idea was not a hybrid system. But two systems, that are perfectly linked...and all games are available to both...this is done by creating games that can be scalable...like most PC games are. And since you are only scaling them to 2 standards it should be relatively easy.
It also means you can keep the handheld touch based which is a strong enhancement for gamers, and move the console to be the refinement and perfection of motion controls.
I think the Wii U moving away from motion was a mistake. Though, I understand Nintendo's thinking, and in the long run it might be a good decision. It means that Nintendo fans can use all their expensive Wii controllers for one more generation, and then Nintendo can pump out the next refinement in motion controls with its next console.
I think the Classic control Pro for Wii U is a perfect controller, and as such from here on out should be the standard controller Nintendo uses and should be 100% future forwards for all Nintendo systems. Nintendo should advertise this fact NOW.
Then new motion controllers should be created. The controller should be packaged as one unit will all attachments needed. Nunchuk + Wiimote motion ++ whatever it is called...all together. Nintendo should really push also with the sensor bar to do stuff that the Xbox Kinect can do. This would allow for some very good precision Motion games.
I will not restate my original post, but clarifying the distinctions of the controls for the console and handheld help prove the concept of 2 consoles. Also, it doesn't mean those two systems couldn't have exclusives when it is required for control purposes, but the goal would be to promote 3rd parties and 1st parties to build into their games compatibility for both systems and when you buy the game digital or cartridge you can play it on both systems.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 10, 2013, 09:38:38 PM
Which is why my original idea was not a hybrid system. But two systems, that are perfectly linked...and all games are available to both...this is done by creating games that can be scalable...like most PC games are. And since you are only scaling them to 2 standards it should be relatively easy.
Would you charge the handheld market $60 for the game since it cost the same to develop? Maybe cross-buy for all purchases would help minimize that. Physics would be another thing that may be difficult to scale. Certainly a better option in my opinion than a hybrid and I could see market moving towards something like that in the future. Sony I feel has somewhat tried that strategy with the Vita although not quite to the degree you are suggesting.
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I think the Classic control Pro for Wii U is a perfect controller, and as such from here on out should be the standard controller Nintendo uses and should be 100% future forwards for all Nintendo systems. Nintendo should advertise this fact NOW.
Can you take Reggie's place? I don't know if there is a vote for something like that, but I would vote for you.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 10, 2013, 09:49:49 PM
Most games don't need really big physics in there game. How many games is that a huge deal really? And no, I would not charge $60.00 a game. I think games are costed too high, and an aggressive Nintendo pursuing sales would lower console games to $39.99-49.99.
All games that have cross-console play would be priced with the higher price tag of $39.99 and prices for console or handheld that only played on those systems would be $39.99. Then digital VC games would all be cross console and be positioned at the higher price. So 5.00 NES/Portable Games 10.00 SNES 15.00 N64 20.00 Gamecube ect. Of course sales could happen as well.
Also concerning physics. Nintendo could just create tools to assist in their creation. The Nintendo created tool assets can have handheld and Console modes, and can be frequently updated as new improvements are made.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 10, 2013, 09:57:51 PM
There's a search portion on this site. Check it out sometime. Alot of threads degrades into portions of the same argument. [size=78%]http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=42455.50 (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=42455.50)[/size]
First of all, I'm not gonna search the site for your arguments on the subject, especially when you admit that "Alot of threads degrades into portions of the same argument." which to me means it could have been in any number of threads, none of which would have been related to what I was looking for. If you have a point to make that you already made somewhere else in a thread I've never seen during a conversation I wasn't apart of, then make it again or quote/link to yourself so I can read it.
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I don't see it as leveraging at all. I see it as killing off the handheld portion of the business and hoping that your console portion becomes successes.
How would it be killing off the handheld portion of the business when the Handheld portion on the business is still the handheld portion of the business? The handheld is still a portable handheld and would still be getting portable handheld games.
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I like Adrock's idea of being able having saves transfer and having the portable buy a game and having it auto download for the main console. That's a neat idea.
That should be standard for any connected system and something I think Sony already does and Nintendo was talking about with their online eShops.
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I just don't see it as innovative. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Want to play handheld games? There's a 3DS. Want to play console games, there's a Wii U. They are different because the markets for those items want different things.
Want to play handheld games? There is the successor to the 3DS. want to play console games? .... oh the Wii U is dead. refer to the handheld games instead.
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A 3DS meets the demands of the market perfectly. To shrink hardware you always pay a premium. To develop a game for a 50" 4K 3D TV (where the console market is going) you are always going to have too much power in a handheld. Parents have proven they won't spend $250 en mass to fit their children each with their own game system. You are pushing things on the handheld market they do not want. $150 for a 3DS is perfect for what the market expects. The handheld market doesn't want to pay $60 for 4K games when they were happy with their $30 games.
A Wii Uportable is the next step for a successor the the 3DS. The 3DS was basically a portable Wii/GC It might not technically be as powerful, but it will look just as good. A PS Vita today cost $250 and is probably a small step below a Wii U... basically a PS3 portable. There is no good reason as to why Nintendo couldn't have comparable portable hardware to the Wii U in 2.5 yrs time.
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And I don't know how the console market benefits either. PS4/XBO owners aren't clamoring for ports of those titles or they'd likely get them. I don't see $60 copies of Layton moving Wii U's.
We would still get the same games as before. If someone was making a game for a portable, that wouldn't need to change. The only change would be for 3rd parties that were trying to make console style game would still be able to support Nintendo, who would likely have a very high install base, and the gamer would still be able to play said game on their TV if they chose to.
Just because the handheld is capable of displaying up on the TV doesn't mean all it's games have to be geared toward the TV type of experience.
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Technology in general will get cheaper, but I don't think we are 3 years away. Processors aren't increasing at the rate they used to and we are reaching the points of economical feasibility to keep shrinking them. The Vita is certainly no home console. I do think it's funny though, one of the biggest knocks on the Wii U is it is under-powered. But we expect people to accept limited handheld power as a trade off of a hybrid system when the console market has never asked for less power?
The Wii U isn't winning any awards in design nor is it winning any races in capability. It's already designed to be low power potentially for future portable use. Wii U is under powered as a home console when sitting on a shelf inbetween the PS3 of 2006 and the PS4 of 2013. The trade off here isnt' that we are bringing you a weak ass home console that is also a portable, it is that we are bringing you a bad-ass portable that can work on your TV like a home console.
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You are solving a problem that doesn't exist. The problem is and always has been Nintendo's interactions with third parties. Can they salvage that? Yes, they can. Will they? Probably not because Japanese companies are very stubborn.
Well if they aren't gonna fix the most obvious problem (3rd parties) then they need address the symptoms (low console sales). If they seem to be succeeding hand over fist in the handheld sector, and failing miserably generation after generation in the console sector (Wii was a fluke, bottled lightning and Nintendo cannot recreate that or hold that audience) then the next best thing to do is leverage your strengths to make up for your weaknesses.
While the 4DS is moonlighting as a TV Console during those times you are at home, and you are enjoying all your 3rd party support thanks to that large install base, Nintendo just bought some time to expand upon that companion TVbox (that is integral to my idea of a "hybrid" console) with a real home console box, if they choose to go that route.
But that's just how I see it. I see no trade off of a handheld for a console when the handheld is still a handheld, and just becomes a controller for the box hooked up to your TV when at home. The box is nothing more than a Roku like box with a HDD that interfaces with the TV. I think you never fully understood my concept for what I thought the "Hybrid" should be. My idea is more like the Wii U in reverse.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 10, 2013, 10:24:42 PM
3rd parties problems do not go away with big console sales. See the Wii.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: MagicCow64 on December 10, 2013, 10:43:33 PM
I highly doubt Nintendo has a replacement home console system in the works for 1 year from now.
It is much more likely that Nintendo would pursue the hybrid portable route (in 2016) to succeed the 3DS and phase out a failing Wii U than attempt to replace the Wii U after its second full year on the market. (Nintendo would NEVER Dreamcast themselves... would they!?)
And to talk about keeping expectations low for changes that Nintendo would make... Killing a console really early with a replacement is a big change to make. I would bet on quirky and innovative before I bet on that.
Yup, as I've posited elsewhere, I believe Nintendo is haunted by the specter of Sega, and if they start releasing sorta-new consoles every two years it would be an incredibly desperate sign, one they don't need to make yet.
I'm pretty sold on the hybrid, and think this is the most likely outcome if Nintendo chooses not to release a traditional console successor. I think the latency-less streaming tech is going to be the real diamond in WiiU's rough. And like was said above, they don't need the horsepower of a PS5, probably just something a couple of times stronger than the WiiU would be perfectly fine for anything they'd want to do in-house. And more and more, they are their own best thang.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 10, 2013, 11:03:20 PM
3rd parties problems do not go away with big console sales. See the Wii.
But it's not that big of an issue in the portable sector, which the hybrid essentially is. You would be more concerned on which games 3rd parties are bringing, over if they will bring games at all.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 10, 2013, 11:12:31 PM
First of all, I'm not gonna search the site for your arguments on the subject, especially when you admit that "Alot of threads degrades into portions of the same argument." which to me means it could have been in any number of threads, none of which would have been related to what I was looking for. If you have a point to make that you already made somewhere else in a thread I've never seen during a conversation I wasn't apart of, then make it again or quote/link to yourself so I can read it.
I linked right to the page. It's just common courtesy to review discussions before trying to turn every discussion into other things that are well represented.
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How would it be killing off the handheld portion of the business when the Handheld portion on the business is still the handheld portion of the business? The handheld is still a portable handheld and would still be getting portable handheld games.
They are two different markets that want different things. Rarely have I ever seen a device that can represent two markets well. If you can think of one, let me know. At best, Nintendo really is putting themselves in a position that they get the benefit of one market by consolidating since there isn't much of a hope that a hybrid would do better than the 3DS is doing now in one of the markets.
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Want to play handheld games? There is the successor to the 3DS. want to play console games? .... oh the Wii U is dead. refer to the handheld games instead.
PS4/XBO are pretty good consoles. Don't like the Wii U you could check those out.
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A Wii Uportable is the next step for a successor the the 3DS.
Why?
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The 3DS was basically a portable Wii/GC It might not technically be as powerful, but it will look just as good. A PS Vita today cost $250 and is probably a small step below a Wii U... basically a PS3 portable. There is no good reason as to why Nintendo couldn't have comparable portable hardware to the Wii U in 2.5 yrs time.
Wow, you are really impressed with weak handheld hardware. No way any of that is true, I could see why you would think a handheld has enough power to replace consoles.
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We would still get the same games as before. If someone was making a game for a portable, that wouldn't need to change. The only change would be for 3rd parties that were trying to make console style game would still be able to support Nintendo, who would likely have a very high install base, and the gamer would still be able to play said game on their TV if they chose to.
Not convinced a hybrid would have high install base since your not meeting the needs of either market and not sure third parties would care since they have a market they do really well with on the PS4/XBO and they didn't care about the large installbase of the Wii.
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Just because the handheld is capable of displaying up on the TV doesn't mean all it's games have to be geared toward the TV type of experience.
Do you make it in-compatible with TV mode so they don't see how bad your game looks?
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The Wii U isn't winning any awards in design nor is it winning any races in capability. It's already designed to be low power potentially for future portable use. Wii U is under powered as a home console when sitting on a shelf inbetween the PS3 of 2006 and the PS4 of 2013. The trade off here isnt' that we are bringing you a weak ass home console that is also a portable, it is that we are bringing you a bad-ass portable that can work on your TV like a home console.
In other words, play out the Wii U low power for the future approach. I like it.
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Well if they aren't gonna fix the most obvious problem (3rd parties) then they need address the symptoms (low console sales). If they seem to be succeeding hand over fist in the handheld sector, and failing miserably generation after generation in the console sector (Wii was a fluke, bottled lightning and Nintendo cannot recreate that or hold that audience) then the next best thing to do is leverage your strengths to make up for your weaknesses.
Your ignoring the fact that Nintendo does leverage the same business plan in both markets already. It works in the handheld sector it doesn't in the console sector. Because the markets are looking for two different things.
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But that's just how I see it. I see no trade off of a handheld for a console when the handheld is still a handheld, and just becomes a controller for the box hooked up to your TV when at home. The box is nothing more than a Roku like box with a HDD that interfaces with the TV. I think you never fully understood my concept for what I thought the "Hybrid" should be. My idea is more like the Wii U in reverse.
I understand it. I just think Wii U tech in the controller is much more expensive than you think. And when a great handheld only costs $150, what's the point of combining markets?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: MagicCow64 on December 10, 2013, 11:33:20 PM
Smallshark:
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I understand it. I just think Wii U tech in the controller is much more expensive than you think. And when a great handheld only costs $150, what's the point of combining markets?
I think the real logic behind this kind of move is tied to the converging nature of handheld and console game design. Handhelds used to be the place for mostly 2D games and a different kind of design philosophy as a result. At this point, what's so intrinsic to being handheld about games like Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon or Kid Icarus? I'd totally play those games on a TV if they were available. Sure, Nintendo would lose the ability to spend modest to moderate sums on games like Pokemon and have them generate 10000% profit, but a Pokemon RPG with WiiU graphical fidelity and the same gameplay as X and Y would I'm sure do them just fine. The eShop is becoming the place for smaller-scale projects like Fluidity and Pushmo, which should be available on both the Wii U and 3DS even if Nintendo hasn't quite caught up to the fact.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 10, 2013, 11:46:40 PM
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I linked right to the page. It's just common courtesy to review discussions before trying to turn every discussion into other things that are well represented.
I appreciate the link, but it's what was said leading up to it that "There's a search portion on this site. Check it out sometime." as if someone is supposed to scour the site for similar discussion before entering a current conversation.
And after reading it I understand your concerns, and maybe things would be a little expensive, but if the Wii U fails, a hybrid (the the super portable/roku combo version I'm talking about, I didn't look to see how they thought a Hybrid would work) might be Nintendo's best option to buy time till the next console is ready, should they even decide to release another dedicated console.
I really don't see them shitting the bed Sega style with another system too soon, because you lose the trust of all your loyal customers to provide them with a product they can depend on for years to come. You certainly won't convince the fence sitters that this round will be different, which at best puts them right back where they are now. It's almost a suicide pact to that. A "Hybrid" as I described it would allow the Wii U to putter along (the hybrid would technically be able to play the same games) until it's natural replacement cycle is complete.
So we will have to agree to sit on different ends of the table on this one. I just see my "impossible" option to be much better than your "improbable" solution.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: sweetfeathery on December 11, 2013, 02:47:34 AM
I want to ask if anyone has any idea or can point me to any charts as to how well the Wii U has been selling overall within the last two months. I ask this because where I work we have been selling the Wii U very strong as of late, especially with the inclusion of Super Mario Bros into the console.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 11, 2013, 09:42:38 AM
In North America? We won't get any hints until middle of January with the NPDs.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 11, 2013, 11:21:52 AM
My guess would be better than usual, which wouldn't be saying much, but still far from good enough.
If 2013 was Disaster: Year of Luigi, then 2014 needs to be Recovery: Year of Change
It won't do much to change the fate of Wii U, but improving relations and expectations going forward will bring good will towards whatever is next.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Mannypon on December 11, 2013, 12:29:53 PM
Damn, there is too much to touch on in this thread and I'm too lazy to start quoting everyone lol
Basically, I'm in BlackNMild's camp with this hybrid design. I know some have a fear of weakening 1 division over the other but I think Nintendo in the home console scene is near its end. The market and industry for home consoles has dramatically changed, gone Hollywood is what I would call it, and that is just not, and probably never will be, Nintendo's scene. Nintendo is already 1 generation behind in specs and I don't see them ever matching the other 2's specs in any generation from here on out. There are many reasons for this that I've mentioned before but I'll summarize briefly. 1. Nintendo will never fund and fully utilize those high end specs. 2. The 3rd parties who do put in the effort and money for AAA releases will shun Nintendo in favor of the other 2 as their games, for one reason or another, never seem to sell on Nintendo home hardware.
A handheld with a 1080p display and specs above a WiiU is ideal in that those still developing handheld games will still be able to do so and, as BnM I think stated, those that want a TV experience type of game will still have that option. Hell, 3rd parties are nearly gone for Nintendo in the TV experience "genre" if you would call it that. Its basically Nintendo the only one doing anything major for their home console. With this hybrid, you'll get all your portable games and Nintendo would still have a venue to put out there major home releases like mainline Mario, Zelda, and Metroid games. Nintendo has spread themselves too thin between their 2 major consoles. Given they get little to none 3rd party help with the WiiU, they have to provide all the support they can for it while also doing what they can to keep the 3ds in the position its in. We complain of Nintendo's large gaps in release, well a hybrid system will let them concentrate on basically one hardware. All their developers will be able to fill in their yearly lineup a lot better when just concentrating on one platform to support.
As for Nintendo killing off the WiiU early, aka Dreamcast? I don't see that happening at all. Its ridiculous to even think of it. Nintendo could put out a system even more powerful than the PS4 next year and it'll all be for nothing. I mentioned this in another thread but Nintendo's problem now is their image and public perception. That'll always trump whatever specs they have.
I think Nintendo will pull whatever slim profits they can muster out of the WiiU and treat this generation as their practice round to iron out their development techniques with HD hardware and to streamline their handheld and home console developers into one well oiled machine (in preparation for their hybrid release in a couple of years)
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 11, 2013, 05:30:57 PM
MannyPon:
I can see that. seems logical in all areas.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Mannypon on December 11, 2013, 08:30:18 PM
Thanks Spak-Spang, my biggest issue with my reasoning is that it almost makes to much sense lol. Nintendo rarely ever does what we deem to makes sense so who really knows what they'll come up with.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Sarail on December 11, 2013, 11:28:26 PM
I, too, want to see a hybrid design console when Ninty step up to bat again in several years. Everything BnM mentioned fits my own description to a "T" about how I think the Big N need to go about their next console.
Everything I hear from my local friends, who I clearly define as "western gamers", dislike Nintendo consoles, but love everything about their handhelds. What's even more puzzling are a few statements I've heard from them as of late such as, "I want my handheld to do one thing well, and that's games."
Hmmm, games, you say? Strange as that's what their consoles do well, too. But apparently the home console space needs to do more than just games for them - which is fine, mind you. I feel like the Wii U does almost everything else outside of playing games that I want. My only request is the ability to stream content through DNLA from my PC. But seriously, it's ok without. Netflix, Hulu, Youtube, Amazon Instant, web browsing, Miiverse. That's plenty! Holy needy people, Batman.
But yeah, handheld hybrid console. Do I think it would sell to the market that has abandoned Nintendo in the console space? Possibly. Three of my local friends, who are big in Ninty's portables, told they would indeed go for a hybrid-type console. A Vita-sized controller with a TV box that streams the content via HDMI to the telly? Yes, please.
And lastly, Manny, I wholeheartedly agree on the streamlining their game development studios. I think this approach would not only give us more games overall, but even better, tighter, and more incredible experiences, too.
So, yeah. Bring all that shiz together.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: MagicCow64 on December 12, 2013, 12:41:17 AM
Another way to look at it is: What would Nintendo most like to do in 2016? Develop PS4.5 level console games and WiiU-level handheld games, or just games for a two-WiiUs-taped-together level hybrid?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 12, 2013, 02:31:01 AM
Racht, download Plex Media Server on your PC, use the Wii U browser to access it and you can stream stuff from your computer to your TV through the Wii U.
would be really nice if Nintendo would update their app selection to be more in line with dedicated smart boxes. Don't need 60 apps, but a choice from a dozen or so popular and useful ones would be nice.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BranDonk Kong on December 12, 2013, 09:11:26 AM
Microsoft has a lock on HBO GO for consoles :(
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Something
Post by: Adrock on December 12, 2013, 10:35:26 AM
My understanding of this hybrid box discussed here is that functionally it's a reverse Wii U so the chipset is in the GamePad so you can take it everywhere. Is that right? However, if what is being suggested is something closer to Vita TV, I just don't see it working. 3DS works as its own contained unit.
Glancing between screens inches from your face is far different than changing the orientation of your head to look at a TV several feet away and a controller in your hands. That can greatly affect your performance in a game designed with the DS/3DS in mind. The transition isn't the same though not all DS/3DS games would suffer this inconvenience, only the ones that use the second screen heavily rather than for cursory info.
DS was the brainchild of Hiroshi Yamauchi who saw this handheld-console collision course well before anyone else did. Handheld games were starting to catch up to console games in terms of sophistication so the idea was to justify the handheld by offering something different. That's a great idea until you start blurring the lines intentionally. A reverse Wii U isn't something Nintendo wants because they want to sell people two different systems. Whether the market still accepts and/or allows this remains to be seen, but I don't think Nintendo did themselves any favors with 3DS which discouraged screen switching (the action is almost always on the larger and 3D-enabled top screen). A handheld that can be played on a TV means they're directly competing against themselves.
Nintendo's console market is not beyond saving (and keeping it separate). I understand Wii U is struggling though I attribute that mostly to Nintendo failing to support it with their own games which is the entire reason anyone even cares about Nintendo hardware. This is improving with some major titles on the way in 2014. They're not Dreamcast-ing Wii U. Let's stop that thinking right there. Nintendo's software is far stronger and they have greater reserves and more valuable assets than Sega. Right now, Nintendo is looking at GameCube 2.0. They can ride out Wii U. It will come in last place, but still make a profit in the end. Nintendo can live with that, but it's not where they want to be. I don't see them doing anything as drastic as making hybrid systems or abandoning the console market. Their problem is that Sony and Microsoft aimed high so Nintendo appears in the middle, not a high-end console yet not a low-end Ouya micro-console. That leaves them with the choice of aiming just as high or aiming really low.
Nintendo could probably dominate the low-end market. Non-Nintendo fans aren't necessarily anti-Nintendo, they just can't justify spending $300 on a console just for Nintendo games. Get the price down to $100 to $130 and they might. This also means Nintendo is settling for second console status. Nintendo doesn't want to compete with Sony and Microsoft, but I think they know they have to because the market forces them to. There's no escaping that when all three companies offer products that can do the same thing: play games.
That's why I think a Nintendo branded Steam Machine is a better option. Consumers get Nintendo's first party titles as well as near-ubiquitous third party support. This takes the biggest asset away from Sony and Microsoft. This is also a better choice than the hybrid solution. If a hybrid is meant to take advantage of Nintendo's third party support on their handhelds, a Steam Machine trumps that due to a much more pervasive Western presence. Nintendo should leave their handheld market mostly as is. Japanese third parties seem content with the terms and it's thriving in that region.
In any case, Nintendo should continue expanding their own development houses. They need a stronger Western presence. It has to be more than Retro Studios releasing a game every three years and Nintendo contracting Monster Games and Next Level Games to work on existing Nintendo IPs. Nintendo's software is their greatest asset. They can continue justifying releasing their own hardware with a steady and consistent stream of excellent software.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: shingi_70 on December 12, 2013, 11:48:42 AM
Isn't there a high chance there won't be another Nintendo console?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: NWR_insanolord on December 12, 2013, 12:20:38 PM
Isn't there a high chance there won't be another Nintendo console?
I don't think so. I'm fairly certain they'll give it at least one more go before abandoning that market.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on December 12, 2013, 01:04:57 PM
I think Nintendo would only quit consoles if they were financially forced to do so. Like, if they don't stop manufacturing these white elephants right this second they're going to go bankrupt.
When I think of the hybrid I really am thinking about what makes sense from a consumer perspective. If I buy music I can listen to the same MP3 on my computer at home or on my MP3 player on the go. In the past I could use a discman or walkman and do the same thing. I can buy a DVD and watch it at home or watch it on a plane using a laptop or a portable DVD player. In these other forms of entertainment there is one medium and you can have different players that accommodate the situation. But with games it was always two players, two game libraries. I have console games at home and handheld games on the go and they're different games that are completely incompatible with each other.
I really just want to play Pokémon X on my TV 99% of the time. There is no reason they game wouldn't work on a console, particularly now that Nintendo has a touchscreen on their console. In the past the handheld specs were noticeably toned down, but we had almost two years where the 3DS co-existed with the Wii and the games for the two platforms are so similar on a technical level that it seems arbitrary for them to be on different formats. And it isn't like Nintendo even wants to make cutting edge console games. They would probably be more comfortable making just handheld games but I want to play their games on the TV so why not let me? Might as well just have one format and let the customer decide what best suits his lifestyle. What's funny is that the Wii U find of tries this with the off-TV functionality. They're trying to be accommodating to people's lifestyles but don't quite have it right.
Gamer: If I can't use the TV why not just play a handheld? Nintendo: Well it doesn't have the same games. Gamer: But, why does it need to be like that particularly when your Wii U Mario games all have a 3DS equivalent and your Wii U games don't make any effort to push the hardware anyway? Nintendo: ...
Pretty much the only game ideas that don't seem to work on handhelds are local multiplayer and games that use peripheral controllers, but is that enough to justify an entirely separate platform? Can't you just have some titles or game modes that only work in "console mode"? Just like how something like Boktai or Kirby's Tilt 'n Tumble would only work in "handheld mode". It's funny that the Wii's big gimmick really demonstrated a console-only function yet the Wii U seems to only offer a stay at home version of the handheld experience and they wonder why they can't sell it?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: NWR_insanolord on December 12, 2013, 01:09:31 PM
What it really comes down to is that, since Nintendo makes every effort to take a profit on hardware sales, they'd much rather be able to sell you two pieces of hardware than just one. I'd only see them going with the hybrid model if the console market stops being profitable for them, and even with how poorly the Wii U has done so far I don't doubt it will make Nintendo money in the long term.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 12, 2013, 01:57:06 PM
And if Nintendo is so focused on profits especially of control of profits in their hardware, do we really think they would release a "Steam Machine" where they make none of the profits from 3rd parties (who would just bypass Nintendo altogether) without some sort of deal in place to take a share of all software bought through the Nintendo branded machine? Which may be in Steamworks favor, as I seriously doubt they will move anywhere near as many units of Hardware as Nintendo would. That would be instant and affordable market penetration for Stream, it would be MAJOR HYPE for both companies, but severely reduced profits for Nintendo outside of first party software (not that they making much these days anyway). Also I haven't looked, but would Nintendo play ball with the stats required for a Steam machine? This would be a major deal for Nintendo to relinquish control their software platform to a 3rd party, and EA would sure boycott platforms eternally, unless machine was also an Origin machine too.
On the other topic of my Hybrid idea, if Nintendo doesn't go that route and decides to give it one more go around in both the console and handheld markets, then they better make damn sure well the next console is planned out along side the next handheld, and that the handheld can 100% double as the main or secondary controller for their Wii U2 or wherever they are doing. We will need feature and button parity between the two. This doesn't mean the next console has to have a screen on the controller or all the capabilities of a dedicated handheld, but the next handheld better have all the same buttons, triggers, joysticks, cameras, motion sensors, mics, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc etc, as the systems main controller so that it can be used in it's place as a companion piece to the console when at home.
Otherwise I think my Hybrid handheld is probably the route to take until Nintendo can buy a clue and figure out what they want to do next in the home console space.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 12, 2013, 05:12:27 PM
And if Nintendo is so focused on profits especially of control of profits in their hardware, do we really think they would release a "Steam Machine" where they make none of the profits from 3rd parties (who would just bypass Nintendo altogether) without some sort of deal in place to take a share of all software bought through the Nintendo branded machine?
I've addressed most of this already in the opening post, but I'll summarize here (I know that post was ridic long, but I recommend reading it for the sake of discussion).
First, no, I don't think Nintendo would do this since it forces them to relinquish some control of their hardware (though as stated, they would retain all control of their own software which is imperative and the only way this could work). The purpose of this thread was to suggest ways Nintendo could improve things for their next home console. I think this is the best and easiest way. It allows them to keep their console and handheld separate while fixing their one major discrepancy in the console space: third party support. Nintendo doesn't need much tweaking on the handheld end (the menus could stand to be faster). I say leave it alone for the most part.
Second, Nintendo already doesn't make much profit from third parties since third parties aren't supporting Wii U anyway. The idea is to make a Nintendo console more attractive to consumers resulting in more Nintendo software sold which is where Nintendo make most of their profits anyway. Essentially, they would be sacrificing licensing fees from third parties in hopes of releasing a more attractive platform and in turn the chance to sell more of their software to a much larger user base.
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Which may be in Steamworks favor, as I seriously doubt they will move anywhere near as many units of Hardware as Nintendo would. That would be instant and affordable market penetration for Stream, it would be MAJOR HYPE for both companies, but severely reduced profits for Nintendo outside of first party software (not that they making much these days anyway).
I don't know about severely reduced profits. They would be trading third party licensing fees for the potential of even stronger first party sales.
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Also I haven't looked, but would Nintendo play ball with the stats required for a Steam machine? This would be a major deal for Nintendo to relinquish control their software platform to a 3rd party, and EA would sure boycott platforms eternally, unless machine was also an Origin machine too.
The cheapest Steam Machine I saw announced is $499 by iBuyPower; Digital Storm announced one for $1469 (and possibly a fraction of your soul). I suggested getting the hardware down to $399 even if Nintendo takes a similar loss as Sony with PS4. The idea, again, is to sell even more software which may or may not work. Risk acknowledged. My understanding of Steam Machines is that Valve sets the specs and vendors manufacture and distribute the console. I'm suggesting Nintendo and Valve set the specs together and locked the hardware down. Nintendo is giving up most third party licensing (which is like the entire point of Steam) to Valve in favor of control of the hardware (and obviously, Nintendo's own first party software). Nintendo doesn't want their console freely modified and upgraded. Still, Nintendo and Valve would both have something to gain here. Nintendo releases a far more attractive and competitive console (conveniently remaining in their bubble) while Steam has even greater reach than before.
As for EA, it would be a necessary loss and one that wouldn't really hurt Nintendo any more than it is now considering EA has been a cock to Nintendo for over a year now. And the more popular Steam becomes (especially backed by Nintendo) the worse Origin looks.
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On the other topic of my Hybrid idea, if Nintendo doesn't go that route and decides to give it one more go around in both the console and handheld markets, then they better make damn sure well the next console is planned out along side the next handheld, and that the handheld can 100% double as the main or secondary controller for their Wii U2 or wherever they are doing. We will need feature and button parity between the two. This doesn't mean the next console has to have a screen on the controller or all the capabilities of a dedicated handheld, but the next handheld better have all the same buttons, triggers, joysticks, cameras, motion sensors, mics, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc etc, as the systems main controller so that it can be used in it's place as a companion piece to the console when at home.
Deep And Immediate Integration With 3DS' Successor This should be done day one. We're already kind of seeing this with Nintendo combining their console and handheld teams and Miiverse being brought over to 3DS. They need to "talk" to each other. I would even go as far as having "4DS" function as a controller. That means it requires near parity with the new console's controller.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on December 12, 2013, 06:07:00 PM
What it really comes down to is that, since Nintendo makes every effort to take a profit on hardware sales, they'd much rather be able to sell you two pieces of hardware than just one. I'd only see them going with the hybrid model if the console market stops being profitable for them, and even with how poorly the Wii U has done so far I don't doubt it will make Nintendo money in the long term.
This is as good of an example of short-sighted Nintendo penny-pinching that you'll ever find. This is what they'll do until someone else beats them to the hybrid idea and eats into their handheld market. What I realize is that we can discuss potential Wii U successors all we want but if Nintendo makes a profit with the Wii U they likely won't improve a thing. They need to suffer some losses or at least very narrowly dodge a bullet and be spooked by it. Oh, and they have to not come to the conclusion that they should stop making consoles. The decision that benefits us the best would require a certain amount of self-awareness and humility that would be out-of-character for Nintendo. If they could make the right decision for next gen then they probably wouldn't have flubbed this one.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 12, 2013, 10:22:09 PM
I've addressed most of this already in the opening post, but I'll summarize here (I know that post was ridic long, but I recommend reading it for the sake of discussion).
I've read it. And my thoughts were not specifically addressed in the OP, which was Nintendo getting a share of all sales done from the Nintendo machine as a way to supplement 3rd party licensing and Steam getting that big install bump from Nintendo pushing hardware. I was basically branching out my thoughts on the whole steam machine and how it could even work.
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The purpose of this thread was to suggest ways Nintendo could improve things for their next home console. I think this is the best and easiest way. It allows them to keep their console and handheld separate while fixing their one major discrepancy in the console space: third party support. Nintendo doesn't need much tweaking on the handheld end (the menus could stand to be faster). I say leave it alone for the most part.
There is a lot the handheld could be doing that it's not. Lots of non-gaming applications that could be incorporated and the system needs a little more "ooomph" when it comes to speed/power. It's slow.
other stuff I had already addressed. so moving on.
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The cheapest Steam Machine I saw announced is $499 by iBuyPower; Digital Storm announced one for $1469 (and possibly a fraction of your soul). I suggested getting the hardware down to $399 even if Nintendo takes a similar loss as Sony with PS4. The idea, again, is to sell even more software which may or may not work. Risk acknowledged. My understanding of Steam Machines is that Valve sets the specs and vendors manufacture and distribute the console. I'm suggesting Nintendo and Valve set the specs together and locked the hardware down. Nintendo is giving up most third party licensing (which is like the entire point of Steam) to Valve in favor of control of the hardware (and obviously, Nintendo's own first party software). Nintendo doesn't want their console freely modified and upgraded. Still, Nintendo and Valve would both have something to gain here. Nintendo releases a far more attractive and competitive console (conveniently remaining in their bubble) while Steam has even greater reach than before.
Yeah, but what are the specs for a low-end Steam machine that can play current games at slightly better than acceptable (1080p, 30+fps), and how does that compare to what the Wii U is today?
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As for EA, it would be a necessary loss and one that wouldn't really hurt Nintendo any more than it is now considering EA has been a cock to Nintendo for over a year now. And the more popular Steam becomes (especially backed by Nintendo) the worse Origin looks.
True, but if they are relinquishing 3rd party fees in favor of Steamworks, they might be able to squeeze Origin in there too as an alternative service. I'm not even sure if Valve would care.
Deep And Immediate Integration With 3DS' Successor This should be done day one. We're already kind of seeing this with Nintendo combining their console and handheld teams and Miiverse being brought over to 3DS. They need to "talk" to each other. I would even go as far as having "4DS" function as a controller. That means it requires near parity with the new console's controller.
I saw it, was just expressing my own thoughts on the matter since I was in a groove at the moment. As I said somewhere in this thread, I agree with a lot of the things in the OP. a lot of that needs to happen.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 13, 2013, 09:33:38 AM
There is a lot the handheld could be doing that it's not. Lots of non-gaming applications that could be incorporated and the system needs a little more "ooomph" when it comes to speed/power. It's slow.
I was mainly referring to 3DS as a gaming platform and to that end, I believe it does that exceptionally well. 3DS is a pretty well-rounded gaming device and third parties seem content so I expect a successor to follow suit. Besides its slowness which I mentioned, there aren't any areas that need much tweaking. And 3DS already does a lot more than it probably needs it to. I'm not sure more non-gaming applications are necessary especially for its audience though I wouldn't be surprised at all see it happen on 3DS and its successor.
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Yeah, but what are the specs for a low-end Steam machine that can play current games at slightly better than acceptable (1080p, 30+fps), and how does that compare to what the Wii U is today?
I was referring to a low end machine in 2017 when I expect a Wii U successor to launch so it would be quite a bit more powerful.
As I mentioned, the lowest end Steam Machine I read about is from iBuyPower at $500 which is said to run Steam titles in 1080p and 60 frames per second. It includes Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, and a 500 GB hard drive. That's on par with PS4/One. It also has a multi-core AMD CPU and the AMD GPU is a Radeon R9 270. I don't know how that compares to PS4/One though I, admittedly, didn't really look into it. No Steam Machine vendor is selling at a loss (how would they make money?). Anything running on SteamOS comes with the major caveat of only running games available on Linux rather than Windows, reducing the number of titles of available. In four years, that is bound to improve.
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True, but if they are relinquishing 3rd party fees in favor of Steamworks, they might be able to squeeze Origin in there too as an alternative service. I'm not even sure if Valve would care.
Possibly. However, my suggestion was that Nintendo and Valve build the new eshop and improve Nintendo's online services together. Trying to also work with EA complicates that further. Given the choice, I'd rather Nintendo work with Valve. Their platform is stronger. And if the rumors are true, EA made some ridic demands. Unless EA would be willing to adopt a more collaborative attitude, forget it and negotiate friendlier terms with Valve. They would also be in it for the money, but they have a far better reputation than EA.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 13, 2013, 02:09:48 PM
I guess if EA really wanted in without making any apologies, they could just allow their games on Steam as I suppose a few of them may still do from time to time. How is Origin doing BTW? I really only care in hopes for the next burnout style racing game.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Enner on December 14, 2013, 03:13:03 AM
How is Origin doing BTW? I really only care in hopes for the next burnout style racing game.
Well enough for Electronic Arts to stick with it. Probably helps that they have the Battlefield series locked down on it.
I've used Origin ever since EA transitioned to it from their old download management program. I didn't have any major problems with it from the start and the service has worked fine with the handful of EA games I own on it. My only (small) complaint is that it's another, different program to keep track of.
At least it's not Ubi Soft's Uplay. Ugh.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ceric on December 14, 2013, 01:02:49 PM
Yeah Origin's better than uPlay by a lot.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 15, 2013, 08:18:42 PM
You know what would help out the Wii U immensly? cross-platform online play. I imagine third parties would love to go this route, but the platform holders do not want it.
Imagine if on the Wii U SplinterCell, Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed etc, could play online with PC gamers.
That would solve the problem of being seen as a viable online audience for consumers.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Mannypon on December 15, 2013, 10:12:15 PM
I can see why MS and Sony might be hesitant on that option but I wonder how come this hasn't been done with PC games. It'll help the WiiU as you said and it'll only just add to the PC audience. There will always be the argument of the PC gamers owning those playing on the WiiU but I think that typically only applys to professional gamers and not those who simply game online for fun.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: tendoboy1984 on December 16, 2013, 01:21:20 AM
I don't get it... You people want a hybrid handheld that connects to the TV through a console box. Isn't that what the Wii U already is, just in reverse?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Mannypon on December 16, 2013, 01:59:04 AM
I don't get it... You people want a hybrid handheld that connects to the TV through a console box. Isn't that what the Wii U already is, just in reverse?
In a nutshell, yes, but its about the affect it would have of taking that approach that brings about benefits. A hybrid system will let Nintendo concentrate on supporting a single console as apposed to spreading themselves thing with 2. They'll save money on R&D, and producing 2 systems. Allowing them to concentrate on a single console, coupled with the vast amount of developers they have in house, they'll easy be able to fill out a release schedule without the help of 3rd parties.
I'm only speaking for myself here but I think the home console market has left Nintendo, or Nintendo has refused to change to it, however you want to see it. I don't think Nintendo will ever be spec to spec with the other 2 in any generation here on forward. I've stated my reasons for believing so, if you care to read it just check a few of my posts in this thread. I think it'll be a lost cause to try and compete as a stand alone home console for Nintendo.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ceric on December 16, 2013, 09:35:34 AM
Ironically the easiest comparison would be that we Want the console to be a Vita Box and the Handheld to be the PS4.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 16, 2013, 09:58:46 AM
A hybrid system will let Nintendo concentrate on supporting a single console as apposed to spreading themselves thing with 2.
This is where i feel the hybrid argument falls apart. Game development is highly profitable or should be highly profitable. Nintendo could have added development staff at any time, made more games and more money. They didnt add them because they dont want to flood the market with their games. They feel it waters down their brand. Nintendo never has wanted to be schedule filler. I dont know how cutting revenue producing opportunities will lead to more revenue.
Handheld games are 3-4 times less resource intensive. You're likely to have fewer games on one hybrid console than the 3DS has right now. Notwithstanding it would probably bring fewer risks as Nintendo has indicated 750,000 copies sold is the 1080p magic profit # whereas 250,000 is the 3DS magic profit #. The handheld market in general is much less risky, which is why I don't see them trying to consolidate and take more risk to get a market they are struggling with now.
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They'll save money on R&D, and producing 2 systems. Allowing them to concentrate on a single console, coupled with the vast amount of developers they have in house, they'll easy be able to fill out a release schedule without the help of 3rd parties.
Again, Nintendo has historically made lots of money on systems. R&D is revenue producing and 2 systems has been a boon to Nintendo in the past. 1 financial failure means to leave the market? A 1080p console will cause some third parties that support the 3DS to not support the hybrid. I still don't see how the key third parties (EA ActivisionUbi, etc) will suddenly feel the need to support a hybrid. That's always been the issue and it will continue to plague them.
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I'm only speaking for myself here but I think the home console market has left Nintendo, or Nintendo has refused to change to it, however you want to see it. I don't think Nintendo will ever be spec to spec with the other 2 in any generation here on forward.
I get that line of thinking. I think the computing power isn't quite there to do what you want. Lets say for instance that Nintendo came out with a hybrid and it was successful. Its a short term solution. Theyll do well for one generation and then what will happen? Sonyand Microsoft will use the blueprint laid by Nintendo and come with their own hybrids. Based on past history, we can assume they come with better hardware and better policies to align with third parties. How do you see that ending if the PS5 XB2 were your competition in the hybrid market?
To Ian about other media being potable and home based: You have to realize that those mediums havent been pushing processing power. They never spec up and they never were very resource intensive in the first place. As someone who edits with 1080p video, i grab as much power as i can get. A laptop can edit but it edits slower. Its just the reality of dealing with great graphics. I don't see the consumer benefit as I feel by paying a premium for shrinking the tech. Should Nintendo make a connector for the Wii U that plays 3Ds games? Absolutely. The Game boy player on the GameCube got me into handheld gaming and obviously the Wii U has enough power to do that.
I just think the benefits from shrinking aren't there. Lets say you have a hybrid for $200 . You probably could build a comparable home console for $100 and a decent handheld for $100. So you'll pay for both anyway in a hybrid. Notwithstanding a family of 4 owning 4 hybrids vs. 4 handhelds; the price discrepancy gets ridiculous.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 16, 2013, 04:09:11 PM
A hybrid system will let Nintendo concentrate on supporting a single console as apposed to spreading themselves thing with 2.
This is where i feel the hybrid argument falls apart. Game development is highly profitable or should be highly profitable. Nintendo could have added development staff at any time, made more games and more money. They didnt add them because they dont want to flood the market with their games. They feel it waters down their brand. Nintendo never has wanted to be schedule filler. I dont know how cutting revenue producing opportunities will lead to more revenue.
Your argument makes no sense to me. How is streamlining all dev teams onto one development model where the Hybrid idea begins to fall apart? Nintendo hasn't added any staff for many reasons and one of those reasons are likely that it becomes cost prohibitive to have that many people working on a game that only expects so much in return. They also could have bought many studios to make games, but they can't enslave the labor to stay, so they may just end up buying names.
Truth is that Nintendo needs a steady stream of games and no one in the console space is either capable or willing to help fill in all those gaps for them. So if you took their handheld development and their console development and let them continue to create the exact same games they would have on their respective hardware, but release it all for 1 hardware, then all of a sudden we don't have a software drought anymore. Funny how that works.....
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Handheld games are 3-4 times less resource intensive. You're likely to have fewer games on one hybrid console than the 3DS has right now.
Huh? less resource intensive = less games...? I'm not following you here either.
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Notwithstanding it would probably bring fewer risks as Nintendo has indicated 750,000 copies sold is the 1080p magic profit # whereas 250,000 is the 3DS magic profit #. The handheld market in general is much less risky, which is why I don't see them trying to consolidate and take more risk to get a market they are struggling with now.
There is obviously a market for both types of games, and no one is arguing that there should only be 1 type of game developed. The problem is that for Nintendo, at the moment and in the current market, there is only room for 1 type of Hardware, and it's not the home console. The Hybrid idea (I proposed, that most here seem to agree with) lets the Handheld still be a handheld, it just also allows it to act as a home console when at home. Yeah, maybe all games won't be 1080p when displayed on the TV, but they aren't right now either. Yeah, maybe all games won't be suitable for TV play... well, they aren't right now either. This is about bringing both experiences into one connected hardware experience, not turning the handheld into the home console. There is still room for Nintendo to release a dedicated home console that would replace the "TVbox" portion of the hybrid when/if the time is right, then the "TVbox" portion of the Hybrid can be moved to another TV in another room. This would be about Nintendo actually expanding into an emerging market by using the strengths of their current market.
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They'll save money on R&D, and producing 2 systems. Allowing them to concentrate on a single console, coupled with the vast amount of developers they have in house, they'll easy be able to fill out a release schedule without the help of 3rd parties.
Again, Nintendo has historically made lots of money on systems. R&D is revenue producing and 2 systems has been a boon to Nintendo in the past. 1 financial failure means to leave the market? A 1080p console will cause some third parties that support the 3DS to not support the hybrid. I still don't see how the key third parties (EA ActivisionUbi, etc) will suddenly feel the need to support a hybrid. That's always been the issue and it will continue to plague them.
Historically.... in the past... Let's talk about the present. No one is asking Nintendo to make a permanent exit from the console game. The Hybrid idea is actually more of a Trojan Horse to the livingroom game than it is an exit from the market. And just because the system is capable of 1080p does not mean that all games have to support it. I don't even want to get into how many games on PS360 didn't even natively support 720 even though the systems are capable of 1080p.
and if anything, knowing Nintendo's marketshare for the handheld sector, more 3rd parties than are currently supporting the hardware will likely join in knowing that they can make the games they want to make and still reach an audience that match or surpass the PS4/XBO audience. So not only will we technically be able to get the Laytons and the quirky indie style handheld games that we are used to, but we will also get the real versions of the Assassins Creeds and Call of Duties and not the gimed handheld versions. We will also get the definitive versions of the Monster Hunters where you can pick up where you left off at home, becuase it's on the same system. no transfers needed. and maybe, just maybe we will FINALLY get that Pokekmon MMO that Nintendo should have had in eternal beta stage waiting for the moment when it is needed to make some waves.
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I'm only speaking for myself here but I think the home console market has left Nintendo, or Nintendo has refused to change to it, however you want to see it. I don't think Nintendo will ever be spec to spec with the other 2 in any generation here on forward.
I get that line of thinking. I think the computing power isn't quite there to do what you want. Lets say for instance that Nintendo came out with a hybrid and it was successful. Its a short term solution. Theyll do well for one generation and then what will happen? Sonyand Microsoft will use the blueprint laid by Nintendo and come with their own hybrids. Based on past history, we can assume they come with better hardware and better policies to align with third parties. How do you see that ending if the PS5 XB2 were your competition in the hybrid market?
It is a short term solution that just may solve their longterm problem. The hybrid is only a stopgap if Nintendo needs it to be. But ultimately what it does is finally bring connectivity to the level Nintendo should have figured by this gen yet they only teased with the release of the Wii U. After Nintendo irons the kinks out of connectivity once and for all with a Hybrid, they can actually release the updated console to replace the "TVbox" (that seems to be the part you keep ignoring) and go back on a 2 front attack. The Hybrid basically allows Nintendo to keep supporting the Wii U through supporting the Hybrid. Same games work on both machines, only technically you no longer need the Wii U if you have the Hybrid. The Wii U can be phased out naturally over it's normal lifespan while the Hybrid takes over keeping the Wii U software development alive. It's a successor to the 3DS and a rebranding/rerelease of the Wii U all in one.
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To Ian about other media being potable and home based: You have to realize that those mediums havent been pushing processing power. They never spec up and they never were very resource intensive in the first place. As someone who edits with 1080p video, i grab as much power as i can get. A laptop can edit but it edits slower. Its just the reality of dealing with great graphics. I don't see the consumer benefit as I feel by paying a premium for shrinking the tech.
The Wii U is already a low powered small chip design for a reason. And I'm sure shrinking it down to portable size in a few years is not impossible. Might be expensive, but if it's successful, that won't matter in the long run. AMD/ATi might actually be excited about a Nintendo hardware again too, pushing limits on design and tech, unlike the last few systems....
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Should Nintendo make a connector for the Wii U that plays 3Ds games? Absolutely. The Game boy player on the GameCube got me into handheld gaming and obviously the Wii U has enough power to do that.
Who's to say that it wouldn't work in opposite? Get those dozens of millions of handheld gamers to start playing games on the TV? could get lots of handheld only gamers back into TV gaming too.
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I just think the benefits from shrinking aren't there. Lets say you have a hybrid for $200 . You probably could build a comparable home console for $100 and a decent handheld for $100. So you'll pay for both anyway in a hybrid. Notwithstanding a family of 4 owning 4 hybrids vs. 4 handhelds; the price discrepancy gets ridiculous.
The price isn't really the issue if the demand is there. A PS4 ($399), a Vita ($250) & 2 more DS4's ($60x2) gets pretty pricey too, and only allows you connectivity on the 1 TV and only 1 person with a handheld screen. (=$770) 2 Hybrids ($250/$299x2) & 2 wiimotes ($40x2 - assuming you don't own any) allows you connectivity on 2 TV's and 2 players have their own personal screen. (=$580/$680)
I could see the appeal for a $300(/$350) handheld that also came with a Roku like box for the TV. Parents would love for each kid to be able to watch Netflix in their own room or just be able to shuffle around the smart devices to other unconnected TV's in the house. I think there is a market to cater to in there. Nintendo running at the same market as Sony/MS but from a different angle. I think it makes too much sense to not consider. Not that I think Nintendo would actually do it, but they seem to be flirting with the idea in the slow roundabout way Nintendo like to do things.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 16, 2013, 10:43:38 PM
This is where i feel the hybrid argument falls apart. Game development is highly profitable or should be highly profitable. Nintendo could have added development staff at any time, made more games and more money. They didnt add them because they dont want to flood the market with their games. They feel it waters down their brand. Nintendo never has wanted to be schedule filler. I dont know how cutting revenue producing opportunities will lead to more revenue.
Your argument makes no sense to me. How is streamlining all dev teams onto one development model where the Hybrid idea begins to fall apart? Nintendo hasn't added any staff for many reasons and one of those reasons are likely that it becomes cost prohibitive to have that many people working on a game that only expects so much in return. They also could have bought many studios to make games, but they can't enslave the labor to stay, so they may just end up buying names.
Nintendo hasn't added staff because it's cost prohibitive but they'll add staff under a hybrid model? Please explain why the return model changes under a hybrid model. There is no reason to extrapolate great sales for a hybrid console when no console exists now unless you count Vita TV. And anyways Nintendo thought the Wii U was going to sell like hotcakes, so it's not like they were planning for imminent failure. If I'm a third party I'm waiting for a Nintendo console (even a hybrid) to show it's successful before I allocate resources to it. That's just good business, not personal. It's costs about $28M to delevop a console title. A 1080P hybird would cost this much. You need 750,000 in sales to justify it. The 3DS does not require this level of sales to be profitable.
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Truth is that Nintendo needs a steady stream of games and no one in the console space is either capable or willing to help fill in all those gaps for them. So if you took their handheld development and their console development and let them continue to create the exact same games they would have on their respective hardware, but release it all for 1 hardware, then all of a sudden we don't have a software drought anymore. Funny how that works.....
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Handheld games are 3-4 times less resource intensive. You're likely to have fewer games on one hybrid console than the 3DS has right now.
Huh? less resource intensive = less games...? I'm not following you here either.
Obviously I meant more resource intensive. Posting via my phone is pure torture and there is not a good way for me to proof read myself. I guess this is where we have to agree to disagree. I believe that you can take the 3DS games and divide by 4 and that's your best case scenario in hybrid support. I think it will be much less than that as third parties leave due to the higher development costs and lower market share but nothing can be proven at this point.
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Notwithstanding it would probably bring fewer risks as Nintendo has indicated 750,000 copies sold is the 1080p magic profit # whereas 250,000 is the 3DS magic profit #. The handheld market in general is much less risky, which is why I don't see them trying to consolidate and take more risk to get a market they are struggling with now.
There is obviously a market for both types of games, and no one is arguing that there should only be 1 type of game developed. The problem is that for Nintendo, at the moment and in the current market, there is only room for 1 type of Hardware, and it's not the home console. The Hybrid idea (I proposed, that most here seem to agree with) lets the Handheld still be a handheld, it just also allows it to act as a home console when at home. Yeah, maybe all games won't be 1080p when displayed on the TV, but they aren't right now either. Yeah, maybe all games won't be suitable for TV play... well, they aren't right now either. This is about bringing both experiences into one connected hardware experience, not turning the handheld into the home console. There is still room for Nintendo to release a dedicated home console that would replace the "TVbox" portion of the hybrid when/if the time is right, then the "TVbox" portion of the Hybrid can be moved to another TV in another room. This would be about Nintendo actually expanding into an emerging market by using the strengths of their current market.
Both types of games? I'm a gamer. I want good games, hardware format is immaterial. Inferior games for one system tend to perform poorly. If games are smaller, less graphical they tend to perform poorly. I'm not saying that handheld games are necessarily poorer than console games, but if there was the market for a $28M Layton game it would be made for the PS3. There's not. And are you inferring that your handheld would not have 1080P visuals? I thought this was an amazing handheld? That's really the only way that one would not be able to tell the difference on the handheld. You also make the assumption that handheld mainly gamers will not turn their handheld into a TV experience at some point and be disappointed with the outcome. We can argue gameplay/graphics all night, but the reality is the mass consumer will look at a poor graphical title and write it off as a worse game.
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Again, Nintendo has historically made lots of money on systems. R&D is revenue producing and 2 systems has been a boon to Nintendo in the past. 1 financial failure means to leave the market? A 1080p console will cause some third parties that support the 3DS to not support the hybrid. I still don't see how the key third parties (EA ActivisionUbi, etc) will suddenly feel the need to support a hybrid. That's always been the issue and it will continue to plague them.
Historically.... in the past... Let's talk about the present. No one is asking Nintendo to make a permanent exit from the console game. The Hybrid idea is actually more of a Trojan Horse to the livingroom game than it is an exit from the market. And just because the system is capable of 1080p does not mean that all games have to support it. I don't even want to get into how many games on PS360 didn't even natively support 720 even though the systems are capable of 1080p.
PS360 games were panned for not supporting 720P. It's just reality of the market video games appeal to. Now that PS4/XBO are likely to have most games support 1080P, I think trying to compete in their market without that level of graphical power will lead to failure and consumers will be able to tell the difference. Maybe a handheld capable of 1080P where in reality most games were not would have worked last gen, I just don't see that as a true competitor going forward.
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and if anything, knowing Nintendo's marketshare for the handheld sector, more 3rd parties than are currently supporting the hardware will likely join in knowing that they can make the games they want to make and still reach an audience that match or surpass the PS4/XBO audience. So not only will we technically be able to get the Laytons and the quirky indie style handheld games that we are used to, but we will also get the real versions of the Assassins Creeds and Call of Duties and not the gimed handheld versions. We will also get the definitive versions of the Monster Hunters where you can pick up where you left off at home, becuase it's on the same system. no transfers needed. and maybe, just maybe we will FINALLY get that Pokekmon MMO that Nintendo should have had in eternal beta stage waiting for the moment when it is needed to make some waves.
So Nintendo makes an extremely risky business decision and third parties flock to Nintendo because they love them? The reality I see is that third parties favor mobile phones and tablets over the 3DS. If Nintendo were to make a business decision risking the handheld domination those third parties would be happy developing in the mobile/tablet arena until Nintendo proves themselves. I'm not EA, I just disagree with your optimism surrounding Nintendo consoles.
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I'm only speaking for myself here but I think the home console market has left Nintendo, or Nintendo has refused to change to it, however you want to see it. I don't think Nintendo will ever be spec to spec with the other 2 in any generation here on forward.
Nintendo has tried to avoid competition with gimmicks. At best, a hybrid delays them competing. The beauty of competition is competitors always catch on to why other competitors are doing better. Sony/Microsoft will copy and without a plan to get and hold-on to 3rd party support, Nintendo will lose. They have to compete. They can't choose to not compete and be successful long term as a hardware manufacturer.
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It is a short term solution that just may solve their longterm problem. The hybrid is only a stopgap if Nintendo needs it to be. But ultimately what it does is finally bring connectivity to the level Nintendo should have figured by this gen yet they only teased with the release of the Wii U. After Nintendo irons the kinks out of connectivity once and for all with a Hybrid, they can actually release the updated console to replace the "TVbox" (that seems to be the part you keep ignoring) and go back on a 2 front attack. The Hybrid basically allows Nintendo to keep supporting the Wii U through supporting the Hybrid. Same games work on both machines, only technically you no longer need the Wii U if you have the Hybrid. The Wii U can be phased out naturally over it's normal lifespan while the Hybrid takes over keeping the Wii U software development alive. It's a successor to the 3DS and a rebranding/rerelease of the Wii U all in one.
I'm not ignoring the TV box. Maybe long term as power increases we are heading to a future where a TV box and handheld do the same thing. But we've played this out before. Maybe it's not one generation, maybe it's two or three. Whatever Nintendo does that turns out successful, Sony and Microsoft will do. History has shown Nintendo shies from competition and Sony/Microsoft succeed. Without a comprehensive plan to work with third parties Nintendo eventually loses this game. You're ignoring the real issue and pretending that Nintendo can do something hardwarewise that won't be copied.
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To Ian about other media being potable and home based: You have to realize that those mediums havent been pushing processing power. They never spec up and they never were very resource intensive in the first place. As someone who edits with 1080p video, i grab as much power as i can get. A laptop can edit but it edits slower. Its just the reality of dealing with great graphics. I don't see the consumer benefit as I feel by paying a premium for shrinking the tech.
The Wii U is already a low powered small chip design for a reason. And I'm sure shrinking it down to portable size in a few years is not impossible. Might be expensive, but if it's successful, that won't matter in the long run. AMD/ATi might actually be excited about a Nintendo hardware again too, pushing limits on design and tech, unlike the last few systems....
The Wii U is a complete failure. Are we still using that as a business reason to do anything?
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Should Nintendo make a connector for the Wii U that plays 3Ds games? Absolutely. The Game boy player on the GameCube got me into handheld gaming and obviously the Wii U has enough power to do that.
Who's to say that it wouldn't work in opposite? Get those dozens of millions of handheld gamers to start playing games on the TV? could get lots of handheld only gamers back into TV gaming too.
The TV is center of control in the household fair or unfair. I think Nintendo dominates the handheld industry mainly because they control the kid market who each require a handheld and are less likely to have a console unless their parents allow it. Most parents I know have Sony/Microsoft consoles because they like to dabble in console games but get their kids Nintendo consoles because they trust Nintendo games for their kids. Maybe that's an unfair characteristic because I'm 30+ and enjoy Nintendo console games, but I don't think there is an untapped handheld market that hasn't had experience with Nintendo games waiting to pick up a Nintendo console.
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The price isn't really the issue if the demand is there. A PS4 ($399), a Vita ($250) & 2 more DS4's ($60x2) gets pretty pricey too, and only allows you connectivity on the 1 TV and only 1 person with a handheld screen. (=$770) 2 Hybrids ($250/$299x2) & 2 wiimotes ($40x2 - assuming you don't own any) allows you connectivity on 2 TV's and 2 players have their own personal screen. (=$580/$680)
I could see the appeal for a $300(/$350) handheld that also came with a Roku like box for the TV. Parents would love for each kid to be able to watch Netflix in their own room or just be able to shuffle around the smart devices to other unconnected TV's in the house. I think there is a market to cater to in there. Nintendo running at the same market as Sony/MS but from a different angle. I think it makes too much sense to not consider. Not that I think Nintendo would actually do it, but they seem to be flirting with the idea in the slow roundabout way Nintendo like to do things.
Agree and disagree. If Nintendo was able to hit the console market with exactly it's demands, it could charge a premium over the PS4/XBO. Clearly they aren't at this point. As far as the handheld market, I still believe it's dominated by children. As a parent, no way I'm buying a $300/350 handheld for each kid. Tablets just do more and if you are pushing up that much $ I might as well buy an Ipad for each kid (notwithstanding there are cheaper Android tablets than $300/350). I mean certainly $2.99-9.99 apps will make up the difference compared to $50 games. Parents see handhelds as mainly appeasers rather than true entertainment devices.[/quote]
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 17, 2013, 12:32:01 AM
I can't point counter point since I'm on a tablet, but I can't be the only one to think you aren't actually reading all of what I typed and/or are just not fully grasping the concept.
I never said anything about adding staff for the Hybrid, just consolidating staff to one platform while continuing business as usual. Same games as before, same budgets as before, just all on the same hardware now. Handheld style games are still handheld focused, ware games are still ware focused, console games still console focused. They do not have to target any specific resolution or level of graphical complexity unless that's the game calls for. Just because the system supports a high resolution doesn't mean the budget must increase abs graphics muddy change for ultra detailed resolution. The games will keep whatever focus they were designed have.That doesn't have change. Not hard to understand.
Lesser graphical style games sit by the graphically intense ones all time, no reason that has to change now.
3rd parties wouldn't have to flock because they already support Nintendo's handheld. The hybrid would be maybe a small step above natural progression NIntendo's handheld anyway. The Wii U in portable form is not a large jump past a Vita visually, so why are hung up on the hybrid (2yrs out) having some sort of unattainable level of power, I'm not really sure.
And part of the problem with where Nintendo is at today had to do with them being so secretive because they were afraid of being copied. It's gonna happen regardless, so it's not always who did it first, but who did it better. Nintendo is better off doing it first and doing it right the first time. Not pursuing a strategy that makes sense because the competition might copy it is probably the dumbest reason to not do it, and all the more reason to do it first and patent the **** out of the idea so that everyone that do it too will have to do some roundabout **** just to do something similar.
"The Wii U is a complete failure. Are we still using that as a business reason to do anything?"
Ummm, yeah, we are salvaging the R&D from Wii U to create successor to the 3DS that will also help slowly phase out the failing Wii U during its natural lifetime while also extending its life through a hybrid portable. That is what we were talking about right?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 17, 2013, 12:54:51 AM
I can't point counter point since I'm on a tablet, but I can't be the only one to think you aren't actually reading all of what I typed and/or are just not fully grasping the concept.
Maybe I'm not very clear with my arguments then. I thought I had countered many of the things you keep regurgitating. I'm too tired with this discussion to try to be more clear so I'll just touch on the new topics you've brought up.
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The hybrid would be maybe a small step above natural progression NIntendo's handheld anyway. The Wii U in portable form is not a large jump past a Vita visually, so why are hung up on the hybrid (2yrs out) having some sort of unattainable level of power, I'm not really sure.
I thought this was an amazing handheld? Your handheld to compete with the PS4 is Vita level power? I wouldn't buy it, but maybe the market thinks differently.
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Nintendo is better off doing it first and doing it right the first time. Not pursuing a strategy that makes sense because the competition might copy it is probably the dumbest reason to not do it, and all the more reason to do it first and patent the **** out of the idea so that everyone that do it too will have to do some roundabout **** just to do something similar.
Doing it first is good for short term profits, but you have to keep doing it better than the competition to have long term success. I have no confidence in Nintendo to be able to do hardware better than Sony/Microsoft long term.
The problem Nintendo has and will have until they deal with it is a lack of third party support. In my mind a hybrid doesn't nothing to turn that around (for reasons I've already gone over). My point wasn't that they shouldn't do it because they will be copied. My point was if it's actually successful (which I've listed many points why I don't think it will be) they still need to deal with the third party issue because Sony/Microsoft will come with better hardware and better third party relations leading to the same situation they are in now. In my mind, a hybrid is an attempt to work around the third party issue and it'll come back regardless. I've already gone over power not being competitive (Vita vs. PS4?) and third party software on 3DS as not being enough to compete in the console market as well as other issues which you've conveniently glossed over so you can call me dumb.
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"The Wii U is a complete failure. Are we still using that as a business reason to do anything?"
Ummm, yeah, we are salvaging the R&D from Wii U to create successor to the 3DS that will also help slowly phase out the failing Wii U during its natural lifetime while also extending its life through a hybrid portable. That is what we were talking about right?
Now my mind is just blown. You want a Wii U portable to replace the 3DS and Wii U? Okay, I know your gung-ho with your idea, but I'm just wondering how many other people that think the hybrid is a good idea think Wii U portable is a good idea. Because I think that is a terrible idea to compete against the PS4/5 whatever.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Mannypon on December 17, 2013, 01:07:43 AM
Loving the discussion this thread has brought. Looking at the debate you both are having, I'd have to say that I think there is probably some misunderstanding on either/or both of your accounts. SmallSharkbigbite, I think where you're going wrong is in pitting this hybrid system as a competitor to the PS4 and XBone. The Hybrid system will be in a funny place where you can't really compare it to the other home consoles. My interpretation of BlackNmild's idea, and correct me if I'm wrong BnM, is that in its essence, its basically a portable which just happens to be powerful enough to be able to provide a home console experience when at home and when need be. The bulk of its success will come from its handheld titles as the 3DS is now but it'll allow Nintendo a venue to release its few and far between home titles without the need of having an actual home console to develop and support. It'll be more powerful than the WiiU but nowhere near a PS4/XBone. Given we don't believe Nintendo will ever release a home console as powerful as their current gen counterparts, it stands to reason that they shouldn't bother with a home console for the time being as it'll never compete directly.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 17, 2013, 01:24:56 AM
SmallSharkbigbite, I think where you're going wrong is in pitting this hybrid system as a competitor to the PS4 and XBone. The Hybrid system will be in a funny place where you can't really compare it to the other home consoles. My interpretation of BlackNmild's idea, and correct me if I'm wrong BnM, is that in its essence, its basically a portable which just happens to be powerful enough to be able to provide a home console experience when at home and when need be.
I do live in the US where home consoles are king and I generally prefer the home console setting so I'd be personally disappointed if Nintendo went "handheld only". I've also indicated that I think cost in the handheld market is particularly price sensitive due to competition with tablets. Like I've said, agree to disagree, but I don't think a handheld can be successful if it has too much tech and enters the tablet range even though I've focused the majority of my arguments on the home console space. I think Nintendo thinks the same way or they wouldn't have come out with a cheaper 2DS. And if it's just a powerful handheld, what are we talking about hybrid for? Vita-tv like functionality isn't much of a hybrid in my opinion.
The Wii U is quite a bit bigger than the Wii because the GPU is much stronger and they don't make a profit on that at $350. I just don't see a few years away from getting more power than that in a handheld at $200. And if they could, I don't see the point of a hybrid because they could come out with a more powerful home console for $100-150 which would price it at a point to make a hybrid unnecessary.
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The bulk of its success will come from its handheld titles as the 3DS is now but it'll allow Nintendo a venue to release its few and far between home titles without the need of having an actual home console to develop and support. It'll be more powerful than the WiiU but nowhere near a PS4/XBone. Given we don't believe Nintendo will ever release a home console as powerful as their current gen counterparts, it stands to reason that they shouldn't bother with a home console for the time being as it'll never compete directly.
I think Nintendo needs to compete if they have a future in consoles and all these workarounds to competition just delay the inevitable retraction of Nintendo as a hardware company. Steambox was brought up, but why doesn't Nintendo just go open-source (license free) if they just want a box for their own games?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Mannypon on December 17, 2013, 01:36:09 AM
I may be a bit of an extremist with my line of thinking but I think this approach will work because I believe Nintendo is dead in the home console scene and I really don't think they'll ever be a major factor in it anymore. The industry and the home console market has gone in a direction that is basically the complete opposite of the niche Nintendo has put themselves in. I've stated this before but Nintendo's biggest problems are that they are Nintendo. For some reason or another, 3rd party games have never really sold well on their platforms. Putting out equal hardware to the other two will not fix that. Everyone, consumers and publishers, have their preconceived notions of what and who Nintendo are. Even with better hardware, consumers will still think Nintendo is inferior to Sony and MS's systems and publishers will still think their games won't sell. I don't really see how Nintendo can change any of that.
It is what it is and I think Nintendo is trying to find their slice of the overall pie now. They currently are trying to look for a particular segment of the market they can lay claim too and build from there as apposed to trying to compete with the other 2 major players in the market they are dominating.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 17, 2013, 01:45:15 AM
It is what it is and I think Nintendo is trying to find their slice of the overall pie now. They currently are trying to look for a particular segment of the market they can lay claim too and build from there as apposed to trying to compete with the other 2 major players in the market they are dominating.
I disagree in the fact that I don't think Nintendo has to be dead in the home console market. But that topic has been beat to death as we are doing to this one.
I don't think there is ever a safe market sector. If Nintendo finds a profitable market segment someone will attack it even if it's not Sony/Microsoft. It's hard to stay at the top over a period of decades and it requires serious innovation. There is no conservative button in business that guarantees success. Tablets and smartphones will continue to get more powerful, cheaper, have better connectivity with TVs, and have a better selection of games. If not that, Steambox is new to home consoles, how long until a handheld Steambox? There's always someone trying to knock you off your block.
Nintendo has had a few decades of really good handheld market share. But that doesn't guarantee them a couple of more decades. Especially as technology gets cheaper, it's going to be less risky for new players to compete and try to steal their "pie" as you put it. You look at the Dow 500 from 1950 and look at it now and like 80% of the companies are gone. They were all dominant big players in their respective industries that didn't adapt to the changing markets. If Nintendo takes their ball home in the home console market, I'm less confident they'll be able to deal with a significant challenge in the handheld market and it will eventually come.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 17, 2013, 11:45:55 AM
It is a short term solution that just may solve their longterm problem. The hybrid is only a stopgap if Nintendo needs it to be. But ultimately what it does is finally bring connectivity to the level Nintendo should have figured by this gen yet they only teased with the release of the Wii U. After Nintendo irons the kinks out of connectivity once and for all with a Hybrid, they can actually release the updated console to replace the "TVbox" (that seems to be the part you keep ignoring) and go back on a 2 front attack.
This is the thing about the hybrid idea I can't see happening the most. The second Nintendo does this there's no going back to making a dedicated console. They would have released a handheld that can connect to a TV. Why would consumers accept a separate home-only machine from Nintendo ever again?
I understand why people want this because, as a consumer, I also want this. I don't want to buy two devices to get my Nintendo fix. I do so because I have to under Nintendo's split hardware model. From a business perspective, a hybrid doesn't help Nintendo do what it really wants to do. They want to sell two separate Mario Karts, for example. Sure, they can release two Mario Karts on the same hardware, but a single machine gets really crowded really quickly with all of those sequels, especially since many Nintendo games are evergreen titles. Instead, they want to sell consumers two different games on two different pieces of hardware. That's why they like making a profit on hardware.
The hybrid idea is blatant consumerism which I'm not denigrating. It's a completely reasonable thing to want, but let's not pretend that it is more than it is. It flat-out benefits Nintendo fans entirely. Of course, keeping handheld and console separate if they essentially do the same thing is worse for consumers. Nintendo has moved away from their own message of unique styles of play. It's okay to release a portable Mario Kart or Super Smash Bros. that are basically handheld console games, but they need to be surrounded by games that can't be done anywhere else. Play on the strengths of each platform. Wii and DS did that well. Wii U and 3DS shifted that focus. I feel like that's the reason the idea of a hybrid even came up.
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The Hybrid basically allows Nintendo to keep supporting the Wii U through supporting the Hybrid. Same games work on both machines, only technically you no longer need the Wii U if you have the Hybrid. The Wii U can be phased out naturally over it's normal lifespan while the Hybrid takes over keeping the Wii U software development alive. It's a successor to the 3DS and a rebranding/rerelease of the Wii U all in one.
I am still having troubling with some of the details of the handheld component of your hybrid idea.
1. Does it have one screen or two? What separates 3DS and Wii U is that the screens are tethered in the former. That can produce different kinds of games that play differently. 2. If the hybrid is meant to allow Nintendo to keep supporting Wii U, wouldn't it need a disc drive? Is it meant to be fully digital?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 17, 2013, 12:47:33 PM
Loving the discussion this thread has brought. Looking at the debate you both are having, I'd have to say that I think there is probably some misunderstanding on either/or both of your accounts. SmallSharkbigbite, I think where you're going wrong is in pitting this hybrid system as a competitor to the PS4 and XBone. The Hybrid system will be in a funny place where you can't really compare it to the other home consoles. My interpretation of BlackNmild's idea, and correct me if I'm wrong BnM, is that in its essence, its basically a portable which just happens to be powerful enough to be able to provide a home console experience when at home and when need be. The bulk of its success will come from its handheld titles as the 3DS is now but it'll allow Nintendo a venue to release its few and far between home titles without the need of having an actual home console to develop and support. It'll be more powerful than the WiiU but nowhere near a PS4/XBone. Given we don't believe Nintendo will ever release a home console as powerful as their current gen counterparts, it stands to reason that they shouldn't bother with a home console for the time being as it'll never compete directly.
Exactly. This approach follows up the success of every prior portable and allows Nintendo to phase out the Wii U hardware naturally while still making games for it for many years to come. I'm trying to make the idea as practical and based in realistic expectations as possible. Something that Nintendo could actually attempt if they tried and not some impossible pipe dream of miracle engineering at magical prices.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BranDonk Kong on December 17, 2013, 12:53:20 PM
Bear in mind they could make such a console as powerful as the Wii U right now (sans Blu Ray drive).
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on December 17, 2013, 01:01:45 PM
I understand why people want this because, as a consumer, I also want this. I don't want to buy two devices to get my Nintendo fix. I do so because I have to under Nintendo's split hardware model. From a business perspective, a hybrid doesn't help Nintendo do what it really wants to do. They want to sell two separate Mario Karts, for example. Sure, they can release two Mario Karts on the same hardware, but a single machine gets really crowded really quickly with all of those sequels, especially since many Nintendo games are evergreen titles. Instead, they want to sell consumers two different games on two different pieces of hardware. That's why they like making a profit on hardware.
I don't think what Nintendo wants is reasonable. Nintendo, or any company, would WANT to sell me an empty box for $10,000 but they can't so they don't. Nintendo obviously wanted everyone to buy the Wii U but it isn't the sort of product the consumer wants. I just don't think that selling us two systems is something the market will accept in the longrun. To me the hybrid isn't so much a personal desire but where I legitimately think is the future of dedicated videogame hardware. The hardware improvement will be less and less obvious to the consumer which will hurt the marketability of a console-only model. If from the perspective of the consumer there is no practical difference between the handheld and the console the handheld will win. Part of why the Wii U is bombing is because it's most high profile games have 3DS equivalents and the market is content with the handheld versions.
I think if Nintendo doesn't do it and gets too hung up on having two systems that the rest of the industry will beat them to the hybrid market and then Nintendo is stuck with TWO products no one wants.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 17, 2013, 01:13:10 PM
It was reasonable when DS and Wii were doing very different things. I'm not opposed to a hybrid machine. In fact, I'm in favor of it so long as they can make it work without compromising the integrity of what a handheld and console individually provide (it's also cheaper for me). However, I also think it's possible for Nintendo to succeed with both.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 17, 2013, 01:21:10 PM
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The Wii U is quite a bit bigger than the Wii because the GPU is much stronger and they don't make a profit on that at $350. I just don't see a few years away from getting more power than that in a handheld at $200. And if they could, I don't see the point of a hybrid because they could come out with a more powerful home console for $100-150 which would price it at a point to make a hybrid unnecessary.
Nintendo's GPU isn't all that, and I think without the game pad the system would have been much cheaper, like $249.99 at launch with the bundled game and profit built in from the start. A cheaper console also does nothing for them if no one is making games for it. The whole point of the hybrid is to draw on the success of the handheld market Nintendo is dominating and push them to the TV where Nintendo is losing its audience.
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I don't think there is ever a safe market sector. If Nintendo finds a profitable market segment someone will attack it even if it's not Sony/Microsoft. It's hard to stay at the top over a period of decades and it requires serious innovation. There is no conservative button in business that guarantees success. Tablets and smartphones will continue to get more powerful, cheaper, have better connectivity with TVs, and have a better selection of games. If not that, Steambox is new to home consoles, how long until a handheld Steambox? There's always someone trying to knock you off your block.
Nintendo has had a few decades of really good handheld market share. But that doesn't guarantee them a couple of more decades. Especially as technology gets cheaper, it's going to be less risky for new players to compete and try to steal their "pie" as you put it.
So why not beat that segment to the finish line before it they eventually get there? Why ignore it and let them have it? The current angle of attack is not working so best come at it from a different one.
On the other side of the argument you are staying that Nintendo should either stay the course and continue to fail or bow out all together and go third party.
I think the sideways approach of a handheld hybrid is a much safer and realistic option. TV companion boxes are getting more and more popular as they include apps and an ever increasing selection of games, lots with wiimote style controllers to navigate and play. It's as if they are letting Nintendo know that they missed a HUGE opportunity with the Wii by not turning it into an app box that plays games of all kinds. This Hybrid idea gives them a second chance at that missed opportunity, one that the Wii U is still currently missing, a large void that's being filled with AppleTV's, Roku's and other such boxes.
MS is trying to replace the cable box, Sony is trying to be your smart Blu-ray player, Nintendo should go for the companion box market, as they nearly crafted it to begin with.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 17, 2013, 01:32:57 PM
The whole point of the hybrid is to draw on the success of the handheld market Nintendo is dominating and push them to the TV where Nintendo is losing its audience.
Again, this is a consumerism device. It's not pushing the handheld people back to the TV. It's just a way for Nintendo fans to have access to all of Nintendo's games with only one machine.
I created this thread as a means to discuss how Nintendo can improve their next console. The hybrid doesn't really do that. It makes their handhelds playable on a TV which isn't the same thing.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 17, 2013, 01:47:22 PM
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This is the thing about the hybrid idea I can't see happening the most. The second Nintendo does this there's no going back to making a dedicated console. They would have released a handheld that can connect to a TV. Why would consumers accept a separate home-only machine from Nintendo ever again?
If the hybrid work out, Nintendo doesn't have to..., but if they have the tech, the gimmick and game ideas to produce another console, it won't be possible on the Hybrid and will actually work with it. Maybe Nintendo comes back with the virtual boy 2/Nintendo On instead.They can take their time and produce something truly innovative again. Come at that occulous rift with Nintendo games to back the hardware. They have options, the hybrid keeps the Nintendo in your living room and on the TV, iso new hardware geared at those areas will still get consideration from the consumer.
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I am still having troubling with some of the details of the handheld component of your hybrid idea.
1. Does it have one screen or two? What separates 3DS and Wii U is that the screens are tethered in the former. That can produce different kinds of games that play differently. 2. If the hybrid is meant to allow Nintendo to keep supporting Wii U, wouldn't it need a disc drive? Is it meant to be fully digital?
1. I'm picturing it with one screen, and you use it with your TV for the second screen, but those are detail that could change.
2. I imagined with flashcards & digital purchases. A large HDD in your TVbox acts as the "fridge" for your digital library so you can swag what you want to with, based on what will fit your portable storage, without having redownload, or own multiple SD cards.
I haven't refined all the details in my head, just the concept of the hybrid and why it could be what Nintendo needs.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: broodwars on December 17, 2013, 02:01:43 PM
From a pure hardware & firmware perspective, this is what I would ensure the Wii U's successor had:
1. The UI needs to be fast - This is a real sticking point with me on the Wii U, given that it's a console allegedly "more powerful" than the PS3 or 360's, yet its UI is painfully slow to switch between Apps or settings. It's so abysmally tedious to navigate that it's actually a large part of why I don't use the console. This issue was made laughably more obvious after I got my PS4, whose UI has problems of its own but it's ridiculously fast to navigate and switch between tasks on the fly. Whatever the Wii U's successor is needs to have a ludicrous amount of RAM so it can have similar capabilities. Naturally, that RAM increase would benefit games as well.
2. The controller needs to be standard - The Wii was a fluke. People don't generally buy consoles for their controllers. They buy them for the games. The GamePad is an albatross around the Wii U's neck, keeping Nintendo from dropping the price while simultaneously banking on a feature that can be and has been replicated on other devices. And yeah, I've never cared for it as a controller, either. A nice refinement on the Pro Controller would work just fine on the next console. Gimmicky hardware B.S. for the sake of being gimmicky is part of what made the Wii U the failure it is and drove developers away.
3. Achievement/Trophy System - I get that many of you either don't care or actively dislike achievements/trophies. That's fine (and I understand why you feel that way), but you can't deny that such systems are popular on other consoles and it's not like Nintendo hasn't dabbled in such things before with games like Xenoblade. Implementing an achievement system in with something like Miiverse would really help foster that feeling of community on the next console.
4. Technological Parity - If Nintendo insists on competing in a console market that includes high-end PCs; the PS4; and the Xbone, Nintendo's next console needs to have technological parity with their competition. I understand the arguments people have for why to not do so ("driving up the cost of games", etc.), but the greater the technological divide between the consoles, the less chance there is that 3rd parties will develop cross-platform ports. Even the GameCube, as poorly as it sold, got cross-platform 3rd party ports because it was technologically in line with the other 2 platforms. Going with 2005 tech didn't make the Wii U a hit OR a profitable failure like the GameCube, and we've all seen what its 3rd party support looks like. Nintendo needs to swallow their pride and join the rest of the industry with their next console.
5. Social Network Integration - This is one of those things that I honestly don't give a **** about in my console gaming experience, but whether I like it or not people seem to be eating that stuff up on the PS4 and Xbone right now. Miiverse is a nice step in that direction, but Miiverse is limited to Nintendo's own hardware and a website that no one uses. Meanwhile, I can play a PS4 game, snap a picture, and post it to Twitter in seconds (with a snarky quip) where people actually do see it. No one knows what the next big Social Media network will be since they change all the time, but whatever Nintendo's next console is needs to support it.
Just a few things there. I'm split on whether or not a console/handheld combined device is a good idea, mainly because a device powerful enough to be a modern home console would have **** battery life as a handheld, and what works very well as a console controller doesn't really work as a handheld controller. By the time Nintendo's next console releases, it will probably have to be a combination device, but I just don't know what that would look like.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on December 17, 2013, 02:20:03 PM
It was reasonable when DS and Wii were doing very different things. I'm not opposed to a hybrid machine. In fact, I'm in favor of it so long as they can make it work without compromising the integrity of what a handheld and console individually provide (it's also cheaper for me). However, I also think it's possible for Nintendo to succeed with both.
I'll agree that it's possible for Nintendo to succeed with both. Well maybe not NINTENDO specifically but SOME company could do it. I think Nintendo could have released a successful console this gen. It isn't an impossible situation for Nintendo, though it was certainly more possible before they went with the Wii U. Nintendo can succeed if they pull their heads out of their asses. But to be realistic they won't do it. The hybrid seems plausible without a massive overhaul on Nintendo's part.
I do have some serious doubts on Nintendo's console future though because I think that both replacing the Wii U ASAP or sticking with it for the long run carry huge risks. Sega and Atari didn't survive a console bomb. No one ever has so can Nintendo change that?
If I was in charge I would be working on getting a replacement out with PS4/XB1 equivalent hardware out by 2014 if possible (likely have to settle for 2015) but I don't know if that would work. Could I get third parties to make ports for it in enough time? Could I get first party games ready on time? I would also expand the dev teams as they're clearly not up to the task of getting HD games out in a decent timeframe. But again that's something that will take time to pay off on and I need the fruits of that later right now. How do I keep this quiet long enough to not discourage Wii U sales like Sega did with the Saturn? But I figure if we instead just wait it out that the Wii U will start costing us money and that too many years of irrelevancy will destroy any chance of a new console catching on at a later time. The Wii U limping along is bad publicity. Don't want people to associate Nintendo consoles with failure.
The one thing I can think of that might save it: CONSOLE POKEMON. Get a proper console Pokémon game out for the launch of the "Nintendo Revolution" (awesome name; might as well use it) and it might just be enough of a killer app to save the whole thing.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Enner on December 17, 2013, 03:01:54 PM
The one thing I can think of that might save it: CONSOLE POKEMON. Get a proper console Pokémon game out for the launch of the "Nintendo Revolution" (awesome name; might as well use it) and it might just be enough of a killer app to save the whole thing.
I question the thinking that a mainline/nearly-mainline Pokemon game on a Nintendo home console will be a miracle salve. Though it was a middling game and effort, Pokemon Colosseum demonstrated to me that the Pokemon battle system does not hold up as a big screen experience. Pokemon X looks better and moves faster, but the battles can still be a bit slow. I'd much rather a console Pokemon adventure be an entirely different thing.
Then again, maybe a traditional Pokemon RPG will work on a home console if Nintendo makes it not ****.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 17, 2013, 03:11:36 PM
The whole point of the hybrid is to draw on the success of the handheld market Nintendo is dominating and push them to the TV where Nintendo is losing its audience.
Again, this is a consumerism device. It's not pushing the handheld people back to the TV. It's just a way for Nintendo fans to have access to all of Nintendo's games with only one machine.
I created this thread as a means to discuss how Nintendo can improve their next console. The hybrid doesn't really do that. It makes their handhelds playable on a TV which isn't the same thing.
It also addresses the the swarms of people who are buying smart companion boxes for their TV's. There is a lot of things Nintendo could do with the idea, but they need to change their angle of attack because the Brute Force through your front door approach that Sony & MS are campaigning obviously isn't the route Nintendo wants to take. So perhaps the Trojan Horse approach would work better.
I'm curious to how the Wii U would have worked out had the controller actually been a (semi-)portable, had the system worked in reverse. and if the UI wasn't so slow from the start. I wonder if that would have captured peoples attentions and not led to the confusion of "what is it? is it an add on? so it's a tablet that's connected only to the Wii...?" nonsense that killed a lot of hype for the system before it was even released.
The one thing I can think of that might save it: CONSOLE POKEMON. Get a proper console Pokémon game out for the launch of the "Nintendo Revolution" (awesome name; might as well use it) and it might just be enough of a killer app to save the whole thing.
I question the thinking that a mainline/nearly-mainline Pokemon game on a Nintendo home console will be a miracle salve. Though it was a middling game and effort, Pokemon Colosseum demonstrated to me that the Pokemon battle system does not hold up as a big screen experience. Pokemon X looks better and moves faster, but the battles can still be a bit slow. I'd much rather a console Pokemon adventure be an entirely different thing.
Then again, maybe a traditional Pokemon RPG will work on a home console if Nintendo makes it not ****.
I think if they want to bring a proper Pokemon game to a single player per TV experience, it needs to be an MMO style game that combines Colosseum, Pokemon Snap and Warcraft style gameplay. An MMO that allows you to grind to some extent on the handheld version. Hell, even bring a little of the card game into play and take the game offline, and/or Skylanders style collectibles that you can activate into your game. Could be the biggest most profitable thing Nintendo ever did... if only they didn't always feel the need to have done it first or not at all.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on December 17, 2013, 04:59:13 PM
The one thing I can think of that might save it: CONSOLE POKEMON. Get a proper console Pokémon game out for the launch of the "Nintendo Revolution" (awesome name; might as well use it) and it might just be enough of a killer app to save the whole thing.
I question the thinking that a mainline/nearly-mainline Pokemon game on a Nintendo home console will be a miracle salve. Though it was a middling game and effort, Pokemon Colosseum demonstrated to me that the Pokemon battle system does not hold up as a big screen experience. Pokemon X looks better and moves faster, but the battles can still be a bit slow. I'd much rather a console Pokemon adventure be an entirely different thing.
Then again, maybe a traditional Pokemon RPG will work on a home console if Nintendo makes it not ****.
Using Pokémon Colosseum to suggest that Pokémon won't work on a console is like shitting on a cone and complaining that no one will buy your chocolate ice cream. As you stated, the game sucked. In regards to anything involving sales that is the easiest way to explain a failure. The world is working properly when lousy products fail.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Khushrenada on December 17, 2013, 05:03:07 PM
A hybrid will not happen as that shrinks Nintendo's market. With one device, they have to now compete against all consoles and handhelds and PC and phones/tablets. Sony has console and handheld. Microsoft has Xbox and PC. Nintendo is just to have one area?
It might seem smart in a way because then all games they make will appear on one device instead of having to split up their games development so that some appear on a handheld and some appear on a console. Maybe Nintendo could support such a system just by themselves only. But what happens long term? Is that going to bring over the big third party games people keep hoping will show up on a Nintendo console? Probably not as I doubt such a device would be able to be as powerful as whatever the competition decides to step up to next. So then, people would still have to get another system for such experiences. Thus, why should they buy this odd system? For the Nintendo games only?
How many people own a 3DS and a Wii U? How many own a 3DS and not a Wii U? How many own a Wii U and not a 3DS? Let's be crazy and say the numbers are 10%, 85% and 5%. If Nintendo goes to a hybrid console, then does that mean the 5% of Wii U owners joins the 85% of 3DS owners when they merge them together and they will all buy this hybrid? What happens to the 10% extra sales they had in making two seperate pieces of hardware? Both had potential for more growth and to increase in sales. Now that is gone because they will only buy 1 piece of hardware. If Nintendo had went hybrid after the Gamecube, would they have made the money they made with 1 piece of hardware like they did with 2?
That's why a hybrid won't happen.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 17, 2013, 05:55:36 PM
I do have some serious doubts on Nintendo's console future though because I think that both replacing the Wii U ASAP or sticking with it for the long run carry huge risks. Sega and Atari didn't survive a console bomb. No one ever has so can Nintendo change that?
I'm baffled that anyone still makes comparisons to Sega and Atari. Nintendo isn't even remotely in the same position as those two. 3DS is devouring everything in its path. While Wii U is struggling, it's a good sign that sales dramatically increase every time Nintendo manages to releases new software. The barometer for Wii U being a bomb is whether Nintendo can make money on it. I suppose time will tell on that one; it's just not time to throw in the towel just yet. Nintendo isn't content with a console with mediocre sales even if it turns a profit, but it's reason enough to fight another day.
It also addresses the the swarms of people who are buying smart companion boxes for their TV's.
Does it? So many TVs these days come with Smart Apps. For those who want the companion boxes, do they even want video games? I'm not sure that's the same audience.
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There is a lot of things Nintendo could do with the idea, but they need to change their angle of attack because the Brute Force through your front door approach that Sony & MS are campaigning obviously isn't the route Nintendo wants to take. So perhaps the Trojan Horse approach would work better.
I definitely agree that Nintendo needs to change their approach which is why I back the Steam idea. I think it comes with the least amount of compromises. What Nintendo really wants is an ecosystem to control their own software and they really want to continue selling consumers two of them. There are only so many Nintendo fans. Nintendo knows they need third party games in order to expand the reach of their hardware, but they're going to have to give something up, make some compromises. I don't think cutting an entire product line is really what they want or what's best.
A hybrid will not happen as that shrinks Nintendo's market. With one device, they have to now compete against all consoles and handhelds and PC and phones/tablets. Sony has console and handheld. Microsoft has Xbox and PC. Nintendo is just to have one area?
A hybrid ultimately means Nintendo is surrendering the console market; they wouldn't be competing in that space. Such a device would be seen primarily as the successor to 3DS that also happens to connect to a TV. It would likely do well against micro-consoles like Ouya, OnLive, or even Vita TV.
The biggest fallout of Nintendo going the hybrid route is that it would probably make Nintendo itself smaller. People seem to think that consolidating the hardware would result in more games on a single machine. Yes and no. I think it's likely that Nintendo would lay off a bunch of people due to redundancy then contract out when needed. They would only need to support one platform. Instead of a handheld Mario and a console Mario, there's just Mario. There would be more games on the hybrid, but fewer games total.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 17, 2013, 07:15:45 PM
Creating a hybrid that carries with it support for Wii U games doesn't necessarily mean Nintendo would be stepping out of the console game, it would just extend the amount of time they have to recoup the cost associated with the Wii U. They could still come to market with a Nintendo7 VR machine or whatever the next innovation is in Nintendo's console playbook. They tend to revisit ideas once the technology catches up and becomes cheap enough to use.
Reversing how the Wii U works as the successor to the 3DS is probably the only way to attempt to make a healthy profit off the low powered Wii U by giving reason to the low powered nature of the system.
I do also see the benefits of a Steam Machine, but realistically giving up direct contact& licensing fees with 3rd parties seems like a last resort, but.... they could also do both things. I would love for Nintendo adapt some of those system wide features & sales policies if they didn't just adopt Steam as their 3rd party service.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: MagicCow64 on December 17, 2013, 08:54:11 PM
It needs to be highlighted that the hybrid (in my conception at least) would be coming out a year before the PS5/XBTWO. What would Nintendo rather do at that point: release a tech-parity console, release another underpowered home console at PS4 levels of power to more derision, or release a PS4.2 level hybrid? I think the hybrid would be more appealing; you'd have to upgrade handheld teams to program at that level, but you dodge the arms race with super-duper HD development, and plus your handheld devs were going to have to upgrade anyway. And like has been said, this would give Nintendo room to come back to the home console scene with something extraordinary. The Gamecube might as well not have existed for most Wii owners, we could see something similarly slate-cleaning.
Something's gotta change. As a competitor in the Dewrito contemporary US-oriented console gaming world, Nintendo is kaput as anything other than a niche player.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: sweetfeathery on December 18, 2013, 12:16:44 AM
A hybrid will not happen as that shrinks Nintendo's market. With one device, they have to now compete against all consoles and handhelds and PC and phones/tablets. Sony has console and handheld. Microsoft has Xbox and PC. Nintendo is just to have one area?
How would offering one device that gives consumers the best of both worlds shrink Nintendo's market? There is a difference between choosing to shrink and re sizing your company to reflect on what you can actually deliver to the public. If we look back on recent history, the big problem Nintendo faced with the Wii in 2009 was that they needed to start developing titles for the 3DS and the Wii U, which forced them to start cutting support on their current home console. It was really fun waiting on one last big Wii title and seeing games like Xenoblade not even be brought to the states without consumer outcry. With the Wii U, they launched the console with only a handful games because they were not ready for the HD market, and of course, they were also making games for the 3DS! The Wii U is now starting to appeal to consumers with titles like Super Mario 3D World and Pikmin, but these should have been launch titles! Because Nintendo has stretched themselves too thin the console is one year behind on releases.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 18, 2013, 08:43:00 AM
Creating a hybrid that carries with it support for Wii U games doesn't necessarily mean Nintendo would be stepping out of the console game, it would just extend the amount of time they have to recoup the cost associated with the Wii U.
Even if the intention is to leave the door open for a new home console, I'm not sure the market will accept that.
And I don't grasp this idea that Nintendo would be extending the the amount of time they have to recoup the cost associated with Wii U. Nintendo would be launching a brand new system. All that research and development, manufacturing etc. just adds to the amount Nintendo would have to recoup.
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Reversing how the Wii U works as the successor to the 3DS is probably the only way to attempt to make a healthy profit off the low powered Wii U by giving reason to the low powered nature of the system.
I don't think that's how to make a profit off Wii U let alone the only way. Nintendo's software has always been their primary source of revenue. At this point, it's probably not even sold at a loss anymore. They just need to continue releasing games.
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I do also see the benefits of a Steam Machine, but realistically giving up direct contact& licensing fees with 3rd parties seems like a last resort, but.... they could also do both things. I would love for Nintendo adapt some of those system wide features & sales policies if they didn't just adopt Steam as their 3rd party service.
If Nintendo is opposed to money hats and sucker deals with third parties that Sony and Microsoft occasional engage in, Steam is the logical course if Nintendo wants to guarantee third party support in the console space for the life of the hardware. I'd rather see Nintendo get third party support without Steam, but I don't know if that's possible. Nintendo can make the calls, have the meetings, negotiate, and come to terms on a variety of things (e.g. specs). The problem is that third parties could still choose to refuse support or worse, drop it later if they consider sales unsatisfactory. Steam isn't a perfect solution, but it's certainly the path of least resistance.
There are ways for Nintendo to improve their standing without going that route. If we start with a console that third parties want to support on paper (e.g. Nintendo kept them involved, considered/implemented some of their suggestions etc.), they could always undercut Sony and Microsoft. Start with lowering licensing fees below what the others are asking. On top of that, Nintendo could set MSRP for games at $50 then cut licensing fees even further to compensate to the point where third parties would still be making more per game sold on a Nintendo console versus the other consoles even at a lower MSRP. The point would be that Nintendo takes a smaller cut yet ultimately makes more money than they do now on licensing fees because they would have more support. The caveat would be that Nintendo would also have to sell their games at $50. The point, like the lower licensing fees, is to make a smaller profit per unit but hopefully sell greater volume.
This could work in the beginning if Nintendo catches Sony and Microsoft with their pants down. It's a start, a nice incentive as long as they don't keep racing to the bottom if the competition tries to match.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 19, 2013, 06:33:36 PM
I forgot to mention this in the OP.
Launch With Mario Kart 9 Regardless of hybrids and whatnot, I think this would be the best choice. It may be risky because Nintendo would be leading with their most successful multiplayer title and things could potentially only go south from there. I think it's important to launch with such a strong title to get the console off on their right foot with a game that has such a wide audience. I also specifically mention Mario Kart 9 because 4DS should get Mario Kart 10. It would be better to have the first Mario Kart in years come to the hardware that needs it more. While I doubt Mario Kart 9 and 10 will launch so close together, it would be wise for Nintendo to avoid anything like releasing New Super Mario Bros. 2 months before launching a new console with New Super Mario Bros. U.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 19, 2013, 07:03:09 PM
I like the idea of launching with Mario Kart 9. I think it is important to fill the multiplayer experience for the console. It is what helps drive sales the most, having fun with friends.
I think Nintendo needs to launch with 3 strong games. Typically one of those games is a racing game. Mario Kart 9, sounds like the best game to launch with.
If I was to suggest anything I would suggest launching with: Mario Kart 9, Wii Sports or Wii Party, or whatever casual game they want, and a Metroid game.
This would give you a strong single player experience. A strong multiplayer experience that is a bridge game everyone loves. A strong casual game.
I would not launch with less than 3 Nintendo published exclusive games on the shelf day 1. I would also push this multiplayer atmosphere with having each system come with 2 controllers from the beginning.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: tendoboy1984 on December 26, 2013, 03:03:02 AM
I'm split on whether or not a console/handheld combined device is a good idea, mainly because a device powerful enough to be a modern home console would have **** battery life as a handheld, and what works very well as a console controller doesn't really work as a handheld controller. By the time Nintendo's next console releases, it will probably have to be a combination device, but I just don't know what that would look like.
(http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/_ui/images/wiiu/gamepad/photo1.jpg) Just add a CPU, OS, GPU, and SD card and there you go. The "TV box" will basically be an Apple TV/Roku that acts as a back-up device (with a 500GB hard drive) when playing the handheld console on the TV.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Kytim89 on December 26, 2013, 04:04:17 AM
I'm split on whether or not a console/handheld combined device is a good idea, mainly because a device powerful enough to be a modern home console would have **** battery life as a handheld, and what works very well as a console controller doesn't really work as a handheld controller. By the time Nintendo's next console releases, it will probably have to be a combination device, but I just don't know what that would look like.
The battery life of the Gamepad is already atrocious, so adding all of those things will make it worse.
(http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/_ui/images/wiiu/gamepad/photo1.jpg) Just add a CPU, OS, GPU, and SD card and there you go. The "TV box" will basically be an Apple TV/Roku that acts as a back-up device (with a 500GB hard drive) when playing the handheld console on the TV.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: tendoboy1984 on December 26, 2013, 11:01:59 AM
That's an easy fix. Nintendo can just use a bigger (higher capacity) battery. Tablets and smartphones have great battery life and they do much more than the Wii U GamePad.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: RedBlue on December 26, 2013, 01:51:51 PM
I keep reading how cool this hybrid console is going to be, but not one of you has brought up battery life for this awesome tablet. Unless you want to lug around a charger not going to happen.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 26, 2013, 05:17:32 PM
Is the battery life horrible for an iPad? How about iPhone? The battery life is terrible because Nintendo gave us a horrible battery. They even could have given us a bigger battery from the beginning, but even that battery is not as good as what is available.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: RedBlue on December 26, 2013, 06:32:54 PM
Try playing on your ipad for hours with "Wii U level" graphics and see how long that "awesome battery" last. And the majority of the weight on those devices come from the huge batteries. http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPad+Air+Teardown/18907 (http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPad+Air+Teardown/18907) So yeah there is no magical battery that can last for hours.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Kytim89 on December 26, 2013, 08:10:08 PM
Tendoboy, it's a matter of physics. If you want a powerful handheld then you have to pay for it with weak battery life.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 26, 2013, 09:18:40 PM
How would offering one device that gives consumers the best of both worlds shrink Nintendo's market?
How does Nintendo expand their market? Most people in the home console market now choose PS4/XBO due to their more powerful systems, better third party support, better online infrastructure. Do you believe that if the Wii U was in reverse, that it would significantly compete against the PS4/XBO? It still lacks significantly in those areas so I don't see how those individuals that pick those consoles want a Nintendo hybird. I'm actually curious to how many people that own a PS4/XBO own a 3DS that isn't for their kids. I don't think the majority of the console consumer market really cares what Nintendo is doing.
I don't think the home console market is waiting for Nintendo to release a hybrid to get excited about Nintendo. I think people buy systems due to games. If Nintendo is unwilling to get the third parties on their systems they have to come out with New IPs that excite the market.
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Something's gotta change. As a competitor in the Dewrito contemporary US-oriented console gaming world, Nintendo is kaput as anything other than a niche player.
Shouldn't the solution be to leave that market then, not invite Sony/Microsoft to bring hybrids to compete in their lucrative handheld market? I'm just confused why Nintendo gets hammered in the console space with hardware, but then we expect them to be able to win on hardware with a hybrid?
I think any Nintendo come back in the home console market is going to be a slow process that takes place one brick at a time. A new IP that gets a few people to defect, better hardware that gets people excited to play Mario on, better relations with third parties that get some games back. Maybe long term the market with mix handheld/home console, but I don't think it's in the best interest of Nintendo to rush that transition. I don't see the hybrid as a way to flip the market and suddenly get Nintendo back to #1.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: tendoboy1984 on December 27, 2013, 12:15:17 AM
Why not do something like the NES, N64, or Wii, release a console unlike anything else that's come before it. Oh wait, they already tried that with the Wii U and it's falling on its face. I guess 4th time isn't a charm.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: NWR_insanolord on December 27, 2013, 12:19:43 AM
The NES wasn't unlike anything that came before it, and really neither was the N64.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: tendoboy1984 on December 27, 2013, 12:30:30 AM
Yes it was. The NES introduced a new type of controller (D-pad with face buttons) and made it mainstream. Before the NES, most games were controlled by paddles and joysticks. Nintendo also pioneered the modern platformer with Super Mario Bros., along with the open-world exploration games of Zelda and Metroid.
The N64 introduced full 3D analog movement to console games, and Super Mario 64 revolutionized 3D games. Yes Sony's DualShock pioneered the modern controller interface with dual analog sticks and 4 shoulder buttons, but it probably wouldn't have evolved that way without influence from the N64 controller.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 27, 2013, 12:22:15 PM
I think around the time Sony released the dualshock is when the gaming population average age got old enough to lose the neuroplasticity that allowed them to adapt to new control schemes. It was just too much effort to learn beyond that.
"Core" gamers have fought any major revision to control schemes ever since.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on December 27, 2013, 01:53:12 PM
The Wii U isn't like nothing that came before it. It's whole big controller gimmick is effectively the same as the DS only taken to a console. What great idea requires a second touchscreen that could not have been done on the DS years ago? The second it was announced I was skeptical because I figured if Nintendo had some awesome ideas they would have used them on the DS, particularly early on when they were very blatantly struggling with coming up with ways to "prove" the importance of the touchscreen. If they had such a great idea for a second screen on a console why wouldn't they have used it on the Gamecube? And the big thing is that the Wii U comes across as out-of-date. I think it's clear the market feels that the PS4 and XB1 offer something new or at least the potential for something new while the Wii U comes across as last gen. The Wii U is a PS3 with the DS touchscreen. It's a combination of old ideas that Nintendo is merely talking up as something new. Something ACTUALLY new might have done better.
I think around the time Sony released the dualshock is when the gaming population average age got old enough to lose the neuroplasticity that allowed them to adapt to new control schemes. It was just too much effort to learn beyond that.
"Core" gamers have fought any major revision to control schemes ever since.
I think we all just found a groove we liked and it never seemed like we NEEDED any revisions so they come across as forced and gimmicky. It doesn't help that motion control was specifically marketed as having casual appeal. Nintendo made a big stink about how non-gamers were confused by the existing control scheme. You know, the scheme that core gamers already loved. So you're changing OUR control scheme to accommodate rubes that don't even like videogames? When presented in that way there is going to be a natural resistance to the change. Something new that would make "our" games control better would be a much easier sell. The whole marketing of the DS touchscreen, Wiimote and Kinect are all around attracting non-gamers and not something to improve the experience for core gamers. Thus there is an association with new control schemes and dumbing down games for casuals.
And I think a big part of it is the first impression. The SNES trigger buttons were not that much of a change. So we have more buttons? No biggie, we've used buttons from day one. The analog stick was something very unfamiliar and is probably the biggest adaptation core gamers were willing to make. It was required for Super Mario 64 which at the time got "greatest game of all time" hype. It was a big ambitious game that we all wanted to play so we adapted and the implementation was really good as well. The DS touchscreen? Nintendo's first go with that was a Super Mario 64 remake that controlled like ****. And that's a first impression wasted. Wiimote? A collection of mini-games aimed at our moms and girlfriends so that's forever associated with casuals. Kinect? HA!
When was the last time we were asked to make a major adaptation with a game that immediately sold us on its merits? I think it was the N64 analog stick (the Dualshock was just two of what we already were comfortable with). If you flub the first impression, we won't accept it. If you associate it with casuals, we won't accept it. It has to work well on day one in a game that we all want to play. People don't like change and you have to sell them on it and the analog stick was the last time anyone did that.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 27, 2013, 02:47:30 PM
I think around the time Sony released the dualshock is when the gaming population average age got old enough to lose the neuroplasticity that allowed them to adapt to new control schemes. It was just too much effort to learn beyond that.
"Core" gamers have fought any major revision to control schemes ever since.
I think as far as buttons/thumbsticks we've plateaued. I've played games where I wasn't an expert in the controls after playing the game for 2 hours. It's not that people can't learn new schemes, it's just most won't put in the time to get past extremely complicated controls. And I don't think they should have to. A fun game doesn't have to be needlessly complicated.
The only two major control changes since that I can think of are touchscreens and motion controls. I prefer traditional controls. I can't speak for everyone who does, but for me the problem is going from a situation where I have near 100% accuracy to a situation where I have 90% accuracy. If a game benefits from motion controls, then by all means have them. I play lots of games with motion controls and their existence doesn't bother me and I actually enjoy them at times.
The problem is Nintendo forcing untraditional control schemes into games that were essentially perfect with traditional controls and now they aren't with untraditional controls. The biggest example is Mario. 2D Mario has always had spot on control and it didn't need to change. If you died, you knew it was because you didn't perform the part properly. NSMB Wii included motion controls that often made me spin jump unintended while playing leading to lots of deaths. It was frustrating and it left a bad mark on an otherwise good game. I died because I shifted in my seat, not because I didn't perform the part properly.
I just don't get Nintendo. SNES had custom controls why isn't that the norm now? You want to play Mario completely with motion controls then fine. You want to play with a traditional controller, then you can do that too. If you want to hook up a steering wheel and play Mario then you should be able to do that. Nintendo kind of used the same tactics with third parties on their consumers. They treated us like our opinions didn't matter. They kept saying, you don't understand motion controls, you just need to use them more and see them in action. We understood all along, we just didn't like them in games that didn't need them. And the point would have been moot if you could have at least opted out of them like in MK. I actually expect that if Nintendo announced a new system and corresponding new control scheme that Mario/Zelda/Metroid would suffer because of the control scheme. That's not to say it would be completely a loss or they wouldn't have new IPs that would take great advantage of it. But I buy Nintendo for those series and if those series suffer, I'm more likely to be turned off to Nintendo in the future.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 27, 2013, 05:27:36 PM
I rest my case.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ceric on December 27, 2013, 08:51:08 PM
In light of reading how much of Nintendo's revenue and profits come from hardware. Nintendo should have a version of PSPlus. Its ridiculous how much they make of hardware compared to Software.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Stogi on December 28, 2013, 05:59:46 AM
Interesting thread.
There are a lot of differing opinions about how Nintendo should move forward. Needless to say, they have a lot of options.
If I can just summarize for a moment. There are those who believe Nintendo should join their hardware divisions into one, those that believe they should instead team up with others, and then there are those who believe that a game or games is actually the solution.
What you all agree on is Nintendo's inability to draw in third party support. Am I correct in assuming that?
From a financial and consumer perspective there are problems with all your conclusions, but problems aren't inherently bad. Those who believe in a hybrid have power and graphic concerns that may ultimately provide the consumer with nothing they want; those wanting a deal to be struck need to know that this is essentially the biggest "money-hat" ever proposed and could have devastating reprocussions when considering how to maintain exclusivity when your competitors have a bigger bank; lastly, simply developing a game is pressure enough but one that fans have wanted for many years would have astronomical hype and likely could be an amazing game that still will not satisfy.
Now I'd like to list out some parameters of the future of gaming, mainly focusing on the console side. I'm doing this to outline the box where Nintendo might play.
1. Games will be both the most expensive and least expensive to make in history.
2. Companies competing on the highest plane of graphics will choose to refine ideas rather than create new ones.
3. Companies competing in lower planes of graphics will be more ambitious.
4. Hardware manufacturers will continually strive to make more complicated hardware that can do several things at once.
5. Hardware will both continue to become more expensive and have longer shelf life.
6. And lastly, while gaming systems become more prevelant, dedicated gamers will decline.
Most of these seem obvious as there is evidence of it happening already but I wanted to show these as trends.
Now does anyone see where a company like Nintendo can compete? They are a dedicated gaming company. They have no ulterior motives to dominate the industry other than to make money from games. Looking over those parameters, I do not.
That is why I propose Nintendo to abandon those parameters and the market which Microsoft and Sony wish to dominate with all in one machines and veer into a more sustainable, more creative path. One that hands the consumers and producers simplicity. That's it.
No crazy controllers, no high end graphics, no netflix, no complexity at all. It will literally have only two options: Buy a game or Play a game. Furthermore, after the initial installation, there are no loading times. And if you buy a game from a store, you can trust that seconds after you pop it in, it'll play. Charge 199 for it and your done.
As for Nintendo's handhelds, I would strive to make it last a week. That would be my goal. Each iteration would last longer and longer till it lasts a week.
Edit: I would also strive to make them indestructible. That is all.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 28, 2013, 12:28:00 PM
What you all agree on is Nintendo's inability to draw in third party support. Am I correct in assuming that?
I think it's that they're unwilling more than anything else.
Nintendo being Nintendo is both the reason they rose to prominence and the reason they fell from it. Third parties came to Nintendo because Nintendo was Nintendo rather than because Nintendo did anything particularly special. Sony and Microsoft made approaching to third parties (sometimes with cash in hand) the new normal. I don't think either course is sustainable because the terms are uneven. They should all strive for a middle ground.
If Nintendo ever hopes to get more third party support, they have to be more open and they're ultimately going to have to give something up. What people don't understand is that it has to be mutual. For example, higher specs alone don't do anything. Third parties can bring their games over, but that doesn't mean they will. That's why it drives me up a wall when some people bring up "Wii/Wii U is underpowered" because it doesn't address the more important issue. Third parties can still ignore a higher spec machine and probably will because Nintendo still exists in their bubble. When you have publishers flat-out stating they had no idea what the hell Nintendo was working on, that's the first and more pressing issue. Nintendo is still operating mostly like they have for the past 25 years. They create hardware in secret and third parties can make games for them. Or not. Meh. If Nintendo is okay with that, so be it. However, third parties aren't (and logically can't) make games for hardware they barely know exists. Once Nintendo gauges interest and receives feedback, that's when things like specs and features can be discussed. And the ridiculous part is that merely it starts there.
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No crazy controllers, no high end graphics, no netflix, no complexity at all. It will literally have only two options: Buy a game or Play a game. Furthermore, after the initial installation, there are no loading times. And if you buy a game from a store, you can trust that seconds after you pop it in, it'll play. Charge 199 for it and your done.
Gimmicks aren't inherently bad and people need to stop acting like they are. I don't mind the crazy controllers so long as a traditional controller is still available and included. In hindsight, Nintendo should have included a Classic Controller (as well as Motion Plus in the Wii Remote from the beginning). They have to options rather than replacements. That's why DS and 3DS worked.
I don't think Nintendo can get away with a games-only machine in this day and age. Netflix is just the result of a connected world. Unless you mean to also remove online functionality entirely, things like Netflix are simply expected.
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As for Nintendo's handhelds, I would strive to make it last a week. That would be my goal. Each iteration would last longer and longer till it lasts a week.
I'm not really sure what this means.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 28, 2013, 01:22:50 PM
Stogi makes some excellent points.
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6. And lastly, while gaming systems become more prevelant, dedicated gamers will decline.
This one is right on the money. Technology has a way of becoming popular and destroying hobbies.
- The decline of Hi Fi as a hobby. Twenty Five years ago, everybody who was into music has a big stereo in their living room with big speakers, tuners, receivers, tape, record and disc players. Along came digital music and the ability to play music anywhere. NOTE: music did not go aways, just the classic audiophile.
- The decline of photography as a hobby. Multiple cameras, multiple lenses, dark rooms and film. Now every phone has a camera built in. You don't have to take the perfect shop, you can use Photoshop to make it perfect.
- The decline of PC building as a hobby. I saw this one personally. The computer shop I worked in had a steady stream of customers buying motherboards, drives and more. Enthusiasts would always be building and upgrading their computers. This slowed down to a trickle by the end of the last decade. Most people bought a cheap laptop and supplemented with a smart phone or tablet.
In all these cases, The results that the hobby produced became cheaper, ubiquitous, required less components and effort. All these hobbies still exist, the things that replaced them offer inferior results, but they are good enough.
There are still music, photos, and computing. But fewer people are dedicated to them in the same way.
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As for Nintendo's handhelds, I would strive to make it last a week. That would be my goal. Each iteration would last longer and longer till it lasts a week.
I'm not really sure what this means.
The battery could last a week.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Stogi on December 28, 2013, 04:19:27 PM
My handheld comment means I would make a system that could last a week with non stop gaming without needing to recharge, I.e. damn near forever. Each iteration would push the hours it lasts until it's a non issue.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Stogi on December 28, 2013, 06:04:34 PM
No crazy controllers, no high end graphics, no netflix, no complexity at all. It will literally have only two options: Buy a game or Play a game. Furthermore, after the initial installation, there are no loading times. And if you buy a game from a store, you can trust that seconds after you pop it in, it'll play. Charge 199 for it and your done.
Gimmicks aren't inherently bad and people need to stop acting like they are. I don't mind the crazy controllers so long as a traditional controller is still available and included. In hindsight, Nintendo should have included a Classic Controller (as well as Motion Plus in the Wii Remote from the beginning). They have to options rather than replacements. That's why DS and 3DS worked.
I don't think Nintendo can get away with a games-only machine in this day and age. Netflix is just the result of a connected world. Unless you mean to also remove online functionality entirely, things like Netflix are simply expected.
The wiimote is actually the least complicated controller of the last gen by far. The attachments is where it got tricky. I actually think two wiimotes "tied" together could be the coolest controller in history, but that's niether here or there
As for a games only machine not working, I wholeheartedly disagree. The fact that it does nothing else but play games immediately will throw a wrench in the whole equation. Sony and Microsoft with all their horse power will actually look slow. People, now having something to compare, will become frustrated by all the extra nonessential functions that Sony and Microsoft employ to ultimately distract you from the pure and simple goal of gaming. They will finally see how broken the system is with constant updates, DLC, and in game advertisements.
Furthermore, Nintendo simply can't compete on their turf no matter how much you think they can. It is unsustainable. There was a reason for the blue ocean strategy after all. So take the moral high ground. Become the organic amongst all the vegetables except be easier to enjoy by being less expensive and more focused. Remind people of what a gaming system is suppose to be. Fun at a drop of a hat. Start the Revolution.
As for online, anything that makes the enjoyment of games better and safe guards them should be used. Miiverse, one centralized account, ratings, achievements etc. I am all for it. However bring back the seal of approval. Games that release early and require patches are simply not excepted for the sake of the consumer. DLC and free to play will not be allowed. Release your game as a whole. Again this is for thr consumers sake.
The point is to be simple and effective which is ultimately attractive. People should ask themselves as soon as they turn the system on why was it simpler to play a few quick games with your friends a few generations ago then it is now?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 28, 2013, 07:56:56 PM
The wiimote is actually the least complicated controller of the last gen by far. The attachments is where it got tricky. I actually think two wiimotes "tied" together could be the coolest controller in history, but that's niether here or there
The only attachment to the Wii Remote should have been the Nunchuk. Motion Plus should have been part of the Wii Remote like it is now and the Classic Controller should have been its own independent controller. Not all games worked with the Wii Remote which is fine, but that's why including a traditional controller would have made sense.
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As for a games only machine not working, I wholeheartedly disagree. The fact that it does nothing else but play games immediately will throw a wrench in the whole equation. Sony and Microsoft with all their horse power will actually look slow. People, now having something to compare, will become frustrated by all the extra nonessential functions that Sony and Microsoft employ to ultimately distract you from the pure and simple goal of gaming. They will finally see how broken the system is with constant updates, DLC, and in game advertisements.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I'm not suggesting Nintendo try to make an all-in-one like Sony and Microsoft. I simply find the extras Nintendo does offer to be unobtrusive. And I definitely don't see everyone having a grand epiphany regarding things like patches, DLC, and in-game ads upon seeing a pure gaming console. Third parties like those things and the last thing Nintendo should do is tell third parties they can't have any of that. Nintendo would lose what little support they have now, including indies. A strictly games console with ridiculous self-imposed restrictions would simply make Nintendo look even more out of touch than ever.
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Furthermore, Nintendo simply can't compete on their turf no matter how much you think they can. It is unsustainable. There was a reason for the blue ocean strategy after all. So take the moral high ground. Become the organic amongst all the vegetables except be easier to enjoy by being less expensive and more focused. Remind people of what a gaming system is suppose to be. Fun at a drop of a hat. Start the Revolution.
Isn't that what Nintendo is already doing? They're the most focused games console maker. I don't really see how having Netflix complicates anything.
As for completing, Nintendo doesn't have a choice. As long as these consoles play videogames, they're all competing with each other. In terms of gaming, Nintendo just need to be smarter. They have to listen to their partners unless they really want to have at it alone.
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As for online, anything that makes the enjoyment of games better and safe guards them should be used. Miiverse, one centralized account, ratings, achievements etc. I am all for it. However bring back the seal of approval. Games that release early and require patches are simply not excepted for the sake of the consumer. DLC and free to play will not be allowed. Release your game as a whole. Again this is for thr consumers sake.
Again, Nintendo will just lose all support since they would be the only console maker making those demands. No one wants to deal with a bully. You say this is for the consumer's sake but only in a perfect world. In reality, this is an anti-consumer move because no third party is putting up with that crap resulting in a game console with far fewer games.
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The point is to be simple and effective which is ultimately attractive. People should ask themselves as soon as they turn the system on why was it simpler to play a few quick games with your friends a few generations ago then it is now?
I get what you're saying; it's just way too idealistic. Things were simpler generations ago because it was impossible to do what we can do today. Games have also become more complicated. Nintendo has some of the best testers in the industry and they missed two game breaking glitches last generation (Twilight Princess and Other M). Patches can lead to laziness, but sometimes they can't be helped. You have to take the good with the bad. Same with paid downloadable content. And even then, it's always optional. I've yet to pay for any DLC. I don't mind it existing because if I don't think it's worth it, I don't give that company my money. If I really think they're nickel and diming consumers, I just won't buy their game. Consumers have a voice.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 28, 2013, 09:08:29 PM
I'm not sure I said the same thing as you. I said in games that controls were perfect and alternative controls made them less accurate Nintendo should have allowed the traditional controls as an alternative. I'm not sure how that equates to fighting Nintendo tooth and nail because alternative controls exist. Nobody was arguing that traditional controls should have been shoehorned in WiiSports. If they had, that might have been the worse game ever invented.
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6. And lastly, while gaming systems become more prevelant, dedicated gamers will decline.
I think this is a bit of a misnomer. Dedicated gamers seems to imply that I want a system that only plays games. Games are my biggest hobby, but I enjoy watching movies, listening to music, surfing the web. My PS3 can do all these. As a person who focuses mainly on gaming I just want the gaming element of the console to not suffer when they add all these other features. And I think we are already there. If I want to watch a blu ray on my PS3, I just pop that in the disc drive instead of the game. If I go a couple of months without watching a blu ray, I literally don't have to do anything special to turn my PS3 into a dedicated games machine it just is. As processing power has increased, it does all these multi-media things seamlessly and doesn't harm the game experience. I don't think it takes alot of time either to add a MP3 program to the interface or a netflix app like the Wii U or whatever. Focus is still on games even if these exist.
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QuoteAs for online, anything that makes the enjoyment of games better and safe guards them should be used. Miiverse, one centralized account, ratings, achievements etc. I am all for it. However bring back the seal of approval. Games that release early and require patches are simply not excepted for the sake of the consumer. DLC and free to play will not be allowed. Release your game as a whole. Again this is for thr consumers sake.
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Again, Nintendo will just lose all support since they would be the only console maker making those demands. No one wants to deal with a bully. You say this is for the consumer's sake but only in a perfect world. In reality, this is an anti-consumer move because no third party is putting up with that crap resulting in a game console with far fewer games.
I agree with Adrock. It's a good idea in theory, but the reality is game development is much more complicated than the NES days. The reality is it's likely games will have bugs even if you've tested the game extensively. Why not give developers opportunities to fix those bugs when they are found? I think that's better for me to play a better/completed game.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Stogi on December 29, 2013, 07:44:08 AM
We demand faster, effecient, more sound products in every other aspect of our lives. Why do we not demand the same from game companies?
And what is so wrong about contraints? Without contraints, ingenuity would be meaningless.
What makes the gaming industry so special that it can throw all its flaws directly on the consumer? Why are we so privileged?
As the largest game only company in the world, Nintendo has a chance to shift the industry back to its rightful domain and innovative where there has only been excuses.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 29, 2013, 08:05:32 AM
I guess you and I want different things then. In many ways, I'm not dissapointed where dedicated consoles are going from a hardware and media software perspective. The PS3 is an awesome dedicated gaming (if only it had Nintendo software) machine that is also an awesome media device.
Would it be nice if there was an auto load disc feature like the DS had? Maybe, but the reality is that we are moving to a digital world where most if not all games with be accessed via an O/S on a hard-drive. As that happens we either need the game console to be psychic to auto load the game I want or it will need to have an O/S that loads and I choose from that menu. As such, I think that the games menu should auto load to highlight the games. The fact that there are other media menus isn't a bad thing to me.
That doesn't give Nintendo a pass for the Wii U menus being clunky and taking too long to load, but I think they know about those problems and are trying to address them within the constraints they created. I don't see the games industry throwing all of it's flaws on the consumers more than any other industry asks its consumers to deal with economic hardware/software constraints.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: rlse9 on December 29, 2013, 04:51:39 PM
We demand faster, effecient, more sound products in every other aspect of our lives. Why do we not demand the same from game companies?
And what is so wrong about contraints? Without contraints, ingenuity would be meaningless.
What makes the gaming industry so special that it can throw all its flaws directly on the consumer? Why are we so privileged?
As the largest game only company in the world, Nintendo has a chance to shift the industry back to its rightful domain and innovative where there has only been excuses.
I think you're confusing gaming industry with tech industry. Every version of Windows comes with day 1 security updates, almost all major PC software issues patches for bug fixes, my Android phone has several apps update every day, often involving bug fixes. If you want to be an early adopter with anything tech related, there's a good chance that there will be some headaches involved. And since the tech industry is booming, I doubt it will be changing anytime soon, for better or worse.
Specific to Nintendo, the last thing they need to be doing is anything that makes it harder on 3rd parties to make games for their system.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Stogi on December 29, 2013, 05:40:59 PM
Sigh...
I just pity the kids growing up in this day and age when playing a video game can be an exercise in patience rather than slamming a cartridge in and slapping the power switch on.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 29, 2013, 06:06:48 PM
We demand faster, effecient, more sound products in every other aspect of our lives. Why do we not demand the same from game companies?
Who says we don't? Console owners are always demanding more and better things.
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And what is so wrong about contraints? Without contraints, ingenuity would be meaningless.
Depends on the constraints. Making Netflix available doesn't stop a console from playing good games.
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What makes the gaming industry so special that it can throw all its flaws directly on the consumer? Why are we so privileged?
I'm not sure everyone agrees with your stated flaws. Additionally, companies can try to push things on consumers, but consumers choose whether to accept them. If they were really so unacceptable, people wouldn't buy anything.
I just pity the kids growing up in this day and age when playing a video game can be an exercise in patience rather than slamming a cartridge in and slapping the power switch on.
And maybe they don't want or need your pity. Maybe they pity us for living through such a limited age of gaming. Times change and every generation is provided with new experiences. The only thing that hasn't changed is people's ability to say no. If these kids you pity so much really felt the same way you do, they could not play video games. You're acting like they don't have a choice. They have plenty of choices. Things may not be perfect, but they don't change over night. And honestly, some of the things you're railing about others find good for the industry.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on December 29, 2013, 08:14:49 PM
I just pity the kids growing up in this day and age when playing a video game can be an exercise in patience rather than slamming a cartridge in and slapping the power switch on.
I'm 33, it's been awhile since someone called me a kid. You forgot about cleaning the system and blowing on the cartridge and hoping it works :). I'm all for streamlining things if possible, but I can get most games to start within 30 seconds on my Wii U (which still has long load times compared to alternatives). To me that is acceptable. Would I like faster? Of course, just like I'd like all games to be <$10, but it's not a deal breaker to me.
The big benefit on modern tech, is starting a new game within the menu without changing discs or getting out of a chair or reloading anything. As long as the game is on the Wii U harddrive it's like 5 seconds to get out of a game and into a new game. It used to take me much longer to change NES or SNES games.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Stogi on December 30, 2013, 04:22:49 AM
I simply can't see any other options working. Competing with Sony and Microsoft next go around will be disastrous. Trying to innovative or merge markets will confuse customers. And trying to develop a system that expands the market yet again will take an incredible amount of ingenuity.
Maybe I only had half the equation. Other than providing a bare bones experience that trivialized any wait periods, they could provide the most robust streaming and downloading catalog in history. Basically become the netflix of gaming. Maybe the innovation should come in the form of providing a service where consumers can browse every game Nintendo has ever made and are able to play them instantly all for a monthly fee.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on December 30, 2013, 08:11:09 AM
I simply can't see any other options working. Competing with Sony and Microsoft next go around will be disastrous.
Why?
Nintendo still makes more money on video games than Sony and Microsoft. Sure, a lot of it is thanks to their handhelds, but their hardware in general is always designed to turn a profit as soon as possible. The main problem with Wii U is that Nintendo came out of the gates so laughably unprepared. It's a good console with the potential to be great. Nintendo had no urgency. Wii U's lackluster performance is due to negligence. They had a gap in their release schedule, poor marketing, and no real gameplan. How the hell does a company launch a console like that? Consumers responded by ignoring it, at least until Nintendo released some new software. This is not complicated. People buy Nintendo hardware to play Nintendo games. Get that part right. The rest is a bit more difficult yet still mostly common sense. Most of the things I listed in the opening post are fairly obvious.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on January 03, 2014, 10:56:48 AM
Does anyone remember if Nintendo 64 had different color controllers at launch? I think it did, but I'm not sure. I didn't get my N64 until February 1997 when Mario Kart 64 came out and my mom got me the black controller. I still think the console itself should come in a neutral color like black or silver (at least at first), but I'd love to have different color controllers from the beginning. I realize that having only one color streamlines the manufacturing process especially at launch when materials are constrained. It's still something I'd like to see.
Right now, I have one black Wii U Pro Controller. I didn't want the white controller since the analog stick would look dirty from use. I'm hoping by the time Mario Kart 8 or Super Smash Bros. comes out, Nintendo will have released some different colors.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BranDonk Kong on January 03, 2014, 11:06:45 AM
No it was black only.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: rlse9 on January 03, 2014, 02:36:07 PM
I thought it came in multiple colors at launch. I got one not long after launch and bought a green controller to go with the gray controller included with the system. I agree, having different colored controllers was great, especially when having a group of friends over and taking turns playing 4 player games.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BranDonk Kong on January 03, 2014, 03:32:23 PM
They did have different colored controllers at launch I believe, but the console was only in black for a while.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Shaymin on January 03, 2014, 11:36:59 PM
Console was black, controllers were grey, blue, green, red, yellow and black (IIRC).
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Kytim89 on January 04, 2014, 01:32:55 AM
Here's how I see the Wii U successor taking place. The Wii U will be successful enough for Nintendo to justify continuing with the concept of streaming games to a screened controller. Since Nintendo's home turf is more of a handheld centric industry and leaving the home console market would be a financial disaster, Nintendo creates a home console that is on par with the techonology of Sony and Microsoft of 2017-2018. However, the controller of this new home console is about the size of a PS Vita with a decent LCD screen. By this time cloud streaming and bandwith have improved to allow lag-proof game streaming anywhere. The bottom line with this new console is that you can purchase games on the eShop and take the controller anywhere and play home console games on the go.
This new Nintendo home console should be called the "Phoenix" because it is Nintendo's home console strategy being reborn into something newer and more efficient for the times ahead.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on January 05, 2014, 11:29:28 AM
An on-live handheld? My internet will definitely not be fast enough to do that by 2018. I live in the country and I can't even stream 480p video content without buffering now. I don't have problem with the idea of an on-live system, but I can't see them moving away from a box that has the ability to download for those that just don't have the internet capability.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Stratos on January 05, 2014, 03:00:07 PM
I think that the next system will have off-screen streaming to the 3D-Next handheld system (4DS?). Then Nintendo could choose to not include a tablet controller in the package. The systems should be so complimentary that people would view both systems as two halves of a whole.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 29, 2014, 09:58:41 PM
Nomura analyst now asking why Nintendo revamped its organizational structure to merge consoles and portable devices. Mr. Iwata says there was a huge technological gap in developing consoles and portable games in the past since portable devices run on batteries, but technological advances have narrowed the architectural difference between the two. He adds he doesn’t know yet whether the two hardware will be merged in the future, but the two will become more like “brothers.”
Hybrid is on the drawing board. 3rd Pillar is still a possibility.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on January 29, 2014, 10:39:32 PM
Super Platform Brothers. Year of Luigi U.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Stogi on January 30, 2014, 12:42:27 AM
I read "brothers" in a japanese accent. It couldn't be helped.
I still don't think merging the two products is a good idea, but it should at least be whirled around RnD.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: tendoboy1984 on January 30, 2014, 01:04:56 AM
Nomura analyst now asking why Nintendo revamped its organizational structure to merge consoles and portable devices. Mr. Iwata says there was a huge technological gap in developing consoles and portable games in the past since portable devices run on batteries, but technological advances have narrowed the architectural difference between the two. He adds he doesn’t know yet whether the two hardware will be merged in the future, but the two will become more like “brothers.”
Hybrid is on the drawing board. 3rd Pillar is still a possibility.
The third pillar is 'health', meaning an expanded focus on fitness and educational games. See Wii Fit and Brain Age for example.
Iwata wants to expand Nintendo's reach and create another 'blue ocean', which might work out for them since health is something everyone can relate to.
I'm just glad they aren't exiting the integrated hardware / software business. Utilizing smart phones to promote their products is a good tool for marketing. Using the Nintendo Network ID as a way to tie everything to a software platform (rather than hardware) is a good move forward.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Stogi on January 30, 2014, 01:20:14 AM
I remember being very surprised when my father, a professor of physiology, wanted to buy a Wii for educational purposes. I told him to buy Trauma Center haha
I was also surprised to read consistently of hospitals buying the Wii for child patients and rehab patients.
So maybe a real focus on health and education isn't a bad idea.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on January 30, 2014, 07:24:20 AM
The Wii helps alot with patients that have balance issues or neurological issues that would make them a fall risk. It can also help them with gaining muscle memory if they have had an injury and have been forced to be inactive for a long time. I think the Wii fit a nice niche in the healthcare industry. The Wii U doesn't really fit the same niche as touchscreens don't help with the same things that the Wii uses.
I'm skeptical that a third pillar in healthcare is the way to go. Maybe I'm the only one, but I thought the Wii Fit meter was redundant. There are tons of pedometers on the market, some have more bells/whistles than others. In my Nintendo survey, I told them I'd rather pay $20 for Wii Fit U than have to have another accessory that isn't going to be used.
In healthcare there are also a ton of competitors. If Nintendo were to find a niche item I think the industry would find a way to do it better.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 30, 2014, 12:57:21 PM
But could they find a way that was more fun and interactive than whatever Nintendo comes up with? Hardware that helps you interact physically with software that gives you something to visually respond to could be a nice side market for Nintendo.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on June 12, 2014, 11:36:47 PM
"The question of whether or not we want to take a portable system and a home console system and decide if maybe, as the computer processing power improves, we could just simply say we'll stick with a portable and make it something that could also be a home console system is a question that ties directly into product strategy, and is something I can't really go into detail on," Miyamoto explained.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 12, 2014, 11:54:06 PM
That is a long and convoluted way of saying essentially nothing.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 13, 2014, 02:19:42 AM
Or a long and convoluted way of saying that "The Hybrid" has a chance.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 13, 2014, 02:29:19 AM
More like "Yes, that is an idea someone might have."
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 13, 2014, 02:35:29 AM
More like "that is an idea we had.... But I can't talk about it (someone might try to steal the idea)"
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 13, 2014, 05:19:57 AM
I really don't know what Nintendo will do next.
I expect them to either
A) Go hybrid
B) Go back to the just motion controls and try to start a new with a more sophisticated motion control system. I think the tablet controller was a mistake. I think Nintendo believes that too.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 13, 2014, 05:28:40 AM
I can't see them going back to motion control. It only really worked in specific contexts, and even their own games were hurt by it more often than they benefited from it.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on June 13, 2014, 07:35:05 AM
I doubt Nintendo will ever go all in with motion controls again, but I think motion controls will always be part of their future consoles. I see them doubling down on traditional controls and adding to it like with the GamePad. It just wasn't ready. The GamePad couldn't do all the things people wanted it to do and it was perhaps not light enough for some people to use for an extended period of time. Those problems are easy fixes just with the way technology improves over time.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on June 13, 2014, 09:35:26 AM
Motion Controls need to bundled in like a NES Zapper.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: nickmitch on June 13, 2014, 09:43:13 AM
I think Nintendo will probably go back to robot-based controllers.
That or holodecks.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on June 13, 2014, 12:53:13 PM
B) Go back to the just motion controls and try to start a new with a more sophisticated motion control system. I think the tablet controller was a mistake. I think Nintendo believes that too.
BOOOOOOO!!!!
Seriously though it's not the tablet, it's the concept of having outdated hardware with a gimmick controller. That concept was a big fad with casuals and then they all went to smartphones and the traditional videogame market, the only one that will actually buy a dedicated videogame machine anymore, doesn't like it. The Wii U isn't bombing because the tablet just ain't that hot but rather because the whole basic approach that the Wii had is no longer marketable. If Nintendo sticks with gimmick controllers as their console design it will fail.
Besides the whole thing is forced anyway. It's like they come up with these controllers to justify the console being a seperate platform from the handheld. If the only reason to have a Nintendo console is to use some wacky controller that only works well for a handful of games and is an annoying chore to use in everything else then why buy one? Nintendo doesn't seem to want to work with modern hardware and they can get away with that on a handheld. The market doesn't want a console that's a generation behind if the only justification for its existence is a goofy controller. The hybrid lets Nintendo work on the sort of hardware they want to while also providing a product people actually want.
I'm happy Nintendo at least somewhat acknowledges the idea. Maybe Miyamoto was given a question directly about a hybrid but at least his response wasn't "A hybrid? Why would we do that?" He wasn't caught off guard like Nintendo was when someone suggested using two Gamepads at the same time.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on June 13, 2014, 01:17:19 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/L0159pe.jpg)
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on June 13, 2014, 11:55:28 PM
Anybody familiar with the light bulbs you control from a tablet or computer that illuminate the room different colors on command? almost like the illumaroom? Non-wearable tech is just that, full room immersion. Morpheus/ oculus rift is still another gen away from next( 10th if your counting).
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Stogi on December 01, 2014, 11:40:49 PM
It's Kotaku, but someone agrees with me (ie make a system that can load a game in seconds; do away with patching or at least trivialize it).
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Khushrenada on December 02, 2014, 01:27:26 AM
Actually, that was something that surprised me. I bought Just Dance 4, Just Dance 2014 and Injustice all for Wii U and when I popped them in to the system to make sure they work, I had to wait for an update to be installed on all 3 and it was highly annoying especially when I wasn't even looking to play them but just test them. I had no idea this was an issue. I've been using my Wii U to play a lot of Wii games so it was a surprise. Do Nintendo games have this issue? I don't recall any problem when I popped in NSMBWU or 3D World to test them.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: ShyGuy on December 02, 2014, 01:46:21 AM
Can't u skip the update and start playing?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Khushrenada on December 02, 2014, 10:15:05 AM
I saw that option but I didn't use it. I wasn't sure how it would affect the performance of the game and so I didn't want to start the game and it have issues making me think I had bought a defective copy when I just needed to allow the software to update. Plus, if I skip it now, won't I have to still update it later at some point? Might as well get it done now.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on December 02, 2014, 05:08:36 PM
I find this stuff very annoying as well but I don't know how much value there is to getting rid of it. To get rid of it don't you have to do away with internal storage? If the option is there devs will use it. It's similar to load times and while the PS1 had load times it wasn't so annoying that the N64 not having them helped it. The trade-offs for eliminating load times wasn't worth it to consumer. I imagine a console designed to specifically load games in seconds would have similar trade-offs. Let's say you still have internal storage and online connections but you just ban patches. Well won't third parties just leave or make the same buggy game on all the systems but only fix it on the patchable consoles and not yours?
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Mop it up on December 02, 2014, 07:00:10 PM
I wish the average consumer did care about things like load times, constant lengthy updates, mandatory installs, etc., because I find it all intensely annoying, but unfortunately I don't think most people care about that stuff.
Actually, that was something that surprised me. I had no idea this was an issue. Do Nintendo games have this issue? I don't recall any problem when I popped in NSMBWU or 3D World to test them.
I don't recall if SM3DW had any updates, but NSMBU did have an update that added Pro Controller support. However, if you have the NSMBU + NSLU combo pack, I believe this update is already on the disc and you wouldn't have to get an update before playing it.
Other games have had more updates though, such as Mario Kart VIII, Smash Bros, Hyrule Warriors, etc. I remember I had to wait an hour to play when the MK8 August update came out, and that was about how long it took with the first DLC pack also. So annoying.
If you choose to skip updates for the time being, they will be downloaded in the background as you play. However, they do not install in the background, so you'll still have to sit through installs when you start up the games. There shouldn't be an issue if you play without the updates, except that any game with an online mode probably won't let you go online without the update.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Soren on January 11, 2015, 11:38:58 PM
Digital Foundry dips their toe in the Wii U successor waters...
In short, Nintendo's new hardware should be adaptable, flexible and capable of running the same core code and basic assets across a range of hardware. While Android and iOS represent the kind of framework Nintendo aspires to, they do not offer the kind of granular 'to the metal' access to the hardware a console-maker requires. They are designed to work across multiple generations of different architectures, but the end result is often unfocused performance. Nintendo has a golden opportunity to partner with a single vendor that offers the same core technology and feature-set across a wide gamut of power levels, accommodating handheld, console or any other device the firm wants to develop.
Quote
Creating a scalable platform isn't a vast undertaking in partnership with the right hardware vendor - but basing it on the Wii U is fundamentally a bad idea. The hardware make-up of Nintendo's last console is based on two key components - ancient PowerPC cores from IBM (the presence of which appears to have been dictated mostly by Wii back-compatability), along with DirectX 10-era graphics technology from AMD. While the Wii U was a power-efficient design, its PowerPC CPU architecture would be immensely difficult to scale down to mobile, while AMD left the kind of graphics tech utilised by the Wii U behind many, many years ago.
Quote
The question of just how powerful the hardware needs to be depends to a certain extent on Nintendo's approach to third-party support. Part of the problem with Wii U was the fact that it was attempting to do something new and different, while at the same time making a play for multi-platform developers - few of whom ended up putting a lot of effort into using the GamePad effectively, and who found it hard to translate Xbox 360 and PS3 titles across to a platform with a very different hardware balance. (...) In short, it's a case of quality over quantity, with tacit acceptance that it will be Nintendo (and 'second party' partners) that once again provides the must-have titles that define the console experience.
Tons more in the link.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on January 12, 2015, 06:16:00 PM
Interesting article. It comes across that the priority is on what Nintendo wants to do with the hardware. The real key to Nintendo regaining any sort of relevance in the console sector is to regain the strong third party support they haven't had in almost 20 years. To do that they have to design the system for the third parties, not for Nintendo themselves. Since the N64 the approach has been to design specifically for Nintendo's own needs and that idea has failed 3 out of 4 times and failed 100% of the time in regards to attracting even acceptable third party support. It would be idiotic or insane to do that yet again. If any developer has to make due with a design they're not that familiar or comfortable with it should be Nintendo themselves. They're the odd man out.
The article seems to focus a lot of Nintendo's desire to have it easy to port between their handheld and console. But why would that matter? Why is that a priority? So they have the same games on both? Cool idea if you buy one game and it works on both but I wouldn't be very excited if it was the Sony model where the same game is made on both and you have to buy two copies. It would seem to fit the hybrid idea but in that scenario the hardware would be the same so you don't need to port anything. It's just one system. If they need to port games between the two formats then they're doing the hybrid idea wrong.
Though I do fear that the hybrid idea kills something that we gamers would like to be rid of but companies like Nintendo would want to maintain - the need to buy two systems with two libraries of games. I'm sure Nintendo likes having two product lines and that there is a fair amount of customers that regularly buy games for both formats. Having one system that meets both needs would in theory cut those sales in half, though the idea is that the concept would sell well enough to make up for that. Ultimately I think the hybrid is the future and whoever successfully implements it first will make the two platform approach obsolete overnight. Nintendo can be the company leading the way or they one stuck with their pants down. Of course if stubbornly sticking to an outdated model that they would benefit more from in the short term is an option I figure that's what they'll take.
Right now Japan likes handhelds, America likes consoles. In theory a hybrid allows for one single product that can sell with both markets. Nintendo, however, is probably looking at the approach they demonstrated with SSB. A handheld for Japan and a console for America and effectively one game made for both platforms to appeal to each group and get some bonus sales from double-dippers.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Soren on January 12, 2015, 06:43:01 PM
The article seems to focus a lot of Nintendo's desire to have it easy to port between their handheld and console. But why would that matter? Why is that a priority? So they have the same games on both?
A handheld and a console sharing the same architecture means you cut development time/cost greatly, the console team could take a game from the handheld team and build up from it, instead of having to start from scratch in order to fit the specific architecture of the other machine. It's not so both systems have the same game, but rather being able to build from a game you already finished to have the next version of the franchise on the other platform. (Mario Kart 7 to 8 )
Nintendo is in a precarious position, but it's not so bad that they would feel the need to jettison 1 of their 2 systems. I firmly believe Nintendo will still have two distinct follow ups to 3DS and Wii U with their separate library of games. But they'll share the same architecture, have improved levels of connectivity between both of them (unified Nintendo Network, shared eShop, Virtual Console, etc.) with speedier development times allowing for a more robust release schedule.
The problem is Nintendo still feeling like they need to hang on to those old-ass PowerPC cores and DirectX10 era graphics from AMD. Nintendo would have to start fresh for the first time in over a decade, and sacrifice backwards compatibility to do so. That's more than a fair trade-off for me.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on January 12, 2015, 07:16:49 PM
The article seems to focus a lot of Nintendo's desire to have it easy to port between their handheld and console. But why would that matter? Why is that a priority? So they have the same games on both?
A handheld and a console sharing the same architecture means you cut development time/cost greatly, the console team could take a game from the handheld team and build up from it, instead of having to start from scratch in order to fit the specific architecture of the other machine. It's not so both systems have the same game, but rather being able to build from a game you already finished to have the next version of the franchise on the other platform. (Mario Kart 7 to 8 )
I hadn't thought of that. That's a good point. Though that would continue the situation with the Wii U where so many of the major games have their thunder stolen by a fairly similar 3DS game being released shortly before. Of course it doesn't have to work that way, depending on scheduling.
The problem is Nintendo still feeling like they need to hang on to those old-ass PowerPC cores and DirectX10 era graphics from AMD. Nintendo would have to start fresh for the first time in over a decade, and sacrifice backwards compatibility to do so. That's more than a fair trade-off for me.
This is the crux of the whole "design for Nintendo" vs. "design for everyone else" dilemma. Sorry, Nintendo, you either start fresh and give up backwards compatibility or you have effectively no third party support (think EA and Ubi would even give token efforts next time if Nintendo stuck with this design?) and your console sells like dog ****. I don't see it as there even being two options. "We make everyone else change instead of ourselves" is like a little kid hissy fit decision that no business that stays in business makes. "Everyone else changes" won't happen. That choice is failure. Change or fail.
The funny thing about backwards compatibility is not only do consumers not care anymore (and maybe never really did) but not offering it better suits the desires of the greedy corporation. There are PS4 versions of PS3 games like Last of Us and GTA V and they're selling. Doesn't Nintendo love double dip sales? Why even have the option for people to buy some old used Wii game rather than rebuy the same game new for the Wii U? You figure Nintendo would LOVE making consumers start fresh each time.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Triforce Hermit on January 12, 2015, 07:41:42 PM
I do like backwards compatibility. I use Gamecube games on the Wii, I use A LOT of PS1 games on the PS2, I use a lot of DS games on the 3DS, I used a lot of GBA games on the DS, and I did occasionally use the backwards compatibility for the Xbox 360. It is a trade off, yes, and its one I'm not comfortable with. My N64 is still kicking perfectly fine and so are the games. Hell, my SNES is still perfect and it sat in a barn for 12 years straight. There even isn't any yellowing. My Wii? It can't play Xenoblade, the only game worth playing on the Wii in my opinion. So therefore its only use is GC games. Newer consoles die faster. I don't want to beg for a remake or a port. I want a durable console, which I don't have and probably won't get anymore. So therefore I have a problem with letting go of backwards compatibility.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ian Sane on January 12, 2015, 08:02:09 PM
I like backwards compatibility as well but would that be the "make or break" factor in buying a system for you? For me it's a "nice to have" feature but nothing I see as essential.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Ceric on January 12, 2015, 08:27:07 PM
Seriously BC I be fine them dropping if it allow them to produce something that could drive an 8k TV and the media features need for the enthusiast.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Triforce Hermit on January 12, 2015, 08:27:43 PM
Essential? No. But like I said, I'm uncomfortable with letting it go.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Adrock on January 12, 2015, 08:57:38 PM
A handheld and a console sharing the same architecture means you cut development time/cost greatly, the console team could take a game from the handheld team and build up from it, instead of having to start from scratch in order to fit the specific architecture of the other machine. It's not so both systems have the same game, but rather being able to build from a game you already finished to have the next version of the franchise on the other platform. (Mario Kart 7 to 8 )
This is essentially what Nintendo has been trying to do for over a decade when they made one Mario character model to use in multiple games during the Gamecube generation. Didn't people call it lazy back then? It makes sense though. How much better can Mario really look now that he's already in HD?
As for backwards compatibility, I've advocated dropping it at the beginning of this very thread. I like backwards compatibility, but for the purposes of moving forward and allowing Wii U's successor stand on its own, I think it would be wise drop backwards compatibility as well as keep costs lower.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: Soren on January 12, 2015, 09:05:52 PM
This is hardly a debate. If Nintendo decides to roll out another version of the same CPU they've been using since Gamecube for its successor platform in order to have backwards compatibility then they're making the wrong decision.
The problem is Iwata is already quoted as saying that he wants the new systems to absorb the Wii U architecture in some way.
Quote
"It of course does not mean that we are going to use exactly the same architecture as Wii U, but we are going to create a system that can absorb the Wii U architecture adequately. When this happens, home consoles and handheld devices will no longer be completely different, and they will become like brothers in a family of systems."
This is essentially what Nintendo has been trying to do for over a decade when they made one Mario character model to use in multiple games during the Gamecube generation. Didn't people call it lazy back then? It makes sense though. How much better can Mario really look now that he's already in HD?
Maybe it was, but back then there were 4 consoles, a healthier handheld market and more developers than we have today. Right now, development costs need to go down desperately for all platforms.
Title: Re: Something Something Wii U Successor Somethng
Post by: BranDonk Kong on January 12, 2015, 10:43:19 PM
They don't have to drop backwards compatibility - but they should, at least with Wii and Wii U games, unless they are going that route again. Either way, if they wanted to keep backwards compatibility, they could easily write a Wii emulator to run on a modern CPU like those in the Xbone and PS4. Hell, Wii U emulation probably wouldn't be that difficult either since it's largely based on the same architecture.
