Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: pokepal148 on June 12, 2013, 04:40:27 PM
Title: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: pokepal148 on June 12, 2013, 04:40:27 PM
There's a lot of fanboys out there with a power-fetish that believe that having as many cores as possible in a CPU clocked at insane speeds is inherently better. Which just isn't true anymore for today's CPUs.
the Xbone and PS4 may have this fancy 8 core CPU, but both companies made it clear that their consoles shift their focus beyond games alone, describing various multitasking type functions going in the background. This would mean that some precentage of those 8 cores are simply off-limits for actual games.
Also, Wii U is confirmed to run Yebis 2, which is the middleware used in Square-Enix's Luminous engine. Remember the Agni's Philosophy demo? The Wii U can run that too. There isn't a single engine running on PS4 and Xbone, that the Wii U can't handle. So yeah, if all the raging fanboys (including some devs) can put the Wii U is underpowered thing to rest, that'd be great, because it's simply not true.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 12, 2013, 04:47:16 PM
*sees that Pokepal made this thread*
In the words of 1983's cult classic film War Games: "the only winning move is not to play". ::)
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Oblivion on June 12, 2013, 04:52:12 PM
It is underpowered, dude. The question simply is, can/will the developers be able to port their next-gen games to the Wii U and have it still be function/comparable.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Soren on June 12, 2013, 04:59:28 PM
If all I'm going to be playing on it is "Yoshi"(which is insanely addictive!) then I'll venture to say it's overpowered. But I'm pretty sure anything developers can do with PS4Xbone they'll be able to adequately port their games to Wii U. If the price is right.
But seriously guys, play Yoshi. It's well worth the 30 cents.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2013, 05:21:10 PM
Compared to PS4/One, yes, it is. Then again, compared to high end PC, PS4/One are as well.
It sounds silly to call Wii U underpowered when you see what it's capable of.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 12, 2013, 06:01:18 PM
All that matters is if it is capable of handling multiplatform games for the PC/PS4/XB1. If it is not then it is underpowered. If it is, then it's fine. The proof is in what happens, if we actually get those games or not.
That's all that matters. Do I get the games or does the hardware prevent that from happening? I didn't give a damn what was under the hood of the Wii. All I noticed was that damn near every game that came out for the PS3 and Xbox 360 did NOT come to the Wii because the Wii couldn't handle it. That's why it mattered, not because I get it up for clock speeds and bits.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Agent-X- on June 12, 2013, 06:11:04 PM
Technically, I suppose the answer is a simple yes. There is more processing power and memory for those systems. I'm not sure that it matters as far as the games are concerned. Those systems have a lot more load balancing to worry about due to the multi-threaded features running in the background.
Graphically, the Wii U is going to stand pretty close. Isn't that what matters? The GPU of the Wii U is apparently really good. Early on, the technical limitations were a concern because the Wii U SDK did not make full use of the dual core CPU. Frankly, nothing on the Wii U out of the box was utilizing both cores. The CPU is not some great bottleneck like it was feared to be. If you consider what that one core was doing, it was playing COD nearly on par with the Xbox 360. Now the performance benefits of full use of the CPU are coming to light and the Wii U's overall results are something really close to what PS4 is believed to be, strictly speaking as far as gaming is concerned.
Graphically, this system should be just fine as far as "next-gen" games are concerned. Where it matters most, the Wii U has memory and GPU to stand on.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: pokepal148 on June 12, 2013, 06:21:15 PM
All that matters is if it is capable of handling multiplatform games for the PC/PS4/XB1. If it is not then it is underpowered. If it is, then it's fine. The proof is in what happens, if we actually get those games or not.
Then the PS Vita is underpowered i guess, by your logic.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 12, 2013, 06:23:31 PM
All that matters is if it is capable of handling multiplatform games for the PC/PS4/XB1. If it is not then it is underpowered. If it is, then it's fine. The proof is in what happens, if we actually get those games or not.
Then the PS Vita is underpowered i guess, by your logic.
Handhelds are in a completely different technical category than consoles. The Vita is capable of handling multiplatform ports from 3DS, which is its primary competition. It can also do its own far more technically impressive games as well, so if anything Vita is overpowered.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Agent-X- on June 12, 2013, 06:39:56 PM
This needs to be put out into the open. A single CPU core in the Wii U A much-limited Wii U CPU (thanks to the SDK) was adequate for Assassin's Creed III and COD: Black Ops 2. While both games were at times graphically "superior" (shaders + texture rendering) to their PS3/360 counterparts, it was shown that at times framerates were not always steady. Nevertheless, a game such as Black Ops 2 ran adequately on just one Wii U CPU core the Wii U's CPU in spite of the complications.
I've heard just about every sort of uninformed claim when it comes to the Wii U hardware. A sizable chunk of gamers actually believe the Wii U is not even fully on par with the PS3 and 360. It only has a Dual Core CPU. The 360 has a Triple Core CPU, doesn't it? When you do direct comparison of the launch games, it also seems pretty reasonable to conclude that the CPU might not be quite on par with the 360's. However, that thought is going to land square on its face with more of the CPU available for use now.
All indications are that the PS4 has also placed less emphasis on the CPU and more emphasis on the GPU--they learned from a pretty hefty mistake they made with the PS3. Moreover, it will be interesting to see how much CPU is actually guaranteed for gaming in the PS4 and Xbox One. Considering how much behind-the-scenes features are being promised on Xbox, I doubt its gaming potential is greatly ahead of a dedicated gaming machine like the Wii U.
amiright?
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: pokepal148 on June 12, 2013, 06:51:30 PM
also MGS3 never came to the PC(not even with HD Collection), by that same logic the PC is underpowered compared to a PS2
The issue is there are many reasons why a game might not come to the system. saying its underpowered just happens to look better for the company then saying, "we can't get this kind of game to sell to that system's audience so we won't even bother"
@agent-X- the version of the story i heard was there are 3 cores but that all 3 were underclocked(even compared to that 1.2-something benchmark that has since increased in the may update) and that almost all 3 could only get two of the cores working in time to meat their deadlines
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: shingi_70 on June 12, 2013, 06:59:59 PM
The best looking game on the system is Super Metroid so.........
On a more serious note its not only underpowered but like the Wii it lacks the proper architecture to make porting an easy job in the first place. (going with Power PC instead of X86).
The lack of the multitasking features features make the One a worse system in my eyes. Hearing the podcast crew talk about the DLC buying experience for Zen Pinball 2 showed me as my last gen system doesn't have those problems at all.
Plus I really wish the Wii U was capable of doing this (http://i.minus.com/ibbeo16gg9YtGv.gif)
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Agent-X- on June 12, 2013, 07:06:49 PM
pokepal, you are right. I had to venture over to Neogaf for a refresher. There are three cores in Espresso CPU. The story I recall regarding launch window development was that one full core was unavailable for use through the SDK. I don't know why I kept thinking it was a dual core CPU, but I'm guess it's because initially Nintendo seemed to be indicating that one full core was intended for system use.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: pokepal148 on June 12, 2013, 07:22:39 PM
but like the Wii it lacks the proper architecture to make porting an easy job in the first place. (going with Power PC instead of X86).
the PS3 had cell, if what i'm hearing is correct cell is much more difficult to work with. however this is a fair issue but i feel it can be tackled by nintendo working with publishers to create some solution for this.
but even then just because its Power PC does not mean it is underpowered.
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The lack of the multitasking features features make the One a worse system in my eyes.
wait.. what...? Did you typo here because that makes no sense. besides everything you would really need from a GAMING system is there. we have background downloads, we have a pretty nice web browser, i believe TVii can be run that way, you have miiverse(could be a little quicker booting up imo)
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Hearing the podcast crew talk about the DLC buying experience for Zen Pinball 2 showed me as my last gen system doesn't have those problems at all.
You see kids, that is something called a software issue. it has nothing to do with how powerful the system is as much as how well the Wii U eshop is set up.not that it is perfectly well set up
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: ymeegod on June 12, 2013, 07:40:52 PM
Actually the WII U GPU is still limited to DX 10.1 (opengl 3.2ish). Square Enix was just talking about it during KHIII and why the WII U was excluded from the multiplatform title. Square stated the game was already 3+ years in the making and it was using DX11 as the base.
As for your statement, Yebis 2 is a post-processing effects tool (used for special lighting effects ect.) but the square engine itself is DX11 so no the wii u can't run it.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: shingi_70 on June 12, 2013, 07:45:43 PM
I'll admit calling the Wii U underpowered was Hyperbole, but it plays into a mindset and causes for a narrative which is arguably more dangerous than the actual reality.Also Ram would play a huge part of it right? I mean John Blow says the witness uses 5GB of RAM already and the One/PS4 dev kits used 4GB irrc Cell was hard to develop for which is why the system got late ports and inferior versions of games thus far.The problem with Power PC is less of being hard to develop for and more the other three platforms are so similar (X86 across the board) is it possible for developers to take time out for a Wii U version. Personally i' of the mind where as long as the PS3/360 exists this shouldn't be a fucking problem at all. In the case of One/PS4 it should be easy to farm a port out to another studio. I mean Titanfall is being made for PC/One, yet EA has another studio porting a 360 version of the game.
Sorry about the typo but I mean't the Wii U lacking those types of features makes it a poorer console in my eyes. While its true that the Wii U OS had the features you mention, alot of the implementation seems to be more reactive instead of an evolution. Probablt just first world problems complaining about the speed but microsoft and Sony showing how seamless the OS and application/Games software makes it look dated already. Also isn't it partly hardware since having 1-2's reserved for the OS software is why Sony/MS can get this type of stuff happening. A few of it is software and I guess I have to patient as Nintendo isn't a non game software company and this gen is its first big foray into this territory.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2013, 07:58:05 PM
From what little Square Enix showed of Kingdom Hearts III, I didn't get the impression that it was anything Wii U couldn't handle.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: ThePerm on June 12, 2013, 08:14:19 PM
the direct x thing though....Wii U and Wii run their own version of OpenGL from what I understand, so the thing to do is port the features to the other console, which is going to take some work.
The system is not underpowered. If it can run Mass Effect 3 and Assassins Creed, and the Crysis Engine then it is perfectly capable. Mass Effect 3 and Assassins Creed are last generation, however I'm goign to say they are the threshhold between last generation and this generation.
was looking for a watchdogs video, and this guy covers it realistically.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 12, 2013, 08:38:36 PM
Here's my problem with all this talk about the Wii U having "secret cores" that aren't "unlocked yet" for use in games: I've been hearing talk about the secret technical power hidden within Nintendo hardware for decades, and it never results in anything noteworthy. The closest we got was on the N64 when Nintendo did a hardware patch with the Expansion Pak, and that resulted in what...a half dozen games that actually took advantage of it (and some of those were worse with the pak, like Konami's Castlevania games)?
Let's say for a moment that the Wii U doesSOMEHOW have the power of a PS4 or Xbone inside it, locked away for reasons only known to Iwata: no one will ever make a game on the Wii U that actually uses it, because the damn thing doesn't sell and Nintendo is never interested in making technically impressive games on their consoles. You'll occasionally get your Retro Studios or Monoliths that have more than utter disinterest in showing off console specs, but Nintendo overall just wants to make the same, assembly line cartoony games that look pretty much the same on any console. So unless Nintendo starts selling consoles and starts getting 3rd parties involved, you will never see a game on the Wii U that looks as good as what the PS4 is launching with right now, even if all this talk about Nintendo's "Secret Plan to Fight Irrelevance" is true.
The Wii U has some good-looking games. The Wii U willhave some good-looking games in the future because Nintendo is skilled at using strong art to cover-up bad technical specs, but you're only lying to yourself if you actually believe that the Wii U is going to be able to keep up with the next-generation consoles on a technical level.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2013, 08:59:13 PM
It's a sad world we live in when a console as powerful as Wii U is considered to have "bad technical specs." It's only underpowered when you compare it to more powerful hardware and there will ALWAYS be something better. Like I said earlier PS4/One are already outclassed by the best PC has to offer today. It'll be even worse in five months. This race to the top is so F-ing silly. What do you get out of it?
Empty pockets.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 12, 2013, 09:03:10 PM
It's a sad world we live in when a console as powerful as Wii U is considered to have "bad technical specs." It's only underpowered when you compare it to more powerful hardware and there will ALWAYS be something better. Like I said earlier PS4/One are already outclassed by the best PC has to offer today. It'll be even worse in five months. This race to the top is so F-ing silly. What do you get out of it?
Empty pockets.
For all intents and purposes, Nintendo has yet to show anything on the Wii U that can't be done on the 360 and PS3, hardware that is 8 years old now. So yeah, until Nintendo shows differently, all appearances show the Wii U tech to be pretty terrible. You can point to this or that number from the spec sheet, but the software is what gives that meaning. Right now, the software makes it look on part with 8 year old consoles.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2013, 09:05:44 PM
I don't think you understood that post at all.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 12, 2013, 09:14:13 PM
You were complaining that people like me were calling the Wii U's specs "bad", and then went on a rant about the mad race for the top of the spec charts, which consoles will never do against PCs. Here's the thing, though: 8 year old specs are bad. It would be nice to live in a world where technical progress can just stagnate for 2 decades and everyone's happy, but that's not how our civilization works. When my computer is 7-8 years old, I generally replace it because it's starting to not be able to do what I need it do to.
And PC gaming can go **** itself.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: lolmonade on June 12, 2013, 09:19:53 PM
The real question is really "should it matter that the Wii U is Underpowered compared to PS4/Xbox One?", which the answer to is "not really". While the PS4 & Xbox One E3 conferences made the Wii U seem antiquated, it's clear that the 3rd party developers are still supporting the PS3 & Xbox 360, which you can assume the Wii U is at least as powerful as, and yet several publishers are abandoning ship on the Wii U.
I think at this point, it's an obvious case of a business not being able to justify the investment in a port of these games simply because there isn't a large enough install base to take a risk in making one only for it to not even recoup the cost of making it. People like to play the game of blaming publishers for screwing over the Wii U, but if Nintendo can't make a compelling case for owning one yet, why the hell should it be their responsibility to do so while taking on that risk?
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2013, 09:23:55 PM
You were complaining that people like me were calling the Wii U's specs "bad", and then went on a rant about the mad race for the top of the spec charts, which consoles will never do against PCs. Here's the thing, though: 8 year old specs are bad. It would be nice to live in a world where technical progress can just stagnate for 2 decades and everyone's happy, but that's not how our civilization works. When my computer is 7-8 years old, I generally replace it because it's starting to not be able to do what I need it do to.
It was hardly a rant.
Technical progress may not stagnate, but game design certainly seems to. That's not necessarily a bad thing. There's only so much you can do with basics of a racing game, for example. I don't understand why people are so hung up on specs when games aren't taking advantage of them outside of graphics and even then, they don't leagues better like they used to due to diminishing returns.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: pokepal148 on June 12, 2013, 09:42:53 PM
It's a sad world we live in when a console as powerful as Wii U is considered to have "bad technical specs." It's only underpowered when you compare it to more powerful hardware and there will ALWAYS be something better. Like I said earlier PS4/One are already outclassed by the best PC has to offer today. It'll be even worse in five months. This race to the top is so F-ing silly. What do you get out of it?
Empty pockets.
Isn't that technology in a nutshell? I mean for the longest time I was an android fanboy during the Froyo/Gingerbread/Honeycomb years and I burned out fast becuase the user experience was horrid and companies kept pushing specs to be different. I end up burning out hard and it wasn't till Jellybean that I came back and even now I'm deep into the mobile game as I once was.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: shingi_70 on June 12, 2013, 10:39:04 PM
For all intents and purposes, Nintendo has yet to show anything on the Wii U that can't be done on the 360 and PS3,
and what makes you so knowledgeable on the matters of what the ps3/360 can do.
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And PC gaming can go **** itself.
Well the PS4/One have barley showed anything that couldn't be done on Current gen consoles so I guess the same goes for the Wii U by proxy.
So far the only three things to really wow me were Ryse, Quantum Break, and that Quantic Dream tech demo. Out of those three Ryse was the only one that made me think that couldn't be down on current Gen hardware and that turned into QTE's all day every day. (Quantic ream doesn't count as its not a game)
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on June 12, 2013, 11:19:36 PM
Lets not pretend for one second that the Wii U has "secret cores" and is magically as powerful as the XBox One or PS4. It doesn't and it isn't. Let's not pretend for one second that the XBox One and PS4 are not immensely more powerful than 360, PS3, and Wii U. They are.
Can the Wii U do more than the XBox 360 and PS3 - probably, but they came out 7 and 6 years before the Wii U, respectively.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Kytim89 on June 12, 2013, 11:26:31 PM
Is the Wii U under powered? In a way, yes, when compared to its future competition. Is it under supported? Definitely, and a whole lot of its shortcomings could be bypassed if the laziness that permeates the industry were to disappear.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Mannypon on June 12, 2013, 11:29:35 PM
There is no such "secret core", I think that's a story from a Neogaf insider (he's trusted on that site, mod approved, take it or leave it) that has been twisted. The insider had claimed that with the first dev kits, developers were having an issue where 1 core was not being utilized and they weren't even aware of it. As dev kits matured, the issue was resolved but supposedly some launch games suffered from this. Again, this is all from what I've read in the technical discussion threads at Neogaf. I tend to believe SOME of the members there as that site seems to be extremely tough on rumor mongering and people making claims out of the blue. A mod confirmed this poster's credentials supposedly. Again, take it or leave it.
As for WiiU compared to the other 2, I'll take the general consensus that I've seen from the many frequent tech threads I've lurked on. What I've come to understand as a good comparison is PC gaming now where a game can run on low or med specs (WiiU) and can also run on high specs (PS4/Xbone). PS4/Xbone games can and should be able to run on WiiU as long as some features are lowered, res dropped, and framerates adjusted. The bigger question will always be whether publishers will want to fund the amount of money into actually doing the work. That's a whole other story/thread.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Jabs on June 12, 2013, 11:49:40 PM
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The problem with Power PC is less of being hard to develop for and more the other three platforms are so similar (X86 across the board) is it possible for developers to take time out for a Wii U version.
PowerPC isn't a difficult architecture to work with (one of the easiest really), that said there are some minor issues that have to be overcome when porting from x86 to the PPC ISA. For the most part however developers don't really see the underlying hardware anymore, most code is so abstracted from the chips so much that it doesn't even factor in to how the code is developed.
I know of some developers on PS4 have ported their Cell SPE code directly onto the x86 CPU without any major issues but thats because it was C based code to begin with.
Wii U's issue is that if a game is being built for the bigger machines, scaling back the games to the lower platforms in terms of CPU grunt and memory (which is a much bigger issue) is a costly and time involving effort. Most developers would rather focus on a single project with set high targets rather than having a limbo bar to crawl under while trying to keep the other guys happy.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Soren on June 12, 2013, 11:50:48 PM
What Mannypon said. Hey, I even managed to find the Gaf post.
One of the Wii U core wasn't used throughout the development of several launch window games. It's an "engine related issue", meaning it's the way the teams behind those titles have programmed their engine for the Wii U CPU. It wasn't widespread, not universally seen on all the games, but witnessed on at least a few of those. The developers found and resolved this problem mere months/weeks prior release, and most of them gained a nice increase in FPS. It's one the origin of the huge boost in framerate i reported a long time ago that some studios managed to get (from 30 fps to 60 fps for some games), along with new dev kits, etc.You heard it right, a whole core of the Wii U CPU wasn't put in use for most of the dev cycle of several titles, before it was fixed.It's rather telling either: - on the crucial need of studios, accustomed to the HD-Twins framework, to adapt their code to the Wii U specifics - or the perfectible state of documentation/dev kit/SDK's at the time - or [insert your own conclusion/guess derived from this info]
Funny how the only people talking about "secret cores" in this thread are the ones who believe the Wii U is "immensely" underpowered to the PS4/Xbone. Even though the data coming out is starting to show us that gap is nowhere near as huge as those people think it is.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Jabs on June 13, 2013, 12:05:34 AM
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Funny how the only people talking about "secret cores" in this thread are the ones who believe the Wii U is "immensely" underpowered to the PS4/Xbone. Even though the data coming out is starting to show us that gap is nowhere near as huge as those people think it is.
Funnily enough that's just it Wii U isn't that far behind especially compared with the gap between Wii and the X360/Ps3. CPU wise it's only roughly 5-7 times slower than X1/Ps4 and GPU wise it's somewhere between (based of estimates here) 2.5/5 times slower than X1 and 3.5/7 times slower than PS4. Mind you running most of these games at 720p 30fps is going to close the apparent gap a lot more than you would expect.
Compared with the Wii to X360/Ps3 where the CPU gap was about 20-30 times as much and 20-25 times on the GPU side combined with diminishing returns in visuals and we are still set to see some great stuff form the platform. Just look at Monolith's new "X" title to see what I mean.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Oblivion on June 13, 2013, 12:15:55 AM
Once again, X is leagues behind Infamous Second Son, Destiny, Titanfall, etc. I mean, lookat the close up of that Shulk-lookalike in the first trailer. God-awful, right?
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Jabs on June 13, 2013, 12:22:06 AM
Yes it is behind but it's not staggeringly behind like we had last generation. It will never match what the others can do but it at least the technology decisions that have been made allow for the maximum results from a chepa machine.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Kytim89 on June 13, 2013, 12:24:43 AM
Once again, X is leagues behind Infamous Second Son, Destiny, Titanfall, etc. I mean, lookat the close up of that Shulk-lookalike in the first trailer. God-awful, right?
While those games are very pretty, if one of them fails sales wise then it is lights out for their respective developer and publisher.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Mannypon on June 13, 2013, 12:25:19 AM
Once again, X is leagues behind Infamous Second Son, Destiny, Titanfall, etc. I mean, lookat the close up of that Shulk-lookalike in the first trailer. God-awful, right?
How much would that be attributed to the budget and studio size? I'd like to think (and this is my opinion with nothing to base it on) that those Sony games are benefiting from a much larger team and even more likely a much larger budget. I don't see Nintendo throwing AAA money into X. Mainline Zelda will probably be series Nintendo may spend decent money on. Every other series including Mario, I believe, is being developed on a tight budget. The team could be as large but I think Mono is working wonders with the budget they are given. Just look at Xenoblade, the fact that they got that out of the Wii was amazing. I'm sure they weren't given 1st tier money for such games. Again, this is all my opinion. I'm sure others may see it differently.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 13, 2013, 12:26:05 AM
Funny how the only people talking about "secret cores" in this thread are the ones who believe the Wii U is "immensely" underpowered to the PS4/Xbone. Even though the data coming out is starting to show us that gap is nowhere near as huge as those people think it is.
Actually, I was just responding to the TC's belief that the Wii U somehow had more technical power in it than people thought. I believe I called bull**** on the whole "secret core" idea as just the Nintendo fanboys' way of trying to pretend the Wii U isn't immensely underpowered.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Mannypon on June 13, 2013, 12:33:09 AM
Funny how the only people talking about "secret cores" in this thread are the ones who believe the Wii U is "immensely" underpowered to the PS4/Xbone. Even though the data coming out is starting to show us that gap is nowhere near as huge as those people think it is.
Actually, I was just responding to the TC's belief that the Wii U somehow had more technical power in it than people thought. I believe I called bull**** on the whole "secret core" idea as just the Nintendo fanboys' way of trying to pretend the Wii U isn't immensely underpowered.
I think the issues everyone is having with your statements is how you come off as if your stating facts. "pretend the WiiU isn't IMMENSELY underpowered". I'll like to highlight "immensely underpowered". That is your opinion but its coming across as if you have first hand knowledge of it being a fact. Now I can agree with you on the WiiU being underpowered, that is a fact simply by looking at the specs. Immensely underpowered is a whole different story. Maybe I define "immensely" different than you but I don't think of that word when comparing the WiiU to its upcoming competition. "immensely" is something I would say was better suited when comparing the Wii to the PS360. That argument holds water. Your either giving the PS4/Xbone way too much credit or severely downplaying WiiU's technical capabilities. I know you are waiting for the WiiU to prove it to you but only time will tell on that front. If you want further detail on what's in the WiiU, I suggest reading some of the tech threads dedicated to the WiiU at Neogaf as some of the knowledgable members there have really done a lot in figuring out what the WiiU is made of.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Oblivion on June 13, 2013, 12:43:30 AM
Being underpowered is not a matter of opinion. It is, or it isn't. Simple as that. And like it has already been established... it is.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Kytim89 on June 13, 2013, 12:45:44 AM
The Wii U being under powered does not bother me as much as the price and used game lock out of the XBone.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: shingi_70 on June 13, 2013, 12:46:29 AM
You be the judge.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Kytim89 on June 13, 2013, 12:52:07 AM
Square Enix would have to sell more than five million copies of Final Fantasy XV to be profitable. ;)
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Oblivion on June 13, 2013, 12:52:54 AM
Source? Because I can almost guarantee that to be false.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Kytim89 on June 13, 2013, 12:55:21 AM
Source? Because I can almost guarantee that to be false.
Perhaps you have forgotten the recent news that the Tomb Raider reboot did not meet their expectations. Also, I was being sarcastic.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Jabs on June 13, 2013, 01:00:46 AM
The next generation is expensive its a simple as that. Most developers can't survive now with a game selling less than a million copies simply because they lose so much cash on them. Budgets are set to double at least for these high end machines, sales expectations are going to be higher than ever.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Kytim89 on June 13, 2013, 01:03:06 AM
The next generation is expensive its a simple as that. Most developers can't survive now with a game selling less than a million copies simply because they lose so much cash on them. Budgets are set to double at least for these high end machines, sales expectations are going to be higher than ever.
I am not the Final Fantasy loyalist that I used to be in the past. The series has lost its teeth and I do not see future games being profitable enough for SE to avoid major financial difficulties.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Jabs on June 13, 2013, 01:10:19 AM
I am not the Final Fantasy loyalist that I used to be in the past. The series has lost its teeth and I do not see future games being profitable enough for SE to avoid major financial difficulties.
Personally I think we will be seeing a few high profile failures before some more sane games start to come along. Higher end hardware doesn't require a higher budget, it's just the choice most publishers/developers go down to stay competitive.
If the competition is scared enough by the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars then we shall see a much more reasonable set of titles coming out for all platforms. Publishers are still out trying to find the limits of what they can grab at.[size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 13, 2013, 01:51:57 AM
The next generation is expensive its a simple as that. Most developers can't survive now with a game selling less than a million copies simply because they lose so much cash on them. Budgets are set to double at least for these high end machines, sales expectations are going to be higher than ever.
I am not the Final Fantasy loyalist that I used to be in the past. The series has lost its teeth and I do not see future games being profitable enough for SE to avoid major financial difficulties.
Considering you obviously don't own a non-Nintendo system (it's the only logical conclusion considering all you ever do is whine and speculate over games coming to Nintendo platforms), I am really interested to know how you "know" from your own experience that the series has "lost its teeth". I've played the HD Final Fantasies, and while they have their problems, I'll still take them over that piece of **** known as Final Fantasy 12, the nostalgia-fest (with little else noteworthy about it) known as FF 9, the abysmal FF 8, and the extremely overrated FF 7.
From where I stand, people hate on the 13 games because they don't like change, and they aren't willing to accept that there can be different interpretations of the core Final Fantasy concepts. Hell, I even like the battle system, for pretty much the same reason I prefer Ogre Battle 64 to Tactics Ogre: I like the focus on managing the flow of battle.
Yes, I like Final Fantasy 10. It's probably my favorite Final Fantasy game.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Oblivion on June 13, 2013, 01:54:11 AM
PREACH IT TO THE CHOIR BROODWARS
FFX is my favorite Final Fantasy, and probably my favorite game of all time. That probably due to it being my first console game, however. ;)
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 13, 2013, 01:58:23 AM
FFX is my favorite Final Fantasy, and probably my favorite game of all time. That probably due to it being my first console game, however. ;)
I'm really looking forward to FF X HD, hopefully coming out by the end of the year. From the looks of what Square-Enix has released, they've replaced so many models they've practically remade the game. And S-E just confirmed today that the game will have the International Edition content that was rumored to be DLC.
And don't ask about X-2. I tried to get through that game a few years ago, and it was not a particularly pleasant experience. ;)
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Oblivion on June 13, 2013, 02:04:30 AM
I actually loved X-2, simply because that it was still one of my first console games (I was basically a handheld dude for the longest time) and I was a horny little kid. :P
And yeah, I'm pressed by the remaking of all the character models. To me, that's much more than just an HD rerelease so I don't care how long it takes for them to finish it.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Kytim89 on June 13, 2013, 02:23:35 AM
I always thought that FF X and its sequel were two of the worst games ever produced.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 13, 2013, 02:30:12 AM
I always thought that FF X and its sequel were two of the worst games ever produced.
Have you even played a PS2 before? :P:
I used to own a PS2 and plethora of games for it and the PS1. At one time I was a devoted Sony fan biy and then I started to like Nintendo games, and third parties that supported them. As for not liking FF X and X-2, I played and beat the first game, and thought the battle system, up grade system, and overall quality of the game was not all that good. Final Fantasy 12 was far superior.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Adrock on June 13, 2013, 07:03:09 AM
I've played the HD Final Fantasies, and while they have their problems, I'll still take them over that piece of **** known as Final Fantasy 7, the nostalgia-fest (with little else noteworthy about it) known as FF 7, the abysmal FF 7, and the extremely overrated FF 7.
fixed :D
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 13, 2013, 05:35:29 PM
The concept of a "secret core" is silly mostly because the hardware is still in every Wii U so it would be part of the manufacturing cost. Why would any company pay a higher manufacturing cost for something they're not using? What advantage is gained in secretly having better specs and not telling anyone about it?
The Wii U is thus far following a pretty similar blueprint as the Wii. It's had the Miis, it's got Mario, it's got "Wii" in the title, it's got a gimmick controller. The games don't look all that cutting edge. They didn't look cutting edge on the Wii because the hardware was underpowered. Nintendo also has once again been coy about the specs. So either they're doing that to hide how lousy the specs are or they're really out-of-touch and don't realize how potentially damaging all this is and how it could all be solved by just revealing the specs. They've got third parties crapping on their hardware and they STILL don't release the specs publicly if doing so would establish that all this is overblown? This isn't just talk, third parties are pulling support. Statements about how this hardware is no good and that engine can't be done is very damaging. The third party support has taken a nosedive and the console isn't selling.
Nintendo has multiple fires going on at once and doesn't put this one out? They can't. It's obvious they can't or they would. Nintendo released marketing material detailing very specifically that the Wii U is a different console from the Wii because there was some confusion and the felt that maybe it was hurting sales. Would not the image of the Wii U being old-ass last gen hardware also hurt sales. Would not Nintendo make an effort to correct that image if they could? If the Wii U was truly not underpowered then there wouldn't be multiple accounts from devs saying that it is and you could go and look up the real specs delivered straight from Nintendo themselves as you could with every console they released prior to the Wii (ie: they stopped releasing specs when they became something to hide).
Want another example? MS had all the negative rumours about locking out used games. That could be very damaging and yet they never ever said "of course not! That's ridiculous!" because it was true. That's why they wouldn't comment on it, that's why they're coy and obtuse about it now - it's shitty and it's true and they're hoping you don't notice. If you're being coy about something when being honest would end the discussion immediately, you have something to hide. "I won't dignify that with a response" means "yes that thing you're accusing me of is 100% true."
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Mannypon on June 13, 2013, 05:45:29 PM
I find it amusing how people are quick to label the Gamepad as a gimmick controller when the PS4's remote is, IMO, more of a gimmick than the Gamepad. They both provide tradition control inputs but the Gamepad's touch screen provides so many more uses and implementations that I wouldn't go so far as calling it a gimmick. The PS4's touchpad is a gimmick IMO, its a feature that will never really serve any legitimate purpose and it has no way near as much as potential as the Gamepads. Whether these potentials are eventually realized is another story but that's not what I'm discussing here. Some may say the fact that the Gamepad provides off TV play warrants its existence in and of itself where others will want more. Regardless though, I don't see the Gamepad as a gimmick as the experience it provided with ZombiU is unique and worth while IMO and the off TV play feature is the other unique aspect of it from the other end of the spectrum.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Adrock on June 13, 2013, 06:19:43 PM
Sony originally locked the full speed of the PSP CPU at 266 MHz before unlocking the full 333 MHz like two years after release with a firmware update. I don't think Sony ever officially explained why they locked the CPU, but most speculated it was due to battery life concerns.
There was also a rumor (I don't remember if it was confirmed) that Nintendo did something similar with 3DS and unlocked a second CPU for 25% more processing. I'd imagine battery life being a concern here as well. I believe this rumor also mentioned something about Nintendo figuring out a way of handling stereoscopic 3D which would reduce the strain on the CPU for more processing power (of course, not using 3D entirely would help out even more).
If this additional core thing is true, the battery life explanation doesn't really work here. I guess the dev kit reasoning works. Even so, I doubt it would open up Wii U to Super Saiyan levels of power like people are making it seem.
Anyway, Wii U is underpowered compared to PS4/One. However, I'm pushing the shenanigans broom on anyone acting like good games can't still be made on it. The only thing many of these companies are improving is the graphics. They could use that extra processing on better AI and whatnot, but they're probably going right for graphics because they learned nothing about the last seven years.
I wish Sony and Microsoft weren't launching successors later this year. Or if they insist, sell hardware at a minimal loss. No one would feel the pressure to take advantage of processing power that isn't available. It's not good for the industry to keep pushing expensive technology when even the largest publishers are struggling to keep up with it. As consumers, we don't see the effects of these losses until companies close shop and we just won't get games from them anymore. Why would anyone want that?
By the way, the GamePad is a gimmick. That's not inherently bad. People just often read it that way. I love the GamePad though only games that can use it well should use it at all. Just because something is there doesn't mean it has to be forced into every game.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 13, 2013, 06:20:07 PM
I find it amusing how people are quick to label the Gamepad as a gimmick controller when the PS4's remote is, IMO, more of a gimmick than the Gamepad. They both provide tradition control inputs but the Gamepad's touch screen provides so many more uses and implementations that I wouldn't go so far as calling it a gimmick. The PS4's touchpad is a gimmick IMO, its a feature that will never really serve any legitimate purpose and it has no way near as much as potential as the Gamepads. Whether these potentials are eventually realized is another story but that's not what I'm discussing here. Some may say the fact that the Gamepad provides off TV play warrants its existence in and of itself where others will want more. Regardless though, I don't see the Gamepad as a gimmick as the experience it provided with ZombiU is unique and worth while IMO and the off TV play feature is the other unique aspect of it from the other end of the spectrum.
Well, to me what makes the GamePad more problematic is its sheer size. The thing's so damn big that it actually impedes functionality in my case b/c the buttons & triggers are harder to reach. And every single game just HAS to use that damn screen for something. You can't turn it off while using the controller. The gimmicky features stand out more. Meanwhile, with the Dualshock 4, the gimmick is a small touch pad with click functionality slapped onto more or less an existing Dualshock 3. It's a Dualshock 3 with new functionality that both developers and players can easily choose to ignore. The touch pad is a pure gimmick, without question, but it's tiny and a gimmick you can ignore so it stands out less.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Oblivion on June 13, 2013, 06:25:23 PM
The buttons are NOT harder to reach. I know you hate the system, but you should probably spend some more tie with the Gamepad to remind yourself how good it actually is.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 13, 2013, 06:32:16 PM
The buttons are NOT harder to reach. I know you hate the system, but you should probably spend some more tie with the Gamepad to remind yourself how good it actually is.
My, you love to jump to conclusions. I don't "hate" the Wii U. It's simply a console that's been so completely irrelevant that I don't even keep it hooked up (I keep it on a shelf near a power outlet so I can plug the unit in occasionally to use just the GamePad to download things off the eShop). That's not the same as "hate". It's "disinterest," and I've had plenty of experience with the Gamepad. It's a terrible controller that's too big with triggers that are too far apart to use at one time without completely rearranging your hand. By contrast, I can practically use the Dualshock 3 one-handed; I can easily access all buttons and triggers at one time, and it's probably 3-4 times lighter than the Gamepad. That's why I use the Pro Controller instead, which is far better.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 13, 2013, 06:41:51 PM
I don't think Sony is going to market the whole console around the touchpad. It's like the Gamecube clicky triggers - a minor update to the controller that most games won't make real use of.
But Nintendo's controller is front and center for the marketing. Oh and it's expensive. It follows the Wii model where the guts of the hardware is compromised to pay for the tech of the controller. I don't think for a second that the PS4 has been compromised to pay for the touchpad but I am damn sure of that with the Wii U. It follows the Wii philosophy where a hardware upgrade was not the key in providing a purpose for a new generation but rather a new way to control games. The Wii U is the same thing. It is nothing fancy in terms of hardware but it has this new controller that will (supposedly) introduce new gaming concepts.
I don't care if there are gimmicky and borderline useless elements on a controller provided I lose nothing. But expecting me to buy a glorified last gen console because it comes with controller gimmicks that were already demonstrated to be borderline useless years ago on the DS? Yeah then I care. Now I am losing something. I also don't like it when games I like use stupid gimmicks and are worse off for it. If shitty casual games wanted to use the DS touchscreen, whatever, the better games just used the conventional controls. Oh but Zelda had to have forced touchsreen usage and controlled like ****. Okay, NOW I have a problem with it. If Sony ruins one of their games with dumb forced touchpad usage then I'll crap on them too (like how Lair was a disaster because of forced motion control).
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Oblivion on June 13, 2013, 06:42:21 PM
The buttons are NOT harder to reach. I know you hate the system, but you should probably spend some more tie with the Gamepad to remind yourself how good it actually is.
My, you love to jump to conclusions. I don't "hate" the Wii U. It's simply a console that's been so completely irrelevant that I don't even keep it hooked up (I keep it on a shelf near a power outlet so I can plug the unit in occasionally to use just the GamePad to download things off the eShop). That's not the same as "hate". It's "disinterest," and I've had plenty of experience with the Gamepad. It's a terrible controller that's too big with triggers that are too far apart to use at one time without completely rearranging your hand. By contrast, I can practically use the Dualshock 3 one-handed; I can easily access all buttons and triggers at one time, and it's probably 3-4 times lighter than the Gamepad. That's why I use the Pro Controller instead, which is far better.
You shouldn't be using it one-handed, so that's kind of irrelevant. And considering how small I am and how small my hands are, I should be the one with issues with the Gamepad. And since I don't, it must be operator error or confirmational bias from when you hadn't gotten the Gamepad yet. If you're secretly 5'3" with tiny hands, then we may be getting somewhere.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: ShyGuy on June 13, 2013, 07:02:05 PM
Does Broodwars only have one hand? That could explain his issues with the gamepad.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Agent-X- on June 13, 2013, 07:03:15 PM
Being underpowered is not a matter of opinion. It is, or it isn't. Simple as that. And like it has already been established... it is.
Oh YOU... YOU win. Ok?
And the PS3 was underpowered last generation due to the inferior graphics card it was given. The 360 bested it.
The PS2 was underpowered as well. It was inferior to GameCube AND Xbox.
The original Playstation was also underpowered. There was no way for it to do even half the stuff the N64 did.
Can we finally put this debate to rest? The factor by which the Wii U is underpowered is far less relevant today than the storage medium capacity that hamstrung the N64 or the RAM limitations that bit the GameCube. We don't even need to dredge up the Wii's technical limitations. The Wii U simply isn't in any way, shape, or form that far behind the PS4.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: ShyGuy on June 13, 2013, 07:13:11 PM
so what is the CERTIFIED power level?
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Adrock on June 13, 2013, 07:15:57 PM
Being underpowered is not a matter of opinion. It is, or it isn't. Simple as that. And like it has already been established... it is.
Oh YOU... YOU win. Ok?
And the PS3 was underpowered last generation due to the inferior graphics card it was given. The 360 bested it.
The PS2 was underpowered as well. It was inferior to GameCube AND Xbox.
The original Playstation was also underpowered. There was no way for it to do even half the stuff the N64 did.
Can we finally put this debate to rest? The factor by which the Wii U is underpowered is far less relevant today than the storage medium capacity that hamstrung the N64 or the RAM limitations that bit the GameCube. We don't even need to dredge up the Wii's technical limitations. The Wii U simply isn't in any way, shape, or form that far behind the PS4.
Few issues with your post. I'm not sure if your first comment was sarcastic enough. Second, the PS3 technically had the most power, but very few developers besides first parties hardly ever took advantage of if due to the retarded Cell architecture.
The PS1 was technically weaker, but the N64 had the retarded cartridges that developers had to work with and made certain things difficult. Hell, certain games are still hard to emulate with today's technology because of how weird it was made.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 13, 2013, 07:51:21 PM
You all do realize that when anyone says "underpowered" they don't mean on a technicality level? The Wii to PS3 comparison was not PS2 to Gamecube it was more like PS1 to Gamecube. I'm fine with the Wii U being the PS2 of its gen. In fact that would be very conventional since it came out a year earlier. The Wii U SHOULD be less powerful than the PS4 and XB1 since they have an extra year of tech to work with. The problem is if the Wii U is more like a PS3 going against a PS4. That was the problem with the Wii so when you spout of how the NES beat the Sega Master System or PS1 beat the N64 it is complete nonsense and is not comparable at all. You're talking about a 17 year old facing an 18 year old in a fight and I'm talking about a 10 year old fighting an 18 year old.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Agent-X- on June 13, 2013, 07:58:24 PM
Being underpowered is not a matter of opinion. It is, or it isn't. Simple as that. And like it has already been established... it is.
Oh YOU... YOU win. Ok?
And the PS3 was underpowered last generation due to the inferior graphics card it was given. The 360 bested it.
The PS2 was underpowered as well. It was inferior to GameCube AND Xbox.
The original Playstation was also underpowered. There was no way for it to do even half the stuff the N64 did.
Can we finally put this debate to rest? The factor by which the Wii U is underpowered is far less relevant today than the storage medium capacity that hamstrung the N64 or the RAM limitations that bit the GameCube. We don't even need to dredge up the Wii's technical limitations. The Wii U simply isn't in any way, shape, or form that far behind the PS4.
Few issues with your post. I'm not sure if your first comment was sarcastic enough. Second, the PS3 technically had the most power, but very few developers besides first parties hardly ever took advantage of if due to the retarded Cell architecture.
The PS1 was technically weaker, but the N64 had the retarded cartridges that developers had to work with and made certain things difficult. Hell, certain games are still hard to emulate with today's technology because of how weird it was made.
Hey Oblivion, I'm sorry for directing my comment at you when it should be directed at everyone who is stating the Wii U is underpowered. The fact is that the hardware can handle less, but we're arguing semantics when it comes to discussing whether the system is underpowered compared to its competitors. It's also a fact that its competitors are expected to handle a lot more general purpose computing while also playing games (simultaneously). The Wii U isn't expected to do nearly that much. More of its hardware resources are dedicated to gaming.
I'm going to agree with your counterpoint regarding the PS3. Developers never fully realized the potential of the Cell processor. I'll contend that the PS3 had poor architectural design, and at the heart of the PS3 experience was an inferior GPU. Owning a PS3 and having owned a 360, I'm not terribly biased for either system. Frankly, I was never very impressed with the 360. I always felt that its texture rendering was starkly lacking. However, the PS3 never stood tall in FPS games. Time and again, the PS3 GPU handicapped the experience. The PS3 could not maintain the framerate or screen resolution of the 360, and therefore I am snidely stating that under the same guidelines being applied to the Wii U, the PS3 was underpowered next to the 360. No amount of Cell harnessing overcame the poor GPU.
Now, the better debate is whether the Wii U hardware is the biggest limiting factor to third party support this round. I don't believe it is. I believe Nintendo needs to clean the poop out of the bed post-launch if they want anyone to still climb into it with them. I've even thought about trying to sell my Wii U, and I know that's not going to work out well for me if I do. Still, if I had to pick between Nintendo platforms right now, the 3DS is kicking everybody's ass and taking names. It's also a big reason why I don't have a killer app for my Wii U.
**** you Nintendo!
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: ymeegod on June 13, 2013, 08:09:53 PM
"More of its hardware resources are dedicated to gaming."
:(. That's not true, 1/2 the WII U memory is for OS, not sure about it's cores but I'm guessing one core Is reserved for the OS/gamepad.
MS stated that 3GB's of ram is reserved and I'm not sure about the cores. Still since it had 8GB to begin with it's still has a higher % of resources reserved for gaming than the WII U.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Mop it up on June 13, 2013, 08:12:20 PM
I don't care either way, and in the end it won't matter much.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Kytim89 on June 13, 2013, 08:22:53 PM
I view the Wii U as a rescue ship for the gaming industry. What I mean by this is that the development costs for the PS4 and Xbone will push a lot of developers towards the Wii U due to its cheapness. Only the elites of the third party (Ubisoft, Activision, EA, Take Two, etc) will be able to afford to make top tier games for those systems. The rest will find some middle ground on the Wii U. It is what someone else said earlier in this topic, the game industry is heading for a blood bath.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: ymeegod on June 13, 2013, 08:56:17 PM
" view the Wii U as a rescue ship for the gaming industry. "
Didn't you say that about the wii as well? Developers don't have to spend money to make quality games, Minecraft comes screaming to mind but there's plenty of other examples like Demon Souls (PS3).
If I was developing a game now I wouldn't bother making an WII U game when I can target three systems (XboxOne,PS4, PC) at once since there are all x86 systems which when combined their numbers is going be a much larger user base?
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: EasyCure on June 13, 2013, 09:03:37 PM
I think with the "rescue ship" argument, the keyword that flaws your statement is "now". Those new PS4/One games look awfully pretty, and more than pretty expensive.
If they don't break even companies are going to go under and when enough go under the industry might realize that their penis measuring contest arms race is doing no good for them and scale things back..
But why does that automatically mean that those devs will be crawling to Nintendo as the cheap alternative? Well if Sony or MS DEMAND that games released on their systems be the highest of highest end, perhaps Nintendo really will be the cheap alternative where profit can be made. So in this scenario, while if you were developing a game "now" sure it makes sense to go with the over-all larger user base, but when developing that game means you'll potentially go out of business, you'll go where you can to survive.
But that's an awful lot of assumptions.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 13, 2013, 09:09:26 PM
If such a blood bath as Kytim desires were to occur, developers would run to iOS and Android before they ran to Nintendo.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Jabs on June 14, 2013, 01:30:09 AM
Quote
Sony originally locked the full speed of the PSP CPU at 266 MHz before unlocking the full 333 MHz like two years after release with a firmware update. I don't think Sony ever officially explained why they locked the CPU, but most speculated it was due to battery life concerns.
There was also a rumor (I don't remember if it was confirmed) that Nintendo did something similar with 3DS and unlocked a second CPU for 25% more processing. I'd imagine battery life being a concern here as well. I believe this rumor also mentioned something about Nintendo figuring out a way of handling stereoscopic 3D which would reduce the strain on the CPU for more processing power (of course, not using 3D entirely would help out even more).
It was most likely both where due to battery life as any titles that used these functions had limitations. On PSP Wifi/Networking had to be switched off. On 3DS the StreetPass/SpotPass Functionality is lost. Just trade offs for better speed over functionality.
Quote
If this additional core thing is true, the battery life explanation doesn't really work here. I guess the dev kit reasoning works. Even so, I doubt it would open up Wii U to Super Saiyan levels of power like people are making it seem.
I don't even think it exists simply because we haven't found anything additional on the wafers. Almost everything is accounted for internally thank to those great die shots from Chipworks, unless there is a hidden processor on the GPU (other than Starlet) then it doesn't exist. And if there is something on the GPU it must be very small and have little impact on performance.[/font]
Quote
By the way, the GamePad is a gimmick. That's not inherently bad. People just often read it that way. I love the GamePad though only games that can use it well should use it at all. Just because something is there doesn't mean it has to be forced into every game.
Gimmick is an over used word that tries to make the idea seam cheaper or less important than it really is. Like you said, it's an awesome feature but it's not a requirement.
Quote
The PS1 was technically weaker, but the N64 had the retarded cartridges that developers had to work with and made certain things difficult. Hell, certain games are still hard to emulate with today's technology because of how weird it was made.
Just talk to a developer on the N64 about the "joys" of microcoding the graphics side of N64. Step back and watch them fume with rage.
Quote
That's not true, 1/2 the WII U memory is for OS, not sure about it's cores but I'm guessing one core Is reserved for the OS/gamepad.
As far as we know the Gamepad video is encoded with dedicated hardware on the GPU, a task such as that is too slow on a CPU. That said we could still lose a core to the OS, I haven't really spoken to many developers in detail on how the Wii U works and I'm sure they wouldn't' tell me anyway. :D
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 14, 2013, 01:37:57 PM
I think the problem with this "rescue ship" idea is that Nintendo is too conservative to lead the industry. I don't just mean in terms of hardware, but in terms of making games period. Right now their favourite genre is one that went out-of-fashion over 15 years ago. They're behind the times in online gaming and they are notoriously restrictive and inflexible. With their current attitude they will just hold the industry back. Not spending to oblivion is the ONLY thing they have going for them right now. You can push game design forward with lesser hardware but Nintendo is not the one doing that.
I really don't like the approach that ANY of the big three are taking. Sony's the least offensive but they're still on the "massive high budget hit or bankrupting failure" model which will just make gaming more conservative as the stakes are too big to take risks. They're all lumbering dinosaurs that will either kill the industry or get wiped out by a new generation.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Adrock on June 14, 2013, 01:44:43 PM
Who is fit to lead the industry? Nintendo is the company with weird ideas. Microsoft is the company with bad ideas. And Sony is the company with no ideas. It's not all black and white, but as it stands, that's pretty close.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 14, 2013, 01:50:06 PM
I really don't like the approach that ANY of the big three are taking. Sony's the least offensive but they're still on the "massive high budget hit or bankrupting failure" model which will just make gaming more conservative as the stakes are too big to take risks. They're all lumbering dinosaurs that will either kill the industry or get wiped out by a new generation.
I would have to disagree there. Yes, Sony does dump a ridiculous amount of money into their AAA releases, but they also bankroll Indie; experimental ; and so-called "mid-tier" projects like Sly Cooper: Thieves in Time; Journey; and the upcoming Rain. They have a good variety, which is one of the reasons I really like their software library.
As for Nintendo, I like platformers. I think it's sad that the genre's been relegated to the Indie domain and the occasional nostalgia trip. I just wish platformers weren't the primary and sometimes seemingly only games Nintendo makes. That's why I've been saying for years that Nintendo needed to expand its studios in the West and get developers working on games that EAD Tokyo wouldn't make.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 14, 2013, 01:52:51 PM
Right now their favourite genre is one that went out-of-fashion over 15 years ago.
New Super Mario Bros. Wii - 27.61 million Super Mario Galaxy - 11.72 million Super Mario 3D Land - 8.29 million New Super Mario Bros. 2 - 6.42 million Super Mario Galaxy 2 - 6.36 million New Super Mario Bros. U - 2.15 million
Yes, totally out of fashion. -_- It's also a tiny percentage of their games, it's just they get the most media attention.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: ThePerm on June 15, 2013, 03:12:53 PM
those numbers also show diminishing returns...but you have to give u and 2 credit for being on new systems with small install bases. I kinda feel Nintendo gets fucked though. Sony's system is only $399 while Nintendo's is $299 and ati is giving them a much crappier chip. Considering Nintendo and ATI's longstanding and very profitable business relationship you would think they would give Nintendo the deal.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: pokepal148 on June 15, 2013, 03:33:33 PM
i predict by january that the basic set is gone and the deluxe set will be dropped to 269.99$ at the most with things like the console stand and the noncharging gamepad stand taken out.
i also expect nintendoland to be either preinstalled or removed from the bundle and sold separately with a remote plus bundled
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Evan_B on June 15, 2013, 03:35:21 PM
Who is fit to lead the industry? Nintendo is the company with weird ideas. Microsoft is the company with bad ideas. And Sony is the company with no ideas. It's not all black and white, but as it stands, that's pretty close.
There we have it, ladies and gentlemen.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Oblivion on June 15, 2013, 03:40:00 PM
I'm fairly certain no one in the industry has good ideas.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: broodwars on June 15, 2013, 04:04:08 PM
those numbers also show diminishing returns...but you have to give u and 2 credit for being on new systems with small install bases. I kinda feel Nintendo gets fucked though. Sony's system is only $399 while Nintendo's is $299 and ati is giving them a much crappier chip. Considering Nintendo and ATI's longstanding and very profitable business relationship you would think they would give Nintendo the deal.
ATI's giving Nintendo a "crappier chip" because Nintendo commissioned a crappier chip from them. The Wii U is exactly what Nintendo asked for. It's overpriced at $350 because Nintendo just had to have that stupid, expensive, gimmicky GamePad. It's just like how the PS4 is $100 cheaper than the Xbone because they removed the expensive PS Move camera from the box. Maybe if Nintendo had made the Pro controller the primary Wii U controller & made the Gamepad the ridiculously expensive add-on, the Wii U could've been priced at something more reasonable. But Nintendo wanted its gimmick center stage, and the price is where it is.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 15, 2013, 04:27:19 PM
those numbers also show diminishing returns...but you have to give u and 2 credit for being on new systems with small install bases.
The only diminished returns is Galaxy 2 selling less then Galaxy 1. But 3D Land is already higher then Galaxy 2 and on its way to surpassing Galaxy 1, hence why we're getting 3D World instead of a Galaxy 3 for the Wii U's 3D Mario. Plus you already said NSMB 2 and U have only been on the market for a short time so no one can really compare them to the other NSMB that were out for years. NSMB DS and Wii didn't sell those 27 million + in less then a year.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Mop it up on June 15, 2013, 08:15:13 PM
And even in the case of the Super Mario Galaxy games, the first one came out over two years before the second, and has been sold at $20 for a while now, whereas the sequel is still $50.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: ThePerm on June 16, 2013, 12:22:45 AM
the question is which 2 am I talking about?
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: shingi_70 on June 16, 2013, 10:05:45 AM
If the PS4/one are only home to ex[ensive big budget industry killing games than why did Sony show off a big push for indies at E3.
Plus you can expect costs to go down on the third party side as they from using thigs like Unreal/Cryengine too in house engines (nearly every EA game was either Frostbite or Ignite.)
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Sarail on June 16, 2013, 11:02:27 AM
those numbers also show diminishing returns...but you have to give u and 2 credit for being on new systems with small install bases. I kinda feel Nintendo gets fucked though. Sony's system is only $399 while Nintendo's is $299 and ati is giving them a much crappier chip. Considering Nintendo and ATI's longstanding and very profitable business relationship you would think they would give Nintendo the deal.
ATI's giving Nintendo a "crappier chip" because Nintendo commissioned a crappier chip from them. The Wii U is exactly what Nintendo asked for. It's overpriced at $350 because Nintendo just had to have that stupidly fun, somewhat overpriced (in Japan), full-of-innovative-ideas-if-devs-would-push-themselves-to-tap-in-to-it GamePad. It's just like how the PS4 is $100 cheaper than the Xbone because they removed the expensive PS Move camera from the box. Maybe if Nintendo had made the Pro controller the primary Wii U controller & made the Gamepad the ridiculously expensive add-on, the Wii U could've been priced at something more reasonable. But Nintendo wanted its gimmick center stage, and the price is where it is.
Corrected. Quit being so freaking negative, brood. Geez.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: shingi_70 on June 16, 2013, 11:13:16 AM
Question? Does power really matter when the bet games at the show looked like this?
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 16, 2013, 11:58:32 AM
For many games, Wii U support would be relatively easy to include. The issue right now isn't a matter of power, it's about sales. If publishers were more confident that their games would sell on the platform we'd likely be seeing virtually every major third party title for the rest of the year on Wii U. Even once we've fully transitioned to the "next generation" (which won't be for another two years at least) a lot of things could still be made to work, if the perceived financial incentive is there.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: pokepal148 on June 16, 2013, 12:55:43 PM
For many games, Wii U support would be relatively easy to include. The issue right now isn't a matter of power, it's about sales. If publishers were more confident that their games would sell on the platform we'd likely be seeing virtually every major third party title for the rest of the year on Wii U. Even once we've fully transitioned to the "next generation" (which won't be for another two years at least) a lot of things could still be made to work, if the perceived financial incentive is there.
EXACTLY. next gen isn't the massive leap that the PS3/360 were. What Nintendo needs to do is four things.
1st: create a development program designed to transfer software from x86 to the Wii U cheaply and easily.
2nd: offer a list of "here are things you could do with the gamepad" and make things like off tv play easy to implement
3rd: give developers the opportunity to access promotions such as nintendo direct.
4th: do everything you possibly can to appeal to indies.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Kytim89 on June 16, 2013, 01:18:53 PM
For many games, Wii U support would be relatively easy to include. The issue right now isn't a matter of power, it's about sales. If publishers were more confident that their games would sell on the platform we'd likely be seeing virtually every major third party title for the rest of the year on Wii U. Even once we've fully transitioned to the "next generation" (which won't be for another two years at least) a lot of things could still be made to work, if the perceived financial incentive is there.
EXACTLY. next gen isn't the massive leap that the PS3/360 were. What Nintendo needs to do is four things.
1st: create a development program designed to transfer software from x86 to the Wii U cheaply and easily.
2nd: offer a list of "here are things you could do with the gamepad" and make things like off tv play easy to implement
3rd: give developers the opportunity to access promotions such as nintendo direct.
4th: do everything you possibly can to appeal to indies.
I am sure in the eyes of Nintendo's investors for every third party title that is not on the Wii U is a licensing fee that is not going into Nintendo's pocket. I am sure that their investors have encouraged them to accommodate more developers for the Wii U.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Uncle_Optimus on June 17, 2013, 04:03:35 AM
Yep to all of those bullets, but I'd say first and foremost Ninty needs to get those boxes into homes ;)
Price cut or a killer bundle is needed at retail by late fall. At the $350 price point if they tucked in either of the Mario games surely that would accelerate interest? Oh yeah, and effective marketing yeesh :/
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Agent-X- on June 17, 2013, 12:20:49 PM
Does Nintendo flood television with commercials highlighting how their little box allows for games to be played on the gamepad while the TV is in use? I'd be selling this feature hard from 3:30 PM until 7 PM every week day with a combination of "Hey, remember Wii Sports?? This is for you!" and "Are you tired of struggling with your little brat after 7 PM when it's YOU time? Well maybe it's time for Wii U?! Watch your smutty TV shows while the little ones go to town playing their favorite games quietly on the gamepad!"
As much as I hate to say this, Nintendo has got to entice the young parents out there into biting on this box. That 25-35 segment that now has at least one child approaching 5 years old is constantly having to reevaluate their budget (if they're smart), and the Wii U is already seen by some to be that console that hopes to bridge the gap between family-friendly games and the meatier, more intense experiences that just aren't good for children. That is the true potential of the Wii U: freeing up televisions while continuing to occupy restless kids, and it will also play Call of Duty online. Dad can be happy. Mom can be happy. Kids can be happy.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: shingi_70 on June 17, 2013, 12:29:59 PM
For many games, Wii U support would be relatively easy to include. The issue right now isn't a matter of power, it's about sales. If publishers were more confident that their games would sell on the platform we'd likely be seeing virtually every major third party title for the rest of the year on Wii U. Even once we've fully transitioned to the "next generation" (which won't be for another two years at least) a lot of things could still be made to work, if the perceived financial incentive is there.
EXACTLY. next gen isn't the massive leap that the PS3/360 were. What Nintendo needs to do is four things.
1st: create a development program designed to transfer software from x86 to the Wii U cheaply and easily.
2nd: offer a list of "here are things you could do with the gamepad" and make things like off tv play easy to implement
3rd: give developers the opportunity to access promotions such as nintendo direct.
4th: do everything you possibly can to appeal to indies.
1. I'd agree its something nintendo should look into too, since developers won't take the time to port games themselves. Maybe Nintendo should buy and expand straight right.
2. Eh Nintendo didn't even show great gamepad functions during E3. Look a horn for your Kart. beep beep
3.I agree nintendo needs to leverage Nintendo Direct's for third parties.
4. A Nintendo Direct just for indie games would be a great way to increase independent favor. Nintendo also needs to be more aggressive when it comes to courting indie developers. It seems that Nintendo waits for developers to get in touch with them, while Sony has been showig Dev kits to everyone.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Kytim89 on June 17, 2013, 12:47:54 PM
For many games, Wii U support would be relatively easy to include. The issue right now isn't a matter of power, it's about sales. If publishers were more confident that their games would sell on the platform we'd likely be seeing virtually every major third party title for the rest of the year on Wii U. Even once we've fully transitioned to the "next generation" (which won't be for another two years at least) a lot of things could still be made to work, if the perceived financial incentive is there.
EXACTLY. next gen isn't the massive leap that the PS3/360 were. What Nintendo needs to do is four things.
1st: create a development program designed to transfer software from x86 to the Wii U cheaply and easily.
2nd: offer a list of "here are things you could do with the gamepad" and make things like off tv play easy to implement
3rd: give developers the opportunity to access promotions such as nintendo direct.
4th: do everything you possibly can to appeal to indies.
1. I'd agree its something nintendo should look into too, since developers won't take the time to port games themselves. Maybe Nintendo should buy and expand straight right.
2. Eh Nintendo didn't even show great gamepad functions during E3. Look a horn for your Kart. beep beep
3.I agree nintendo needs to leverage Nintendo Direct's for third parties.
4. A Nintendo Direct just for indie games would be a great way to increase independent favor. Nintendo also needs to be more aggressive when it comes to courting indie developers. It seems that Nintendo waits for developers to get in touch with them, while Sony has been showig Dev kits to everyone.
I have said this numerous times before but Nintendo needs to approach third party developers and offer to port their games to the Wii U themselves. The deal would be the same as if the third party company was making the game except that Nintendo's employees would simply copy and past the game to the Wii U's OS and then splice in gamepad support. This would give third party Wii U supporters a significant cash incentive to deal with Nintendo because their own internal resources would not be jeopardized due to low sales.
As for marketing the Wii U, Nintendo needs to make a Nintendo Direct where they point out that Wii U is a home console version to the Nintendo DS and 3DS. Considering the financial success of those two systems it might make sense to point out that the Wii U is essentially the same thing but with a TV.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 17, 2013, 05:52:42 PM
For many games, Wii U support would be relatively easy to include. The issue right now isn't a matter of power, it's about sales. If publishers were more confident that their games would sell on the platform we'd likely be seeing virtually every major third party title for the rest of the year on Wii U. Even once we've fully transitioned to the "next generation" (which won't be for another two years at least) a lot of things could still be made to work, if the perceived financial incentive is there.
EXACTLY. next gen isn't the massive leap that the PS3/360 were. What Nintendo needs to do is four things.
1st: create a development program designed to transfer software from x86 to the Wii U cheaply and easily.
2nd: offer a list of "here are things you could do with the gamepad" and make things like off tv play easy to implement
3rd: give developers the opportunity to access promotions such as nintendo direct.
4th: do everything you possibly can to appeal to indies.
I am sure in the eyes of Nintendo's investors for every third party title that is not on the Wii U is a licensing fee that is not going into Nintendo's pocket. I am sure that their investors have encouraged them to accommodate more developers for the Wii U.
That makes perfect sense. But Nintendo has been losing out on licensing fees for 15 years and they have never seemed to give the slightest **** about it before. This was good enough incentive to not have crappy third party support on the Cube and Wii and yet Nintendo's attitude towards this has always seemed to be indifference. You know what also costs them money? Losing hardware sales to the competition because they have better third party support but AGAIN Nintendo has never demonstrated that they give the slightest **** about that. There has always been an obvious financial incentive to have healthy third party support but Nintendo either doesn't recognize that or doesn't care.
Maybe they recognize it now that their console is flopping hard but it's probably too late. The groundwork had to be done in the design phase of the Wii U. The Wii U will have shitty third party support for its entire life unless the market outright rejects the other new consoles and the PS3 and Xbox 360 just keep on chugging along.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: Kytim89 on June 17, 2013, 07:01:55 PM
Soaring development costs is going to put Nintendo in a position where there will be huge gaps between their first party titles to ensure quality. We are already seeing this right now with the Wii U. It is only going to get worse for Nintendo as Sony and Microsoft get the wheels rolling on their next consoles. Nintendo needs third party support now more than ever. Look at what third party Nintendo has received so far, while meager, it is still a good sign that things might pick up. It is question of software and hardware sales.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 17, 2013, 07:04:29 PM
We are already seeing this right now with the Wii U. It is only going to get worse for Nintendo as Sony and Microsoft get the wheels rolling on their next consoles.
?? After E3, it seems the gap between releases is going to sharply DECREASE soon.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: ThePerm on June 21, 2013, 04:31:08 AM
One of the things I head about is the rising costs of making games, if anything this should take a sharp nose dive. IF games are becoming too costly and too time consuming to make then developers should make better tools.
Title: Re: Is the Wii U underpowered?
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on June 21, 2013, 11:33:14 AM
Quote
?? After E3, it seems the gap between releases is going to sharply DECREASE soon.
The 4th q isn't bad. But if MK8 and SSB slips next year they might have a rough 2 to 3 quarters in 2014. That will hurt because launchgames that slip should fill up the ps4 xbox1 schedule .
