Post by: MegaByte on October 28, 2010, 01:20:55 PM
Can Retro top Rare as king of the jungle? I think so!
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/impressions/24357
After games like Kirby's Epic Yarn, it's refreshing to see a truly challenging 2D platformer. Donkey Kong Country Returns' stages get progressively harder, but each world offers its own unique challenges. The stage designs are clever and often devious; I often thought, "I can't believe they want me do that," but with a big smile on my face. Just making it through the levels is challenging; I imagine 100%'ing all of the levels will take quite an effort. It's hard enough to find some of the hidden items and survive the levels; doing both will be much harder. The one downside is that because of the difficulty, it doesn't work as well as a two-player game.
Much of the stage design is simply genius. But you really have to pay attention to what is going on. Sometimes, the levels force you forward, like a forest stage that features millions of spiders chasing the player. Other times, blindly jumping forward will get you killed; you have to watch for platform patterns. In almost all cases, the game keeps you moving. Platforms often self-destruct, but they may take out other platforms on the way, or open up new areas; and these changes can happen on more than one plane. The levels are very dynamic, and they really need to be experienced.
This time, Nintendo let us play using the sideways Remote control scheme, and I have to say that it changed the game for me. Instead of having to hold the triggers, I could now just hold the face buttons, making some of the complicated grabs much easier. I thought the shake controls were easier with just the Remote, though others preferred the Nunchuk combo for the same reason. Remote-only control is tight, though the stiff D-pad will kill your thumbs given the intensity of this game. The only complaint I really have about the game is the motion-based roll control -- that really should have been mapped to a button. I did eventually get used to it, but can't help but feel that control could have been more precise without it.
As for animal buddies, I only ever saw Rambi in stages, and sometimes he is quite well hidden. Squawks also makes an appearance -- you can buy him from Cranky's shop and use him in a level to scout out hidden items. Speaking of Cranky's shop, you can also buy heart boosts, power potions, extra lives, or keys that open up new paths. While the game readily eats lives, it's also pretty generous with banana coins, so keeping a large stock of lives isn't much of a problem.
Mine cart stages, a favorite of mine, are much more common than the original, with each track more spontaneous than the last, and a boss battle even takes place on one. And you're not limited to riding linear tracks -- there are a few levels that have the cart rolling around on circular surfaces, but in a really clever and smooth way. There are also rocket-based stages where you must tap lightly to boost up while avoiding enemies and environmental hazards. These stages were almost like a combination of Lunar Lander and Gradius. So, the lack of animal buddies isn't too big of a deal with all of the other modes of transportation available.
Each boss battle is punctuated with a cutscene. The Tikis have used their musical powers to possess the animals and bosses throughout Donkey Kong Country. Though still based on pattern recognition, the boss battles are much more inventive and harder than those found in the original games.
Super Princess Peach may have been the emotion-based platformer, but Donkey Kong Country Returns will evoke its emotions directly from the player. You'll feel happy from the platforming joy, sad when said platforms disintegrate under your feet, and anger when the boss narrowly beats you for the 50th time, while the Tiki spectators literally laugh at your failure. Retro Studios did an amazing job capturing the feeling of the original games, while adding meticulously-crafted immersiveness and ridiculous, yet humorous challenges. Donkey Kong Country Returns may be my new favorite Wii 2D platformer.
Click here to check out our exclusive footage from the first six worlds as well as the new trailer and B-roll!
Post by: Toruresu on October 28, 2010, 01:35:08 PM
Post by: broodwars on October 28, 2010, 01:37:45 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 28, 2010, 02:09:40 PM
Great to know that the game currently lives up to the DKC legacy.
Post by: broodwars on October 28, 2010, 02:13:10 PM
Post by: Retro Deckades on October 28, 2010, 02:20:01 PM
Can't wait. This one truly taps into my nostalgia.
Post by: Caterkiller on October 28, 2010, 03:58:03 PM
Oh boy it sounds like a blast! I had no issues with the shake to roll aspect when I played it, or NSMBW, I don't think I will have any issue here.
I don't know why but I get such a kick out of seeing that elephant, giraffe, and zebra floating in the back ground!
Edit again!
After watching the videos this game deserves to sell better than NSMBW! I hope the name Country and the fact that it's 2 players like this helps it sell like nuts! I think Retro deserves a mega hit, Metroid never sold like it should have, but DK has potential. I hope DK gets at least 1/3 the sales of NSMBW. That would be amazing in itself!
Post by: Ian Sane on October 28, 2010, 07:13:11 PM
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It just makes absolutely no sense why they aren't supporting the Classic Controller with this game. Really, why not? Oh right, it's a Nintendo title, and Nintendo doesn't like supporting their own peripherals!
Nintendo sold us a refurbished Gamecube and called it a new system and used the excuse that motion control is the new standard as the justification for doing so. They give us the option to use normal controls and we'll pick it because waggle sucks. But that makes their games no different than Gamecube games. So why did we buy a new system for the exact same thing as before? Thus the option must not be available. Motion control's flaws are exposed in a direct comparison so the comparison cannot be made available. The irony of course is that all this does is piss off the people that they're trying to trick by removing the option. Motion control HAS to be the new standard, whether or not it is capable of the task, so we must be forced to use it.
But it nice to see that this is looking to be a great game nonetheless. I should hope so as I put it on my Christmas list. :)
Post by: KnowsNothing on October 28, 2010, 07:14:56 PM
Post by: Mop it up on October 28, 2010, 08:46:20 PM
Post by: broodwars on October 28, 2010, 09:39:19 PM
So the game still has forced shaking? That's kind of disappointing. When will they learn that nobody wants that?
Probably as soon as they're done counting all the cash people keep giving them for pumping out games with unwanted waggle.
Post by: Killer_Man_Jaro on October 29, 2010, 04:30:20 AM
Post by: Stratos on October 29, 2010, 05:45:45 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 29, 2010, 10:39:36 AM
Post by: broodwars on October 29, 2010, 10:52:23 AM
Don't tell me the rolls you make with waggle are the same ones from the classic games that allowed you to roll off edges and make farther jumps. That sounds terrible.
Yep, that is indeed what the roll is used for in this game as well, according to Impressions. And I'm sure that just like it always did in the two Mario Galaxy games, the roll will always execute every time I shake the Wii Remote, without fail...especially when a life is on the line and I need it to get past a deadly obstacle. ::) Damn it, Nintendo, I used to think you were smart enough not to map essential game functions to unreliable controls, but I guess you're just too busy counting your profits from the Wii to care about good game design all the time anymore.
And don't think you're getting out of this blameless, Retro. C'mon, you guys should know better than this.
Post by: MegaByte on October 29, 2010, 11:39:55 AM
So, what are the Remote only controls? I presume 2 is to jump and 1 is to pick up barrels or other objects (correct me if I'm wrong). What am I missing... ground slaps? Can't think of any other mechanisms.Posted a cap of the controls here: http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/media/24368/4/3.jpg (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/media/24368/4/3.jpg)
So is the overworld map your standard "follow a linear path to the next level that sometimes branches off" like most Mario games?Yes; like I said in my previous impressions, it's very much like New Super Mario Bros. Wii.
Post by: Luigi Dude on October 29, 2010, 01:04:39 PM
Yep, that is indeed what the roll is used for in this game as well, according to Impressions. And I'm sure that just like it always did in the two Mario Galaxy games, the roll will always execute every time I shake the Wii Remote, without fail...especially when a life is on the line and I need it to get past a deadly obstacle. ::) Damn it, Nintendo, I used to think you were smart enough not to map essential game functions to unreliable controls, but I guess you're just too busy counting your profits from the Wii to care about good game design all the time anymore.
And don't think you're getting out of this blameless, Retro. C'mon, you guys should know better than this.
Oh give me a break. If you actually had a problem with Mario Galaxy 1/2 motion controls then that's your fault not the games. The only way to activate the spin was to give your Wiimote a sudden flick. If you kept dieing because Mario kept spinning then either the motion sensors in your Wiimote were busted or you need to calm yourself down when you play the game. Just like how in Wario Land Shake if you literally shook the controller like crazy, the controls got all imprecise and didn't work well but if you used a simple flick and moved the controller in a gentle up and down motion, everything worked perfectly.
Sound like DKCR is going to be the same way. If you actually use the controls the right way through basic flicking and gentle motions they'll work just fine. If you just keep swinging the controller around like maniac then yes, your going to have a problem since your not using the controls the way they're meant to be played.
Post by: broodwars on October 29, 2010, 01:20:14 PM
Oh give me a break. If you actually had a problem with Mario Galaxy 1/2 motion controls then that's your fault not the games. The only way to activate the spin was to give your Wiimote a sudden flick. If you kept dieing because Mario kept spinning then either the motion sensors in your Wiimote were busted or you need to calm yourself down when you play the game. Just like how in Wario Land Shake if you literally shook the controller like crazy, the controls got all imprecise and didn't work well but if you used a simple flick and moved the controller in a gentle up and down motion, everything worked perfectly.
Actually, the problem I had with Mario Galaxy 1/2 is that I'd hold the controller steady most of the time and the shake would work most of the time, but then I'd get to a Galaxy like the ones in Galaxy 2 where you have flipping platform that react to your Spin Attack. I'd be in mid-jump, shake my controller like normal to do the Spin Attack and bring a platform up, and nothing would happen. It was infuriating, because I'd do the same motion I'd always do to trigger the spin and it just wouldn't work.
The point is that Nintendo and Retro are forcing imprecise, unreliable motion controls onto a gameplay feature that is likely essential for getting through the game and getting the secrets, judging by how much I used it in the original DKC games. It is important that you be able to execute a roll consistently every time you need it, and it it's as unreliable as the spin attack was in Mario Galaxy (which is sustantially less important) that's a major problem. Once again, we don't even get the option of using a control scheme where this feature is mapped to a button, even though Nintendo has a perfectly serviceable Classic Controller they could allow us to use and everything would be fine. But no, this is Nintendo and they don't support their peripherals.
Post by: Retro Deckades on October 29, 2010, 02:24:07 PM
Posted a cap of the controls here: <a href="http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/media/24368/4/3.jpg (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/../media/24368/4/3.jpg)">http://www.nintendoworldreport.com
Wow, those are some unessecarily convoluted controls. Blow ought to be assigned to the B button - I can't imagine using it all that often and wouldn't care to have to press it once in a while. Ground pound should be a shake of the Wii Remote. Roll/Run/Grab used to be all one button back on the SNES -- separating them complicates things here. I'm not sure why nothing is mapped to A -- something less frequently used could easily work here. Combine maybe?
Anywho, I'm sure any gamer worth their salt will eventually adapt to the control scheme and become quite adept with it.
Post by: Peachylala on October 29, 2010, 02:59:08 PM
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The point is that Nintendo and Retro are forcing imprecise, unreliable motion controls onto a gameplay feature that is likely essential for getting through the game and getting the secrets, judging by how much I used it in the original DKC games. It is important that you be able to execute a roll consistently every time you need it, and it it's as unreliable as the spin attack was in Mario Galaxy (which is sustantially less important) that's a major problem.Sorry, I don't see how Galaxy 1/2 had imprecise controls. They worked absolutely fine, and I had no problems at all. The Spin Attack was an amazing feature to have in that game, and NO, it wasn't hard to control.
But I do agree having the rolling being waggle is kind of silly. Though it shouldn't be too hard to get used to.
Post by: Stratos on October 29, 2010, 03:54:46 PM
QuoteThe point is that Nintendo and Retro are forcing imprecise, unreliable motion controls onto a gameplay feature that is likely essential for getting through the game and getting the secrets, judging by how much I used it in the original DKC games. It is important that you be able to execute a roll consistently every time you need it, and it it's as unreliable as the spin attack was in Mario Galaxy (which is sustantially less important) that's a major problem.Sorry, I don't see how Galaxy 1/2 had imprecise controls. They worked absolutely fine, and I had no problems at all. The Spin Attack was an amazing feature to have in that game, and NO, it wasn't hard to control.
But I do agree having the rolling being waggle is kind of silly. Though it shouldn't be too hard to get used to.
It's Donkey Kong Country. I shouldn't have to get used to the controls.
Post by: King of Twitch on October 29, 2010, 04:00:21 PM
Post by: Peachylala on October 29, 2010, 04:01:28 PM
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It's Donkey Kong Country. I shouldn't have to get used to the controls.That's what the tutorial stage is for. ;)
Post by: Mop it up on October 29, 2010, 05:32:55 PM
I shouldn't have to get used to the controls.I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not... but if everyone had that mindset, controllers wouldn't have evolved past the Atari joystick.
Post by: King of Twitch on October 29, 2010, 05:34:28 PM
Post by: Retro Deckades on October 29, 2010, 05:37:40 PM
QuoteIt's Donkey Kong Country. I shouldn't have to get used to the controls.That's what the tutorial stage is for. ;)
Exactly.
I can't believe how lazy people have gotten when it comes to new control methods in established franchises or genres. It's especially prevalent in these throwback games. They just provide cannon fodder for those who don't want to take the time to learn something new. If these new controls actually become a hindrance to the way you play the game (for example, if the response is poor or inconsistent) then sure, they ought to be called out. However, I am reserving judgement. I found the controls in Nintendo's previous efforts to be responsive and easy to master. If those games are any precedent, there's a good chance that by the second or third world of DKCR, almost no thought will be given to having to shake the remote to roll.
Post by: broodwars on October 29, 2010, 06:01:04 PM
I can't believe how lazy people have gotten when it comes to new control methods in established franchises or genres. It's especially prevalent in these throwback games. They just provide cannon fodder for those who don't want to take the time to learn something new. If these new controls actually become a hindrance to the way you play the game (for example, if the response is poor or inconsistent) then sure, they ought to be called out. However, I am reserving judgement. I found the controls in Nintendo's previous efforts to be responsive and easy to master. If those games are any precedent, there's a good chance that by the second or third world of DKCR, almost no thought will be given to having to shake the remote to roll.
And I can't believe how complacent and quick to agree people are with anything Nintendo does just because it is Nintendo that did it. I wouldn't mind the motion control in DKCR if (a) I had any reason based on previous Nintendo games that the feature would work correctly every time I needed to use it OR (b) Nintendo provided a traditional control scheme alternative for those that want the precision of buttons over the inaccurate flailing of motion controls.
You say Nintendo should be called out if the motion controls are unresponsive, and I definitely found the motion control in both Mario Galaxy games unresponsive. So yeah, I'm calling them out on it. This is exactly what is wrong about motion controls this generation: they just replace buttons and don't add anything to the game. When I'm trying to do a rolling jump in DKC, my primary concern should be "am I timing this right and am I executing the move properly" NOT "will the motion controls work this time, or am I about to die due to a mechanical problem beyond my control?"
I have a great deal of faith in Retro to make an awesome game, because that's what they do. I have absolutely NO faith in the motion control prowess of the Wii Remote without MotionPlus, because time after time experience has shown me the thing is technologically faulty. I have no problem with trying new control schemes if they prove to be better or more immersive. This is just motion control for motion control's sake, which doesn't make it better than Traditional Controls. It's not like this is the first time we've seen Nintendo this generation use an inferior control scheme just for the sake of it, or even the first time this year (Metroid Other M). And as I've said, I wouldn't have a problem with this if I was just given the option of using traditional controls so I can leave the Wiimote flailing for those who want it.
Post by: Retro Deckades on October 29, 2010, 06:25:50 PM
And I can't believe how complacent and quick to agree people are with anything Nintendo does just because it is Nintendo that did it.
I don't recall saying that I loved Wii Music.
Post by: Peachylala on October 29, 2010, 08:10:22 PM
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You say Nintendo should be called out if the motion controls are unresponsive, and I definitely found the motion control in both Mario Galaxy games unresponsive.Funny thing, I thought they worked just fine. Maybe your Wiimote was bugging out?
Quote
(b) Nintendo provided a traditional control scheme alternative for those that want the precision of buttons over the inaccurate flailing of motion controls....Flailing? I remember Shake It needing a quick flick and that was it. You don't need to flail, at all.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 29, 2010, 08:17:37 PM
Post by: broodwars on October 29, 2010, 08:38:22 PM
QuoteYou say Nintendo should be called out if the motion controls are unresponsive, and I definitely found the motion control in both Mario Galaxy games unresponsive.Funny thing, I thought they worked just fine. Maybe your Wiimote was bugging out?
While that's certainly possible (I'm still using my original Wiimote that I got with the system back in April 2007), I don't think that's the reason because I've never had issues with motion control on the MotionPlus titles I've played.
Post by: Mop it up on October 29, 2010, 10:18:08 PM
Post by: Caterkiller on October 30, 2010, 02:45:56 AM
Post by: Stratos on October 30, 2010, 07:12:22 AM
Post by: Killer_Man_Jaro on October 30, 2010, 08:43:58 AM
Post by: Peachylala on October 30, 2010, 01:10:18 PM
It depends on the game for me. I've not had much of a problem in the Galaxies but half of my friends struggle with the NSMB Wii controls. One of my friends has huge hands so he can't control right with the tiny D-Pad.Strangely enough, the WiiMote+Nunchuck option for NSMBWii is my favorite way to play that game. I also like the WiiMote only option too, but since my hands are not that big...
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Plus I have two freaking CCs. An original and a Pro. what did I buy them for? Freaking include the option! You did in Mario Kart and Smash Brothers. Why not here? Plus the WiiMote is just smaller than I would like the controller to be. A little bit bigger would feel more comfortable in my hands.This is valid, but Smash Bros and Mario Kart are two totally different games compared to DKC. One's a race, the other is a 2-D mascot fight with some platforming mixed in.
Ok, maybe Smash Bros can be somewhat comparable to DKC, but... yeah.
Post by: Retro Deckades on October 30, 2010, 01:50:43 PM
I do like the classic controller, but I find it hard to be surprised when Nintendo doesn't implement it for current games since it has always seemed that it is primarily for use with the virtual console (although some newer games like Monster Hunter 3 and Goldeneye 007 have been challenging that). It's always nice to have the option, but it's entirely possible to enjoy the game with these different control methods as long as they work, and in Nintendo's other 2-D platformers, like Wario Land: Shake It and NSMB Wii, they did.
Post by: Mop it up on October 30, 2010, 10:46:47 PM
*Yes Ian Sane I know the answer.
Post by: Stratos on October 31, 2010, 07:48:11 AM
I'm a pro waggle gamer overall but there are some that I just want to play normally. I prefer Wavebird for Brawl, Mote+Chuck for Mario Kart and WiiMote solo for NSMBW. But I really want to use the CC for DKCR. The WiiMote is OK for NES revival titles like Mario Brothers but DKCR is an SNES revival and the CC is the equivalent to the SNES controller.
It makes me wish there was either a clip on the CC so you could support waggle with it or even a CC with waggle in it so that I could just have the shape and button layout of the CC.
Post by: Caterkiller on October 31, 2010, 12:56:33 PM
Post by: Peachylala on November 01, 2010, 12:27:03 AM
For people that had trouble in the Galaxy titles, did you just not wait until the motion timer reset itself? You can't just shake and shake, you shake once Mario spins, give it a second for that little star man to reset, hear the chime and then shake again. I went into the game several hours before I realized that. Wouldn't be surprised if some people went through the entire game like that.The opening tutorial mentioned that element quite clearly, if I remember correctly.
Post by: Caterkiller on November 01, 2010, 01:23:49 AM
Post by: Peachylala on November 01, 2010, 11:18:14 AM
I'm one of those people who skip all the text and dialogue in a tutorial and see if I can just figure it out, cause I can just look at my surroundings and usually assume correctly what is asked of me. That would explain why I didn't understand the shake timer sooner.And it shouldn't be held against you, but then again, the opening was basically a tiny playground for us to play around in before the real adventure started.
Post by: Ian Sane on November 01, 2010, 05:02:04 PM
I know this will be a problem with this game because it was a problem with the one before it and the one before that and the one before that. I encounter this all the time. Every Wii game I play I feel like "this is pretty good but, damn it, I wish this feature was a button. If they just let me use the classic controller this would play like a dream." Prior to this gen, I associated Nintendo with great responsive controls. I felt I could always trust them on that. Now it's a complete flip-flop. Nintendo no longer designs their controls to be responsive and practical. Their focus is on gimmick controls that appeal to rubes. Controls are now a marketing tool. They don't design them to suit the game, they design them to appeal to someone too dumb, ignorant or close-minded to try the game out if it had normal controls.
And, again, just give me the damn option! I don't blame Retro because I figure the lack of options is coming down from NCL. We can all bitch about the barrel roll controlling like **** at E3 but if NCL says that Retro has to put it in and that they cannot provide the option not to then that is what is going to happen. If it was just this game I would blame Retro, but it's EVERY Nintendo game regardless of the dev team so it's likely NCL enforcing it.
Post by: Peachylala on November 01, 2010, 05:56:00 PM
Post by: Stratos on November 01, 2010, 09:25:12 PM
I complained about the roll controls and lack of CC support in my 'Intend to Buy' survey on the Club Nintendo site.
Post by: Mop it up on November 01, 2010, 09:35:42 PM
1. Skip over his posts
2. Add him to your "Ignore" list
Post by: broodwars on November 01, 2010, 10:10:07 PM
Does every one of your posts have to be paragraphs of whining Ian?
Considering your avatar, there's a certain irony to this statement. ;)
As for Ian, I could do without the repetition of the same argument every time Nintendo does...well...anything, but it is a legitimate point here. There's nothing but sheer arrogance and disinterest that keeps Nintendo from just having more traditional controls as an option in their games. If you like waggling in your games, fine. Just don't force me to have to deal with them when I prefer standard controls when they are the most sensible control scheme. If Nintendo just supported both types of control in their games, we could all be happy being able to play our games the way WE want to.
Why is it that Nintendo seems to be the only company these days determined to force their customers to play their games one way and one way only, even (and seemingly "especially") when there might be alternative control schemes that suit the game better for different people? Aside from the obvious diversion of resources, what does it hurt to allow your customers to play your games the way they enjoy them the most? For a company that preaches "expanding the audience" and opening up avenues of play to gamers with a wide variety of skill and interests, they sure are stubborn to actually allow more-traditional gamers that courtesy.
Post by: Peachylala on November 01, 2010, 11:21:04 PM
Now, waggle rolling could end up being the same as it was in the SNES games: optional, but there if you need it. But if it DOES hamper the game design, then yes, it's a compliant and don't see why Nintendo couldn't add Classic Pro support.
But here's another problem: Not everyone is made of money. I don't know how much of the Wii audience has a CC/Pro controler, but it doesn't come with the Wii set itself. Price itself might be a issue, but yeah.
We can't say go out and say arrogance. Economics may have played an issue. And waggle can be done right if the player him/herself doesn't shake the WiiMote forcefully. All it needs is a quick flick.
Post by: King of Twitch on November 01, 2010, 11:30:17 PM
I am also confused at how they could flick the remote and think hey, you know what that motion reminds me of? DOING A CARTWHEEL WITH MY WHOLE BODY
Mark me down as unimpressed.
Post by: Peachylala on November 01, 2010, 11:40:00 PM
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No, roll jumping is a crucial mechanic and part of every balanced breakfast.Is there a bagel or muffin on the side with that?
Post by: King of Twitch on November 01, 2010, 11:44:02 PM
Post by: Stratos on November 02, 2010, 03:39:18 AM
QuoteNo, roll jumping is a crucial mechanic and part of every balanced breakfast.Is there a bagel or muffin on the side with that?
Yes. A Blueberry one.
And the roll was very essential to the first DKC. Try and get 100% without it. And, no, you didn't beat DKC if you didn't 100% the game.
Post by: Peachylala on November 02, 2010, 02:52:54 PM
In NSMBWii, you waggle when you have a Propeller Suit so you can fly. A little shake, and you're up in the air. Continue to shake? You just spin. The game doesn't abuse waggle (despite what some people may claim), and neither did the Galaxy games.
Post by: broodwars on November 02, 2010, 03:00:33 PM
The game doesn't abuse waggle (despite what some people may claim), and neither did the Galaxy games.
Any game that uses waggle for waggle's sake is abusing motion control. The spin attack in Mario Galaxy and the propeller jump in NSMBW could have been mapped to buttons and would only have played better. I just don't see how shake=action is more immersive, let alone immersive enough to make up for the loss of responsiveness while the Wii interprets your motions. Hopefully waggle will something that will die with the next generation of motion control, because it's the worst thing to come of this console generation IMO.
It's just bizarre that this far into the Wii's lifecycle, Nintendo still seems to be treating games like it was the Wii launch window, where every game has to have some kind of shoe-horned motion control. Remember when the DS launched and everything had to be touch screen and blowing into the microphone, and nowadays the various features of the handheld are usually only used when they're needed and add something? When are we going to see that on Wii?
Post by: Retro Deckades on November 02, 2010, 03:56:39 PM
Any game that uses waggle for waggle's sake is abusing motion control. The spin attack in Mario Galaxy and the propeller jump in NSMBW could have been mapped to buttons and would only have played better.
The issue is that there just aren't enough buttons on the Wii remote to make those actions easy, intuitive, or comfortable enough to perform. Sometimes it's a necessity. (At least when not using the classic controller).
The root of DKCR's problem is that run and roll are mapped to two different buttons. In the original games, they were one and the same, so you could be running along, build up a head of steam, and then lift your finger ever so slightly to press the button and roll while moving at a good clip. Since roll is assigned to a different function in this game, you'd have to completely remove your finger from the run button in order to press it, which would result in losing your momentum.
There are possible solutions to this, but not many that seem intuitive and comfortable. If there were classic controller support, the best they could do would be to map roll to a shoulder button. As far as holding the remote horizontally, it'd either be roll with a slight flick of the controller, or reach behind and hit the B trigger.
Post by: broodwars on November 02, 2010, 04:11:49 PM
The root of DKCR's problem is that run and roll are mapped to two different buttons. In the original games, they were one and the same, so you could be running along, build up a head of steam, and then lift your finger ever so slightly to press the button and roll while moving at a good clip. Since roll is assigned to a different function in this game, you'd have to completely remove your finger from the run button in order to press it, which would result in losing your momentum.
That's the thing, though: why are Run and Roll mapped to two separate buttons when they worked just fine as one button with 2 different functionalities in the SNES games? Does Nintendo think that today's Blue Ocean gamers are too stupid to figure out that one button has two different meanings depending on context, when gamers in the 80s had this stuff nailed? This also happened with New Super Mario Bros. Wii, where the run and grab functions of one button were turned into one button and waggle.
I'm not saying that Wii games never need to use motion control to supplement the lack of buttons (though they could always just use the Classic Controller). But this is Donkey Kong Country, not Steel Batallion. They could have mapped these functions to existing Wiimote + Nunchuk or even Wiimot-only controls fairly easily and it would have played fine. But they went with waggle instead.
Post by: Stratos on November 02, 2010, 04:26:55 PM
I enjoy the waggle in a number of games. No More Heroes slashes and wrestling moves, Mario Kart Wii's shaking to pull of tricks and wheelies, Mario Galaxy spin, propeller cap in NSMBW; I like all of those. But there are times where it feels clunky and cumbersome like grabbing in NSMBW. I've gotten used to grabbing but it still feels kinda funny. I imagine that is how it will turn out in DKCR- you get used to it but it just never sits right with you.
Post by: Retro Deckades on November 02, 2010, 04:52:46 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on November 02, 2010, 05:51:03 PM
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As for Ian, I could do without the repetition of the same argument every time Nintendo does...well...anything
Since Nintendo never changes the same criticisms still apply, unfortunately creating repitition. This controller stuff, friend codes, lack of demos, third party support - the same argument gets made each time because Nintendo NEVER addresses them. No more waggle = no more complaints about it.
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Remember when the DS launched and everything had to be touch screen and blowing into the microphone, and nowadays the various features of the handheld are usually only used when they're needed and add something? When are we going to see that on Wii?
Someone mentioned the lack of buttons which is likely part of it. The unique features of the DS compliment a conventional control design, on the Wii the unique features replace it. But then Nintendo did release those Zelda games that control with only the touchscreen fairly recently. Those control like awkward DS launch games. It's kind of weird how they just suddenly decided to go back to forced touchscreen usage out of nowhere when that was no longer the trend.
Though third party support is better on the DS then on the Wii so third parties have more influence on the DS. They moved away from forced usage so that became the trend on the DS. The Wii has not had that as Nintendo is clearly the trend-setter.
But the thing is that Nintendo also provided options for SSB Brawl, Mario Kart Wii and Punch-Out. Much like how Phantom Hourglass's wacky controls came out of nowhere so did Nintendo suddenly not providing the option for conventional controls in their Wii games. I wonder if Nintendo made some decision at that point to really give these control schemes the hard sell and not allow people to use anything else.
Post by: Mop it up on November 02, 2010, 06:41:53 PM
And the roll was very essential to the first DKC. Try and get 100% without it. And, no, you didn't beat DKC if you didn't 100% the game.Sorry, but I don't bother to 100% games with poor design. Randomly jumping into pits with the hopes of finding useless bonus rooms is not my idea of a good time.
All the casuals I've played NSMBW with always get hung up over the grab function. "You have to do what with the controller?" Not a good way to attract people to the game.I haven't seen anyone I've introduced to the game who wasn't confused by that. They'd see the little icon that appears over the character's head when he's near a grabbable item, and they'd ask "What's it say to do?"
Post by: Stratos on November 02, 2010, 06:52:47 PM
Post by: NWR_insanolord on November 02, 2010, 08:15:52 PM
Post by: Retro Deckades on November 03, 2010, 01:53:39 AM
Sorry, but I don't bother to 100% games with poor design. Randomly jumping into pits with the hopes of finding useless bonus rooms is not my idea of a good time.
useless bonus rooms = true
rest = fail
Post by: Mop it up on November 03, 2010, 02:02:19 AM
A lot of them I discovered by accident.So you aren't very good at the game and accidentally fell down all the pits? :P
Post by: Stratos on November 03, 2010, 02:35:26 AM
Post by: Mop it up on November 03, 2010, 02:51:40 AM
Still, I think the main reason I didn't feel compelled to complete the game 100% is because there aren't any bonus stages or anything for doing so. DKC2 unlocked levels using the coins hidden in the bonus rooms, so those secrets were worth finding. Though I also enjoyed searching for them for some reason, even though I did not in the first game. Maybe that's because I knew there was a reward, but I still think they were more cleverly and thoughtfully hidden in DKC2 and 3. And so I hope DKCR takes more pages from those two games than the first; isn't DKC2 largely considered the best game in the series?
Post by: Stratos on November 03, 2010, 02:56:39 AM
Post by: Mop it up on November 03, 2010, 03:13:39 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on November 03, 2010, 12:21:57 PM
DKC 2 however very specifically wanted the player to find all the secrets to unlock new levels. That was a probably a reaction to people going nuts trying to find all the secrets in the first game so Rare decided to make it more of a focus. There is no real reward for getting 100% in DKC and I think if Rare specifically designed the game with that in mind they would have offered more of an incentive.
A lot of the old Mario games would have secret 1UPs. They didn't put those in the game specifically for players to seek out 100% of them. I figure the first DKC was the same idea. They're just hidden power-ups to help the player so if you can't find them all it doesn't matter.
Post by: Stogi on November 03, 2010, 03:11:01 PM
Just saying...
I feel like rolling with a flick could work extremely well. People have pointed to Galaxy as an example and I agree. I may have spun on accident a couple times due to my excitement but whenever I really needed to spin (let's say to give me that extra bit of height), it always worked. ALWAYS. There wasn't a single time that I flicked the remote and the game didn't respond according.
Maybe I'm just optimistic and I really like Retro, but I think this game will be no different. Who knows? Maybe it just feels so intuitive that they found no reason to support any other schemes.
Post by: Ian Sane on November 03, 2010, 06:36:45 PM
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People have pointed to Galaxy as an example and I agree. I may have spun on accident a couple times due to my excitement but whenever I really needed to spin (let's say to give me that extra bit of height), it always worked. ALWAYS. There wasn't a single time that I flicked the remote and the game didn't respond according.
It seems to be different for different people, which makes sense since it involves a more physical involvement. It isn't precise enough for me. I will encounter times where it doesn't work or it goes off when I don't want it to. Perhaps that's just the way I naturally move my arms. I don't think this is something where it is fair to assume that because you can do it fine everyone else is in the same boat. My brother for example just can't seem to keep still and he's just making Mario spin all over the place at the wrong time. Playing NSMB with him added this new frustrating dimension of random chaos. He got us killed with accidental spins mere seconds from defeating Bowser TWICE.
That's why we should have options. If it's a problem for the individual, like it is with me and my brother and some other people on this forum, then we could pick something that works better for us. It's a completely reasonable request.
If Microsoft didn't offer keyboard shortcuts for Windows anymore and told everyone to just use the mouse do you think that would fly in a million years? This is the exact same thing.
Post by: Stogi on November 03, 2010, 09:19:31 PM
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I don't think this is something where it is fair to assume that because you can do it fine everyone else is in the same boat.
I don't' think it's fair the other way around. Again blowing this out of proportion. I feel that a small fraction of the population feels the way you do.
What I will concede is this, we are both assuming how well or terrible these controls will be based on previous experiences. There's no reason to bitch especially because you haven't even played it yet.
Post by: Ian Sane on November 04, 2010, 02:14:14 PM
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I don't' think it's fair the other way around.
How is it possibly not fair the other way around? Even if the amount of people that find it difficult to use motion control are a minority providing the OPTION affects you in no way whatsoever. So how is requesting the option not fair in any way? We're not saying to take motion control away, we're saying to provide the option to not use it which Nintendo has even offered in the past.
Post by: Stogi on November 04, 2010, 04:36:23 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you in that Nintendo should provide more options. I'm with you on that one. I'm just saying you could really like it and find it easy to use making all this moot.
And if you don't, well I'm sorry. Don't buy the game and go on complaining. That's the only fair you'll receive.
Post by: King of Twitch on November 08, 2010, 11:42:06 AM
Post by: MegaByte on November 08, 2010, 05:38:34 PM
Post by: King of Twitch on November 08, 2010, 09:48:01 PM
