The last five years have been an explosive period of growth for Nintendo and their quest for expansion outside of the traditional game-playing audience. Under the leadership of president Satoru Iwata, the company that was once close to falling dangerously out of touch with the industry has been able to wrestle its leadership position back from Sony Computer Entertainment and help pave the way for the future of the business as a whole. However, the journey to the top, as one can guess, has been far from easy. A report at Japanese industry site Gamesbusiness.jp sourced from Nikkei’s print tabloid further reveals that Nintendo’s growth was almost too fast for the company’s understaffed management to be able to cope with.
Part of the reason for this, the report states, is that the rapid spread of the Wii and DS globally and online expansion efforts resulted in a greatly increased workload for a number of Nintendo branches. The company’s network development department in particular voiced dissatisfactions with their workload. Furthermore, Nintendo’s software development teams were so busy creating sequels to existing popular I.P., they were unable find the time to dedicate themselves to the development of new franchises.
At the start of 2009, Iwata compiled a list of Nintendo’s internal problems. The list, shockingly, amounted to nearly 700 items.[...]
So what were some of the generalized problems listed in the article....
1.) Understaffed for explosive growth since 2004 2.) Networking staff overloaded 3.) No time for New I.P.'s 4.) 3rd party Relations 5.) Communication (or lack of) between branches
So I thought, maybe we can fill in alot of the blanks and cmaybe come up with a list of 700 problems for Iwata to fix.
I'll let the next poster get it started.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on April 11, 2010, 10:31:23 PM
lol this is duh stuff, i think i said years ago nintendo needs to set up new teams. Especially here in the the English speaking world. NOA needs to be doing more, and ALLOWED to do more.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: King of Twitch on April 11, 2010, 10:42:17 PM
6) Storage solution
...oh
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: stevey on April 11, 2010, 10:54:47 PM
7) Incompetent Engineers
If Nintendo didn't horribly paint themselves in a corner with the OS, there would have been a real storage solution. (and brawl's online mode would've already been fixed)
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Caterkiller on April 11, 2010, 11:53:07 PM
If Nintendo didn't horribly paint themselves in a corner with the OS, there would have been a real storage solution. (and brawl's online mode would've already been fixed)
Whats the "OS"? Online system?
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Peachylala on April 11, 2010, 11:56:48 PM
lol this is duh stuff, i think i said years ago nintendo needs to set up new teams. Especially here in the the English speaking world. NOA needs to be doing more, and ALLOWED to do more.
Nintendo has Next Level and Monster, but they are not owned by Nintendo, and I don't think they want to be. Retro is owned by Nintendo though.
If Nintendo didn't horribly paint themselves in a corner with the OS, there would have been a real storage solution. (and brawl's online mode would've already been fixed)
Whats the "OS"? Online system?
Operating System...?
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on April 12, 2010, 12:02:22 AM
Hopefully, Retro has something announced at e3 that will make us cream our pants. I just wish Nintendo had at least 2 more Retro caliber developers(like it used to with Rare and SK). I think it needs more fully owned subsidiaries than second parties(cus second parties are filled with betrayal and backstabingness)
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Peachylala on April 12, 2010, 12:04:13 AM
Oh my, I wonder what happened to those douche-bags that left Retro? (did they ever amount to much?)
Monster Games needs to be Nintendo owned and making a new F-Zero game, NAO.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Spinnzilla on April 12, 2010, 12:11:14 AM
7.)They get stopped by the police because they're young and black and their hats realy low.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 12, 2010, 09:37:49 AM
Oh my, I wonder what happened to those douche-bags that left Retro? (did they ever amount to much?)
The three who left (design director Mark Pacini, art director Todd Keller, principle technology engineer Jack Mathews) formed Armature Studio in mid-2008 and announced a deal to make games for Electronic Arts, but I can't find any mention of what games they are actually working on.
Nintendo Software Technology (NST) used to be pretty good, they made some great N64 games, I don't know why their quality dropped on the GameCube.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Dasmos on April 12, 2010, 10:13:58 AM
What 64 games did they make that were so special?
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Pale on April 12, 2010, 10:53:04 AM
I like seeing that the networking staff comment. It's the closest admission of issues I've ever seen from Nintendo I think. The fact that they know it's a problem should mean that they have since been trying to fix it. So here's to hoping Wii 2 will have the killer online presence we've all been wanting.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: noname2200 on April 12, 2010, 12:55:46 PM
I hope that "get another Yokoi" is on the list. I love Miyamoto, and Nintendo does have other talented developers besides Miyamoto, but I feel that Yokoi brought a nice counter-balance to Miyamoto. While not all of his stuff worked out, it was certainly helpful to have someone with an obviously-different slant at Nintendo.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 12, 2010, 02:36:52 PM
I just looked and saw they only did two N64 games. One was pretty good though, Pokémon Puzzle League. They also made the GameCube launch game Wave Race: Blue Storm, which was pretty good. Actually, most of their games have been pretty good.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Stratos on April 12, 2010, 03:13:12 PM
8 ) Actually localize their games here in the West. (Soma Bringer, ASH, Tact of Magic, Fatal Frame 4, Disaster) 9 ) Lack of good prizes in the Club Nintendo store. 10) Better VC support. 11) Actually finish Kirby Wii...lol
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 12, 2010, 04:16:22 PM
12. Making sure everyone's clear on how to spell the names of their games
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Mop it up on April 12, 2010, 05:38:47 PM
13. Need more Mario games. 14. Need less Pokémon exposure.
8 ) Actually localize their games here in the West. (Soma Bringer, ASH, Tact of Magic, Fatal Frame 4, Disaster) 9 ) Lack of good prizes in the Club Nintendo store.
Neither of these are anything NCL would be concerned with since they focus on the Japanese market.
12. Making sure everyone's clear on how to spell the names of their games
Apparently they've hired TJ Spyke for that.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 12, 2010, 06:07:16 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned this but...
#21.) Swirly slide from Iwata's office to the Money Vault for quick mid day swims in the sea of green and gold.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Ian Sane on April 12, 2010, 06:30:39 PM
Quote
3.) No time for New I.P.'s 4.) 3rd party Relations
It's very good to hear that Nintendo acknowledges these. These two things would be my big beef with Nintendo these days. Yeah there are other problems but these are the big ones. They could fix everything else but if these two were still the way they are it would make little difference. The only problem is that these were problems before the Wii made it big. It was stuff that needed to be addressed a LONG time ago. But I'm just happy to see Nintendo acknowledging that they need to fix stuff up, even though they're in first place. 700 items? If I listed 700 items I would be accused of trolling.
It seemed like with the Wii Nintendo didn't acknowledge any of their problems, they just targetted this new market that wouldn't know the difference and sidestepped the whole issue. My concern was that they didn't learn from their mistakes because they found a way to succeed without fixing them.
Now I guess it all depends on if they actually address these items. If they do, the Wii 2 will be the obvious slam-dunk choice for both non-gamers and core gamers. A Nintendo that doesn't shoot itself in the foot will be like the Galactus of videogame companies.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Guitar Smasher on April 12, 2010, 08:04:31 PM
It seemed like with the Wii Nintendo didn't acknowledge any of their problems, they just targetted this new market that wouldn't know the difference and sidestepped the whole issue. My concern was that they didn't learn from their mistakes because they found a way to succeed without fixing them.
Except that they acknowledged their very biggest problem - increased competition and a shrinking market - and found a way to succeed despite industry proclamations of their doom.
You ignored this problem, and ironically, the fact that they found huge success will likely make it easier for them to address the problems you see. Like you said, if they keep aiming for those missed opportunities, Wii2 could be huge.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: nickmitch on April 12, 2010, 08:34:55 PM
15) US fans still bitching about Earthbound 2.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Shaymin on April 12, 2010, 08:52:59 PM
16) Have the Rolling Stones killed 17) Along with Matt Cassamawhateverthehellhisnameis 18) Diving board for money pit is loose
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 13, 2010, 07:37:24 PM
Nintendo's main problem is they experienced explosive growth and weren't really ready for it. They went from the 3rd place GC to 1st place practically overnight, and they didn't have the infrastructure and everything they needed in place in order to accommodate that. It would be kinda like some kid running a lemonade stand one day, and the next they're the CEO of Minute Maid.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on April 13, 2010, 07:42:08 PM
Nintendo "hey we dont need to be everyones first pick of console, buy our console as your second console"
Xbox Owners have Wiis too PS3 owners have Wiis Wii owners buy 2 Wiis for different rooms
hey wait a second...if all those people owned a Wii..........they'd be the most sold system.
and thats what happened. Totally planned.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 13, 2010, 07:58:04 PM
Nintendo "hey we dont need to be everyones first pick of console, buy our console as your second console"
Xbox Owners have Wiis too PS3 owners have Wiis Wii owners buy 2 Wiis for different rooms
hey wait a second...if all those people owned a Wii..........they'd be the most sold system.
and thats what happened. Totally planned.
It's exactly what we (myself included) called would happen when all the devs and analyst were saying that Wii would be everyone's second console. I'm sure if someone were to look hard enough, there are many quotes basically saying
"If 2/3's of 360 owners bought a Wii and 2/3 of PS3 owners bought a Wii and everyone else that was gonna buy a Wii bought a Wii, wouldn't that make Wii a distant first place even if you combined the 360 & PS3 totals?"
Everyone saw it coming, but couldn't admit to the writing on the wall. it's was so obvious what was about to happen that the analyst and devs didn't see it coming even though they were repeating it over and over again.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on April 14, 2010, 02:05:54 AM
i remember when that talk was going around, and i did the math right away and I LOLed, Reggie Iwata and Miyamoto all sit in an office as the money printing machine is rolled in.
I just looked and saw they only did two N64 games. One was pretty good though, Pokémon Puzzle League. They also made the GameCube launch game Wave Race: Blue Storm, which was pretty good. Actually, most of their games have been pretty good.
Yeah, I thought they made the original Wave Race and 1080, but I guess they didn't. But they did a good job in making both their sequels better than the originals.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 24, 2010, 03:31:44 AM
I thought now would be a good time to bump this thread with all these Reggie & Iwata interviews about fixing Nintendo's 700 problems.
Revamping the entire online system Asking 3rd parties for input on what they want in the 3DS Accounts over Friends codes and System ties Much improved graphics provided by shaders none the least feedback from E3 on possible design tweaks.... (3D video chat) and the list goes on and on and on.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 24, 2010, 05:03:38 AM
I'm glad that Nintendo is asking third parties for input on the 3DS, but that was something they had already done before with the original DS, so it isn't like they were addressing a problem that already existed. In fact, I read somewhere the DS name actually stands for Developer System because Nintendo designed it completely with developers in mind. Now, if only they would ask 3rd parties for input on the Wii and its successor... that's where the problem lies.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 24, 2010, 05:16:34 AM
3DS is a start of Nintendo on a new path.
They've led Sony & MS astray into the Blue Ocean looking for Curly's treasure. Now Nintendo needs to double back to Core Cove and dig up the treasure they left behind. DS may have stood for Developers System, but Nintendo didn't actually ask Developers what they wanted, they just did what they thought was best for them without their input.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Stratos on June 24, 2010, 05:26:18 AM
I recall their reasoning for referring to the DS as the developer's system was because they loaded it with 'special features' like the mic and touch screen and wi-fi that were like different tools for an artist to make a great work however they wanted.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Louieturkey on June 24, 2010, 03:08:17 PM
Meh, they steered M$ far into the blue ocean and their boat sunk before they could cast their first net. Sony was a bit smarter and it only out about 20 feet from the shore. I think Sony didn't jump as far into the ocean and so their rope is tethered to the core shore. Don't expect Nintendo to be able to get all of the treasure.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Ian Sane on June 24, 2010, 04:45:40 PM
The DS is a very different approach than the Wii was which is probably why the DS has very strong third party support and the Wii does not.
If you were to make a conventional update to the GBA you would up the specs, make it capable of polygons instead of focusing so much on sprites, add online support, and refine the controls. It would like going from the SNES to the N64. Well if you take away the touchscreen and the mic and that's what you've got. The DS is a very conventional update to the GBA only it also has all these extra nifty doodads.
The Wii is only a minor hardware update to the Gamecube. It doesn't add or refine the controls but attempts to completely replace them. It's online capabilities are the only conventional upgrade. It's as if the DS replaced the d-pad and buttons with the touchscreen and mic and was barely more powerful than the GBA. Which model is more developer friendly? The DS provides options and that's what a true developer's system would do.
The 3DS is also a conventional update to the DS. The same controls are there and the hardware boost is significant as it looks like at the very least we're going from N64 to Gamecube. Even if someone has no interest in using the 3D effect there is a clear incentive to make a game for it. It's a coventional update with some nifty new stuff thrown. So you can make the same sort of stuff you've made for portable games before or you can do something different. It has flexibility. It has options. It's a developer's system.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 24, 2010, 04:52:43 PM
The Wii is only a minor hardware update to the Gamecube. It doesn't add or refine the controls but attempts to completely replace them. It's online capabilities are the only conventional upgrade. It's as if the DS replaced the d-pad and buttons with the touchscreen and mic and was barely more powerful than the GBA.
Except that the standard Wii controller still has a d-pad, analog stick, and buttons.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Plugabugz on June 24, 2010, 05:16:29 PM
The Wii is only a minor hardware update to the Gamecube. It doesn't add or refine the controls but attempts to completely replace them. It's online capabilities are the only conventional upgrade. It's as if the DS replaced the d-pad and buttons with the touchscreen and mic and was barely more powerful than the GBA.
Except that the standard Wii controller still has a d-pad, analog stick, and buttons.
But inside the context (or crutch, depending who you ask) of the Wii Remote.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 24, 2010, 05:22:27 PM
From what I've read on wikipedia about the 3DS, it has been said to be "far more powerful than the Wii". If that's the case, then porting Wii games to it shouldn't a problem, nor should it be a problem to port PS2 etc. games to it as well. So we might see a lot of that being done by third parties, which won't necessarily be a bad thing provided new features and/or content is added instead of it just being a direct 1:1 port. But I'm curious as to how much "far more powerful than the Wii" it is. If its on par with the 360/PS3 then its going to be a beast of a system in handheld form, which may signal the end of console gaming.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Adrock on June 24, 2010, 05:30:43 PM
I highly doubt 3DS is anywhere near on par with PS3/360. Th shaders and small screen may blur bridge the gap, but in terms of horsepower, no way. I highly doubt Nintendo has 512MB of RAM in there. I'd like to see at least 128MB though.
I recall their reasoning for referring to the DS as the developer's system was because they loaded it with 'special features' like the mic and touch screen and wi-fi that were like different tools for an artist to make a great work however they wanted.
I think the difference here is that they didn't ask 3rd parties what they'd like to see in the DS. Nintendo chose the tools. I imagine the slide pad was created based on 3rd party feedback. Nintendo developed it in-house at the behest of 3rd parties. I'm not stating a fact, mind you. I just think that's probably how it went down.
That said, the next couple months may bring even more changes. We know the design isn't final and Nintendo actively sought feedback from 3rd parties. If 3rd parties can justify changes/additions in a way that improves game design, I think, now more than ever, Nintendo is more likely to entertain the thought.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Ian Sane on June 24, 2010, 06:21:39 PM
Quote
Except that the standard Wii controller still has a d-pad, analog stick, and buttons.
Yeah but it's like if instead of the DS having 4 face buttons it had only 1 with the assumption being that the touchscreen would make up for the lost button. The DS controls just built onto the GBA's. Nothing was removed, only added. You can't just play a Gamecube game on the Wii controller. The idea is that the remote's unique features are supposed to replace the functionality that came before it.
The Wii forces you to try something different while the DS gives you the OPTION to to try something different. The proof is in the pudding. Both systems are the clear market leaders yet the DS has very good third party support and the Wii has arguably worse third party support than even the Gamecube. The Wii is the ONLY market leading console to have the worst third party support of it's generation. That suggests to me that Nintendo did something wrong that they did correctly with the DS and this seems like the likely scenario.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on June 24, 2010, 06:24:27 PM
i hope Wii's successor has more buttons. The idea of a button for doing something may be dated, but the idea of a button switching between what your doing is not.
(http://i48.tinypic.com/21e7uhe.jpg)
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 24, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
Yeah but it's like if instead of the DS having 4 face buttons it had only 1 with the assumption being that the touchscreen would make up for the lost button. The DS controls just built onto the GBA's. Nothing was removed, only added. You can't just play a Gamecube game on the Wii controller. The idea is that the remote's unique features are supposed to replace the functionality that came before it.
Actually, C-stick aside, the Wii controller is only one button less than GC. In that respect wiimote is only slightly less functional, and this missing functionality is made up by the pointer/accelerometer/gyroscope inputs. Sure, you could add another button but that isn't going to solve the 3rd party situation. And you can play GC games with a Wii controller. Prime Trilogy demonstrates this, as does Mario Galaxy. I'm actually curious now, can you name a GC game that wouldn't be possible on Wii, even with small adaptations (other than fighters; I've heard you use this one a million times)?
Quote
The Wii forces you to try something different while the DS gives you the OPTION to to try something different. The proof is in the pudding. Both systems are the clear market leaders yet the DS has very good third party support and the Wii has arguably worse third party support than even the Gamecube. The Wii is the ONLY market leading console to have the worst third party support of it's generation. That suggests to me that Nintendo did something wrong that they did correctly with the DS and this seems like the likely scenario.
I would not blame the 3rd party situation on the controller. It might have been a factor in select instances, but almost all games are playable using the Wii setup, as evidenced by the wide representation of various genres. In fact, I remember hearing a whole lot of developers get excited when the controller was originally revealed.
The main culprit behind the poor support was the perception that "only casual gamers play Wii, and they only buy crappy party games". And it's still a misconception, explaining why Reggie has to interrupt his 'presentation of a lifetime' to remind us that Wii is still outselling the other consoles combined, and that Wii gets played more by its owners.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: SixthAngel on June 25, 2010, 04:19:54 AM
The Wii forces you to try something different while the DS gives you the OPTION to to try something different. The proof is in the pudding. Both systems are the clear market leaders yet the DS has very good third party support and the Wii has arguably worse third party support than even the Gamecube.
There is no proof of cause, the situations are incredibly different. Just because a friend called me when I drank a beer doesn't mean he called me because I drank a beer. The Wii/DS situations were different from the start, including competition and the systems that they followed.
The Wii is the ONLY market leading console to have the worst third party support of it's generation. That suggests to me that Nintendo did something wrong that they did correctly with the DS and this seems like the likely scenario.
This suggests to me that 3rd parties have been doing something wrong. Nintendo created the most successful home console ever, I don't see how we can blame them when other companies are too inept to cash in on it.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on June 25, 2010, 05:28:09 AM
i blame third parties, bunch of namby pambies
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Ian Sane on June 25, 2010, 12:45:19 PM
The third party support isn't just the controller. I think that's a smaller part anyway. It's more the fact that the hardware is so much weaker than the other consoles. The Wii wasn't a conventional update while the DS was.
Quote
There is no proof of cause, the situations are incredibly different. Just because a friend called me when I drank a beer doesn't mean he called me because I drank a beer.
I think that's a pretty weak analogy. I see this more like if I had different training regiments for two different races and in one race I did really well and in the other I didn't. That suggests that my training regiment might be the source of the problem. The Wii's third party support SUCKS. Don't you think it might be a little bit more productive for Nintendo to look at what they did and try to make a connection than to just assume that third parties suck and hate Nintendo (but only on consoles for some reason)? How is this going to improve next gen if Nintendo just completely denies all fault and does nothing?
Quote
Actually, C-stick aside, the Wii controller is only one button less than GC. In that respect wiimote is only slightly less functional, and this missing functionality is made up by the pointer/accelerometer/gyroscope inputs.
When you're making a game what would you rather hear? 1. It's the same as before but we also have added this. 2. It's missing this and this but we added that which should make up for the lack of this.
As a computer programmer, I don't make games, but I would vastly prefer option 1. Option 2 is telling me how to do my job and makes big assumptions about how I want to use the hardware.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 25, 2010, 02:47:36 PM
The third party support isn't just the controller. I think that's a smaller part anyway. It's more the fact that the hardware is so much weaker than the other consoles. The Wii wasn't a conventional update while the DS was.
Seems to me that the DS is 'so much weaker' than PSP. But certain devs have complained about Wii's power, so I guess you can't really compare handhelds and consoles.
Quote
Quote
Actually, C-stick aside, the Wii controller is only one button less than GC. In that respect wiimote is only slightly less functional, and this missing functionality is made up by the pointer/accelerometer/gyroscope inputs.
When you're making a game what would you rather hear? 1. It's the same as before but we also have added this. 2. It's missing this and this but we added that which should make up for the lack of this.
As a computer programmer, I don't make games, but I would vastly prefer option 1. Option 2 is telling me how to do my job and makes big assumptions about how I want to use the hardware.
Again, I remember a whole lot of excitement from devs when the wiimote was unveiled. Come to think of it, I can't remember a single instance where one complained that it was missing a c-stick or a GC button. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: MegaByte on June 25, 2010, 03:35:48 PM
Actually, C-stick aside, the Wii controller is only one button less than GC.
Yeah, no. Most of the buttons aren't readily accessible simultaneously.
Yeah, they are.
Wii: A, +, -, B, Z, C = 6 easily accessible buttons.
GC: A, B, X, Y, L, R, Z = 7 easily accessible buttons.
Notice how I didn't mention the d-pad which is more accessible on wiimote?
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Dirk Temporo on June 25, 2010, 04:05:22 PM
If you honestly think that the D-Pad is more accessible on the Wii Remote, or that the + and - buttons even COUNT as "easily accessible," then you my friend have freaky monkey hands.
I'm sorry, buttons that are literally UNDER YOUR PALM when playing a game are not "accessible" at all, never mind easily.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Stratos on June 25, 2010, 05:12:30 PM
Those buttons are only easily accessible for me when you hold it 'classic style'. When you hold it 'wand' style it becomes tricky to precisely press buttons.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Adrock on June 25, 2010, 05:21:47 PM
If you honestly think that the D-Pad is more accessible on the Wii Remote, or that the + and - buttons even COUNT as "easily accessible," then you my friend have freaky monkey hands.
I'm sorry, buttons that are literally UNDER YOUR PALM when playing a game are not "accessible" at all, never mind easily.
Yeah, I agree. I can hit the + and - buttons okay, but I have to adjust my grip on the controller to reach the D-pad. And forget about 1 and 2 when using the Wii remote with the nunchuck.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Pale on June 25, 2010, 05:53:20 PM
Actually, C-stick aside, the Wii controller is only one button less than GC.
Yeah, no. Most of the buttons aren't readily accessible simultaneously.
Yeah, they are.
Wii: A, +, -, B, Z, C = 6 easily accessible buttons.
GC: A, B, X, Y, L, R, Z = 7 easily accessible buttons.
Notice how I didn't mention the d-pad which is more accessible on wiimote?
But you also counted + and - which are far from easily accessible. They are more in line with start and select buttons and thus shouldn't be counted for gameplay.
As for this argument, I definitely agree that the Wii and DS are different monsters. There is no viable (with significant marketshare) competition to the DS. The third parties really have nowhere else to go.
I also totally agree that it's the horse power, not the controller, that make third parties hate Wii. Everyone thinks you can magically just make Wii games but that is just not the case in practice. Teams are built around using certain modern technologies and ideas. That is what they are most efficient making. That is a factor in a cost benefit analysis. If EA can churn out Dead Space on both 360 and PS3 in a cheaper way than it can on Wii because of their current infrastructure and team skills, they will most likely make more money given that the combined marketshare of PS3 and 360 isn't that far behind Wii.
And please don't just discount my comments by saying games require lesser budgets to make on Wii because it isn't Hi Def blah blah blah. The reason most of you hate third party games on Wii is because they are of low quality, so if we are going to imagine a world where third parties are putting out big time games, we should assume they are of similar quality as those on the other consoles.
tl;dr version: We all know the Wii is kicking ass in the market. Imagine how far behind PS3 and 360 would be if the specs of the Wii were at least somewhat competitive. Then people wouldn't have near as many reasons to buy the competition.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Ian Sane on June 25, 2010, 06:02:40 PM
Quote
Again, I remember a whole lot of excitement from devs when the wiimote was unveiled.
But that clearly was all just talk since none of them has expressed this excitement in the form of actual games.
I would consider the Wii controller to be the remote and the nunchuk. You get 1 analog stick, 1 d-pad, 3 trigger buttons, 1 face button. On the Gamecube you have 2 analog sticks, 1 d-pad, 3 trigger buttons and 4 face buttons. The + and - buttons are what I would consider administrative buttons like the start button on the Cube. They are not designed to be easily accessible in the heat of the moment. Buttons 1&2 also do not count because they are clearly designed to be used either as administrative buttons or as replacements for A&B when used in sideways mode.
The Cube d-pad isn't so hot but it is accessible in the heat of the moment. Even if you exclude it then the C-stick and Wii d-pad could be considered equals. That still leaves THREE MISSING BUTTONS. That's a big fucking deal. Yeah I guess you could make a shake of the nunchuk one and a shake of the remote another but you're still down one. On the Cube you could use the d-pad as a makeshift four more buttons for lesser used functions. Even if you use 1&2 or one of the - button you're still missing at least one more button and at this point you're using buttons located under the palm.
As a game developer I wouldn't even be cool with mapping analog stick movement to a d-pad or vice versa. My game's controls are going to suffer. Mapping a gesture is less precise than a button so if I have to do that I'm compromising my controls even more. But with the DS everything from the GBA is there plus I have two more face buttons and a touchscreen. Now they're adding an analog stick thingy. It just gives me more options.
I think when courting devs if you have to give an excuse you've failed. "Well you could do this..." Yeah, **** that ****. If you're really designing something developer friendly you don't have to point out the values of this or that. You just show it and it speaks for itself. The 3DS does this. I don't see any excuses. Just knowing what it is gives me confidence in it. I know it won't have control issues, I can tell from the screenshots that we're looking at a major hardware updrade even if a game doesn't use the 3D effect. It wows me and I haven't even seen the 3D effect yet. Because it just builds on what has been there since 1989 I don't have to re-invent the wheel or change how I approach game design. If I'm making a game I can do what I did before or I can do something new.
With the Wii you had to rethink how you approached the controls and you could not use improved hardware to do new things. I look at the DS, 3DS, PS3 and X360 as taking an empty field and making it bigger. The Wii was taking a football field and turning it into a baseball diamond.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 25, 2010, 06:30:27 PM
If you honestly think that the D-Pad is more accessible on the Wii Remote, or that the + and - buttons even COUNT as "easily accessible," then you my friend have freaky monkey hands.
You can reach the d-pad without taking your thumb off the control stick, unlike GC.
+/- aren't ideal for action buttons, but they don't require much effort to reach.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 25, 2010, 06:35:43 PM
Dirk, how could you NOT find the d-pad easily accessible on the Wii Remote? Unless your hands are freaky small (like the size of a 4-year old), then your thumb EASILY can reach the d-pad without moving your hand. Even the + and - buttons can be reached without too much effort.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 25, 2010, 06:44:31 PM
Again, I remember a whole lot of excitement from devs when the wiimote was unveiled.
But that clearly was all just talk since none of them has expressed this excitement in the form of actual games.
Again, correlation does not equal causation. Just because they don't make games, doesn't mean they don't approve of the controller! If they didn't like it, why wouldn't they say so?
With regards to the rest of your post, I'm not going to disagree with most of your points. But I do disagree with how "limited" the overall controller is. I keep coming back to a single thought: Metroid Prime - a GC game that uses every button on the controller - was ported to Wii with improved controls. Obviously one example does not cover the whole spectrum of games, but clearly the Wiimote is capable of controlling 95% of games that came before it. With everyone disagreeing with me over its functionality, I've yet to have someone name a game that couldn't be played on it (outside of your traditional fighters).
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Dirk Temporo on June 25, 2010, 06:51:15 PM
Dirk, how could you NOT find the d-pad easily accessible on the Wii Remote? Unless your hands are freaky small (like the size of a 4-year old), then your thumb EASILY can reach the d-pad without moving your hand. Even the + and - buttons can be reached without too much effort.
With your hand in an ergonomic grasping position (ie: not the way most men hold beer cans) excepting the possibility that you have mutant thumbs, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to reach any buttons on the D-Pad besides the bottom one without moving your grip, and while you don't have to move your grip to access + or -, they're still well out of the way of being "easily accessible," which is why they have been relegated to pause/menu features. And 1 and 2 are completely non-existent if you're using the nunchuk.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Adrock on June 25, 2010, 06:56:40 PM
I have pretty small hands and I can only reach down on the D-pad without having to adjust.
You can reach the d-pad without taking your thumb off the control stick, unlike GC.
In that case, the d-pad on the Wii remote is more comparable to the c-stick on the Gamecube controller so that's not really a fair comparison. I'd honestly much rather have another analog stick than a D-pad.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Mop it up on June 25, 2010, 07:16:54 PM
I'm glad we have both an analogue stick and D-pad. Some games simply don't work with analogue; playing Tetris and other puzzle games is a nightmare with that.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Sarail on June 25, 2010, 07:19:10 PM
I still think a "breakaway" controller would be amazing for the next console...
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on June 25, 2010, 08:24:15 PM
have you noticed that when some third parties talk about the wii they talk about the controller as if the nunchuck doesn't exist?...its kinda strange
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 25, 2010, 09:37:20 PM
You can reach the d-pad without taking your thumb off the control stick, unlike GC.
In that case, the d-pad on the Wii remote is more comparable to the c-stick on the Gamecube controller so that's not really a fair comparison. I'd honestly much rather have another analog stick than a D-pad.
Another stick in the place of the d-pad would be almost unusable given the design of the wiimote. And I wouldn't get to play NSMBWii with a d-pad!
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on June 25, 2010, 10:06:28 PM
this has reminded me that in the next console they should have a much better charging situation. I have had all sorts of problems with charging. First rechargeable batteries get pretty good lasting times, but if your living with evil roommates, than they have the possibility of disappearing. The only thing i could do is get pissed, because nobody would admit to it. This happened to me, so i bought a charger stand deal, and it was fucking broken out of the box and i had to take it back. I wish i could just charge the next systems controller via usb cable or something.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Adrock on June 26, 2010, 01:33:36 PM
Another stick in the place of the d-pad would be almost unusable given the design of the wiimote. And I wouldn't get to play NSMBWii with a d-pad!
Classic Controller. Or the Nunchuck could be redesigned to include a D-pad. It may not be as pretty, but form follows function.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 27, 2010, 08:31:08 AM
The only real purpose the D-pad serves in modern games is a means to conveniently cycle through your items and equipment. In times past you needed to either have a button dedicated to changing your items, or you had to hit start and go to the menu and then change the item from there. The <-- and --> as well as up and down allows you to more easily cycle through the stuff.
In my experience that's pretty much all the D-pad is good for anymore.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Adrock on June 27, 2010, 10:46:24 AM
I'm still partial to using the D-pad for 2D games so putting one on the Wii remote which is primarily held in my right hand fails to serve a purpose. Yeah, turning the Wii remote sideways fixes that "problem" but so does putting a D-pad on the Nunchuck. Sony's Navigation Controller is a prime example of form before function. I can't imagine the D-pad on that thing being comfortable to use at all concurrently with the analog stick. It seems like you have to choose one or the other. Still, if any company can come up with a competent and comfortable design, it's Nintendo.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on June 27, 2010, 06:05:28 PM
yeah, i did a mockup of that years ago when the wii was first announced
The only real purpose the D-pad serves in modern games is a means to conveniently cycle through your items and equipment. In my experience that's pretty much all the D-pad is good for anymore.
I guess you don't play Tetris or other puzzle games. Or fighters.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 27, 2010, 09:44:58 PM
The analog stick is great for the majority of fighting games. The only games I agree work better with a d-pad are puzzle games.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on June 27, 2010, 10:08:14 PM
I prefer fighting games that use the analog stick.
Soul Calibur and Smash Bros are my favorite modern fighting series at this time. Soul Calibur feels so good and intuitive.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Adrock on June 28, 2010, 12:58:10 AM
2D fighting games (Smash Bros. doesn't count) work better with a D-pad.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 28, 2010, 01:02:29 AM
The only real purpose the D-pad serves in modern games is a means to conveniently cycle through your items and equipment. In my experience that's pretty much all the D-pad is good for anymore.
I guess you don't play Tetris or other puzzle games. Or fighters.
Did you notice how I said Modern Games? Tetris is from about 1986, IIRC.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Mop it up on June 28, 2010, 01:16:11 AM
Groovin' Blocks would be a nightmare with an analogue stick.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 28, 2010, 05:18:26 AM
True, but you could use the motion controller to turn the blocks around.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Ian Sane on June 28, 2010, 01:39:00 PM
Quote
I keep coming back to a single thought: Metroid Prime - a GC game that uses every button on the controller - was ported to Wii with improved controls. Obviously one example does not cover the whole spectrum of games, but clearly the Wiimote is capable of controlling 95% of games that came before it.
But the DS can handle 100% of portable games that came before it and the 3DS can also handle 100%. Why settle for 95%? And I think 95% is too high of an estimate. Even then you're mapping apples to oranges and shoehorning stuff to get it to work. The DS model of adding to what it is already there is just so vastly superior. With that model of controller design there is no shoehorning, there is no substitutions and there is no incompatibility. If you asked me to choose between anything where it was 100% and 95% I would never EVER pick the 95% if I didn't have to. It's all excuses. No one wants to hear excuses if they don't have to.
Quote
The only real purpose the D-pad serves in modern games is a means to conveniently cycle through your items and equipment. In times past you needed to either have a button dedicated to changing your items, or you had to hit start and go to the menu and then change the item from there. The <-- and --> as well as up and down allows you to more easily cycle through the stuff.
In my experience that's pretty much all the D-pad is good for anymore.
That's poor controller design. Don't make assumptions about what the developer wants to do. The d-pad has been there for 25 years and devs are used to it being there. Even if most modern games don't use it, it can be used for other things. You never know if tomorrow someone comes up with this great new concept and it needs the d-pad and will work like complete crap with an analog stick (and the funny thing is Nintendo loves the d-pad these days). Digital input is more precise than analog input. The range of input analog can provide can be very useful but sometimes you just want on/off. If you're thinking "well you shouldn't need this" or "this will make up for that" that's not flexible design. You're telling devs what they want. Give them what they want plus more.
If you're making a videogame system you want every genre to play well on it and every developer to want to make games for it. There is no benefit in just turning developers away or making entire genres virtually non-existant on your console (something that EVERY Nintendo console since the N64 has had a problem with). You can say that a d-pad is only good for fighters. Well why throw away that entire genre when you don't have to?
I don't see any argument being made that adding to what is already there is a bad thing. I don't see any argument that the DS approach is flawed or inferior, merely that the Wii approach isn't that bad. Is the DS approach not BETTER? Would we not want Nintendo to go with whatever approach is BEST on their next console?
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on June 28, 2010, 03:19:29 PM
there is a classic controller if people want to play those games, sure they have to go out and buy it, but if they really like those games than they should. They should still make those games for Wii Controls with the option for classic. There is no difference shoving extra buttons on a controller to try to appease a market, than to include a second controller option in the long run.
There is a reason there is no d-pad on the nunchuck and that is because you need resistance to press buttons and if the nunchuck is not attached to something you don't have this resistance. The easiest improvement would just be to include 4 number buttons on the next iteration instead of just 1 and 2 then you could have better sideways play. You know the company when releasing each generation of stuff purposely holds back some stuff just so it would seem there is an improvement the next generation. There would be no demand sometimes if they didn't create it.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Ian Sane on June 28, 2010, 04:55:28 PM
Quote
there is a classic controller if people want to play those games, sure they have to go out and buy it, but if they really like those games than they should.
But that games don't get made in the first place because the classic controller is an optional accessory. I have a classic controller but it hardly gets used because it isn't very well supported. And it isn't well supported because it doesn't come with the system.
If I could play NSMB Wii and Wario Land with the classic controller, I would, but the option isn't even available. Having the CC as optional also means that no one designs games with it in mind. Lets say you wanted these four functions that normally you would map to the CC face buttons. But you can't get this to work well with the remote-nunchuk combo. Well then you scrap one of those functions. You can't make a CC-only game so if an idea doesn't work with the remote-nunchuk combo you don't bother.
That's the problem with the Wii from a developer standpoint. If you can't get it to work with the controller or you can't get it to work on the weaker hardware, you just scrap the idea and not bother. And then there are these two other consoles that don't have those restrictions so you can just make your game for them, which happens 99% of the time. The only restriction those consoles have is they don't have motion control... which they now do have. Even if you discount Kinect, the PS3 offers a developer exactly the same thing the Wii has... plus MORE. So why make your game on the Wii? It has the bigger market share but that has had zero effect thus far. From a business perspective you would assume that the most dev friendly design wouldn't hold so much weight but the thing is, it isn't as if you HAVE to support the market leader to make money. If you can still make a profit on another console then other factors are going to affect your decision.
It may be that, even with the Wii being the market leader, you do not feel that you can make a hit game within the restrictions of the hardware. But you do feel you can make a hit game on the other consoles and as long as you make a profit, then you've succeeded. Although I think there's some laziness there, the HD consoles offer what you already know so you can plan things the way you are used to.
I think the Wii puts a developer in the mindframe of "okay what game can I make to work with this?" That's a challenging way to approach things. I think a more conventional approach is that a dev thinks of a game he wants to make and then decides what hardware to make it for. The DS initially had some piss-poor games and they were piss-poor because the touchscreen usage was forced. It was clear that devs were approaching the DS with the intention of making good use of the touchscreen. The PSP had the better games at first because it was conventional. But then the DS library vastly improved once devs just started making great games, instead of specifically trying to use the unique features. Maybe this game uses the touchscreen, maybe it doesn't. Who cares? The DS had that flexibility. You just made the game and using the touchscreen was as optional as using the X button.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on June 28, 2010, 06:53:46 PM
to be honest there aren't a lot of games i want to play on a classic controller. If Zelda, Mario Galaxy, and Resident Evil 4 work on the Wii controller than all sorts of hardcore games work.
The games that don't work...well don't make games like that. I mean classic fighters are on virtual console already...so classic controller
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Ian Sane on June 28, 2010, 07:22:38 PM
Quote
The games that don't work...well don't make games like that.
Well, that's the whole issue I have with it. What sort of dev wants to hear THAT?
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on June 28, 2010, 07:35:12 PM
a dev who makes unoriginal games
some of the heavy hitting games that we don't get could be made on Wii without messing with the controls much. There is a clear bias against Nintendo no matter how good the system is. Gamecube had way better graphics and identical controls and it still didn't get every third party game. One could say that the graphics are why Wii doesn't get good games, but that wasn't a factor for ps2. Back in the day they would argue it was because ps2 was the market leader....ok so Nintendo is in their position and they are still getting jipped. Although, to be honest, it isn't effecting Nintendo as much as third parties. Third parties are shooting themselves in the foot with their incompetence, compete bitches!
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 28, 2010, 09:00:38 PM
Monster Hunter Tri was designed with the CC in mind. In fact, so much so that it was actually bundled with it.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 28, 2010, 09:02:14 PM
I think Nintendo actually designed the Classic Controller Pro just for Monster Hunter Tri.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 29, 2010, 03:04:07 AM
Right off hand I know Smash Bros. and Endless Ocean 2 make use of the CC as an optional input method. Those are just the ones I can recall offhand, and I'm sure many more exist.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Dasmos on June 29, 2010, 03:37:07 AM
He's talking about the Classic Controller Pro, the revision.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Mop it up on June 29, 2010, 03:40:01 AM
And yet, Monster Hunter Tri still uses the Wii Remote's pointer for a couple of things. It's really poor design.
Endless Ocean does not play well with the Classic Controller.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 29, 2010, 03:44:36 AM
The funny thing is, there are a lot of games that should have Classic Controller support but don't, and then there are games like Resident Evil 4 and Pro Evolution Soccer, and now Sin & Punishment 2, which are significantly improved by their Wii controls but still include the option for the inferior Classic Controller.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on June 29, 2010, 04:53:44 AM
what about monster hunter can't be done on the wii remote?
up would be triangle, down would be x, right would be circle, left would be square, a would be right top shoulder, b would be right left shoulder, plus and minus could be pause menus, C and Z would be shoulders, and the joystick would be the joystick, if they use the clicks then just rotate some things and use button combinations. 1 and 2 could even do something else. I haven't even gotten into motion control functionality.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Mop it up on June 30, 2010, 06:02:20 PM
If the D-pad takes the place of the face buttons, then what could take the function of the D-pad? The game also uses both analogue sticks. There's a difference between a control setup which functions and a control setup which works well. Monster Hunter Tri has a Wii Remote and Nunchuk option, but it doesn't work very well due to tack-on motion control and too much doubling up on buttons.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on June 30, 2010, 07:02:30 PM
i had forgotten about dual analog-ish controlls when i just listed that button map, that throws in a wrench
not a fan of dual analog control setups anyways :P
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Mop it up on July 01, 2010, 02:32:23 AM
I'm not a fan of dual-analogue either. Monster Hunter has clunky controls any way you slice it, but the Classic Controller is the best option.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Stratos on July 01, 2010, 05:40:45 AM
Having a simple lock-on mechanic with a button to cycle targets would have solved a lot of Tri's control issues.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Mop it up on July 01, 2010, 06:43:05 PM
Which type of lock-on, a character lock-on or a camera lock-on? I think a character lock on would restrict movement too much. A camera lock-on, which centers the camera on the monster and rotates around it, would have been very ideal, as well as zooming in/out based on distance from it.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Stratos on July 02, 2010, 07:34:10 PM
That's what I had in mind. It's a pain when a monster rushes past you and you have to wait for the slow camera to turn around to face it again. It's easy to lose sight of your prey.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Arbok on July 02, 2010, 10:09:08 PM
The games that don't work...well don't make games like that.
Well, that's the whole issue I have with it. What sort of dev wants to hear THAT?
Frankly speaking, that's what many should be hearing though. Over time, controllers have gotten way too complicated. We (i.e. those of us posting on these forums) have grown up with them and are used to them, so it's not an issue to us.
To others it is, and there is a large group of consumers who just can't get into games because of complexity in controls. A game should be easy and fast to learn, but complex enough to challenge and make the experience rich.
Wii Sports does this. Mario Kart Wii does this. New Super Mario Bros Wii does this. Their controls are simple, allowing someone to pick it up and play with little instructions, but the depth is there to back it up. We need more games like that. Having watched my girlfriend (who was a relapsed gamer) struggle and get frustrated trying to master the learning curve of a game has opened my eyes that the industry needs to step back and rethink a few things.
Not all games should be simple of course, but far too many fall into the complex category. A lot of developers could benefit from stepping back and asking themselves "is there a way I could make this less complex to control?"
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Crimm on July 03, 2010, 05:59:28 PM
Having watched my girlfriend (who was a relapsed gamer) struggle and get frustrated trying to master the learning curve of a game has opened my eyes that the industry needs to step back and rethink a few things.
But she's a girl! You can't base your entire opinion on her. She has a genetic predisposition to simply not be very good at videogames... and football... and carpentry.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on July 04, 2010, 03:15:10 AM
Hopefully, Retro has something announced at e3 that will make us cream our pants.
Just wondering...
nope im still waiting, Retro team B?
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 04, 2010, 11:38:42 AM
I think the key is realizing complicated games with depth do not have to be complicated to control.
However, many games add needless moves, and complexity that do nothing to truly add to the gameplay of a game. I was playing Modern Warfare 2, and I was confused why I had to push a button to run. We have analog controllers, build it into that control, and it would have been easier to grasp and play. That is just one of the many ways that First Person shooters, a genre that should be simple to design and play with limited buttons, is just too complicated and does not add anything new or fun with the complexity.
I challenge anyone that says Super Mario Galaxy isn't complex or rich with its gameplay, but it is also very approachable.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Dirk Temporo on July 04, 2010, 02:59:27 PM
There's a reason the standard has changed. It's easier to push a button to sprint than it is to try and measure how far you're pushing on an analog stick with a grand total of about an inch of flexibility.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on July 04, 2010, 03:37:49 PM
i think if you told the shooter creators about how you could use analog for running it would blow their minds!
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 05, 2010, 02:06:00 AM
Having watched my girlfriend (who was a relapsed gamer) struggle and get frustrated trying to master the learning curve of a game has opened my eyes that the industry needs to step back and rethink a few things.
But she's a girl! You can't base your entire opinion on her. She has a genetic predisposition to simply not be very good at videogames... and football... and carpentry.
And Math. How could you forget Math?
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Ian Sane on July 05, 2010, 01:35:26 PM
If you want to make a game that only uses two buttons you can still do it on a controller with ten buttons. I have never met ANYONE who if I gave them a "complex" controller for a simple game was confused. "Move with the stick, A does this, B does that." Simple, easy, they pick it up right away. They don't get confused because X does nothing.
The thing is by forcing devs to think of simplifying their games the Wii has become the dumbed down simple game console for confused casuals. That's what every dev but Nintendo treats it as. Meanwhile the more complex games are on the consoles with controllers that give the developer the freedom to do whatever he wants.
No creative person every wants to be told what to do. No one wants to be told they have to make simpler games or simpler controls or do it this was or that way. Creative people want flexibility. I make software for a living and designing a UI that the user easily learns and understands is very important. But if the company I work for was told that we could only have these many buttons on screen or this many menu items or that we could only use one mouse button or couldn't use the keyboard we would freak. We would have to find another way because we couldn't make the software with the functionality we want with those restrictions. We work best when the development tool or the operating system or the database that gives us the flexibility to do what we want. And we don't **** it up it make a bunch of confusing bullshit either. If any of the third party tools we use prevented us from creating the software we want to make, we would switch to a different tool. So if you were a game developer and this one company is telling you how to make your games why would you ever stick with them if you didn't need to? You're going to want to go with the option that lets you make the games you want to make. And that is what everyone has done.
You need to provide flexibility just because you can't make assumptions about what third parties want to do. Nintendo can make assumptions about what types of games Nintendo wants to make but they don't know what Konami or Capcom or Square Enix wants to make and what they need. They can't assume that anyone else will be content with weaker hardware or with a very different controller. A flexible design is the only way you can safely guess anything.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Guitar Smasher on July 05, 2010, 03:11:39 PM
If you want to make a game that only uses two buttons you can still do it on a controller with ten buttons. I have never met ANYONE who if I gave them a "complex" controller for a simple game was confused. "Move with the stick, A does this, B does that." Simple, easy, they pick it up right away. They don't get confused because X does nothing.
I don't have evidence, but I very much believe Nintendo has tested this hypothesis and found different results. They certainly spoke to this point prior to the unveiling of the console.
Quote
The thing is by forcing devs to think of simplifying their games the Wii has become the dumbed down simple game console for confused casuals. That's what every dev but Nintendo treats it as. Meanwhile the more complex games are on the consoles with controllers that give the developer the freedom to do whatever he wants.
The reason "the Wii has become the dumbed down simple game console for confused casuals" is because the industry perceives the userbase to be "dumb customers who buy shallow party games". I have never read about a game being held from the console because the controller isn't capable enough. The odd time a 'core' game is adapted to use motion controls, all I hear is how "we're so excited to incorporate motion into our games" (although often they're not competent in execution). From what I've gathered, there's two main reasons why 'core' games don't make it to Wii: a) the Wii audience isn't interested in this type of game; or b) Wii isn't HD/online capable.
In my opinion you're placing way too much emphasis on the controller's limitations in an effort to explain your perceptions of the console's misgivings.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Stratos on July 05, 2010, 03:25:25 PM
If you want to make a game that only uses two buttons you can still do it on a controller with ten buttons. I have never met ANYONE who if I gave them a "complex" controller for a simple game was confused. "Move with the stick, A does this, B does that." Simple, easy, they pick it up right away. They don't get confused because X does nothing.
I don't have evidence, but I very much believe Nintendo has tested this hypothesis and found different results. They certainly spoke to this point prior to the unveiling of the console.
I remember them talking about it. And several people including my mother are intimidated by complicated controllers. It doesn't matter how much you explain the 'basic' controls. They just look at the whole controller and say "I can't do this, it looks too complicated". Some people give up too easily.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 05, 2010, 03:54:24 PM
I consider myself a hardcore gamer, but even I hate when I play a game that uses all of the Xbox 360/PlayStation 3 controllers (especially PS3 games, I still can't get used to their Playskool controller with it's symbols instead of letters), I can imagine how much worse it is for a casual gamer or someone who hasn't played games in years trying to play a game that uses 8 different buttons plus 2 analog sticks and a d-pad to play.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Stratos on July 05, 2010, 03:57:23 PM
The worst part of the Playstation controller for me is how 'x' means accept but I've grown up with Windows telling me 'x' means exit. Ugh.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 05, 2010, 04:00:35 PM
I think even some gamers got confused because some games used X to accept while others used it to exit, so some people would accidentally hit it when they didn't mean to.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Mop it up on July 05, 2010, 04:14:54 PM
The worst part of the Playstation controller for me is how 'x' means accept but I've grown up with Windows telling me 'x' means exit. Ugh.
That always bothered me so much. Especially because the first PlayStation game I played was Final Fantasy VII, which properly has Circle as select and Cross as cancel/back, so I expected other games to follow that.
There's actually sometimes similar mixups on Nintendo systems. I've run into a few games where B is accept and A is back, despite that the letters would match if it were reversed.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Ian Sane on July 05, 2010, 05:27:49 PM
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And several people including my mother are intimidated by complicated controllers. It doesn't matter how much you explain the 'basic' controls. They just look at the whole controller and say "I can't do this, it looks too complicated". Some people give up too easily.
Yeah and those people are depriving themselves of great games because they're too close-minded. And I don't really care that they do that because they bring it on themselves. If I was a videogame developer I would not give two shits about such people as long as I could still make money. There is a market of people that are willing to try games with some complexity and I can make money off of those people with the games I want to make. I think there's some personal pride here as well. If you're a developer and you love videogames and you take great pride in your creative work, why would you want to cater to people that blindly reject your work for superficial reasons? People do not react well to what they view as illegitimate criticism. And then Nintendo comes along and says they've changed the controller that YOU the developer liked in favour of a new design that people who refused to even try your games in the first place will like. That's like a heavy metal band being approach by a guitar manufacturer with a new guitar that will attract the adult comtemporary market.
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In my opinion you're placing way too much emphasis on the controller's limitations in an effort to explain your perceptions of the console's misgivings.
The topic has moved more in the direction of the controller so that's why I'm mentioning it more. No, I think the controller is just one part of developer disinterest in the Wii. It's the combination of the controller, the weaker hardware and the casual focus of Nintendo's marketing. The marketing is not a real restriction but the other two are. With the Wii, Nintendo provides an inflexible development environment. They have to address that next gen if they care at all about third party support. I think the 3DS is the right approach so Nintendo can do it and still keep the casual market.
What I find odd is that I'm getting the same arguments from some of you that I think Nintendo themselves are giving to third parties that turns them off. I see a lot of "well they should make games this way" stuff. That's the whole damn point! Developers don't want to hear that. Assume that you don't agree with Nintendo's game design philosophy and that you were a developer.
For the record I typically don't really like it when games use all the buttons as it is often done poorly. But it can also work out really well. And I find waggle games to be much worse. Having extra buttons seems to be less of a problem then not having enough.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Arbok on July 06, 2010, 05:39:09 PM
If I was a videogame developer I would not give two shits about such people as long as I could still make money.
Isn't that the problem though, making money? The recent NPD report is pretty grim, and seems to be painting a market where only the top dog and evergreen titles are succeeding. In this type of economy, developers can not and should not act so full of themselves as to turn their nose at appealing to a broader demographic.
That's like a heavy metal band being approach by a guitar manufacturer with a new guitar that will attract the adult comtemporary market.
No its not, because consumers of that band's music will never touch that guitar. You don't have to know how to play a guitar to enjoy a song. You do have to know how to play a game to enjoy it though.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on July 06, 2010, 05:52:42 PM
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Dirk Temporo on July 06, 2010, 09:05:01 PM
Somehow I don't think that an article in which Miyamoto questions the superiority of the analog stick over the D-Pad lends a whole lot to the argument that controllers are too complicated.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: Mop it up on July 06, 2010, 09:09:24 PM
That is true, but it still wasn't the first, even if the one on the Vectrex was poor quality. It would be so easy to insert the word "successful" in there, and make it "The first successful system with an analogue stick."
I would think that you of all people would care about an article getting this right.
Title: Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
Post by: ThePerm on July 07, 2010, 02:12:51 AM
