Casual gamers actually BUY their games. Meanwhile the hardcore, even when they are pleased with a game, tend to simply pirate it. So if you're hardcore send a nice thank you to TPB for destroying your niche.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Deguello on May 02, 2009, 07:13:59 AM
Well that was certainly a long slough through an article to get to the "Nintendo is doomed" conclusion.
And a "Nintendo is abandoning the hardcore" meme was a nice touch, if a little old and outdated.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Ymeegod on May 02, 2009, 11:41:32 AM
So instead of developing good games like Zelda, developers should just focus on finding the perfect title--like Carnival Games or WII Ski Alot of Fun because the casual gamers eat them up. No thanks, I like playing games that are worth my time (and no I don't believe in stealing neither even though I could).
It's a weak point, of course people pirate GOOD games? Why the hell would you download crappy titles. What we need is tougher laws, just read an article about a warehouse being raided in AC and the guy that was caught was fined 13 million and no jail time-- over the last 4 years he netted over 100 million from movies and games.
If I made a good I would make one achievement "punch a pirate in the face" 100 points.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: rbtr on May 02, 2009, 01:50:31 PM
Metroid prime pinball was cited as a hardcore game....
My grandma plays pinball. MY GRANDMA IS TEH HARDCORE!!!!!
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Deguello on May 02, 2009, 02:08:17 PM
I don't think the article means developers should stop making "good games" (although that's pretty subjective).
The point is similar to how anime fanboys complain that no new anime gets localized, when their hard drive is filled with pir-I mean... Digitally Distributed Japanese copies that have been fan-translated. A "hardcore" gamer is more likely to be a pirate than somebody new the medium.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Kairon on May 02, 2009, 02:18:49 PM
I tend to think this is true. Piracy, I suspect, has been a major force in transforming PC gaming heavily towards subscription based online models. The developers of Crysis, I think, went on record a few years ago that they HAD to go multiplatform and support consoles because piracy killed their PC exclusive sales. Interestingly enough, the casual audience on the PC have become voracious consumers, as Big Fish Games proves.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: nickmitch on May 02, 2009, 02:31:36 PM
I don't think the article means developers should stop making "good games" (although that's pretty subjective).
The point is similar to how anime fanboys complain that no new anime gets localized, when their hard drive is filled with pir-I mean... Digitally Distributed Japanese copies that have been fan-translated. A "hardcore" gamer is more likely to be a pirate than somebody new the medium.
I feel like anime is a different beast because if many of those titles get localized, the DVDs would sell. The trouble is, the more popular franchises DO make it overseas, but they get watered down to be made "appropriate" for kids. Manga, on the other hand, would be less likely because the sets would come out months after I've read the issues it has. I mean, Naruto Shippuuden is being put up for free with subs on Hulu. The day that was announced a friend of mine *cough* stopped downloading them, and the better fansubs stoppped.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: KDR_11k on May 02, 2009, 02:44:01 PM
The developers of Crysis, I think, went on record a few years ago that they HAD to go multiplatform and support consoles because piracy killed their PC exclusive sales.
Meh, I wouldn't listen to CryTek, they're the biggest whiners in the industry. Rather fitting though.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Morari on May 02, 2009, 04:23:40 PM
I tend to think this is true. Piracy, I suspect, has been a major force in transforming PC gaming heavily towards subscription based online models. The developers of Crysis, I think, went on record a few years ago that they HAD to go multiplatform and support consoles because piracy killed their PC exclusive sales. Interestingly enough, the casual audience on the PC have become voracious consumers, as Big Fish Games proves.
That's just a scapegoat that lazy and greedy developers use. They can exercise more control over a console, while worrying about testing less configurations. Console piracy is just as common.
And really... A flash card in one's DS spurs this? Why would I want to carry cartridges around when I can have every game I won on one card, as well as any older system's titles as well? It's a very practical thing to do with a portable device. Besides, a pirated copy does not usually equate into a lost sale as analysts would like you to believe.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: KDR_11k on May 02, 2009, 05:01:59 PM
Besides, a pirated copy does not usually equate into a lost sale as analysts would like you to believe.
Not 1:1 but not 1:0 either.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Ymeegod on May 02, 2009, 06:25:02 PM
"Console piracy is just as common. "
Not really, you have to mod consoles though or buy something special which isn't sold in stores so the casual gamers really don't have access to them. It's not like I can simply hand them a copied disc or send the files to their harddrives.
And privacy does kill, look at what happened to the poor Dreamcast.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Morari on May 02, 2009, 08:11:19 PM
Quote from: KDR_11k
Not 1:1 but not 1:0 either.
I'd be willing to bet that it's far closer to 1:0 than 1:1. Games are too expensive, period. Most people that have the time to play a lot of games do not have money, whether they are younger persons or simply bums. Furthermore, a great deal of such piracy actually leads to sales rather than away from it. This is quite simply akin to a demo. And what of those poor people with familes that like to play on the LAN? Does copying the game two or three times for home use, on your private network, really constitute anything outside of exercising what should be your right as a consumer?
Quote from: Ymeedog
Not really, you have to mod consoles though or buy something special which isn't sold in stores so the casual gamers really don't have access to them. It's not like I can simply hand them a copied disc or send the files to their harddrives.
And privacy does kill, look at what happened to the poor Dreamcast.
Yes, really. PC piracy isn't just copying a CD key nowadays. It is sometimes more difficult than on the console side even. With a current-gen console, all you have to do is buy a solder-less chip and literally pop it in. After that, everything is game.
The Dreamcast was killed by Sony's propaganda, coupled with grave mismanaged at Sega. Too bad too, as it's still my favorite console overall.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: KDR_11k on May 03, 2009, 04:28:11 AM
Quote
I'd be willing to bet that it's far closer to 1:0 than 1:1. Games are too expensive, period. Most people that have the time to play a lot of games do not have money, whether they are younger persons or simply bums.
Yeah and this way they can spend ALL their money on booze rather than having to allocate any of it to gaming while still playing a lot of games. Without the option they'd have probably 95% fewer games overall but they'd at least buy some. With free downloading, why would they ever buy one?
Quote
Furthermore, a great deal of such piracy actually leads to sales rather than away from it.
I think without actual data that point cannot be discussed accurately. I know plenty of people who download and never buy afterwards (unless it's mandatory for online play or something) but noone who actually uses downloads as demos (and even then there's the option of going into lazy justification mode with "eh, I finished it but I didn't like it enough to buy it").
Quote
And what of those poor people with familes that like to play on the LAN?
With a DS???
Quote
Yes, really. PC piracy isn't just copying a CD key nowadays. It is sometimes more difficult than on the console side even.
It's "click on torrent, wait a bit, have game". Soldering requires physically modifying the console, even the most complex warez installations only require software steps nicely spelled out in a text file (of course some people are too stupid to click on a button when it's spelled out for them but that's life). I'd argue it's often harder to get a legal copy to run.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Mikintosh on May 03, 2009, 06:26:04 PM
Just prefacing this by saying that I don't ever pirate games or use flash carts, as I think both hurt Nintendo in the way the article describes.
The DS depresses me. It has a huge amount of games out for it, but only a mere fraction of which I've ever been interested in (the only system with worse ratios for me is the PS2), and it's the system that I've returned the most games to Gamestop for store credit, by far. Nintendo hasn't been supporting it in the same way they aren't supporting the Wii sufficiently, the prices are too steep to experiment with obscure titles (it doesn't seem like anything gets marked down below $18), and the DSi was a huge miss in offering a valid reason for people to upgrade while at the same time promising that any new titles will only be made for the new system. I haven't bought a DS game other than Pokemon Platinum and Zelda: Phantom Hourglass (used) in a year, and that's a shame, since the system still holds such promise to me.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: rbtr on May 03, 2009, 11:58:27 PM
Your doing it wrong mikintosh. The Wii and the DS have taught me to branch out, and play stuff I wouldn't normally. And to find the games to play, because they aren't gonna find me. I own the most games for my DS than any other system ever.
Also, as far as the topic goes, I got maybe two pages into the farticle and couldn't stomach it. It was pretty bad
you see what i did there?
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: KDR_11k on May 04, 2009, 04:04:14 AM
I guess I'm the opposite of Mikintosh, I've got tons of DS games and can't find anything worth playing for the 360.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Mikintosh on May 04, 2009, 06:58:34 AM
Your doing it wrong mikintosh. The Wii and the DS have taught me to branch out, and play stuff I wouldn't normally. And to find the games to play, because they aren't gonna find me. I own the most games for my DS than any other system ever.
Also, as far as the topic goes, I got maybe two pages into the farticle and couldn't stomach it. It was pretty bad
you see what i did there?
Yes, I most certainly did! Well, it doesn't help for the Wii and the DS that they probably have the most disproportionate ratio of "real" games and licensed tie-ins which get horrible reviews (though they probably aren't all bad). I'm not going to plunk down $30 on a game that got 6/10s across the board; I have many higher quality games at home that I haven't even finished. As for the 360, I had a long string of purchases made for that system the first six months or so after I got it, but now I seem to have hit a brick wall; in their case bad licensed games are replaced with bad shooters and heaven knows what else. Hell, after enjoying Halo 3 immensely I barely got through Gears of War's first level before returning it, so maybe I'm just picky.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: KDR_11k on May 04, 2009, 07:51:20 AM
You enjoyed Halo 3?
There's TONS of games for the DS that aren't crappy. You don't have to go for 6/10 stuff, there's shitloads of 8-9s (10s are hard because it seems reviewers dock some points for not having current gen home console graphics).
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: raidfighter on May 04, 2009, 07:15:12 PM
I enjoyed Halo 3. It's quite awesome. Graphics are simple enough but it is not really based on the graphics, it is how action is present in the game.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Morari on May 04, 2009, 07:21:07 PM
Must... ignore... Halo... comments...
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 04, 2009, 07:40:51 PM
It's quite awesome.
What, you say?
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Mikintosh on May 04, 2009, 08:18:50 PM
I dunno; I judge these things by how fun they are, not their artistic value. Hence, I own all 3 Halo games and hated Bioshock. And I'll add that I also haven't been too keen on the DS' lineup since most of the "good" games are in genres that I'm not a big fan of (I'm unlikely to be first in line to buy the Dragon Quest remake or Contra 4, for instance), and I also don't have enough occasions to actually play the damn system in order to finish these games, which is why it takes me month to beat a Pokemon game that others get through in days. So I guess I can see the appeal of having an endless amount of ROMs at one's disposable in order to dabble in each game, but I can't condone it.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: KDR_11k on May 05, 2009, 06:48:13 AM
I found Halo 3 to be like every other plain FPS I've played except with crappy controls.
You can play the DS at home, nothing forces you to use it only outside. Well, unless you're playing Boktai...
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Morari on May 05, 2009, 06:06:25 PM
And I'll add that I also haven't been too keen on the DS' lineup since most of the "good" games are in genres that I'm not a big fan of (I'm unlikely to be first in line to buy the Dragon Quest remake or Contra 4, for instance)
This is what I was getting at. DS games tend to drop in price fairly quick (first party excluded), so it's pretty easy for me to spend $10 on Away shuffle dragon, even if it got bad reviews, because the concept sounded interesting. Or $20 on moon, because it had a lot of heart (I still need to beat that one). Or $15 on Bangai-o spirits, even if I suck at shooters, because that game is great. Or $20 on Little Red Riding Hood's Zombie bar-b-q, or $15 on Barnyard blast.
I just don't understand how anybody could say the DS doesn't have compelling software (not that you are) because there's an abundance of software. There's niche stuff like Super dodgeball, and there's mainstream stuff like Zelda or GTA. Nintendo doesn't need to produce "teh harcorez" because the third parties are FINALLY backing Nintendo up, and doing it themselves! Nintendo can make all these downstream games, and not worry about the upstream push, because the upstream is THERE on the DS. The Wii is a different story.
I say to this article: It is on the gamers to follow the rules (DON'T PIRATE JERKS) and they should because spending money in the industry is what keep the industry alive. And I think gamers should try games they wouldn't normally, because original ideas is what will sustain the industry.
What am I getting at? Gamers can kill the industry by being idiots.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: DAaaMan64 on May 06, 2009, 02:11:55 PM
LOL I like Halo 3 as well.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Ymeegod on May 06, 2009, 04:23:49 PM
Depends on what you're looking for. I like strategy, platformers, and RPGs and there's more than enough on the DS if you want to shop online. Finding some of these games is the real challenge since they have limited builds. Mario&Luigi Partners in Time for example is very hard to find new. But it sounds like you're looking for budget games and for some reason Nintendo hasn't released player choice titles. Mario Kart DS is still marked at $35 even after all these years.
What I loved about the DS was the non-games. Personal Training Cooking and Brain Age were great.
As for Halo 3, I enjoyed it but the story was down right dumb and loved the hell out of Bioshock. Doesn't sound like you gave BS enough time to enjoy--how long did you try it?
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Deguello on May 06, 2009, 08:10:35 PM
Quote
Mario Kart DS is still marked at $35 even after all these years.
Maybe if the sales would die down they would. Why would they want to reduce the price on a 4 year old game that still seems to top the charts?
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: ReverendNoahWhateley on May 07, 2009, 07:59:40 AM
The one factor that kept me from finishing the original Halo is how generic the enemies are. There are big lizardmen that walk sideways to avoid being shot, and there are cute little comedy relief lizardmen that pull a Shemp Howard and run away when you shoot at them. There might have been medium-sized lizardmen later in the game, but I didn't make it that far.
I suspect the later Halo games are more diverse.
About the DS: there are actually a lot of DS games I need to pick up. Fire Emblem, The Dark Spire, Civilization Revolution, Ninjatown...my selfish lust for DS games is pulling me in so many directions at once, I don't know where to start.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: oohhboy on May 07, 2009, 09:09:22 AM
They were Lizards? I thought the small ones were Ewoks. They sure die like them. The biggest thing for me was how unsatisfying the weapons were. No character, no bang, mostly a spamfess.
The article was pretty meh and took forever to get the point, a weak one at that. I know how to pirate, I could pirate, but a choose not to pirate the majority of the stuff I got. I haven't pirated anything Nintendo since the end of the SNES. I have had to pirate Mac games since, well you can't find them, besides I got plenty of open source games to mess with. I have a pretty decent anime collection which I started after watching a pirate version.
At the end it came down to economics. I felt that all that I have brought was worth was I paid for. I have plenty of games to play and feel no need to acquire everything. Entertainment wise, I am maxed out.
DRM and firmwares are not going to change any of the ongoing piracy. I am in the progress of constructing a Hackintosh. I am willing to go pretty far to continue using an Apple, however I can't afford to. The protection measures in place isn't going to change whether I buy a Mac or not since I can't buy one in the first place.
In a lot of ways, that is what piracy is about. Getting something you can't afford or unwilling to afford. Whether it hurts the company or it's legality isn't a factor, it never comes to mind. Sometimes it is a lost sale since the person could afford it and was too cheap to buy it. However a majority of the time I believe they wouldn't have brought it in the first place or couldn't afford to do so.
You could pirate 3000 games, but seriously, how much enjoyment could one possibly derive from that? Could you play each one to satisfaction let alone completion? How much of life are you willing to give up to play your collection? The resulting problems you would face playing such a collection would be punishment in itself.
While it's true pirates aren't customers, they aren't stealing from you either. They are more potential future customers. For some, they may start buying games if they play less since they will have time to find better jobs or do more hours. Others are lost causes and quite frankly, trying to turn them would be a waste of time.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Ymeegod on May 08, 2009, 02:07:46 PM
What are you talking about? Pirating hurts the industry because namely these guys are reselling games and taking all the profits for themselves. You don't have to download games yourself to get illegal versions--just look at lovable Ebay for example. Ebay really doesn't give two-sh!ts about the illegal actions of it's users and they sell 1000's of copies of games to users who are unaware of what they're buying. Hell I got stung three times myself (i used to buy alot of used games from them) and no I didn't deal with anyone with a China account) and Ebay didn't even ban the other user's account. I had to go to Local Police and that took months of my time (one idiot got fined 25K and other 75k--the last guy got away).
So you can't say they aren't hurting the industry.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: oohhboy on May 08, 2009, 02:22:15 PM
I am sorry. I was speaking as an individual. In no way would I condone selling of such "Product" and you clearly hate buying such "Product". No doubt such practice does directly hurt the industry, however such industrial piracy was outside of the scoop of the openning article and this thread.
Of course if you wish to extend this issue you might like to look into generic drug manufacturing. It's the same thing with a twist and on a whole different level of complexity.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Mikintosh on May 08, 2009, 03:00:58 PM
What are you talking about? Pirating hurts the industry because namely these guys are reselling games and taking all the profits for themselves. You don't have to download games yourself to get illegal versions--just look at lovable Ebay for example. Ebay really doesn't give two-sh!ts about the illegal actions of it's users and they sell 1000's of copies of games to users who are unaware of what they're buying. Hell I got stung three times myself (i used to buy alot of used games from them) and no I didn't deal with anyone with a China account) and Ebay didn't even ban the other user's account. I had to go to Local Police and that took months of my time (one idiot got fined 25K and other 75k--the last guy got away).
So you can't say they aren't hurting the industry.
I don't understand...what do you get from these eBay sellers? I don't know what you mean by "illegal versions" of games.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Mop it up on May 08, 2009, 03:13:09 PM
I don't understand...what do you get from these eBay sellers? I don't know what you mean by "illegal versions" of games.
Illegal copies. Bootlegs. Unauthorized production of the games. They are made from cheap material too and will often times freeze up or just plain not work.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: KDR_11k on May 09, 2009, 04:01:41 AM
"Nintondo" GBA carts, for example.
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 09, 2009, 04:25:46 AM
wtf ahahahahhahahaha
Title: Re: Well, here's another take on why hardcore games are bad business
Post by: Mikintosh on May 10, 2009, 12:49:49 AM
I don't understand...what do you get from these eBay sellers? I don't know what you mean by "illegal versions" of games.
Illegal copies. Bootlegs. Unauthorized production of the games. They are made from cheap material too and will often times freeze up or just plain not work.
That's why you never buy from someone with lower than a 98% rating unless you're willing to lose your shirt in a worst-case scenario.
