Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Mop it up on April 26, 2009, 01:40:35 AM
Title: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on April 26, 2009, 01:40:35 AM
I’m probably going to be ridiculed for this but oh well.
Games released on WiiWare should also at some point be released on disc and sold in retail stores. Yes, it’s true, the main reason I think this is because I don’t like to pay for digitally distributed media. Although I know I’m not the only one with that mindset, most people aren’t bothered by that. However, I remember hearing a statistic that only about half of all Wii owners have it connected to the Internet. I don’t know if that statistic was or still is true, but if it is, that’s 25 million Wii owners worldwide who don’t have access to WiiWare games.
They could work well if offered as compilations and sold at the same price as every game combined. If all of the Strong Bad game episodes were being sold on disc for $50, I might be interested in that. Hudson could also release all of their WiiWare titles onto a single disc. I know that many WiiWare games are by different developers, but does that mean they couldn’t be compiled onto one disc by a publisher? Since the games are being sold as a compilation, they aren’t really competing with one another.
There are certain games which could probably be released as stand-alone titles at budget prices, even if they cost a little more than the download. I would pay $15 for Dr. Mario Online if it were available on disc. If they released Mega Man 9 on disc (including all downloadable content) for $20, I’d be all over that.
This does cause some problems I’m sure, though I don’t know what those all might be. One would probably be shelf space, which is already kind of cluttered by all of the regular retail-only games. And so I ask the lot of you, what do you think? Would it be feasible to release certain WiiWare games on disc?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 26, 2009, 01:47:04 AM
This will never happen. Nintendo believes in WiiWare too much to release games on disc. They want people to get online, buy points and download games. They have spent a lot of money trying to bring the service of up snuff, and they would rather spend millions convincing people like you that downloading WiiWare is worth it than releasing games on disc.
Sorry for my blunt honesty, but I just don't see this happening, even if the stats are against Nintendo.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Mop it up on April 26, 2009, 01:52:40 AM
*sigh* You are probably right, though I can dream can't I? Even after WiiWare is fully established, you don't think they will ever at any point in the future offer games as both downloads and on disc?
If another company wanted to release their WiiWare games on disc, could Nintendo prevent them from doing so?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 26, 2009, 02:07:17 AM
*sigh* You are probably right, though I can dream can't I? Even after WiiWare is fully established, you don't think they will ever at any point in the future offer games as both downloads and on disc?
If another company wanted to release their WiiWare games on disc, could Nintendo prevent them from doing so?
I think Nintendo might release a compilation of their own games, but again they want the service to blossom so its likely that they will forever remain WiiWare games.
As for third parties that's not a problem. Simply because you are a WiiWare developer it doesn't mean you can't release your game elsewhere. Telltale Games has the Strong Bad games up for sale on the PC and you can buy all 5 episodes on disc and play it on your PC. World of Goo is also available on PC, and Eternity's Child is also a PC game that will come to WiiWare.
I think that while Nintendo wants all of their games to be WiiWare exclusive they can't force developers to release their games elsewhere.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: KDR_11k on April 26, 2009, 02:18:40 AM
Wait, there's a SBCG4AP disc? I thought that was only available through Steam and such on the PC?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 26, 2009, 02:22:32 AM
Wait, there's a SBCG4AP disc? I thought that was only available through Steam and such on the PC?
Well, if I am not mistaken when all of the episodes are available you can order them all and TellTale Games will send you the disc with the episodes. It comes at a discount price.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Mikintosh on April 26, 2009, 03:36:38 AM
Sad to say, but most of the people who can't afford Internet for their Wii console probably don't have enough money to buy many games, anyway. And since there hasn't been a breakout hit amongst the WiiWare games a la Geometry Wars (tho I guess World of Goo is doing very well), there's not much call for these publishers to put money into packaging for retail distribution when the whole point of digital downloads was so they didn't have to do that.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Mop it up on April 26, 2009, 04:22:00 AM
The only one of Nintendo's games which I am interested in is Dr. Mario Online, so I don't really care if they don't release their own games on disc. I'm still holding out hope that some other companies will give it a try sometime.
Sad to say, but most of the people who can't afford Internet for their Wii console probably don't have enough money to buy many games, anyway.
I doubt the only reason people haven't connected their system to the Internet is because they can't afford to. Not everyone has a wireless router, and those who don't probably don't have their system in a good position to connect it with an Ethernet cable. Some people are lazy and wouldn't want to bother with acquiring the necessary equipment just to buy a couple of download games.
Wii game discs are dirt cheap to manufacture, and if companies have already recouped their development costs through WiiWare sales then there's not much financial risk involved in releasing them on disc. It could potentially boost the sales of games which have slowed. We won't know for sure if it's worth it unless some company actually tries it.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: KDR_11k on April 26, 2009, 06:20:25 AM
Just for reference, Hudson's entire WiiWare catalog in a compilation would cost 79$ if you priced it at the combined cost of all 10 contained games.
Sad to say, but most of the people who can't afford Internet for their Wii console probably don't have enough money to buy many games, anyway. And since there hasn't been a breakout hit amongst the WiiWare games a la Geometry Wars (tho I guess World of Goo is doing very well), there's not much call for these publishers to put money into packaging for retail distribution when the whole point of digital downloads was so they didn't have to do that.
I don't think it's a pure cost thing, they just don't care enough.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Mikintosh on April 26, 2009, 08:31:10 AM
Sad to say, but most of the people who can't afford Internet for their Wii console probably don't have enough money to buy many games, anyway. And since there hasn't been a breakout hit amongst the WiiWare games a la Geometry Wars (tho I guess World of Goo is doing very well), there's not much call for these publishers to put money into packaging for retail distribution when the whole point of digital downloads was so they didn't have to do that.
I don't think it's a pure cost thing, they just don't care enough.
Well, I'd tend to think they'd base these things more on business decisions rather than emotional ones, since they are a business...
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: KDR_11k on April 26, 2009, 10:14:04 AM
Well, I'd tend to think they'd base these things more on business decisions rather than emotional ones, since they are a business...
I meant the people who own the Wiis.
Ah, sorry. Though I dunno, if they were only putting one game on a disc, would they be able to justify having "Dr. Mario" on the shelves next to all the other games? I mean, all the shovelware makes everything of quality look like a bargain, but it just doesn't seem like a market model that next-gen consumers would get behind. Man, I sound like a marketing exec...
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on April 26, 2009, 10:59:58 AM
Wait, there's a SBCG4AP disc? I thought that was only available through Steam and such on the PC?
Well, if I am not mistaken when all of the episodes are available you can order them all and TellTale Games will send you the disc with the episodes. It comes at a discount price.
For Wii no, for PC yes.
---------- Also Nintendo has always stated that they wanted their WiiWare products to be separate from retail. But it doesn't stop 3rd parties to put up a compilation or something. There is one retail game that exists on WiiWare, TV Show King Party the only difference is the retail version is 20 dollars more expensive (MSRP) and they added some minor features, so it was a quick and dirty WiiWare to retail that's more expensive. Another game from Gameloft, Brain Challenge for the DS was ported to XBLA..... then to WiiWare......and then finally to PSN.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Morari on April 26, 2009, 11:36:46 AM
The only one of Nintendo's games which I am interested in is Dr. Mario Online, so I don't really care if they don't release their own games on disc. I'm still holding out hope that some other companies will give it a try sometime.
Sad to say, but most of the people who can't afford Internet for their Wii console probably don't have enough money to buy many games, anyway.
I doubt the only reason people haven't connected their system to the Internet is because they can't afford to. Not everyone has a wireless router, and those who don't probably don't have their system in a good position to connect it with an Ethernet cable. Some people are lazy and wouldn't want to bother with acquiring the necessary equipment just to buy a couple of download games.
Some people are quite simply still out of range for any kind of broadband as well. Why should those telecom/cable monopolies want to do anything to expand what should be a public utility when they don't have to? Avarice is the root of all evil.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 26, 2009, 08:05:45 PM
"Best of WiiWare" compilation discs should be sold in retail stores.
"Like these games? Find more like them in the Wii Shop Channel right now!"
That'd be the best thing in the world for WiiWare.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Pale on April 27, 2009, 10:51:30 AM
They can release them on discs if they want, but I'll still be downloading them.
I want to make a thread in which I state that all retail games should also be released as digital downloads. =P
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 27, 2009, 01:17:07 PM
Wasn't there an Xbox Live Arcade "Best of" disc released at some point? Xbox Live Arcade Unplugged I think it was. I think it pretty much existed to provide the option to buy Geometry Wars in a disc format. I don't see why the same couldn't be done for WiiWare.
But the Xbox disc was published by Microsoft and featured games from multiple developers. Nintendo doesn't seem to, well, care enough to do the same thing. With Nintendo third party games are almost seen as competition. They don't seem to specifically interact with third parties like MS and Sony do. A true "Best of" WiiWare disc needs Nintendo involved and they have to bring multiple developers together on one disc. They won't so we'll never get this. It's too bad because I wouldn't mind that. I have an inherent distrust of download-only content. If I had a physical disc I could play the game hypothetically forever, even if Nintendo has disabled their online service.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Morari on April 27, 2009, 01:43:07 PM
I have an inherent distrust of download-only content. If I had a physical disc I could play the game hypothetically forever, even if Nintendo has disabled their online service.
Bingo! This is exactly why digital distribution will never replace physical mediums entirely. Of course, there are a lot of stupid people out there...
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: KDR_11k on April 27, 2009, 02:06:39 PM
I think Nintendo is just opposed to compilations since they learned you make more money by selling games individually.
As for Nintendo disabling their online service, as long as you've got the stuff downloaded that doesn't matter (WiiWare doesn't require any remote authentication)
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 27, 2009, 02:24:37 PM
As for Nintendo disabling their online service, as long as you've got the stuff downloaded that doesn't matter (WiiWare doesn't require any remote authentication)
Yeah, Wiiware /= Steam.
The game downloaded onto a Wii will be there forever.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Pale on April 27, 2009, 02:27:06 PM
I honestly feel sorry for people that are so genuinely paranoid about their possessions that they refuse to buy digital things because of their extremely flimsy concept of owning something "forever."
As I said in my blog post from some time ago, the benefits of digital distribution FAR outweigh this vague thought of possibly losing your content. To reiterate the biggest benefit in my mind, you don't have to collect ANYTHING! Digital distribution completely removes the concept of rarity which lowers the stress for all parties involved.
On top of that, it's also cost effective for everyone and its much more convenient. As I said in the blog post... In my head I have every game on Virtual Console, WiiWare, Live Arcade, and PSN in my collection right now. I just haven't given everyone my money quite yet. That's an incredibly powerful position for the player to be in.
And, short of all of that, if you are concerned about the environment at all, how much benefit do you think it would have if we got to a future where there was no such thing as physical games at all? If you think about the waste of the packaging, the fuel of the shipping, and the consumption of the factories... it's astronomical.
So honestly... am I the stupid one now? Or is it the people that are totally paranoid that they aren't going to be able to play their games 70 years from now on their death bed?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 27, 2009, 02:33:30 PM
Wasn't there an Xbox Live Arcade "Best of" disc released at some point? Xbox Live Arcade Unplugged I think it was. I think it pretty much existed to provide the option to buy Geometry Wars in a disc format. I don't see why the same couldn't be done for WiiWare.
Yep, "Xbox Live Arcade Uplugged, Vol. 1". Guess it must have bombed because no Vol. 2 has been released. They did make another compilation of Xbox Live Arcade games that is bundled with the Xbox 360 Arcade. This is a much better compilation and includes Pac-Man Championship Edition, Feeding Frenzy, Luxor 2, Boom Boom Rocket, and Uno.
Pale, I don't think downloads offer many benefits. It's more cost effective to the publisher, but so far that costs have NOT been passed on to us consumers. I refuse to pay the same amount to download a game that it would cost to get the physical game. With the physical game I get an instruction booklet, a real sense of ownership, a quick and easy way to let a friend play the game by borrowing it. Maybe if the digital version is like $10 cheaper, then I would agree with you (since $10 is about what retailers take from the game anyways).
As for environmental, the only think I throw out is the plastic wrapper. I keep everything else and don't trade in games anymore.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 27, 2009, 02:34:15 PM
Quote
As for Nintendo disabling their online service, as long as you've got the stuff downloaded that doesn't matter (WiiWare doesn't require any remote authentication)
True but what if my Wii breaks years from now? I could save my downloaded games to SD Card but even then what if I lose that? The thing that's so great about physical media is that I can replace everything. If my Gamecube breaks I can find a used one. If my copy of Metroid Prime breaks I can find a used one. I lose everything in a fire? I might not be able to replace Mega Man 9 because Capcom may not have it available in any format and since no physical copy exists in the wild my only option for replacing it is piracy.
Quote
Bingo! This is exactly why digital distribution will never replace physical mediums entirely. Of course, there are a lot of stupid people out there..
I used to think this but I think it really only applies to our lifetime. There are people less than ten years younger than me don't own any music albums. Everything is downloaded. They have no connection to the physical media. While I don't think it's going to happen for sure I think there is a possibility that digital distribution will completely replace physical mediums as we see generations completely raised in a digital age. My co-worker's daughter and her friends never even talk on a phone. They exclusively text. Everyone has their million friends on Facebook they've never met. People are becoming more and more attached to an artificial digital world. I don't relate because I'm old enough to remember no internet, no cellphones and PCs being a huge luxury item.
People still ride horses but no one does it for anything but recreation. Everyone on Earth has been raised in the automobile age and, aside from enthusiasts, has no connection to horses. While in a different time EVERYONE had that connection because that was all there was for transportation. I could see physical media becoming like that where it's for enthusiasts only and the rest of the world just uses digital distribution because it's all they've ever known.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Pale on April 27, 2009, 02:42:06 PM
TJ, how can you say their are no benefits when I just outlined some? Are you disagreeing? As for price, WiiWare, VC, Live Arcade, and PSN games all definitely pass some savings on to the customer. Full retail games haven't had enough examples to make any statement about them.
I'm not kidding myself though, games will always be priced at what the parties involve think they can get for them. But it is a fact that they require less money to be profitable when they are digitally distributed only.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the possibility of losing your data isn't a problem. I just think its much less of a problem than you all make it out to be.
Firstly, I'm buying these games with a trust that these services will be continued on to future consoles. Also, I expect Nintendo to solve the tying them to a console thing next gen as well, so that problem would go away as well.
Obviously I could be wrong about these assumptions and I could get burned... but because of the no need to collect thing I mentioned before, I can also assume that even if I am burned I will have played most of the games a significant amount anyway. I wouldn't be THAT upset.
And just one last random thing, if you don't throw your games out they can still be considered waste, because they will get thrown out eventually AND they took energy to create. But keeping them is definitely a great step towards minimizing the effect.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 27, 2009, 03:35:20 PM
Quote
And just one last random thing, if you don't throw your games out they can still be considered waste, because they will get thrown out eventually AND they took energy to create. But keeping them is definitely a great step towards minimizing the effect.
If you're going to take to that level then why make anything that doesn't break down in a few days? What do environmentalists think of archaelogical finds? Are the ancient Egyptians bad because their stuff has last for so long? I only consider something wasteful if it is specifically meant to be disposable but isn't biodegradable or recyclable. So yeah the packaging my chocolate bar comes in isn't so great but with a videogame I want that case I store my game in to not rot away on me in my lifetime. If it's not designed to be garbage then I think it should be made to last.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 27, 2009, 03:45:02 PM
TJ, how can you say their are no benefits when I just outlined some? Are you disagreeing? As for price, WiiWare, VC, Live Arcade, and PSN games all definitely pass some savings on to the customer. Full retail games haven't had enough examples to make any statement about them.
I'm not kidding myself though, games will always be priced at what the parties involve think they can get for them. But it is a fact that they require less money to be profitable when they are digitally distributed only.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the possibility of losing your data isn't a problem. I just think its much less of a problem than you all make it out to be.
Firstly, I'm buying these games with a trust that these services will be continued on to future consoles. Also, I expect Nintendo to solve the tying them to a console thing next gen as well, so that problem would go away as well.
Obviously I could be wrong about these assumptions and I could get burned... but because of the no need to collect thing I mentioned before, I can also assume that even if I am burned I will have played most of the games a significant amount anyway. I wouldn't be THAT upset.
And just one last random thing, if you don't throw your games out they can still be considered waste, because they will get thrown out eventually AND they took energy to create. But keeping them is definitely a great step towards minimizing the effect.
I said it doesn't offer many benefits, I didn't say it offered no benefits. As for prices, I was referring to full length games like Warhawk and anything on Steam. Why should I pay $50 to download a game on Steam when I can get a physical copy of the game for the same price and get more out of it? Warhawk was the same price in stores as it was in the PlayStation Store. Sony saved a ton of money (not having to give retailers any money, not having to pay for distribution, not having to print or manufacture anything, etc.) but they still charged the same price and did not pass any of the savings to consumers.
I am not totally against digital downloads, I love the Virtual Console and WiiWare. I just don't see digital downloads ever replacing physical copies (at least for movies and video games, music is different). At most I see something like Disney is doing. Disney has started releasing all of their titles in a package that included a Blu-ray Disc copy, a DVD copy, and a digital copy.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Pale on April 27, 2009, 03:54:27 PM
Ok, "Not many" benefits may be true depending on what you think constitutes "many", but the fact remains that I only see one benefit to buying a physical copy.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Morari on April 27, 2009, 04:13:42 PM
Ok, "Not many" benefits may be true depending on what you think constitutes "many", but the fact remains that I only see one benefit to buying a physical copy.
And boy, what a huge benefit it is! ;)
Companies can't be trusted, period. Digital distribution is only used by companies because it gives them control... it's a form of DRM. I know that there are a ton of games that I still play on a fairly regular basis that are all over a decade old. That probably wouldn't be the case if they had been purchased digitally, as the companies have gone out of business, been bought out, the servers shut down, etc. Digital distribution is only good for the current generation that demands instant gratification to quench their two-day attention span beofre moving on to something else. Great games are timeless, and that should be taken into account.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Pale on April 27, 2009, 04:27:58 PM
I think your causality is a bit screwed up....
Digital distribution isn't here because of DRM. Digital distribution is here because the majority of people enjoy the convenience and it makes good economic sense for the distributors.
DRM is here because a digital copy is much harder to protect than a physical copy so they had to come up with a scheme of taking care of it.
I appreciate your righteous "timeless" comment, but I definitely think it's a bit of an overstatement. I mean, let's look at the past. How many games from your childhood do you have no way of playing in a way other than the original cart? I mean, we all know there are a few, because we have complaints about the Virtual Console. But, it's painfully obvious that companies are going to do everything in their power to keep these games coming out in some form so they can keep making money on them.
I know for a fact that I can already play the majority of my childhood favorites on Virtual Console, and I hope that more and more of them will continue to come out.
This really just comes down to paranoia and I guess the moral of this story is I'm a heck of a lot less paranoid than you guys are.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 27, 2009, 04:37:22 PM
And downloadable games are easier to pirate and backup to a [lol] physical media to play on a later date. The End.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 27, 2009, 05:21:47 PM
Right now digital delivery does seem more convenient. But remember that it's not the ONLY method of buying something. Now imagine a world there that is the ONLY option. How do you think the big corporations will act when they have that much control over distribution? We already are in an era where these companies act like we don't buy their stuff but rather just buy a licence to use it. They love the idea of the remote off switch. They love the idea of only allowing you so many uses before you have to buy it again or a limited time or only allowing use in certain situations and charging extra for others. This is what they want.
Now you may think "well there's nothing to stop someone who isn't part of the big corporate machine from releasing their own stuff." Right NOW there isn't anything stopping them because I can just record some tunes, burn them on a CD and *boom* indepedent music album. But if digital is it then there is no CD player or DVD player or game console to play this stuff on. Mr. DIY can't just burn his own physical media when no one has anything to play the physical media with. So he'll just distribute digitally as well then, right? Well how does it do that when he has no control over the delivery channel? With television it's not very feasible to just whip up your own TV station and get your own show on the air. In the future who's to say that it wlll be easy to make something available for purchase and download? If they control the network and the device that receives the content and plays the content where do you go? The internet is anarchy right now but do you think it will stay that way forever? They're trying to control it and decades from now they might accomplish it.
Physical copies relinquish control from the companies. They HATE used sales. They try to block that sort of thing and make it illegal. Because once something is out there they can never take it away. Provided it stays in working condition it can legally pass from owner to owner without a dime going to the creator. With digital we don't have that freedom. Sure we can make copies but we legally aren't allowed to do that. If we go all digital we'll be giving up some consumer freedom.
I know it sounds kind of paranoid but it seems that when big corporations are given the opportunity to **** everyone over they most often go for it. It's not as much paranoia but a lack of faith in ethics when it involves that kind of money and power.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on April 27, 2009, 05:24:18 PM
As for Nintendo disabling their online service, as long as you've got the stuff downloaded that doesn't matter (WiiWare doesn't require any remote authentication)
True but what if my Wii breaks years from now? I could save my downloaded games to SD Card but even then what if I lose that? The thing that's so great about physical media is that I can replace everything. If my Gamecube breaks I can find a used one. If my copy of Metroid Prime breaks I can find a used one. I lose everything in a fire? I might not be able to replace Mega Man 9 because Capcom may not have it available in any format and since no physical copy exists in the wild my only option for replacing it is piracy.
If your Gamecube breaks, you can find a used one. If that one breaks, you can find another used one. If that one breaks, and everyone else is going through the same thing? Sure, it'd take a while to run out, but definitely less than forever. The same thing will happen to your games. Rarity has already driven up the price for some used games to ridiculous degrees. Only software can really last forever. I'm sure Nintendo will be happily profiting from that fact for generations to come, too.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: vudu on April 27, 2009, 05:49:50 PM
They love the idea of the remote off switch. They love the idea of only allowing you so many uses before you have to buy it again or a limited time or only allowing use in certain situations and charging extra for others. This is what they want.
Source? Hell, I'd settle for an example. Name one instance of a company "turning off" your license. You can't just go sprouting nonsense and expect us to take it as gospel.
Sure, there are many instances of a limited number of installs, but that's not the same thing as a company deciding it wants to just turn off something you already bought. Even if it was, that's not a problem limited only to digital distribution. A coworker of mine recently complained to me about an online PS2 game her boyfriend recently bought. It was an online-centric multiplayer FPS (sorry, can't remember which one) that was several years old. The servers have since been shut down so the game is over 50% "worthless" now.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Mop it up on April 27, 2009, 06:10:33 PM
The biggest reason that a physical copy beats all? You can't sell a download. If you buy a game you don't like or just want to beat it and sell it, you're stuck with it if it's a download. Without being able to buy used games, there will never be price drops because there's no need for them. Games will never go on sale either because there won't be retailer specials.
How many games from your childhood do you have no way of playing in a way other than the original cart?
I still have the original carts and therefore don't need to pay for them again to play them. How many people growing up on WiiWare will be able to play those games again without having to buy them again?
Honestly though, I don't see why both forms can't be offered. Each form has its benefits and seem popular without cannibalizing sales of the other, so why not offer both?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 27, 2009, 06:11:36 PM
They love the idea of the remote off switch. They love the idea of only allowing you so many uses before you have to buy it again or a limited time or only allowing use in certain situations and charging extra for others. This is what they want.
Source? Hell, I'd settle for an example. Name one instance of a company "turning off" your license. You can't just go sprouting nonsense and expect us to take it as gospel.
Sure, there are many instances of a limited number of installs, but that's not the same thing as a company deciding it wants to just turn off something you already bought. Even if it was, that's not a problem limited only to digital distribution. A coworker of mine recently complained to me about an online PS2 game her boyfriend recently bought. It was an online-centric multiplayer FPS (sorry, can't remember which one) that was several years old. The servers have since been shut down so the game is over 50% "worthless" now.
He was saying about the ability to download it. It Nintendo were to remove a game from the Virtual Console, you'd never be able to download it. With a physical game you can just buy another copy. If Microsoft were to shut down Xbox Live Arcade, you'd have no way of ever getting those games again on your Xbox 360. This is the problem with digital only methods, you lose all control over the ability to acquire the game when you want.
Also, your online argument seems worthless to me. People who buy MMO's know that once the publisher pulls the plug on the game they are stuck with little more than a coaster. That is one of the reason I won't play MMOs (the other is that I refuse to pay a monthly fee just for the right to play a game I already purchased).
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: vudu on April 27, 2009, 06:20:57 PM
It Nintendo were to remove a game from the Virtual Console, you'd never be able to download it. With a physical game you can just buy another copy. If Microsoft were to shut down Xbox Live Arcade, you'd have no way of ever getting those games again on your Xbox 360. This is the problem with digital only methods, you lose all control over the ability to acquire the game when you want.
If Nintendo were to train an elite group of ninjas to sneak into everyone's home and steal their Super Mario Bros 3 cartridges you'd lose the ability to play that, too.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 27, 2009, 06:37:14 PM
I guess you don't have a counter so you had to resort to nonsense. One is a valid thing that they have actually done before (Nintendo did remove a couple of VC games in Europe for like a year, and in that period the only way to download it was if you had already downloaded it before) while the other is pure-nonsense.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 27, 2009, 06:41:53 PM
Machines break.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: vudu on April 27, 2009, 06:54:03 PM
You're pure nonsense.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Stratos on April 27, 2009, 07:03:50 PM
The thought of the internet one day being tamed, controlled and domesticated frightens me. Someone with that much power would be dangerous.
@Ian
Some things that are digital and DIY friendly are podcasts. Plus DIY musicians and game devs can still distribute their stuff online through their personal websites, iTunes or Amazon. Heck, Steam has a whole section dedicated to indie games and WiiWare was made to support the little guys.
I agree with a lot of the reservations against digital distribution being a consumers only option, but there are still workarounds available for people.
I only buy physical albums for artists I really like, my favorites. But others I am trying for the first time or where I'm not as big on them I'll grab off of Amazon MP3 since they are relatively cheaper.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Mop it up on April 27, 2009, 07:16:32 PM
You know, I did not intend for this topic to become a discussion of digital distribution vs. physical distribution, though I suppose it was inevitable as the two aren't exactly unrelated. I just wanted some opinions on whether people believe any WiiWare games will be released on disc and/or if that's a financially feasible option. It isn't like I'm suggesting that WiiWare shouldn't exist.
I find it funny and possibly ironic that the first person to ridicule me in this topic was Pale, even although it was in a more passive way.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 27, 2009, 07:22:24 PM
Whether it's feasible or not I guess depends on how well Xbox Live Arcade Unplugged, Vol. 1. If it bombed then that might mean people are interested in collections of these downloaded games.
I am hoping for a collection though.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Stratos on April 27, 2009, 07:25:48 PM
Pale wants to save the world through pushing digital distribution; "Gamers Honored For Immense Sacrifice To Stave Off Global Warming! Gamer Environmental Revolution Spurred By Mysterious Man In Bucket Hat!""
Of all of them I would be willing to bet the Strong Bad games would because Telltale likes to do that with their other games like Sam & Max. Sadly S&M didn't do well in sales. I liked it.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on April 27, 2009, 07:43:59 PM
I had misgivings about digital distribution before I got this job, but after a few years here, my attitude softened. I write software. The product I make isn't an optical disc. It's bits arranged to do something useful. I get paid to arrange bits. I went to school to learn how to arrange bits.
The same is true of video game developers. When I buy a game, the physical trappings are incidental to what I want, which is artfully arranged bits. The disc is only of any value to me because it contains a copy of those bits. I gave up some of the money I earned arranging bits to pay someone else for arranging bits in a way that pleases me. I didn't pay them for stamping a disc. I paid some other joker who doesn't even know what a bit is to do that. That joker's work is entirely parenthetical to the transaction I actually care about. It didn't improve the bits in any way to put them on a disc. All it did was facilitate the trade of my money for the bits.
And that is of some use! Putting the bits on a disc lets us pretend that they're more similar to traditional products like shoes and cars. It lets us buy, sell, and trade them like physical commodities. However, realistically, underneath it all, there are two things that matter to me. First, I want to be able to enjoy those bits. Second, I want to compensate their arrangers. And if I don't mind giving up some of the pretense a disc creates, such as being able to sell it (I never sell my games) or having an extra copy (which I know isn't permanent), why bother with the disc in the first place?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Stratos on April 27, 2009, 07:50:09 PM
I bother with the bits holder because I like to have them lined up on my shelf like movies and CDs in alphabetical order. I like to go over to my shelf and look at them and decide which I feel like enjoying that day. I also like having the manuals to read on a carbon based material because I sometimes get tired of reading digitally arranged bits on a screen. It's why I also don't like e-books.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 27, 2009, 07:51:52 PM
So that Nintendo can sell boxart slapped onto plastic.
Which in turn is sold by, returned to, and again sold by GameStop.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on April 27, 2009, 07:54:49 PM
I bother with the bits holder because I like to have them lined up on my shelf like movies and CDs in alphabetical order. I like to go over to my shelf and look at them and decide which I feel like enjoying that day.
Strictly speaking, you only need boxes and artwork to do that, not bits holders. ;)
Edit: There's a possibility that's what Pro just said.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: vudu on April 27, 2009, 08:09:24 PM
So that Nintendo can sell boxart slapped onto plastic.
Which in turn is sold by, returned to, and again sold by GameStop.
Technically, GameStop is already doing this (http://kotaku.com/5217271/heres-what-comes-in-your-patapon-2-box). :)
Remarkable timing. It's as if my thoughts become reality.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Mop it up on April 27, 2009, 09:45:11 PM
Should I change the topic title or should I report you all for going off-topic? :P
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Stratos on April 27, 2009, 10:18:58 PM
Hey, I tried to move it back with my Strong Bad comment. That still has the best chance I believe.
You know, Space Invaders Get Even could as well considering how large it is. I still want to try it soon.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Pale on April 27, 2009, 11:00:21 PM
I didn't ridicule anyone really. I just initially stated that I have the exact opposite opinion and thought it was funny.
The closest I came to ridiculing someone was when I fired back at Morari's "stupid" comment.
I'm not attacking anyone here, I just personally think digital distribution can save a lot of people some stress if they learn to stop worrying so much. Wow, that sentence is like an infinite loop or something. =P You get my drift.
And I was very close to not bringing up the environment thing because I knew it would elicit it's own kind of backlash. You'll notice it was the last reason I mentioned... I think the others are much more important.
I also don't buy the excuse that we'd be giving distributors too much power. It's not like enabling the reselling of used games didn't create another monopoly that totally takes advantage of people or anything...
Publishers have controlled the price of games for years and they still do. Digital distribution would change nothing... well maybe it would keep the huge, mall based pawn shop owners from lining their pockets.
We aren't going to solve this debate, but I still say the benefits far outweigh the one risk.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Morari on April 27, 2009, 11:22:08 PM
The closest I came to ridiculing someone was when I fired back at Morari's "stupid" comment.
I don't know that you had to "fire back", per say. The comment wasn't directed at you. It was merely an extension of the prior sentence, going on to state that people who want digital distribution over physical media exclusively are stupid. Now though it wasn't mentioned, I don't think this purely because I like how discs are shiny or something. I merely believe that relinquishing control for the sake of "convenience" is stupid no matter what the form.
I won't go on however, as you've clearly made up your mind and I have nothing to gain by (attempting to) change it. While some of your points are definitely great pros, they in no way make up for the inevitability that all digitally acquired games will be worthless and unplayable. It's not an if, it's a when. This isn't paranoia, this is foresight. Besides, in a world like todays', people could definitely stand to be a little more paranoid.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Mop it up on April 27, 2009, 11:37:31 PM
I didn't ridicule anyone really. I just initially stated that I have the exact opposite opinion and thought it was funny.
You're implying that I'm paranoid and stupid because my opinion differs from yours, you think my very opinion is laughable, and you don't even understand my reasoning for preferring physical games over downloads. That hardly seems like respectable behavior to me. I'm not even going to try to explain my thoughts in more detail because it seems highly unlikely you'd comprehend it, and I'm not trying to say that digital distribution is evil like you seem to think.
I'm not attacking anyone here, I just personally think digital distribution can save a lot of people some stress if they learn to stop worrying so much.
It would save people some stress if they stopped worrying about global warming too, but I guess it is best to ignore potential problems and hope they go away rather than study them closely and find ways to prevent them should they arise.
None of this matters for the topic at hand. You gave your opinion that you don't think WiiWare games should be released on disc, and that's the end of that.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Pale on April 27, 2009, 11:54:12 PM
Everyone always ends up angry... meh... can't please them all anyone I guess.
I am curious about one thing... what part of why you prefer them aren't I understanding?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Pale on April 28, 2009, 12:00:37 AM
Also, to Morari:
I'm not arguing that they wouldn't become worthless at some point... I'm arguing that, for me anyway, fixed media games become worthless too. My NES died. I tried to keep buying a new one, but they kept dying. Then half my games wouldn't play anymore.
The disc drive in both my Cube and Q died. I could keep rebuying that system too if I wanted but that's a pain in the rear. Thankfully the Wii plays Cube games, and I'm hoping that I will be saying the same thing about VC and WiiWare games for Nintendo's systems to come.
As a funny aside, it's kind of humorless to think that the thing that died on both of my Cube systems wouldn't have mattered in a digital distribution world. ;)
Also, I have somewhat of a vested interest in promoting the glory of downloadable games too... =P As if it actually becomes popular then all the companies will keep their services up, thus mitigating the "they could go away" fear.
And I'm not gonna keep railing on this I swear but I thought I should link my original blog post in case someone missed it.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 28, 2009, 12:25:32 AM
My main issue with downloadable content is the price. Make them cheaper than retail games (i.e. $50 retail, $40 to download instead) and I will be more willing to embrace them.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
Post by: Mop it up on April 28, 2009, 01:29:15 AM
I am curious about one thing... what part of why you prefer them aren't I understanding?
Everything you say about digital distribution seems to be in response to what problems might occur if it became the only form of distribution. While the potential problems are a concern of mine, they are all "what if" situations so they aren't really that big of a factor.
The main reason, it is one which is difficult for me to explain, and therefore one which I believe isn't easy to understand. It is about ownership, and even if that's the only reason (which it isn't), for me it is big enough to outweigh any benefit of digital distribution. Being able to sell a game, that is very important to me. If I couldn't have sold off Boom Blox, I would have been very distraught, but instead I rid myself of it and moved on. Yes, it creates a chance for people to capitalize on used games, but so what? Isn't that better than getting stuck with a bad game? If Nintendo's games are any indication, it hasn't hurt their business. You know what people do with the money they get from selling their games? They buy more games. Capitalism works.
Ownership, taken a step further, is collectorism. This is what I “suffer” from, you might say. Collecting things probably stems from the primitive man, where people collected food and other necessities for survival. When I buy something, I want to fully enjoy it. Having it as a physical object means I know it’s mine to do whatever I want with. I like to display my games, they are a part of the atmosphere of my gaming room. I want to see them all lined up in all of their glory, it helps my gaming mood. I like to browse my shelves when I’m picking out what I want to play. Sometimes seeing the cover art can remind me of what I like about a particular game and make me decide to play it. I want to hold it in my hands, I want to insert it into the system. Maybe I'll put the game in backwards or upside-down because I'm not paying attention, but that just adds some lawls. This is all part of my gaming experience, it goes beyond the simple act of playing.
You say looking for rare games causes stress, but I believe you’re looking at it in a cynical way. Is it stressful to hunt down old games? Sure, it can be. But the thrill of the hunt is a part of the excitement and accomplishment of owning games. There is no greater feeling than rummaging through a bin of worthless N64 sports games and coming across a game I’ve been going after for months. My eyes swell. My arms are trembling with anticipation as I bring it to the counter to pay for it. My stomach churns with excitement as I pop it into my system when I get home. Digital distribution has none of that thrill. It’s similar to shopping on eBay where everything is instantly accessible, which I used to avoid like the plague but these days I have pretty much no other choice. In all honestly, I am kind of looking forward to searching for all of the Wii games I missed once the next Nintendo system is released (or sooner, depending on when that is). It’ll be a shame if I can’t add WiiWare games to the list.
As for Virtual Console: This may sound weird, but… One part of playing older games is nostalgia. Whenever I pop in something like Perfect Dark, I am flooded with many fond memories of playing it with my friends. Whenever I slide in Mega Man II, I recall challenging my brother to see who could beat each stage the fastest. I recently acquired Sonic Mega Collection for GameCube, the Sonic games being some I enjoyed as a child. As I play them, the memories aren’t really coming back to me. I know they are there, but they just aren’t being triggered.
Now I know Sonic is a compilation, but it has the same principle as downloads: it isn’t the original. Why does this matter? Because it does not have the same scent. Cartridge games, they have a unique scent of plastic and silicon, and scent is the strongest sense tied to memory. As strange as it seems, taking a whiff of a game before I begin to play it helps those memories come back to me. Each system’s cartridges and discs have their own unique aroma as well, and I could identify them blindfolded without handling them. It would be more difficult to make memories with a digital copy of a new game; their most distinguishing characteristic has been removed.
That’s why I’ll always prefer physical games. I know I drifted off into collectorism there, but that’s not really unrelated. Because you are in favour of digital downloads then I don't think ownership is something that is very important to you. And that's fine, people are different. But why must there be only one solution? Does it really matter why someone prefers one form of media over the other? Why can't the two co-exist?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: KDR_11k on April 28, 2009, 03:53:11 AM
Without being able to buy used games, there will never be price drops because there's no need for them. Games will never go on sale either because there won't be retailer specials.
Lolwut? Last I checked PC games don't get sold used either yet they drop in price the fastest of all gaming systems (prices adjust to demand, without used sales the demand still drops off as the game ages). As for specials, Orange Box, 20€ off.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Ian Sane on April 28, 2009, 02:48:06 PM
Quote
It's not like enabling the reselling of used games didn't create another monopoly that totally takes advantage of people or anything...
You mean Gamestop? There is no such monopoly. Now in some areas that may be the only physical store that sells used games (I fortunately do not live in such an area; and doesn't EVERY town have a Blockbuster?). But in the internet age there are no regional monopolies. There's always eBay. In that case you don't have to even support a big chain store. It's just some guy selling this game that he's no longer interested in. In a digital only model that option no longer exists.
Physical copies ensure that it always exists and, though it can sometimes be costly or difficult, you can always replace your game. You're not at the mercy of a company that decides whether or not the game is available for sale or whether or not they will actually provide the accurate experience and not change something or do a lousy emulation job. And let's not forget legal complications. I can't go buy Goldeneye on the VC. Know why? Because the rights to that game are in limbo due to the publisher and developer splitting up and the rights to the IP being owned by a third company. This sort of thing happens in a digital only environment and you're **** out of luck. The game gets deleted from your hard drive and there is no copy of the game to seek out at the flea market. That game is GONE.
In the grand scheme of things it's not a huge deal but I find that a bit worrying. There are old TV shows and films that no longer exist because the parent company neglected them (or often intentional destroyed them) and since they come from a time period where no commercially available physical copy existed, they're gone. With physical copies you don't have to trust anyone. The probability is such that working copies will remain, just because they were released to the public in such a large quantity.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 28, 2009, 03:50:40 PM
I don't see why this needs to be a fight. There are huge technical hurdles in place (even on the "hardcore" 360 there are 10 million consoles that aren't even connected to the internet, let alone having the means to download full retail games) that mean we're a long way off from a point at which it's feasible for content providers to go to a digital-only model in anything except music, and in the meantime we can have both digital and physical options and you can go with whichever you prefer.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Ian Sane on April 28, 2009, 04:31:46 PM
Quote
I don't see why this needs to be a fight. There are huge technical hurdles in place (even on the "hardcore" 360 there are 10 million consoles that aren't even connected to the internet, let alone having the means to download full retail games) that mean we're a long way off from a point at which it's feasible for content providers to go to a digital-only model in anything except music, and in the meantime we can have both digital and physical options and you can go with whichever you prefer.
You're right. Realistically this isn't going to happen in my life time so I don't really have to worry about it. And if it does I'll probably be a geezer and not really have the same interests and priorities I have now. I do find though that I feel very detached from the world, like I'm the last of one generation and those only a few years younger than me are the first of another. Is it a cause of technology changing so quickly? Does the world change so fast now that we can have generation gaps that are only like five years apart?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Dirk Temporo on April 28, 2009, 04:37:04 PM
It's like you go out of your way to post the most absurd, unlikely, and completely pointless ideas in the world. I swear, every single post I've seen you make in the last two months has been something ridiculous.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: KDR_11k on April 28, 2009, 04:56:30 PM
Ian is a demographic of one.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on April 28, 2009, 05:31:07 PM
Lolwut? Last I checked PC games don't get sold used either yet they drop in price the fastest of all gaming systems (prices adjust to demand, without used sales the demand still drops off as the game ages). As for specials, Orange Box, 20€ off.
PC games are a different market. There have been no price drops or special sales on WiiWare and Virtual Console games, and Nintendo have stated their position that they won't ever be offering price drops.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: EasyCure on April 28, 2009, 05:39:32 PM
Lolwut? Last I checked PC games don't get sold used either yet they drop in price the fastest of all gaming systems (prices adjust to demand, without used sales the demand still drops off as the game ages). As for specials, Orange Box, 20€ off.
PC games are a different market. There have been no price drops or special sales on WiiWare and Virtual Console games, and Nintendo have stated their position that they won't ever be offering price drops.
I still find Nintendo's insistence on revealing publicly that they have no plans for a price cut insulting and arrogant. Yeah Iwata says it much nicer than Kutaragi but the message is still largely the same. They don't have to slash prices but I'd prefer that their decision to do that remain private. I suspect every company is trying to bleed every last dime out of their customers but I'd rather just assume they're doing that behind closed doors and not have them tell it to me outright.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on April 28, 2009, 05:42:11 PM
Oh dirty floors, you're right! Forget I said anything, PC gaming is no different... except that it is different in that it's the best form of gaming. :)
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 28, 2009, 05:44:27 PM
Yeah, love piracy huh. Digital Distro Gaming at its finest.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 28, 2009, 06:44:44 PM
Oh dirty floors, you're right! Forget I said anything, PC gaming is no different... except that it is different in that it's the best form of gaming. :)
Uh-huh, and that is why almost all PC games belong to a small amount of genres and why almost all PC games are down in sales.
Anyways, I hope digital distribution never becomes the only method of selling games as that would basically be the death of the industry.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on April 28, 2009, 09:27:52 PM
You're right. Realistically this isn't going to happen in my life time so I don't really have to worry about it. And if it does I'll probably be a geezer and not really have the same interests and priorities I have now. I do find though that I feel very detached from the world, like I'm the last of one generation and those only a few years younger than me are the first of another. Is it a cause of technology changing so quickly? Does the world change so fast now that we can have generation gaps that are only like five years apart?
I know what you mean, Ian. I feel there are broader and broader gaps between me and people younger than me. Texting, Twitter, what next? I just want to talk to people face to face.
Is it bad that I tease high schoolers I know about the absurdity and needlessness of texting? I think it's funny when I basically show them that it's glorified emailing and the go "you still email? just message people in facebook/myspace".
@Mop it up If we were neighbors in real life then I think we would be having trips every weekend together to brows garage sales and second hand outlet stores for old games. I love doing that and wish I had someone who would enjoy coming with me in my area.
There is a joy in stumbling across an old working NES or Atari and a dozen games. I almost got an Atari and 30 games that way but I left to another part of the store and came back and it was already grabbed. Too slow, I learned my lesson.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: KDR_11k on April 29, 2009, 03:53:52 AM
Anyways, I hope digital distribution never becomes the only method of selling games as that would basically be the death of the industry.
I think that depends on when it's done. If we see more general use of digital distribution in other media as well (looks likely) it may end up being viable as the only method of distribution because people are already used to it from movies, music, etc.
BTW, the PC's genre limitation seems less severe than the HD consoles' since everything that comes out is cross platform anyway and the HD consoles aren't exactly genre rich either.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on April 29, 2009, 04:31:09 AM
I know what you mean, Ian. I feel there are broader and broader gaps between me and people younger than me.
I'm younger than both you and Ian and even I feel like I'm a decaying old corpse. I don't even own a cellular phone so I'm sure you can imagine the flak I receive because of that. It is kind of embarrassing whenever somebody hands me a cellular phone and I can't even figure out how to use it. I also have a pocket watch instead of a wristwatch, though I suppose people don't really carry watches anymore because of all of the doodads and thingamajigs out there which have a clock.
If we were neighbors in real life then I think we would be having trips every weekend together to browse garage sales and second hand outlet stores for old games. I love doing that and wish I had someone who would enjoy coming with me in my area.
I'm too lazy to get up off the couch to fetch the TV remote, don't count on me moving across the country anytime soon. :) There's only one independent game store around here and it is ridiculously overpriced, I don't know how they stay in business. I mean, we're talking $10 for Super Mario Brothers expensive, a game which EB Games sold for 29 cents. It's too bad EB was absorbed by GameStop, they were such a better store...
The thought of digital distribution taking over is quite a frightening one, to think I'd never again experience the joy of shopping is very scary indeed. I love to shop! Browsing a list of products on a website is in no way as exhilarating as browsing the aisles of a physical store. Though I suppose I wouldn't have to worry about getting any weird looks after spending an hour in a store and walking out with nothing.
I almost got an Atari and 30 games that way but I left to another part of the store and came back and it was already grabbed. Too slow, I learned my lesson.
It seems we all learn that lesson the hard way. If you find a deal like that, grab it immediately! Don't be afraid to slap away anyone else who reaches for it!
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 29, 2009, 04:31:01 PM
In the interest of rerailing this thread a bit:
1. Digital downloads are amazing because they remove the biggest barriers to entry when it comes to developing a product. There are game developers right now who would not be game developers at all if not for WiiWare.
2. A compilation disc of WiiWare's best games would be nothing shy of awesome. The amount of money the disc sells for could easily be the same price all of the games would sell for in stores.
3. Steam allows you to resell your copy of a game you purchased through their online store (to another Steam user).
4. Pale's point about games no longer being available on a console because the console itself is dead is a completely valid one. You may have paid $50 for SMB3 at one point (or your parents did) but you now have the option to pay $5 for it on a completely new piece of hardware without the hassle of finding a working NES or hooking a NES up to your TV to play it. Really, it's $5. Get over it.
5. Digital distribution will not be the death of the industry. Steam is basically keeping PC gaming alive right now and it's entirely through digital downloads. Remove Steam from the picture and all you're left with is WoW.
If you're frightened that your games may one day "go away", I think you need to seriously look at how many games have disappeared from your list of "playable" because the consoles got old and died. Would I have ever played Sonic Spinball with a controller ever again if not for the VC? Not likely.
If anything, DD has managed to save a lot of old games from perdition by bringing them back to us in a format that is both convenient and inexpensive.
Again, I think WW games should be released on compilation discs because it'll give more exposure to the format, but DD shouldn't be demonized like this when it's bringing so many new possibilities to the table.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on April 29, 2009, 07:17:27 PM
I'm not sure how much of that was directed at me (if any), but I don't think digital distribution is evil. I just don't want it to become the only form of distribution, though I don't see that happening at least for a while. It worked on PC because the PC gaming market was dead, but consoles are still thriving and don't need to switch to digital-only. Offering both options is the way to go.
Quote
you now have the option to pay $5 for it on a completely new piece of hardware without the hassle of finding a working NES or hooking a NES up to your TV to play it.
I also have the option of buying the original for $5, which is what I choose. It's only a hassle if you make it a hassle. I choose to make it fun. ;D I suppose I should be thanking the VC, because for many games which have been released on it, the price of the originals have gone down a little. Thanks VC!
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Morari on April 29, 2009, 08:24:32 PM
I think that everyone just needs to take better care of their hardware. I still have two NES systems down in the basement, both work flawlessly. The same can be said about my three Genesis consoles (all three different versions at that!). This carries onto newer consoles as well, including my Playstation, Saturn, and both Dreamcasts. Now to be fair, the one Dreamcast was actually hooked up and being played on occasion until recently, but all of the others have been sitting haphazardly in my basement for years and years. Every now and then I'll get one out, hook it up, and play the **** out of the games for a few weeks before putting it back away. Hell, even my Atari is still working!
And don't even get me started on all of those DOS games that I continue to partake in. ;)
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Deguello on April 30, 2009, 04:32:42 AM
I'm not so keen on Digital Distribution myself, mainly because it will add a further ethical and possibly financial argument in the favor of piracy.
If I may don the cape of free market crap... The act of buying a disc with a game on it is the exchange of money for a physical product. The product is a thing that you can hold in our hand and prove your ownership of it.
Digital Distribution is different. Digital Distribution is the act of giving money for the service of having bits of data installed onto my disk. This service will likely be charged the same (or possibly slightly lesser) money as a physical product, as the savings will most likely not be passed to us (Case in point, Burnout Paradise. $50 Digital Download, $19 Disc) But since it is now a service, there will be a wealth of people who will spring up to perform this service ranging from online retail distributors like Amazon, or people who will do this service absolutely free of charge. The idea behind software piracy as a crime is that pirates buy a product, copy the contents, and either distribute on the internet or print them out for backup or possibly illegal selling. But take out the actual product in this equation, and what's left? Two competing "service providers," one who will charge MSRP and one whose price is most likely zero.
That's the financial reason for "piracy" in the Digital Distribution age. The ethical one is that when these entertainment things are no longer on actual physical products, what is there to pirate? The law is going to have a fun time of it catching up to technology.
And by no means am I supporting or condoning piracy, but the arguments and justifications will certainly be a lot stronger for it if we kick out physical media completely.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 30, 2009, 11:18:03 AM
WiiWare has left a sour taste in my mouth to digital distribution.
I could see a single company deciding to package several of their WiiWare games onto a single disc, but it would have to be a publisher with several games available, and I just don't see who that would be at this point.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 30, 2009, 03:23:52 PM
I'm not sure how much of that was directed at me (if any), but I don't think digital distribution is evil
It was from a general scan of the thread, really. I mentioned that Steam users could resell their games because Ian had mentioned not being able to do so while DD has clearly made allowances for this as well.
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I also have the option of buying the original for $5, which is what I choose. It's only a hassle if you make it a hassle. I choose to make it fun. ;D
I don't see how this can't be a hassle, honestly.
1. Every additional piece of hardware that I need to connect to my TV adds more clutter and wires. It's highly impractical to have an NES, SNES, Genesis and TurboGrafix hooked up if I want to play any games from those consoles, especially considering none of them had wireless controllers or cords that could reach to where ever I want to be in my living room.
2. TVs don't have that many inputs, anyway. I already have a switchbox full from the Wii, PS3, 360 and Dreamcast. I'd have to daisy-chain another one in to get any more consoles in there.
3. Save states on VC games are just awesome. Being able to hit the menu button and come back to the game later at the same point is a godsend.
I understand some of the nostalgia factor, but really, having one console that can play all of these games is a godsend for both cost and convenience.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on April 30, 2009, 03:32:53 PM
That's the financial reason for "piracy" in the Digital Distribution age. The ethical one is that when these entertainment things are no longer on actual physical products, what is there to pirate? The law is going to have a fun time of it catching up to technology.
What is there to pirate? What kind of question is this? Copyright law is already crystal clear on the subject. You either have the right to distribute copies or you don't. You can only have that right if you're the content creator or a contractually licensed agent of the content creator. Everyone else: Pirates!
How could digital distribution possibly confuse that issue? As I already said, the work is not the disc. We have always been talking about work that has no physical manifestation. The disc is just a crutch to make the work sellable in a market that only knows how to deal in physical goods. Piracy isn't copying the disc. It's copying the content of the disc. Take away the disc, and piracy is simply copying the content.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Deguello on April 30, 2009, 03:51:59 PM
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It's copying the content of the disc. Take away the disc, and piracy is simply copying the content.
Which would be pretty hard to prove in court. I mean say you steal my bike, and it is found in your garage. I can say, "Look, there is my bike. It is right there." Ephemeral content is hard to prove the theft of. Say you steal me Bilingual Iconography-Kinetic Emulator and a copy is found on your computer. How in the hell do I prove you stole it from me? Like I said, there's nothing to pirate.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 30, 2009, 04:00:50 PM
Which would be pretty hard to prove in court. I mean say you steal my bike, and it is found in your garage. I can say, "Look, there is my bike. It is right there." Ephemeral content is hard to prove the theft of. Say you steal me Bilingual Iconography-Kinetic Emulator and a copy is found on your computer. How in the hell do I prove you stole it from me? Like I said, there's nothing to pirate.
I think you're using the wrong example here.
A bike is a physical object that cannot be "replicated", and what you're describing here is "theft", not piracy.
Piracy is making illegal copies of something that can be "copied" and either using it yourself or selling it for cash.
You can pirate anything that can be in digital format, including movies, music and software. If you have a copy of the software and you didn't pay for it, you've pirated it. It's that simple.
Software can be pirated regardless of how it's distributed.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on April 30, 2009, 04:03:43 PM
Maybe you really mean there's no physical evidence of piracy, because the act happened regardless of whether you're found guilty in court. Still, if digital distribution is the only distribution, then there are going to be limited legal channels for acquiring the software, and proving whether or not you used one would be trivial. In the real world, where there are still a bazillion places to buy a disc with cash, I fail to see how not being able to prosecute Joe User would matter any more than it already does.
I can't really go any further without derailing this even more.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 30, 2009, 04:05:56 PM
Yeah, both iTunes and the Wii Shop Channel have a list of everything you've purchased and could verify whether or not you own something, same with Steam.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 30, 2009, 04:07:49 PM
Dear Industry,
To make Digital Distro work, please lower the prices of... EVERYTHING.
Otherwise, get fucked.
Signed,
The Consumer
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Deguello on April 30, 2009, 05:08:19 PM
There's also the issue of competition, too.
Say Sony does what they say they are going to do makes the next PSP or whatever a digital distribution only device. That would limit their potential customer base to those who buy the PSPs and take them online, and even the 360 has like 10 or so million units out there that don't connect to the internet. Second, it would completely cede the Wal-marts and Gamestops to the competition. Imagine walking into a Walmart and seeing that they sell PSP2s but no games for them, or worse, empty game boxes with little slips of paper that tell you to connect to the internet, sign up for PSN, and use the code to receive a game as fast as your internet connection will provide (assuming it is up and running at the moment.)
Or look over at the DS2 case and see a shelf stocked full of games that you can plug in and play within seconds. It would look, to the average consumer, that the PSP2 is some sort of failed machine that nobody makes games for. Now imagine this with the big consoles. Imagine Sony and MS going completely DigitDistro and only physically shipping their consoles. That would make the entire game store look like some sort of Nintendo paradise. The physical market is not one to throw away so easily, and unless they start pulling down Wii Fit's revenue numbers (Highest ever for a single videogame, 17 million+ $89 = Holy Frijoles, imagine the profit), I'd say Digital distribution remains a place for classic titles and new ideas, but not a means of building an entire industry's retail around.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Ian Sane on April 30, 2009, 05:26:00 PM
Deg's point about piracy has made me think of something. Yeah WiiWare and iTunes and such keep track of what you've bought so it would make it easy to say if you obtained something legally or not. But why would a select few stores be the only options? In the real world I go to any store and buy a physical product and I assume that they legally obtained it to sell it to me. I have no evidence that Wal-Mart didn't steal a truckload of goods and then sold them to me. I assume quite fairly that they didn't but I can't say for certain. But because of serial numbers it would easy to catch a store that was doing that. Same with pirated goods. I buy a clear knock-off at a store and I have easy evidence of it.
So in the future let's say we have various websites selling digital goods. How do I know this website is really allowed to sell that song or that movie or that videogame? Because there is no physical good they can just obtain a copy and sell it. It could be indistinguishable from the real thing to me.
Okay a way around that is to only have a handful of stores. But then we have monopolies. There's no competition. WiiWare has no competition. I can price check at stores to find the best price for a game, particularly if it's been out for a while. Different stores might have it marked down. I have some power as a consumer. There is no alternative for WiiWare. Now right now WiiWare does still have to compete with physical games so there isn't quite a monopoly there. But in a digital only world?
We could have a future where only a small amount of "stores" exist and that gives them considerably more power than any corporation has today. This is entertainment which is optional so we're not talking about charging $1000 a game here. But if the option is "pay what we want" or no music, video or videogames they can charge as much as they feel they could possibly get away with. There is an amount that is borderline gouging but still is low enough that in the absense of entertainment people will pay.
You run the risk of phony "stores" selling pirated goods with the general public not being able to tell for sure what stores are legit and what aren't. You can bypass the risk by restricting the stores but then that removes competition.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: KDR_11k on April 30, 2009, 05:53:03 PM
Generally going download only with mass-market games is only really viable once other media have done the same. There's already a large number of people using music downloads, if this expands enough to make the disc sales irrelevant it should be feasible to sell games online too as people are already used to looking for stuff online.
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So in the future let's say we have various websites selling digital goods. How do I know this website is really allowed to sell that song or that movie or that videogame?
If it's not allowed to it'll quickly get sued unless it's some small operation that flies under the radar, a store that remains in bsiness for any real period of time won't engage in something as blatantly sueable as copyright infringement, especially of goods that have multi-billion dollar companies with matching legal teams behind them. And I think we all know what to expect from small stores in Hong Kong that sell games at 10% of their MSRP, digital or not...
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Okay a way around that is to only have a handful of stores. But then we have monopolies. There's no competition. WiiWare has no competition.
That's because WiiWare is an extension of the console monopoly. Consoles are generally about lock-in. The PC has several competing download services that offer different pricedrops, different takes on DRM, etc. If you don't want a monopoly don't get a console.
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But if the option is "pay what we want" or no music, video or videogames they can charge as much as they feel they could possibly get away with.
The impression I get is that they're already doing that and implicitly colluding with each other to keep the MSRPs consistent between different publishers. While stores sometimes go below the publisher's price it's fairly rare and most sales happen pretty much near the current MSRP.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Stratos on April 30, 2009, 07:03:51 PM
In response to illegal D/L sites like Ian mentioned, there is one Russian based site that sells MP3s at a dirt cheap price (like $0.10/MB) because they are all pirated. I think you could be punished by your government in some countries if you are caught D/Ling fro them and a lot of other countries are fighting to have them taken down but Russia won't force them out of business.
I think word of mouth and a little research will protect you from D/Ling from these places. How do you know that iTunes, Steam or Amazon MP3 are legit? Word of mouth, news and reviews. That Russian site? It sounded fishy and the prices were too good to be true so I looked them up on Google and Wikipedia and got a fuller story regarding them.
I got on their site and it felt like walking into a garage filled with bootlegs. You can tell so long as you keep from being blind and ignorant.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 30, 2009, 07:19:21 PM
That's because WiiWare is an extension of the console monopoly. Consoles are generally about lock-in. The PC has several competing download services that offer different pricedrops, different takes on DRM, etc. If you don't want a monopoly don't get a console. s. While stores sometimes go below the publisher's price it's fairly rare and most sales happen pretty much near the current MSRP.
Consoles have no monopoly in Europe. The console manufacturers are not legally allowed to stop a company from releasing games on their systems their. That is why a company like Phoenix Games exists and why they have released hundreds of PS2 games that border on copyright infringement (mainly with Disney). It's because Sony legally can't stop them from releasing games on the PS2/PS3/PSP in Europe.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Stratos on April 30, 2009, 07:26:09 PM
That's because WiiWare is an extension of the console monopoly. Consoles are generally about lock-in. The PC has several competing download services that offer different pricedrops, different takes on DRM, etc. If you don't want a monopoly don't get a console. s. While stores sometimes go below the publisher's price it's fairly rare and most sales happen pretty much near the current MSRP.
Consoles have no monopoly in Europe. The console manufacturers are not legally allowed to stop a company from releasing games on their systems their. That is why a company like Phoenix Games exists and why they have released hundreds of PS2 games that border on copyright infringement (mainly with Disney). It's because Sony legally can't stop them from releasing games on the PS2/PS3/PSP in Europe.
Really? That seems...strange. How did your government come to that conclusion?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on April 30, 2009, 07:40:00 PM
1. Every additional piece of hardware that I need to connect to my TV adds more clutter and wires. 2. TVs don't have that many inputs, anyway. I already have a switchbox full from the Wii, PS3, 360 and Dreamcast. 3. Save states on VC games are just awesome.
1. Personal preference. I like to have my television surrounded by systems, it makes it much more gamey. 2. Personal problem. I have seven systems connected to my television without using a switchbox. 3. People are lazy. Personally I hate convenience, it just makes everyone lazy and impatient. If humans were truly intelligent beings, they'd invent machines which do things less effectively.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 30, 2009, 07:49:54 PM
That's because WiiWare is an extension of the console monopoly. Consoles are generally about lock-in. The PC has several competing download services that offer different pricedrops, different takes on DRM, etc. If you don't want a monopoly don't get a console. s. While stores sometimes go below the publisher's price it's fairly rare and most sales happen pretty much near the current MSRP.
Consoles have no monopoly in Europe. The console manufacturers are not legally allowed to stop a company from releasing games on their systems their. That is why a company like Phoenix Games exists and why they have released hundreds of PS2 games that border on copyright infringement (mainly with Disney). It's because Sony legally can't stop them from releasing games on the PS2/PS3/PSP in Europe.
Really? That seems...strange. How did your government come to that conclusion?
I don't live in Europe (I live in the United States, New York to be exact), and I don't exactly know why the European Union has such strict laws. It's the same stupid reason Microsoft keeps getting sued just for including Windows and Windows Media Player with PC's (never mind that users can just remove these if they want, and that they don't HAVE to use Internet Explorer). They seem to think it's wrong for a company to control what is released on their system.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Morari on April 30, 2009, 08:03:23 PM
That's the financial reason for "piracy" in the Digital Distribution age. The ethical one is that when these entertainment things are no longer on actual physical products, what is there to pirate? The law is going to have a fun time of it catching up to technology.
What is there to pirate? What kind of question is this? Copyright law is already crystal clear on the subject. You either have the right to distribute copies or you don't. You can only have that right if you're the content creator or a contractually licensed agent of the content creator. Everyone else: Pirates!
How could digital distribution possibly confuse that issue? As I already said, the work is not the disc. We have always been talking about work that has no physical manifestation. The disc is just a crutch to make the work sellable in a market that only knows how to deal in physical goods. Piracy isn't copying the disc. It's copying the content of the disc. Take away the disc, and piracy is simply copying the content.
Copyright law is anything but crystal clear and that's a large part of the problem. Due to all of these companies, it would be illegal for me to circumnavigate their anti-piracy measures in order to play the game years and years from now once it has stopped working legitimately. And that's just a quick example. The very fact that copyright infringement carries a harsher penalty than walking into the store and stealing a physical copy of a game goes to show just how much corporations have messed up our laws.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 01, 2009, 01:14:03 AM
. Personally I hate convenience, it just makes everyone lazy and impatient. If humans were truly intelligent beings, they'd invent machines which do things less effectively.
That just may be the craziest thing I've ever read, and that's coming from someone who spends a lot of tim reading things on the internet.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on May 01, 2009, 01:42:29 AM
. Personally I hate convenience, it just makes everyone lazy and impatient. If humans were truly intelligent beings, they'd invent machines which do things less effectively.
That just may be the craziest thing I've ever read, and that's coming from someone who spends a lot of tim reading things on the internet.
Thank you, I try. :) Think about it though: the faster and easier things become, the higher people's expectations will become. Pretty soon, people will be so impatient that they'll want everything to happen instantly and effortlessly. Impatience is stressful, and stress = unhappiness.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: KDR_11k on May 01, 2009, 04:07:50 AM
Consoles have no monopoly in Europe. The console manufacturers are not legally allowed to stop a company from releasing games on their systems their. That is why a company like Phoenix Games exists and why they have released hundreds of PS2 games that border on copyright infringement (mainly with Disney). It's because Sony legally can't stop them from releasing games on the PS2/PS3/PSP in Europe.
Are you sure Phoenix Games is unlicensed? The box arts shown on their website clearly have the regular logos on them which would be trademark infringement. To me it looks more like SCEE doesn't have SCEA's anti-shovelware policies.
I don't live in Europe (I live in the United States, New York to be exact), and I don't exactly know why the European Union has such strict laws. It's the same stupid reason Microsoft keeps getting sued just for including Windows and Windows Media Player with PC's (never mind that users can just remove these if they want, and that they don't HAVE to use Internet Explorer). They seem to think it's wrong for a company to control what is released on their system.
AFAIK the US actually sued MS for that too, the US courts just gave them a "punishment" that was a total joke. The issue is that MS is an OS monopoly and used that to gain a monopoly position in the media player and web browser markets too. Yes, users can decide to pick something else but that takes effort over simply staying with the default and most people simply don't know that IE is a total pile of garbage that has been holding the internet back for years. It takes an informed choice to go with the competition, it merely requires lazyness to stay with MS. Thus MS has an automatic advantage by being able to dictate the default option using their OS monopoly. Antitrust laws ban that practice in the US and EU.
Thank you, I try. :) Think about it though: the faster and easier things become, the higher people's expectations will become. Pretty soon, people will be so impatient that they'll want everything to happen instantly and effortlessly. Impatience is stressful, and stress = unhappiness.
You liked Fahrenheit 451 then?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on May 01, 2009, 04:10:25 AM
Copyright law is anything but crystal clear and that's a large part of the problem.
I said crystal clear on the subject. It is clear that you can infringe even when you're dealing with purely digital works. It is clear that only the owner of a copyright can legally make or authorize copies. It can be unclear who actually owns a copyright, but that's a matter of untangling contracts, not copyright law.
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Due to all of these companies, it would be illegal for me to circumnavigate their anti-piracy measures in order to play the game years and years from now once it has stopped working legitimately.
I don't think we can get into that issue without overstepping the rules. Let's not get another thread locked. That's Stogi's job.
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The very fact that copyright infringement carries a harsher penalty than walking into the store and stealing a physical copy of a game goes to show just how much corporations have messed up our laws.
Messed up isn't the same as unclear. It sounds like you understand the law just fine, but you don't like it. That's a separate issue (and once again, outside the rules of this forum).
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: TJ Spyke on May 01, 2009, 04:28:20 PM
Are you sure Phoenix Games is unlicensed? The box arts shown on their website clearly have the regular logos on them which would be trademark infringement. To me it looks more like SCEE doesn't have SCEA's anti-shovelware policies.
I didn't say they were un-licensed, just that Sony can't say no. Any company that wants to release a video game in Europe can, the console manufacturers can refuse to license them.
I don't live in Europe (I live in the United States, New York to be exact), and I don't exactly know why the European Union has such strict laws. It's the same stupid reason Microsoft keeps getting sued just for including Windows and Windows Media Player with PC's (never mind that users can just remove these if they want, and that they don't HAVE to use Internet Explorer). They seem to think it's wrong for a company to control what is released on their system. AFAIK the US actually sued MS for that too, the US courts just gave them a "punishment" that was a total joke. The issue is that MS is an OS monopoly and used that to gain a monopoly position in the media player and web browser markets too. Yes, users can decide to pick something else but that takes effort over simply staying with the default and most people simply don't know that IE is a total pile of garbage that has been holding the internet back for years. It takes an informed choice to go with the competition, it merely requires lazyness to stay with MS. Thus MS has an automatic advantage by being able to dictate the default option using their OS monopoly. Antitrust laws ban that practice in the US and EU.
The EU has sued Microsoft many, many times. Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly, but the EU seems to think so. I don't use IE anymore, but it is not garbage. No one is forcing computer manufacturers from bundling a different OS or Internet browser. The EU is a complete joke and should not have any legal authority.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Smash_Brother on May 01, 2009, 05:09:27 PM
1. Personal preference. I like to have my television surrounded by systems, it makes it much more gamey. 2. Personal problem. I have seven systems connected to my television without using a switchbox. 3. People are lazy. Personally I hate convenience, it just makes everyone lazy and impatient. If humans were truly intelligent beings, they'd invent machines which do things less effectively.
You are most certainly the exception and far from the rule, meaning I would be hesitant to use your situation as a basis for arguing in favor of everything having to be on retail.
Furthermore, I'm most certain that you're going to see more and more companies move to the downloadable model.
Why is Sony experimenting with Patapon 2 as a download ticket? Because this means the game cannot be sold back to Gamestop and resold as a used game 15 more times.
Look at it this way: Nintendo hates piracy and will go through great lengths to shut it down, even so far as to find the base of operations of a piracy outfit.
They hate piracy because it cuts into sales. However, piracy is just a whisper on the SCREAM that is Gamestop. How many billions of dollars in sales has Gamestop cost game publishers?
Considering that the entire business model of Gamestop revolves around selling used games instead of new games, I think it's safe to say that every game publisher in the world would be happy as all hell to see Gamestop out of the picture.
And it's only getting worse, since TRU and other retailers have recently announced that they too will be reselling used games.
The push to digitial distribution is going to come harder and harder as more retailers cut into the profits of publishers, just as many musicians were happy to put their MP3s up on iTunes instead of letting the record companies take 98% of the profit on every CD sale.
And FYI, iTunes is the 2nd largest retailer of music in the US, just behind Wal-Mart (who they're still gaining on).
With publishers having EVERY incentive to move to DD, I think it'd be foolish to expect the future to go anywhere but there. It'll take some time, but I see it as inevitable.
The music industry already did it and plenty of game dev houses make their living publisher-free via DD and have never seen a reason to go to retail. Why would they start now?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on May 01, 2009, 05:58:43 PM
Unfortunately digital distribution is inevitable, and it's yet another sad reflection on the age of technology. I can only hope it doesn't happen within my lifetime, or at least the portion of my life when I actually care.
I also doubt the sale of used games hurts the industry as much as some people say, given that the money people get from selling their games often goes towards buying new games. But I guess we'll never know until physical copies are out of the equation.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Smash_Brother on May 01, 2009, 06:16:33 PM
Unfortunately digital distribution is inevitable, and it's yet another sad reflection on the age of technology. I can only hope it doesn't happen within my lifetime, or at least the portion of my life when I actually care.
I also doubt the sale of used games hurts the industry as much as some people say, given that the money people get from selling their games often goes towards buying new games. But I guess we'll never know until physical copies are out of the equation.
I don't think it'll be as bad as it seems. The thing to remember here is that the industry is and always will be market driven, meaning that even as download services progress, the concerns that have been voiced here will be reiterated many times over by consumers and no doubt will be addressed.
Steam already does an excellent job of ensuring that players "own" their games and can even give/resell them to another person if they like. Also, if Steam were to ever "go away", I assume they'd have some means of releasing all games from the DRM that currently affects them.
As for used games, it's hard to say, but the thing you have to remember is that Gamestop tends to charge only $5-10 less for a used game in many cases, especially with popular games. Most gamers would've probably paid that extra if the used copy wasn't available to them but opt for the used copy to save a few bucks. That's definitely a lost sale.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on May 01, 2009, 06:22:09 PM
I want physical copies. I want to display my boxes, cases, and games on shelves. I'm not sure how many collectors are out there in the world but I can tell you every single one of them are not happy about digital distribution.
Perhaps the "special edition" of download games would be a physical copy for us collectors?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Smash_Brother on May 02, 2009, 02:29:31 AM
I could see a situation where collectors can purchase content via DD and pay for the disc+box in addition to be mailed to them for an extra fee, and all still cheaper than what a normal retail copy would cost, heh.
In fact, I like that idea a lot...
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: KDR_11k on May 02, 2009, 03:23:54 AM
The EU has sued Microsoft many, many times. Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly, but the EU seems to think so. I don't use IE anymore, but it is not garbage. No one is forcing computer manufacturers from bundling a different OS or Internet browser. The EU is a complete joke and should not have any legal authority.
lolwut? You realize monopolies don't have the insane standard "absolutely no competition" because noone would ever hit that?
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just as many musicians were happy to put their MP3s up on iTunes instead of letting the record companies take 98% of the profit on every CD sale.
Hahaha, they didn't read their contracts then because the label gets the same cut even when it does absolutely nothing because the musicians sign their rights over to the label, labels even sued their own musicians for putting up free songs on their own websites. You think you can screw Mephistopheles on his own contract?
I want physical copies. I want to display my boxes, cases, and games on shelves. I'm not sure how many collectors are out there in the world but I can tell you every single one of them are not happy about digital distribution.
I collect boxes too but now I'm running out of space to put them into. Plus I'm too lazy to dig the games out of these piles and insert the discs when I have so many games that only need a click on their icon to be played.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Morari on May 02, 2009, 04:19:16 PM
Also, if Steam were to ever "go away", I assume they'd have some means of releasing all games from the DRM that currently affects them.
They have the means, as does any other developer. The question is, would they actually do it if it comes down to that? I'd be willing to bet that the likelihood is rather low. Unless Valve simply decides to stop using Steam, the only other scenario is them going out of business. If a company is going under/being bought out/etc, working to NOT make money will be the last thing on their minds.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on May 02, 2009, 04:48:12 PM
I could see a situation where collectors can purchase content via DD and pay for the disc+box in addition to be mailed to them for an extra fee, and all still cheaper than what a normal retail copy would cost, heh.
That's not a bad idea, but I doubt it would be less than current retail games if for no other reason than companies would figure that if people were set on getting a physical copy, they'd pay a premium price for it.
That still eliminates the need for retail stores though. I still want to shop for games too.
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Stratos on May 02, 2009, 06:18:27 PM
That still eliminates the need for retail stores though. I still want to shop for games too.
A virtual Amazon store! You could travel through it and pull items off the shelves and look at them. You can look at preview pages of a book online, why not look at a virtual back of the box?
Title: Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)
Post by: Mop it up on May 02, 2009, 08:07:12 PM
It doesn't matter how you dress up an online store, that still isn't shopping! If you order something online and call yourself a shopper, that would be like buying a pound of ground beef and calling yourself a hunter. You get the reward without the fun part.
