Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Chozo Ghost on February 27, 2009, 07:07:09 AM
Title: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 27, 2009, 07:07:09 AM
Nintendo is doing great, no doubt about it, and I am pleased about that. But I can't help but think this success is coming at a cost. What made Nintendo great from the NES years onward wasn't that it was the market leader, but that the games were of stellar quality and that made owning Nintendo systems worthwhile even if third party support was ****. And during the NES and SNES years Nintendo coupled 3rd party support with excellent 1st party offerings.
But is this still true with the Wii? Though the Wii is the undisputed market leader, the only new franchises Nintendo had introduced is non-games like Wii Fit and Wii Music and Wii Resort. We do enjoy rehashes of core classic NIntendo games like Zelda and Mario, but where is the new hardcore stuff? Nintendo has apparently realized softcore games are cheap to develop and sell extremely well, so that's pretty much all they focus on now. Longstanding Nintendo fans are "rewarded" with rehashes of recycled franchises, but all the new stuff goes to wooing grandmas. What gives?
Remember when the Gamecube only did games and nothing else? Many people complained about that, but I thought it was the right way to go. When you try to shove a lot of capabilities into one device you lose focus and you end up excelling at nothing. This is the problem with the PS3 and 360. While they do play games, they also want to do movies and everything else at the same time. Well, Nintendo used to be above that, but look at the DSi and you see they are caving in somewhat to the same sort of behavior that led Sony to develop the PSP. The PSP is a jack of all trades, but a master of nothing. If you want a gaming device, you get a DS. If you want a multimedia device, you're better off getting an iphone or ipod. The PSP can do all those things, but it can't do them terribly well.
But the main issue is the games. Nintendo is a wealthy company now (actually they have been for many years), so why do they just horde their wealth? They should be using their wealth to build and acquire new studios and start pumping out new franchises, especially ones geared towards their hardcore fans. The 20th incarnation of Mario or Zelda can only satisfy old guard fans for so long, eventually we want something new and fresh, but where is it? I'm not a non-gamer really at all. I can play them for 15 minutes or so and then I'm done. I need more 40+ hour epics.
I think Nintendo's problem came when they became successful again. They were succesful in the 80s and 90s too, but there was something different then that I can't really put my finger on. Maybe its because many of the people who made Nintendo great back then have left the company, or have become older and had their interests change which unfortunately seems to be the case with Miyamoto. Yes, Nintendo is a huge success once again, but it seems they've sold their soul to get there. Has success made Nintendo no different than any other huge company? Are they now really no different than Sony or MS?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: KDR_11k on February 27, 2009, 09:20:30 AM
Do you think the NES revived gaming by appealing to the hardcore gamers? Those were playing computers anyway. Everything you see as hardcore gaming now was once introduced as casual gaming.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Nick DiMola on February 27, 2009, 09:24:59 AM
Really, this tired argument again? I'll let this ride for a bit, but if it devolves into the same old debate, I'm locking this quick, fast, and in a hurry.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on February 27, 2009, 09:34:39 AM
But is this still true with the Wii? Though the Wii is the undisputed market leader, the only new franchises Nintendo had introduced is non-games like Wii Fit and Wii Music and Wii Resort. We do enjoy rehashes of core classic NIntendo games like Zelda and Mario, but where is the new hardcore stuff? Nintendo has apparently realized softcore games are cheap to develop and sell extremely well, so that's pretty much all they focus on now. Longstanding Nintendo fans are "rewarded" with rehashes of recycled franchises, but all the new stuff goes to wooing grandmas. What gives?
False, Nintendo was always about appealing to everyone, Nintendo always does new franchises so I don't know where you have been especially when there is EXCITE!!, just because a specific new game from Nintendo appeals you doesn't mean that Nintendo abandoned you, if you think that there was always hardcore gaming that's false NES even had a piano training game! But the reason we get "rehashes" is because it's Nintendo's staple franchises and there's demand for them always it's like saying that Sony shouldn't make anymore God of War games and Microsoft shouldn't make Halo games anymore. Also where have you been Nintendo released a bunch of hardcore games: Battalion Wars 2, Excite Truck, Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn, LOZ:TP, Mario Kart Wii, Mario Strikers, Mario Sluggers, Metroid Prime 3, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Paper Mario, Super Smash Bros Brawl, Wario Land Shake It, Wario Ware: Smooth Moves. So learn your facts before you claim that Nintendo has just given up, I think Nintendo has a good balance between catering for both the Nintendo fans and games that appeal to everyone.
Remember when the Gamecube only did games and nothing else? Many people complained about that, but I thought it was the right way to go. When you try to shove a lot of capabilities into one device you lose focus and you end up excelling at nothing. This is the problem with the PS3 and 360. While they do play games, they also want to do movies and everything else at the same time. Well, Nintendo used to be above that, but look at the DSi and you see they are caving in somewhat to the same sort of behavior that led Sony to develop the PSP. The PSP is a jack of all trades, but a master of nothing. If you want a gaming device, you get a DS. If you want a multimedia device, you're better off getting an iphone or ipod. The PSP can do all those things, but it can't do them terribly well.
Microsoft and Sony always focus on multimedia first then gaming second like I said in another thread before and Nintendo is about gaming first and added value stuff second. I don't really think that the DSi is caving in to that since part of the reason they are using cameras is for gameplay purposes like the new Wario Ware on DSi deals with using the camera. Also yes there is multimedia stuff on the DSi and the DSi won't do a bunch of things well like audio files can only be played in the AAC format. But Nintendo in my eyes is trying to go after the iphone in a way since Apple has a apps store that you can download and buy neat applications and Nintendo always wanted ways to implement added value solutions with the DSL since you saw their failed attempts(commercially) with a MP3 player add on and internet browser but these times they are integrated into the machine now.
But the main issue is the games. Nintendo is a wealthy company now (actually they have been for many years), so why do they just horde their wealth? They should be using their wealth to build and acquire new studios and start pumping out new franchises, especially ones geared towards their hardcore fans. The 20th incarnation of Mario or Zelda can only satisfy old guard fans for so long, eventually we want something new and fresh, but where is it? I'm not a non-gamer really at all. I can play them for 15 minutes or so and then I'm done. I need more 40+ hour epics.
I don't know where you have been but Nintendo made a new building in Kyoto, formed Project Sora with Sora (Nintendo being the principal investor), they just announced a bunch of release dates and 2 new games: Excitebots:Trick Racing and Legend of Starfy. Also Nintendo announced another model of the classic controller for people who didn't like the first one you just have to wait for the announcement since I think Nintendo was burned with LOZ:TP coming out way later than they wanted it to. Also you don't need to stick with only Nintendo games on Nintendo systems there are a bunch of great third party games on Wii despite what anyone says.
I think Nintendo's problem came when they became successful again. They were succesful in the 80s and 90s too, but there was something different then that I can't really put my finger on. Maybe its because many of the people who made Nintendo great back then have left the company, or have become older and had their interests change which unfortunately seems to be the case with Miyamoto. Yes, Nintendo is a huge success once again, but it seems they've sold their soul to get there. Has success made Nintendo no different than any other huge company? Are they now really no different than Sony or MS?
People always come and go you can never really change that however in my eyes Nintendo didn't change, people's tastes did in my opinion. Also Wii, Gamecube and SNES are my favorite Nintendo consoles since those are the Nintendo systems I had the most fun with. Just because Nintendo is focusing on a more broader audience(which is a lie since Nintendo always tried to target everyone) to rekindle a dying market in Japan and to reverse the trend of Nintendo consoles shrinking and shrinking in user base, if your user base shrinks every 6 years or so the best business sense is to change your strategy of course.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 27, 2009, 10:51:28 AM
Nintendo is definitely losing touch with it's roots, they're making all these "video games" when they should be focusing on Hanafuda cards.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 27, 2009, 11:33:35 AM
Nintendo is definitely losing touch with it's roots, they're making all these "video games" when they should be focusing on Hanafuda cards.
LOL.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: SirSniffy on February 27, 2009, 12:12:02 PM
I understand the TC perfectly, but I don't think that it's entirely Nintendo's fault. And I don't think it's losing it's touch. Nintendo today is the same virtually as Nintendo in the 1980's and 1990's. What's changed are the goals of developers, the change in tastes of gamers, and in the landscape in general.
It's not that Nintendo doesn't have enough "hardcore" games, because dammit how much more hardcore can you get than living in a town full of animals, and exchanging gifts with people? It's more of the idea that Nintendo doesn't have the kind of 3rd party support it had back then. Back then you had NES/SNES and SMS/Genesis...Developers chose Nintendo, the system that had more of a userbase.
Nowadays, with developers in a crunch to create better content, and now with more options with regards to platforms, Developers are gonna' go with the platform that is more in line with their goals. Unfortunately that translates to not only to which system has the broader user base, but also to which system has the specs to deliver the content they want. Sure, they could scale down the content and put it on the Wii, but would it be worth it if they have to alter their goals so drastically?
So it's not for Nintendo's lack of trying, they have not changed, they are just taking what has been working for the past 2 years, and running with it. Which means more pony and dog grooming games, more Nintendo home game sequels, and more quirky games for you Aunt Rosalind. I personally am happy with all the games coming out on the Wii lately...and for me to say that...when I am usually negative about everything...is a feat in itself. :P
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 27, 2009, 12:28:04 PM
Nintendo is successfully cutting ties with its delusional pretend fans that had no hand in making the company successful. Their sales were not responsible for keeping the company afloat during the dark GameCube ages, since there aren't many of them in the first place, yet they like to think Nintendo is still around because of them. When Nintendo listens to its fans, it leads to disaster. Nintendo woke up and realized "you morons are killing us, you only buy 2 or 3 games a year, and you spend most of your time complaining on the internet. **** this, we're going to make games fun again. games are entertainment, not art."
JUSTICE.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Ymeegod on February 27, 2009, 02:28:42 PM
Money, nintendo isn't doing anything different IMO but you can't expect publishers to spend millions on ideas that are "iffy".
And also you have to factor in time. Not only does it cost more to develope but it also takes alot longer than those ole 16bit games.
The DS = the new snes IMO.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 27, 2009, 04:46:26 PM
This new IP argument is really strange. Are we including internally published games only? If so Nintendo has never been big about new IPs, with the GC we got Pikmin, and um, yeah. On Wii we've gotten Captain Rainbow, Disaster (though to be fair they weren't always internal!), Wii Sports, and Wii Fit. I do take issue with the fact that Mario Galaxy is a rehash, the game does some many new things for the platformer, heck I remember people freaking out because they thought it was too different! What about Nintendo revisiting franchises that we haven't seen for a long time, or no one expected to come back (like Sin and Punishment), do they get no credit for that?
Nintendo is far from losing their video gaming roots, they are just making MORE stuff then ever before. Not to mention publishing things that the Nintendo of old wouldn't dare publish like Fatal Frame. Nintendo is still at its core a gaming company, maybe one with a larger scope in the games it creates but they are still a video game company.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 27, 2009, 04:52:28 PM
Cue Ian and any angsty, angry Nintendo fanboy in three, two, one...
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on February 27, 2009, 06:49:29 PM
Nintendo is fine and has good 3rd party support that is growing every day. I'm still a fan. There have been a number of quality epic scale titles already released by Nintendo and others. More is on the way constantly. Maybe I just have less disposable income than you, but I can't keep up with all the great games coming out on Wii.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Ian Sane on February 27, 2009, 07:46:25 PM
Quote
Cue Ian and any angsty, angry Nintendo fanboy in three, two, one...
What am I supposed to say that Chozo Ghost didn't already say? I agree with him, simple as that. Most people here probably aren't going to. The lack of epic games using new IPs is something I feel very strongly about but few seem to care or they don't notice the problem.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: BeautifulShy on February 27, 2009, 07:51:42 PM
Ian do you recall the October event?There was plenty of New IPs announced there.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on February 27, 2009, 08:38:25 PM
It is true, though, that most of the announced IP's from that conference were not 'epic'. Punch Out isn't the next epic game. Yet, has Nintendo ever been known for really huge Final Fantasy-type epic games?
I see what you mean now. You guys are looking for the 30+ hour experiences like Okami or FF VI, right? Well considering Kid Icarus from Factor-5 is dead, I can't think of anything else that is for sure coming. I'll bet we'll see something at E3. E3 is going to be in May again, right? I think Nintendo learned their lesson last year about not showing anything.
We know that there is a 'new Mario' and a 'new Zelda' coming. Plus Pikmin 3 and judging from how big Pikmin 2 was, that will be awesome. Fatal Frame will probably arrive this year. Since Disaster and Soma Bringer are out (in Japan) Monolith has plenty of time to develop something new for Nintendo. Intelligent Systems just released Fire Emblem on DS so they are free too. Don't forget Retro is probably working on something new along with the two Prime Wii-Leases. There's also Project Sora. HAL isn't up to anything in particular that I know about other that the limbo Kirby game. Silicone Knights may or may not be partnering up with Nintendo for that unnamed thriller project especially if it turns out to be Eternal Darkness 2 since Nintendo holds the copyrights and patents for the game and the sanity system.
Lets list these out: >Fatal Frame >'new Mario'* >'new Zelda'* >Pikmin 3 >Monolith game >Intelligent Systems game >Project Sora game >Retro Studios game >Silicone Knights psychological thriller game >HAL game (maybe Kirby?)
OK, so I count a potential list of ten games. Do any of those interest you Ian and Chozo? Can anyone add to this list at all? Remember this is just 1st and 2nd party projects I am listing. The list would more than triple if we added 3rd party endeavors.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: BeautifulShy on February 27, 2009, 08:52:48 PM
While I'm interested in those titles.I'm talking about NEW IPs. There was a few New IPs announced there. Dynamic Slash, There was that Space game and a few others.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on February 27, 2009, 08:57:45 PM
While I'm interested in those titles.I'm talking about NEW IPs. There was a few New IPs announced there. Dynamic Slash, There was that Space game and a few others.
??? I think I missed half of the games announced then if those do not ring a bell to me. That would explain my lack of excitement at the Fall conference. The articles I read only spoke of S&P2 and Punch Out.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: BeautifulShy on February 27, 2009, 09:53:32 PM
There is a topic on page 9 right now.Bill started it.It's called Nintendo Retailer Conference.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on February 27, 2009, 09:57:39 PM
I'll check that out, thanks.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: BeautifulShy on February 27, 2009, 10:20:59 PM
Anytime. Sorry for the slight derailment.
Here is my take on this.
The original DS was mainly a system that was purchased by Handheld enthusiast. Once Brain Age and similar games came out I believe it started to take of.Once the DS Lite came out the hardware sales increased significantly.The DS Lite was a intermediate step towards expanding the base.Once the DS Lite came out I believe developers took it more seriously. The DSi is different from the PSP and Iphone because of how it uses its features compaired to the PSP and Iphone.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on February 27, 2009, 10:34:24 PM
Why is part of the word significantly starred out?
So anyway, your saying, Maxi, that Nintendo is currently attempting to broaden their audience and create more gamers in the process? Am I understanding you correctly?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: BeautifulShy on February 27, 2009, 10:42:46 PM
I'm not sure it is starred out.
Yes that is what I am say Stratos.The type of things that the DSi can do will make it so that the DSi will become more apart of their lives.It will ease the new players in more.The DSiware will further it even more than the hardware.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Mop it up on February 27, 2009, 10:45:33 PM
Why is part of the word significantly starred out?
That's why I have the Word Filter switched off, as it filters out strange things sometimes. If you quote the post those of us with the filter switched off will be able to see what it looks like filtered.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on February 28, 2009, 12:48:40 AM
Cue Ian and any angsty, angry Nintendo fanboy in three, two, one...
What am I supposed to say that Chozo Ghost didn't already say? I agree with him, simple as that. Most people here probably aren't going to. The lack of epic games using new IPs is something I feel very strongly about but few seem to care or they don't notice the problem.
Also Ian if you look at the trends of the so called hardcore gamers on HD platforms they favor action games or FPS games that are less than 15 hours long.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 28, 2009, 01:52:42 AM
^ Ian better rewrite is definition of `epic` to catch up with modern HD times.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: KDR_11k on February 28, 2009, 02:41:27 AM
Also Ian if you look at the trends of the so called hardcore gamers on HD platforms they favor action games or FPS games that are less than 15 hours long.
15? The numbers I've seen reviews cite were 5-6 normal, 8-10 for a long game.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on February 28, 2009, 02:48:08 AM
^ Ian better rewrite is definition of `epic` to catch up with modern HD times.
I was just thinking about the definition of the word epic and its various uses traditionally and gaming wise.
Do you think we are slowly desensitizing ourselves to what is epic? Things seem to need to be bigger and better and more involving to attract people. Any epic movie now has to have epic choir accompaniments to interest many of us. Conflicts have to keep getting bigger and bigger to satiate our desire for epic experiences.
We also use the word in different ways. Game length, immersion, conflicts and climax of a story, music, battles, the players decision making, etc.
Maybe I'm thinking too hard on the issue, but I've wondered about this along with attention spans of gamers and movie goers for a bit now. People seem to need bigger wows in smaller doses lest they run the risk of boredom. Do people write off a game if it is not 'epic enough' in their eyes?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 28, 2009, 10:57:30 AM
Also Ian if you look at the trends of the so called hardcore gamers on HD platforms they favor action games or FPS games that are less than 15 hours long.
15? The numbers I've seen reviews cite were 5-6 normal, 8-10 for a long game.
Which is less than 15 hours, as was said.
My personal view is that if you have to spend more than $1 for each hour you get out of a game, you're paying too much. With games like Zelda you're probably going to spend 40 or even more hours in it, so if it costs $49.99 then its worth it. But if its a 360 or PS3 HD game for $59.99 that lasts 5 hours, then that's a huge waste of money, imho. Some might argue the HD visuals make it a better investment, but I disagree. I'd rather have a good terrible looking game than a terrific looking game that can be finished in one sitting.
If a game can be finished overnight or over a weekend then it may be worth $19 or $29, but if I'm paying $39, $49 or (God forbid) $59 then it better take at least an entire week to finish.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Mop it up on February 28, 2009, 04:10:39 PM
I suppose this "epic" game stuff applies only to single-player games, which inherently seem like a bad value to me since they often times have little replay value.
What would something like Mario Kart Wii qualify as? The single-player mode takes about 10 hours to complete 100%, although that includes playing the same tracks repeatedly; it takes only 2 hours to play every track once. But then, there is the multiplayer mode, both local and online, which is probably something that most people are going to be spending the majority of their time with. There's no real way to measure how much play time one could potentially get out of that before they become bored.
After I completed Super Mario Galaxy to 100%, I've not once touched the game since. Not a week has gone by since purchasing Mario Kart Wii in May that I haven't played it at least one day out of the week (though often times more). Which game is more epic?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stogi on February 28, 2009, 04:23:25 PM
The FP is the dumbest thing I've ever read.
Nintendo sold its soul? The Wii fits Nintendo to the "T".
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2009, 08:13:57 PM
The Wii recalls so many things from the NES that I'm sort of disappointed that so many people think Nintendo has somehow changed. Like Kashogi Stogi said, the Wii is Nintendo operating at full speed, and doing what they do best. They're not the exact same company they were in the 80's (for one: they're not using the iron-fist Yamauchi tactics that eventually got them hit with an anti-trust case in 1991), but they're still being driven by the same quest to not listen to what focus groups say (focus groups said the first Mario Bros. SUCKED), but instead look at whether a person was actually experiencing something special when playing a game.
I mean, look at Wii Fit and the NES Power Pad, Duck Hunt and today's arcade shooter games, Mario Paint and Wii Music... the way I see it, Nintendo is more in touch with their roots as ever.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on February 28, 2009, 08:19:19 PM
So would you say then that Nintendo hasn't changed, but it's fans and consumers have changed?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Mop it up on February 28, 2009, 08:45:17 PM
I don't think Nintendo is returning to its roots so much as they are starting over. They tried to evolve along with the fans but look where it lead them: a diminishing market share with each new home console. Now they're starting fresh, with a new concept (Wii), a new market, and some new games to go with it, as well as tailoring their existing franchises to attract some of the different audience they're targeting. Looking at some of the titles Nintendo published on the Nintendo 64, they would be very different games if the Nintendo of today had designed then for Wii. Better? Worse? That is what I can't decide.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 02, 2009, 02:57:11 AM
The only thing "epic" is most closely associated with today is "failure."
That should explain a lot.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Peachylala on March 02, 2009, 03:58:51 PM
Clearly Pro Daisy wins this thread.
I deem it so.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 02, 2009, 04:01:49 PM
My Forum Kart score must be above 7000 now.
9999 are obviously for cheaters.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Ian Sane on March 02, 2009, 05:42:07 PM
When I think of an "epic game" I would think of something with a strong single player mode that has some sort of narrative and characters (though not necessarily very deep ones; gameplay shouldn't be compromised) that has a world to discover and has that feel of being an EVENT. Some games just feel like a big event. And in Nintendo's case their epic games are usually Game of the Year contenders.
Multiplayer-focused games, pick-up-n-play games, niche games, score based games and even non-games have every right to exist. But to me what made Nintendo special was their "epic" titles. That's why when one thinks of the NES they think of the incredibly ambitious Super Mario Bros games and The Legend of Zelda and are less likley to dwell on Donkey Kong Jr or Mario Bros even though those games are great. You talk about the comparisons between the Wii and the NES. To me Super Mario Bros is the NES. That's when Nintendo became NINTENDO as they previously were all about single screen arcade games with one-dimensional gameplay. But from then on they were about making games with so much more ambition in the design and of such a larger scope. That's when Nintendo became about making videogame masterpieces. I can see the comparison to the NES in the revolution kind of way but I certainly don't see the Wii as Nintendo going back to their roots. If they are they've gone back to pre-NES roots and the days of Donkey Kong. Non-games are intentionally restrictive in ambition and scope for the purposes of mass market appeal. I didn't become a Nintendo fan because of their corporate bullshittery but rather their habit of going for the gusto with almost every game.
And as people we all get bored of the same stuff. As great Mario and Zelda are they can't fight the law of diminishing returns. That's why to me the Pikmin games were the biggest highlight of the Cube because they had that same level of ambition as Mario and Zelda but they were covering new ground. So naturally I want Nintendo style "epic games", like they've been masters of for over 20 years, but with some new IPs just to keep things fresh. But then you see the new IP go to stuff like Wii Sports and when Nintendo talks about "core gamers" they just talk about the franchises like that's all we want.
I would say the Nintendo devs that are reliable to deliver a classic "epic game" 99% of the times they attempt it are EAD, Intelligent Systems and Retro. The October conference didn't reveal what these devs were working on so that's why the new stuff revealed then wasn't enough to get my motor running. I'm interested in what those three devs are working on but who knows if those are new IP or not? And in EAD's who knows if it's in the style of classic Nintendo or an intentionally restrained non-game?
If it turns out they're working on a new Mario, Fire Emblem and Metroid Prime wouldn't that just be a little bit stale? Those games would turn out great but it's all very familiar territory. But imagine three new IPs that became as huge as those three.
And if you're talking about money and sales, you're on a completely different planet. That's like answering someone's complaint that there are too many reality shows on TV with "well they do well in the ratings". You just don't get at all what the person is complaining about.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 02, 2009, 05:50:08 PM
I knew it was just a matter of time. Time to bail out of this thread!
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on March 02, 2009, 05:52:04 PM
To me Super Mario Bros is the NES. That's when Nintendo became NINTENDO as they previously were all about single screen arcade games with one-dimensional gameplay. But from then on they were about making games with so much more ambition in the design and of such a larger scope. That's when Nintendo became about making videogame masterpieces.
I honestly don't think anyone at Nintendo, least of all Miyamoto, has ever seen what they do that way. Ever.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 02, 2009, 08:03:59 PM
I agree with what Ian just said for the most part. Every new Nintendo system does get some new IPs, but lately its been stuff catered to casual/non-gamers. The DS introduced Nintendogs and the Wii introduced Wii Sports. Those are the sorts of new franchises Nintendo is introducing these days. "Core" gamers get rehashes of old franchises, but seldom anything new. The Gamecube is often blasted for having a weak lineup, but by this point in its life it introduced more 1st party hardcore franchises than the Wii has so far. The Gamecube gave us Luigi's Mansion, Star Fox Adventures, Pikmin, etc. But where are the equivalent of these on the Wii?
Like Ian said, the games introduced for the Wii are score-based arcade or family style non-games with no plot and no characters. Nintendo is becoming very predictable in what their gaming lineups are going to be. Whenever Nintendo announces a new system, you instantly know what games are going to come out for it (Zelda, Mario, Metroid for sure).Its a given that Nintendo will churn these games out ad infinitem at least once or twice for every generation of its consoles. But where are the new stuff? What if we aren't a non-gamer? I want to actually be surprised when Nintendo announces its gaming lineup and see something major going on that isn't Mario, Zelda, or Metroid (or a non-game) for a change. Players get burned out on these things after awhile.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Kairon on March 03, 2009, 02:30:22 AM
Actually Chozo Ghost, many of the games you mentioned are sequels. The truth is that Nintendo has been EXTREMELY light on new IP since the SNES era. What new Nintendo IP got its start on the N64? ... ummm... hmm...Oh yeah! Animal Crossing! And on the GameCube, wasn't Pikmin the sole new "character universe" that Nintendo created?
I think it's disingenuous to somehow act like this is a new thing, as if somehow Nintendo has done a 180. I also think it's disingenuous to ignore huge swaths of Nintendo contributions to gaming, I assure you that games like Track and Field, Mario Paint, and Mario Party were integral parts of many Nintendo fan's personal histories.
And actually, the reason so many of these "alternative" Nintendo games are beloved is exactly because of what Ian said: "games with so much more ambition in the design and of such a larger scope." It's just sad that people speak of ambition and scope and then they rule out entire frontiers of gaming. You don't think Wii Fit, turning movement into gaming, was extraordinarily gutsy and ambitious? You don't think that Wii Music, what with how it magically fills in notes to songs for whatever you press, didn't tackle the challenge of somehow generating music programmatically? If you're looking for games that will surprise you and force you to expand the very limits of gaming, I think that Nintendo has been exactly the place to be, from Kid Icarus to Mario Paint to Wii Fit. That is, of course, unless you're only looking for surprises in specifically this genre or specifically this playstyle. Then again, that's not really in the complete spirit of "surprise" is it?
Of course, that doesn't mean you have to enjoy all these games. Myself? I've NEVER enjoyed Metroid as much as others have. I won't touch Fire Emblem with a ten foot pole thanks to permadeath. And Wii Play? Link's Crossbow Training? Complete wastes of my time. I don't care that there are people out there getting perfect scores in those games, I'm not keen on 'em.
But that these games exist doesn't mean that Nintendo is suddenly changing their feathers. *shrug* It just means that I happen to have my own tastes. That's not Nintendo's fault is it? I mean, they're only one company, and a company that loves to take 2-4 years to make these so-called epic wonder games. I mean, we're Nintendo fans aren't we? We may have been spoiled by the late-2006-all-of-2007-first-half-2008 release binge Nintendo was on, but put that anomaly aside and I thought we were among the most condition-to-wait gamers in the industry, along with Blizzard fans...
And besides, even Miyamoto has said that his approach to gaming is not the only way. Opinions of Nintendo topple, I think, only when gamers put them on unreasonably high pedestals.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 03, 2009, 03:05:17 AM
Kairon deserves a cookie for a brilliant post. Who has one to give him?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: BeautifulShy on March 03, 2009, 03:20:04 AM
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Kairon deserves a cookie for a brilliant post. Who has one to give him?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Khushrenada on March 03, 2009, 03:26:49 AM
With regards to the N64, Rare stepped up to the plate on that one and delivered a lot of new IP's so the fact tha Nintendo didn't provide many wasn't an issue. Banjo-Kazooie, Jet Force Gemini, Perfect Dark, Conker. The problem is that those IP's didn't get a chance to develop since Rare left soon into the Gamecube era and took their IP's with them where only now are we seeing sequels come out for them. Now, obviously, the complaint is the fact that more than sequels are needed. Still, if those IP's were still around, it might help fight the "stale" accusations since they are a bit newer compared to other established Nintendo franchises.
The other thing that helped during the 64 era was the 3-D switch. In a way, every franchise felt new since they did have to adjust the gameplay to a 3-D world. Plus, Mario Party was new along with Mario Sports ala Golf and Tennis. Or are they the same franchise as Mario Kart?
Now let's discuss a different factor. Gameplay. For the most part, all of Nintendo's franchises offer a different kind of gameplay experience. Mario has different gameplay compared to Kirby which has different gameplay compared to Donkey Kong which has different gameplay compared to Wario. They are all platformers but they all do something different. They all have different gameplay mechanics. And in DK's case, he's been doing a lot of experimenting on gameplay lately. Or am I wrong here? Are they all the same thing? Just platformers but really well done.
I consider Battalion Wars a new IP but it was based off the Advance Wars games. Does that mean it is a new IP or not?
Another issue is third parties. On the NES and the SNES, there were a lot of third party exclusives that made it seem like Nintendo had more IP's. Square with Final Fantasy, Secret of Mana. Megaman was exclusively Nintendo at the time also, I think. Castlevania. Others like that. Growing up, if you didn't know much about the business, you just thought it was all Nintendo. The problem is, most of those third party titles have stopped being exclusive and now appear on all sorts of consoles. Sometimes, they don't appear on a Nintendo console at all. In this way, it again adds to the perception that IP's are lacking on the console. Even new IP's that appear on multiple consoles seem to be disregarded and not treated with much regard. Why is that people want to see Nintendo make new IP's but don't care about third parties?
I think they want the exclusitivity. Yes, we know that Nintendo will make a highly polished and excellant game. But third parties can do that too and have done that. But the issue always comes back to Nintendo. It has to be them to do this. I think it goes back to exclusitivity. When third parties left Nintendo, the routine has usually been to scorn them for this decision. Even I still do this on occasion. I was dead set against buying Rock Band after giving the 360 a brief period of exclusive release. But in the end, I bought it over GH:WT because I did like it more. So, I think the possibility should be left open to the fact that third parties could also deliver such a game even if it isn't exclusive.
Now, there was more I was going to say but there's a few things I would want clarified before going further. First, if I'm right about anything I've said so far. Second, must a new IP be epic? Trauma Center, for instance, is a new IP with an interesting gameplay idea. It may not be a very long game or epic in it's production. Is that still considered to mini-gamey? Professor Layton could be a new franchise. Since it is just solving puzzles, should it be dismissed? Chibi-Robo might not be the most polished game around but I loved it. The gameplay might not be revolutionary but at least it did something different with its setting and characters. Is that what is needed? Just something different even if it might be gameplay used in other games? Why must a new IP be a longer game that requires the player to master different skills and abilities in the game to face ever increasing challenges as you progress?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 03, 2009, 03:34:14 AM
Sadly Khush's post was too late and we ran out of cookies.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Ymeegod on March 03, 2009, 01:46:53 PM
Wait a minute? Aren't you being a bit hard on Nintendo? The entire industry isn't going with original IP's because the casual fanbase isn't biting. Is Microsoft or Sony dissing out new IPs (minus LBP).
And Mario Sunshine really feels fresh IMO (I played all of previous game as well) so yeah it might be sequel in name sake but that's like saying FF is the same ole crap when FFXII was totally different in gameplay compared to the rest.
My gripe with Big N is they are penny-pichers to say the least. They could have made the WII a bit more powerful (at least as powerful as the Xbox 360) and took the lose on hardware and make it up on software. Also they could invest into other developers, the lack of RPG's (genre that I LoooVee) is still rather sad.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Ian Sane on March 03, 2009, 02:45:36 PM
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must a new IP be epic?
No. But the absense of ANY isn't good either. So when Nintendo does announce something new and it's not an epic game, I get upset. But it isn't because Nintendo is "wasting" an new IP on a non-game or anything like that. It's because they aren't releasing any new IPs that can match up to their best franchises at all. It's never been about what the make but rather what they aren't. So Nintendo releases Wii Music and I have no interest in it at all. Well I'm not going to like everything Nintendo makes so out of context I shouldn't have any beef with it. But last Christmas the first party games were a glorified remake and a non-game. So where's a game for me, Nintendo? Where's a game for a core gamer who already bought Animal Crossing on the Cube? See, THAT is the issue. Always has been. New IPs are being used for non-games but NOT epic ones. We're getting excluded. There's the problem.
And I agree fully with Khush's opinion about Rare. In my mind Rare totally counted as Nintendo. They were a Nintendo second party and routinely made games of comparable quality to Nintendo's first party efforts. The fact that Retro is a first party dev instead of a second party is largely a technicality. To me it's a similar idea: a non-Japanese developer working exclusively with Nintendo that can make games as good as Nintendo.
Can everyone agree that innovation and originality has long been a part of Nintendo's identity? So when they give core gamers the same franchises over and over again without anything really new to balance it out doesn't that somewhat go against part of what makes Nintendo Nintendo? Or extremely incremental updates to Animal Crossing or the Mario Sports games or Mario Party? Were sequels that are practically the same game something that was often identified with Nintendo?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Khushrenada on March 03, 2009, 02:46:19 PM
Wait a minute? Aren't you being a bit hard on Nintendo? The entire industry isn't going with original IP's because the casual fanbase isn't biting. Is Microsoft or Sony dissing out new IPs (minus LBP).
Who's being hard? Me or someone else in this thread?
As for new IP's, Viewtiful Joe, Sly Cooper, Jak and Daxter, Rachet and Clank. There's a bunch of the top of my head. Just because Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft aren't making them, doesn't mean there are no new IP's out there. However, are they epic? Which is the point of this thread. The quickest thing I can think of off the top of my head are God of War and Shadow of the Colossus. Those are two more new IP's which are supposed to be epic or give you an epic experience.
Agree that Sunshine is feels fresh. I liked it alot and would love to see a Sunshine sequel. Played that game over and over a lot. Yet, it still follows a lot of the same conventions set up by Super Mario 64. Now, I don't know what Final Fantasy's gameplay is like. But does the story involve someone rising up against an evil ruler to stop him from controlling some great power? Does it involve chocobos and airships? That's why it is considered the same old crap as you put it. The gameplay may be different but there are many elements that still make it part of the Final Fantasy line and not say, a Chrono Trigger game or Mana game or a new IP.
Which brings me back to my earlier point. "Is that what is needed? Just something different even if it might be gameplay used in other games?" Is that what this new IP wishing is about? Just making up a new world and characters?
As for penny-pinching, there are pros and cons to it. Right now, it's worked to Nintendo's benefit and really, that doesn't have much to do with the need for fresh experiences.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 03, 2009, 04:50:29 PM
Ian brings up an excellent point about Mario Party and Animal Crossing. I accept that Mario Galaxy is significantly different enough from Mario Sunshine and Mario 64 to justify its existance, but can the same be said about Animal Crossing on the Wii? I owned the Animal Crossing for the GC and then when the Animal Crossing for DS came out I got that too, and was extremely disappointed by how little had actually changed from the original. This is why I didn't get the Wii Animal Crossing game and never will. Actually, in some respects Animal Crossing for the Wii is actually a DOWNGRADE from the GC, because you lose the GBA connectivity and features that introduced.
I am playing Galaxy right now, and I agree it is an excellent game and I think its existence is very much justified, but the fact is it is still a Mario game. It didn't have to be. Considering its background, it could have been a Captain Olimar game. That's the issue here. The Mario franchise is overmilked, and I think Nintendo should dust off some of its other franchises (or heaven forbid, create some new ones) and give other characters and universes a bit of attention. I love the Mario universe and I always will, but is it wrong of me to want to see something new or something else get put in the spotlight for awhile?
I am glad Nintendo has dusted off its Punch-out franchise and is bringing that back, and I hope they'll do the same with Icarus and why not Ice-climber and Nester too? These are all Core original franchises which have not appeared on any Nintendo system since the NES days. They aren't "new" but they have been absent for so long that any new game featuring them would be fresh now.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on March 03, 2009, 05:40:15 PM
Nintendo has had an interesting year in that I can think of two Nintendo pushed games that have yet to release in the States: Fatal Frame 4 and Day of Disaster. DoD obviously flopped and who knows what happened with Fatal Frame. Having those two games would have bolstered Nintendo's Winter lineup greatly.
Captain Rainbow was a new IP that never came West as well. Though I wouldn't consider it a high caliber game.
It seems that Nintendo isn't bringing over all of its games anymore. Soma Bringer, ASH, DoD (in NA), Fatal Frame and Captain Rainbow all have not come over yet. So I'm wondering if part of the problem is more NoA's fault in not localizing as opposed to NCL.
I had hoped we were moving beyond this issue once games like Fire Emblem were finally getting localized but I guess the issue is still alive and well.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Kairon on March 04, 2009, 01:06:31 AM
With regards to the N64, Rare stepped up to the plate on that one and delivered a lot of new IP's so the fact tha Nintendo didn't provide many wasn't an issue. Banjo-Kazooie, Jet Force Gemini, Perfect Dark, Conker.
I agree completely on this. I think that the real big change this generation that a lot of observers are ignoring (especially in their rush to join the blame Nintendo bandwagon) is that this generation started with Nintendo really, really thin on second parties. Rare on the N64, with GE, PD, B&K, B&K2, CBFD, BlastCorps, and DKR64 averaged more than a game a year during that generation. Obviously, history has shown that Nintendo made the right choice in selling their stake in the company, but if the Rare of the 32-64 bit age was making Wii games, the difference would be night and day.
And the GC also showed what a mix of less grand efforts by closely affiliated parties could do. Rogue Squadron II at launch made a huge impact, and diehard Nintendo gamers also had Eternal Darkness to look forward to, and the growing of Retro with the Prime series.
With the Wii, Nintendo's second party resources seem to have started out dwindled by the GC era. But they're slowly building back up with collaborations with companies like Next Level Games and Monster Games. I only hope that Retro doesn't go the way of Rareware anytime soon.
My gripe with Big N is they are penny-pichers to say the least. They could have made the WII a bit more powerful (at least as powerful as the Xbox 360) and took the lose on hardware and make it up on software. Also they could invest into other developers, the lack of RPG's (genre that I LoooVee) is still rather sad.
I don't think anyone can really argue Nintendo's conservative fiscal nature. I personally think that it's Nintendo's conservative financial endeavors that keeps them so agile and ready to risk at a moment's notice developing something totally unexpected, but it also means they don't expand or attack anywhere near as quick as more voracious and aggressive competitors.
You know... I gotta wonder, what in the world is Monolith working on? T_T
Which brings me back to my earlier point. "Is that what is needed? Just something different even if it might be gameplay used in other games?" Is that what this new IP wishing is about? Just making up a new world and characters?
I think in a way it might be. Ironically, I suspect that gamers who specialize in one or several fields at the exclusion of others are developing higher thresholds for excitement, essentially becoming desensitized to the games. When we ask for new IPs, even if all that means is a Space Marine... WITH HAIR... that's just us asking for something, anything to dress up games we used to like, but that we can no longer enjoy.
I mean, it's just a crackpot theory I've thought up now, but maybe longtime gamers risk reaching a point where they can no longer suspend disbelief and have fun in a game, they need to be given higher and higher levels of fantasy in order to overcome what have become cynical and dulled senses. I mean, this is a large reason why I don't play Pokemon anymore. And my dulled gaming senses, I'm willing to bet, are probably what made me so unimpressed with Majora's Mask. I immediately "saw through" that game, thinking the masks a mere key/fetch mechanic, and thoroughly unfazed by the time-travel mechanics.
Can everyone agree that innovation and originality has long been a part of Nintendo's identity? ... Were sequels that are practically the same game something that was often identified with Nintendo?
I agree completely. That's why I'm absolutely flabbergasted that so many people loved the cosmetic makeover that Majora's Mask was, and ignore the utter brilliance of Phantom Hourglass' design, layout, and gameplay. I simply, cannot, understand it.
Of course, I think Nintendo HAS been in a holding pattern for several franchises for various reasons... and ironically, all these franchises got their start in the 32-bit/64-bit era....
Ian brings up an excellent point about Mario Party and Animal Crossing.
Yeah, Mario Party and Animal Crossing, I can't argue your stance on these games. I don't think Nintendo half-assed these efforts in any way shape or form, but they're clearly approaching these series with a different mindset. My eyes glaze over whenever I see Mario Party 8, and I'll admit that though I love AC, it definitely isn't a reinvention at all. But can I ask you what you think about another game I think qualifies for this category? Pokemon?
I think Nintendo is reintroducing the same base concepts in these three franchises because they intend to recapture markets that are continually flushed with new consumers. You know, there's always new kids, and if you don't give them Pokemon, someone will give them Digimon or Monster Rancher instead and you'll lose an entire generation. And Animal Crossing, in my opinion, is actually still at the starting block, I feel that the game hasn't actually established itself in the market at all, that it's consumer base is still being discovered, hence why it's still the same game. And well.. okay, so Mario Party was shameless milking. But I do know people who still love the latest game even though I couldn't care less.
Maybe it's a good sign then that Nintendo hasn't announced Mario Party 9?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Ian Sane on March 04, 2009, 01:22:51 PM
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I agree completely. That's why I'm absolutely flabbergasted that so many people loved the cosmetic makeover that Majora's Mask was, and ignore the utter brilliance of Phantom Hourglass' design, layout, and gameplay. I simply, cannot, understand it.
How the hell can you call Majora's Mask with it's innovative three day time system a cosmetic makeover? If anything MM is a perfect example of innovating within an established franchise and genre. I think Phantom Hourglass fits this requirement too, it just controls like complete ****. They were right to experiment but it doesn't always work all the time.
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But can I ask you what you think about another game I think qualifies for this category? Pokemon?
Pokemon Gold/Silver was a brilliant sequel. It took the core gameplay of the original game and expanded on it in every way so that it was an essential purchase. But Nintendo had otherwise been very greedy with the franchise and has specifically taken advantage of kids that don't know better. The first GBA Pokemon RPG was a lazy rehash that was actually a step back from Gold/Silver and then they followed it up with remakes of the first game. They always release a third edition to try to get people to buy virtually the same game over again. Aside from the main series Pokemon games are largely crap with seemingly no real intention to make a good product. Pokemon is everything wrong with Nintendo. Thinking about it now, Nintendo's blue ocean strategy seems to borrow a lot of the things I don't like about their Pokemon strategy. Pokemon taught Nintendo that you can cut corners and screw the consumer if you have an "it" product.
But Pokemon Red/Blue and Gold/Silver are brilliant games. Two of Nintendo's best ever in fact.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Mop it up on March 04, 2009, 07:05:36 PM
Maybe it's a good sign then that Nintendo hasn't announced Mario Party 9?
No no no no no NO! It would be a good sign if Nintendo announced a Mario Party 9 that was set to revitalize the series; on Wii it shouldn't be difficult, it has plenty of features which could be utilized to make the best Mario Party in existence. Online play would definitely be a good addition as well. I know people say that Mario Party is the type of game best played with people in the same room, but what about those times when you have three people and don't want to sub in a stupid AI player? You could go online to search for someone to fill that slot! If the game used Wii Speak it would work really well!
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 04, 2009, 07:09:25 PM
Mario Party '09 (nine, LOL) is destined for onrine Lotion Puss multiplayer functionality.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Mop it up on March 04, 2009, 07:12:14 PM
So long as LotionPuss is optional, I'm fine with that.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Ymeegod on March 05, 2009, 04:52:42 PM
Actually Mario Party is developed by Hudson Soft (Bomberman series), nintendo only publihsers them.
Pokemon is develope by Gamefreak. Think both of those companies are actually 3rd party. Kinda like Bungie was to Microsoft.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Mop it up on March 05, 2009, 08:48:04 PM
I know. And that means that a Mario Party 9 wouldn't "use up Nintendo's valuable development resources" as I've heard some people complain when it comes to spin-offs like this. What has Hudson been up to anyway? The last project I know of is Bomberman Blast, which was released in September. They're a small company, wouldn't they want to create a sure-fire hit like Mario Party 9?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 05, 2009, 09:10:05 PM
I wouldn't have counted them because they're WiiWare, but since you said Bomberman Blast I'll point out that Hudson developed Snowboard Riot and Onslaught. They're also developing Marble Saga: Kororinpa, which if anything like the original will be fantastic and is coming out in 2 weeks. Their web site doesn't reveal any other future projects, which may indicate that they're working with Nintendo on something because of Nintendo's recent habit of not saying anything about games until they're only a couple months away.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Mop it up on March 05, 2009, 10:14:57 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot about Onslaught. I might check out that marble game too because I love Marble Madness on the NES.
Just curious, but why wouldn't you have counted WiiWare? The games may not be as large or labour-intensive as retail games but they still take effort from the developers.
Mario Party 9 shall be Hudson's next project, I'll bet my mop on it. (The dirty one I keep in the closet of shame.)
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 06, 2009, 12:11:02 AM
They take effort but they wouldn't be stopping them from making a full retail game (just look at High Voltage) and we were discussing what they might be making.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on March 06, 2009, 12:16:37 AM
They take effort but they wouldn't be stopping them from making a full retail game (just look at High Voltage) and we were discussing what they might be making.
But each HVS game has been viewed as average or mediocre in general. Their WW projects mediocrity could be due to their divided attention between different games. I would believe that WW does take resources and this can impact all games involved.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 06, 2009, 12:22:53 AM
They take effort but they wouldn't be stopping them from making a full retail game (just look at High Voltage) and we were discussing what they might be making.
But each HVS game has been viewed as average or mediocre in general. Their WW projects mediocrity could be due to their divided attention between different games. I would believe that WW does take resources and this can impact all games involved.
I guess we'll see how Kororinpa is, then, because Bomberman Blast and Onslaught were great. Also, Gyrostarr was awesome.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Kairon on March 07, 2009, 03:30:59 PM
How the hell can you call Majora's Mask with it's innovative three day time system a cosmetic makeover? If anything MM is a perfect example of innovating within an established franchise and genre. I think Phantom Hourglass fits this requirement too, it just controls like complete ****. They were right to experiment but it doesn't always work all the time.
I'm totally in the minority in disagreeing with you. Like I said before, All Majora's Mask did was make me play that ocarina song every once in awhile and collect masks. Aside from that, I felt like I was playing an Ocarina retread. The gameplay was, for all intents and purposed, identical.
Pokemon Gold/Silver was a brilliant sequel. It took the core gameplay of the original game and expanded on it in every way so that it was an essential purchase. But Nintendo had otherwise been very greedy with the franchise and has specifically taken advantage of kids that don't know better. The first GBA Pokemon RPG was a lazy rehash that was actually a step back from Gold/Silver and then they followed it up with remakes of the first game.
T_T
I'm soo in the minority... I couldn't play Gold/Silver, but loved Ruby/Sapphire... I'm so in the minority...
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Kairon on March 07, 2009, 03:34:41 PM
I might check out that marble game too because I love Marble Madness on the NES.
It's not Marble Madness exactly, but like a purer, better version of Monkey ball if you've ever played that. Either way, I loved the original, am a Marble Madness fan, and hope the sequel is as awesome as I think it will be.
As for Hudson in general, I think they're having a resurgence. They've got "Help Wanted" coming out in 2009, which is a mini-game collection based on a range of wacky jobs one might get. And of course, they seem to be really gung-ho on WiiWare and I hope that's paying off for them: Onslaught is a perfect example!
Actually, I'm grateful that mario Party 9 doesn't exist because it frees up Hudson to be more independent!
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Mop it up on March 07, 2009, 05:19:53 PM
It's not Marble Madness exactly, but like a purer, better version of Monkey ball if you've ever played that.
I haven't, but a couple of the Super Monkey Ball games are on my want list (which has hundreds of games on it so I suppose that doesn't mean much...).
That's my problem with WiiWare, Hudson are releasing stand-alone games onto the service which would otherwise be minigames in Mario Party 9. It may be shallow, but having Mario characters automatically makes any game more enjoyable. Even Zelda would be better if it starred Mario.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on March 07, 2009, 06:23:47 PM
It's not Marble Madness exactly, but like a purer, better version of Monkey ball if you've ever played that.
I haven't, but a couple of the Super Monkey Ball games are on my want list (which has hundreds of games on it so I suppose that doesn't mean much...).
That's my problem with WiiWare, Hudson are releasing stand-alone games onto the service which would otherwise be minigames in Mario Party 9. It may be shallow, but having Mario characters automatically makes any game more enjoyable. Even Zelda would be better if it starred Mario.
Are you sure that you aren't just hoping that the Mario references lead to more Birdo appearances? ;)
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Mop it up on March 07, 2009, 11:06:53 PM
Are you sure that you aren't just hoping that the Mario references lead to more Birdo appearances? ;)
Of course I am, but that doesn't mean I don't think the whole lot of Mario characters are great. Just because I currently have the adorable pink dinosaur as my author icon doesn't mean I'm not fond of the portly plumber himself. In fact, I'm not even so sure Birdo is my favourite anyway; that would probably be Toad. The thing is, Toad is a pretty lovable guy, so he doesn't need my fandom. Birdo however, is vastly unappreciated, usually gets the shaft from Nintendo, and is often hated on by Mario fans. He needs my support!
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on March 08, 2009, 06:05:24 AM
Are you sure that you aren't just hoping that the Mario references lead to more Birdo appearances? ;)
Of course I am, but that doesn't mean I don't think the whole lot of Mario characters are great. Just because I currently have the adorable pink dinosaur as my author icon doesn't mean I'm not fond of the portly plumber himself. In fact, I'm not even so sure Birdo is my favourite anyway; that would probably be Toad. The thing is, Toad is a pretty lovable guy, so he doesn't need my fandom. Birdo however, is vastly unappreciated, usually gets the shaft from Nintendo, and is often hated on by Mario fans. He needs my support!
Does it make you mad when Birdo is referred to as a pink Yoshi?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: KDR_11k on March 08, 2009, 07:14:47 AM
I wouldn't have counted them because they're WiiWare, but since you said Bomberman Blast I'll point out that Hudson developed Snowboard Riot and Onslaught. They're also developing Marble Saga: Kororinpa, which if anything like the original will be fantastic and is coming out in 2 weeks. Their web site doesn't reveal any other future projects, which may indicate that they're working with Nintendo on something because of Nintendo's recent habit of not saying anything about games until they're only a couple months away.
They did announce an Adventure Island remake for WiiWare.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Mop it up on March 08, 2009, 05:53:14 PM
Does it make you mad when Birdo is referred to as a pink Yoshi?
Yeah somewhat, but the connection makes sense. They're both dinosaurs, they have a similar body structure and also somewhat similar abilities depending on the game. The developers are to blame for this though, as often times Birdo shares the same animations as Yoshi (see: Mario Kart Wii) so his personality isn't so distinct. What people seem to overlook is that Birdo predates Yoshi; if anything Yoshi is just a green Birdo.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on March 08, 2009, 06:45:29 PM
It would be interesting to see some of the concept art for both Yoshi and Birdo and see if they came from the same initial ideas.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 08, 2009, 11:45:52 PM
1) Birdo is Pink 2) Birdo lays eggs 3) Birdo has a bow on its head
Come to think of it, shouldn't Yoshi also be a she? Because Yoshi lays eggs...
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Mop it up on March 09, 2009, 12:26:05 AM
1. Kirby is pink and that's a dude. 2. Birdo doesn't lay eggs, he spits eggs. From his face-hole. Besides, the male of some species can lay eggs, like the seahorse. 3. So wearing a bow automatically makes one a female?
Here is Birdo's listing in the Super Mario Brothers 2 manual:
"He thinks he is a girl and he spits eggs from his mouth. He'd rather be called Birdetta."
Based on that (somewhat poorly worded) listing, Birdo is male under the delusion that he's female. In later releases, Nintendo generally refers to Birdo as a female to avoid potential controversy, although in Japan, Birdo (known as Catherine there) has always been male. Recently Nintendo of America have been more ambiguous though, most notably with Birdo's trophy description in SSBBrawl dubbing him a "creature of indeterminate gender" and referring to him using the pronoun "it".
In the case of Yoshi, I personally consider him to be a hermaphrodite.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: KDR_11k on March 09, 2009, 07:23:04 AM
I think the eggs you see Yoshis lay aren't really eggs, they're funny looking feces. I don't think we ever see a yoshi lay an egg that later hatches into a yoshi, we only see yoshis lay eggs (usually after eating something) and we see eggs that hatch but there's nothing that really says these have to be identical. I'd guess it's a defensive mechanism, by making their excrement look like eggs predators are less likely to try eating the real eggs after having eaten yoshi poo the last few times.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: EasyCure on March 09, 2009, 02:59:26 PM
I think the eggs you see Yoshis lay aren't really eggs, they're funny looking feces. I don't think we ever see a yoshi lay an egg that later hatches into a yoshi, we only see yoshis lay eggs (usually after eating something) and we see eggs that hatch but there's nothing that really says these have to be identical. I'd guess it's a defensive mechanism, by making their excrement look like eggs predators are less likely to try eating the real eggs after having eaten yoshi poo the last few times.
This man is a genious
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Stratos on March 09, 2009, 03:08:58 PM
I think the eggs you see Yoshis lay aren't really eggs, they're funny looking feces. I don't think we ever see a yoshi lay an egg that later hatches into a yoshi, we only see yoshis lay eggs (usually after eating something) and we see eggs that hatch but there's nothing that really says these have to be identical. I'd guess it's a defensive mechanism, by making their excrement look like eggs predators are less likely to try eating the real eggs after having eaten yoshi poo the last few times.
And that's why Yoshis survived the dinosaur extinction.
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: NovaQ on March 09, 2009, 08:44:15 PM
2. Birdo doesn't lay eggs, he spits eggs. From his face-hole. Besides, the male of some species can lay eggs, like the seahorse.
To continue this poor thread's derailment: the male seahorse doesn't lay eggs; the female does, but the male inseminates and carries the eggs within a pouch in its body.
And about the actual thread: I wonder if a better title might be "Are Nintendo's fans losing touch with Nintendo's roots?"
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: Mop it up on March 09, 2009, 09:52:19 PM
I think the eggs you see Yoshis lay aren't really eggs, they're funny looking feces. I don't think we ever see a Yoshi lay an egg that later hatches into a Yoshi, we only see Yoshis lay eggs
It's funny you say this because I have similar thoughts on Birdo's eggs. No game has ever shown anything hatch out of a Birdo egg, so they are probably more like some kind of excrement.
To continue this poor thread's derailment: the male seahorse doesn't lay eggs; the female does, but the male inseminates and carries the eggs within a pouch in its body.
I didn't say the male produced the eggs, I said it "laid" them, which that could still qualify as. The same process could hold true for the Birdo species as well. Or maybe Birdo found some other creature's eggs somewhere, devoured the lot of them, and is regurgitating them? Anything's possible.
I think Mario and Luigi are secretly female because neither of them have a bulge in their pants.
But... but they got those huge mustaches and they know how to fix plumbing!
On the other hand, I did notice Mario's voice has a higher pitch to it these days. My theory is they were born men but they were turned into Eunuchs somehow....maybe one of those chomping balls on a chain managed to chomp em. Perhaps through his keen sense of smell Birdo mistakes them for women because of their lack of testosterone?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: KDR_11k on March 10, 2009, 04:48:25 AM
Maybe Birdo is just mentally challenged?
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: NovaQ on March 10, 2009, 07:38:34 AM
"Are posters losing touch with this thread's topic?"
Title: Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
Post by: KDR_11k on March 10, 2009, 01:21:12 PM
It's been regurgitated so much I'm not sure I want to touch it anymore.
