Community Forums => NWR Forums Discord => Topic started by: decoyman on October 30, 2008, 12:42:21 AM
Title: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 30, 2008, 12:42:21 AM
The night was dark. It was cold. A lone figure walked along the path leading to the pumpkin patch. The figure was tall, wore a trench coat, and walked with authority while carrying a big trombone.
Suddenly, out of the darkness opposite the man in the trench coat, stepped a short shadowy figure. And then another, even shorter.
"You," said shadowy figure number 1, his high-pitched voice dripping with contempt.
"Whwwahwaha?"
"ENOUGH with that IDIOTIC HONKING! Put down the instrument, and listen to me."
"Young man, isn't it past your bed time?" the tall figure stepped into the glow of a streetlight and was illuminated. It was one of the elementary school teachers! "Run along home now, before things get out of hand here. I'd hate to have to strike a child." From beneath his trench coat, the man pulled a shiny silver baseball bat and began slowly bouncing it against the palm of his other hand.
"Oh, but it is I who will be doing the striking tonight. I know who you are. And your time is up."
"Interesting. But it doesn't matter. I know who YOU are as well!" the man said, and then whipped off his mask and the trench coat with a swoosh. There, bat in hand, stood Peppermint Patty, the townie vigilante, aka Thatguy! "Hello, Linus. I know what you've been up to. And now I'm gonna clobber you!"
"Not so fast! Sally!" Linus commanded, and without missing a beat, Sally skipped up and stood between them.
"Hi Peppermint Patty," she said, looking just adorable. "Ooh, that's a nice bat! Can I have it?" Peppermint Patty was confused... somehow, she just couldn't resist. She smiled, and handed over the bat.
"You're a cute kid," she said, and patted Sally on the back.
"Now!" shouted Linus, and a net fell from above and captured Peppermint Patty. Linus walked up to his struggling captive and smiled. "Well done, Sally. You've done a great job." Sally beamed. "As for you... well, I can't have you hanging around anymore, so I think maybe it's time you took that extended vacation in "Chuck's Guest Cottage.""
"Where that funny-looking kid with the big nose stays?" she asked, hesitantly.
"You mean Snoopy? The Beagle?!"
"Wait, he's... he's a... dog?! NOOOOOOOoooooooo!!!!" But no sooner had she begun screaming than Peppermint Patty, aka Thatguy, was carried off and sent tumbling down into the basement of Snoopy's dog house. The last thing she heard as the light from the doorway above her disappeared was the click-clack of a lock being secured from the outside.
Then there was only silence. And darkness.
---------------------------------------------
Still at the baseball field, Charlie Brown was speechless. Peppermint Patty was nowhere to be found, and everyone was getting restless with all the disappearances lately.
It was then that he noticed something very peculiar. Very peculiar indeed!
There, standing not 10 feet away, was... him. No, it wasn't him, as he was standing over here. It was... no, it couldn't be... Another Charlie Brown?
He gathered the crowd up, then walked over to this other Charlie Brown. "Excuse me," he said to his doppleganger, "what's your name?"
"I'm Charlie Brown! Good grief!" said Charlie Brown #2.
Something was wrong, though, and not just Charlie Brown #1 noticed. CB#2's voice was all muffled, and his facial expression never changed. Almost like plastic...
"He's wearing a MASK, Charlie Brown! He's wearing a MASK!" someone from the crowd shouted.
"Why, he is! Well, let's vote for this fellow, then, and see who he REALLY is," CB#1 said. Everyone agreed, and Maxi won the vote.
"Alright, then, let's see who you are!" Charlie Brown said, and pulled off the mask. It was then that something very strange happened. The figure went totally limp and shapeless. Suddenly, it was just a pile of clothes! The crowd murmured in confusion. Charlie Brown, unaffected, reached down into the pile of clothes, and pulled something out. It was blue, and very soft. He held it aloft in bewilderment.
"We are witnessing something very strange here today, ladies and gentlemen. If I'm not mistaken... that is... er... Maxi was actually Linus' Blanket! This must mean Linus is behind all this!"
The children gasped, but there could be no other explanation. Finally, they'd found one of the guilty party! They all gleefully made their way again to the kite-eating tree, and tossed the blanket up to Marcie, who was still hanging out up there. She caught it, and smiled. "Good one, sir."
-----------------------------
DAY 3 RESULTS: Maxi, Linus' Blanket, the mafia investigator, has been voted out. Thatguy, Peppermint Patty, the townie vigilante, has been hit by the Mafia.
Day 4 Voting Begins Now!
I'll check to see if anyone needs to vote today to avoid dying by inactivity...
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 30, 2008, 12:50:14 AM
Yes I was right, maxi was mafia! Suck it, thatguy! (if I'd changed my vote, he would have lived to the end with your vouch of him being good and doom us all)
Vote GP
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 30, 2008, 01:08:02 AM
Finally stevey takes charge! (But he's too late)
Let's kill me now! un-Vote Khushrenada.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 30, 2008, 01:46:50 AM
Vote Pale
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 30, 2008, 02:04:06 AM
Well, congrats people. You killed Maxi and got a mafia member. I was hoping for all my mafia to live to the end but I guess that won't happen now.
Well, Vote Pale. Let's wrap this game up.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: nickmitch on October 30, 2008, 02:31:09 AM
Well, congrats people. You killed Maxi and got a mafia member. I was hoping for all my mafia to live to the end but I guess that won't happen now.
Well, Vote Pale. Let's wrap this game up.
Sorry for yesterday, Khush. I looked at the game while in the library because I kept getting messages from someone on AIM. I didn't have time to look in to the actual happenings, I just knew I was in trouble and was told you were mafia. I'll look over things tomorrow after my test.
For the record, I'm more apologizing for blindly voting for you without justification than simply voting for you. I think you deserve better.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on October 30, 2008, 07:26:50 AM
Vote Pale
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Pale on October 30, 2008, 08:43:52 AM
/sigh... plain old Townie here. I already told Khush that.
So I guess I'm wil Stevey.
Unvoting...
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 30, 2008, 10:13:27 AM
Well, congrats people. You killed Maxi and got a mafia member. I was hoping for all my mafia to live to the end but I guess that won't happen now.
Well, Vote Pale. Let's wrap this game up.
Sorry for yesterday, Khush. I looked at the game while in the library because I kept getting messages from someone on AIM. I didn't have time to look in to the actual happenings, I just knew I was in trouble and was told you were mafia. I'll look over things tomorrow after my test.
For the record, I'm more apologizing for blindly voting for you without justification than simply voting for you. I think you deserve better.
Will this be the quote of the game?
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: nickmitch on October 30, 2008, 11:10:19 AM
Maybe, I'm just trying to figure out why I quoted your post up there. I think I meant to do it for the one from Day 3.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Dasmos on October 30, 2008, 11:52:13 AM
Does the mafia still get a hit if the Godfather is taken out by the vote?
If they do, wrap this **** up early. There's no way we can win.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on October 30, 2008, 12:13:56 PM
Quote from: Decoyman
The way I see the mafia hit is, the godfather only calls the shots, he doesn't have to carry out the hit himself. SO, whether he's alive or dead to see it carried out, it still happens. That's just the way I interpret the rule. Hope that makes sense to everyone.
I think that answers your question. It's from yesterday's thread.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Dasmos on October 30, 2008, 12:20:25 PM
Yeah. Decoyman answered my question in a PM.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 30, 2008, 12:23:40 PM
The way I see the mafia hit is, the godfather only calls the shots, he doesn't have to carry out the hit himself. SO, whether he's alive or dead to see it carried out, it still happens. That's just the way I interpret the rule. Hope that makes sense to everyone.
I think that answers your question. It's from yesterday's thread.
Yup. That's how I see the rule. Even so, the mafia doesn't have checkmate quite yet. If the townies make a smart play today, they're still in it.
On the other hand, if they screw this one up, yeah, I believe the mafia will have the win as of tomorrow.
So, I'm not gonna call it yet... we'll see how today goes. Maybe for Halloween we'll have a winner. If NOT, though, Day 5 will be one long day starting tomorrow and ending on Sunday night.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on October 30, 2008, 02:38:25 PM
VOTE KHUSH
Guys, Khush is the godfather. We need to vote him out today.
OH ****--I just had a scary thought. Khush claims to be the godfather, but what if he's the bomber? We could be walking into a trap. If he's Sally (the bomber) and we vote him out that means we lose a bunch of townies and Schroeder joins the mafia.
Khush, you are an evil genius.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 30, 2008, 04:35:50 PM
Khush wants us to think he the bomber, he also wants I to think that we know that he trying to making us think that to change our minds into thinking he is the godfather and to vote him, that still not it because that leads us to knowing that what he would do, thus forces us to believe that he really is the bomber, but that was his whole plan all along.
He just a regular mafia member, kill the stooge!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 30, 2008, 04:40:47 PM
Khush wants us to think he the bomber, he also wants I to think that we know that he trying to making us think that to change our minds into thinking he is the godfather and to vote him, that still not it because that leads us to knowing that what he would do, thus forces us to believe that he really is the bomber, but that was his whole plan all along.
He just a regular mafia member, kill the stooge!
::brain fries::
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on October 30, 2008, 04:47:54 PM
Khush is evil. He's also smart. He told <name withheld> that he was the godfather knowing that <name withheld> would share the information with Thatguy. Thatguy told me before he died.
We know from past games that Khush is willing to sacrifice his life if it's for the greater good of his team. The more I think about it the more I'm positive that he's Sally.
GP is also mafia. I don't know her role, but it's safer to vote for her than to vote for Khush.
VOTE GOLDENPHOENIX
I beg you to vote with me.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 30, 2008, 04:52:11 PM
Psst. Lucy is the bomber's name. Sally is the power-negating person (cuz she's cute).
Tomayto, tomahto, yeah, I know :P
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Pale on October 30, 2008, 04:58:43 PM
I'll get behind Vudu...
But I wonder, how will we ever kill him if we have so few townies to sacrifice?
Vote GP
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on October 30, 2008, 05:33:53 PM
But I wonder, how will we ever kill him if we have so few townies to sacrifice?
If we somehow manage to make it so just the bomber is left then we'll have to sacrifice two townies in order to vote him out. If one of those is Pigpen we might get away with only losing one townie.
EDIT: OK, so Lucy is the bomber. So if we vote out Sally and Linus then Schroeder joins the mafia. We don't want this to happen, so we need to get rid of Lucy before we get rid of the second-to-last mafia member. This means we'll have to have four people vote for our suspected Lucy tomorrow (one being Schroeder and one Pigpen) and hope that we only lose one townie who is willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good (because Lucy only kills half the people who vote for her). Note: It has to be four, because if we don't Sally will negate one of the votes.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 30, 2008, 07:45:57 PM
Quote
The more I think about it the more I'm positive that he's Sally.
That's his trap, he was you to second guess yourself!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on October 30, 2008, 07:57:47 PM
This is turning into some Princess Bride ****.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: nickmitch on October 30, 2008, 08:09:00 PM
DrewMG voted for me THREE days in a row. I cannot tolerate this.
Vote GP
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on October 30, 2008, 08:11:28 PM
WTF. You either want to lose or you're mafia. Either way, change your vote to GP or face my wrath.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: nickmitch on October 30, 2008, 08:13:49 PM
WTF. You either want to lose or you're mafia. Either way, change your vote to GP or face my wrath.
Fine, jerk. But I'm voting for him tomorrow!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Dasmos on October 30, 2008, 09:06:44 PM
This has probably already been mentioned somewhere, but I'll just ask here to save sifting through the threads. If Sally choses a player to negate their powers and they have voted in the thread against the player who was voted out, the player voted out turns out to be Lucy, does the vote Sally negated count towards those possibly killed by the bomber?
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 30, 2008, 10:38:37 PM
How sure are we GP is mafia? Maxi accused her of being mafia in a PM to me the other day.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 30, 2008, 10:54:14 PM
This has probably already been mentioned somewhere, but I'll just ask here to save sifting through the threads. If Sally choses a player to negate their powers and they have voted in the thread against the player who was voted out, the player voted out turns out to be Lucy, does the vote Sally negated count towards those possibly killed by the bomber?
Nope. That person would be safe from the explosion.
Edit: Also, about 5 minutes left to vote tonight!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Toruresu on October 30, 2008, 10:55:02 PM
How sure are we GP is mafia? Maxi accused her of being mafia in a PM to me the other day.
very sure, ex. he voted on the nick bandwagon after it was derailed to try and prevent maxi's death.
Who is this he you are referencing? ::feels extremely insulted::
Anyway no one talks to me so I jumped on the Pale wagon. Just going with the flow.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Dasmos on October 30, 2008, 11:08:57 PM
Okay why is Toru being a jerk?
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on October 30, 2008, 11:12:54 PM
Because Khush lied to him and convinced him it was the only way to win the game. But he didn't take into account that A) townies kick ass and B) Sally has to die in order for Toruresu to become mafia.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 30, 2008, 11:19:09 PM
Well, well, well. Looks like a tie in the thread, but Pale actually won the vote 5-2. How 'bout that.
Get your night actions in by 10:30 Central, if you haven't already.
5-2 what the **** is this bull!!!!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Toruresu on October 30, 2008, 11:24:56 PM
...and when Sally dies, Im going mafia whether I want it or not.
We can argue all night, but it wouldve been tough as heck to win this as a townie for me. So I took a step.
Besides Vudu, once again, your leadership/planing prooved to be not good enough (no offense ment). I mean, I got what, 1 message from you, when you knew that the mafia was trying to recruit me? On the other hand, the mafia had several choices for me, all required me to turn mafia, wether by choice or by the rules. I decided not to let them make that choice for me, and make it myself.
I really hope my actions tonight do not hinder you and everyone's judgement on me the next mafia game. 8)
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 30, 2008, 11:29:05 PM
Hmm... are all night actions in?
Even if not, I think we can call it.
Day 4 Results: Pale was voted out. Dasmos was hit by the mafia.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on October 30, 2008, 11:29:13 PM
If the game is impossible to win for the townies my mission will be to vote out Toruresu tomorrow. I just want you to know that you're going to lose the game no matter what.
Not that it matters. We won't be able to vote out Sally so Toruresu will remain a townie. He has done nothing but screw over himself and his teammates.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 30, 2008, 11:34:53 PM
I didn't lie. Golden Phoenix is Lucy. Townies were going to make an epic mistake today anyways.
But let's play this out. Toruresu doesn't betray you. He works with you. Therefore today, Sally blocks Toru's power and the mafia unites for 3 votes against Pale. Townies must therefore have 4 people vote GP and that would have to be everyone but Toru since his vote is cancelled.
Did the townies even accomplish that tonight? No, some townies still withheld their vote. But let's say they do. Two townies die along with GP and I make a hit tonight. And if Charlie Brown doesn't die in the explosion. He's my hit since I don't want Sally to be able to betray the mafia and switch to being a townie.
Thus tomorrow we start the day with 4 townies and 2 mafia members. Now, you can't vote out Sally since that means Toru will become mafia. So, now you have a 50/50 shot of who's the godfather and who's Sally. Considering your luck today, who knows if you make the right choice. But let's say you do. So you vote me out and I take out Toruresu who's power we again blocked.
This brings you to the last day. 2 townies, 1 mafia. Sally can block one person's vote. Thus the best you can do is a tie. Thus, you have to hope that it comes down to a random 50/50 shot at chance for the townies to win. And it won't be the townies. It will just be the townie since Sally will use her hit to remove one of the last survivors.
What if that 50/50 chance goes to the mafia anyways? All that sacrifice, throwing away an easy victoy for that? Toruresu taking the deal was what any of you would have done if you had his role. Plus, he was blackmailed. I could make him join the mafia if he wanted to or not and I could hit him tonight if I had wanted. It's not in his best interest to work with you.
Now, which townie would like to be whacked tomorrow so they can at least say they were killed and therefore unable to prevent the mafia victory.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on October 30, 2008, 11:38:07 PM
But at least in my scenario Toruresu wouldn't have been a dirty traitor.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 30, 2008, 11:41:35 PM
I don't care if it's unwinable, I want to kill Khush! I told you he was evil on day 1, I told you he wasn't the bomber, did you listen Nooooooooo. That what you all get for not listening to me! You deserve to lose for not killing Khush when you had the chance!!!! ALWAYS KILL KHUSHRENADA! ALWAYS! AND NEVER FOLLOW VUDU! NEVER!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 30, 2008, 11:43:09 PM
No one complained when I was claiming to be a townie and become the great pumpkin. Same thing.
And if Sally took thatguy's deal and betrayed the mafia, would you call him a dirty traitor too?
It's all in the rules.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Toruresu on October 30, 2008, 11:43:36 PM
Ouch! Such harsh words! :-\
Besides, like Khush said, I wouldve joined the mafia anyways and the mafia wouldve still won. This way, the game ends quicker and we can start on the next one :D
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 30, 2008, 11:44:02 PM
Yep, I'm gonna call the game. There's no way for the townies to win if Toruresu's voting with the mafia.
But there was a way to win. A nearly sure-fire way. And for awhile today, the townies were on the right track. I'll post this strategy later on. Unfortunately, none of the townies used their powers to their full potential... not even close. And that's turned out to be the real difference with this game.
I'll put up a story here soon...
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on October 30, 2008, 11:44:47 PM
For what it's worth, being mafia when Khush is the leader is super-easy. I think he made up for being a jerk in the last mafia I played (Starfox).
Also, I'm about to become a mafia regular, because this game is too awesome.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 30, 2008, 11:48:31 PM
Since the game is near completion, let me tell you about my pumpkin plan. You see, since I thought the great pumpkin would be a townie randomly selected at the end of Day 3, I was killing off a lot of the townies. Oohhboy, DrewMG, Gylldas.
In fact, when Day 3 began there were 4 townies left. My hope was to vote out another townie in the day and approach two townies, Dasmos and Stevey, and let them know that if they worked with the mafia today, they would have a 50/50 shot at becoming mafia by being selected as the great pumpkin. Considering the situation the mafia was in at the beginning of Day 3, I think they would have taken it. Plus, I 'd whack the other townie at night to give them that 50/50 shot.
So, sorry stevey and Dasmos, I was trying to give you that chance to join the winning side also but the Pumpkin twist changed my plans. So, now I've just kept stevey alive so that he can berate the other townies. He's been the only person correct about me all game. Including today when he knew I wasn't the bomber but the Godfather. Too bad he can't do anything about it.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 30, 2008, 11:49:11 PM
Yep, I'm gonna call the game. There's no way for the townies to win if Toruresu's voting with the mafia.
But there was a way to win. A nearly sure-fire way. And for awhile today, the townies were on the right track. I'll post this strategy later on. Unfortunately, none of the townies used their powers to their full potential... not even close. And that's turned out to be the real difference with this game.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 30, 2008, 11:52:52 PM
Yikes!!! What caused stevey to have this animosity towards Khushrenada?
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on October 30, 2008, 11:53:31 PM
I've been on the other side of a Khush scheme. I know how infuriating it can be.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 30, 2008, 11:57:24 PM
It's a Halloween mafia, if is doesn't go on till at lease Halloween it is fail! (I can still change Toruresu mind, just give me a few hours! Nothing official yet according to the rules; Don't change the rules half way!!!! :ph: )
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Dasmos on October 30, 2008, 11:59:08 PM
Yikes!!! What caused stevey to have this animosity towards Khushrenada?
You haven't played against Khush have you?
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 31, 2008, 12:00:39 AM
Hmm... there are a few ways this could be turned around, but all of them would hinge on Toruresu re-backstabbing the mafia. I kinda doubt that'd happen, when he's about to win.
Look, Stevey, tomorrow's Halloween. I'll post the story in the morning, deal? :P
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 31, 2008, 12:01:31 AM
Wow, I know I am dead, but the game is over now....basically.
Look, it would have been easy to win for the townies.
Today if you had killed Khush you would have only 2 mafia members left and only lost 1 townie...you have a large advantage. Now all you need to do is kill the final 2 mafia. Guess what you know one of them. Well, you had clues to both of them. And some people flat out knew who they were.
If you killed the right mafia member first (Sally) then it would be easy to when because all you had to do was take out Lucy and you only lose half the townies...but kill the last mafia and avoid a hit.
This game was EASY TO WIN once you got rid of the mafia investigator and Great Pumpkin.
Toruresu you betrayed the townies worse than I did when I sided with thatguy, because there was a way to win, you just didn't look for it...you decided to take the easy way out. Sad, because you had the power. Heck you knew the mafia godfather early, you could have canceled mafia votes, and possibly actions.
**sigh**
This game ended poorly.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: that Baby guy on October 31, 2008, 12:03:03 AM
If the game's called, I'm talking.
In the first three days, the townies took out two mafia members and had another on their list. Regardless of abilities, where Charlie Brown's and PigPen's are useless to the mafia, we had RAB sit by, which wasn't his fault, it's not that he wasn't playing, it was that he wasn't able to be online.
Still, had abilities run perfectly, we'd have a similar scenario. At the start of day four, two mafia members would likely be dead, we normally wouldn't have had the the Great Pumpkin. If the townies worked together, their only real bet would be to try to create the situation in which Sally would defect to the townie side. However, that's an unlikely scenario, as the townies would need to quickly pinpoint the right roles, mafia and townie alike, and kill them. I don't see this "potential," as it would require much, much more guesswork.
This was the mafia's game to lose, to be honest. If you just think of the fact that in three days, two mafia members died, and yet the fourth day was hopeless from essentially the start, I would not say it was balanced, no matter how the townies used their roles.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 31, 2008, 12:04:06 AM
The mafia relieved themselves and all their roles, Toruresu can win either way but with the townie; He won't die on day 1 for the next 15 mafia games! :ph:
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Dasmos on October 31, 2008, 12:04:27 AM
If we killed Sally then Schroeder would go over to the mafia, Spak.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 31, 2008, 12:05:15 AM
If we killed Sally then Schroeder would go over to the mafia, Spak.
Yep and you would have The Godfather, a bomb and someone could alter votes. In that scenario I don't think it would be possible to win.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 31, 2008, 12:14:21 AM
Dasmos said what I was going to say. You can't save Lucy last or Toru would have to become mafia.
Second, with Sally, we could block Toru every time and therefore townies would be forced to vote high for the bomber.
Third, none of the mafia's actions would be blocked.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 31, 2008, 12:15:19 AM
I'm going to post some of my ideas here that show how powerful the townie roles could've been.
Pig-pen - potentially invincible. could've put himself out there as the leader of the townies. Would the mafia risk having a failed hit, or try an easier target? That'd be a risk I'd be willing to take...
Schroeder - most powerful townie role in the game, and used his power... once before traitorizing. As you saw in today's thread, he had the power to swing a vote one way or another by three votes! In what could've been the play of the game, which he could've done just tonight mind you - the conditions were perfect for it, he could've changed one mafia member's vote to the bomber, and potentially taken out two mafia members in one fell swoop.
Charlie Brown - could've used his role to prove himself to townies... ("prove you're CB" - Ok, I'll put "______" in the message tomorrow. That'll confirm it, and you can trust me), or give out messages that were too risky to say in person. Actually, vudu did a little of that towards the end. Too bad it was all wrong. :P
Peppermint Patty - made one rather reckless hit that just happened to be really lucky. But that's partly by design. If you just play the numbers game, odds are really good that you're going to either hit a protected townie, at which point a guaranteed alliance could have been formed, or a mafia member. It's telling that the one time you used your hit, you got a (future) mafia member.
Townies could've taken this game over today. I worked out an endgame for a lot of different options... the townies had options. Quite a few of them, actually. But that went down when Toru took the easy way out. As you can see, games get broken when people don't play to their allegiances.
Edit: Hmm... I should mention, I don't mean to take anything away from the mafia here. You guys played a well-planned, devious, strategic, game. You played your roles to their full potentials, I thought, and you deserve the win. Khush, the mastermind, congratulations. I'm mostly just disappointed that we didn't get to see some of the fireworks that could've happened between the two sides. That's all.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 31, 2008, 12:16:31 AM
The worst part is I KNEW Khush, GP, and DrewMG were mafia at the start of day 4! My gut was yelling at Gp being the bomber and Khush the godfather. I didn't have any proof so I sat on it and lost. This always happen too, it's like the 7 one I lost this way.... :ph:
PS When I say Khush is evil, kill him!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on October 31, 2008, 12:16:54 AM
And if Sally took thatguy's deal and betrayed the mafia, would you call him a dirty traitor too?
It's all in the rules.
You'll notice I never tried to court Sally. Sally is a mafia member until everyone else dies. It's not part of the role to betray her comrades.
As decoyman himself said about the Great Pumpkin role, on day 3 the townie would become a mafia member. At that point he would have to forgo any bonds he had formed with his prior team and play for the mafia. This is the exact same thing in reverse.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on October 31, 2008, 12:19:43 AM
Charlie Brown - could've used his role to prove himself to townies... ("prove you're CB" - Ok, I'll put "______" in the message tomorrow. That'll confirm it, and you can trust me), or give out messages that were too risky to say in person. Actually, vudu did a little of that towards the end. Too bad it was all wrong. :P
I thought about this but ultimately decided it was pointless. On day 1 we knew all the important townie roles. It would have accomplished nothing.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 31, 2008, 12:22:11 AM
Oh and for anyone wondering, the plan tomorrow was to for all of the mafia to vote out DrewMG including DrewMG himself. With Toruresu's help, we control the vote so you couldn't have stopped it. Thus, Sally is voted out, I hit Nickmitch and Schroeder becomes Mafia with Lucy being the only female role left.
Day 6 begins with 3 townies and 3 mafia left. A tie going to the mafia. Game over. Torurseu wins along with the mafia and thus his betrayal was never stupid.
As regards what Spak said, not to try to make you feel bad, but Toruresu's betrayal was not as bad as yours. Toruresu's betrayal gave him a win and was part of his role to be able to join the mafia. Your betrayal did nothing for you since you did not get to share in the win and it went against your role of voting out mafia members. But let's not discuss that anymore.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: that Baby guy on October 31, 2008, 12:22:29 AM
Quote
Peppermint Patty - made one rather reckless hit that just happened to be really lucky. But that's partly by design. If you just play the numbers game, odds are really good that you're going to either hit a protected townie, at which point a guaranteed alliance could have been formed, or a mafia member. It's telling that the one time you used your hit, you got a (future) mafia member.
I think that assertion is nullified by the fact that my ability was blocked day 2 and 3.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 31, 2008, 12:24:51 AM
Charlie Brown - could've used his role to prove himself to townies... ("prove you're CB" - Ok, I'll put "______" in the message tomorrow. That'll confirm it, and you can trust me), or give out messages that were too risky to say in person. Actually, vudu did a little of that towards the end. Too bad it was all wrong. :P
I thought about this but ultimately decided it was pointless. On day 1 we knew all the important townie roles. It would have accomplished nothing.
Yeah, your role wasn't anything amazing... I just thought it was kind of appropriate for somewhat bumbling and ineffective Charlie Brown. ;D Your "passive" powers (potentially recruiting Sally, invincible to Peppermint Patty's hits) were more important.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 31, 2008, 12:26:44 AM
I shall see to it that Toruresu will never get to fully play another mafia game ever, YOU WILL DIE ON DAY 1 FROM HERE ON OUT!!!! :ph:
VENDATTA!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Toruresu on October 31, 2008, 12:29:49 AM
:(
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 31, 2008, 12:30:10 AM
I'm going to post some of my ideas here that show how powerful the townie roles could've been.
Pig-pen - potentially invincible. could've put himself out there as the leader of the townies. Would the mafia risk having a failed hit, or try an easier target? That'd be a risk I'd be willing to take...
Schroeder - most powerful townie role in the game, and used his power... once before traitorizing. As you saw in today's thread, he had the power to swing a vote one way or another by three votes! In what could've been the play of the game, which he could've done just tonight mind you - the conditions were perfect for it, he could've changed one mafia member's vote to the bomber, and potentially taken out two mafia members in one fell swoop.
Charlie Brown - could've used his role to prove himself to townies... ("prove you're CB" - Ok, I'll put "______" in the message tomorrow. That'll confirm it, and you can trust me), or give out messages that were too risky to say in person. Actually, vudu did a little of that towards the end. Too bad it was all wrong. :P
Peppermint Patty - made one rather reckless hit that just happened to be really lucky. But that's partly by design. If you just play the numbers game, odds are really good that you're going to either hit a protected townie, at which point a guaranteed alliance could have been formed, or a mafia member. It's telling that the one time you used your hit, you got a (future) mafia member.
Townies could've taken this game over today. I worked out an endgame for a lot of different options... the townies had options. Quite a few of them, actually. But that went down when Toru took the easy way out. As you can see, games get broken when people don't play to their allegiances.
Edit: Hmm... I should mention, I don't mean to take anything away from the mafia here. You guys played a well-planned, devious, strategic, game. You played your roles to their full potentials, I thought, and you deserve the win. Khush, the mastermind, congratulations. I'm mostly just disappointed that we didn't get to see some of the fireworks that could've happened between the two sides. That's all.
Pig-Pen. Use Sally to block his ability. Mafia Hit.
Peppermint Patty. Use Sally to block ability. Mafia Hit.
Charlie Brown. Use Sally
Marcie. Use Sally
Schroeder. Use Sally. Or kill Marcie and Peppermint Patty, the two biggest mafia threats. Then kill Sally or wait for Schroeder to use his ability to do so and then join up as mafia.
The most powerful role in the game was Sally followed by the threat of a bomber.
This game was lost for the townies when Marcie was voted out. That did it. Peppermint Patty was thatguy. For any other mafia, thatguy would most likely have been either the first hit or investigation. Peppermint Patty was only going to get that first day hit.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Dasmos on October 31, 2008, 12:31:10 AM
lol, stevey.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 31, 2008, 12:31:36 AM
I shall see to it that Toruresu will never get to fully play another mafia game ever, YOU WILL DIE ON DAY 1 FROM HERE ON OUT!!!! :ph:
VENDATTA!
Stop being a jerk. None of the players did anything wrong. Everyone's goal is to win, and that's what he did. The townies were doomed this game, Khush has it right. There's not much they could have done, and aside from voting out RAB, they did just about everything they could.
Oh, and let's top it off with the fact that even if the godfather died, mafia hits would not be stopped. I'm sorry decoyman, it was a fun game, but there wasn't balance. Balanced games typically run long and don't require feats of incredible luck for the townies to win.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Toruresu on October 31, 2008, 12:34:35 AM
I shall see to it that Toruresu will never get to fully play another mafia game ever, YOU WILL DIE ON DAY 1 FROM HERE ON OUT!!!! :ph:
VENDATTA!
Yessssssss! I get to survive Day 1.
lol
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 31, 2008, 12:39:53 AM
I'll tell you what unbalanced this game, thatguy, and it wasn't the roles. It was Khush :P
But actually, there's one tiny tweak I would do if I had to do it all over again. That would be to add the ability for roled townies to win with the townies even if they weren't alive at the end.
That one tiny tweak might have kept Toru from defecting, and would've kept the townies in it.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 31, 2008, 12:44:11 AM
Just give me a day 5, it's not over till the fat lady sings.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 31, 2008, 12:45:48 AM
Khush probably true.
Still, there was an easy Townie win.
3 Mafia left 7 Townies left
10 players.
Today, if there was no betrayal (we know Khush is mafia) Khush dies and so does a townie.
2 Mafia left 6 Townies left.
Now, lets say DrewMg is still unknown as mafia...so GP which was pretty suspect is known...and lets say all the townies vote for her and DrewMg doesn't Worse case scenario. So we lose another Mafia member AND 3 townies.
1 Mafia left 2 Townies left.
Now, the person that didn't vote for GP is probably the last mafia...but say that person DID vote for the GP to hide his identity...he has a risk of being blown up. But say that doesn't happen. The round up means 4 deaths not three...or.
1 Mafia left 1 Townies left.
Tie goes to mafia.
Look, the game wasn't easy for the townies to win...but they could have won...specially if they hit GP last.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 31, 2008, 12:49:50 AM
Also Khush, Sally's only one person. She can't stop all those roles from happening each night. She has to choose her poison. Well... she did at the beginning, at least.
Plus, I've found out that I play mafia much differently from most of you guys. I keep my cards close to my chest, and don't let anyone but someone I'm totally confident I can trust to know everything about me. As it was, Khush managed to find out all the roles about everyone right away. I don't know how that happened, but I can only imagine that he infiltrated your townie alliance, and there were no safeguards to keep all the secrets from getting out. Since I didn't include a doctor this game, I figured important people would try to keep a lower profile... and vudu did that, along with toru.
Oh, one last thing: you guys should've known khush was the godfather. Way back on Day 1, before anyone knew anything, Khush was claiming to be a townie. In hindsight, only someone who would appear as a townie in an investigation would be so brazen. That should've clued you in that, if he was mafia, he was the godfather.
Anyways, I think we could argue and complain all night... but I really had a ton of fun. It's amazing watching the game from the host's perspective... I didn't get to see a lot of the goings-on, but once in awhile someone would PM me and tell me something interesting... and of course it was fun watching the interactions in the threads, too.
I'm going to work up a story for tomorrow which will hopefully be entertaining enough to let us all forget about the bad feelings. :P
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Gylldas on October 31, 2008, 12:53:13 AM
Boy was I left out of the loop. How did you guys figure out the roles so early in the game?
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 31, 2008, 01:00:48 AM
Well Gylldas I found out about thatguy from you as to Insanolord and toruresu. I am not sure. On day one khushrenada told me to investigate Insanolord or Stevey. I talked to Insanolord at that point and I guessed he might have a role. On day 2 Vudu and Toruresu were the choices I picked Toruresu.Finally on the 3rd day thatguy was my investigation.To find out if he was Pepperment patty.I really didn't talk to many people through PMs.Khushrenada did most of the footwork.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 31, 2008, 01:01:52 AM
Here's the strategy I came up with for the townies today. I don't see how the mafia could've countered it (well, without talking toru into joining them :P )
The only way for the townies to stay in this game is to protect Schroeder from going over to the mafia. That means they need to vote out Lucy tonight, or play the numbers game and vote Khush out tonight, then Lucy the next night. Whenever they decide to go after Lucy, they'll need to use Schroeder and Pig-pen as their prime voters, as Schroeder is immune, and Pig-pen also has a chance of surviving. That means, there'd still be at least two townies who wouldn't make it. They'll just have to agree to take one for the team.
Day 5, tonight (7-3): Right now, townies are up 7-3 in numbers. So, if they take Khush out tonight with the vote, and the mafia hits a townie, it'd be 6-2, with Sally and Lucy left in the mafia. Actually, thinking about this more... they NEED to take Khush out tonight to get the mafia's voting numbers down so they can take out Lucy the next day.
Day 6 (6-2): the townies NEED to take out Lucy (but I don't even know if they know that GP is Lucy). They also need to count on the fact that Sally will be using her power to negate some person's vote and/or action, and accommodate for that (make sure there's an extra voter, just to make sure). That would mean 4 people - pig-pen, schroeder, townie, townie. Lucy blows up and takes half her voters with her. Let's say Lucy takes out at least 2 (but it might only be 1, honestly, if Pig-pen draws the short stick, and survives). Mafia makes a hit on a townie.
Day 7 (3-1): remaining townies vote out Sally, and win.
Oh, I was assuming that Sally will be blocking Schroeder every night... but if she doesn't for whatever reason, the townies can win some style points by Schroeder using his power to switch Sally's vote to Lucy when the time comes. She may not die from it, but there's a chance. If so, there'd be 4 or 5 townies alive at the end to celebrate. The the "townie best-case-scenario," and most certainly won't happen. :P
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 31, 2008, 01:02:27 AM
Actually, since we're talking about the overpowered mafia, let's discuss that for a moment. This is the first time I've ever been chosen as the godfather for a game (please, hold the applause) and let me tell you, someone else can have it. Whew. Not the responsibilty I needed for the busy week I've had. Still, at least I can hide if investigated and maybe waste a townie investigation. Plus, I can kill whoever I want.
But then I look at my mafia. DrewMG, Maxi, and Golden Phoenix. I could have used another veteran. I mean, I can only hide from suspicion so long before I'm gone. And if I'm gone, who is going to guide them? They are still new at this game. We've got a suicide bomber but that's GP who I've made a big fuss about in the past whenever she is killed. Now I'm just supposed to try and get people to vote for her somehow? The outcry when she dies has been growing every game. I don't think she's ever going to be chosen.
By killing off townies, my goal, like I said, was for an experienced player to be chosen to lead the mafia when I'm dead and gone. Every night, I gave my mafia a primer in mafia advice and tips. Maybe too much info. But I had to educate them fast.
While my goal was to bring in an experienced player through the Great Pumpkin, I also wanted to do so something different. In most mafia games, the skilled players, the good players are killed fast since they are a threat to mafia. Well, I didn't want to do that. I wanted to leave the good players in the game. You see, to be the best, you have to beat the best. Moreover, it would serve my purpose of hiding as a townie if the townie roles kept living. Yes, I wanted to have a mafia victory where the townie roles were all still alive and make it a great crushing. It didn't work that way but maybe that is for the best.
You see, by leaving the good players in, it made it harder to discern who might be mafia since all good players would be a threat. Thus, the townies may start picking themselves apart voting out strong players while my group of weak players lay low and keep to themselves to maintain a low profile. Plus, with the wierd mafia hits, it would keep people guessing as to the true motive of the mafia or why they making these hits.
Of course, my goal is also to spread misinformation and truth so that when I'm gone, what I've said and done will be of no use to the townies. Look at what happened with thatguy thinking Drew and Golden Phoenix were innocent. That was truth. Yet, there were other things I told him that were lies.
When Maxi was being voted out Day 3, I wondered about switching the vote to GP somehow. Then I realized, the most powerful thing about the bomber wasn't the ability to take out numerous players, it was the fear it created in players. This could be used to prevent from ever mountinag a huge bandwagon. But if found out or killed, that fear would be lost. Thus, I stopped talking about GP.
That's another thing. Perhaps if you had voted any other mafia member but Maxi, the townies may have stood a chance. The mafia investigatior was useless at that point. We knew all the roles. But if Sally had been killed or the bomber taken out, heck even if I was removed, things could have become different in the end.
But please, let's not think this was an wasy cruise to a win. I had to instruct my mafia and be the one to face the most danger since it would be hard for them to start approaching townies and getting in allainces or getting information. I had to switch my plan from the Pumpkin Play to the Schroeder Switch with further back-up plans if that failed. And when the Pumpkin Play failed, I had created a dangerous situation by leaving all these experienced players in the game still. Thatguy, Dasmos, Vudu, Nickmitch, Pale, stevey (who's been hounding for my blood all game). Insanolord and Toruresu both had roles so they would have an alibi to join the townie allaince. I worried that the twist might have done us in.
Sure enough, when I left for the night, thatguy finally took the chance to declare me mafia. I was afraid it would happen but not much you can do about that. Then I committed to the Schroeder Switch by killing him off thus ensuring only a Sally death kept Toruresu from becoming mafia. I had hoped to keep thatguy's role nullified and drag him along to the end but I couldn't do it anymore at that point.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 31, 2008, 01:02:47 AM
Decoyman: After hosting 2 games...I can tell you that hosting is easily the most fun you can have in Mafia...you don't know what everyone is thinking, but you know all the secrets and it is just fun to see plans unfold or get foiled. And everything comes together and it is just fun.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on October 31, 2008, 01:08:37 AM
A couple of questions, if someone could clarify:
1) I'm a little unsure if Sally's ability could negate PigPen's. PigPen's ability isn't so much an ability as it is an intrinsic nature. He doesn't have to declare he's using it, so does Sally's power really affect Pigpen?
2) If someone is hit, do they still get a night action? A few nights ago, I (as Sally) negated thatguy, but he was getting hit by the mafia anyways. I guess I assumed that if the mafia hits someone, they don't get their night action.
But yeah, as a mafia member (and a relative n00b) it was astonishing to me how quickly Khush put together a picture of the game, and discovered who was playing what roles. The roles may have been a bit unbalanced, but having Khush as godfather pretty much spelled doom for the townies from Go.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 31, 2008, 01:13:13 AM
Today, if there was no betrayal (we know Khush is mafia) Khush dies and so does a townie.
2 Mafia left 6 Townies left.
Now, lets say DrewMg is still unknown as mafia...so GP which was pretty suspect is known...and lets say all the townies vote for her and DrewMg doesn't Worse case scenario. So we lose another Mafia member AND 3 townies.
1 Mafia left 2 Townies left.
Now, the person that didn't vote for GP is probably the last mafia...but say that person DID vote for the GP to hide his identity...he has a risk of being blown up. But say that doesn't happen. The round up means 4 deaths not three...or.
1 Mafia left 1 Townies left.
Tie goes to mafia.
Look, the game wasn't easy for the townies to win...but they could have won...specially if they hit GP last.
Quick point about this strategy. Believe me, I outlined the next day events carefully in my mind and even let Toruresu know all the mafia members and their roles so he could see for himself that even correctly voting would only provide that miniscule chance of a townie win.
The last mafia member would not vote for GP and risk his death by voting for her. That means you just have to have the mafia member and one townie vote for GP to win the vote against her since no one else will vote with her. Sally must vote with Lucy to force the townies to vote at least 3 members against Lucy to win the vote. And that's provided Sally doesn't block the vote out of one of those people voting, thus forcing a tie with a townie being potentially voted out by random chance. Thus, 4 people would have to vote against Lucy pretty much ensuring 2 townie deaths.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 31, 2008, 01:14:58 AM
1) I'm a little unsure if Sally's ability could negate PigPen's. PigPen's ability isn't so much an ability as it is an intrinsic nature. He doesn't have to declare he's using it, so does Sally's power really affect Pigpen?
2) If someone is hit, do they still get a night action? A few nights ago, I (as Sally) negated thatguy, but he was getting hit by the mafia anyways. I guess I assumed that if the mafia hits someone, they don't get their night action.
But yeah, as a mafia member (and a relative n00b) it was astonishing to me how quickly Khush put together a picture of the game, and discovered who was playing what roles. The roles may have been a bit unbalanced, but having Khush as godfather pretty much spelled doom for the townies from Go.
The best thing is, I still didn't share all my secrets with you.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Dasmos on October 31, 2008, 01:15:45 AM
Here's the strategy I came up with for the townies today. I don't see how the mafia could've countered it (well, without talking toru into joining them :P )
The only way for the townies to stay in this game is to protect Schroeder from going over to the mafia. That means they need to vote out Lucy tonight, or play the numbers game and vote Khush out tonight, then Lucy the next night. Whenever they decide to go after Lucy, they'll need to use Schroeder and Pig-pen as their prime voters, as Schroeder is immune, and Pig-pen also has a chance of surviving. That means, there'd still be at least two townies who wouldn't make it. They'll just have to agree to take one for the team.
Day 5, tonight (7-3): Right now, townies are up 7-3 in numbers. So, if they take Khush out tonight with the vote, and the mafia hits a townie, it'd be 6-2, with Sally and Lucy left in the mafia. Actually, thinking about this more... they NEED to take Khush out tonight to get the mafia's voting numbers down so they can take out Lucy the next day.
Day 6 (6-2): the townies NEED to take out Lucy (but I don't even know if they know that GP is Lucy). They also need to count on the fact that Sally will be using her power to negate some person's vote and/or action, and accommodate for that (make sure there's an extra voter, just to make sure). That would mean 4 people - pig-pen, schroeder, townie, townie. Lucy blows up and takes half her voters with her. Let's say Lucy takes out at least 2 (but it might only be 1, honestly, if Pig-pen draws the short stick, and survives). Mafia makes a hit on a townie.
Day 7 (3-1): remaining townies vote out Sally, and win.
Oh, I was assuming that Sally will be blocking Schroeder every night... but if she doesn't for whatever reason, the townies can win some style points by Schroeder using his power to switch Sally's vote to Lucy when the time comes. She may not die from it, but there's a chance. If so, there'd be 4 or 5 townies alive at the end to celebrate. The the "townie best-case-scenario," and most certainly won't happen. :P
This was my thinking as well, but it's hard to communicate a plan with people when, 1) You're a townie and you don't know all the roles in the game, 2) Everybody else is listening to louder people and 3) Vudu doesn't reply to your PMs.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 31, 2008, 01:16:24 AM
Enough talk, start a day 5 and prove you can!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 31, 2008, 01:17:00 AM
1) I realized later on that there were lots of clarifications I should've made. Some of them were about passive vs. active abilities, as I've been caling them to myself. For example, Pig-pen's ability was passive – like you said, he didn't have to activate it – it was just always on. So, no, you couldn't cancel that.
2) I thought about this later, and will make it clear in the rules threads if I ever host again. It would depend on the order the action was received. It's been handled that way in previous mafias, and it seems to make sense. Let's take your power out of the equation. Khush sent in the hit on thatguy on the same day that thatguy sent in a hit on Khush. So, who kills who? To me, it was whoever got the action in earlier. So, if thatguy had sent in the hit first, he would've killed Khush. However, with my rules about the hit and how it's carried out, thatguy would've been hit also by a remaining mafia member. So, since Khush actually sent in the hit on thatguy first, thatguy would die first. I think it makes sense that way.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Dasmos on October 31, 2008, 01:17:11 AM
2) If someone is hit, do they still get a night action? A few nights ago, I (as Sally) negated thatguy, but he was getting hit by the mafia anyways. I guess I assumed that if the mafia hits someone, they don't get their night action.
There's no really fair way to determine which night action came first, so both players still get a night action.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Dasmos on October 31, 2008, 01:19:03 AM
2) I thought about this later, and will make it clear in the rules threads if I ever host again. It would depend on the order the action was received. It's been handled that way in previous mafias, and it seems to make sense. Let's take your power out of the equation. Khush sent in the hit on thatguy on the same day that thatguy sent in a hit on Khush. So, who kills who? To me, it was whoever got the action in earlier. So, if thatguy had sent in the hit first, he would've killed Khush. However, with my rules about the hit and how it's carried out, thatguy would've been hit also by a remaining mafia member. So, since Khush actually sent in the hit on thatguy first, thatguy would die first. I think it makes sense that way.
The only fair way is that they both die. I thought that's how it was always done.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 31, 2008, 01:20:33 AM
Khushrenada I enjoyed reading the Primers.I learned alot.I am saving them.If you want could you send me another.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 31, 2008, 01:22:07 AM
I never go by the time an action was sent in. Either Aussie players get a huge advantage or a huge disadvantage. What about Plugabugz or other European players? The time difference means they won't be on right away to send in a night action first or fastest.
I still say that if a person is killed in the day vote, they lose their night actions. Otherwise all actions carry through. So, if I sent a hit on thatguy and thatguy sent a hit on me, we both die.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 31, 2008, 01:23:17 AM
So does this mean I actually lived THE WHOLE GAME. OMG OMG. ::celebrates:: :o
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 31, 2008, 01:25:11 AM
2) I thought about this later, and will make it clear in the rules threads if I ever host again. It would depend on the order the action was received. It's been handled that way in previous mafias, and it seems to make sense. Let's take your power out of the equation. Khush sent in the hit on thatguy on the same day that thatguy sent in a hit on Khush. So, who kills who? To me, it was whoever got the action in earlier. So, if thatguy had sent in the hit first, he would've killed Khush. However, with my rules about the hit and how it's carried out, thatguy would've been hit also by a remaining mafia member. So, since Khush actually sent in the hit on thatguy first, thatguy would die first. I think it makes sense that way.
The only fair way is that they both die. I thought that's how it was always done.
Hmm... I'm pretty sure I've been in mafia games with hits carried out the way I described. But I don't know, Khush has a point – maybe I'd do it the other way in a future game. This was my first game hosting, and although I tried to cover my bases, it seems bizarre situations still crept up on me. :P
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 31, 2008, 01:26:50 AM
2) I thought about this later, and will make it clear in the rules threads if I ever host again. It would depend on the order the action was received. It's been handled that way in previous mafias, and it seems to make sense. Let's take your power out of the equation. Khush sent in the hit on thatguy on the same day that thatguy sent in a hit on Khush. So, who kills who? To me, it was whoever got the action in earlier. So, if thatguy had sent in the hit first, he would've killed Khush. However, with my rules about the hit and how it's carried out, thatguy would've been hit also by a remaining mafia member. So, since Khush actually sent in the hit on thatguy first, thatguy would die first. I think it makes sense that way.
The only fair way is that they both die. I thought that's how it was always done.
Hmm... I'm pretty sure I've been in mafia games with hits carried out the way I described. But I don't know, Khush has a point – maybe I'd do it the other way in a future game. This was my first game hosting, and although I tried to cover my bases, it seems bizarre situations still crept up on me. :P
Because I stayed alive this is the best mafia game EVER.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 31, 2008, 01:37:49 AM
Yeah, I was caught off gaurd my first time hosting as well. I suddenly found myself asking how do night actions take priority? After your first hosting, you are better prepared for future games.
Another reason why I abhor night actions based on time received is a dirty little secret of mine. I played a mafia game on Animecyberat's first forum. It was a gong show for many reasons. The primary reason being that he based who got their hit through first. Never did want to admit that I played there after that game but I think Vudu is the only person around who'd remember that game so I can admit it now.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 31, 2008, 01:40:32 AM
Yeah you played a great game Golden.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 31, 2008, 01:43:56 AM
At Last! It can be revealed.
The Cat Next Door. World War II. Snoopy's greatest enemy's true identity is about to be made known. Click on the link below if you dare.
The horror (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=9047)
And for its last act, the Cat Next Door puts a hit on Snoopy!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Gylldas on October 31, 2008, 01:45:34 AM
Well congrats to the winners! Khush you are an evil genius. I'm looking forward to the next game.
---
I love the "Cat Next Door" :P
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 31, 2008, 01:46:43 AM
Khushrenada could you explain to Gylldas how you figured all of the roled players so fast. I know part of it was me and my perfect investigations, but what was the other half?
Ah that is great. I had a feeling that was going to come up.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: that Baby guy on October 31, 2008, 01:56:34 AM
I went ahead and told him my role when it was useless. I knew he'd block me anyways, if he were mafia, so I knew if he knew my role and thought I'd hit a townie, he wouldn't try to block me.
I tried to throw him off on night three, but accidentally named a mafia member as my target!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 31, 2008, 02:13:00 AM
Well this was a exciting game. I am going to bed.
Good game everybody.:)
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: RABicle on October 31, 2008, 04:57:23 AM
Nominating thatguy for man of the match.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 31, 2008, 08:34:43 AM
Khushrenada could you explain to Gylldas how you figured all of the roled players so fast. I know part of it was me and my perfect investigations, but what was the other half?
I flat out told him my role because it didn't matter. I had a fairly useless townie role, so I decided to try something different this game and be as forthcoming as possible. I told Dasmos, thatguy, Khush, Toruresu and I think a couple other people.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 31, 2008, 03:59:01 PM
Ah I see.
Decoyman where is that story?
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Toruresu on October 31, 2008, 04:14:19 PM
Yes, where is the story? I want to see what you did with my little change of heart.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 31, 2008, 04:44:01 PM
Yes, where is the story? I want to see what you did with my little change of heart.
Stayed up debating instead of writing, then I've been at work all day. It'll have to wait till I get home from work in a few hours! I promise, it's on its way!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 31, 2008, 04:47:48 PM
All right I will be waiting intently for your story.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: that Baby guy on October 31, 2008, 05:05:39 PM
Taking a little heavier of a look at this, I'd like to note a few things that help show the imbalance, by comparing the game to the game #27, another strong mafia win.
On that game, the mafia had no abilities, courted over a townie player, and the investigator was killed after the first day. In that game, no mafia members died, and after day 3, the game was over. The game had 12 players, and a perfect round took exactly 3 days, for the mafia. If there would be one complaint in the game, it was likely to be that the townies had no method to gauge who the mafia were. That's probably the biggest problem they had. Had they found one mafia member on any of those days, they would have had several more chances.
This game had five more players, 17. In it, there were five townie roles and five mafia roles, leaving seven normal, everyday townies. Two mafia members began the game with immunity to the investigator, three did not. The spokesman and PigPen were both roles that didn't even come into play this game, except for unification. The vigilante role did, sort-of, and the Vote-changing role really just hurt the townies. In the end, though, by the last day, two mafia members had been killed, and two more, of five, were known. A sixth mafia member would be added, taken directly from the townies. That's what's troubling. The townies found the mafia members at a moderate pace, it's true, they did, but they had no chance. They found the other townie roles at a lightening pace, but they had no chance. Despite a mafia member dying on day one, because a mafia member did not die on the second day, the game was lost. That fact that a mafia member died on day 3 made no difference, because the day 4 vote was completely tied up by the mafia, no matter what the outcome. No matter how the townies voted, even if they all voted together on day 4, there would be no possible way for the townies to win the vote. The game was absolutely over after the second day.
Let me reiterate that. The game was over the second day. Let's imagine that RAB wasn't voted off on the first day, that NickMitch, or some other normal townie was. Who was investigated? Gylldas, a townie. That means, had RAB lived, the townies still would have been equally as clueless as they were on the day 2 that occurred. Not to mention, the "Charlie Brown" role wouldn't have been able to broadcast the message, since RAB wouldn't have learned the role until the end of the first night.
But this is what bothered me the most: The comparison of how the mafia played to how the townies played. Decoyman mentioned ideal scenarios for the townies to act with, and it turned out most of them used their abilities, with the exception of PigPen, to their fullest extent. Charlie Brown exposed himself to nearly everyone. I even hit a mafia member. The townies all knew each other, for the most part, except for Toruresu, who was recruited by the mafia. Had PigPen done things proper, though, there would have been no impact on the game, since he's got a passive ability, and the mafia wasn't going to hit him, anyways.
He then goes on to say that the mafia used their abilities in chorus with each other. That's something that should happen every game when the mafia has abilities, because, let's face it, the mafia has complete trust of each other. Even Sally wasn't going to betray the mafia, as her betrayal conditions were much more slim than Schroeder's. I don't think it's fair to say that the townies should have worked together better, when the fact was, one had a counter-motive to work with the group, and only one other had an ability that could have been useful in the time frame given, and it was, in fact, used to hit a mafia member. The fact that RAB, Marcie, died, had no bearing on the outcome of the game. The fact that we knew the godfather on Day 3, and if I were to tell people he was the Godfather, it would have had no outcome on the game, even if he was voted out.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that despite the townies being organized, the only chance was, indeed, a lucky guess on day one or two's vote, since in both cases, it would have taken lucky guesses to kill a second mafia member by the end of Day 2.
The contrast to the game mentioned before was that with slimmer numbers, the townies had until the end of Day 3 to survive, and that was with their only "hope," the investigator role dead on Day 1. In that game, the chances the townies had were better. This game gave the townies very little hope to begin with.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 31, 2008, 07:47:07 PM
Thanks so much for singling me out when there was no real opportunity for me to use my power and you even admit that it wouldn't have mattered.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on October 31, 2008, 08:27:03 PM
Yes, where is the story? I want to see what you did with my little change of heart.
Stayed up debating instead of writing, then I've been at work all day. It'll have to wait till I get home from work in a few hours! I promise, it's on its way!
No just continue the game. I can still win! I never going to give up! NEVER!!!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: that Baby guy on October 31, 2008, 08:44:49 PM
Thanks so much for singling me out when there was no real opportunity for me to use my power and you even admit that it wouldn't have mattered.
We should have broadcast you as the investigator or as the vigilante, to try to draw hits to you, I will say that, but you didn't want to risk putting your name out there. Still, it wouldn't have made much of a difference, you were investigated the first night by the mafia, anyways. There's not much your role could have done, but had you done it, the odds are it wouldn't have mattered. The same goes on Day 2, I could have tried to hit someone on Day 2, but the mafia was blocking my ability. Had I tried to use my ability more, it wouldn't have mattered, but at least, then, we could say we played our best.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: decoyman on October 31, 2008, 09:09:27 PM
1) Forget the roles. First and foremost, townies must rely on sound townie logic fundamentals (compare voting trends/records, be watchful for contradicting statements and conflicting styles of play compared with other games, etc.). This also means that they shouldn't go blabbing their roles around to everyone they see, especially if that someone's name starts with a "K" and ends with a "hushrenada." ;) (this was the biggest mistake of the game, if you ask me). It's just like any other sport - you can't win without sound fundamentals. I don't remember if it was vudu or thatguy, but one of you was using those fundamentals when you noticed Maxi acting weird. And guess what - it led you to a mafia member! Another one is what I mentioned before about Khush saying he was a townie at the beginning, while Marcie was still alive – when it was decided he was mafia, it should've been a dead giveaway that he was the godfather from that statement alone. If you'd looked at voting records, you'd also see that most of the mafia members voted similarly, at least to start. Yeah, the game ended on Day 4, so there wasn't a lot, but there was enough to arouse suspicion. There was enough data there that, once Maxi was voted out, you should've been able to guess all the other mafia members. One of the things I always like to do when I'm a townie is compile voting records. Maybe that was done behind the scenes this time, and if so, then good. But if not, why not?
Further, this spills over into the "use all tools at your disposal" realm, and players' smarts are definitely tools. Take poor Stevey. Although Stevey has poor grammar/spelling, he's smart. Yes, he's silly at times with his "VEDETTA/VENDATTA"s, but when he gets down to it, he's proven he's good at reading between the lines in mafia, game after game. Yet, I don't know how many times I've seen him ignored or not taken seriously, as was the case this game. Also, let's list the veteran players who were on the side of the townies this game. Pale, Toruresu, vudu, thatguy, Dasmos, nickmitch, stevey. I've seen all these guys kick butt at mafia before, and was surprised that they couldn't come together to kick some butt this game.
2) Townies also had bad luck with the day 1 vote-out. That's just cruddy, I don't know what else to say about that. But does it show the lack of balance? Did it doom the townies? Not by a long shot. All the way up till Day 4, they had a chance to win the game.
3) Finally, roles. There were so many awesome uses for the roles for the townies... creative, game-impacting uses of the roles. Toruresu proved how powerful Schroeder's role was when he switched - the problem comes back to the fundamentals - your identities had all been compromised! After that point, it was like shooting fish in a barrel for the mafia. But that wasn't the only cool thing about that role. Here's another tactic which I envisioned could be used: Remember poor Oohhboy? The sicko who couldn't get to his computer to vote, and was in danger of being killed due to inactivity? Toru's power could've saved him. I was careful (and even italicized the rule in his role description) to say that his role has the power to attribute an official vote to a person. So, that would've meant Oohhboy didn't need to die. You guys didn't think beyond the common tactics enough, you just let Khush lead you around.
I still wish I'd added a townie win condition where roled townies would win if the townies won. That is the only balance issue I see. Everything else had a check, a balance, a counter.
5) Gameplan. How early is too early to start formulating an endgame strategy? It's never too early. That was what lured Toru over to the mafia, if you ask me. He was presented with a clear, well-thought-out plan that would allow him to win, which is pretty much everyone's goal in this game, right? If the townies had been thinking like I was and making strategies for the next day, and the next, and the next, I believe Toru wouldn't have been so easliy swayed. As is, I don't believe there was a gameplan, other than to live day-to-day. That's just no way to win when you're up against someone who most definitely DOES have a long-term strategy. Bobby Fischer would tell you the same thing.
Dang, got into it again. Story'll have to come later. :-X
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 31, 2008, 09:32:53 PM
Had that rule been in place I would have played the game more like thatguy wanted, I've never won in Mafia before and being in the position I was in I was playing a bit conservatively to try and survive.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 31, 2008, 10:32:40 PM
Decoyman I think you are stalling with the story till midnight.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on October 31, 2008, 11:23:06 PM
Thatguy - The game wasn't over on Day 4. It only ended because Toruresu took our offer. Toru could have used his ability to switch a mafia vote from Pale to GP, the bomber. In the explosion, it could very well have been a mafia member would go down with GP. That was my biggest fear. That Toru may try to betray us. He could have even voted Pale to pretend he was with us but use his ability silently against the mafia. Thus on Day 4, the vote could have gone 3 Pale, 4 GP. I didn't want to bring this up to protect Toruresu a bit but people keep talking about how unwinnable the game is for the townies. There's your answer.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Dasmos on November 01, 2008, 12:36:12 AM
Yes, the answer is Toru is a jerk.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: that Baby guy on November 01, 2008, 12:59:39 AM
Right, so, essentially, the only way for the townies to have won after day 2 was for the player who had no logical reason to to betray the townies. The mafia was able to provide a clear path to victory, because they had a clear path to victory.
The issue wasn't finding out the mafia members. Decoyman, if you talked to Khush regularly, you'd know he's always a big fan of joining the mafia if it's possible for him via the rules.
As far as things go, blabbing the roles really wouldn't have mattered. On Day 3, I was investigated, so when it was safe for me to hit again, he'd be able to block the hit then, anyways. In fact, telling him my role was the only chance I'd have to hit someone in the mafia, by lying about my target to him, and trying to pretend I was hitting a townie. Didn't work.
As far as stevey goes, sometimes he plays well, sometimes he doesn't. The whole game, he was against Khush because it's what he does, he suspects Khush until there isn't a reason to suspect Khush, when Khush is dead. That's not a good way to play the game. The fact was, Khush was talking to everyone, but making no progress this game, as far as new friends, new people to work with, or anything like that. That's what set things off, and why I absolutely believed Toruresu's message, and also why it was all more important to tell Khush my role, to feign belief that he was a good guy.
The fact is, everyday, up until day 3, most people voted in blocks. If there's four alive mafia players, and five votes each for two players, there's not much reason to crucify someone. The trap we set that Maxi walked into was just an attempt to see if he'd jump on another bandwagon, but it didn't matter at that point, because by day 3, there was no reason for Toruresu not to take the mafia's offer. The mafia's offer existed and worked despite two mafia members already being dead.
While Toruresu could've played to hope for a townie victory, there wasn't anything sure in that, Khush, whereas the mafia scenario, from day 3 on, was a sure thing, an absolutely positive, working path. That path was possible for a few reasons, the first of which being that the godfather's hit didn't stop even if he died. I'm not going to argue about the semantics of the logic behind that, I believe differently than you do about it, mostly because there should be some advantage to the townies for killing the godfather, the player who is most unlikely to be found, by his role's capabilities. It created a position in which Khush could safely message Toruresu, since losing either him or Maxi made absolutely no difference at that point, mafia wise.
The second aspect was just the overwhelming size of the mafia. Beginning (since Spak was chosen at the start) with nearly a 3:1 ratio creates a very difficult situation. It actually grew to be greater than a 3:1 ratio, just too large of a mafia for the townies to deal with. It seems to me that the townie/mafia ratio might fit better at 4:1, rather than 3:1, and never should it be able to eclipse that, because the townies need time to find irregularities and inconsistencies in the vote. You'll notice, Decoyman, that the townies did find three (counting Toruresu) of the four remaining mafia members by day 4. Find me another game that the mafia has won where the townies have voted out 1/3 of the mafia on the fourth day, and know 3/4 of the rest. Look at the last game we had, an incredibly balanced game, where it took several days to vote out the first mafia member, but the game wasn't over.
In fact, last game, the first mafia member wasn't voted out until the fifth day! There were four more players, I believe, but when there were no mafia members dead at day 5, and the townies still were able to win, that just goes to show the townies do need time to find mafia to have a chance at the game. My issue isn't with Khush's strategy, I don't see who wouldn't aim for about the same thing. It's that the townies killed two mafia members in the first three days, and that didn't mean squat because of the size of the mafia possible with the betrayal. Essentially, all the mafia had to do to win the game was find Toruresu and make sure they took a hit every night. You already said that on day 3, my hit wouldn't have gone through, because Khush targetted me earlier that night, so it didn't matter. You made it abundantly clear that if I hit a townie on Day 2, despite finding the Great Pumpkin, that I'd die. The basics were too many mafia members, not strong enough townie powers, Sally was too powerful with the roles available. Those three things are what unbalanced the game when bundled together, and the Lucy role was just almost impossible with the sheer size of the mafia. Even had I been able to tell who Lucy was, by that time, the mafia would know my role and kill me/block me from doing it from their own abilities.
And Khush, I don't think arguing that there was a pathway out for Toruresu to secure a win is a good idea, because if he teamed with you, there was a 100% chance of victory from the start of Day 3, and if he teamed against you, the odds of a townie victory where still very, very low. Any player with the goal of winning would have no choice but to side with you in that event. Not to mention, even if the townies were to win the game, he'd because the mafia would hit him after he betrayed them.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: RABicle on November 01, 2008, 01:55:00 AM
Further, this spills over into the "use all tools at your disposal" realm, and players' smarts are definitely tools. Take poor Stevey. Although Stevey has poor grammar/spelling, he's smart. Yes, he's silly at times with his "VEDETTA/VENDATTA"s, but when he gets down to it, he's proven he's good at reading between the lines in mafia, game after game. Yet, I don't know how many times I've seen him ignored or not taken seriously, as was the case this game.
You've got to be kidding. I'm pretty sure stevey has never at any stage been killed by the mafia because they know he's no asset to the townies.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on November 01, 2008, 03:20:36 AM
Hey, I get what you're saying, Thatguy. And don't get me wrong, I agree with most of what you are saying. It's just that this is Decoyman's first hosting and I don't want to see him get attacked to much. A first game hardly ever goes smoothly. The Mafia Hall of Fame will attest to that. Most of the games by first time hosts often have some kind of flaw.
But I do want to mention a couple last things. First, telling me your roles wasn't neccessarily a bad thing. This game I wanted to keep the townie roles around as long as possible and as a means of cover since I felt it would help my case of innocence with only townies dying while the roles lived.
Second, I wouldn't have hit Toruresu if he had betrayed us. After all, it would only take Sally's death to make him mafia so maybe the townies would hit Sally first by mistake. If things went south, I'd still want to hold out hope that maybe we could still get that extra mafia member and the number we would need to win. I'd want to take him out for not taking the offer but he could still be made to join unwillingly. You can't let emotion cloud rational thinking.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 01, 2008, 03:31:59 AM
Hey, I get what you're saying, Thatguy. And don't get me wrong, I agree with most of what you are saying. It's just that this is Decoyman's first hosting and I don't want to see him get attacked to much. A first game hardly ever goes smoothly. The Mafia Hall of Fame will attest to that. Most of the games by first time hosts often have some kind of flaw.
But I do want to mention a couple last things. First, telling me your roles wasn't neccessarily a bad thing. This game I wanted to keep the townie roles around as long as possible and as a means of cover since I felt it would help my case of innocence with only townies dying while the roles lived.
Second, I wouldn't have hit Toruresu if he had betrayed us. After all, it would only take Sally's death to make him mafia so maybe the townies would hit Sally first by mistake. If things went south, I'd still want to hold out hope that maybe we could still get that extra mafia member and the number we would need to win. I'd want to take him out for not taking the offer but he could still be made to join unwillingly. You can't let emotion cloud rational thinking.
That is what happened last game to me I was so mad that I couldn't see that decoyman was mafia.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: that Baby guy on November 01, 2008, 03:52:23 AM
Oh, no, it was a fun game, I'm not meaning to bash Decoyman at all. It would have been an amazing game with a few minor changes. The fundamentals were strong, especially, an interesting story every day was a big plus. The rules were well fleshed out, and any question asked had a pre-determined answer.
To be honest, the cause of the problem was the game before. From most players experience, being on the mafia causes a little bit of a paranoia, and I think feeling that paranoia, Decoyman overcompensated, believing that the previous game was less balanced than it seemed, just because he felt close to losing for a majority of the game.
Like I said, it was a great game, I just have an easier time talking about the bad stuff than the good. I'm just glad he kept a consistent story running through the whole thing, something I didn't manage when I did it. That's the real hard part.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 01, 2008, 04:38:27 AM
Yeah I liked that he had a story up each day in the thread. I liked the way he wrote it. I am glad that the host followed my suggestion.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 01, 2008, 06:03:19 AM
My opinion of this game:
1. Townies: We lost so it was rigged :'( 2. I won so it is the best ;D
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on November 01, 2008, 10:02:23 AM
It's just that this is Decoyman's first hosting and I don't want to see him get attacked to much. A first game hardly ever goes smoothly. The Mafia Hall of Fame will attest to that. Most of the games by first time hosts often have some kind of flaw.
Yes, and we are trying to help decoyman by explaining to him the flaws of his game so he can improve next time. There's nothing wrong with a little constructive criticism.
The fact of the matter is, the game was stacked towards the mafia. I said this waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the sign-up thread. Sure, there was a path for a townie victory after RAB died, but it would have required a "perfect" game, and the chances of that happening are slim.
Also, LOL at Stevey being good at the game and Toruresu being a "veteran player". I think this is only his third or fourth mafia game, and I don't recall a time when he was ever given the opportunity to have a big impact on the game before now.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Spak-Spang on November 01, 2008, 10:03:18 AM
So when do we get the Super Special Mafia Hawtness XXX signup?
Stevey's still doing that right?
And I think since this is the 30 mafia, if you don't signup you get banned from the funhouse thread.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Spak-Spang on November 01, 2008, 10:07:38 AM
Actually Decoyman and I both saw a path to victory for the townies to win late after day 3s successful hit of a mafia member.
Maxi was gone, and the townies could have won. I think the roles were balanced. I just don't think the special rules were balanced well. Actually let me take that back...once the Great Pumpkin was out of the game, the rules and roles were balanced...and that the only reason the townies lost was because of the special rule for a townie to become mafia. That member betrayed the team (although it was completely in his right to do so, and I have no complaint about his actions...anymore.) So once that happened the townies couldn't win...but before that happened the townies knew 2 mafia members definitely...and all that had to happen was voting them out in the correct order.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on November 01, 2008, 10:23:04 AM
the only reason the townies lost was because of the special rule for a townie to become mafia. That member betrayed the team (although it was completely in his right to do so, and I have no complaint about his actions...anymore.)
You do realize that Toruresu still lost the game, right? Sally was still alive at the end of the game so Toruresu didn't join the mafia. He lost the game with the townies. All he succeeded in doing was securing a loss for himself and his teammates.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Spak-Spang on November 01, 2008, 11:59:13 AM
Vudu: The game actually didn't end properly.
Yes, the game is over, but ONLY because Decoyman knew how the rest of the game played out. Technically, there are still more townies than mafia and therefore days 5, and possibly 6 needed to occur.
The game ended on the assumption that it was a foregone conclusion on how the townies and the mafia would have reacted. which is a false premise.
So technically Toruresu won, with the mafia.
However, I would like to point out, that I got in trouble from everyone for not playing the townie role correctly of routing for the townies. technically Toruresu should have acted as a townie up until the last role was killed for him to switch.
I know my statement is like the pot calling the kettle black, but it is true...the only difference is that Toruresu actually had the ability/chance to switch to the mafia. If everything played exactly right.
Well, guess what it probably wouldn't have...because if you would have sided with the townies, Khush would most likely been voted out first or second depending on the GP bomber situation...after that day, it would have been Khush, and still a female player alive.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 01, 2008, 03:54:58 PM
I have a question. When is the next game starting? If it starts before the 5th then I request that on the 5th we have a break that day. So people can play in the Wi-fi tournement that day.I think after this week would be good for people.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Toruresu on November 01, 2008, 04:00:17 PM
Well Ive been bashed enough times already :)
1. I play this and every other game to have fun, not to win. But to be honest, I have more fun when I win :D
2. The townie alliance had NOTHING. They learned I had a role because I went forward with thatguy thinking that, if he was Mafia, he already knew, because all the mafia knew of me and if he was a townie, he'd hook me up with the townie alliance.
3. He did hooked me up with Vudu, who sent me ONE msg, during the whole game (compared to the numerous msgs Khush and Maxi sent me), that ended in "What should we do?". The so called townie alliance did not exist, or they left me out of the loop.
4. I thought of every possible scenario in my head, and since I am NOT a "veteran mafia player" (I've played like 4, but its been the last 2 games that I've been able to be into it), I didn't see any way for me/us townies to win it, except if we played a PERFECT game. Since I believed there was no townie alliance so to speak and playing a perfect game was a real longshot, I did what I had to do to win.
5. Before accepting Khush's offer, I talked to the host of the game, and specifically asked if it was considered cheating for me to play as a mafia, even though i was still a townie. He said it wasn't, and that I should play however I felt like.
6. Khush didn't just say "Hey, join us" and I said "Oh heck yeah!". It took him effort, lots of PMs and explanations that I needed, so I could make sure it wasn't all a lie just to make them win.
7. On my side, it took a lot of thinking. I'm not accustomed to be the bad guy, EVER. This decision even gave me a moral dilemma.
8. I apologize if I broke the game, I apologize if you feel betrayed, Vudu, Stevey and the rest of the townies. But I do not apologize for playing the game to win.
9. When is the next Mafia game? :)
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 01, 2008, 04:22:36 PM
I think people take mafia way to seriously. When you lose a game of mafia it doesn't mean your lollipop was stolen!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on November 01, 2008, 04:48:40 PM
Khush would be dead if it was for you pussying out (that's two game you cost us with your shitty leadership)
I'm sorry, but when did I become the king of the townies? If you've had a better plan of attack I sure haven't heard it. KILL KHUSH isn't exactly a well thought-out plan. If there's anything going on in that brain of yours you sure don't share it with the rest of us.
3. He did hooked me up with Vudu, who sent me ONE msg, during the whole game (compared to the numerous msgs Khush and Maxi sent me), that ended in "What should we do?".
Way not to mention the four paragraphs preceding the "what should we do" that explained my plan. ;) As I said, I'm not the self-appointed leader. Democracy rules. I sent you and Insanolord what I thought we should do. But I'm certainly not going to order you what to do. I assume you're old enough to think for yourself. When neither of you respond to my single PM (and Insanolord doesn't even bother to show up to vote) it's not my fault when things fall apart. Have the decency to admit some fault.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Toruresu on November 01, 2008, 05:13:15 PM
Haha Vudu.
Im not saying its your fault bro. Im saying the townie alliance was nonexistant, and you confirmed it for me :)
Admit some fault to what? Winning the game? :P
I'm kidding, I know what you mean. But, as things were, and since 1. thatguy pointed me to you (or you to me) 2. you took the iniciative to send me a msg 3. knew who the other townies with roles were (at least one, Insanolord)
I assumed you were going to lead. It's not a matter of democracy, but a matter of timing and the information you had (unless you didn't, then I'd understand).
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Plugabugz on November 01, 2008, 05:15:11 PM
I would like to shout out thatguy. I wasn't playing (and noted that in the signup thread) yet he still PM'ed me. 10 points for not missing an opportunity ;)
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Khushrenada on November 01, 2008, 06:23:38 PM
the only reason the townies lost was because of the special rule for a townie to become mafia. That member betrayed the team (although it was completely in his right to do so, and I have no complaint about his actions...anymore.)
You do realize that Toruresu still lost the game, right? Sally was still alive at the end of the game so Toruresu didn't join the mafia. He lost the game with the townies. All he succeeded in doing was securing a loss for himself and his teammates.
And that bugs me the most. I begged and pleaded with Decoyman to put up the Day 5 thread, even for a few minutes just to show that everything was legal in the end.
The plan for Day 5 was to vote out DrewMG. Toruresu was going to switch stevey's vote from me, presumably, to DrewMG and DrewMG would block Vudu while also voting himself out. We controlled the vote and it showed Toru everything was on the up and up and that Sally would die for him to take her place. I hit Nickmitch and game over. But Decoyman just basically confirmed that was the plan and decided to just call the game now and write all the events in a jumbo story. C'est la vie.
I have no problem with constructive criticism either. I also warned Decoyman about balance issues. I told him that if he is going to have a 5 person mafia, he should get at least 22-24 people signed up. Let's take the great pumpkin out of the game since in a way, it was never a factor.
I think the other thing that still tipped the advantage over to the mafia was the suicide bomber on our side. This was another thing I warned him about. If the bomber didn't exist and was just a regular mafia goon, then the townies defintely would have had a good chance at winning. There was only way to stop the bomber safely and that was the vigilante and you just can't rely on that person lasting long enough to finally find the correct person and get the hit. So, I think Decoyman is well aware of what can be done for future games. He went his way with this game and now he has a better understanding for future games.
Still a good host.
I don't know why we have to rip players after the game. I'm getting sick of the Vudu criticism. Vudu's a better player than 90% of the people who have played this game. The only reason people think he should have been the leader is that he had the chance to address the townies everyday with his message and organize them and he didn't. Sure, he said vote Nickmitch but that was more a trap than an actual suggestion. But for the townies left out of the loop, it just confuses them. Maybe Vudu isn't use to leading a townie alliance but how many players can even form a townie alliance?
As for stevey, people often marginalize him but I've worked in an alliance with him before and as long as you let him know what is going, he does pretty good and helps out a lot. I wouldn't call him a leader either but he can definitely contribute if you give him the chance. That's why I left him alive. I knew that everyday he would vote for me and with Toru's power, I could change that vote to however else I wanted thus making stevey work for me. I didn't realize Toru could change anyone's vote even if they didn't cast a vote.
Personally, I wouldn't start another game too soon. This game came pretty quick after the last game. I say, give it a breather and let people cool down after this last game. Wait a week and then post a sign-up for the next game for a week and go for there. So, the game should start around Nov. 17. That will most likely be our last game of the year as well I would think.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: vudu on November 01, 2008, 07:07:00 PM
You lost. I don't care what you or Khush says. The game ended on day 4 because there was no chance of a townie victory. At the time the game was called you were a townie. You lost with the townies.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: stevey on November 01, 2008, 08:02:34 PM
Quote
As far as stevey goes, sometimes he plays well, sometimes he doesn't.
I don't try to play the same way in every mafia game. The benefits? How many times have khush, thatguy, spank, vudu, and rab died on day 1? How many time have I died on day 1? (Not counting counter vendetta bandwagons, and Zach's failure of a mafia game :ph: .....)
Quote
The whole game, he was against Khush because it's what he does, he suspects Khush until there isn't a reason to suspect Khush, when Khush is dead. That's not a good way to play the game.
If you look back at day 3, I stop the vendetta votes and sided with Khush for a while (and voted out a mafia member). + you're a hypocrite
Well, I would have to say, you can never trust Khushrenada. And that 18 Days guy is almost always mafia. Either one of them would be pretty safe bets.
Quote
The fact was, Khush was talking to everyone, but making no progress this game, as far as new friends, new people to work with, or anything like that. That's what set things off, and why I absolutely believed Toruresu's message, and also why it was all more important to tell Khush my role, to feign belief that he was a good guy.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: that Baby guy on November 01, 2008, 09:21:23 PM
Yeah, those are jokes for me. In my first games, Khush and I would almost always lead an alliance to victory.
Really, though, stevey, if you'd at least respond a little to people, it wouldn't be a problem. As it stands, though, you start voting Khush, and don't contribute much until someone else figures something out for you, first. After that point, you're right, you do play the game very well. It's just reaching that point can be frustrating on my end.
Anyways, again, you all should back off Toruresu. He made the right choice. He made the best choice, and under the rules of this game, he would win. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't think you should hold it against him, not in the game, not in any way. This isn't two games ago. That's in the past, and most have relatively forgotten that, anyways.
The game was fun. People have been interested. It wasn't perfectly balanced, that's been established, but I had a great time playing it. I think most other players did too.
The last bit, Toruresu, is that no matter what, on the last day, the mafia's plan would, no matter what, be much more solid than the townie's plan. There just weren't any great options for the townies to take at that point, and the townies, other than you, didn't know the roles the other players had for certain. We'll be fair in saying that Vudu, nor any other townie aside from you, could not have formed a solid plan, that's why you didn't hear from him. I don't blame you at all for choosing to side with the townies, but you were the one in the best position to make a plan for them, so please don't blame Vudu, unless you sent him the same list that Khush sent you on that last day. That's the honest truth.
Regardless, the game is over. Keep this game to itself, and please, if anything, don't carry over grudges to the next one. It makes this messier and more difficult, for example, look at the vicious votes at NickMitch just because he fooled you all in the game before. That's not a good way to go, after all, so much attention was focused on him this game, most players overlooked a lot of the actual mafia members!
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: Spak-Spang on November 02, 2008, 05:49:07 PM
I think I have the record for dying the most on day 1...but that isn't fair, because the first 4 or 5 games I played in a row I died first day...because I wasn't given a chance.
It was like a running gag.
Title: Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
Post by: that Baby guy on November 02, 2008, 06:17:43 PM
Actually, I saw that, looking through the big 'ol mafia thread. It made me doubt killing you on Day 1 just because...
Then I did anyways, since I thought it would be unpredictable. At least you died on Day 1 and still won, eh? Eh?
