NWR Interactive => TalkBack => Topic started by: Deguello on July 23, 2008, 02:13:34 PM
Title: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Deguello on July 23, 2008, 02:13:34 PM
This will be an introductory course in the classification, identification and strategies on dealing with Hardcore Gamers in your midst.
First, since definitions are so popular, it must be made clear that Hardcore Gamers are not to be confused with Core Gamers. Core gamers play core games and discuss strategies and appreciation on the internet. Hardcore Gamers write petitions to Blizzard to make the game "darker and more gritty." Hardcore moan about being "abandoned." Hardcore Gamers are much more histrionic than your average person. When equipped with these definitions, they become easy to spot on any random forum.
But even so defined, they may easily blend in with the regular forum members. But there are a few distinct and also compulsive habits they exhibit:
#1 Making strange requests.
For example, the request of 2D Castlevania games. Now I know, dear reader, that you are quickly typing up a Quick Reply saying how there have been SEVEN 2D Castlevania's since 2001, but please allow me to finish. The request is not for those games, as all of those games are for handheld consoles, deemed lesser gaming experiences by the hardcore. The routine request is for 2D Castlevania on consoles. Because of the continuing dissatisfaction with the absence of 2D Castlevania on consoles, it becomes quite clear that the issue is not with games' existence, but with control, which is altogether unrelated to games itself. You will see this every time a petition is started attempting to control game companies' direction, like for example the Diablo III petition to "make the game darker" and "include more violence," and "show scenes of human depravity." (Yeesh, I hope that's not what that last guy finds entertaining.)
#2 They will complain chiefly about graphics.
I will admit I can be fond of graphics. It's amazing what Square Enix can do with the DS to make it look better than some of their earlier PSP (and even PS2) efforts. Liking graphics is no problem, and good graphics on any console are possible, as evidenced in the indifferent attitude towards graphics last generation, despite the GC and the Box being several standard deviations above the PS2. Graphics are also an indicator of effort, as well as the desire to cultivate an artistic image, even when the game itself is very simple. However, the hardcore will add two initials that will identify them. HD. The insistence for HD and detraction of anything less than HD has little to do with actual graphical progress. It is simply a validation for the money spent on bigscreen televisions and 7.1 surround sound systems and the latent fear that in a few years one of those unwashed and unclean casual gamers maybe be able to enjoy HD gaming after the glut for pennies of the dollar of what he spent for his HD Temple.
The consequences for companies acquiescing to this demand is evident, as third parties consolidate and less games are released and less types of games are scheduled. Furthermore, some adopt strategies of "portfolio diversification" where they squeeze out effortless games onto more popular platforms in order to simply fund the unsustainable HD games. I say "portfolio diversification" because this is a defense against what they are really doing, which is "sending good money after bad." Portfolio diversification is maintaining shares and stakes in multiple "profitable" ventures. The other strategy is taking profits away from the source of them to fund unsustainable efforts. This is also relatively new in the gaming world, as most third parties piled onto the PS2 once it cemented itself as the market leader, regardless of the perception that PS2 owners were nothing but DVD watchers and Madden Players.
#3 The hatred of the new.
This is not new concepts or game styles. This is new PEOPLE. The hardcore treat their hobby like an exclusive club that only they should be in. The introduction of new people frightens and confuses them as they have not "earned" the right to play video games, and are almost aristocratically scared to look, talk to, or heaven forbid, touch one. Most of these new gamers are children, some females, some elderly, anything that lands outside of the 18-30 male demographic.
One possible explanation is personally historical. The group that particularly causes discomfort is the children. Almost like looking into a time machine, they are taken back to their first game purchase and remember that fat greasy comic book nerd who mocked their selection of Bad Street Brawler or Nuts 'N' Milk, and treated them with a scoff as they selected a game for their superior 16-bit Amiga. Instead of being a guide to art or quality within the parameters, they were treated with scorn and derision.
The internalization of this belief and the learned and conditioned behavior of "hardcore" Amiga owners causes the hatred of the self, symbolized in the outward hatred of anything "childish" or actually the new gamers themselves and their selections of software.
Another possible explanation for the outright hatred of new gamers links back to habit #1, which is the exertion of control. Attitudes such as "How could these new people like what they like and not like what I like?" Thus the new gamers are treated with scorn and not treated with constructive comparison and culture cultivation. This method of hatred can be latent, as seen with distinctly drawn group-labels for "us" and "them." Every discussion becomes centered around how a certain game is labeled and who fits into that label and why. This can be linked to the third phase of Kubler-Ross's Stages of Grief, Bargaining, wherein the Hardcore Gamer is attempting to bargain with the erosion of his control and influence by saying "You can be here as long as you stay over there with your people and I stay over here with my people." But, like segregation in the South, the underlying attitude is that of inequality, and will soon erupt again once the new people cultivate their tastes independent of the Hardcore's influence, as he squandered his opportunity to have any in order to live in a Hardcore Fortress.
This is merely an introduction into the habits of Hardcore Gamers. There will be more as the generation moves and the market shifts, and I hope to document more.
As a bonus, here is the guide to identifying a gamer in the wild:
Anybody with a controller/stylus in their hand.
Thank you for reading and I hope I have been informative.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: RABicle on July 23, 2008, 02:48:58 PM
What? I hoped you'd talk about their bizarre social mannerisms and gawky looks!
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 23, 2008, 02:49:19 PM
This new learning amazes me.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Plugabugz on July 23, 2008, 03:52:21 PM
Deguello is the new Moira Stewart. The world will end and he will still tell it like it is. People rejoice!
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 23, 2008, 07:11:51 PM
Sad, I think Deg is right. :(
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 23, 2008, 07:21:29 PM
This article needs to be promoted. Anyone have GAF posting privileges?
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Peachylala on July 23, 2008, 11:27:23 PM
Quote
Furthermore, some adopt strategies of "portfolio diversification" where they squeeze out effortless games onto more popular platforms in order to simply fund the unsustainable HD games.
Y halo thr Ubisoft.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: stevey on July 24, 2008, 12:59:39 AM
You know you're a Hardcore Gamer if you spent your time looking for other Hardcore Gamers.
Possibly to mate....
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 24, 2008, 02:24:17 AM
You know you're a Hardcore Gamer if you spent your time looking for other Hardcore Gamers.
Possibly to mate....
We've got just thing for you: http://www.soulgeek.com/ How disturbing is that site?
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Ceric on July 24, 2008, 02:35:40 PM
This reminds me about how racist the the talks about elections are as well...
Well nothing to it, I give you:
A Five Point Five. Good effort but I believe the points are too universal
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 24, 2008, 07:33:51 PM
I don't get point #3 where it mentions fear of new people is due to loss of control. For some people maybe that's what it is but there is a also a totally rational reasoning for not wanting new people on board. I guess it's jealousy in the literal definition of fear of losing something. In the case of Nintendo the fear is because the new group has such different tastes than the old group and is bigger than the old group that the old group will slowly get squeezed out. Maybe you don't see it and it sounds irrational to you but with the Wii I see it. It's plain as day to me.
It isn't fear of new people. It isn't the desire to have an exclusive club or to have control. It isn't a refusal to share. It is fear of something being taken away. It is fear of a hobby casting aside the very people who made it a success in the first place. You act like it's a fear of immigration when really it's a fear of invasion. Sharing the land vs. being exiled.
Are you promoting complacent conformity? If our hobby is being changed into something we don't like should we just take it?
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 24, 2008, 08:34:32 PM
Jeff, did you lose your staff login or something? This is a reply-only forum, and you're creating threads. Mod power abuse!
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 24, 2008, 08:44:00 PM
Are you promoting complacent conformity? If our hobby is being changed into something we don't like should we just take it?
Ian, the only real answer at this point is to buy a 360 or PS3. That's the only way you'll actually get a broad variety of games that aren't consistently targeted at children, your parents, your grandma, or your girlfriend who doesn't like video games. I would normally say that the DS is Nintendo's last bastion of traditional gaming, but now that the cat's out of the bag that it's 46% female, I'm expecting it to fall any time now.
All I can do is hold Bangai-O Spirits close to my heart, and think of better times.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Deguello on July 24, 2008, 09:18:18 PM
I don't get point #3 where it mentions fear of new people is due to loss of control. For some people maybe that's what it is but there is a also a totally rational reasoning for not wanting new people on board. I guess it's jealousy in the literal definition of fear of losing something. In the case of Nintendo the fear is because the new group has such different tastes than the old group and is bigger than the old group that the old group will slowly get squeezed out. Maybe you don't see it and it sounds irrational to you but with the Wii I see it. It's plain as day to me.
It isn't fear of new people. It isn't the desire to have an exclusive club or to have control. It isn't a refusal to share. It is fear of something being taken away. It is fear of a hobby casting aside the very people who made it a success in the first place. You act like it's a fear of immigration when really it's a fear of invasion. Sharing the land vs. being exiled.
Are you promoting complacent conformity? If our hobby is being changed into something we don't like should we just take it?
There is one key part in your response that... when brought to light, definitely gleams truth.
You are not an original gamer. You too are an immigrant.
Games did not start with the NES. The NES was looked down upon by the 16-bit gaming computer owners who had just such a reaction. They chided the NES and said it was for girls and old fogeys who didn't have the hardcore capacity to use a multifunctional keyboard and instead had to use a D-Pad and TWO buttons.
Another myth is the "casting aside" of the people that made Nintendo into the success it was. Who were those people that made the NES a success again? Was it children? Was it the children and non-gamers? Could it have been them?
Or how about the SNES, which started to have games aimed at older demographics? Who was "cast aside" there? And the N64, the darling of college frat GoldenEye parties? Are you retroactively claiming the GC was a success after Nintendo basically aimed all of their software at hardcore gamers with a laserlike focus? Ian, I seem to remember you having fits that Nintendo only made games that appealed to the hardcore Nintendo fan and not making games that were "mainstream." Has this changed now that you don't like the result?
And it is about control. Like you said, it is fear of "invasion," which is the loss of the relative control of a country through force. Or like immigration, which is the loss of control of the population makeup. Like you said your hobby is "being changed" by someone else. The locus of control is away from you.
And no I'm not promoting conformity. I don't know where you get that idea.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 24, 2008, 09:52:16 PM
Somehow Ian thinks his problems are mainstream problems.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Deguello on July 25, 2008, 12:46:33 PM
Apparently I've been behind the times when it comes to NWR site practices.
I thought this special forum WAS the Staff Blog. I didn't know it was a site feature. HAH!
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Dasmos on July 25, 2008, 01:43:10 PM
POTY. holy ****, deg. you're spot on.
and lol @ the floundering of ian and silks.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 25, 2008, 02:05:46 PM
Quote
Ian, I seem to remember you having fits that Nintendo only made games that appealed to the hardcore Nintendo fan and not making games that were "mainstream." Has this changed now that you don't like the result?
At the time "mainstream" was used in a different context. Nintendo was making tons of sequels and lots of cutesy looking games but little variety. Whole genres were neglected, there wasn't a good balance of family friendly games vs. mature games. I was thinking more about there was a big group of younger players who were playing GTA and Halo and didn't have a nostalgic connection to Mario and Zelda and that Nintendo needed more than that. They needed to cut back on the Mario spinoffs and devert those resources to making new IP or experimenting in genres they normally ignored. But the general assumption was that would be stuff Nintendo fans and hardcore gamers would like. Goldeneye was pretty different than typical Nintendo fare and Nintendo fans ate it up. My arguement was that more variety and less emphasis on franchises (ie: still make Mario games but not so many spinoffs) and experimenting with other genres and having a better mature|everyone ratio would make Nintendo's console more desirable to the sort of gamers that would write Nintendo off while still producing an output that Nintendo fans would enjoy because Nintendo fans like high quality games.
Nintendo did something none of us expected by going completely outside of the gaming market. We used to think a casual gamer was someone who played Madden and GTA and nothing else and occasionally bought some junk like Enter the Matrix because they got conned by marketing. They had lousy or very narrow tastes in games and a much more casual interest in videogaming. They were the sort of person that sold their old games all the time and would write off 2D games as old looking. But they still liked videogames. Nintendo however was now targetting a group that specifically didn't like videogames. That is totally different.
This introduced the concept of non-gamers and non-games. This was so different than anything before. Gaming had always moved forward. Sometimes not in directions we all liked. I like how they went 3D for example but always disliked how that created an attitude that 2D was outdated. To be a gamer you had to understand videogames would change over time. Sometimes really hardcore niche gamers would complain like the examples you mentioned.
But this is the first time someone specifically stepped backwards. Attracting people who don't like games also creates the issue where core elements of what defines a videogame are removed. Yeah gaming has always changed but there has always been some objective or challenge. You look at something like Wii Music and it seems so stripped down that it doesn't come across as a videogame. That is something much more than NES vs. PC or 2D vs. 3D or Atari or Sega going under or arcades dying. This is "videogames" no longer being videogames. This is effectively going back to Pong and removing the scoreboard and telling people just to fool around hiting the ball back and forth and maybe even make it so you don't actually have any controller over the paddle. You just turn the knob and it works out regardless of what you do.
I'm not an original gamer. I can't be. I wasn't even born yet when Pong or the Atari came out. But when I became a gamer I was interested in videogames. Maybe I initially picked games that hardcore gamers would scoff at and maybe my influence on the market ruined things for them and maybe even as I became more interested in the hobby and became more knowledgeble of it my tastes never reflected their's. But I was interested in videogames. This is a group that IS NOT interested in videogames but is having videogames altered so that they like it. I think that is a HUGE difference. That's never happened before.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Dasmos on July 25, 2008, 02:13:30 PM
lol ian, how about we condense your whole ****-filled post into one sentence.
"i don't like gamez" by iansane.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Pale on July 25, 2008, 02:45:24 PM
I'm sorry, but when the die hard among die hard Nintendo fans avoid finding ANY fault in this year's e3, it really makes them look bad.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: vudu on July 25, 2008, 02:54:17 PM
It's not that we can't see the faults of the show; it's that we don't feel the need to write long-winded posts about the topic over and over again.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Dasmos on July 25, 2008, 03:03:36 PM
It's not that we can't see the faults of the show; it's that we don't feel the need to write long-winded posts about the topic over and over again.
Bingo!
I wasn't happy with the E3 conference, but I'm not complaining about being ignored (AS A HRADCORE [2 DA MAX!] GAMER) or predictinG the fall of Nintendo based on it.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 25, 2008, 03:25:40 PM
I'm sorry, but when the die hard among die hard Nintendo fans avoid finding ANY fault in this year's e3, it really makes them look bad.
E3 was disappointing but I think some of us are stating that we need some perspective on it. Nintendo treated it like a casual gamer oriented show and should not be seen as "ignoring the hardcore" in their overall plan. Personally I thought it was a poor show for the casual, non-gamer community as well. Then again every other conference was disappointing!
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Yoshidious on July 25, 2008, 03:32:21 PM
By my interpretation of Deg's remarks, "hardcore gamers" are defined (beyond simply their taste in games) by their intolerance of others and a supremacist attitude. I agree that these unpleasant traits are all-too-often observable within those of us who frequent gaming message boards. I believe that people's personal taste in games are not up for debate, but their attitudes towards the preferences, opinions, and perspectives of others who may feel differently are another matter entirely.
Sadly, I have noticed Deguello personally exhibit the very same behaviour he condemns when it comes from the keyboards of those preoccupied with HD graphics. For instance, rather than being satisfied with registering his disagreements with Silks (regarding his "serious gamer" comments, PS3--areas where I have my own disagreements with Silks) and rebutting his arguments, Deg has deemed it necessary to repeatedly ridicule him in a thread that was only related to those debates insofar as it was started by Silks. This is an act of intolerance, an expression of the need to demean someone because they are "on the other side" of an issue, and it cannot be excused on the grounds of perceived transgressions committed by Silks.
When responding to Jonny's Mario Kart Wii review, Deg discussed those that concurred with certain criticisms of the game that he personally did not share, stating "I think more is being said about those people than about Mario Kart." The clear inference to be drawn from this statement is that Deg did not consider the disagreement to be in any sense legitimate, a product of differing points of view. Instead, it was apparently a mere function of deficiencies in the character of those with whom Deg disagreed. Such assurance in one's own superiority could just as easily be ascribed to "hardcore gamers" when they assert that only people of limited intellectual capacity can enjoy a so-called "casual" game.
I make these observations not to slam Deg, but to make the point that "hardcore gamers" do not have a monopoly on the supremacist sentiment that Jeff rightly decries in this context. The folly of the "hardcore gamer" is simply the folly of intolerance itself, and only demonstrates how vital it is to maintain respectful disagreements when we find ourselves at odds with one another over something.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: vudu on July 25, 2008, 03:52:34 PM
Fight intolerance with intolerance.
I've come 'round full circle
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 25, 2008, 04:23:31 PM
I think my reaction is less a result on the casual focus of E3 (though it does bother me) and more on the revealed details of Wii Music. The fact that Nintendo would ever make something so far removed from a videogame is frightening.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: vudu on July 25, 2008, 04:38:10 PM
Nintendo has a long history of doing things that are off the wall like this. Look at "games" like Mario Paint, Hey You Pikachu and State Debut. (Hell, even Animal Crossing and Nintendogs don't exactly count as games.)
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Plugabugz on July 25, 2008, 04:40:06 PM
Greg is a true poet with nintendo-like polish.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Pale on July 25, 2008, 04:42:24 PM
I think the problem with WiiMusic is that there IS room for it to be a game. PLENTY of room, even if the result is extremely simple. Look at band bros. It's far from a complex music game, but it's a freaking riot.
That's what I expected out of Wii Music.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 25, 2008, 04:43:27 PM
I think the problem with WiiMusic is that there IS room for it to be a game. PLENTY of room, even if the result is extremely simple. Look at band bros. It's far from a complex music game, but it's a freaking riot.
That's what I expected out of Wii Music.
Totally agreed. I expected something similar to Band Bros. and not seeing that happens just makes me sad because it is unrealized potential. Same goes for Animal Crossing, it just feels like it missed the boat ... again.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: shammack on July 25, 2008, 05:39:59 PM
Why does every philosophical discussion or big argument about the direction of Nintendo have to turn into a discussion about Wii Music?
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 25, 2008, 05:41:41 PM
WiiMusic > Nintendo?
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Shift Key on July 25, 2008, 07:19:00 PM
Why does every philosophical discussion or big argument about the direction of Nintendo have to turn into a discussion about Wii Music?
Because Nintendo closed their press conference with it as their HUGE holiday title? Seriously, aren't we supposed to be looking at it as their current direction?
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: wandering on July 26, 2008, 04:00:43 AM
I would normally say that the DS is Nintendo's last bastion of traditional gaming, but now that the cat's out of the bag that it's 46% female, I'm expecting it to fall any time now.
First our schools fell, then our workplaces. Now, they're corrupting one of the few things that wasn't tainted by their evil estrogenic influence: our videogames. Is nothing safe?
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 26, 2008, 04:03:41 AM
Lindy a misogynist CONFIRMED.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 26, 2008, 10:00:32 AM
I only beat women when I play against them in video games.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Deguello on July 26, 2008, 02:28:11 PM
By my interpretation of Deg's remarks, "hardcore gamers" are defined (beyond simply their taste in games) by their intolerance of others and a supremacist attitude. I agree that these unpleasant traits are all-too-often observable within those of us who frequent gaming message boards. I believe that people's personal taste in games are not up for debate, but their attitudes towards the preferences, opinions, and perspectives of others who may feel differently are another matter entirely.
Sadly, I have noticed Deguello personally exhibit the very same behaviour he condemns when it comes from the keyboards of those preoccupied with HD graphics. For instance, rather than being satisfied with registering his disagreements with Silks (regarding his "serious gamer" comments, PS3--areas where I have my own disagreements with Silks) and rebutting his arguments, Deg has deemed it necessary to repeatedly ridicule him in a thread that was only related to those debates insofar as it was started by Silks. This is an act of intolerance, an expression of the need to demean someone because they are "on the other side" of an issue, and it cannot be excused on the grounds of perceived transgressions committed by Silks.
When responding to Jonny's Mario Kart Wii review, Deg discussed those that concurred with certain criticisms of the game that he personally did not share, stating "I think more is being said about those people than about Mario Kart." The clear inference to be drawn from this statement is that Deg did not consider the disagreement to be in any sense legitimate, a product of differing points of view. Instead, it was apparently a mere function of deficiencies in the character of those with whom Deg disagreed. Such assurance in one's own superiority could just as easily be ascribed to "hardcore gamers" when they assert that only people of limited intellectual capacity can enjoy a so-called "casual" game.
I make these observations not to slam Deg, but to make the point that "hardcore gamers" do not have a monopoly on the supremacist sentiment that Jeff rightly decries in this context. The folly of the "hardcore gamer" is simply the folly of intolerance itself, and only demonstrates how vital it is to maintain respectful disagreements when we find ourselves at odds with one another over something.
I don't see why reviving past ghosts is necessary, however I don't see, other than the Tecmo Bowl thread, myself as being superior nor having a superior intolerant mindset. The Tecmo Bowl thread (Which, looking back, I accept as being wrong) was the result of weeks of frustration on these boards, watching good threads deteriorate into Definition Warz (where in you state you definition of hardcore and casual games) and List Warz (where in you list a bunch of games you like for a platform) by Lindy stating his thought on Wii-Only gamers and bringing up the PS3 is a Wii Castlevania thread and why it rocks and all that. Then I see Lindy having a thread about Tecmo Bowl and it just clicked. I actually started pacing my room a bit saying to myself "How dare he berate our readers, call them morons, make them feel terrible (I thought), derail threads and then start up a thread about something doesn't fit into the very rigid rule set he just laid down for others?!" And so I took on the role of a hardcore Madden fan and stated Tecmo Bowl as a game for casual babies (I have no opinion either way) and showed him what he'd been doing. I understand that fighting fire with fire leaves your hands burnt, but I had a little fire in my eyes when I was typing. I don't see it as "intolerant" mainly because it was just Lindy I had a beef with and not Tecmo Bowl fans. It endly poorly and I felt bad about it.
I also don't see my remarks regarding Mario Kart being intolerant either. I believe this remark, "I think more is being said about those people than about Mario Kart," was about Jonny stating that it was embarrassing to be defeated in a race by somebody using the Wii Wheel, which he has, in his review, deemed inferior. However, most players do use it, and a lot hold world records and have High VS. Scores, some even at the 9999 limit. It's not like the Wii Wheel is a joke character like Dan from Street Fighter Alpha or JigglyPuff. People have adapted to it and are using it to win. So Jonny, faced with the dilemma of "This control is inferior" and "people are beating me with it," elected to say he felt embarrassed to lose to somebody using it, as if someone just beat him with Dan or JigglyPuff. I didn't say his opinions on Mario Kart Wii didn't mean anything (although in the grand scheme of consumer sales, they apparently didn't), but I sort of felt that part DID speak more about the reviewer than the game. And I didn't see it as a "deficiency" of his character either. It's actually a process a lot of us go through.
And you are correct, Hardcore gamers don't have a monopoly of these feelings, but they do hold the overwhelming majority of opinion-making positions, be they journalists or longtime forum members. And can most assuredly state that they did "start it," and the result is the majority of gamers, be they non-gamers, lapsed-gamers, female games, etc. feel exactly the same way back. But they are more respectful back by not engaging in Label Warz and simply enjoying their Hannah Montanas or Wii Plays (Did you know that game sold 13 million worldwide?) and not giving a care what anybody else plays or who makes what (at least not yet). Hardcore feel slighted that Nintendogs is even successful, that this new audience, comprised of former gamers and non-gamers, gets advertised to and bones thrown their way and focus given to them for a while. It's dichotomous, really.
And as a remark to Pale, it's not that nobody finds fault with Nintendo's E3 show. I personally, thought they maybe shouldn't have had Shaun White Snowboarding there. In fact, they shouldn't have had any lack-of-effort third party games there and I daresay the only reason they had to showcase them is because they've been guilt-tripped into believing that the more Nintendo succeeds on their own platform with effortful, high-quality software, the less third parties can succeed with their effortless, afterthought software. According to behaviorism, Nintendo just reinforced bad behavior. But hopefully third parties will soon have to realize that they need to bring their A-games in order to compete. And just the same, what does an absolutely jawesome E3 show even mean anyway? A lot of people thought Sony won E3 2005, with PS3 movies and PSP games that were assuredly going to wipe the floor with the casual DS. What did that mean in the long run? Not much, apparently.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Deguello on July 26, 2008, 02:51:02 PM
Quote
I'm not an original gamer. I can't be. I wasn't even born yet when Pong or the Atari came out. But when I became a gamer I was interested in videogames. Maybe I initially picked games that hardcore gamers would scoff at and maybe my influence on the market ruined things for them and maybe even as I became more interested in the hobby and became more knowledgeble of it my tastes never reflected their's. But I was interested in videogames. This is a group that IS NOT interested in videogames but is having videogames altered so that they like it. I think that is a HUGE difference. That's never happened before.
Ian, I just don't know how you profess to know what these new gamers are thinking. How do you know that a non-gamer or a lapsed gamer or a child is not interested in video games after playing Nintendogs or Wii Sports or whoever?
I can even prove THEY ARE interested. Mario Kart DS is the best selling version of Mario Kart, ever. Why? Mario Kart Super Circuit on the GBA sold approximately 5.4 million. Mario Kart DS has sold more than twice that. I bet you are going to answer "larger userbase" as the reason. AND WHY IS THAT? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? Could they be the "non-interested" new gamers? Just a thought.
Edit: oops, ehehe double post.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 26, 2008, 11:04:36 PM
Let me just say that I love Nintendogs. I thought it was a great game, if you want to call it that. You run out of stuff to do way too quickly, though. It'd be perfect fodder for an MMOG.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Mario on July 27, 2008, 12:41:13 AM
I disagree about one thing Deg, that's Shaun Whites showing, I think it looks like a good game, and it's a third party game using some new ideas. They got Shaun White himself there too, which was big. Maybe not for us but i'm sure all these people on Shaun White forums were like "oh hey this Wii thing looks aaaaawesome dude".
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Shift Key on July 27, 2008, 12:58:45 AM
They got Shaun White himself there too, which was big. Maybe not for us but i'm sure all these people on Shaun White forums were like "oh hey this Wii thing looks aaaaawesome dude".
That guy has his own forum? That just makes me even sadder about the interwebs.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 28, 2008, 03:47:25 AM
Where did I say that I was embarrassed to lose to someone playing with the Wii Wheel? I don't recall ever writing or saying that and would be interested in reviewing that statement in context if it actually happened.
What I do recall saying about the Wii Wheel is that the online symbol for it is an acknowledgment by Nintendo that it's the least ideal way to control the game. The only reason for that symbol to exist is to let people know that they just lost to a handicapped player. Otherwise, there would be symbols for the Nunchuk, Classic, and GameCube controllers as well for full disclosure to anyone who cares.
I think the game is harder to play with the Wii Wheel, and the symbol by your name (especially the golden one) is a badge from Nintendo that says you are so damn good at Mario Kart that you can dominate even with the burden of a less precise controller. That's not to say that every player who has the golden wheel symbol has a superiority complex or even thinks about such things -- some of them may simply have gotten used to the wheel from the start or don't even realize you have other options.
Having said all that, I don't think the Wii Wheel has anything to do with hardcore vs. casual vs. traditional vs. blue ocean vs. core vs. mainstream gamers.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 28, 2008, 03:50:27 AM
Let me just say that I love Nintendogs. I thought it was a great game, if you want to call it that. You run out of stuff to do way too quickly, though. It'd be perfect fodder for an MMOG.
Agreed. I really enjoyed Nintendogs for about a week. It's truly adorable, immersive, and unique. Sadly, it's also very shallow and repetitive, so I traded it in soon afterwards. I felt sure that Nintendo would follow it up with an improved sequel or spin-off (for cats, perhaps) that would address some of my complaints and secure a permanent spot in my game library, but it still hasn't happened.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Deguello on July 28, 2008, 04:29:07 AM
Quote
In fact, Nintendo themselves have indicated which players online are handicapped by the wheel – and yes, it's extra demeaning to be defeated by these people.
This is the quote in question from your review, Jonny. It's kind of hard not to read it that way. You note that the control method is a handicap and then say it is demeaning to lose to them. And "demean" is a direct synonym for "embarrass."
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Mario on July 28, 2008, 04:37:07 AM
There's always like one guy in the 12 player room without the wheel and I just feel sorry for them. It's a FACT that it's more precise (I proved this in a previous post somewhere), the only handicap in the game is the fun handicap placed upon non wheel users.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 28, 2008, 05:28:12 AM
Team Reggie knows precision.
Team Reggie knows fun.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Shift Key on July 28, 2008, 05:57:48 AM
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 28, 2008, 01:33:58 PM
That's a regrettable sentence on my part. As you note, it's self-contradicting and, in hindsight, doesn't capture how I really feel about the game now. But I have a personal policy of not changing published reviews except to correct factual statements.
Anyhow, I'm not getting dragged into another argument about why the wheel is good/bad. You guys keep having fun online, however you choose to play.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Morari on July 29, 2008, 11:01:47 AM
Man, I just saw this... I thankfully only fall into the first category though! I do want a good 2D Castlevania game to hit home consoles. Heck, I want all kinds of good 2D games! And certainly Blizzard's WoW-esque art direction with Diablo III came as quite a surprise. With pretty much the entirety of the original development team gone however, one has to worry about the outcome of that game in general.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 29, 2008, 12:59:22 PM
At least that way, Diablo won't go stale.
Unlike Zelda.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: NWR_Neal on July 29, 2008, 02:50:42 PM
There's always like one guy in the 12 player room without the wheel and I just feel sorry for them. It's a FACT that it's more precise (I proved this in a previous post somewhere), the only handicap in the game is the fun handicap placed upon non wheel users.
Its funny, because I have noticed the opposite. The majority of people I play online don't use the Wheel. Regardless of it technically being more precise, it is all a matter of personal preference. I will continue using Wii Remote/Nunchuk, and others will use the Wheel or the Gamecube controller.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Halbred on July 29, 2008, 03:38:32 PM
Well, what do you call somebody like me?
1) Raised on the Atari and NES (and old arcade cabinets); 2) Once loathed the Genesis and PS1, now only loath the Genesis controller and the PS1's graphical hardware; 3) Really, really liked Primal Rage; 4) Branched out to other systems once I realized that Nintendo Power was essentially a propoganda publication; 5) I love my PS2, PSP, and PS3; 6) GOD, I love my PS3; 7) I don't think you understand. It's like a box filled with sugar-coated joy. My Wii adopts a submissive posture whenever the PS3 is turned on; 8) I still love my SNES, N64, Wii, and Dreamcast, and play them all regularly; 9) And my DS and GBA; 10) 90% of the T-shirts in my T-shirt drawer are gaming-related; 11) And yet I hate Hot Topic. I only go in there for new shirts; 12) I would rather give my money to a blind monkey than GameStop; 13) I wear sweatpants all the time. Even at work; 14) Did I mention that my PS3 is soft to the touch, like the skin of a newborn babe?
15) Above all, I am open to virtually every kind of gaming experience there is, and my gamer soul knows no brand loyalty. I enjoy both old and new games, and I think all three companies managed to sleep-walk through E3 this year.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on July 29, 2008, 03:43:48 PM
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 29, 2008, 10:07:00 PM
I don't joke around.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 30, 2008, 04:12:40 AM
Okay, everyone is missing the most important factor of Halbred's post. Sweatpants all the time is unacceptable. Most of the time they are unacceptable. Jerry, what do you have to say on the subject?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Hbu4Z4pGI
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Shift Key on July 30, 2008, 06:25:41 AM
Okay, everyone is missing the most important factor of Halbred's post. Sweatpants all the time is unacceptable. Most of the time they are unacceptable. Jerry, what do you have to say on the subject?
Lets just say sweatpants are unacceptable full stop and leave it at that. Jerry doesn't deserve the right to defend himself.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 30, 2008, 07:03:57 PM
I agree. At least wear jeans, man! Sweatpants should be outlawed...they aren't even necessary when you're jogging.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 30, 2008, 07:18:16 PM
Sweatpants are acceptable only in situations that would cause a person to sweat.
...situations that would cause a NORMAL HEALTHY person to sweat. If walking from the computer to the fridge and back makes you sweat it doesn't count.
Hot girls are also allowed to wear sweatpants. I'm surprised all of you "sweatpants are never okay" guys aren't taking that into account.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 30, 2008, 07:54:15 PM
I agree with Ian, hot girls wearing sweats is hot.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Stogi on July 30, 2008, 08:08:42 PM
Pshhh....Your living in the past, my friends. Girls don't wear sweatpants any more. They wear these tight elastic pants that only go as far the shins, and might I say, are quite revealing. :o
THEY'RE WAY BETTER THAN SWEAT PANTS.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 30, 2008, 09:16:23 PM
How about people where clothes they feel most comfortable in. What a concept.
DISCRIMINATION AGAINST NUDISTS!
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 31, 2008, 09:00:16 AM
This discussion needs more nipples.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 31, 2008, 11:42:01 AM
falcon paunch.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Halbred on July 31, 2008, 02:44:14 PM
JEANS
- Tight-fitting, relatively uncomfortable - Can't get wallet out of pocket while sitting down - Can't get cell phone out of pocket while in car - Must be "broken in"
Sweatpants
- Loose-fitting, comfortable - Loose pockets allows wearer to reach into pockets anytime - Drawstring allows instant waist-fitting modifications - Wearable right out of the store--none of this "breaking in" crap
I'm wearing sweatpants right now. I only have three pairs of jeans, but I have four or five pairs of sweats. SWEATPANTS 4EVR!
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: vudu on July 31, 2008, 02:46:33 PM
You forgot that sweatpants make you look fat, undesirable and generally retarded. Those are important bullet points!
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on July 31, 2008, 02:51:55 PM
- Tight-fitting, relatively uncomfortable - Can't get wallet out of pocket while sitting down - Can't get cell phone out of pocket while in car - Must be "broken in"
I have discovered the true source of your problem.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 31, 2008, 03:22:37 PM
I don't even own jeans, khakis all the way. Jeans constrict the package too much.
Title: Re: How to spot a Hardcore Gamer in the Wild.
Post by: Stogi on July 31, 2008, 05:26:12 PM
How about people where clothes they feel most comfortable in. What a concept.
Girls can do what ever they want. We're just analyzing what they do wear.
And Stogi, I've always despised capri's till the end of time. So I hate those damn things.
I do like the baggier version that flare at the end though, they aren't bad.
Yo....they're not capris. They are basically half a liatard. They are much more flattering than a capri. I'm sure you've seen them. Girls where them out all the time under a dress.
