Community Forums => I'M BACK => Topic started by: Khushrenada on March 12, 2008, 01:26:10 AM
Title: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 12, 2008, 01:26:10 AM
Argh! Stupid server.
Alright. Time for me to gripe. I don't know how the rest of the players are finding this game but man, I am not hosting a mafia game fore awhile. Too much to deal with.
First of all, we have the leak of mafia name so roles have to be re-set. Then I have to start answering lots of questions about roles. Nothing unusual except many of the questions are complicated. I thought thatguy had a complicated game but holy, this has got to be second place if not first.
I have to deal with Wandering's scandal.
My computer has had some stupid virus on it for the past week which causes the internet to get redirected to ad sites every time you try to load a page. Trying to load NWR means I get redirected to ads twice before it finally directs me correctly. So, then I can't get on the internet because my brother is helping get rid of the virus.
I'm staying up late and the lack of sleep is starting to catch up to me though that's just minor and something that happens every time I host. I thought I'd have more time for hosting and looking after things and at times I have. I've tried to get on during the day when I was able to get a moment to quickly answer any questions I had. But, I find my schedule is getting busy again and these late nights are getting harder.
And now, the stupid server rendered the website unavailable for awhile so now I'm behind on the story I'm not even sure anyone's following. Not to mention the time I lost my argument post against GP. I kinda liked it to. Was curious how she'd respond. Woulda been nice to have a little side battle going on as a chance to release some pent up rage. Still bugs me as you can see.
Ah well. It's nice to take this opportunity to unload my frustrations and let you see the fun I'm having behind the scenes. Anyways, since I think this will be my last hosting for awhile (not forever but I'm defintely going to plan my schedule better for any future hostings) I still intend to complete my story as stupid as it is. And I still have a little something planned for when the game is wrapped up.
So, please, bear with me in these delays of story. Although the story is delayed, I won't let it delay the game.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 12, 2008, 01:35:25 AM
Details:
Thatguy was killed by vote. Thatguy was The Bounty Hunter.
Athrun Zala was hit by the Mafia. Athrun Zala survived because Athrun Zala has Gambler's Luck.
Bill D-7 was rejected yesterday.
Bill D-8 is as follows:
So you all didn't want my help in voting out the remaining members of the mafia? Well let's see how this bill fits you. For starters if the last two standing are the remaining mafia member and myself, we both win, no one else. Also I would like the ability to kill one person still playing after the ratification of this bill. If you think that is not enough I am also proposing a 2 for 1 sale on thermal detonators for the rest of the game.
If you want to live for another day I think you better get back to ratifying these bills I propose to you.
You Beloved Senator
Voting time is the same as yesterday.
First actions due by 11:00 pm EST Voting Ends - Midnight EST. Final actions due by 12:30 am EST.
Finally, there was some questions in the night about getting rid of someone with the Force Rebound ability. There is one way to do it that I knew of but it's up to you to figure out. However, one townie has found another way to do it that I never realized. A rule loophole if you will. This is what I mean about the game being complicated. So, this game is not quite over yet.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 12, 2008, 01:45:46 AM
THATGUY was the BOUNTYHUNTER?!?!
That means there's a bountyhunter's apprentice then. Hmm. Hey Khush, the apprentice, he starts at 0 points right?
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 12, 2008, 02:12:39 AM
The way I view the Apprentice would be like the Suicide Bomber and Suicide Bomber Apprentice of Mafia 6. Now, I'm not saying that I'm the apprentice. I'll assure everyone right now, I have no role except to host. But, according to the rules of that game, the Suicide Bomber Apprentice would not blow everyone up if killed before the regular Suicide Bomber. Only if the regular bomber was blown up would the Apprentice Bomber then have the ability to do the same.
Likewise, the Bounty Hunter Apprentice gets no points from the previous Bounty Hunter's stash. He has to build up his own. Nor was he able to collect any bounty from the regular bounty hunters hits or have points given to him. The only scenario I that would allow the Apprentice to have points is if he had the Bounty Hunter role at one time and collected some points and then had the role taken away from him. Since he doesn't lose his points from the switch, he still has them. Thus, if he was made Bounty Hunter Apprentice, he would still have points. Since the regular Bounty Hunter died, he has in effect taken his place and become the Regular Bounty Hunter. He is no longer the Apprentice and so all the power of the Bounty Hunter is his now. (The ordering of hits and collecting of points and spending of points.)
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Spak-Spang on March 12, 2008, 10:16:45 AM
.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: bustin98 on March 12, 2008, 11:07:22 AM
Dear Senator,
Its time for the Republic to become more democratic. Here's a proposition for you.
Let's take what you suggested yesterday, but turn it into a people's choice. You may have your extra vote during the day and select whom you would like to vote off. No one else gets an extra vote. But three others have to agree to the vote and the selection. Those three others have to be specific and known townie roles. Those three can change due to circumstances in the game but will remain constant for as long as they are alive. Everything must be decided in PMs. The three will not know who the others are. This bill will be null and void if a townie is voted for in the extra vote. The bill will also be void if there are not enough townie roles to fulfill the requirements. If one member of the committee reveals the identities of the others the bill is void and the offending member loses his normal vote and powers for one day.
The mafia will gain Force Insight and will be told if a target is an extra voter.
Only townies get to vote because the Mafia does not pay taxes and no representation without taxation.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: NuclearSpeed on March 12, 2008, 11:49:38 AM
I am going to follow what I started yesterday and vote with Spak so today before some explaning comes along i will Vote Kairon
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: vudu on March 12, 2008, 02:06:11 PM
Not sure what to do yet. I think I'll sit back for now and see how the day pans out.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: bustin98 on March 12, 2008, 03:07:25 PM
I'm changing my vote for now.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 12, 2008, 05:24:58 PM
This definitely is a very interesting situation. There's still a mafia person, the senator has force rebound, and the bounty hunter's apprentice is up. What complicates it further is that the apprentice could be a townie since he was chosen after some investigations... hmmm... I'll send out my information to everyone in a few hours. Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 12, 2008, 08:31:30 PM
Please, all townies hold your votes until further information from myself. Repeat, DO NOT VOTE until you get in contact with me.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 12, 2008, 10:18:40 PM
If any townies have any questions, you can always IM me, don't forget!
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 13, 2008, 12:02:08 AM
Well, voting has ended. Now it's time to set-up a discussion about the interpretation of the rules and roles. Wonderful.
Final Tally:
Kairon - 1
However, due to the power of the Jedi Mind Trick, Nuclearspeed's vote has been changed to himself thus Nuclearspeed has been voted out.
Now, here's where it gets dicey.
Nuclearspeed has been protected by Force Rebound. According to the rules of Force Rebound, the power works this way:
The player who is able to execute the force rebound is one is able to deflect the attack of his opponent and send the attack back to the one who sent it. For instance, if this player was voted out, he would be able to survive and choose someone who voted for him to replace him. Thus, they recieve the attack of getting voted out. Likewise, if he was the target of a mafia hit, the hit would deflect from him back to the person trying to carry it out.
So, Nuclearspeed has survived the vote and the vote is rebounded back to someone who voted for him. However, the only person to vote for Nuclearspeed was Nuclearspeed, thanks to the Jedi Mind Trick. Therefore, the choice has been made for him, Nuclearspeed is the recipient of his own rebound.
But wait, it says choose someone. What if he chooses no one? Well, that's the interesting thing. I don't say he "may" choose someone nor do I say he "must" choose someone. The only reason there is a choice in the first place is in the event that multiple people voted for the player with Force Rebound. Then, as a benefit of that power, the player with Force Rebound is given the opportunity to get revenge on one of his opponents. But, let's say that only Kairon had voted today for Nuclearspeed. With Force Rebound Kairon would be dead. There would be no choice because there was only one person who voted for Nuclearspeed so there is only one person the vote could be redirected towards, in that case, Kairon. So, it is the same situation here. There is only one choice for the vote rebound and that is Nuclearspeed who ended up voting for himself.
Moreover, this isn't a perpetual rebound where Nuclearspeed forever keeps rebounding the vote because he has force rebound. Notice again what the role says:
The player who is able to execute the force rebound is one is able to deflect the attack of his opponent and send the attack back to the one who sent it. For instance, if this player was voted out, he would be able to survive and choose someone who voted for him to replace him. Thus, they recieve the attack of getting voted out. Likewise, if he was the target of a mafia hit, the hit would deflect from him back to the person trying to carry it out.
In all cases listed, the any attack that has been rebounded is carried out against whoever it rebounded to, the person who sent it. Therefore, since Nuclearspeed carried out the attack against himself in this case, the attack is rebounded to the one who sent it, Nuclearspeed and it is carried out against that person. So, the rebound attack is carried out against Nuclearspeed.
Why wouldn't the attack rebound to the player with Jedi Mind Trick? After all, his role says:
With this ability, a person is able to cancel another player's vote and replace it with a vote of his own.
So, it is his own vote, therefore he is the one who is really voting for Nuclearspeed. I'll admit, this is the biggest area someone could make a case against this ruling. But, let me explain it this way. Let's say a player with Jedi Mind Trick cancelled Khushrenada's vote and made him vote Thatguy instead. Two other people also vote Thatguy and Thatguy is voted out. But thatguy has Force Rebound and can redirect it against someone who voted for him. So, he would be given a choice of people to rebound the vote to. So, does that mean the player who's vote was changed by the Jedi Mind Trick would be eligable? No, he would not be listed. That vote is secret and is meant to be kept secret. The only reason it is being revealed today is because it has to be.
We had one situation earlier where the vote was a tie but because of the Jedi Mind Trick the Tie was broken. It was not revealed who's vote was cancelled and changed. In fact, it was the First vote with Dasmos and he had Force Rebound and he was not told who had their vote changed as a choice to kill showing there is a precedence for this to occur.
So, if we don't show the person who's vote was cancelled and changed, should the player with Jedi Mind Trrick be listed as a choice since he was the one who ulimately cast the vote? Again no. Obviously, if one had a list of choices and a name came up of someone who didn't vote for them, the player with Jedi Mind Trick would have their identity blown and may be killed because of that. And if that were to be the case, it would go against the whole point of the role. Being able to secretly and silently influence the vote a bit in your favor.
And again, the precedent was set in this game already in the Dasmos vote. The player with Jedi Mind Trick was not listed as a choice to kill in the vote rebound because of the secret vote he cast. I will admit that he was included as a choice but that's because he voted for Dasmos publicly and not because of his secret extra vote.
So, that is how the day's action turned out. This is what I meant about tough confusing rulings. You may argue things because of the letter of the law such as stating the Jedi Mind Trick Power says his own vote meaning the vote is his but my ruling is based on the spirit of the law and how I concieved the roles as working.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 13, 2008, 12:04:20 AM
Well, here we go.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 13, 2008, 12:32:40 AM
So, the way I read it, NuclearSpeed is dead.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: NuclearSpeed on March 13, 2008, 12:37:55 AM
Shouldn't the Jedi Mind Trick never happen in the first place because of Force Rebound?? That should redirect the Jedi Mind Trick back upon the one with the Trick thus causing their own vote, which is none in this case being changed??
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 13, 2008, 12:43:23 AM
Wow. An even better arguement has just emerged.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 13, 2008, 12:44:58 AM
Alright. Give me a moment. I will be back in 20 minutes.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 13, 2008, 12:46:32 AM
Shouldn't the Jedi Mind Trick never happen in the first place because of Force Rebound?? That should redirect the Jedi Mind Trick back upon the one with the Trick thus causing their own vote, which is none in this case being changed??
No, Khush already ruled on this earlier in the game. The Jedi Mind Trick was used on a player with force rebound affecting him, Dasmos, and Dasmos was not given the mind-tricker's name. In fact, in that case, the mind trick did not reflect back on the mind-tricker. If force rebound did not reflect the mind-trick in that situation, it won't have done that in this one.
Additionally, the Force rebound refers to reflecting attacks, and jedi mind trick is not an attack. It's a trick.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: NuclearSpeed on March 13, 2008, 12:54:37 AM
Shouldn't the Jedi Mind Trick never happen in the first place because of Force Rebound?? That should redirect the Jedi Mind Trick back upon the one with the Trick thus causing their own vote, which is none in this case being changed??
No, Khush already ruled on this earlier in the game. The Jedi Mind Trick was used on a player with force rebound affecting him, Dasmos, and Dasmos was not given the mind-tricker's name. In fact, in that case, the mind trick did not reflect back on the mind-tricker. If force rebound did not reflect the mind-trick in that situation, it won't have done that in this one.
But Dasmos wasn't the one targeted with the Mind Trick, a vote was changed to vote him out and he didn't get the name of the changed vote or the Mind Trick person, he had to choose between who had voted for him in the thread to rebound back to.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 13, 2008, 12:57:28 AM
Additionally, the Force Rebound refers to reflecting attacks, and jedi mind trick is not an attack. It's a trick.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Spak-Spang on March 13, 2008, 12:58:31 AM
The Jedi Mind Trick isn't an attack though. It is a change of vote...the attack comes from being voted out.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 13, 2008, 01:01:32 AM
Jedi Mind Trick is exactly the sort of thing that great master's of the force would acknowledge the power of: wisdom instead of violence, subtlety instead of power. It isn't disrupting Force Rebound at all. It doesn't nullify it, disrupt it, remove it, destroy it or anything. It doesn't act on the player per se, it acts on their vote.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 13, 2008, 02:26:59 AM
Here's the big problem with the game.
I already allowed a Jedi Mind Trick to occur on a person who was was using Force Rebound on themselves. The Day 1 vote. Dasmos vote was changed to vote for himself, Dasmos. And I counted it as a way to break the tie. To me, that was the main purpose of the Jedi Mind Trick. To either break ties or nullify a vote.
Yet, that was an error on my part. That vote changed probably shouldn't have happened. In my rules, I list Force Manipulation as the only ability that can disrupt Force Rebound meaning it is the only action or power that can stop it. With Force Rebound prevented, any other action could then take place against the player with Force Rebound. You can argue that Force Balance isn't an attack yet Force Rebound prevents a Force Balance from taking away that power.
Unfortunately, I'm kind of stuck in a damned if I do, damned if I don't kind of situation. Day 1 was hectic trying to get everyone up to speed on their new roles due to the switch and I had to keep waiting all day for the mafia to choose a godfather. Technically, the Jedi Master and the player with Force Rebound were supposed to tell me what their action was to be before the game started. Meaning if they wanted to protect someone on day 1, they were to tell me before I posted the first day. But since day 1 got delayed due to my schedule and then the mafia roles getting revealed, I decided to quickly post Day 1 and get the ball rolling. This allowed those players to send in their actions later in the day. A privilege they would never get again. So, why am I bringing this up.
Simply put, I made a mistake. A dumb error on Day 1 and I've never realized it until now. By allowing the Jedi Mind Trick to occur, I never thought about it being rebounded until now when Nuclearspeed brought it up. It's just so obvious that I should have realized it from Day 1. The problem is, I was so focused on the vote being rebounded, I never thought about the vote change action as being an issue. Dasmos wasn't going to die from the vote so what do I care if his vote gets changed to himself to break the tie. Yet, I realize now that anything except Force Manipulation should have been rebounded.
One could almost make the arguement that this changes the whole game. What would have happened if Dasmos never won the vote and Force Rebounded a player? So, I'll admit I may have screwed up the game from the beginning. It's hard to say if it would have made a huge impact in the end with the way things went but there it is.
But, likewise, I was so caught up in how Nuclearspeed would rebound the vote that I never realized the Jedi Mind Trick should get rebounded in the first place.
Now, the best part is, I was just arguing about precedents set in the game. I just gave the precedent of the power of the Jedi Mind Trick working against Force Rebound. So, if I allowed to occur once, must I allow it to occur again? If I don't, then what happens to the start of the game?
And now there is the matter of what is an attack and what isn't. In the roles, every role touches on the power of Force Rebound and how it affects it except for three. Force Lightning, Force Insight and Jedi Mind Trick. In the case of Force Lightning, that is seen as an attack and since it takes away a person's power for the day. If Force Balance can not take away a protected Force Rebound player's power, why should Force Lightning be able to. Not to mention, I also list Force Manipulation as the only power that can disrupt Force Rebound.
Yet, what about the other two? For instance, Insight could be used against a player with Force Rebound to learn their identity. Is that an attack? Should it have been repelled? Interestingly, the player with Future Forseen could not find out who is being protected by Force Rebound. The reason for that being to prevent the mafia from learning the identity of the Force Rebound player since they would presumably be protecting themselves for awhile. Yet, Future Forseen is not really an attack. Why can't the mafia find out who has the power if the townies with Force Insight can?
Yet, the biggest reason why the Jedi Mind Trick should be allowed is here:
I never listed that the Jedi Mind Trick would get repelled by Force Rebound. I only mentioned attacks or things that would cause death. If a vote change wouldn't cause death, should it still go through? The vote change is really a role that is supposed to break ties. This was brought out in the rules under ties. So, since there was no tie, should I even care about the changed vote? After all, aside from this situation, the role is quite useless if not breaking a tie. Moreover, why should only one vote be repelled? Why not all the votes cast against the player with Force Rebound. Why wait until all the votes are cast and then choose one of the voters to die from a vote rebound? Since I know who is going to be protected that day, why not say at the start you can't vote for this person?
Simply put, to add an element of surprise. To vote a person out only to learn they get revenge due to their protection. As well, to change up voting habits. If other votes are not being blocked, then the Jedi Mind Trick should be able to work also since it adds to that surprise.
The Force Rebound is a glorified doctor who is able to not only protect from an attack but return it. Yet, in other games, if the protected player got his vote changed, wouldn't it still count? Or would the player be protected from that too? Probably not. So, shouldn't a vote change count here?
These are the questions I've pondered and I'm ready to make my ruling.
The Ruling
Due to precedence and the way I forsaw the Jedi Mind Trick working, I would have to let the Mind Trick crack the defenses of the Force Rebound player and change his vote. If I'd allow it in a tie situation, which was supposed to be the purpose of the role, to break ties whether a player tied had rebound or not, then I must allow it to occur when there is no tie. In this case, changing the only vote cast.
However, due to the fact that this information was missing to most players including the player with Force Rebound, the entire day is null and void. It's a do-over day. And why not? We already had to do-over handing out the roles. Plus, I cite Mafia 5. One day ended in a tie and since there was no rule about resolving a tie, nothing happened that day and it was played out again. Likewise, with the clarification of roles due to rules that were missing about them, Day 8 will be a do-over also.
I recognize this may be of frustration to some players who seized upon this realization that the Jedi Mind Trick gambit could work and I apologize for that. That was my fault. I never thought about what the players with Force Rebound no doubt thought, that all actions against them were repelled except for Force Manipulation. Because of that, the player with Force Rebound was also led down the wrong path concerning his role and not given accurate knowledge of the roles and how they could affect him.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 13, 2008, 02:33:38 AM
ARGH!!!
T_T
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 13, 2008, 02:56:27 AM
Kairon had orginally posted this:
I don't believe that just because someone misunderstands the rules they should be given a do-over. The rules were there for us to ask questions about, and it was our responsibility to do that. If we acted on incorrect pretenses, then the responsibility was on us to have sought you out before and to rectify that. This is what I did and what the senator should have done. I really believe that this should NOT be a do-over event Khush! ^_^
Here's why it should be a do-over.
When the game started, I was asked questions by both the Original Force Rebound player and the Jedi Master questions about their protection ability. I told the Jedi Master:
You would be protected by all attacks unless force Manipulation was used on you to render you powerless.
In answer to a question from the Original Force Rebound player I said:
Let's say you choose to protect Khushrenada as your order today. That means, Khushrenada is protected all Day and night for Day 2 unless Force Manipulation was played on you ruining your power. Then, before Day 2 ends, you send me your order for the next day, Day 3. So, if you choose yourself, you would then be protected all Day 3 and all night for Day 3.
Notice that in both cases, I only mention Force Manipulation as stopping their power. I never mention that they could be affected by the Mind Trick also. Other people asked me questions also what could be done to stop a player with Force Rebound and my only answer was to hit them when they weren't protecting themselves. Heck, the player with the Jedi Mind Trick ability never asked me if his ability would work against a player with Force Rebound. Either he just assumed it did or he assumed it didn't, I don't know.
But he never came up with the idea of using his ability to get rid of the Force Rebound player, only you did and that was because I wouldn't tell you the only way I could see the townies stopping the player with Force Rebound. There is another way besides the Jedi Mind Trick. It just has long odds of success.
Finally, I should mention this so that everyone is clear on the Jedi Mind Trick role. He has the ability to cancel a vote and replace it with his own. So, what happens if someone doesn't vote? Can he still switch that vote. The answer is yes. The ability was set-up to allow him to change anyone's vote. Even someone who hasn't voted. What this role does is effectively block a person from voting their way (cancelling the vote) and have them vote the way he wants. (Replacing it with his own.) Likewise, a person who doesn't vote is blocked from voting their way (cancelling their no vote) and have them vote the way he wants. (Replacing their non-vote with his own.)
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 13, 2008, 03:16:53 AM
Voting time is the same as yesterday.
First actions due by 11:00 pm EST Voting Ends - Midnight EST. Final actions due by 12:30 am EST.
All votes cast from this post onward count as part of the Day 8 Re-Do. Any votes above this post or in past posts are considered null and void.
G'Night all.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 13, 2008, 12:50:46 PM
Are we still using this thread? Townies, remember that you can always PM me if you have any questions.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: that Baby guy on March 13, 2008, 01:32:11 PM
So then, if I understand correctly, the force-rebounded player is still protected from Jedi Mind-Trick, right?
Was I protected by GP? That lasts until the vote ends, if I was, right?
If I become the Jedi-Master, and I last a day with the ability, long enough to protect myself, at this point, providing the rules don't change, would I be invincible as long as I renewed the power at this point, and so long as Force Balance doesn't come into play?
To win, I have to be the only player remaining, correct?
If the Jedi Master was force balanced tonight, he'll still be able to use today's ability, right?
You are not protected by GP. She was killed last night thereby keeping her from sending out protection in the morning.
Not sure how you would get the Jedi Master abilities without switching your role or making a proposal asking for them. For instance, if you had someone Force Balance you and the Jedi Master and the Jedi Master didn't use Force Rebound on himself, you and him would trade roles. He would become the Senator and you would become the Jedi Master.
Currently, you have to be the last person standing. However, if it is just you and a townie, I might have to come up with a different way to resolve the situation since the vote would end in a tie. Of course, you could always try to find a way to change your win position in the bill.
If the Jedi Master was force balanced tonight, he would still be able to use his power. The reason it works for him and not with GP is because he is still alive and because of the priority of actions. Death happens at night. Force Balance and Rebound and investigation results occur after the new day is posted.
Much more difficult to kill a force rebound player but still possible. For instance, the force rebound player must tell me every night who is being protected before the next day. They are stuck with that protection for the next day. So, if they protect someone else but are hit themselves, then they will die.
As well, Force Balance could move the Force Rebound role to someone else. Since that person would have to wait a day in order to start using the power, that person would be vulnerable for a day.
Force Lightning. The order is sent to me every night. The person chosen to be hit by Force Lightning is struck the next day and posted the next day. Like what happened to Crimm.
A player with hit by Force Lightning can still have his role stolen. All force lightning does is make him powerless.
Essentially, the plan to live permanently by continuous force rebound was made on the fifth, and received further confirmation on the sixth. This was understood, as far as I can tell, by Khush to be my goal, and he never defined Jedi Mind-Trick as a risk to a rebounded person. The only weakness to a rebounded player is force manipulation and if he or she chooses not to protect his or her self, which is the way both Dasmos and GP died. To disallow a plan that was in effect so early in the game is unfair, since the townies knew the senator had the ability and voted on it himself. Day one was iffy, because commands were not in on time, and you admit, Khush, you made some mistakes with priority. Though there was precedence, if you abide by precedence, then Dasmos should not have died from the hit that both the mafia and the bounty hunter targetted him with, so the game, from day three onward would be null.
Players knew their abilities before hand, and had time to send in their actions before day one started, yet you still accepted them when day one was in progress, setting an incorrect precedence that you did not follow at a later date, for instance, when Insanolord PM'ed his ability a few minutes late, you did not accept that, and ignored what he asked you to do. That's once that you denied precedence, in addition to Dasmos's death. You've admitted you made a mistake in precedence, and rather than correcting your mistake now, you've instead gone and changed the rules, which I had a plan based off of for the majority of this game. Force Balance is not an attack, yet it is reflected. Investigation is not an attack, yet it is reflected. The use of Jedi Mind-Trick has been as an attack, yet now, all of a sudden, because of an early game mistake, the rules have been altered. I made certain to be clear on the rules of Force Rebound before I made a bill about the ability, and no where, no where at all, was Jedi Mind-Trick considered a risk. Just like with Force Balance, the ability should be rebounded, and the user should be forced to vote the way he or she wanted to force someone else to vote, since that what the nearest scenario in the rules implied. Yes, you made a mistake on day one, but by doling out this ruling, you're punishing players who have made plans based on the written status quo. I'll be fine with your ruling if Spak or anyone else was planning to use Jedi Mind-Trick on the senator ever since that bill was written and shown to everyone. If that's the case, then you all are more clever in this game than I give you credit for. However, I'll need proof that you had a contigency plan for my plan from that point, otherwise, this ruling hurts the proactive, plan making player, and praises those that have foolishly acted on something without looking to the disadvantages brought with it.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: vudu on March 13, 2008, 03:04:03 PM
Holy Christ on a stick. I'm not reading all this. Can someone let me know (in 5 sentences or less) what the Hell happened since last night?
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 13, 2008, 03:31:02 PM
Thatguy, it is not the game master's responsibility to provide to players all the ways in which they can die. It is up to them to figure out the weakness in their own plans. A lack of due diligence on the part of the player to explore all possibilities is their fault, not the game master's.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: wandering on March 13, 2008, 04:58:56 PM
Khush:
You've revealed nuclearspeed's role, and nuclearspeed is now a living player. The last time the roles of living players were revealed, the game was reset. Consequently, the game should be reset once again.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: vudu on March 13, 2008, 05:03:01 PM
He "revealed" something we already knew. That's why day eight part one went down like it did. Revealed, nothing was.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 13, 2008, 05:32:29 PM
You've revealed nuclearspeed's role, and nuclearspeed is now a living player. The last time the roles of living players were revealed, the game was reset. Consequently, the game should be reset once again.
But the senator may have cast Force Balance on NuclearSpeed. There's no revelations here, only suspicions.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: wandering on March 13, 2008, 06:17:29 PM
I interpret this to mean nuclearspeed was the originator:
Essentially, the plan to live permanently by continuous force rebound was made on the fifth, and received further confirmation on the sixth. This was understood, as far as I can tell, by Khush to be my goal, and he never defined Jedi Mind-Trick as a risk to a rebounded person. The only weakness to a rebounded player is force manipulation and if he or she chooses not to protect his or her self, which is the way both Dasmos and GP died. To disallow a plan that was in effect so early in the game is unfair, since the townies knew the senator had the ability and voted on it himself. Day one was iffy, because commands were not in on time, and you admit, Khush, you made some mistakes with priority. Though there was precedence, if you abide by precedence, then Dasmos should not have died from the hit that both the mafia and the bounty hunter targetted him with, so the game, from day three onward would be null.
Players knew their abilities before hand, and had time to send in their actions before day one started, yet you still accepted them when day one was in progress, setting an incorrect precedence that you did not follow at a later date, for instance, when Insanolord PM'ed his ability a few minutes late, you did not accept that, and ignored what he asked you to do. That's once that you denied precedence, in addition to Dasmos's death. You've admitted you made a mistake in precedence, and rather than correcting your mistake now, you've instead gone and changed the rules, which I had a plan based off of for the majority of this game. Force Balance is not an attack, yet it is reflected. Investigation is not an attack, yet it is reflected. The use of Jedi Mind-Trick has been as an attack, yet now, all of a sudden, because of an early game mistake, the rules have been altered. I made certain to be clear on the rules of Force Rebound before I made a bill about the ability, and no where, no where at all, was Jedi Mind-Trick considered a risk. Just like with Force Balance, the ability should be rebounded, and the user should be forced to vote the way he or she wanted to force someone else to vote, since that what the nearest scenario in the rules implied. Yes, you made a mistake on day one, but by doling out this ruling, you're punishing players who have made plans based on the written status quo. I'll be fine with your ruling if Spak or anyone else was planning to use Jedi Mind-Trick on the senator ever since that bill was written and shown to everyone. If that's the case, then you all are more clever in this game than I give you credit for. However, I'll need proof that you had a contigency plan for my plan from that point, otherwise, this ruling hurts the proactive, plan making player, and praises those that have foolishly acted on something without looking to the disadvantages brought with it.
You are still reading the situation wrong. When Dasmos was killed Day 3, his Day 3 action was an investigation, he had no protection that day. His death was legitimate. So, the game is not null from day 3.
As for letting people send in actions on Day 1, I told everyone that needed to send in their actions a day early that it was a one-time thing. Insanolord had Force Balance. With that power, he had to send the action to me an hour before the voting deadline. I warned everyone when the action deadline's were and I posted them in the Quick Sheet. The Force Balance player was never a person who had to send in an action before the game began unlike a Force Rebound player or the mafia's decision of who should be Godfather. So, if he sent in an action late, it was his fault and had nothing to do with the actions I let come in late on Day 1. So, your argument about precedence doesn't work here.
Force Balance is reflected, Force Insight is not and that's why I mentioned that in my post of questions I pondered. Why isn't Insight reflected also? If Insight could break through the Force Rebound, why can't one vote change?
Your right that I never said the Jedi Mind Trick was an attack but I also never forsaw a situation like this a rising where it really could be used for a kill. In this case, the attack is changing the player's vote to themselves. Yet, as I stated, what about people who vote publicly for the player with Force Rebound? Isn't that an attack to kill the player by the vote? Shouldn't those votes have rebounded back to them? For that matter, why not just say so and so has been protected by Force Rebound so you can't vote for them and prevent such an attack. Moreover, is the vote change really an attack or is it getting voted out that is the attack? If a vote was a runaway and the Jedi Mind Trick changed the Force Rebound player's vote even though it did nothing to change the end result of the vote, is that an attack?
The way the plan was presented to me was that the attack (getting voted out) would be rebounded back to the player with Force Rebound since he would end up voting for himself. There was no rule about preventing one's own attack from being rebounded back on to them. The question is which is an attack, changing a vote or getting voted out or both.
Let me ask you this thayguy, let's go back to the Toruresu vote. I think it was 7 votes in his favor and no else had a vote. Let's say that you had Force Rebound and you protected yourself and voted Toruresu. Meanwhile, the player with Jedi Mind Trick changes your vote to yourself. Would you care? Should the end results say Toruresu 6 votes, Thatguy 1 vote. That way people know who the Jedi Mind Trick player used his power on. Or if the vote was Rebounded, Toruresu 6, Jedi Mind Trick - 1. Now that player has just found someone with Force Rebound. Is it neccessary? Let's say it was a tie between two people with Force Rebound. The player with Jedi Mind Trick can't break the tie then. Why bother with making this role then? At least it would let the vote rebound to one player instead of the vote rebounding twice against two people.
There's too many cases where I wouldn't consider the Jedi Mind Trick an attack. If it's not an attack, then I'd allow it. If it is allowed in all those other cases, then it should rightfully be allowed now. You say I'm changing the rules but where in the rules does it say the Force Rebound reflects the Jedi Mind Trick? I know, you could argue where in the rules does it say Force Rebound doesn't deflect the JMT? That's the point. That's why we are at this issue of clarification.
Not to mention that there has never been a case in the game where with 9 people left there is only one vote cast. For that matter even in games where there was 3 people left, it's never been 1 vote cast. This is a situation I never forsaw arising. Now I have to deal with an issue I never saw arising as well as a role that probably wouldn't be under such scrutiny if this situation had never occured.
Let's say yesterday that two other people voted Nuclearspeed and Nuclearspeed also had Mind Trick applied to him. Would it have mattered? Nuclearspeed already won the vote and he has a choice of two other people to rebound the vote to. Big deal if his vote was changed by the JMT or not. As I've stated, there is only an issue with the Jedi Mind Trick working because of all the roles, it suddenly has the entire game in the balance because of a unique situation.
Reflecting on the role, I'd have to say that I would let the JMT switch the vote of the Rebound player. In most cases, it is inconsequential when this happens and if it breaks a tie, it is still inconsequential since the Rebounded player would survive the vote and have someone else to send the vote to, like Day 1. It is only because now of this one unique scenario that it would suddenly be a problem.
And to be frank, you didn't help the situation when you decided to be so cock-sure about victory that you revealed people's roles. Had you not done that, it may have helped the player with Force Rebound at least trick other people into joining him in a vote preventing this scenario. Part of the reason this plan of one vote for the day worked is because you made immensly easy for the townies to group together and trust one another. Not to mention, in your mafia game, you made a tweak to a rule here and there as the game was going on. Clarification happens it. It happens in every game.
Not to mention, you posted asking me questions about the Force Rebound role and how I never mentioned the Jedi Mind Trick working against it. Well, you yourself never asked if the Jedi Mind Trick worked against Force Rebound either nor do I think you ever forsaw a situation like this arising if it did. To critize the townies for reacting instead of planning so you deserve a ruling in your favor is also not going to help your case. Even in games where one has well-planned strategy, stuff happens that causes you to change it. Does that mean you don't deserve a win because you had to react to something that changed your strategy? But because you developed a situation and made the townies react to it, suddenly their efforts shouldn't be rewarded if they are successful in reacting against it?
I know you assumed with Force Manipulation out, you were invincible. I had no reason to think otherwise myself. The fact that the townies have found a bit of a solution is it admirable. You are arguing that I'm breaking my own rules to help them win. Yet, as I've pointed out, the only way the JMT could be considered braking my rules is in this one scenario raised. Every other time, using the Mind Trick against a rebounded player would be of no consequence whether successful or rebounded. It's a loophole. It works.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: vudu on March 13, 2008, 09:20:46 PM
Can I get the Cliff Notes version?
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: that Baby guy on March 13, 2008, 11:09:50 PM
If you had given any reason what-so-ever to believe that the Mind-Trick would work on a rebound, I simply would have killed Spak. I like him, so I kept him around. The fact is that the townies could have prevented the Senator from having force rebound. Heck, before I died, I started sending NuclearSpeed a PM predicting that this could happen, only to stop myself, because I knew that Rebound would keep him from voting from himself. If you're going to alter the way abilities work, you should at least not force a rebounded character to kill his/herself, since, as you said before, the rules do not necessitate that he must.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 13, 2008, 11:14:57 PM
Hey does Stevey want to host a mafia game?
Alright. Listen up. There is another way to win the game. A legal way and that is billl D-5 asking for powers. If you get Force Manipulation, you can stop the Rebound player.
It's a long shot but it's legal and ratified. JMT can still work on Force Rebound. However, the Rebound from a player with Force Rebound will not kill him if it is his own attack that he is rebounding.
Voting will be open until 12:30 am to make up for this final solution. And I am not discussing the matter further. It was easier dealing with a dupe account.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: that Baby guy on March 13, 2008, 11:18:31 PM
Thank you. I know I'm a pain, but I appreciate this.
It's also fair to note that players can also get force rebound from that bill.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 13, 2008, 11:19:31 PM
If you had given any reason what-so-ever to believe that the Mind-Trick would work on a rebound, I simply would have killed Spak. I like him, so I kept him around. The fact is that the townies could have prevented the Senator from having force rebound. Heck, before I died, I started sending NuclearSpeed a PM predicting that this could happen, only to stop myself, because I knew that Rebound would keep him from voting from himself. If you're going to alter the way abilities work, you should at least not force a rebounded character to kill his/herself, since, as you said before, the rules do not necessitate that he must.
ARGH.
He isn't CHANGING the way abilities WORK. He's being consistent with what happened previously in the game. Thatguy, the fault falls on YOU for ASSUMING that Jedi Mind Trick would be rebounded!
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: bustin98 on March 13, 2008, 11:20:10 PM
Vudu:
All that matters is yesterday doesn't count. And NuclearSpeed has Force Rebound.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: NuclearSpeed on March 13, 2008, 11:22:02 PM
vote bustin98
maybe this will lead us back to normalcy
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: that Baby guy on March 13, 2008, 11:22:22 PM
Also, I'll host the next mafia to make up for the anger I should receive from this. Expect typical roles for a change of pace, since these last two have been complicated.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 13, 2008, 11:25:31 PM
However, the Rebound from a player with Force Rebound will not kill him if it is his own attack that he is rebounding.
But this is in direct conflict to how you advised me it would work. Why are you changing this now, and for what reason? I am sure that Thatguy is upset, but why should the townies suffer for his inability to anticipate this eventuality?
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 14, 2008, 12:28:44 AM
The reason I'm saying that is to make sure everyone just follows the only "legal" way to get rid of Force Rebound. If I still allow the tie situation, then that is all the townies will focus on and it will still lead to complaints about how the Jedi mind Trick should affect/shouldn't affect.
This ruling allows the Jedi Mind Trick to still work on Force Rebound but it makes up for that fact by keeping the person from dying at their own rebound.
Look, I'm not happy with the way things have gone on the past couple days. I probably could have handled the situation better so that bugs me. I am tired of hearing thatguy complain and whine. I liked your ingenuity and the fact that a simple role like Jedi Mind Trick could have turned out to be so huge. To me, Jedi Mind Trick was different since it affected a vote not the person's power. In fact, that vote turned out to use the Force Rebound against the player. It was clever and smart.
Frankly, I regret letting Thatguy propose the bill with Force Rebound for the Senator. Since Force Manipulation was dead, I thought it would unbalance the game. But I figured the townies would see that and reject the bill right away because of it. Then to my surprise, it got ratified. At least the next bill allowing powers got ratified also to counter it. So, I understand why Thatguy is upset also. The townies let themselves get in this mess.
I'm glad you stopped yourself from pming Nuclearspeed. We don't need another dead player influincing the game though in some ways that is what's happening.
And Kairon is right. It is not really my duty to inform you of every possible move or what strategy you should take. If you had known JMT could affect Force Rebound you would have killed JMT. Well, sorry for not sending you a message saying by the way, just so that you know, the player with JMT can change your vote so you better watch out. Like I said before, you never asked about it and I never thought it would be the issue it has become. If I did, I would have said something in the rules long before it became an issue. That's what I did in the last game I hosted. I could see some issues arising with the roles that were left so I clarified things before such a situation arose. Frankly, the player JMT hadn't really been using the ability much before this and aside from breaking the day 1 tie, the role hadn't meant much to the game before this.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 14, 2008, 12:30:53 AM
Kairon:
I know you aren't happy with the ruling but at least it fits in with what has happened in the past with these roles so it keeps everything on the square. However, you did request another day to re-do because of it. Do you still want that?
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 14, 2008, 12:32:56 AM
Yes. I believe that the townies need another day to decide on a new strategy. It's too much to ask of all of us, I think, to completely re-organize within several hours when we may or may not sign on.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 14, 2008, 12:33:58 AM
Oh and maybe should send a note to each player and outline every possible strategy and scenario for the next couple of days so that they won't be able to complain that they have been mislead. It seems to be the biggest error I am committing as host.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Kairon on March 14, 2008, 12:35:00 AM
No. That will send a dangerous precedent. I don't want anyone else doing what thatguy did. No offense Lando. &P
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 14, 2008, 12:41:22 AM
Also, I'll host the next mafia to make up for the anger I should receive from this. Expect typical roles for a change of pace, since these last two have been complicated.
Well, that's what I did after Stevey's game when everyone was complaining about the rules. This is why I never wanted to go after stevey so much because the shoe can easily go onto the other foot.
Funny thing is even though this has been a bad time hosting for me, I almost felt like hosting the next mafia game and just going simple like you suggested.
I think the worst thing about this whole JMT fiasco is that it has killed the fun of the game. Things were getting interesting and starting to pick up a bit in the game after a bit of a slow start with easy mafia kills and then this had to happen and stop in dead in its tracks. I don't know how many people are even interested in playing it anymore. Look how many townies haven't shown up.
To be frank, right now, to me, Wandering is an angel compared to thatguy.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 14, 2008, 12:45:54 AM
If you had given any reason what-so-ever to believe that the Mind-Trick would work on a rebound, I simply would have killed Spak.
Actually, there was a clue of this. The Day 1 vote. The vote ended in a tie yet I said the Jedi Mind Trick had ended the tie. I never mentioned who's vote was switched but we know Dasmos lost the vote yet he had Force Rebound. I'm surprised you didn't ask to make sure Dasmos vote wasn't switched to himself since you seem to have had all the roles figured out in how they are supposed to behave.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: Khushrenada on March 14, 2008, 12:51:09 AM
Alright. Now that I've sent out a few more parting jabs, here's what I'll do. I'm going to make a new Day 8 thread since this one is completely ruined with long posts over rule interpretations. We'll start on a clean slate and put this nasty business behind us. The dead won't post in the voting thread anymore. And we'll play it out and see what happens.
In some ways, this could still be a big finale. There are nine people left and everyone pretty much knows who everyone else is so we'll see if that will have a bearing on how things play out and if they will cause a further increase into strategy.
As well, since we may get a situation of Force Rebound vs Force Rebound if the townies ens up acquiring it, I will post out how that will work since that seems to be the last area not talked about in the rules and may come into play.
So, give me a moment and I'll reboot the day.
Title: Re: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant
Post by: bustin98 on March 14, 2008, 01:11:03 AM
