Messages

[Jensen]

3626

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Wiimote has limited angle of "pointer" detection?

« on: May 10, 2006, 08:02:23 PM »

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Originally posted by: JensenThe gyroscopic mice work because the only sense input while holding down a button, they are relative, like a mouse.  The Wiimote has to work differently.

Who said anything about mice?  Have you read the MP3 impressions?  There's mention of recalibration.

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The controller isn't magic :-)

Aw, crap.  Why don't you just crush all my dreams while you're at it?

[Jensen]

3627

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Wiimote has limited angle of "pointer" detection?

« on: May 10, 2006, 06:48:08 PM »

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Originally posted by: Jensen
This is very simple guys.  There are 3 acceleration sensors in the controller.  The only feedback is 3 numbers: the amount of acceleration in each of the three directions.

Your own link makes a good case for there only being one sensor in each controller.  One chip can detect acceleration on 3 axes, and it can detect the pull of gravity.  Color me impressed.

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Holding the controller upside down will give the same 3 numbers as pushing the controller downwards at 2g.  But turning the controller upside down requires it to first be on its side, so you can infer that the controller was turned.

Not to mention that as soon as it came to rest, it would detect a sudden, constant 1g pull in the opposite direction that could be assumed to be gravity.  There's no way anyone could keep it moving in the same direction at 1g for long.

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Without harsh lateral movement, Pitch and Roll detection is absolute, because it is sensing the constant force of gravity. Yaw detection is relative, so it can drift.  Lateral vs. Rotational motion is just infered.  You could use the remote as a pointer without the sensor bar, but the horizontal orientation would quickly drift.  The IR sensor bar gives absolute orientation along the horizontal/yaw axis.

That's an interesting point.  I'd wager the sensor is actually in the controller, and the bar has IR emitters on it.  It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the bar was horizontal.  The sensor would see two bright spots in the IR spectrum, and the controller's orientation could be determined based on the line between them.  However, twist the controller 180 degrees and it will see the exact same thing.  I don't think that's what the IR is for, regardless.

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The IR can also detect distance by comparing how far apart the sensors are.

True, as long as the sensors are in view.  Acceleration detection can make up for when they aren't, and it may explain the need to continuously recalibrate under some circumstances.

All of that still only gets the position of the controller within its own reference frame, though.  The virtual world is a different reference frame, and the only way to know the controller's absolute position in the virtual world's reference frame is to start with a known point in both.  That would be the TV screen.  The game knows which point in the virtual world is being used as a POV.  It could paint a dot on the screen and ask you to touch the controller to it to calibrate, and then the two reference frames would be in sync right up until the moment you exceeded 2 g with the controller, which is probably pretty easy to do based on the examples at the end of this article.

Let me reiterate that I am not whining.  The controller does not suck.  The controller is awesome.  I just want to understand it.

3628

TalkBack / RE: IMPRESSIONS: Yoshi's Island 2 (temporary name)

« on: May 10, 2006, 06:09:22 PM »

I wonder why they changed the controls.  Unless I'm mistaken, on the SNES pressing Y spit the enemy back out.  I'm pretty sure you could still use A to throw eggs even with your mouth full.  Also, why use X to bring up the reticule and A to throw instead of just A?  I liked the press and release method in the old days.  Does it let you throw several eggs in a row at the same target?  That would be new.  I can't even remember what, if anything, X did on the SNES.

I for one don't mind all the classic-style platformers, but they do seem to be overdoing it.  I doubt it will seem like too much when they release them one at a time, months apart.  It seems like a lot all at once because they're all being announced at the best time and place to announce things.

[stevey]

3629

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Wiimote has limited angle of "pointer" detection?

« on: May 10, 2006, 05:48:35 PM »

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Originally posted by: stevey
Accelerometer only sense rapid change in speed, but the wiimote has gyro's that are the tilt / twist senser that can make up for the limited pointing detection and the wiimote not even finished yet, give nintendo time fix stuff before bitching.

Here's the most relevant text from the page Jensen found (emphasis added):

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About the ADXL330
The ADXL330 is a small, low profile, low power, 3-axis accelerometer with signal conditioned analog voltage outputs. With a ±2 g range, it is capable of measuring the static acceleration of gravity for tilt-sensing applications, as well as dynamic acceleration resulting from motion, shock, or vibration. Power consumption is extremely low, less than 200 microamps at 2.0 V (typical). Supply voltage range is 2.0 V to 3.6 V. The ADXL330 is compatible with applications requiring bandwidths ranging from 0.5Hz to 1.6 kHz. The ADXL330 is offered in a 4 mm × 4 mm × 1.45 mm, 16-lead, plastic lead frame chip scale package, with a shock rating of 10,000 g.

Judging by this, the accelerometer is way better than I expected.  There are no gyroscopes in the controller.  It doesn't need them.  Also, I'm not complaining.  I guess that may be assumed since that's been the norm around here lately, but I'm just talking about something I find interesting.  I hope that doesn't offend you too much.

3630

Nintendo Gaming / RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl

« on: May 10, 2006, 05:26:54 PM »

I take it the cardboard box is Snake's Down+B.  That's hilarious.  The Smash Bros. logo on the box is a nice touch.

3631

Nintendo Gaming / RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl

« on: May 10, 2006, 05:17:44 PM »

I'm glad I was at home instead of work when I read this.  When I saw MetaKnight and Pit on there I clapped my hands and yelled quite loudly without even thinking.  But seriously, Nintendogs?

3632

Nintendo Gaming / RE: Wiimote has limited angle of "pointer" detection?

« on: May 10, 2006, 05:02:56 PM »

The IR is for the pointing only.  There's still an accelerometer in the controller for sensing both movement and tilt.

[zakkiel]

3633

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Wiimote has limited angle of "pointer" detection?

« on: May 10, 2006, 04:28:47 PM »

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Originally posted by: zakkiel
Or, uh, the standard limit for a good signal from remote to receiver? This information actually means nothing at all.

The range of the controller and the range at which it can be used as a pointer would be the same if that were the deciding factor.

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I had previously thought that if the Wii knew where the controller was in relation to the TV, then it also knew where it was in relation to the game world, meaning that you'd actually have to shoot around things.

It does. Did you notice the ping-pong demonstration? With sufficiently precise accelerometers you need only the occasional input from some fixed reference (like a pair of IR sensors) to keep track of space.

That's not quite the same thing I was thinking of.  The paddle in the table tennis game has to start somewhere.  From that point, the accurate accelerometer is good enough to map real world motion to virtual world motion.  However, there's no way for that starting position to be related to any real world position.  If it were possible to know exactly where in the room the controller was, you could take it one more step.  Imagine a room with a column in it.  Now imagine that the player's viewpoint is directly behind the column, so that it's in the middle of the screen.  If the player is sitting directly in front of the TV, he can shoot straight ahead and hit the column.  If he reaches around to the right, he can shoot around the column, hitting the wall behind it even though he can't see it.  With the controller's absolute position known, the bullet's trajectory can be traced from the controller all the way into the virtual environment instead of from a virtual gun in that environment.  That can't be done on relative position alone.  It can be approximated using the pointing function combined with the motion sensing, but that's beyond the point I'm trying to make.  Knowing the absolute position of the controller could have allowed for some gameplay ideas that aren't feasible without it.

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The fact that there are only two sensors - which doesn't allow any vertical location at all - suggests that the accelerometers are the more important feature.

I was operating on the assumption that it was the controller that had three transmitters in it.

3634

TalkBack / RE:IMPRESSIONS: Metroid Prime 3: Corruption

« on: May 10, 2006, 01:13:16 PM »

If my current line of thought is better than my last one (still not over that ), the IR is for detecting where you're pointing.  It still uses RF (specifically Bluetooth) to communicate with the console.

3635

Nintendo Gaming / RE: Wiimote has limited angle of "pointer" detection?

« on: May 10, 2006, 01:06:15 PM »

I finally paid attention to the few specs Nintendo mentions on the official Wii site:

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Up to four Wii Remotes can be connected at once using wireless Bluetooth technology. The wireless signal can be detected within 10 meters of the console. Both the Wii Remote and Nunchuk controllers include a three-axis motion sensor. The Wii Remote also includes a speaker, rumble feature and expansion port, and can be used as a pointer within 5 meters of the screen.

If it worked the way I originally thought, there would only be one conceivable reason for the pointer ability to be range limited, which is that the triangulation of the controller's position would be less accurate the further away from the sensor bar it moved.  It seems unlikely that it would be imprecise enough for such a short range limit, however.  I see the writing on the wall now.  The good news is that only one of my fantasies is actually crushed by this revelation.  I had previously thought that if the Wii knew where the controller was in relation to the TV, then it also knew where it was in relation to the game world, meaning that you'd actually have to shoot around things.  I would have enjoyed that added level of immersion, but it's not a major loss.  It does mean that Sony's ripoff is closer to the real thing than I thought it was, though.

Eesh.  I'm trying not to let this shattering of my illusions dull my excitement.  Time to go read more Super Mario Galaxy impressions!

3636

Nintendo Gaming / RE: Wiimote has limited angle of "pointer" detection?

« on: May 10, 2006, 12:43:10 PM »

Well, after seeing the up close picture of the sensor bar, it seems possible that the thing really is just a pair of IR emitters that the remote picks up, though I don't know how it could work with any size TV without calibration if that's the case.  My assumptions about how the remote works have been shaken, and I really want Nintendo to make an official statement on the matter.

3637

Nintendo Gaming / RE: new Duck Hunt!

« on: May 10, 2006, 12:18:13 PM »

Well, the biggest reason I had for wanting a gun attachment was an actual gunsight, and they didn't even get that right.  There doesn't appear to be any legitimate reason for this controller add-on.

3638

TalkBack / RE: IMPRESSIONS: Metroid Prime 3: Corruption

« on: May 10, 2006, 10:40:02 AM »

Sounds cool.  I hope you give the developers an earful about how bad an idea it is to mix the accelerometer and analog stick controls like that.  That sounds really unintuitive.  Also, why in the world would the game lose calibration after it was established?  If you squeeze some information about how the controller actually works out of them, you'll be my personal hero.

3639

Nintendo Gaming / RE: Wiimote has limited angle of "pointer" detection?

« on: May 10, 2006, 08:12:14 AM »

I can't remember who I saw propose it, but I've been wondering lately if the window at the front of the remote houses a light sensor that senses where the TV is.  It's clear now that the dimensions of the TV are not indicated to the console through placement of the sensors, and a calibration step, no matter how simple, would be a technical barrier to people who can't program a VCR.  Calibration would also have to be repeated if either the TV or sensor bar moved at all.  If the remote can "see" the TV, though, then the Wii can do the math and avoid a need for calibration.  I don't know why obstructing the view would be troublesome for a short time, though.  It's not like it would forget where the TV was a moment before.  It also makes me wonder if putting the TV in front of a window would be problematic.

I really need confirmation of how the controller actually works.

3640

Nintendo Gaming / RE: new Duck Hunt!

« on: May 10, 2006, 07:56:19 AM »

Arbok:  The controller is only useful as a pointer if there's a cursor on screen, which pretty much destroys all the fun and challenge of a game like Duck Hunt, Hogan's Alley, or Time Crisis.  A gun peripheral would have an actual gunsight on it with which to aim.

3641

Nintendo Gaming / RE: new Duck Hunt!

« on: May 10, 2006, 06:57:26 AM »

Stealing cars and shooting people are illegal.  Even if you were right, what would be your point?

3642

Nintendo Gaming / RE: Wii's new look

« on: May 10, 2006, 06:15:31 AM »

It looks like there's a battery compartment on the back of the remote.  They've also made the B button more trigger like.  It could even be analog, but I guess I should look for some hands-on impressions to find out.

3643

TalkBack / RE: Nintendo's Disruption

« on: May 09, 2006, 12:51:19 PM »

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Along with Wii Sports, which includes the tennis game, the highly anticipated The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess will launch at the same time as Wii....

Tell me I'm reading that wrong!  Only two first party games on launch day?

3644

TalkBack / RE: Partial Wii Game List

« on: May 09, 2006, 12:44:54 PM »

Dare we hope that the Vivendi Universal one is a Blizzard game?  'Cause, you know, if it's not then it's guaranteed crap.  My money's on crap, but then, I'm too worn out to be optimistic.  I've run out of glee for the day.

3645

NWR Forums Discord / RE: Time until Nintendo's E³ Press Conference.

« on: May 09, 2006, 12:41:46 PM »

I see what you did there.  hypocrite (j/k)

3646

Nintendo Gaming / RE:another controller

« on: May 09, 2006, 11:50:31 AM »

Regarding the layout: This thing is intended primarily for playing games for which the D-pad is the primary input, not the analog stick.  It makes sense for the D-pad to be in the primary position in that case.  The criticism against the Dual Shock is that with the move to 3D games, the analog stick should have been moved to the primary position.  Also, judging by the width of the cord, D-pad, and buttons, this thing's pretty small.  I doubt it will be as much of a reach to the analog sticks on this controller as it is on the Dual Shock.

For N64 games, I hope that the controls can be customized.  for games that just use the C buttons for camera control, the stick would work fine, but for some games it would be nice to be able to choose which buttons do what.  With the extra shoulder buttons, every button could be remapped, although the best layout for each game might be different.

I'm not convinced this is the final design.  The home button isn't recessed like it is on the new remote, for starters, and it's not wireless.

3647

Nintendo Gaming / RE: Tuesdayton!!!! Conference play by play thread

« on: May 08, 2006, 12:40:14 PM »

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I hope they announce a name change-back tomorrow. I hope to God.

Having an article printed in Time is the best proof yet that the name Wii is not a publicity stunt.  It wasn't at all likely before that, either.  It's slightly more possible that continuous negative opinions about the name in the mainstream press will convince them to change it before release, but it would take a massive outpouring of hate for that to happen, the kind of hate that the mainstream press simply cannot generate about something as ultimately ridiculous as video games.

3648

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Time Magazine demos Wario Ware, Tennis, & TP for Wii!

« on: May 08, 2006, 10:31:47 AM »

From the article:

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It has now been rechristened the Nintendo Wii, an unreadable, unintelligible (that daunting double-i!) syllable. (For the record, it's pronounced "we," and the i's are supposed to represent the new controller ... never mind.)

The most interesting part about what he says about the name (and I don't want to start that fight over again, I'm just pointing this out because it's interesting) is the "never mind" there at the end.  He points out that it's supposed to sound like "we" and that the 'i's are controllers, but then stops as if to say, "I'm pretty sure you, my readers, don't actually care about this, and I don't think it's worth my time to explain it."

[JonLeung]

3649

General Chat / RE:Original Star Wars Trilogy coming to DVD!

« on: May 08, 2006, 05:59:01 AM »

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Originally posted by: JonLeung
I was just about to say that.  They're milking as much as they can out of Star Wars fans with the current DVD format, and probably could rerelease some of these versions barely changed on either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD (only now maybe on fewer discs or better quality).

The quality is already too good.  I watched the Special Edition DVDs with some friends on their 94" screen, and the amount of detail you can see breaks some of the magic.  For example, you can see Anthony Daniels' skin between pieces of his C-3PO costume, or you can look straight through the gaps in R2-D2 to see that he's mostly empty.  This is why I'm not so sure about HD being the future for movies.  If you can see so much detail that you can tell the communicator prop is just an electric razor with an extra bit of plastic glued on, it's going to make supension of disbelief a lot harder.  So much of movie magic is based on letting the human brain fill in the gaps automatically that I don't know if even movies made by crews aware of this problem can get around it.

3650

NWR Forums Discord / RE:I thought I would share this with you guys; Mario Wii

« on: May 08, 2006, 05:39:30 AM »

Stupid, but true:  When I click on a link to Planet Gamecube, in my mind I hear it screamed like Captain Caveman's battle cry.