Post by: Sean on February 08, 2003, 06:26:16 PM
Okay, everyone, daily, hourly, constantly is talking about how Nintendo needs to change and do things differently if they expect to "win" the console war, etc. etc. etc. It's never-ending.
Now, by no means do I mean to imply that Nintendo has never made mistakes. Their reliance on certain things like Pokemon, for example, hasn't really helped their long-term image, and whatever image it helped to create, Nintendo is now, apparently, trying to downplay or even muddle, or even destroy (probably not DESTROY, but you catch me).
However, Nintendo has a clear image of who they are, what they do, what they are going to do, and how they fit into the gaming world. This isn't arrogance, and the choices they make, I believe, aren't foolhardy or rushed or small-minded or conservative. They have two main goals, and they are the two goals that they have always had--these two goals also come with a condition, you might say.
1) Make great games and make them fun.
2) Make money with great games to make more great games.
Condition: Never do anything to compromise your value system.
Now, hopefully since that's clear, you will see what I'm getting at.
Constantly, gamefans hear that Nintendo is "losing touch" (or has lost touch), that they are mired in the past, that they hold too dear the old ways of marketing, that Nintendo isn't paying attention. This last assumption strikes me as the most ridiculous. The question you need ask is how do people come to this conclusion, that Nintendo isn't paying attention? Well, the obvious answer is this: when a new game, like Grand Theft Auto 3, takes the world by storm and sells untold millions upon millions and ushers in a new dawn of gaming (which it pretty much did. Just read the way critics talk about the game--critics from magazines as various as EGM, Maxim, even Playboy--calling it one of the most "important" games of the 90s, etc.) This game CHANGED THINGS. It's a game FULL of plot and gameplay and story events and tasks, and yet watch how the average guy (which was nearly every person who bought GTA3, based on what I've seen) plays the game--he or she ignores the "tasks" and the "story"; they, for months and months, simply drive around town, running over pedestrians and shooting the legs off old women.
(Disclaimer: forgive the obvious comparison to GTA3, which really is terrific game--it's just such a cultural milestone, I can't help but use it. Realize I am not beating up on it.)
Now, I am not trying to condescend. If that's fun for you, great! Really. But the problem is, people take the current "Big Thing" and use that as the balance for the rest of gaming. They look to Nintendo, or "Kidtendo" as they might call it, and they ask, "Does Kidtendo have anything like this? NO?!!?? They must not be paying attention, or they would be all over this like the flesh-eating virus is on Michael Jackson!" Do you follow me?
Since this obviously isn't the sort of game, however good, that Nintendo is interested in, the average Joe Gamer says they are irrelevant. Am I rehashing what has been said time and time before? I think maybe so, but perhaps something is striking you as you read this.
So, where does Nintendo fit into the modern world? I know a lot of kids (I'm 24, and I have taught junior-high and high school English, so that's where some of my evidence comes from) who still find magic (I know, it's corny) in a game like Super Mario Sunshine. They also just love running over prostitutes in GTA3 if their parents allow (or, as the case may be, the sneak a copy into their houses as I've heard), however insane that may sound. A lot of these kids are also yelling about the new Zelda, the prospect of a new Mario Kart, even a few of my students really enjoyed the much-maligned (but in my opinion quite good) Pikmin and yearn for Pikmin 2.
The fact is, Nintendo IS who they ARE. They will grow, they will innovate, they will make new things, IN THEIR OWN WAY. It takes a special eye, in the increasingly competitive and flashy gaming war, to note the difference, but it is there. We are very hung up on exteriors, so it's easy for us to take a single look at a game and literally write it off for good. This is unfortunate.
Meanwhile, a lot of kids are having a grand old time, and the Nintendo Purists shout and fill up message boards ad infinitum (case in point, here). Nintendo belongs where they are, and they know it, but most of the world thinks they are being left behind in the realms of the Old Fashioned. Flaws and all, Nintendo does still matter though. And for all the true gamers out there, we know to dig a little deeper before we judge, and that's why it's so much more meaningful for us. And that sort of thinking is as cross-console as you can get.
Post by: The Omen on February 08, 2003, 08:10:24 PM
Post by: Sean on February 09, 2003, 06:12:50 AM
Wouldn't it be great if, in the next Mario game, it was sort of linear and you had to run quickly up these steps at the end and jump onto a flagpole? Actually, that's not really sounding like a great idea. But I will admit that that sort of surreal, unexplainable event is sorely lacking from Mario. I guess I should just embrace realism! Haha...as if it were realistic to carry a talking water pump or to ride a purple yoshi. And where are the Hammer Bros.???
Post by: Gamefreak on February 09, 2003, 06:18:40 AM
Post by: Sean on February 09, 2003, 07:32:08 AM
Edit: Or were you simply saying that GTA3 wasn't an "important" game in general? If so, I certainly disagree.
Post by: Matt on February 09, 2003, 09:15:52 AM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on February 09, 2003, 09:48:32 AM
And while I might be bummed out time to time because of games i miss out on other plattforms Nintendo games are always better and I wouldnt even have the money for more AAA games then there are going to be on GCN. So technically the GCN has TOO many good games for me, especially in the next year.
WHAT A 2003 LINEUP OMG
Post by: Rancid Planet on February 09, 2003, 12:39:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Sean
I first saw Super Mario Bros., I believe, during the summer of 1986, when my family was visiting my grand-dad in such an unlikely place as Crossville, TN (which, by the way, isn't exactly known for technological advances, if you didn't guess), and my distant cousin, whom I had never met, lived across the street. Walking in there for the first time, I was in heaven. I played through the first level, pulled a spread-eagle face-first into the flagpole, and my life was changed for good. Haha...
My very first Super Mario Brothers moment happend not to far from Crossville. In a town called Maryville, in a Pizza Hut parlor I fell in love.
...A boy remembers such things.
Post by: Cerberus on February 09, 2003, 12:50:32 PM
Post by: Marufy007 on February 10, 2003, 06:33:59 AM
it was 1987 and i was 7 years old. i remember going to a friends house on a friday and he started showing off his nintendo he had just bought. his whole family hogged the system the entire time i was there. i got to play once, but no one told me how to jump! so instead of pressing A, i kept hitting up hoping i would stomp on that goomba in the first level. unfortunatly i died. that was my first experience with mario and nintendo...i later became known as "Mario" and "Nintendo Nut" among my peers once i got a NES for my birthday in 88. i even dressed up as Mario for Halloween. i didnt want a store bought one so i kept begging my mom to make one. it turned out pretty good. i had to wear thermal underwear so i could stuff a pillow in my gut and look fat without it falling out. boy was i hot! hehe, oh the memories!
Post by: Ian Sane on February 10, 2003, 08:56:56 AM
Anyway Sean makes a pretty good point. Nintendo isn't the type of company to make a game like GTA3 so we shouldn't expect them to release one. That's fair enough. I don't expect Nintendo to release one. However you (and many other people) are making the assumption that Nintendo the developer and Nintendo the console maker are exactly the same thing. That's not true.
No Nintendo isn't going to and probably shouldn't make a game like GTA3. BUT that doesn't mean the Gamecube shouldn't have a title like that. Nintendo doesn't have to make any ultramature games but they can try to get third parties to make those sort of games on the Gamecube and they're not. Nintendo games are only released on Nintendo consoles but that doesn't mean that Nintendo consoles only have Nintendo games on them. The Gamecube can have ANY game on it and if Nintendo doesn't make it it doesn't compromise their principles.
The Gamecube should have games like GTA3 on it just to fill in genre gaps in its library. Nintendo doesn't have to compromise their image to do so.
Post by: Gamer Donkey on February 10, 2003, 11:36:38 AM
Secondly: My first NES came to me at the age of 2, in 1989 and was a life-altering experience. Despite my sister hogging it.
Thirdly: I think the people at Nintendo are doing their job well. I do understand, however, that even though I don't see the point of beating random people on the street, doesn't mean Nintendo can't make or release a game like that. But Ninendo's success doesn't seem to be in one ground-breaking game, but rather many qualituy games. Right now I'm only have money to buy one of the four games I want, with more I anticipate to be released soon. I just can't be satisfied with one game, there are so many diverse titles. I want to go on, but I know that would be boring to you, fair reader. So please keep an open mind to my opinions.
Post by: RickPowers on February 10, 2003, 11:48:03 AM
Post by: Clonester on February 10, 2003, 11:49:43 AM
I started out on the Nes (everyone seems to be including this, so I will too). First game was Super Mario Bros. I also got (and still have) RBI Baseball, Grand Slam Golf, Final Fantasy, Legend Of Zelda, Dragon Warrior IV, Tecmo Bowl, and Tecmo Super Bowl (which is still my most favorite football game ahead of Madden 2003, and the Tecmo Bowl series is the only ounce of respect I give to Tecmo). I also borrowed dozens of games from my friend for the system (less money for me to spend, hehehe). Those games are still fun to play. The Snes is still my most favorite console ever. So I think it is complete and utter nonsense that Nintendo is stuck in the past. Game cartridges, CD's, and DVD's age, but the games that are on them and the fun you have playing them lasts forever. Fun knows no boundaries, BUT, the concept of what is fun has been twisted and changed.
My most favorite games are the long, epic, great games, the top two being Chrono Trigger and LOZ: Ocarina Of Time (read my sig). Nintendo makes great long, epic, great games. Mario Bros. started this long line of games following this standard. Such game series Nintendo made or helped on that fit this bill include Mario, LOZ, Metroid, Donkey Kong, Earthbound, and many more. It's console has also been home to many other series that fit that bill. Nintendo also makes great games that are fun and are great to play with friends. They make games that may seem unusual like a Pikmin or Animal Crossings, but once you play these games you have no regrets. I know I didn't. Nintendo makes great games. Period. They make great consoles and hardware. Period. All I can say is: Long Live Nintendo!!!
Post by: Gamer Donkey on February 10, 2003, 11:53:10 AM
Post by: Sean on February 10, 2003, 12:42:10 PM
Ian Sane, you make a GREAT point in reminding people that Nintendo doesn't have to make a game like that when 3rd parties can do it for them. Great point, and well noted. That's where a few of the errors on Nintendo's part (capitalizing on Pokemon, for instance) sort of began to SLOWLY tell 3rd parties that their games weren't wanted on Nintendo's system. Of course, Nintendo denies this, even in the face of the "white blood/sweat" debacle way back in Mortal Kombat on SNES, and they say, I have read, that they do not discourage "violent" games.
I would also like to say that if Nintendo did make a game as violent as GTA3 (and not via a 2nd party like Silicon Knights), I wouldn't hold that against them, necessarily, as long as they brought to it their usual touch. It would be a little hard to bear, perhaps, and we might all question their motives, but I won't say that it would be WRONG of Nintendo as that would be limiting them.
Still, I think the point has been made a few times here already that Nintendo is still (mostly) catering to who we were 10 or 15 years ago, and believe it or not, there's a whole new generation who needs them just as much we did. Perhaps we need them now more than ever, not to be too over dramatic.
Post by: rpglover on February 13, 2003, 01:33:35 PM
the problem is that these kids think that the only way you can make a good game now is with lots of blood, shooting, ect...
thats why gta is such a hit now...........but i bet none of those kids that love gta 3 ever played the original gtas
i am 19 yrs old and have had nintendo systems since 89
my first games were mario brothers and duck hunt
ever since then i have owned every nintendo system
and after seeing all these years of nintendo games i think nintendo is making some really good moves now
they are starting to release AAA titles closer together now (mario,metroid,zelda within 8 months of eachother!)
they are making new franchises (pikmin,warioworld)
they are taking risks in some of their new games (1st person in metroid,pikmin's gameplay)
people do not always realize these moves because they are so caught up in what is "cool"
i know lots of people with x-boxs and i like some of the games on that system
but those games do not have all the charm nintendo puts into their games
to me there is something about the cuteness of some of nintendos games that makes them very appealing
all i hope for is that nintendo makes the right business moves to stay in the business
i dont care if they are 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in the console race
i dont care if they do not do what all the people want them to
i just hope they stay in so i can still play those awesome nintendo exclusives for years to come
long live nintendo!
Post by: Gamer Donkey on February 13, 2003, 01:51:35 PM
My, so many Simpsons qoutes
Post by: Termin8Anakin on February 13, 2003, 03:02:04 PM
I myself only realised this last year, when I bought my Gamecube. I wanted to buy Mario Sunshine so bad, but when I played the demo at the shops, it just didn't seem to grab me and suck me in as much as MArio 64 did all those years ago. Sure Sunshine was the better game, but I realised that I just wasn't interested in these sort of games as I used to be. So, I go Eternal Darkness, Nightfire, Rogue Leader, Extreme G3 and Harry Potter (for my sister).
Zelda will always be captiating, and I'm sure Metroid Prime will do for me just fine, but the way in which Nintendo operates is not in need of a change. We are always hoping that Nintendo will "see the light" and make a mature game, but we know that's not gonna happen anytime soon. And we are always trying to find games that capture the essence of the first game we ever played that got us into games. But is that always possible? No. I'm sure that when we first played Super Mario Bros on the NES, we were just dumbstruck, but has that really been the case with Mario Sunshine? It sure was with Mario 64, because it was the first 3D Mario game, and it was done VERY well and that is what a revolution is, but Mario Sunshine is just EVOLUTIONARY and that is why it doesn't really capture that essence.
Post by: telaris on February 13, 2003, 04:36:37 PM
Post by: Marcus Arillius on February 13, 2003, 05:50:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Gamer Donkey
I'd have to agree, Nintendo just puts something into their games that you don't see other places. I first think of Waverace: Blue Storm, in the loading screen that little bubble just absorbs my attention for however long it takes. Who knows why, maybe I'm simple-minded, but that give every game something. Maybe its because they got started the earliest of all the next-gens, maybe its their Japanese ownership. I don't know, but whatever it is will keep me coming back to Nintendo for the GC2 and so forth.
My, so many Simpsons qoutes
OMG!!!! I thought I was the only person that was entranced by that little bubble. I always think if you put it on a certain spot on the screen, maybe it unlocks something....but alas, it doesn't, well, I don't think it does. Personally, I love everything about Nintendo, and although I may not agree with some things that they do (cel-shading zelda
I know, its innovative, refreshing, blah blah blah...whatever) I trust everything they do because they know what they are doing. I'm so glad they haven't changed what they do, and how they make their games, and it will be a dark day when they do. Just as someone stated before, I don't care what place they are in the console race. Does anyone really care? Thats just something the ney-sayers make a big deal out of to make themselves feel better for buying an x-box. ( the previous sentence was just a joke, and I hope everyone is aware of that.) Nintendo still makes the big bucks. I'm sure if they went by profit, Nintendo would be in second. Even still, that doesn't matter. In short, I love Nintendo........Nintendo, will you marry me?(once again, a joke, sort of ruins it, just like the last, but I don't want to be whined at) Post by: Kai on February 13, 2003, 06:01:53 PM
What I am thinking of are games which are intelligent, absorbing, have adult themes....like Deus Ex, System Shock 2, Silent Hill, Eternal Darkness, Resident Evil, Metroid Prime...and so on.
What I hope that Nintendo doesn't do is throw together some crass, exploitative junk just to throw off the "kiddy" image. Not that I think they would, but just thought I would define what I mean by "adult."
What I like about Nintendo is that they don't dumb down their games, but also manage to make them very accessible.
/edit - I just wanted to concur with what other people have mentioned about Nintendo's 'attention to detail" in their games. It's excellent.
Post by: BlkPaladin on February 13, 2003, 06:51:48 PM
As for Gaming Nastolgia my first experience with Nitnendo was Donkey Kong on the Atari at my second cousin's house. My first experience with the NES was Legend of Zelda at my first cousin's house. And finally what drove me over the edge was staying over at my best friend house playing nothing but video games on the NES. (Salome, SMB, Duck Hunt, Ballon Fighters ahhh.....)
Post by: Sean on February 14, 2003, 07:39:10 AM
Quote
What I like about Nintendo is that they don't dumb down their games, but also manage to make them very accessible.
I love what you say here, Kai. It's so utterly true. I know we're all tired of the "kiddie argument" against Nintendo, but it bears repeating that they aren't "kiddie" while they ARE accessible. Yes, exactly. Great point. The same people who yell "childish" at Nintendo all the time would be shocked at how "mature" the gameplay is in nearly any Nintendo game, if, that is, they ever bothered to play it.
But, most people argue from a very second-, or third-, or fourth-hand view of the so-called truth, and the internet is perfect for that sort of thing because it's so instantaneous, hence the millions of inane posts we read every day. Anyway, I don't want to beat this into the ground, but it's all about perception, and this, my friends, is a pity--because the games are so much better than to deserve a write-off thanks to a half-hearted perception.
Sometimes I wonder why we spend all this time talking about this sort of thing, and the naysayers like to throw out derogatory terms like "fanboy" and "loser" (I guess), but the truth is, if you love games, and if you really can tell a good game from a bad game (which goes beyond differences of taste and opinion SOMETIMES, doesn't it?), you feel compelled to TELL EVERYONE that they should play what you love, because you just can't stand to think that someone would miss out on such fun and greatness. That's what drives us, I guess.
I've really been impressed by the posts here--so many people, especially, saying things like "I don't care if Nintendo 'wins' the race, I just want them to survive." This is so clear-headed and sensible that I just want to cry...haha.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on February 14, 2003, 08:06:27 AM
I must say I got that feeling again, the one I had playing Mario64, that feeling where you forget its a game and you litterally become one with the character.
All I can say is wow.
Post by: Sean on February 14, 2003, 08:15:41 AM
Post by: egman on February 14, 2003, 08:40:33 AM
I swear too many people are putting way too much into this image thing, which I think is one of the biggest signs of immaturity and insecurity. What's worse is that MS and Sony are conciously exploiting this obession and contributing to the dumbing down of the video game industry. Yeah, it's good business, but I pity the direction things will be headed to in the next couple generations. Ironically, we probably saw more "mature" games in previous generations of consoles and computers than what we are seeing now as the race to take over our living room with set-top boxes heats up between MS and Sony.
Video games are just that, GAMES. People might as well lap it up and play what they think is fun, not what their friends or the competition says falls under real of "cool."
Post by: thecubedcanuck on February 14, 2003, 09:49:01 AM
I was litterally in awe.
I honestly thought this would suck being "cel shaded", but what I saw wasnt a cell shaded game at all, I saw a real life cartoon, a cartoon I became part of. I stoof there for a long time playing, I actually lost track of time.
The sad thing was how easily I got to try it, maybe because I was in a suit and tie, or just because I was the only person in the GC section.
Everyone seemed to be gawking at The Getaway on the PS2.
As I walked by the kids playing the PS2 set-up I said "you should ot try Zelda on the GC display, I just hope it isnt to hard for you youngsters"
I smiled all the way back to the office.
Post by: cubist on February 14, 2003, 04:10:12 PM
GTA 3 is a very important game in terms of flexing the rating system. If you recall during the Mortal Kombat SNES (censored) vs. Genesis (uncensored) era in the U.S., when there wasn't a war for Congress to worry about, video games were being heavily scrutinized. It was a new era for the videogame industry. However, with the rating system that was imposed, companies are now able to create properties with more flexibility. Personally, althought GTA 3 was a very impressive game in this respect, the Mature rating is best used for intellectual story-telling purposes (i.e., Eternal Darkness). I'm not dismissing GTA 3 as not possessing intelligent story design, but think about the gamer who doesn't pay attention to the missions in the game and drives around just to shoot and run over people and/or picking up prostitutes for sexual encounters - they outnumber those who actually play the game to progress the storyline. This is based on observation and not some real experiment in case I get questioned as to the source of my statement.
Post by: Sean on February 14, 2003, 09:58:41 PM
It hurts the industry creatively because money really does come first, and that's just a fact. And companies will go where the money is. Hence, all the countless GTA imitations, which itself is an imitation of many lesser, poorly-made games, isn't it? Hence, all the unfair ire towards Nintendo concerning their conservative views and "archaic" game-making techniques. It just dominoes. Part of me says this will not last forever, and that sooner or later it will even back out. It all just needs to be brought back into focus, and that can't really start until gamers break out of their camps and start enjoying games again. It's just really hard when there are so many options (I know that sounds absurd) because then you want to constantly justify that you made the right decision in buying your console. If there were just one system, prices would surely suck, but the arguments would likely be more about the games, I guess, than it is now.
In short, I will not blame GTA3 for the limited ways in which the masses play it, and I realize this isn't an exactly black and white issue, but there is a lot of information to be gleaned from just talking about this sort of thing. It reveals a lot about us and our culture. And right now we see a pretty obvious shoving away of anything considered "immature" and a hearty hand-hold on anything deemed "mature." As we all know, the modern definition of what makes something "mature" is so ridiculous it's really not even funny. So, perhaps this isn't Nintendo's problem at all, in that it's not something they have to fix: they just have to wait for people to wise up again. I understand what everyone's saying about how the N-fans grew up and into two different camps, and yet I still remember when people of all ages loved Nintendo. Perhaps this is still possible. There is but a small problem: getting all those anti-Nintendo types to swallow their machismo and try Nintendo out again, without fearing whether or not their social clubs will object. ;-) Just kiddin' frat guys!
Post by: cubist on February 15, 2003, 04:56:55 AM
If Nintendo wants a piece of the market back, then unfortunately, they have to evolve with today's generation. However, if they are happy with their place in the market, which isn't half bad in terms of profit, then by all means continue with the same business philosophy. As for you and I, the Nintendo gamer bred from the NES and SNES era, pretty soon we will become relics of this industry and placed along Pong, Dragon's Lair, and Pac Man at the Smithsonian.
Post by: Sean on February 15, 2003, 09:14:28 AM
Cubist, it seems you really nailed it in that last post. The "classic" gamers have such a starkly different perspective that we have to wade through all sorts of nostalgia and baggage before we can arrive at any sort of truth. On top of that, our experience with games is much more far-reaching and wide-ranging, and this gives us, by default, first-hand knowledge that better informs our opinions.
That said, I hate to get all self-righteous, especially when it comes to talking about video-games, because what games were always meant for was to entertain us, and we all know that entertainment changes when it moves from a niche to mass markets. With that come fads and debates and laws and controversies and arguments concerning the nature of art and on and on and on. If you really dig into it, there's much to learn from it all, as with any form of pop-culture. Yet, in the end, if you're having fun, I guess that's good enough! ;-)
So, yes, a time capsule. That's a good place for this.
Post by: Gamer Donkey on February 18, 2003, 02:59:27 AM
Post by: VideoGamerJ on February 18, 2003, 11:33:40 AM
-Super Mario World
-Sonic the Hedgehog
-The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
-Super Mario 64
-Pokemon Blue and Red (Maybe)
-Goldeneye
-Final Fantasy 7
-The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Now, I'm a major fan of some of these. I believe that even though Nintendo may not recieve the user base they deserve, it's obvious that gamers that do not play Nintendo games will be missing out on really great games. If you look at some of the greatest games with mass popularity, you'll find Nintendo holds almost all of those games. Sure GTA was a game and it was fun, but I would not go out by saying that it shaped anything.
