Post by: tjn4681 on June 21, 2004, 04:44:04 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on June 21, 2004, 04:56:28 PM
Post by: tjn4681 on June 21, 2004, 05:05:13 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on June 21, 2004, 08:16:19 PM
I've seen some of the PSX's overpriced single-disk-per-port versions of these games, and the entire "navi mode" is completely useless. Unless you like playing side scrollers with a blinking red arrow yelling "Keep going right!" at you the entire time. Until you actually feel like backtracking for something, at which point it starts telling you you're "going the wrong way".
AFAIK, the "remixed music" in the PSX versions could be turned off or on in the options at the start of the game. Supposedly halfway through the series of ports, Capcom got lazy, and stopped bothering including remixed music in them (making the later PSX ones COMPLETELY useless overpriced ports).
I actually didn't like the remixed music. It seemed out of place, and would just run for about a minute or two before stopping and having to restart (with loading times, of course). If there's no remixed music in the GameCube version (and I guess there isn't), then I can't say I'll care, but I do know that a lot of people are going to take shots at Nintendo's "insufficent" disk size because of it.
Edit: My bitter, Nintendo-hating brother was just reading over my shoulder, and is of the impression that it makes perfect sense, because the %$@* GameCube has no Dolby Digital output port, so there's no point in bothering to have remixed music in the GameCube version. I pointed out that it's most likely the remixed music from the PSX version of the game, and that certainly didn't need any Dolby Digital, but he just beliggerantly said that the PSX had Dolby Digital, and walked off, which makes me shake my head, but can probably tell you something about what the common idiot will think of this development.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 21, 2004, 09:05:19 PM
Iwata-san: "ROR!"
raugh out roud, people!
Post by: Ian Sane on June 21, 2004, 09:08:47 PM
If the Cube version is missing the remixed music than it suggests to me that the PS2 versions was ready first and the Cube port was rushed to get both out to the market. If so that's pretty screwed up since Nintendo fans MADE Mega Man while Sony originally prevented Mega Man 8 from being released in North America because it's 2D. Capcom should get their priorities straight.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 21, 2004, 11:04:02 PM
Post by: darknight06 on June 21, 2004, 11:41:54 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on June 22, 2004, 12:33:22 AM
Post by: MattVDB on June 22, 2004, 04:14:08 AM
Post by: darknight06 on June 22, 2004, 07:16:02 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on June 22, 2004, 12:22:28 PM
The Capcom rep says:
"R&D was asked why the GameCube version of Mega Man Anniversary Collection does not have the same remixed music in the Navi Mode as found in the PlayStation 2 version.
It seems there was a disc space problem. The GameCube disc just does not have the same amount of space that a PlayStation 2 DVD has.
Even using the best video and audio compression technologies, simply having 10 games on one disc the 20+ minutes of video in Mega Man 8 and the 20 minutes of video for the extra interview, there was just no room to have the remixed audio in the Navi mode of Mega Man 1 - 6 on a GameCube disc. There is, however, separate remixed tracks that can be found in the secrets area as the game is played through and secrets are unlocked."
I say bullsh!t. If disc space is an issue than Capcom is just being too f*cking lazy with the port job. There's no way in HELL that those old games plus the remixed songs take up more than a Cube disc of space. Mega Man 8 is the only title on here that was an optical disc game in the first place. I'm guessing Capcom made the PS2 version and then used there own instaport software to make the Cube version and thus since the port wasn't optimized it took up too much room. Or they rushed the Cube release and used this as an excuse. Or Sony paid them off to make a better version. No matter what this is a slap in the face to the Nintendo fanbase that made Mega Man a success in the first place.
It's situations like this that show that next gen Nintendo has to match the disc and memory card capacity of the PS3. This isn't their fault since a Cube disc should be easily big enough for something like this but they're getting screwed over by lazy third parties (memory card issue is the same thing) so they might as well ensure that it can't happen next gen.
Post by: Bartman3010 on June 22, 2004, 12:32:51 PM
In other words, those pre-recorded NES songs are taking up a lot of space for what little they do.
Brilliant move, Capcom, brilliant.
Post by: mjbd on June 22, 2004, 02:08:18 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 22, 2004, 02:52:32 PM
Idiots. Should've used FORKING DivX!!!!11
And are 48KHz LAME-encoded mp3's too much to ask for?
Post by: Infernal Monkey on June 22, 2004, 02:54:59 PM
"Hey, we could have just put this unlockable music in the game as you play, like the PS2 version!"
"No way Klax Wave, let's get lunch!"
Post by: darknight06 on June 22, 2004, 03:05:52 PM
Post by: joshnickerson on June 22, 2004, 05:16:30 PM
Post by: Chongman on June 22, 2004, 06:56:08 PM
gaaaah
seriously...its just plain laziness...
I dont understand this, there are so many ways past this dumb insignificant problem called disk space...
this pisses me off...just when i started warming up to capcom GC support...wtf
Post by: Forte on June 22, 2004, 10:03:36 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on June 22, 2004, 11:52:31 PM
Just be happy the collection is actually on GameCube. Poor Xboxers(horts) got no Megaman love at all. =O
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 23, 2004, 12:00:36 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on June 23, 2004, 07:24:28 AM
I wouldn't really use the remixed music either but it's the principle of the whole thing. Capcom did a lazy job of porting these titles to the Cube and and as a result we get a lesser product than the PS2 does. That's worth complaining about even if the Cube version is still good.
Post by: Forte on June 23, 2004, 07:34:23 AM
Post by: CHEN on June 23, 2004, 07:38:35 AM
Yeah I'm pretty furious at Capcom USA for using bad compression techniques. I mean MM 1-6 were NES games for Christ's sake. I think it had something to do with MM8 and its PS1 code. They were too lazy to find a better solution for porting it. I mean can you believe MM8 takes 650 MB of space? And the thing about inversing the controls makes it highly suspicious Capcom USA was smoking something, are really stupid and/or got a lot of cash from Sony. Makes me want to jam the NES controller in a GCN port and play the games they were ment to be.
What I most fear is that the GCN sales will suffer because of this. I've seen this happen in countless other boards. And Capcom blaming on Nintendo and drop their support. That would be the ultimate doom scenario, and I fear it. I personally don't mind the lack of remixed music in-game. I always loved nostalgia. But I fear a lot of other people do mind. Ugh...
Post by: Syl on June 23, 2004, 08:37:38 AM
I have around 80 megaman remix's on my computer, i can deal without the <expletive deleted>y ones being played in navi mode (which i doubt i'll play anyway, because of everything else it does)
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 23, 2004, 09:41:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Syl
After hearing some of the remix's, i can do without. They somehow butchered the megaman 2 soundtrack, that was enough for me to no longer care.
I have around 80 megaman remix's on my computer, i can deal without the <expletive deleted>y ones being played in navi mode (which i doubt i'll play anyway, because of everything else it does)
If they butchered MM2's, then good riddance.
However, I'm still glad the GCN version gets the interview footage -- good for the fans who really do appreciate the franchise and its roots (the craptastic PSX selections of the franchise doesn't count).
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 23, 2004, 12:54:26 PM
I got another free t-shirt from Capcom again, yay. It's black and all it says is Capcom, yay. It's almost as good as my P.N.03 t-shirt.
Geek.lifemeter++;
I also got another cool Capcom brochure and a useless miniposter that supposed to remind me of Mega Dude's PSX outings. *barf*
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 23, 2004, 01:22:39 PM
MORONS.
~~~~~
AH I UNDERSTAND NOW, WHOEVER DID THESE PORTS SIMPLY *DON'T KNOW* HOW TO PLAY MEGA MAN GAMES, OR THEY SIMPLY SUCK AT THEM. I'M SURPRISED THEY DIDN'T MAKE Z-BUTTON JUMP, AND THE C-STICK SHOOT.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 23, 2004, 01:52:07 PM
They probably thought the a button was a good choice for shoot because it's bigger than the other buttons. It's still a moronic decision though.
Let's see:
1. The game is missing remixed music because of the lower Cube disc space.
2. The controls suck because Capcom got confused by the Cube controller button layout.
All that's left is for the game to take up a whole memory card and Capcom has the "ruined-Cube-game-because-of-seemingly-insignificant-differences-from-the-PS2" hat trick.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 23, 2004, 02:16:27 PM
Unbelievably, Ann. Col.'s auto-fire button was mapped to GCN's Y-button -- with B for jumping (so so far away it is...). This is MIND-FORKING-STUPID. If Mega Man X was part of this collection, it would miserably be UNPLAYABLE.
Dammit, I hope Mega Man 7's button config is still intact.
Post by: joshnickerson on June 23, 2004, 03:46:09 PM
Oh, Capcom... you were actually doing so well in my eyes... then you do this. Un-freakin-believeable... I actually have other issues with this game, but that can wait.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 23, 2004, 03:57:52 PM
OH SUCH SIN THIS DISC HAS!
WHAT WENT WRONG?!~!~
Post by: Djunknown on June 23, 2004, 04:35:36 PM
Big Fat Class-Action Lawsuit! Then again, a bunch of gaming geeks like ourselvers seeking punitive damages...well... ahh screw it, but it was a good idea at the time!
I was wondering what happend after I put Navi-Mode on just to hear the tracks....Then I checked the sound options menu and just saw volume bars. I'm with the I-don't-really-care-but-its-the-principle-that-counts group here.
Hate to sound campy, but looks like Nintendo is the Rodney Dangerfield of gaming: It gets no respect at all.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on June 23, 2004, 04:54:09 PM
Then again, so does the fact that this game won't go on sale here till like, October and it's going to cost $110 AUD ($76-ish US or something)
Tee hee, I have more to angst about! :linkinpark:
Post by: joshnickerson on June 23, 2004, 05:07:08 PM
I was stoked about this collection, even with the shortcomings, but this whole controller mishap has ruined the whole experience.
Post by: darknight06 on June 23, 2004, 05:53:30 PM
This is going to be a fairly large post, and I'm going to be quite anal about some things in it so as it stands, you were warned.
I've finally gotten a hold of the game and to say that I'm less than impressed isn't even touching on the surface. Where to start...
The good: IT'S MEGAMAN 1-8 Contrary to a previous rumor, every game has it's own save meaning you don't have to overwrite one save for another game save.
The bad: read on, cuz some of it gets ugly...
Controls: A=B B=A
Won't even get into them. You'll either like it or not.
Music and sound.
NES games sound OK. Only issue I have is some off sounds here and there. 6 has the Japanese intro music which strangely cuts off about halfway through the damn intro. 7 and 8 are another story. Parts of 7 and 8's music has been CUT!!! Just the beginnings so far, but still. 7's lacking an instrument. They had to be using a custom emulator for 7's music cuz it sucks. The tone is off on a lot of the tracks. 7 and 8 both skip like crazy at times. NO REMIXES SO FAR ON CUBE. Some of 8's sound effects are ear blowingly louder than they're supposed to be. Some voice samples were cut back on too, Search Man seems to be the huge offender here. Horrid editing job on both 7 and 8's music overall. Lot of the sound in all games sound muffled. None of the music infinte loops either, which now explains their file size. Stupid atomic planet didn't reconfigure the music files so that they could infinite loop seamlessly like you'd hear in JUST ABOUT EVERY GAME THIS GEN.
Graphics
1-6 OK. Navi mode kills all slowdown and flicker. New health/weapon bars.
7 almost OK. Transparency fade ins and outs on dialogues look horrible now. Cloud man's stage when it gets dark now just changes dark, there's no transistion like in the SNES. Slowdown during fade ins and outs WEREN'T IN THE ORIGINAL.
8 loses it's transistions with one exception between menu screen and the period before Megaman teleports into the stage. Once again, slowdown on fade effects. SLOWDOWN ON BOSS FIGHTS!!! WTF. NEXT GEN SYSTEM PEOPLE, INEXCUSABLE.
Extras So far
Homage to Megaman (the theme that they used for the trailer.)
Megaman's Drum and Bass (A remix of Megaman 3's intro music)
Picture Set 1
Atomic Planet Entertainment Credits
Glitches:
ALL GONE.
Overall Viewpoint thus far:
Megaman 1-6 are the most enjoyable games on this collection so far, given that they were ports of a port made by COJ, so they couldn't go too wrong. 7 and 8 feel like they were almost just slapped on at the last minute. Especially 7 where I just realized it had SLOWDOWN too. Yes, you heard me, an SNES port with SLOWDOWN. If you do buy this still, just get it for 1-6. Only play 7 and 8 for the unlockable content. I was only ticked off by the lack of remixes earlier because I assumed the games would be perfect or near perfect. As it stands, the remixes wouldn't save 7 for anything, though it would've been nice for 4-6 since they actually came out like they should.
Despite 1-6 being good, this is still a dissapointment, you would thnk that games from the NES and SNES would've been ported perfectly to a recent console these days given their specs. I might be able to understand 7 and 8 if they were emulated, but as ports they're lowsy. And as good as 1-6 was, their sound should've been on the spot perfect. I'm almost afraid to unlock the arcade games as bad as 7 and 8 were. I'm not the biggest advocate for emulation, but my suggestion maybe to hold on to those roms, isos, whatever you have of the games. A true testament to lazines, if I do say so myself.
Post by: Bartman3010 on June 23, 2004, 07:55:28 PM
There, all isnt lost.
Oh, and Mega Man games pretty much needed 4 buttons, yes it sucks you cant change the A and B config. Go blame Atomic Planet.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 23, 2004, 08:28:36 PM
We still gotta blame Capcom for letting this tragedy 'go gold'.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 23, 2004, 08:55:03 PM
Considering they didn't mention either issue I'm pretty sure they only played the PS2 version. A lot of the major sites do that. In fact I'm surprised it was Gamespot that brought these issues forward in the first place since they're notorious for cut-and-paste reviews.
"Yes, you heard me, an SNES port with SLOWDOWN."
Considering how notorious the SNES was for slowdown you might say this is fact a really accurate port.
I haven't found a store that has it yet but just looking at all the issues darknight06 brings forward I'm giving this purchase a second thought. Since it's clear that this was nothing but a cheap cash-in port I'm thinking I may just buy it used sometime down the road or buy it after a price drop.
Post by: darknight06 on June 23, 2004, 09:05:05 PM
Update:
Stereo effects in Megaman 7 and 8 are gone.
Mega Man the Power Fighters is for the most part somewhat OK. However, the arcade's stereo sound is gone, and there's quite a bit of slowdown in the games when a lot of stuff gets on screen. This didn't happen in the arcade btw. Otherwise, one of the better ports. It at least sounds accurate and wasn't subjected to horrible sound editing.
Just unlocked Power Battles. This is probably the best port alongside Megaman 1-6. Very faithful, no slowdown. Sound editing is near perfect aside from a couple screwy sounds.
Post by: ruby_onix on June 24, 2004, 01:11:49 AM
The first thing to know is that Capcom remixed a bunch of classic Megaman tunes for the two arcade games (which were only a few megabytes, but sounded much better than 8-bit NES).
When Capcom decided to port the NES games into single overpriced PSX games, they included the remixed tunes. If you hold in "select" when selecting the Navi Mode, the game will use any available remake instead of the classic tunes. However, there weren't enough remakes to cover the entire games. Like, for example, Bombman's stage doesn't have any remixed music.
The remixes sound better than I remember, but they still feel out of place among all the 8-bit graphics. And it's only made worse by the constant swapping back to the original tunes when there isn't a replacement available for something.
The PSX games all seem to weigh in at about 300-400 megabytes each. When looking at the contents of the disk in my PC, about 90% of that is taken up by the remixed musics, 10% is taken up by the unlockable image galleries, with less than 1% making up the actual game. That is clearly a blatant abuse of space. But, I guess Capcom didn't care, because they were already wasting the entire CDs on several-kilobyte games.
Considering that Megaman 8 is reportedly the Sony-censored PSX version, instead of the superior Sega Saturn version, I would say that the first six games, and Megaman 8, are all being run off a PSX emulator (or they just used some cut-rate "PSX to PS2/GCN" port generating system).
Considering that the PSX games were all around 350 megabytes, you can multiply that by seven. I'm guessing the PSX games in this collection took up a little over two gigabytes. Add a few megabytes for the SNES game and two arcade games, and you've got the reason why the GameCube version was boned by Capcom. The GameCube disks are 1.5 gigs. The PS2 DVDs are 4.5 gigs. This collection they slapped together is maybe 2.5 gigs.
Instead of fixing the horribly-bloated audio (or making it a two-disk game), they just chopped the remixed audio from the GameCube version. Suddenly the game is less than half a gigabyte.
By the way, the PSX versions let you fully customize the button layout in the options menu. I had planned to get the GameCube version, and play it with a Nyko Playcube, which should have resulted in a control setup exactly equal to the default PSX version (which is as good as the NES originals, but with a more comfy ergonomic style), even without customizable buttons, but Capcom completely ruined that by forking with the "A & B" position.
Congrats Capcom! You just lost a sale! If anything, I might get the PS2 version. But really, why bother?
Oh yeah and, I had planned to get the GameCube version over the PS2 version in part because the "exclusive interview" sounded better than the "episode of the lame 80's cartoon series", but from what I've heard, the interview was produced for Capcom by "G4". I haven't seen any G4 myself (not available in Canada), but I've heard nothing but bad things about them. I'm not basing my version decision on that (my decision has already been made, by the cut audio, and forked-up controls), but I just thought I'd toss that out, for anyone who hasn't heard.
By the way, the PSX games had bonus PocketStation content (as if anyone has one of those things). How much does anyone want to bet that it has not been converted into GBA-connectivity content?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 24, 2004, 03:00:29 AM
Intro loads up. Music is pretty close to that of the original, though something seems missing. Some sounds effects are slightly different or lack the same effect of the original. Overall, THE INTRO'S TIMING WAS OFF AND ENDED AHEAD OF THE SOUNDTRACK. Some sprite layer inconsistencies are present. Some sprites are scaled improperly.
Title screen. The Stereo Sound option is gone. WTF. At the time, I did not pay enough attention to my surround setup to discern any stereo effects from the game.
Demo screen. Weather fades are non-existent. One moment it's clear, a split second later it's raining with no visual transition.
Intro stage. Character and object sprites are "blurrier" or simply just not as sharp as the backgrounds/platforms. More "strange" sound effects are heard. There's SLOWDOWN at quite a few places that traditionally NEVER HAD SLOWDOWN, and it's not even time to play the damn game yet!
Control Issues: Burst Man stage. B and A buttons don't do what my '15 years of Mega Man experience and instincts' want them to do. I work my way to the underwater portions of the stage in less than a minute. Controls are funky, but I'm surviving. I reach areas that have deadly spikes lying along the ceilings. I engage in heated battles with aquatic Hard Hat Mac's. My initial response to their offensive:
I JUMP STRAIGHT UP INTO THE FORKING SPIKES AND DIE.
WTF
END OF TONIGHT'S GAME. I turned off my GameCube.
My early conclusions: Capcom has managed to sell me a collection of ports of some of their classic, cornerstone games. Remarkably, Capcom managed to deliver (hey, they're the ones ultimately responsible for quality checking) a product, Mega Man 7, THAT LOOKS, SOUNDS, AND PLAYS WORSE THAN THE ORIGINAL INCARNATION DESPITE THE GIGANTIC LEAP IN CONSOLE TECHNOLOGY. All these game seem unplayable to me.
Mega Man 7 plays like ass.
Why not just rename it to ASS MAN 7 ??
Has anyone figured out how to unlock the interview yet? My reasons for keeping this game are disappearing fast.
Post by: CHEN on June 24, 2004, 03:29:11 AM
Post by: joshnickerson on June 24, 2004, 03:46:41 AM
For some strange reason, I think Megaman 8 may be the most playable, because for some reason Jump is assigned to the X button as well, but only for this game.
I've calmed down a bit since last night, but I'm still steamed that Capcom pretty much cheated me out of thirty bucks. I looked forward to this game for MONTHS and they ruined it over one dumb control decision. Not to mention the tons of other little things wrong with this game. You'd think they'd have a bit more respect for their most beloved mascot.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 24, 2004, 05:44:12 AM
Post by: Syl on June 24, 2004, 06:50:20 AM
http://boards.ign.com/Mega_Man/b6002/61079163/?6
I hate linking to an IGN board, but just read the post, the guy emailed the people who made the game. HOW THE HELL CAN YOU MAKE NES GAMES TAKE UP 618 MEGS OF SPACE?
Post by: darknight06 on June 24, 2004, 09:09:53 AM
Simple, you port the games instead of emulate them.
To professional666:
Yeah, I'm still reeling from what they did with 7. Another thing I'm noticing is that the same engine used on 7's port seems to have been used for 8 and the arcade games and it shows whenever they go to do a similar effect. Despite what I said about the 2 arcade games being OK, they're still worse than they were on their original hardware. Remixes? Bah, remixes wouldn't have saved this crap.
Post by: WesDawg on June 24, 2004, 09:26:24 AM
Anyways, I ain't played a MegaMan game since MegaManX came out, so I'm doubting the control issue will bother me, and I think I'd rather play the old school games than the remixed sound anyways. This slowdown kinda shocks me though. How come I haven't seen it mentioned in any reviews at all? Have none of them even bothered to boot up MM8 or is it just some crazed MegaMan fan being a bit anal?
Post by: darknight06 on June 24, 2004, 09:45:41 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on June 24, 2004, 09:56:19 AM
Not so much not care but just not notice. I'm sure Mega Man 7 as it is on the collection is perfectly playable and is a great game. It's just not 100% accurate and the SNES version is superior. If you're unaware of that you're not going to consider it a flaw.
I think that for any sort of re-release the major review sites should get someone really familiar with the original material to review it. Otherwise they just miss things like this. If you're a fan you care about changes. I for example would NEVER purchase the GBA version of Super Mario World because it has inferior voice samples and was altered to be made much easier. I think I read maybe one review ever that mentioned those things. All the other reviews just stated "this kicks ass" and that was that.
I understand when people get upset when a reviewer lowers a score because of the absence of features that were not promised but the reviewer felt should have been included (IGN's Mario Kart: DD review is a perfect example of this) but in the case of a port there's a frame of reference. Therefore changes and missing features are worth noting. Even without the screwed up controls and the missing music I would dock marks from this just because it includes the PSX version of Mega Man 8 instead of the Saturn version that has more content. Reviewers didn't even mention that and that's not something that only hardcore fans would notice. Do even a little research on the games in this collection and you'll know that.
Post by: darknight06 on June 24, 2004, 10:25:28 AM
That is true. However, I could understand some imperfections in sound, graphics, whatnot if this was emulated. However, this was ported!!! Many more complicated games get ports from one thing to another and they still 85% of the times come out better than what happened here. This is an old game. Capcom had the resources for the original game, since THEY MADE IT!!! There's no reason for any imperfections. Especially for the shot repel one I forgot to mention earlier. When you hit an enemy invincible to your buster shot, the shot bounces off REEEEEAL slow, rendering your gun useless for what sometimes appears to be a whole 4 seconds. Believe me, this was not the way the original was.
I apologize if I appear to be extremely anal with my observations, but you would think that with 2 delays of the product, it'd be nothing less than perfect. Especially given the series they were doing this for. Apparently, even the blue bomber can't get a break these days.
Post by: ruby_onix on June 24, 2004, 01:34:27 PM
This is the standard way that an NES controller was supposed to be held. (Thumb positions roughly drawn in bright green with MSPaint.) You're supposed to rock your thumb left or right to press a button.
But if you held the controller like this, then any light twitch of your thumb-tip would trigger the "B" button, and depressing you thumb would trigger the "A" button. This was extremely useful for lightning-quick fire control in a game like Megaman, and let you easily fire while jumping at the same time (instead of the "one or the other" effect you get by rocking your thumb back and forth). The odd-looking position of your right hand is really not bad, if you let the controller turn slightly clockwise (but you can't look at it while playing, or you'll get distracted).
Since the classic square-brick NES controller, Nintendo has been trying to make it more comfortable to use the "standard" position, by giving the buttons a small turn counter-clockwise, which makes it even harder to use the "twitch" position.
The SNES controller has that slant, but by adding a second row of buttons, Nintendo invented a perfect "twitch gaming" setup, where you could use the "B" and "Y" buttons, like you used to use the "A and "B".
The GameCube controller abandoned the SNES style (well actually, the N64 did it first, but the GameCube did it too), but with some minor old-school effort, you can still play the "twitch gamer" way.
But of course, Capcom messed that up by changing the buttons layout for no good reason. It's still possible of course, but you'd have to play like this, which would probably break your wrists.
Capcom's swap of the "A" and "B" buttons messes with people who played the "standard" way to a lesser degree, by just making things feel backwards.
Since Sony's controller is an evolution of the SNES controller, the PSone (and likely PS2) versions of the games use the "perfect twitch gaming" setup of using the "B" and "Y" buttons that the SNES invented (although Sony invented stupid new button names for them, which will probably overtake the SNES names, in terms of popularity, sometime soon).
Does everyone get that? Was it clear enough?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 24, 2004, 01:48:14 PM
This situation gives me an idea for the Revolution. In a perfect world all games should have customizable controls. But unfortunately that's not often the case and with most games if you don't like the controls you're screwed. So therefore with their next console Nintendo should add the flexibility right in the system. Just like how that menu the comes up when holding the A button at load up allows you to set the screen size, date, etc. you would be able to customize the controller. By default the A button would be the A button but you could go in and set it so that the B button does whatever the A button does. It's like assigning the controls in an emulator. Naturally each controller port would have it's own settings. Just by adding this Nintendo could automatically ensure that every single Revolution game has some control customization.
Post by: ruby_onix on June 24, 2004, 02:00:57 PM
Quote
So therefore with their next console Nintendo should add the flexibility right in the system. Just like how that menu the comes up when holding the A button at load up allows you to set the screen size, date, etc. you would be able to customize the controller.
That's a damn good idea.
By the way, something else I noticed to stir up some extra drama. From that Atomic Planet letter-response posted in the IGN thread:
Quote
Both versions were developed side by side and in fact the GameCube version was the first to be completed.
The game was delayed repeatedly, and the GameCube version was done before the PS2 version.
Methinks that the PS2's problem in that it can't handle a port to/from anything (including the PSX, apparently) has reared it's ugly head again.
The PS2 versions was probably buggy as hell. Did they delay the game compensate for that? Yep.
The GameCube version doesn't have the disk space for 7 CDs worth of MIDI-turned-Redbook audio. Did they delay the game to compensate for that? Hell no. Just slash the audio out of the game.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 24, 2004, 03:37:17 PM
WesDawg: If you're playing these games as if they were new to you and you're learning the controls from a fresh start, then I can understand the controls shouldn't be too much of a problem. But, quite a few of us expect a high degree of precision and responsiveness that Mega Man gameplay is traditionally known for, and we've managed to verify that these "backwards" controls do not yield the effectiveness of the tried-and-true "twitch gaming" control scheme, which Ruby detailed.
For reference, I own and played Mega Man X, X2, and X3 (all SNES) to death. They're most effectively played with the "Y-B-A" (SNES) setup where (Y:xbuster, B:jump, A: Dash). Thanks to the "diamond" configuration of the SNES face buttons, I can cover Y, B, and A with my thumb so I can manage to 1) Charge the X-Buster/weapon 2) Dash and 3) Jump all in the same motion without lifting your thumb. Alternatively, I could charge a weapon while simultaneously Dash-Jumping off a while Mega Man X was sliding down it). If the Mega Man Ann. Col. (GCN)'s backwards controls were forced upon the Mega Man X games, they'd be practically unplayable, in other words you wouldn't be able to realize Mega Man's gameplay potential and you'll see him perform miserably. There isn't an intuitive way for your thumb to reach the buttons in a meaningful order to execute the variety of actions. If there's any chance i'd play those games well, I'd have to use a "3-finger arcade setup".
If there's any chance of me playing the games in MM Ann Col ever again, it'll be using a "3-finger arcade setup".
Post by: joshnickerson on June 24, 2004, 05:17:37 PM
Post by: Djunknown on June 24, 2004, 06:03:18 PM
I've been trudging through MegaMan I, and got Wily's stage one. I would ask for some tips against Yellow Devil, but that's another thread...
Control wise, I'm fine with it. I just use autofire all the time, it gives me that extra edge.
A simple suggestion: For those demanding twitch prescision, why not use your fingers? two fingers are faster than one thumb...
Post by: Urkel on June 24, 2004, 06:31:46 PM
Even though I may not be used to playing Mega Man games, I'm sure this whole A button, B button garbage would throw me off, too. Virtually every NES game I ever played had you jump with the A button, and shoot/attack with the B button. Surely, it must've crossed the minds of the people making this game at least once that this control scheme might be... awkward for some people, so why they didn't add a customizable control scheme is beyond me.
Not including the remixed tracks is just more ammo for Nintendo haters.
NES games taking up hundreds of Megabytes is beyond absurdity. Why? Why not just use an NES emulator?
Let's all hope that if this game doesn't sell well on the Cube, that Capcom doesn't draw the conclusion that Mega Man games don't sell on the Cube, but rather that flawed ports don't sell.
Please, Capcom. Don't go Konami on us.
Post by: darknight06 on June 24, 2004, 07:41:40 PM
Anyhow, I guess you can say I've calmed down a little bit too. The controls don't really bother me all that much anymore, though I still have to stop myself every once in a while from hitting B when i want to hit A.. If you do get the collection, my opinion still stands, get it for 1-6. Right now those 6 alone are saving this collection from being traded in for something else
FOR THE PURISTS...
On Shade Man stage when you get to Bass, the dialogue been "cleaned up" so to speak. Funny thing was, after all the crap I witnessed beforehand, this came as no surprise.
P.S. I guess I can't really be all that mad about this though, especially considering that because of a screwup on preorders I ended up getting Four Swords for FREE!!!!!!!
Post by: mjbd on June 24, 2004, 09:21:51 PM
Post by: joshnickerson on June 25, 2004, 04:25:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: darknight06
FOR THE PURISTS...
On Shade Man stage when you get to Bass, the dialogue been "cleaned up" so to speak. Funny thing was, after all the crap I witnessed beforehand, this came as no surprise.
Oh, I've got a friend who is such a huge Megaman freak, he's bought the PS2 version and actually told me every single thing that was different between the original games and these "ports" so far... it's eerie...
Post by: Chode2234 on June 25, 2004, 06:56:02 AM
What is so great about them and do you reccomend I go out and get this disc and why?
Post by: Chode2234 on June 25, 2004, 06:57:10 AM
What is so great about them and do you reccomend I go out and get this disc and why?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 25, 2004, 07:17:28 AM
What does "cleaned up" mean? Did he used to swear or something? "Step off Shade b!tch or I'll beat your @ss mutha f*cka!"
Post by: darknight06 on June 25, 2004, 08:48:33 AM
"Damn, I was careless" to
"DARN, i was careless."
Thought I'd point it out for the purists.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 25, 2004, 11:00:56 AM
'Damn, I was careless' to
'DARN, i was careless.'"
Lame. Remember when Mega Man was a mainstream franchise aimed at general gaming audiences instead of niche franchise aimed at children? Those were the days.
Post by: mjbd on June 25, 2004, 12:52:16 PM
Post by: Djunknown on June 25, 2004, 06:24:38 PM
On a side note, The intials H.M.D are in the credits. Remember the shirt regular Joe wears in Viewtiful Joe? Talk about an obscure reference.
It can only get easier from here. I never got the chance to play 2, but 3 and 4 are old hat to me. Can't imagine the rest get more masochistic than 1....
Anyone try that finger setup? I used it in a couple instances (Beggining of Wily's Stage one and against that bubbly thing with the bricks in the middle.), and I found helpful when I needed that prescion.
Post by: darknight06 on June 25, 2004, 07:24:24 PM
About the remixes. I decided to do a little bit of a play with my speakers, have one set for just the game's sound effects and the other for the music. So far I've only played MM6 like this since that's the only one I have the tracks for at this moment.
The first part of the game, the remixes don't help it too much. Honorable mention goes to Knightman and PlantMan's remixes, but that's as far as I'll take it. It's not until part 2 where it gets extremely good. Wily boss battle remix makes for a remarkable final showdown.
I hear 4 and 5's music were much better remixes overall, but I've yet to hear those so I can't make a real judgement on those particular ones yet.
I will say one thing, this has gotta be some of the best gaming I've done this gen, bar none.
Post by: darknight06 on June 26, 2004, 12:11:47 AM
I don't know if you've beaten Megaman 7 yet, but if you haven't I hope you didn't like the watching the credits in the original too much. Why? Because, for whatever reason, it's completely BLANK now. No Megaman walking away from a mode 7 explosion, no Robot listing as the credits go by, NOTHING.
To all else:
Now I know somebody at Atomic Planet didn't know what they were doing. Notice that in Megaman 7 and 8, any effect that was hardware specific was eradicated. 7's mode 7 fire effect, and ALL of 8's polygonal transition effects on speech boxes and the openings of stages and the weapon menu are gone.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm still enjoying the heck out of this for 1-6.
Post by: Syl on June 26, 2004, 07:27:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"It's really nothing all that big, but Bass's line went from...
'Damn, I was careless' to
'DARN, i was careless.'"
Lame. Remember when Mega Man was a mainstream franchise aimed at general gaming audiences instead of niche franchise aimed at children? Those were the days.
Do you really think a line like that is such a big deal? Thats taking the "blood and guts" sell games approach, So what if they censor cussing, it doesn't affect the DARN gameplay at all.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 26, 2004, 08:19:11 AM
Had it always been "darn" I wouldn't care and wouldn't push for "damn". I just don't like censorship or any sort of change in a port that isn't the result of hardware limitations. These ports should be absolutely perfect.
Post by: darknight06 on June 26, 2004, 09:55:34 AM
Here's the thing. On the back of the original box, not one of the features were "CURSING IN DIALOGUE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE MEGAMAN SERIES!" However, what surprises me is that the original game was rated KA and the word wasn't edited it out then. I only really want to know, why now?
Thing is, if 7 weren't so screwed up I probably wouldn't have even mentioned it. This isn't like MK1 SNES/Genesis where the SNES ver. was dogged for having no blood despite being the overall better version.
Quick edit: Some of these people on a few of the other message boards are insane. This one guy claims the wording was changed because they wanted to cater to Nintendo's kiddy image... *shakes head*
Post by: foolish03 on June 26, 2004, 07:51:37 PM
Post by: mmortal03 on June 29, 2004, 02:13:17 PM
Post by: darknight06 on June 29, 2004, 03:08:43 PM
