Post by: akdaman1 on April 08, 2004, 01:48:38 PM
That was just posted on www.the-magicbox.com
Bloddy hell cant anything stay exclusive.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 08, 2004, 02:07:06 PM
No wonder third party games don't sell on the Cube. All the third parties treat us like sh!t.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 08, 2004, 02:08:20 PM
Can't they at least keep it exclusive in the U.S.?
DIE PAC-MAN PEOPEL1!!
Post by: Shift Key on April 08, 2004, 02:09:09 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 08, 2004, 02:10:18 PM
Post by: akdaman1 on April 08, 2004, 02:17:32 PM
Its was actually confirmed by V-Jump magazine. They sorta released the info before they were supposed to. Namco were about to have a confrence about the Tales of ....series on the 12th.
Anyway I say F**K NAMCO. F*ck Nintendo and F**k because I feel like t.
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 08, 2004, 02:23:05 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on April 08, 2004, 02:25:45 PM
Yeah. Something like "NO GBA FOR YOU TRAITOR!"
Post by: akdaman1 on April 08, 2004, 02:28:28 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on April 08, 2004, 02:36:29 PM
I can think of two theories:
1. When Nintendo was in charge they limited releases in North America too. Maybe Sony thinks they would do better if they copied Nintendo's formula more even if it's in a bad way. They're set to release a power glove next year.
2. Console evoluation states that when a console company becomes too powerful they make a lot of dumb mistakes that pisses everyone off. Atari did it. Nintendo did it. Now Sony must do it. They can't stop it. It's fate.
Actually I believe the real reason is that Sony has realized that there are too many PS2 games released and it's hurting overall software sales. Thus they're restricting the localization of Japanese titles they feel will have limited appeal. I think telling companies like Acclaim to stop making so much crap would be a better strategy but whatever.
I think that with the N5 NOA should start a publishing "label" for Nintendo that specializes in localizing obscure Japanese releases. That would really help third party relations and if a surprise hit comes out of it Sony would be caught with their dick hanging out.
Post by: Mario on April 08, 2004, 02:48:18 PM
This is a pretty (very) stupid move for Namco, considering how well Tales of Symphonia sold on GCN in Japan compared to the PS2 one and the PS2s userbase, and also considering how many US and PAL gamers are looking forward to ToS on GCN. But i have a feeling it wasn't entirely Namco's decision... god damn I hate Sony.
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"I wish Nintendo would use a little monetary incentive to keep some exclusives."
Yeah. Something like "NO GBA FOR YOU TRAITOR!"
"Oh well, we'll develop for PSP then."
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 08, 2004, 03:07:23 PM
Plus, it's not like we're not getting another Tales game anyway...(Tales of Legendia)
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 08, 2004, 03:15:28 PM
Quote
I think that with the N5 NOA should start a publishing "label" for Nintendo that specializes in localizing obscure Japanese releases. That would really help third party relations and if a surprise hit comes out of it Sony would be caught with their dick hanging out.
I completely agree. It's also why I'm glad that Nintendo is releasing a lot more games in North America that have typically remained Japanese exclusive, like Custom Robo, the Wars series, and Fire Emblem. Nintendo has a lot of really great franchises that simply haven't seen the light of day outside of Japan, and I'm really glad Nintendo is starting to get them some global exposure.
Quote
"Oh well, we'll develop for PSP then."
Unfortunately, I think you're right. While not being allowed to make GBA games would be a huge hit to Namco, it's nowhere near as serious as before, when the Gameboy was all there was.
Post by: Koopa Troopa on April 08, 2004, 03:19:54 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 08, 2004, 03:22:59 PM
How the heck did that ever become a Player's Choice title?
Post by: mjbd on April 08, 2004, 03:48:18 PM
Post by: joshnickerson on April 08, 2004, 04:07:20 PM
I don't know, I keep getting the feeling all these companies want to push Nintendo to going under then becoming a third party or something. Just bizarre.
Hopefully this will be an exclusive for Nintendo for a LITTLE while at least... as long as it has that blue triangle at the top of the box for about six months or so
Post by: Djunknown on April 08, 2004, 04:37:02 PM
I'd like to believe the theory that Sony found some money hats and gave them to Namco...
If I recall correctly, the game was so successful in Japan that it spurred 'Cube sales, outselling PS2 for a week or so! Why wouldn't Sony want to get a killer app?
Oh well, as long at its still locked for that July release, whatever....
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 08, 2004, 04:38:22 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on April 08, 2004, 05:02:51 PM
I honestly didn't mind that the GameCube wasn't getting games like Xenosaga and Tales of Destiny 2, because Namco was talking about how they were splitting their series. "Destiny" and it's spinoffs (started on the PSone) go to Sony. "Phantasia" and it's spinoffs (started on the SNES) go to Nintendo. Xenosaga for Sony, newcomer Baten Kaitos for Nintendo. That's a fair division. And it even had a sense of "lineage". Sequels aplenty, made to fit demand. If you really must own both branches, just buy a second console already.
But now the GameCube's getting screwed. Namco is saying, "Oh, if you want the best of everything, and don't wanna pony up for a second console, the just buy a PS2. Every game in existence will always end up on the PS2 anyways. We all knew it would happen."
You want diversity? Screw diversity! That way diversity will die, and you'll end up with a monopoly on diversity, which has to be a lot.
Namco's been putting more-than-half-assed effort into supporting the GameCube, and apparently they've been getting the sales figures to reward them for doing it. But, I guess they'd rather experience for themselves what happens when they dump half-assed crap on the GameCube. Everyone already knows what will happen, but you just know that Namco will blame us when it does, and use that as proof to keep dumping crap, or just kill their support altogether.
I don't mind if PS2 owners get a chance to play Symphonia. Seriously. And the GameCube version should be better anyways. But where the hell is our Tales of Destiny 2 then Namco?!? Our American division won't beat your games into nonexistence when they don't like your genre. NOA might actually even go so far as to publish the game for you, if you gave them the chance.
Quote
Plus, it's not like we're not getting another Tales game anyway...(Tales of Legendia)
Are you sure that one was real? There have been a number of conflicting "Tales game" rumors lately. (I don't remember if Legendia had a real source or not.)
Post by: Zeth on April 08, 2004, 05:09:33 PM
Post by: Berny on April 08, 2004, 05:27:37 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 08, 2004, 05:32:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ruby_onixQuote
Plus, it's not like we're not getting another Tales game anyway...(Tales of Legendia)
Are you sure that one was real? There have been a number of conflicting "Tales game" rumors lately. (I don't remember if Legendia had a real source or not.)
Famitsu reported it, so yeah... ^_^
And those who are cursing at Namco, please shut up...With the lack of third party support, you should be happy we are even getting such a great game... (and this is coming from the person most anticipating the game)
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 08, 2004, 05:38:54 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 08, 2004, 05:40:48 PM
But I'm a nice guy who doesn't like to bitch, so whatever...
Post by: akdaman1 on April 08, 2004, 05:51:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: BillQuote
Originally posted by: ruby_onixQuote
Plus, it's not like we're not getting another Tales game anyway...(Tales of Legendia)
Are you sure that one was real? There have been a number of conflicting "Tales game" rumors lately. (I don't remember if Legendia had a real source or not.)
Famitsu reported it, so yeah... ^_^
And those who are cursing at Namco, please shut up...With the lack of third party support, you should be happy we are even getting such a great game... (and this is coming from the person most anticipating the game)
Theres the problem. The GCN has lost 2 of its top 5 exclusives in the last 3 months ( Killer 7 and TOS ). WHY ?
I think the problem is Nintendo. They dont know how to *****n run a buisness. They dont understand that if you pay a little money then you make a little money. Sony on the other hand know this little rule and they buy exclusive titles. They bought a fair share of Square and know look. Square is mainly excluisive to them making MAJOR titles.
Im am so sick of this. Every morning I wake up to find out that another one of my favourite games is now being ported to PS2. God I cant bloody wait for my birthday. Get a PS2 and be done with the piece of sh*t called a gamecube.
Edit - I dont hate my cube. Im just really pissed of at the moment.
Post by: ruby_onix on April 08, 2004, 05:52:01 PM
Quote
if I were namco i'd like to sell more copies of TOS than the 350,000-450,000 it sold on gamecube ^_^
If I were Namco, and wanting more PS2 sales, I'd rather spend that porting time/money on making a new game on the PS2. It would most likely sell better than a "port", and wouldn't harm the sales of ToS, which also has a side-effect of increasing the potential market for a ToS sequel on the Cube.
Also, if you count the fact that the American version of ToS is widely anticipated and due out soon, while the American version of ToD2 is already dead before it started (thanks to Sony), ToS could potentially outsell ToD2. I really hope it does now (well, I did before too), just to stick it to Namco.
I really don't mind that the PS2 is getting more RPGs from Namco. It's a more-proven RPG market, and I have a PS2 myself, so I'm set either way. But why did they specifically have to get Symphonia? Because Sony is an evil bastard, and trying to make sure that the GameCube doesn't turn into "another RPG console", which makes me somewhat ashamed to even own a PS2. It feels like it's really not in my best interests to own one.
Post by: savanna03 on April 08, 2004, 05:53:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Zeth
if I were namco i'd like to sell more copies of TOS than the 350,000-450,000 it sold on gamecube ^_^
lol... you are right. hey what can you do. they are a big 3rd party publisher who doesnt care about loyalty 'cuz making money is very important to stay on business. (ex: ROCKSTAR on GTA franchises.) some people in here are over reacting a bit by saying "NINTENDO should shut them down from making GBA games." you cant do that anymore 'cuz by doing that, you will do more harm than helping. they should still get friendly with them in order to get consideration next time around. thats the stategy.
they dont need an exclusive big 3rd party franchise from a big 3rd party publisher aslong they can secure a time exclusive or a port. thats the only thing that matters and the 1st and 2nd party games from NINTENDO. but i like what NINTENDO are doing right now... they are shopping around for a small independent talent who has potential to bring a huge games... (KUJU, NSPACE, ZOONAMI, ALPHA DREAM, ETC.) i would rather have a brand new exclusive franchises than an old existing one any day. that is how u gain exclusive and LOYALTY from a 3rd party 'cuz big publisher doesn't give you one. my 2 cent.
Post by: Bloodworth on April 08, 2004, 05:55:09 PM
Post by: akdaman1 on April 08, 2004, 05:55:52 PM
They changed the Starry Heavens theme ( or whatever it was called ). This new theme sucks balls.
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 08, 2004, 05:57:56 PM
Post by: akdaman1 on April 08, 2004, 06:03:18 PM
http://www.gfdata.de/gamefront-temp/e3preview2004.html
P.S - I know its sorta off topic but I thought it will help ppl get over the pain of TOS.
Post by: Pale on April 08, 2004, 06:09:56 PM
Post by: savanna03 on April 08, 2004, 06:18:17 PM
i rather have a number of small new 3rd parties with potential by NINTENDO side than an old 3rd parties any time 'cuz you might never know that they will come up the next POKEMON, GTA, or HALO.
Post by: Pale on April 08, 2004, 06:19:39 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 08, 2004, 06:20:22 PM
2) I think the new theme fits quite well, moreso than I thought it would...
Post by: Ian Sane on April 08, 2004, 06:27:14 PM
They would be really stupid to do this. If Nintendo was third party their sales would CREAM the other Japanese third party games. Nintendo as a third party is a huge threat to other third parties.
To me it seems more like third parties are using Nintendo. Nintendo's like that pathetic friend that you pretend to like so you can use his air hockey table but you don't invite to your birthday party. Look at the behavior of the big Japanese third parties:
Square Enix: releases one exclusive Cube game in exchange for a GBA license. Nintendo even publishes and markets it thus elminating any risk on Square's part. Square Enix has yet to announce any other titles.
Sega: releases several Dreamcast ports along with a few exclusives. Makes big money on Sonic Adventure 2 thanks to the dream scenario of having Sonic on a Nintendo console. Get's to use the F-Zero license. However when they make the new Sonic game it goes multiplatform.
Capcom: makes Resident Evil Cube exclusive but then releases Resident Evil: Outbreak on the PS2. Breaking a promise on a technicality is still breaking a promise. However since the online market on the Cube is virtually non-existant I'll cut them some slack. They're by far the most loyal of the group.
Konami: releases a bunch of crappy Disney games and a remake of MGS that Nintendo's own second party works on. No other games have been announced yet and he haven't even gotten a port of MGS2.
Namco: gets to use Link in Soul Calibur 2 and gets to make the new Star Fox game. Nintendo also makes Pac-Man Vs. for them. Tales of Symphonia has so far been the only major Namco exclusive in the pipe line though and it's no longer exclusive.
I don't think Nintendo "gets" the concept of third party support any more. Simply having third party games isn't good enough. You need to strive for third party loyalty. That means locking up key games as exclusive, trying to nab major games from the other consoles, and getting all multiplatform games (ie: no PS2/Xbox but not Cube games). Nintendo seems to think that if there's one or two major games from each third party it's good enough. It's NOT.
Post by: Berny on April 08, 2004, 06:44:29 PM
Post by: kusanagi on April 08, 2004, 08:13:21 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 08, 2004, 08:57:03 PM
Look at Capcom... they left ALL the zany Japanese voice samplings/dialogue intact in Mega Man Network Transmission, and used english subtitling throughout. I know it's not the best example since MMNT doesn't have a substantial amount of dialogue worth listening to, but didn't that save Capcom a lot of time and money?! Sure it did! Why can't you be more like them, Namco Pac-Man dimwits?
I'm off-topic, OMG!
Post by: Berto2K on April 08, 2004, 09:49:18 PM
I have learned that Namco had the thought of porting this over to PS2, but that it wasn't decided as of a few days ago. They said it was possibly but they would wait and see. As many have said, there are barely any RPGs on the cube, so it would almost be a monopoly of sorts for the RPG market. Any RPG fan would be getting the game, thus it would sell much more than other genres.
How do they expect to sell large volumes of the game on one system when they release it to another with the larger userbase. If the companies want to be able to sell more copies...they have to make some GOOD exclusives. As IAN said, they get to use Link for SC3, Star Fox, and Zelda licenses. Yet Nintendo doesn't get any respect back from them on original titles.
Nintendo is no longer respected as they used to be. They are getting walked on by third-party companies and aren't putting up any kind of fight. Maybe we need to get a Yamauchi back in control to put fear back into them. Does Nintendo need to start paying the developers off? Some may say so...but I sure don't think they shouldn't need to. Especially the likes of Namco and Capcom whom Nintendo have been very good to as of late. No ethics at all by these two companies. People say..."hey thats great, now ps2 owners will get to play" like they did with VJ. Thats the attitude that developers see and make it okay for them to port it. What makes a system sell more are great exclusives, and the Cube just lost another one.
Baten Kaitos thankfully WILL NOT be ported. There are "business agreements" if you will so that they will not.
Post by: Ymeegod on April 08, 2004, 10:04:47 PM
So don't blame Namco since everyone with two functioning brain cells would have done the same.
Post by: Ymeegod on April 08, 2004, 10:06:56 PM
Flawwed since the game's been out for awhile now and it didn't sell--same with VJ. The developers/publishers didn't start talking about porting until a few months after the game was already on sale.
Post by: Berto2K on April 08, 2004, 10:53:50 PM
Is that so about VJ? Then why are most/all PAL boxes not labeled with "Only For" on them? We don't started hearing about the port till later. You think they actually waited that long to talk internally about it? I think not.
"So don't blame Namco since everyone with two functioning brain cells would have done the same."
Don't tell that to MS...they might not like it. They haven't accomplished much numbers in that range at all in JPN, so they must only have one functioning brain cell
.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 08, 2004, 11:37:55 PM
Silly Namco should've given us the option to hear that instead of whatever substitute they're using.
Post by: akdaman1 on April 09, 2004, 12:16:11 AM
You will know what I mean when you look at Lloyds outfit.
Post by: Berto2K on April 09, 2004, 01:11:26 AM
"Namco announced they will release a PS2 port of the popular GameCube RPG Tales of Symphonia, the PS2 version is scheduled for a 2004 release, feature new elements not found in the original version. The game is currently 80% completed."
The Magic-Box
They been working on this for quite a while, at the same time lying to Cube owners faces. Namco lost a few points in my book.
Post by: Berny on April 09, 2004, 03:24:05 AM
Post by: Uncle Rich AiAi on April 09, 2004, 05:44:15 AM
I'm not happy about this myself, but stop blaming and bitching at Nintendo/Namco/Sony and their dog. Unless someone on this fourm can transform into a fly to get into executive meetings
, we don't know the real reason behind all these decision. And stop acting like you know how to run Nintendo better than Nintendo themselves (you know who you are!
). Quote
Originally posted by: Berto2K
Maybe we need to get a Yamauchi back in control to put fear back into them.
Oh ya! I'm all for that!
I miss the old man.
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on April 09, 2004, 06:35:23 AM
Nintendo should just buy up like a dozen or so 2nd party developers and a open an more 1st party dev houses so they won't have to worry about whether the 3rd parties support them or not. Cover all the major bases themselves.
Post by: FOX McLOUD on April 09, 2004, 06:48:51 AM
Over on another site they said "Jump magazine is reporting that Namco will port TOS to the PS2, a news conference will be held on the 12th."
So lets hold out hope, it still MIGHT not be happening.
Plus Nintendo is rumored to be wanting to buy some big third parties, also not likely, but they could turn Namco's big FU to Nintendo, into an even bigger FU for Sony.
Post by: theRPGFreak on April 09, 2004, 07:55:31 AM
Post by: Berto2K on April 09, 2004, 08:35:18 AM
www.42ch.net/UploaderSmall/source/1081438608.JPG
*not linked cause direct linking=bad
*
Post by: nitsu niflheim on April 09, 2004, 08:37:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Can anyone tell me why [Sony] did that? It makes no sense."
I can think of two theories:
1. When Nintendo was in charge they limited releases in North America too. Maybe Sony thinks they would do better if they copied Nintendo's formula more even if it's in a bad way. They're set to release a power glove next year.
2. Console evoluation states that when a console company becomes too powerful they make a lot of dumb mistakes that pisses everyone off. Atari did it. Nintendo did it. Now Sony must do it. They can't stop it. It's fate.
Actually I believe the real reason is that Sony has realized that there are too many PS2 games released and it's hurting overall software sales. Thus they're restricting the localization of Japanese titles they feel will have limited appeal. I think telling companies like Acclaim to stop making so much crap would be a better strategy but whatever.
I think that with the N5 NOA should start a publishing "label" for Nintendo that specializes in localizing obscure Japanese releases. That would really help third party relations and if a surprise hit comes out of it Sony would be caught with their dick hanging out.
Sony was notorious during the PSone era for refusing games in NA because they were 2D instead of 3D, which is why the Saturn got more of the Capcom Vs games because Sega welcomed them.
Post by: Ymeegod on April 09, 2004, 08:37:48 AM
And 80% of a port isn't that hard to do especially given the lapse in time. Porting from one system to another is alot easiler than starting from scratch.
Hell I pre-orderd ToS months ago (release date is now July 12th I believe) and would I cancel my order just to wait another 10-12 months for the PS2 version. Fook That
.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also I believe there will be a sequel to ToS (can't recall where I was reading this).
Post by: Ymeegod on April 09, 2004, 08:43:47 AM
Dittio. Namco done so in the past (ToD anyone) so hopefully they'll add all the goodies for us as well.
Post by: nitsu niflheim on April 09, 2004, 08:47:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Berto2K
I have learned that Namco had the thought of porting this over to PS2, but that it wasn't decided as of a few days ago. They said it was possibly but they would wait and see. As many have said, there are barely any RPGs on the cube, so it would almost be a monopoly of sorts for the RPG market. Any RPG fan would be getting the game, thus it would sell much more than other genres.
The port is around 80% complete so they have been working on this for a while. The % figure was from Magic Box.
Post by: Ymeegod on April 09, 2004, 08:57:23 AM
You assume. Like I said it really doesn't take that long to port games since the majoirty of the coding, textures is already done. :0.
Post by: anubis6789 on April 09, 2004, 09:06:57 AM
I also think that Bloodworth is right in saying that the NA version will probably contain the extra PS2 stuff, seeing as how the PS2 port is 80% complete.
I think that Namco probably started making the US ToS and started adding stuff to it and then thought "Aw crap, all of our Japanese fans are going to be angry with us."(ala FF7) So they decided they were going to make an internatinal version. Namco Probably thought that they could make the Japanese fans happy as well as get a whole new group of sales by releasing it on the PS2. A smart busieness desicion in my book.
Don't think I'm not upset though. If the US version doesn't have the additions of the JPN PS2 version I will be uber cheesed off. Even so we don't even know if the PS2 version is being brought outside of Japan.
I just think that everyone needs to take a chill pill.
Post by: Perfect Cell on April 09, 2004, 10:11:41 AM
Post by: Draygaia on April 09, 2004, 12:16:22 PM
Post by: akdaman1 on April 09, 2004, 12:26:21 PM
Its bound to be an awsome game. But this was supposed to be the biggest exclusive ( after RE 4 ) the GCN has. For us to lose this game is really fken annoying.
I dont blame sony. They're smart and they deserve our applause. I will make damn sure that I get a PSP and PS3 in the future.
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 09, 2004, 12:41:07 PM
Quote
I dont blame sony. They're smart and they deserve our applause. I will make damn sure that I get a PSP and PS3 in the future.
Hopefully you'll check into their games first- I hate it when people buy consoles blindly.
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 09, 2004, 12:58:47 PM
And since I only have 3 games for my ps2, I don't think the ps3 will be even worth the investment...
Post by: Chongman on April 09, 2004, 03:52:26 PM
what I find very very odd is that whenever friends and I get together, we either play the xbox or the cube, but never the ps2. I'm beginning to think that ps2 is a loner's machine, as most of its games are almost all single player. the ps2 is something you play by yourself in your spare time, not with friends. It seems sony tapped into that loner market...and they're making a killing.
It's quite odd, really.
anywhos, back on topic, I don't want nintendo to start handing out money hats, I'd much rather have them get 10X more agressive. If nintendo went out and bought even more 2nd parties and, heaven forbid, a major third party (BUY CAPCOM, YOU FOOLS!!!!!), i'd be very psyched and very impressed. This whole lack of exclusivity, while it makes me pissed, is nothing I'm remotely surprised over. Sony is an all consuming monster among consoles. I think it'd be hillarious if nintendo suddenly bought out namco...I'd laugh and cry until I had an aneurysm.
Post by: akdaman1 on April 09, 2004, 06:45:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clickerQuote
I dont blame sony. They're smart and they deserve our applause. I will make damn sure that I get a PSP and PS3 in the future.
Hopefully you'll check into their games first- I hate it when people buy consoles blindly.
No I have checked into thier games and although they may not be on par with Nintendo on a first party basis, there 3rd party support is huge. Also alot of there games ( Kingdom Hearts, FF 10 ) sell for 25 AUS dollers ( around 10 US dollers ).
My only problem with the machine is that there are only 2 controller ports.
Post by: Koopa Troopa on April 09, 2004, 07:47:15 PM
Quote
I've already decided not to buy a PSP, thanks to it's use of discs, plus I don't like the direction Sony wants to take handheld gaming...(3d! Ack!)
Ditto. I hate discs on home consoles, I definitely don't want them in a portable. And I swear, if PSP somehow becomes a success and kills 2D gaming, I'll bomb Sony HQs across the globe...
Post by: akdaman1 on April 09, 2004, 10:17:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Koopa TroopaQuote
I've already decided not to buy a PSP, thanks to it's use of discs, plus I don't like the direction Sony wants to take handheld gaming...(3d! Ack!)
Ditto. I hate discs on home consoles, I definitely don't want them in a portable. And I swear, if PSP somehow becomes a success and kills 2D gaming, I'll bomb Sony HQs across the globe...
True. I dont want half assed 3d games. They should focus on taking 2d gaming to the next level ( super doopa nintendo ).
Post by: Draygaia on April 10, 2004, 07:43:12 AM
Post by: CHEN on April 10, 2004, 10:01:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Yeah, the fact that Starry Heavens was taken out of the U.S. version of ToS sucks balls.
Look at Capcom... they left ALL the zany Japanese voice samplings/dialogue intact in Mega Man Network Transmission, and used english subtitling throughout. I know it's not the best example since MMNT doesn't have a substantial amount of dialogue worth listening to, but didn't that save Capcom a lot of time and money?! Sure it did! Why can't you be more like them, Namco Pac-Man dimwits?
I'm off-topic, OMG!
I haven't posted in ages here at PGC, but I like to comment on this.
First of all, Capcom/Arika left the Animé opening of the MM Battle Network show aired in Japan. It was in the Japanese version, but they've cut it out in the US version. It was a really nice opening, too bad it got cut out.
Now for Namco. Of course 'Starry Heavens' won't be in the localized version. The record company of 'Day After Tomorrow' pretty much owns the song. The best Namco can do is to re-record it with English vocals, but I hardly would like that, neither do you I presume. Namco is putting a lot of effort in the localisation, so it's a real shame you insult them like that. Do you think other people will like it if Lloyd and co. would talk in Japanese? I know a lot of people who absolutely hate dubbing and/or reading text. I'm not one of those people, that's why I hope they include both files, like in SCII, to satisfy both groups. But seeing the discs storage space, I won't be surprised if they didn't include it.
And I understand your frustration (I'm looking at you akdaman1), but don't forget it's all business. So I don't blame Namco for making money like this. There are worse cases than that. They haven't even announced it yet for the US, so it's a good possibility the enhanced PS2 port is only meant for Japan, like many other enhanced versions like Kingdom Hearts Final Mix and Final Fantasy X-2 Last Mission. From a fanboyish point of view just look at the bright side. IF they'll release it, you're going to get it way sooner and the PS2 version won't likely look as bright and pretty as the GCN version. And Namco can use the funds to develop more games for the GCN. The only thing I'm worried about is the fact that Namco is releasing this news before the ToS release in July. It may lower the overall sales, although not much. ToS clearly deserves better. That was my 2 cents for today.
Post by: GaimeGuy on April 10, 2004, 12:31:02 PM
"Yeah, I know it's not official, yet, but the leaked news that the Playstation 2 is getting an enhanced port of Tales of Symphonia and Tales of Rebirth is really angering a lot of your fans, including me. After all, you did clearly draw a line between the Cube and Ps2 RPG support: Giving the Destiny series, started on the PSone, to Sony, "Phantasia" and it's spinoffs (started on the SNES) go to Nintendo. Xenosaga for Sony, Baten Kaitos for Nintendo. Your company clearly stated that Tales of Symphonia would be a GC exclusive.
The Nintendo GC fanbase as well as Nintendo has been very friendly and appreciative towards you. Nintendo has lent you Link for use in Soul Calibur 2, Nintendo has even developed Pac Man Vs. with you. You've given us Tales of Symphonia, a solid GC RPG which sold quite decently in Japan and has HUGE anticipation in North America and Europe among the GC fanbase, and now you go and release it on Ps2, along with the new Tales of Rebirth? Not only that, you give exclusive content to the Ps2 version of ToS, much of which I've heard that will be in the U.S. version of ToS for the GC.
Speaking of which, please, don't take out the voices from Tales of Symphonia. They're awesome: some of the best I've ever heard. Don't fix what isn't broken, Namco. And please, DO NOT REMOVE OR ALTER the Starry Heavens music! For the love of god, it's a great theme, and changing it is a disgrace! Please, don't give the U.S. cube owners a watered down version of Tales of Symphonia!
I'm not the only one who's upset by this. Planetgamecube.com, one of the major GC fansites in North America, has a userbase which greatly anticipated the Tales of Symphonia release, and is upset by the recent revelations. http://www.planetgamecube.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=3&threadid=8713
I can understand your desire to get more sales. But Cube owners respected you, they admired you, they appreciated you, for your partnerships with Nintendo. But now, there's some people who are so upset by the fact that you're pulling back on the promise of exclusiveness for Tales of Symphonia on the GC that they're not going to buy the game at all! You may get more sales on the Ps2, but those aren't guaranteed: your sales were pretty much guaranteed on the GC, but you've really lost the trust and respect of a lot of fans, because of thise move. Don't make the same mistake twice.
A loyal fan,
Stewart Seltz"
Post by: Berny on April 10, 2004, 12:47:22 PM
"Thank you for emailing Namco and taking an interest in I-Ninja..."
Woops, wrong automated response.
Post by: MeddmaWamm on April 10, 2004, 02:19:36 PM
Post by: odifiend on April 10, 2004, 04:01:59 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on April 10, 2004, 04:33:45 PM
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Dudes this has just gotten into system bashing.
Not system bashing. Corporate bashing.
I thought Namco had done a pretty good job of saying that they planned to support both the GameCube and PS2 with abundant RPGs, limited only by the demand for them. Namco can't put out that many games and has to hire more people? Good. Namco's looking to expand, and rival the likes of Square-Enix. As long as the games turn a profit, and build interest, it's all good.
Xenosaga ep1 sells like hotcakes on the PS2 and merits Xeno ep2, that's good news. It would suck to can a series after "episode 1". Keep it coming.
ToD2 sells >800k units in Japan and earns the PS2 a sequel/spinoff to Eternia? Good. I only wish that had some sort of positive benefit to the American fans.
ToS sells >300k units and earns the GameCube another Phantasia sequel/spinoff? Great. I'm a big fan of Fujishima.
Namco decided to play it safe and throw a couple more games at the PS2? Sure, why not? More to love!
Sony says "No no no. Hold on a second. We don't want another new game. We want that game. Over there. The one that Nintendo is holding. Maybe this here money will convince you..." That sucks. Sony is an evil bastard. They're harming themselves, just so they can harm their competition more. But hey, it earns them money.
Namco says "Sure. We can do that." By porting the game, Namco indirectly says "Hey, all you people who refused to buy Symphonia because of some odd belief that 'Nintendo is dead' which somehow makes good games like Symphonia suddenly not worth buying! You were right. Nintendo is dead. Symphonia wasn't worth buying. Here's the superior PS2 version you all knew was coming."
What do you think that will do to sales of Legendia?
Sony sucks because they're downright evil.
Namco-USA sucks becuase they butcher the American versions of their Tales games, until they get called "Game of the Show" at E3. That's when they cancel their American versions.
Namco-Japan sucks, because they'll backstab allies for money, even when it's not in their own long-term interests. Either that, or they really have no love at all for Nintendo (a longtime contition), and only made a "temporary" burying of the hatchet, out of self-interests (which have paid off).
Nintendo sucks, because they refuse to fight Sony's tactics on levels they're not familiar with, and refuse to learn how to fight on said levels. Also, Nintendo has problems generating "respect" on a widespread level, beyond the "fear" they can easily generate when they're at the top. And Nintendo isn't at the top.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 10, 2004, 05:30:00 PM
That's good research for the PS2 but the PS3 and PSP are different. It's impossible for you to have done any research on the titles available for those systems yet because they haven't been released or even shown to the public. So if you've already decided to buy those systems you have made a blind decision. What MC was saying is that you should wait until the PS3 and the other next gen consoles have shown off their games and then make an educated decision.
GaimeGuy I think emailing Namco is worth a try but there's no point in doing so yet. Until they actually announce ToS for the PS2 for release in North America you'll just get the usual "we don't comment on rumours message". With these companies if it hasn't been revealed in a press release they don't acknowledge it.
Realistically though we can't do anything about this situation. Namco of Japan makes the call and I doubt they care at all what non-Japanese consumers think. And we can't protest by not buying their games because that will just make things worse. It would support their decision to port. The best thing we can do is buy ToS and make it a huge success. That way Namco will know it's worthwhile to support the Cube and even if they port everything to the PS2 they'll continue to at least give us something.
Post by: MeddmaWamm on April 10, 2004, 07:03:49 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 10, 2004, 07:32:37 PM
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So you have have no plans to buy Nintendo's next system until they reveal some of its software?
It's not about buying it or not buying it, it's about indifference- right now I'm indifferent to the N5 because I know quite literally nothing about it. If it were released tomorrow, I wouldn't buy it. I don't have plans not to buy the console, but I can't say I have plans to buy it, either.
Post by: akdaman1 on April 10, 2004, 08:29:57 PM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"No I have checked into thier games and although they may not be on par with Nintendo on a first party basis, there 3rd party support is huge. Also alot of there games ( Kingdom Hearts, FF 10 ) sell for 25 AUS dollers ( around 10 US dollers )."
That's good research for the PS2 but the PS3 and PSP are different. It's impossible for you to have done any research on the titles available for those systems yet because they haven't been released or even shown to the public. So if you've already decided to buy those systems you have made a blind decision. What MC was saying is that you should wait until the PS3 and the other next gen consoles have shown off their games and then make an educated decision.
GaimeGuy I think emailing Namco is worth a try but there's no point in doing so yet. Until they actually announce ToS for the PS2 for release in North America you'll just get the usual "we don't comment on rumours message". With these companies if it hasn't been revealed in a press release they don't acknowledge it.
Realistically though we can't do anything about this situation. Namco of Japan makes the call and I doubt they care at all what non-Japanese consumers think. And we can't protest by not buying their games because that will just make things worse. It would support their decision to port. The best thing we can do is buy ToS and make it a huge success. That way Namco will know it's worthwhile to support the Cube and even if they port everything to the PS2 they'll continue to at least give us something.
Yes you are right, and of course I will take a look at the line up for each system that comes out. But what I meant is I will buy PS3, PSP if this trend continues. You know the won where Nintendo keep losing exclusives thinking to themselves that everythings fine. I will also buy a N5.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 10, 2004, 08:35:36 PM
I think I probably will but I haven't "officially" made my decision yet. If they reveal that it's like the virtual boy 2 or something then no I won't buy it. The N64 sounded like a must own to me when it was first being talked about but when it was revealed to be a cartridge system I waited because I figured that would affect things and it did (though I did get one years later when there was a good supply of games to buy). Even with the Cube I sort of assumed I would get it but didn't really decide "I'm getting it at launch" until I saw the launch titles.
But with a Nintendo console I think it's different because you buy a Nintendo console for Nintendo games which are guaranteed to be on that console. With Sony it's for the third parties and those games could be released on any console. For example if you bought the PS2 early on because you liked the Resident Evil games you missed out.
This is pretty off topic though. Sorry about that.
Post by: KDR_11k on April 11, 2004, 07:59:56 AM
Furthermore they'll need to dumb down the graphics unless they developed the whole thing for the PS2 in first place.
If you want my oppinion, any bit of JPop I don't have to suffer through is an improvement. I'd prefer songs without any vocals, but as long as it's not that godawful JPop I can at least listen to it without trying to remove my ears.
As for Namco, time for a beating. Either pay 'em off (seriously, I don't think Sony would bother with paying money for yet another RPG that is out on another system for at least a year by the time they'd get it. Sony get's enough of 'em for free, why pay money for a single one?) or punish 'em. I'd rather see Nintendo paying Namco, buying shares and in some way get them into a contract ("An offer they can't refuse", sorry, watched the Godfather yesterday...).
Post by: GaimeGuy on April 11, 2004, 08:46:59 AM
Ok, that's a pretty broad assumption. But you can't deny the fact that Nintendo's tactics came and bit them in the backside when Sony emerged with the Playstation. Now, I doubt that Square Enix is going to turn around and make a console to compete with the playstation, but you know what I mean.
You might be looking at it as Nintendo being too nice, but I see it as Nintendo learned their lesson. That's also seen in the aid and collaberations they're engaging in with other developers, too. You can't pull under-the-table stunts forever. But if you establish frinedly relationships with other companies, you can ensure their loyalty and support.
Post by: Darc Requiem on April 11, 2004, 11:06:42 AM
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Originally posted by: GaimeGuy
A lot of people are complaining about Nintendo's tactics, claiming that Nintendo needs to play dirtier. Don't forget, Nintendo played VERY dirty in the NES and SNES days, and lots of companies ended up hating them for their dirty tactics used against them. One of them ended up taking over the industry, after Nintendo backstabbed them (Sony), so I think Nintendo's smart to not play dirty, anymore. It didn't end up doing them any good. Oh sure, it ended up with them getting better products, but developers generated bad feelings towards nintendo, and when they got the chance, they jumped ship.
Ok, that's a pretty broad assumption. But you can't deny the fact that Nintendo's tactics came and bit them in the backside when Sony emerged with the Playstation. Now, I doubt that Square Enix is going to turn around and make a console to compete with the playstation, but you know what I mean.
You might be looking at it as Nintendo being too nice, but I see it as Nintendo learned their lesson. That's also seen in the aid and collaberations they're engaging in with other developers, too. You can't pull under-the-table stunts forever. But if you establish frinedly relationships with other companies, you can ensure their loyalty and support.
I agree with you point about Nintendo's authoritarian tactics in the 80s and 90s but Nintendo didn't backstab Sony over the SNES CD. Sony tried to slide one by on Nintendo and Nintendo choose another partner. Sony wanted royalty fees on each CD game sold and that infuriated Nintendo to say the least. I'm sorry but I don't see Nintendo or any other hardware manufacturer paying royalty fees on there own games to another party. That defeats the purpose of being a hardware manufacturer. If you are going to pay royalty fees on your own hardware why spend the money to develop it in the first place.
Darc Requiem
Post by: akdaman1 on April 11, 2004, 01:01:08 PM
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Originally posted by: GaimeGuy
A lot of people are complaining about Nintendo's tactics, claiming that Nintendo needs to play dirtier. Don't forget, Nintendo played VERY dirty in the NES and SNES days, and lots of companies ended up hating them for their dirty tactics used against them. One of them ended up taking over the industry, after Nintendo backstabbed them (Sony), so I think Nintendo's smart to not play dirty, anymore. It didn't end up doing them any good. Oh sure, it ended up with them getting better products, but developers generated bad feelings towards nintendo, and when they got the chance, they jumped ship.
Ok, that's a pretty broad assumption. But you can't deny the fact that Nintendo's tactics came and bit them in the backside when Sony emerged with the Playstation. Now, I doubt that Square Enix is going to turn around and make a console to compete with the playstation, but you know what I mean.
You might be looking at it as Nintendo being too nice, but I see it as Nintendo learned their lesson. That's also seen in the aid and collaberations they're engaging in with other developers, too. You can't pull under-the-table stunts forever. But if you establish frinedly relationships with other companies, you can ensure their loyalty and support.
There dirty tactics lead them through those generations. They lost support on the 64 because it was cartridge based.
Nintendo has alot of money in the bank and I like it how there aqquiring 2nd parties ( smart move ) but surley they have enough money to buy a large enough share of Namco to keep enough titles Exclusive.
Post by: ruby_onix on April 11, 2004, 02:33:29 PM
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Don't forget, Nintendo played VERY dirty in the NES and SNES days, and lots of companies ended up hating them for their dirty tactics used against them. One of them ended up taking over the industry, after Nintendo backstabbed them (Sony), so I think Nintendo's smart to not play dirty, anymore. It didn't end up doing them any good. Oh sure, it ended up with them getting better products, but developers generated bad feelings towards nintendo, and when they got the chance, they jumped ship.
Ok, that's a pretty broad assumption. But you can't deny the fact that Nintendo's tactics came and bit them in the backside when Sony emerged with the Playstation.
Side note: Nintendo didn't backstab Sony. That's just how Next Gen magazine said it happened. Next Gen was famously Sony-biased (it got so bad that it became a running joke with them), and got that quote from Olaf Olaffson, one of SCEA's highest-ups. Next Gen was the first magazine to really show us the "behind the scenes" stuff of the videogame industry, but I think a lot of that had to do with SCEA. They won over Next Gen by giving them all the inside access they wanted, and made Next Gen who they were. Other companies started to open up, but SCEA was the first, and the most-open to them.
Basically, Sony partnered with Nintendo for some SNES technology deals. Sony turned on Nintendo and tried to kill them with an SNES CD (called the Play Station). Nintendo didn't lie down for it, and got onto even footing by announcing their own SNES CD. Sony took Nintendo to court. Sony called it a "stab in the back" and "legal trickery", since the Japanese courts ruled that Nintendo was allowed to make their own SNES CD, since Sony had clearly violated a "good faith" clause. Sony then killed their own Play Station (after making, and then breaking, a deal to actually "partner" with Nintendo on the SNES CD), and started their own 100% Sony-owned "PSX", while Nintendo's SNES CD never got out of the gates before they saw the N64 on the horizon.
Back to the topic, the PSX "won" against the N64 because of the money factor of CDs, and the fact that it was the developer favorite. The development industry got the idea into their heads that the PSX won because it was their favorite.
The PS2 had proven that to be false. It was always about the money. The fact that the PSX was the easiest to work with, was (for the developers) a lucky fluke.
I do like the "nice" Nintendo more myself, but sometimes they don't seem to get any respect. Maybe when a company like Namco disses the Cube, Nintendo should threaten a little. "Y'know, we're trying to be nice to you here. You're not helping matters by pulling this crap."
Post by: Ian Sane on April 11, 2004, 08:47:22 PM
But super wimpy Nintendo is no good either. They have to be somewhere in the middle. They have to suck up to third parties but in a way that they don't get screwed. They have to make it so that third parties feel that they have to support Nintendo consoles. The best way to do that is to give them incentives to make exclusives be it lower license fees, absorbing some of the publishing costs, etc. Nintendo has done this to an extent by letting third parties work with Nintendo franchises. But that's not enough. They don't have to just give them incentive to make exclusives but also dissuade them from porting to other consoles. One possible way to do it is to help third parties use the Cube hardware to the full potential so that they CAN'T port to the PS2 without a lot of hassle and a huge drop in graphics. They could still port to the Xbox in that situation but that's not as big of a deal as porting to the PS2.
Post by: KDR_11k on April 11, 2004, 11:05:15 PM
Nintendo no longer has that iron fist, but Sony is doing their best to get to that level again, leading to some incredibly stupid decisions (apparently SCEA rejected Killer 7, Viewtiful Joe and maybe soon Tales). That's why Capcom isn't PS2 exclusive, they fear that Sony gains a monopoly where they can dictate conditions that everybody has to adhere to (what Microsoft is dreaming of and has as a mission statement).
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 12, 2004, 03:08:55 AM
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They actually are still pulling out some of the old bullsh!t as their license fees have always been higher than Sony's for no other reason beyond greed.
Eh, from everything I've heard, Nintendo's licensing fees aren't any higher than Sony's or Microsoft's- in fact, all 3 companies' licensing are about the same. I'm not sure where you heard Nintendo was greedy and kept their licensing fees higher.
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 12, 2004, 03:43:38 AM
Post by: Ymeegod on April 12, 2004, 05:57:52 AM
Actually the GC has the highest fee still even after nintendo reduced it back in June 2003. Prior to that it was nearly $2.00-3.00 higher than Sony's. After the reduction it's only like a buck higher than sony's.
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 12, 2004, 11:19:57 AM
Post by: Ymeegod on April 13, 2004, 04:41:21 AM
since they even had an articles about it.Post by: Ymeegod on April 13, 2004, 04:57:35 AM
Post by: Ymeegod on April 13, 2004, 05:10:40 AM
Oh, I got the dates mixed, it's april 2003--not june.
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 13, 2004, 07:26:42 AM
Post by: DrZoidberg on April 13, 2004, 07:45:00 AM
[small on topic message to justifiy post goes here]
Post by: KDR_11k on April 13, 2004, 10:41:21 AM
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Originally posted by: Ymeegod
Of course that was addressed last year and why we see tons of bargin games nowadays for the GC.
I never see bargains for the GC. Games are 60 until they get thrown off the shelves by the retailers.
Post by: Uglydot on April 13, 2004, 01:19:54 PM
Post by: Ymeegod on April 13, 2004, 07:55:57 PM
Think he's canadian. Alot of games come with $40 retail price now even for the GC. Can think of a couple of dozen of the top of my head--the most recent is Twin Snakes.
Post by: KDR_11k on April 14, 2004, 12:08:06 AM
Post by: kovu_br on April 14, 2004, 08:37:59 AM
300k vs 800k is bad, because game developers don't get money based on the ratio "units solds/user base", so even if a game reaches, say, 20% of all Cube users by selling 300k but only 5% of all PS2 owners by selling 800k for Namco it's still more profitable to release the game for the PS2. It's all about units sold.
...Before anyone says anything, I made those numbers up to illustrate a point, so they're probably inaccurate.
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They haven't even announced it yet for the US, so it's a good possibility the enhanced PS2 port is only meant for Japan, like many other enhanced versions like Kingdom Hearts Final Mix and Final Fantasy X-2 Last Mission. From a fanboyish point of view just look at the bright side. IF they'll release it, you're going to get it way sooner and the PS2 version won't likely look as bright and pretty as the GCN version.[
It's not the same thing - KH Final Mix and FFX-2 Last Mission are both PS2 games like KH and FFX-2, so you're basically trying to sell version 1.1 of a game to an audience that already has version 1.0. Meanwhile releasing the PS2 ToS will open a whole new potential market to the game, as there are several people who would like to play it but are not willing to buy a Cube just for that.
From a business standpoint Namco is doing the right thing (Why not release a RPG to the console with the highest number of RPG aficionados?), but that doesn't mean I have to like that...
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 14, 2004, 11:22:29 AM
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300k vs 800k is bad, because game developers don't get money based on the ratio "units solds/user base", so even if a game reaches, say, 20% of all Cube users by selling 300k but only 5% of all PS2 owners by selling 800k for Namco it's still more profitable to release the game for the PS2. It's all about units sold.
Using that logic, every game made this generation should be on the PS2 and probably just the PS2. Of COURSE games will sell better on the console with the biggest user base- if developers only looked at units sold and not proportional units sold we'd end up with a one-console industry again, complete with all the joys and wonders you've come to expect from a monopoly!
Post by: KDR_11k on April 14, 2004, 11:45:05 AM
Post by: kovu_br on April 14, 2004, 04:14:21 PM
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Using that logic, every game made this generation should be on the PS2 and probably just the PS2. Of COURSE games will sell better on the console with the biggest user base- if developers only looked at units sold and not proportional units sold we'd end up with a one-console industry again, complete with all the joys and wonders you've come to expect from a monopoly!
Yes, using that logic every game should be released on the PS2 (Not just on it, as ports open new markets to a game, and that's a good thing) - And frankly, can you honestly say that's not happening right now? Other than very big companies like Capcom, Tecmo and Sega (Who can afford to let their top game creators choose whatever console they want to develop for every once in a while) every other developer is, in fact, looking just at units sold. And that's just common business sense, as their immediate concern isn't to prevent a monopoly, but to regain the money invested in the making of a game.
That's why the PS2 and the X-Box get most of the releases. Why did the PS2 got Disgaea? Because it has the largest potential TRPG fanbase. Why did the X-Box get Breakdown? Because it has the largest potential FPS fanbase. Why did the Gamecube get Resident Evil 4? Because Mikami doesn't like the PS2, not because that type of game seels better on the Cube.
I'm not saying I like that logic, but it's undeniable that close to 90% of all game developers follow it.
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 14, 2004, 04:18:44 PM
Post by: kovu_br on April 14, 2004, 04:38:46 PM
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Heh, Sega can afford to give consoles exclusives? Sega dropped out of the console business because they were billions of dollars in debt, and still lost money for a while as a 3rd party. It wasn't until recently that they started turning a profit, and I guarantee you that debt is still very much there. Sega can hardly afford to give consoles exclusives. Look at the sales, though- it's the exclusive games that sell the best (the only real exception being Madden NFL)- Halo, GTA3, Vice City, Final Fantasy, Zelda, Mario. My point is that if companies ONLY look at total sales, every game should be on the PS2 and probably the PS2 alone, yet that doesn't happen because that logic doesn't work. You can't look at JUST the sales figures, because if you do you end up with a one console industry (as I said), which in turn leads to a monopoly.
Sega got pretty cocky after they went 3rd party, and decided that the best course of action would be to attach certain franchises to certain consoles, and as a result it still lost money. Now they're making money again, by releasing most of their games for the PS2 and releasing certain proven franchises for all 3. That's a pretty strong example of why the "numbers make games" logic work.
Games like Halo, GTA3, Vice City and Zelda don't sell well because they're exclusive - They sell well because they're good. But I guarantee you that no matter how well Knights of the Republic sold on the Box it would have sold even better on the PS2, and that's why smaller game companies choose it as their plataform of choice. Zelda and Mario sell well on the Cube because they're the reason most people buy Nintendo consoles, but strip them of their names and legacy and I bet they wouldn't sell as well on it no matter how good they are - The Gamecube has proven quite a few times that non-franchise games aren't that viable on it while the PS2 market has been more receptive to them (Not by much, but still they sell better on it).
Game developers, like all business, live and breath by the botton line. Meaning that it's money that keeps them alive, so if they don't look at total sales (Which reflect how much money they can make in return to their investiment) to decide which console to support then at what do they look at? Why are most japanese developers releasing games for the PS2? Do I think the fact that of the 10 best selling games in Japan 9 are PS2 games has anything to do with that? Do I think that the fact that whenever a game hits the 3 consoles the PS2 version usually sells much more than the other two has anything to do with that? Yes, I sure do.
If game developers didn't look at units sold, you'd be seeing much more support from japanese developers for the X-Box and much more mature games on the Gamecube.
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 14, 2004, 04:45:50 PM
Post by: kovu_br on April 14, 2004, 05:18:29 PM
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You raise some good points, but I guarantee that all the examples I used as good selling games would sell much worse were they multiplatform. Look at us as Nintendo fans! A lot of us don't even consider games that aren't exclusive. Besides that, exclusive games generally turn out better since the developer's resources are not being spread over multiple platforms- when they can focus on just one the game almost always turns out better, although that varies, of course. And I'm not saying developers should IGNORE straight sales, just that they shouldn't ignore proportional sales- I believe the opposite is true as well.
The sad truth about today's game market is that the fans account for very little market share compared to the casual gamers, so even though some fans may refuse to buy a port if the game interests Casual Joe he will buy it.
Casual Joe doesn't want to buy a new console for each game he wants to play, so most stick to games for the console they already own, and that's where the PS2 allure lies for developers. It has the most diverse userbase, so if you throw a game at them it has a bigger chance to hit a group that will like it.
And another reason most exclusive games you mentioned sold well was because they were targeted at the right audience: Halo benefited from Microsoft's marketing money and from being the must own of the X-Box's launch, plus most of it's audience consisted initially of PC gamers, so FPS has a big appeal for them. GT3 was released for the console with the largest number of sport fans. Final Fantasy X was released for the largest RPG fanbase. You get the picture...
But I still think games like GTAIII, KotOR or Devil May Cry would have sold better if they weren't exclusives. And I don't think a game like Prince of Persia or Beyond Good & Evil would have benefited from exclusivity.
As a gamer I obviously prefer developers to make games from the ground up to a certain plataform - as you said, they tend to look better, play better and sound better as well. All I'm saying is that even though as a gamer I like that philosophy, if I had stocks of a game company I would want it to focus on the safest market, and a cruel peculiarity of the gaming business is that not only is the PS2 the safest market but it's also the most profitable...
...OK, it's late here and I'm getting sleepy. I'm out of here.
Post by: KDR_11k on April 14, 2004, 09:46:27 PM
As for Sega, they're determining target platforms with a blindfold and a dartboard.
BTW, if you're going with attachment rates SSBM sold about as well as GTAVC.
Post by: kovu_br on April 15, 2004, 08:41:44 AM
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And I don't think a game like Prince of Persia or Beyond Good & Evil would have benefited from exclusivity.
That is a lie. I realise now that yesterday I was looking at things from a very simple minded black and white point of view.
Exclusivity can indeed benefit certain games since console makers tend to market them much more effectively. Look at games like Sudeki and Killzone, I doubt they would be getting this much attention if not for Microsoft and Sony hyping them to hell and back.
A game like Ninja Gaiden probably benefited from being a X-Box exclusive as well.
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However, in a saturated market even good games on the largest platform can fail. I've read an article of underrated games, many of which were on PS2 and released right next to a really big seller (e.g. RPGs close to Final Fantasy, etc). As you can see from Soul Calibur 2, if there is no competition to speak of your game will sell much better. Tales of Symphonia should have a similar advantage on the GC. Heh, would be funny if the GC version outsold the PS2 version because some big name title (let's say GTA: San Andreas or Final Fantasy XII, for the japanese market maybe another Dragon Quest) gets released on PS2...
Of course releasing a game next to a heavy hitter will hurt your sales, but that's not a reason to release it for a different plataform, it's a reason to delay your game.
The reason why Soul Calibur 2 sold so well on the Cube isn't due to the plataform's lack of fighting games, it was because Link was featured as a guest character. It appealed to the Zelda fanbase, not to the fighting fanbase.
And I hope said advantage helps ToS in the NGC, but I don't know if it will be able to reach past the small base of RPG fans in the console. I still maintain that it has a better chance of succeeding in the PS2 as long as they do'nt release it next to Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest, of course.
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BTW, if you're going with attachment rates SSBM sold about as well as GTAVC.
Given how the SSB series has a rabid fanbase in Japan and stars some of the most well-known game characters in the world it's not that surprising that it sold so well. The surprise was how GTA III sold so well, seeing how GTA and GTA2 were hardly system sellers, but that does prove that word of mouth, hype and controversy can be very powerful marketing tools.
