Post by: davidlow122 on January 19, 2004, 09:16:00 PM
I thought I'd write a article on Nintendo's Innovations over the years. The most obvious, physical thing is the hand controller. So here's a list of what they've done.
Format:
System on which the Innovation made it's debut
Number. Name of Idea
Description
(Competitors systems or controllers which have stolen the idea)
NES
1.The hand controller itself.
Description: Before the NES controller there were only joysticks which were clumsy, fragile, badly made, and expensive. The hand controller allowed more precision, was more robust and was cheaper.
(Every hand controller since owes a debt to this!)
2.The digital + pad.
Description: Originally invented and patented for Game and Watches, the decreased distance between directions meant quicker turns, more precision etc. A revolution.
(Master system, Mega Drive/Genesis, Game gear, Lynx, Saturn, Playstation, Playstation Dual Shock, Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox)
3.Start and Select buttons.
Description: By adding system buttons to the controller, it allowed pausing, option browsing etc.
(Lynx, Playstation, Playstation Dual Shock, PS2, Xbox [start only: Mega Drive/Genesis, Game Gear, Saturn, Dreamcast])
4.The two button layout, Buttons named after letters (A and B)
Description: Pretty simple, but obviously effective since almost everyone has copied it. Buttons used to be named '1 and 2' or simply 'fire'.
( Mega Drive/Genesis, Game gear, Lynx, Saturn, Dreamcast, Xbox )
SNES
5.The four button layout
Description: Two sets of two buttons
(Mega Drive/Genesis[2 sets of 3 buttons, on the Genesis 2 controller], Saturn[also 2 sets of 3], Playstation, Playstation Dual Shock, Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox)
6.Buttons named X and Y
Description: Pretty simple, but once again obviously effective since almost everyone has copied it.
( Mega Drive/Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast, Xbox [Playstation, Playstation Dual Shock and PS2 controllers also have an 'X' button])
7.Shoulder buttons (R and L)
Description: First use of buttons that use fingers other then the thumbs – another revolution.
( Playstation, Playstation Dual Shock, Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox)
Virtual Boy
8.'Handlebar' structure
Description: Allowed better grip for shoulder buttons (It was actually a Nintendo 64 prototype controller that first showed this feature, but Virtual Boy beat PS1 to the market with it)
( Playstation, Playstation Dual Shock, PS2 [Dreamcast and Xbox have this structure, except the space between the bars has been filled in with plastic over the front)
9.Two directional inputs
Description: So right or left hands could have optional styles of input.
(Playstation Dual Shock, Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox)
Nintendo 64
10.The Analogue stick
Description: Another revolution, a major innovation that Sony couldn't even wait until the end of the generation to rip off, forcing everyone to go and buy new controllers to play the latest games.
(Playstation Dual Shock, Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox)
11.The rumble feature
Description: While Nintendo gave you an add on free with Starfox to have this feature, Sony made you buy a very expensive new controller for it.
(Playstation Dual Shock, Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox)
12.In controller memory card
Description: Reduced clutter on the front of the console – look at how ugly a PS2 is with several memory cards and a DVD remote plugged in to it. Phased out for Gamecube since Wavebird is a one way signal.
(Dreamcast, Xbox)
13.Separate camera control/strafe control (C buttons)
Description: Foresight as to what a 3D game would call for – Imagine Mario or goldeneye without the C buttons!
(Xbox [the Playstation Dual Shock's tacked on analogue sticks sometimes performed this task – badly, as they are too far from your grip )
14.the 'Trigger' style shoulder button (Z button)
Description: a shoulder button in a place where it is easier to control, giving a more precision feel. Developed by the Dreamcast controller into the Analogue triggers (in my opinion the most major innovation not from Nintendo)
( Playstation Dual Shock and PS2's second shoulder buttons were widened and brought back from their original playstation controller positions to create some of this effect. Xbox and Gamecube have followed the Dreamcast development)
15.Four controller ports
Description: Simple, 4 player without an overly expensive adapter that is hard to get and nobody has.
(Dreamcast, Xbox)
GameCube
16.The camera stick (C stick)
Description: Development of the C buttons into Analogue format.
(Xbox)
17.The 'No Look' style button layout
Description: People don't have to look down to obey the on screen command to press the 'B' or 'Y' button – It's position and shape mean you know by feel
(No one has copied yet, although I wish Sony would do something about it. After eight years I still have to check which is square and which is O)
18.Digital click on Analogue triggers
Description: Another useful function added to an existing idea. For example, in Mario Sunshine, press to run with water, click to lock on the spot and pivot.
(No copy yet, although Sony and Xbox added a click to their analogue sticks)
19.Real wireless solution (Wavebird)
Description: Finally! No more cord tangle!
(They WILL copy. All of them)
Other stuff worth noting:
- Something everyone else's analogue sticks could use: the ridges on the outside rim bracket, present on N64 and Gamecube. They allow you to lock in straight if you have to, while still being analogue.
- Nintendo dropped the select button two generations ago. Once you had many more accessible buttons, another option button was obsolete. But Sony and Microsoft keep the button, even though it is never used (It's mostly used as an alternate pause to an inventory or map screen (eg. Resident evil). The Gamecube Z button is a better, more modern alternative.
- All three other companies (Sega, Sony, Microsoft) have released new controller for a system WITHIN a generation to combat features Nintendo's current controller already offered:
- Sega had to release a six button pad for the Mega Drive/Genesis to handle Street Fighter 2, when a standard SNES pad already had six action buttons
- Sony released the Dual Analogue to answer Nintendo's analogue control, and then the Dual Shock to answer Nintendo's Rumble pak feature, and then basically made sure you had to buy it by not supporting the old controller very well in some high profile games (Metal Gear Solid, Ape Escape). I really felt sorry for the people who bought the Dual analogue one (at the price of a game), and then had to upgrade again to Dual Shock (at the price of a game).
- Microsoft released the Xbox 's' controller to combat another feature of the GameCube controller: comfort. Once again, the poor owner of 4 original controllers has to buy another to be able to reach all the buttons.
Well there you have it. It's amazing how blatant the theft of ideas is, especially the most important ideas, like analogue sticks. So next time that PS2 or Xbox fanboy tells you how good their controller is, point out how much it owes to the Big N's ideas!
Post by: animex on January 19, 2004, 10:50:51 PM
Post by: Aussie Ben PGC on January 19, 2004, 10:54:54 PM
There were some very clever ideas presented with the Dual Shock, all Sony's. While it's true that Nintendo created the function of Rumble, Sony made it standard. Nintendo thought that built-in rumble was such a good idea that they incorporated it into their next console controller. The same thing for the Camera stick. I'm actually quite surprised that Nintendo didn't add the extra buttons to the Control Sticks like Sony and Microsoft have. It's really quite handy for assigning a particular function that you look at regularly (like a map screen).
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 19, 2004, 11:35:53 PM
Post by: davidlow122 on January 20, 2004, 12:03:43 AM
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it was Sony who came up with the idea of two analog Control Sticks
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True, but it does seem however, that it was a lame catch up effort on Sony's part. "You have analogue, well we have.........DUAL analogue!!! You have Rumble, well we have.......DUAL shock!!!
The N64 already had a 'digital second stick' in the C button suite, another stick is an extension of that idea, as evidenced on Gamecube's 'C stick'
And Ape escape, the first game to really use it on Playstation, came out 2 years after the original Dual analogue controller
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quote:
While it's true that Nintendo created the function of Rumble, Sony made it standard.
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Yeah, a standard of theirs YOU had to pay a lot extra for, didn't you read the article? The Dual Shock 1 was NOT STANDARD, that was the problem. I had to buy 2 new controllers at $70 Australian each to play some later games, when I had 3 original controllers.
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quote:
(along with two extra buttons by clicking down the sticks - L3 and R3)
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I mentioned this in the article, see item 18. The only game I've seen to use this in a way that makes sense is Tony Hawk, where you lock the camera with it. Halo uses it so zoom in a rifle, not as good as a shoulder button for this function in my opinion.
But more importantly, this function leaves more 'dead' space in the middle of the stick, making it less precise. The Xbox stick is ok, but the PS2 sticks are FAR, FAR too floaty
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quote:
Similar to how the N64 Controller was used in every way possible in Super Mario 64, Ape Escape was the PlayStation's game that used every feature of the controller - using both sticks to paddle with oars, built-in rumble when getting close to a monkey with the Monkey Radar, firing the undersea Monkey Net by clicking down on L3.
There were some very clever ideas presented with the Dual Shock, all Sony's.
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So let me get this straight: using all the functions of a controller like Mario 64 did is an idea 'all Sony's'?
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quote:
Nintendo thought that built-in rumble was such a good idea that they incorporated it into their next console controller
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Funny, the company that introduced rumble to controllers made it standard on their next console, but because another company got a console out sooner, they are copying?
Nintendo has used very few other companies ideas, and when they did I mentioned it (Two Analogue sticks, Dreamcast's analogue triggers), and even they were developments of ideas Nintendo introduced (N64 C buttons and Z button respectivley)
But I've given you EIGHTEEN POINTS of innovation that have been responsible for! Can Sony claim that?
Post by: DrZoidberg on January 20, 2004, 01:04:47 AM
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on January 20, 2004, 01:24:15 AM
I take a major issue with every system current system manufacturer, though - controllers simply aren't flexible enough to handle every kind of game like they used to be, and it's due to not having enough buttons. I'm sure I've ranted about this before, but... since the Genesis (ver 2), Saturn, and N64 had a six buttons laid out on the face of the controller for proper fighting games and everything else, nobody else has an excuse to not include them. (The black/white on XBox obviously don't count if you've ever used them)
Post by: Idiot Savant on January 20, 2004, 02:49:28 AM
Description: Simple, 4 player without an overly expensive adapter that is hard to get and nobody has.
(Dreamcast, Xbox)
The Atari 2600 had 4 controller ports.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on January 20, 2004, 04:00:36 AM
Post by: MeddmaWamm on January 20, 2004, 04:08:53 AM
YES. Nintendo naming buttons "X" and "Y" is true innovation. Next time maybe they'll introduce a controller with buttons with DIFFERENT letters in the alphabet??? I hope so. It'd be great.
"The Gamecube Z button is a better, more modern alternative."
...I think the R1 button on the PS2 controller is a better alternative to the GameCube Z button.
"Sony released the Dual Analogue to answer Nintendo's analogue control, and then the Dual Shock to answer Nintendo's Rumble pak feature"
I thought there was only a Dual Shock.
"17.The 'No Look' style button layout
Description: People don't have to look down to obey the on screen command to press the 'B' or 'Y' button – It's position and shape mean you know by feel"
I remember where each button on the PS2 controller is. It isn't very hard. I remember buttons by their position on the controller, so having different shaped buttons doesn't help me. It just makes you end up with a controller with odd shaped buttons.
"Funny, the company that introduced rumble to controllers made it standard on their next console, but because another company got a console out sooner, they are copying?"
Yes, they are copying. Sony had built-in rumble first and they copied it.
Post by: WesDawg on January 20, 2004, 04:53:46 AM
I do like the "No Look" style buttons a lot though. I, and most of my friends, have no idea which is the X or Y button on the Cube, and I'm pretty sure I'd never remember which was X and which is O on the PS2, but when I see that little odd shaped thing tilted to the right, my fingers move pretty quick. Of course Mario Party is never that helpful, but when it is, I like it.
Post by: KDR_11k on January 20, 2004, 05:19:21 AM
6 face buttons are overkill. I have six face buttons on my Sidewinder Pad, but they just keep confusing the player (happens pretty often that one slides off the right controls and uses another row of buttons instead). They're only useful for games using a button layout similar to the GC's (Eternal Fighter Zero, Fighting game, 3+1 layout). Why do people need six buttons for fighting games, anyway? OMF worked with 2!
BTW, it's noticeable how, at the beginning of the first 3d generation, everybody stuck to digital controls (the placement of the N64's d-pad suggests this), but at the end of the firs/beginning of the second everybody noticed analogue was more important. The XB and GC both have the a-stick as their main input now.
Post by: Ian Sane on January 20, 2004, 06:50:31 AM
...to having a tarantula lay eggs in your anus. Sorry but thinking of the z button on the Cube controller as any sort of innovation is really reaching. The truth is that third parties wanted a z button on the controller because they liked the legitimately innovative N64 z button. Nintendo, not having any real plans on including such a button, just threw it any old place to shut them up. Nintendo uses it for select button-ish features but those don't really benefit from the button's placement. Third parties try to use it as an action button and run into problems because of Nintendo's half-assed answer to their request.
I find the Cube controller to be rather innovative in some ways but it really comes across as a controller designed for Nintendo alone. Nintendo, for example, rarely uses the z button or d-pad and sure enough those two parts of the controller seem rather thrown on and are so poorly designed it's as if Nintendo is encouraging people to NOT use them. The placement of the face buttons is great for exclusive first party games but doesn't work for as well for multiplatform releases and sucks royal ass for fighting games.
Nintendo's next controller, interestingly enough, should probably be designed to be LESS innovative and more generic so it can accommodate a wider range of titles. I really like Ty's idea of having six face buttons of equal size. Then add start and select butons, analog "clicky" L and R buttons, twin analog sticks (which are both identical, no nipple sticks), and a big SNES-style D-pad. That would be a great controller.
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 20, 2004, 06:58:31 AM
Post by: Deguello on January 20, 2004, 06:59:20 AM
Yes, they are copying. Sony had built-in rumble first and they copied it."
Wrong. Suppose I invent the Car, and a month later I invent a Car Radio that you can install in the dash, 9 months later you "invent" a Car that has a Car Radio already installed. In my next car model, since the feedback on the Radio was good enough that my competitors (you) used that idea, I made the Radios (my own invention) standard equipment, which is a logical conclusion, and I am not stealing your "idea," because I think it was obvious that my original idea involved the Car and Radio together. By the logic of the quoted statement, you would then accuse me of stealing your idea of "built-in" Car Radios, which is a moot point and quite foolish considering I invented the Car Radio in the first place. It's like you are accusing me of using my own ideas.
The origin of the force-feedback is debatable, but on consoles it was Nintendo's Rumble Pak that was first. You might have a point about Nintendo copying Sony's Dual Shock if the Rumble Motor wasn't in the middle of the back of the Cube controller (logically, where the Rumble Pak {Nintendo's invention} was on the N64 controller), rather on the sides like the PS2 controller. But since it is not, the Cube's Rumble Feature (hehe weird wording) is merely and extension of their own invention made standard. And to say that Nintendo is stealing Sony's idea of "integrated" Rumble is quite ludicrous.
Post by: Ian Sane on January 20, 2004, 07:22:12 AM
No! I hated the N64 C-buttons. They gave me blisters because of those stupid arrows and it was so irritating to say "C-right" instead of just C. If you've ever given the Saturn pad a decent go you'll like that design much better.
Post by: Renny on January 20, 2004, 07:39:01 AM
Stick clicks are equally unnecessary, and compromise the accuracy of control, not only by increasing the dead-zone--as david mentioned--but also by making precise use of the stick while clicking impossible.
Post by: DrZoidberg on January 20, 2004, 08:27:27 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 20, 2004, 08:33:52 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
If you've ever given the Saturn pad a decent go you'll like that design much better.
I do own a Saturn, and I don't like the button layout nearly as much as the N64's...But in the end it just boils down to personal taste, which is something that definitely interferes with developing a mass-appeal controller...
Post by: Guitar Smasher on January 20, 2004, 08:43:07 AM
Post by: Kyosho on January 20, 2004, 09:37:28 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on January 20, 2004, 09:42:44 AM
That gives me an interesting idea. Why doesn't Nintendo make more than one model of the controller? All of the models have the same buttons and everything but they have things arranged differently. So they can make the default controller however they like and then make variations. Aside from the obvious arcade style joystick they can make a d-pad centric controller that's kind of like the Dual Shock and maybe a three ponged N64 like controller. As long as each controller has the same buttons people then have the option of getting a controller that fits the types of games they play better without going third party. Since we all need four controllers anyway they might as well give us some options. If all of these models are available from the get-go it doesn't look like they had to change an inferior design.
Post by: MeddmaWamm on January 20, 2004, 10:35:07 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on January 20, 2004, 10:45:35 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 20, 2004, 11:26:01 AM
Post by: AMac2002 on January 20, 2004, 12:01:36 PM
Description: People don't have to look down to obey the on screen command to press the 'B' or 'Y' button – It's position and shape mean you know by feel
(No one has copied yet, although I wish Sony would do something about it. After eight years I still have to check which is square and which is O)
Just because You have to check down, doesn't men every else does. I barely ever play PS2, but when I do, I just ask my friend who owns one where all four buttons are, and I can remember for the rest of the day. Don't blame your poor memory on it...
18.Digital click on Analogue triggers
Description: Another useful function added to an existing idea. For example, in Mario Sunshine, press to run with water, click to lock on the spot and pivot.
(No copy yet, although Sony and Xbox added a click to their analogue sticks)
I'm having a little trouble understanding how Xbox and Ps2 copied the Gamecube control when they came out first.
- All three other companies (Sega, Sony, Microsoft) have released new controller for a system WITHIN a generation to combat features Nintendo's current controller already offered:
Control S coming out had NOTHING to do with the gamecubes controllers. There wasn't ANYthing new added to the S.
- Microsoft released the Xbox 's' controller to combat another feature of the GameCube controller: comfort. Once again, the poor owner of 4 original controllers has to buy another to be able to reach all the buttons.
be able to reach all the buttons? What are you talking about. And I certainly did not buy a new one, I still have three orignals, and one 3rd party ctrlr.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 20, 2004, 12:15:05 PM
Post by: ThePerm on January 20, 2004, 03:43:00 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 20, 2004, 03:49:15 PM
Post by: The Omen on January 20, 2004, 04:14:47 PM
Quote
as far as dual shock goes..actually Sony talked about how they were experimenting with force feedback before nintendo annonced the rumble pak. Simple fact is Ninty just beat Sony to the market.
Of course they said that. Can you imagine a sony exec saying "Heck, we just loved Nintendos idea and took it!"
All i'll say about Nintendo controllers is this-i never have to think about them, which really is the ultimate compliment.
Post by: Djunknown on January 20, 2004, 04:50:53 PM
Notice that it was said that Nintendo was the one to put the memory card IN the controller first, NOT in the console. Sony's idea of putting the Memory card came from somebody else. Guess who? Hold on, wait for it....
Here it is: NEO-Geo was the first console to use some sort of memory card. Granted, it was mainly used to save your high scores and not your progress, SNK gave it to the people first, (Albeit those who could afford) providing an even closer arcade feel by not having your high scores erased once you turn it off.
While one could debate how Sega made a 6 button controller mid-way during the 16 bit wars, you could play Street fighter II with optimal efficeincy. Granted, you could still play somewhat comfortably on the SNES, the arcade feel was lost. And when Super Street fighter 2 came out, don't tell me using the L&R triggers felt right when you were going for high end combos.
While not really an issue today, and basically splitting hairs, playing Capcom VS SNK 2 just doesn't feel right on the 'Cube. Though damn Capcom for using the 6 button scheme as opposed to the four buttons its Dreamcast predessecor used...(Probably one of the reasons if Hyper Street Fighter II ever made it to the US, a 'Cube port is unlikey... *Sniff*)
I DO like the idea of a Nintendo innovations column, but please make sure you do some research beforehand. MY last 2 statements are editoral, so take them as you will, but be cautious when making bold statements. There will always be a nerd waving their index finger
Post by: davidlow122 on January 20, 2004, 05:04:40 PM
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The Atari 2600 had 4 controller ports.
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fair eneough, I suppose Nintendo 're-introduced' the idea to a more recent generation.
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I remember where each button on the PS2 controller is. It isn't very hard.
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It's a pain in the ass to write about! eg, input this SNES (or even Gamecube) code: BBBABYR start, or input this PS2 code L1, L2, square, circle, cross, triangle, R2, start!
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Nintendo uses (Z button) for select button-ish features but those don't really benefit from the button's placement. Third parties try to use it as an action button and run into problems because of Nintendo's half-assed answer to their request.
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It's a pretty standard map button in first party titles (Mario, Metroid), but you are right about third parties. It is meant as a button you remove your finger from R to use (like using C stick and B A X Y at the same time), not an R2 button
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Quote:
"Sony released the Dual Analogue to answer Nintendo's analogue control, and then the Dual Shock to answer Nintendo's Rumble pak feature"
I thought there was only a Dual Shock.
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No, sony actually released an analogue controller first, then the Dual Shock later. The Analogue one looked like the Dual Shock, but with more grip on the sticks. This really pissed off my friend, who bought the Analogue one for Rage Racer, then had to get the Dual shock for certain games, too.
But hasn't it occured to everyone that all four generations of Sony controllers (PS1, Analogue, Dual Shock, PS2) are the same shape? Their 'innovations' are literallytacked on to a ten year old design!
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And to say that Nintendo is stealing Sony's idea of "integrated" Rumble is quite ludicrous.
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Thank you, Deguello!
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Control S coming out had NOTHING to do with the gamecubes controllers. There wasn't ANY thing new added to the S.
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Yes it did (and PS2 as well)! It was the japanese controller, brought out here because of demand, because the other one sucked. What was new was comfort, well, more comfort anyway.
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be able to reach all the [original Xbox controller] buttons? What are you talking about?
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I'm talking about the fact that the original Xbox controller was like hoding two large potatoes, and your thumb had to reach a long way to reach the tiny, crappy buttons, espescially the Black and white ones.
Once again, It is the sheer volume of new things they brought about, not arguments about small revisions.
Any other thoughts?
Post by: AMac2002 on January 20, 2004, 05:31:51 PM
"I'm talking about the fact that the original Xbox controller was like hoding two large potatoes" Well, that's your opinion, w/e, but if you really truly think that, then im sorry.
Post by: MeddmaWamm on January 20, 2004, 11:31:13 PM
Post by: Mario on January 20, 2004, 11:48:36 PM
*drum roll*
Post by: Uglydot on January 21, 2004, 12:21:55 AM
Post by: davidlow122 on January 21, 2004, 12:50:18 AM
Really, I'm not trying to say Sony sucks because they copy Nintendo's ideas (although they do suck for making me buy a new controller mid generation). then Nintendo would suck when they copy ideas too. But give credit where credit is due. Where would we be without Nintendo's developments? Atari joysticks with dual shocks?
It's like asking 'Where would Electric Guitar be if Jimi Hendrix never existed?'. Or, 'Where would Fantasy novels be if Tolkien never lived?' Sure, others would have come up with some or maybe all of the ideas eventually, but how long would it take? And what would we have missed in the meantime?
Anyway sorry about all the opinion in my responses. I wanted to document certain facts, to prove a point. And most of the original article is factual: based on the few points people have argued about, most of you agree. That Nintendo inrtoduced the Type of sticks, controller memory card slot, and name of the Xbox controllers buttons is a fact. That it feels like holding two potatoes is not.
Any suggestions for another 'Innovations' article?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 21, 2004, 01:24:59 AM
Post by: nolimit19 on January 21, 2004, 06:49:01 AM
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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck
um, who cares???
seriously
Post by: AERO on January 21, 2004, 11:27:28 AM
Post by: Myxtika1 Azn on January 21, 2004, 11:44:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Djunknown
And when Super Street fighter 2 came out, don't tell me using the L&R triggers felt right when you were going for high end combos.
I just want to chime in here with an opinion. I find it much easier to perform combos by using the R button as the combo opener (I assign the "Fierce" punch to this button). This frees up my thumb to hit the other 2-4 buttons to finish the combo up. It is much better than moving your thumb all over the place.
Post by: Deguello on January 21, 2004, 12:03:55 PM
Logic is wasted on the ignorant.
I would imagine Nintendo decided to go with integrated rumble because IT WAS THEIR IDEA IN THE FIRST PLACE. You are wrong. Admit it and save some dignity.
Post by: mouse_clicker on January 21, 2004, 12:06:21 PM
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But hasn't it occured to everyone that all four generations of Sony controllers (PS1, Analogue, Dual Shock, PS2) are the same shape? Their 'innovations' are literallytacked on to a ten year old design!
While that is true, there's a good reason for it. As we all know, the Playstation was originally an SNES CD add on that Sony turned into a console after Nintendo backed out of the deal. Obviously when it still was meant to hook up to the SNES, it used an SNES controller. When Sony retooled it into a stand alone console, they modified the controller a bit to make the original PSX controller, adding the handles and extra shoulder buttons, I assume because Sony didn't really expect the Playstation to be all that popular at the beginning. Of course Sony had to keep the same basic controller design throughout the Playstation's life, and then when the PS2 was released, one of its biggest features being backwards compatibility, I'm guessing Sony felt it would be much easier to keep the same controller design instead of making a whole new one and then mapping out the corresponding buttons when people actually do play PSX games. Besides, it IS a very good design, and although I don't think it's perfect, I'd rather Sony not deviate from the design all that much.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 21, 2004, 12:20:35 PM
Post by: thepoga on January 21, 2004, 07:08:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
AWRGU ARGUE ARGUE AHRGEW
i dont know what u said, but here's my thing.
(note: actually i really liked this. if not for a few things that i think are kind of false or not THAT innovative)
6.Buttons named X and Y
Description: Pretty simple, but once again obviously effective since almost everyone has copied it.
( Mega Drive/Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast, Xbox [Playstation, Playstation Dual Shock and PS2 controllers also have an 'X' button])
the “X” on ps controllers are just simple shapes. Its not really copying, because they were trying to make distinct shapes. Shape of a triangle, square, circle, and there aren’t any other things except a diamond but its too similar to a square. So another simple symbol was an X. that's like saying the xbox controller's innovative thing is one black button and one white button(or clear).
11.The rumble feature
Description: While Nintendo gave you an add on free with Starfox to have this feature, Sony made you buy a very expensive new controller for it.
(Playstation Dual Shock, Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox)
and what if u didn’t get starfox? So u have to pay for the controller, and the rumble. Plus add on batteries. I think it was more innovative to add it on the inside, eliminating the need for it. Batteries that is…
12.In controller memory card
Description: Reduced clutter on the front of the console – look at how ugly a PS2 is with several memory cards and a DVD remote plugged in to it. Phased out for Gamecube since Wavebird is a one way signal.
(Dreamcast, Xbox)
ok… in controller memory cards were NOT an innovation. I think it was a very strange idea in fact. It was not on the Gamecube because ITS NOT A GOOD IDEA.
14.the 'Trigger' style shoulder button (Z button)
Description: a shoulder button in a place where it is easier to control, giving a more precision feel. Developed by the Dreamcast controller into the Analogue triggers (in my opinion the most major innovation not from Nintendo)
( Playstation Dual Shock and PS2's second shoulder buttons were widened and brought back from their original playstation controller positions to create some of this effect. Xbox and Gamecube have followed the Dreamcast development)
… I don’t even know what to say to this one. Urg. Z button was not a big great idea. It was basically the “L” button for when u play with the anolog stick.
GameCube
16.The camera stick (C stick)
Description: Development of the C buttons into Analogue format.
(Xbox)
Actually nintendo basically copied the dual shock, in having dual anolog sticks on the controller. Just different placement on them (I like the gamecube’s better however because the main left button thing is the anolog stick instead of a digital pad). And nobody else can develop C buttons, into anything because Nintendo was the only one that had buttons called c buttons. BUT the concept in controlling that camera with c buttons is made by Nintendo, i think… pretty sure… someone check me on this… actually don’t I'm not worth the time.
18.Digital click on Analogue triggers
Description: Another useful function added to an existing idea. For example, in Mario Sunshine, press to run with water, click to lock on the spot and pivot.
(No copy yet, although Sony and Xbox added a click to their analogue sticks)
actually this is a good one. Just wanted to say that the face buttons of ps2 are analog as well. Not sure about the xbox though.
Nintendo dropped the select button two generations ago. Once you had many more accessible buttons, another option button was obsolete. But Sony and Microsoft keep the button, even though it is never used (It's mostly used as an alternate pause to an inventory or map screen (eg. Resident evil). The Gamecube Z button is a better, more modern alternative
The Gamecube z button is just an extra button. Its placement sucks.
I just want to say that u did a great job on this though. Youre a great Nintendo fan. All the rest of the things you mentioned are fantastic. I only had problems with seven of the things u said. But I really………. yeah…
Well anyways great job.
also, mentioned was the ps2 controller by mouse_clicker. youre just plain wrong. the controller sucks. im just messing. ya, the ps2 controller is designed around the SNES controller. its the best controller for ALL types of games. thats the only thing the gamecube cant do as well, fighting and sports. if only they made the D pad a little bigger. man the snes controller was the best.
Post by: Mannypon on January 21, 2004, 09:57:01 PM
Post by: davidlow122 on January 22, 2004, 01:07:02 AM
to Mouse_clicker:
Good point about the backward compatibilty of PS2 controllers. I hadn't thought of that, Point taken. Although I still don't think it's a good design. When using the digital pad (which I do a lot coz the stick sucks for the games I play eg Tony Hawk), my thumb bumps the analogue stick, which affects the game since usually both directional devices do the same thing. The analogue buttons are useless - I've only seen them used as two setting buttons (eg MGS2), and even that's a pain coz you can't brace well eneough.
to thepoga:
Thanks for not being pissed off at the whole thing because you disagreed with some points. I'll respond to some of yours:
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what if u didn’t get starfox? So u have to pay for the controller, and the rumble. Plus add on batteries. I think it was more innovative to add it on the inside, eliminating the need for it. Batteries that is…
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If you didn't get starfox (I didn't), then you buy one for AU$20 (I live in Australia). To replace your PS1 controller (or original analogue controller) with a Dual Shock was AU$70. And while most games Used the rumble pak, none required it. Some ps1 games did require the analogue. So worst case scenario for N64 owner was:
AU$50(controller) + AU$20(rumble) = AU$70
for PS1 owner was:
AU$50(controller) + AU$60(analogue controller) + AU$70(Dual shock) = AU$180.
As for batteries, there were some third party Rumble paks which needed no batteries, and they came out pretty quickly. I have one, it's pretty good. As to why they used batteries when you can do without I have no answer for....
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ok… in controller memory cards were NOT an innovation. I think it was a very strange idea in fact.
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I said why they were good, reduced clutter on the front of the console! some sports and wrestling games allowed four players to save their stats/wrestlers to their own card and load them up individually in the game. So did perfect dark. I missed 4 memory card slots in timesplitter 2, my friends and I had to save our profiles to one memory card and copy them back to our own at the end of a session.
It WAS only removed from the gamecube to accomidate the wavebird, I remember them saying so, pre-launch.
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Urg. [N64]Z button was not a big great idea. It was basically the “L” button for when u play with the anolog stick.
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Most people would disagree with you. It allowed you to grip the prong better with three fingers and hit the 'shoulder' button with more accuracy, like the trigger of a gun. The current triggers on GC and XB feel like the N64 Z.
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Quote:
Actually nintendo basically copied the dual shock, in having dual anolog sticks on the controller. Just different placement on them (I like the gamecube’s better however because the main left button thing is the anolog stick instead of a digital pad). And nobody else can develop C buttons, into anything because Nintendo was the only one that had buttons called c buttons. BUT the concept in controlling that camera with c buttons is made by Nintendo
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I still think a second directional controll on the right is a development of N64 C buttons, or at least the Virtual boy right D-pad.
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Quote:
Nintendo dropped the select button two generations ago. Once you had many more accessible buttons, another option button was obsolete. But Sony and Microsoft keep the button, even though it is never used (It's mostly used as an alternate pause to an inventory or map screen (eg. Resident evil). The Gamecube Z button is a better, more modern alternative
The Gamecube z button is just an extra button. Its placement sucks.
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Yeah, but what about the other point here? The other companies' select button is MUCH further away, and therefore MORE useless. The others are more concerned with convention then Innovation.
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Quote:
I just want to say that u did a great job on this though. Youre a great Nintendo fan. All the rest of the things you mentioned are fantastic. I only had problems with seven of the things u said. But I really………. yeah…
Well anyways great job.
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Thanks! Thats exactly how I would like to be described! I wish more people who worked for alleged 'Fan' sites liked Nintendo as much as I do!
Post by: DrZoidberg on January 22, 2004, 01:17:47 AM
Post by: mouse_clicker on January 22, 2004, 11:22:41 AM
Quote
Although I still don't think it's a good design.
Oh, I definitely think it could be improved, and I hope Sony does so with the PS3 should they use the same basic controller design, but on the whole I like it very much, especially since, as thepoga said, " its the best controller for ALL types of games."- in other words, it's an extremely versatile controller, which is essential for a console that has as varied a lineup as the Playstation.
Post by: AMac2002 on January 22, 2004, 12:16:09 PM
I understand that that was hyperbole, but that really is wrong. The select button on Xbox, or "back" as it's actually called, is used in some games for more of a quick button feature so you don't have to press start and cycle through things, and in a lot of online games for the current scoreboard. It seriously is not a waste, at all.
Post by: WesDawg on January 22, 2004, 01:06:45 PM
I think the Z-Button on the N64 was my favorite button ever on a controller. It was just plain convenient. More convenient that shoulder buttons are/were. It felt different that even the GameCube ones do. The ability to kinda wrap your finger around a button was just nice.
On the rumble dabate, I still don't think it was really an innovation by Nintendo or Sony. The ideas of rumbling joysticks in games, whether you're talking about Force Feedback (which disappeared into nothing it seems) or built-in rumble or expansion packs, it was all the same sort of ideas riding back to the days when arcade racing chairs started to shake when you got hit or rode on something bumpy. I don't know when that started, but its been awhile. I don't think Nintendo had some sort of stroke of genius to put out the rumble pack, or Sony to include it in controllers for that matter. It was a pretty common idea that they just decided to tack on as a selling point for the console/specific games. Heck, most people turn it off that I know. It's kinda annoying. Hence we all own Wavebirds.
Post by: darknight06 on January 22, 2004, 04:57:27 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on January 22, 2004, 10:08:54 PM
Post by: Switchblade Cross on January 23, 2004, 12:51:25 PM
Similar in size and shape to that of the stantard controller for Gamecube
There is no wire protruding from the top only a small button that says "Power" and is depressed as to discourage accidental pressing and must be held for 3 seconds to be powered on or off.
Toward the left sits metalic silver analoge stick, similar to that of the Gamecube's
Toward the bottom right is a similar, albeit smaller, controll stick, placed in a similar spot to that of the Gamecube's C-Stick
On the head of the controller lie silver analoge L and R triggers each with "digital clicks" and slightly infront of each trigger lie Z1 and Z2, each colored grey and very reminicent of the N64 shoulder buttons.
The areas of the controller without the control sticks seems oddly vacant. It is very shiny and glassy to the touch.
As you power up the controller, the face of the controller lights up and, in red, the Nitendo logo is displayed. Soon after you are prompted to touch the number corresponding to the wireless channel you would like to use. The game's title is then displayed and the controller proceeds to creat its own buttons.
This describes what I call and Anamorphic Button Layout. This means the programmers could use the touch sensative LCD controller and creat their own face buttons to suit their game. The are next to the left analog stick could become a decent sized D-Pad, or something completely diffrent.
THE ULTIMATE CONTROLLER!
Post by: Shift Key on January 23, 2004, 05:54:06 PM
I still think the GC button layout (minus the Z trigger) is the best design. The central A button makes navigating easy as pie, and I can't see where that layout can be improved. Can anyone?
Post by: thepoga on January 25, 2004, 01:54:24 PM
Yeah, but what about the other point here? The other companies' select button is MUCH further away, and therefore MORE useless. The others are more concerned with convention then Innovation.
thats why they dont make u have to push the button that much. but u do have to push the Z button quickly in other games like SSBM. and urg... it really killed me a lot in fzero... frickin fzero. that game was a jerk... hehe... i love that game.
Post by: Jale on January 27, 2004, 08:18:33 AM
Ok so they didn't invent and develop the Playstation, that was Sony. However they paid Sony and Phillips to develop a disk system for the SNES (or NES - can't remember) but then pulled the plug because they didn't think it would sell well. The companies continued development and marketed the two systems. The Phillips CD-i pretty much flopped but the Sony Playstation didn't. Therefore without Nintendo the playstation would not exist
Nota Benne: Dont yell at me if this is wrong, I am merely saying what I have heard.
Post by: davidlow122 on July 03, 2004, 08:49:15 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on July 03, 2004, 08:53:32 AM
Post by: davidlow122 on July 03, 2004, 09:08:22 AM
Post by: Oldskool on July 04, 2004, 10:27:44 PM
Post by: Uncle Rich AiAi on July 05, 2004, 02:06:54 AM
Post by: GoldShadow1 on July 12, 2004, 03:47:53 PM
QuoteQuote
it was Sony who came up with the idea of two analog Control Sticks
True, but it does seem however, that it was a lame catch up effort on Sony's part. "You have analogue, well we have.........DUAL analogue!!! You have Rumble, well we have.......DUAL shock!!!
That's a bit unfair. Don't get me wrong, analog control was a huge jump on N64 (SM64 and many other games simply wouldn't have been the same without it), but dual analog is pretty innovative too. I always thought that it would be unwieldy (it is for me, on PS anyway) but the dual analog on GameCube (even with the tiny C-stick) is great for games like TimeSplitters 2, so Sony's idea works, if not the execution. It's not just a matter of adding a second stick, either - playing with dual-analog is a *completely* different and very refreshing experience once you get used to it. I personally would have never thought of dual-analog - it's very unique. To me, before using it it sounded as alien as using two keyboards to type with, or having a third hand coming out of my thigh.
Great list, by the way. I appreciate the work!
Post by: Bill Aurion on July 12, 2004, 03:52:55 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 12, 2004, 05:29:45 PM
Post by: Caillan on July 12, 2004, 07:30:20 PM
Though never suited to fighting games, Nintendo's controllers have always been good. The Dual Shock controller may have had some decent original ideas, but the controller itself sucked. The PS controllers are the only controllers that have ever given me cramps (though I haven't used an X-Box contoller for any long stretch of time.)
Post by: davidlow122 on July 13, 2004, 05:27:30 AM
Perfect Dark [and Goldeneye before that] did support Dual Analog using 2 N64 controllers. WHAT A DOOZY!
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Oh yeah, I totally forgot about that! I used the 2 controller setup in Goldeneye one player, when you got good at it it was awesome! There was also a really free feeling not having to have both hands locked together. I had to stop using it when Goldeneye took off as a party game, and I had to practice with only one controller. (small note: Most good Goldeneye players used control setups that had the stick and c-button suite as move and look or vice versa, a two directional input setup approximating a dual analogue setup. So it was very similar, even on one controller).
Looks like Nintendo were also the first to have a game that utilised dual analogue! BOOYAH!!!!
Man, Nintendo Kicks ass.
Post by: GoldShadow1 on July 14, 2004, 05:43:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Caillan
The Dual Shock controller may have had some decent original ideas, but the controller itself sucked. The PS controllers are the only controllers that have ever given me cramps (though I haven't used an X-Box contoller for any long stretch of time.)
I pretty much agree with this - I didn't like the analog controls on PS (what little I tried of it, anyway) but the idea is solid. (I do like the regular PS1 controller - sans analog - pretty well though)
Post by: evil intentions on July 14, 2004, 07:41:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Caillan
So did GoldenEye, actually. It's hard to get used to, but fun to play.
Though never suited to fighting games, Nintendo's controllers have always been good. The Dual Shock controller may have had some decent original ideas, but the controller itself sucked. The PS controllers are the only controllers that have ever given me cramps (though I haven't used an X-Box contoller for any long stretch of time.)
The GC controllers are the only ones that don't give me cramps. Using the x-box controllers over a long period of time gives me cramps. Especially when I play Mortal Combat: Deadly Allience. Playing that game even for 15 minutes hurts my thumb the most. I have to give the controller off to my cousin and stretch my fingers a bit. Not all the games give me cramps though mainly the ones where you don't use the analog stick. Although, using the PS controllers, no matter what game I play I get cramps.
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on July 19, 2004, 11:45:43 AM
Post by: RABicle on July 20, 2004, 05:49:54 AM
Post by: davidlow122 on August 09, 2004, 06:33:06 AM
Quote
Well it was pretty weak, especially when you count things like naming buttons after letters innovations. Apparently keyboards dont count. I remember reading this ages ago and I don't know why I didn't post.
Hmmm... I didn't call the naming of buttons 'innovations', if you check the top of the original post, you'll see that each point is listed as an 'idea'. The two main points of the article were:
1) Nintendo has invented every single main feature of all standard controllers, Minus the DC's analogue triggers and the PS2's analogue buttons.
2) Nintendo's competitors have shamelessly and repeatedly copied their good ideas without ever adding new ideas. That is, all new controller development comes from Nintendo.
Things Nintendo has invented that have been copied:
the hand controller itself,
digital pad,
option buttons,
two and four button layouts,
shoulder buttons,
handlebar grips,
analouge sticks,
rumble feature,
controller slots,
trigger buttons,
camera controlls (c buttons then c stick),
Real Wireless.
Things Sega has invented that have been copied:
Analogue triggers
Things Sony has invented that have been copied:
Second analogue stick (N64 had dual analogue in Goldeneye before it, and it was only available on a mid generation upgrade controller)
Click on the sticks (L3 and R3) a lame idea that creates dead space in the middle of the stick.
Things Microsoft has invented that have been copied:
Well, not really fair since it's their first, but they basically took a DC controller and ripped off the GC c-stick, then made it huge with crappy little buttons. The Xbox controller is the worst standard controller ever, including the Atari 5200 (or whatever one had the numeric keypad)
