Post by: nolimit19 on November 24, 2003, 04:02:55 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 24, 2003, 04:10:40 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 24, 2003, 04:56:21 PM
You know, that's not really saying much...Kennedy did the best he could to stay off the topic...
But none-the-less, even though he was a cheat, a drugie, and had some shady dealings, he still was a great politician and motivational speaker...I would rather have him back then any of the candidates running for the 2004 election, that's for sure...
RIP JFK
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 24, 2003, 05:02:27 PM
Speaking of Johnson, if you're accusing Kennedy of being a cheat and had some shady dealings, Johnson easily outdid him tenfold. Some even go as far as to say he was responsible for Kennedy's assasination. I wouldn't doubt it- he certainly had the power to cover it up.
Post by: nolimit19 on November 24, 2003, 05:57:35 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 24, 2003, 06:07:08 PM
That's how politics works...The best and fastest way to an American's vote is by acting as if you are one of them, though it seems to work more in the local and state elections...
Speeches can make or break a President's reputation...Look at Bush...He mispronounces a few words and everyone is on his back about it...
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 24, 2003, 06:11:58 PM
And if you're so hung up on why he's overrated, why DOESN'T he deserve his praise? Yes, a lot of things attributed to him were actually carried out by Johnson, but Johnson was mostly becoming up the pieces of Kennedy's shattered presidency. Why ISN'T he such a great president, nolimit. The only presidents I think ever did as much as he did are Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, and Johnson- Harry Truman I might also count among them. Do you think these men don't deserve their credit, either?
Post by: nolimit19 on November 24, 2003, 06:29:52 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 24, 2003, 06:40:42 PM
Post by: nolimit19 on November 24, 2003, 06:58:29 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 25, 2003, 10:37:27 AM
If you want MORE things he did, read my first post- I listed a lot of things he did while he was president, and what he began work on before his death.
Post by: grassfairy on November 25, 2003, 11:19:42 AM
Post by: nolimit19 on November 25, 2003, 11:36:17 AM
Post by: manunited4eva22 on November 25, 2003, 11:37:18 AM
As for how he did so well in the Cuban Missile Crisis, look at him compared to Khruschev, when they met to have conferences in europe, Khruschev kicked Kennedy around like a doll.
Him pulling the missiles out of Turkey was not a move of great heroism, no where near it, it's a move of we won't blow you up as fast if you won't blow us up equally as fast. The move didn't do anything for the world. Bombers were in the air all the time ready to end the world, the fact that someone put's missiles on your borders is a move to intimidate, nothing more.
So what at that time the world could have been blown up 63 times, now its only 26, big deal.
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 25, 2003, 11:38:20 AM
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Mouse, no offense, but Kennedy's advisors like Macnamara's whiz kids where probablly the worst thing to happen to Vietnam. You don't try to set a budget on how many bullets a soldier fires off, or go against facts like that M16's did jam. It cost a whole bunch of guys their lives.[q/]
BESIDES the fact that Kennedy was pulling troops out of Vietnam (I swear, you guys need to learn how to read), Johnson sent more troops INTO Vietnam, and thousands upon thousands of people lost their lives for a war they didn't believe in BECAUSE of that.Quote
As for how he did so well in the Cuban Missile Crisis, look at him compared to Khruschev, when they met to have conferences in europe, Khruschev kicked Kennedy around like a doll.
The first time they met- Kennedy never let Kruschev kick him around again- besides, I hardly see how that one little fact does anything towards discrediting the man. Find BIG things, not little nitpicking details.Quote
Him pulling the missiles out of Turkey was not a move of great heroism, no where near it, it's a move of we won't blow you up as fast if you won't blow us up equally as fast. The move didn't do anything for the world. Bombers were in the air all the time ready to end the world, the fact that someone put's missiles on your borders is a move to intimidate, nothing more.
Obviously you don't understand the Cuban Missile Crisis- it was simply that both America and Russia had nuclear weapons very close, it was their attitude, that they were ready to use them at the first sign of hostility. Any normal man would have broken under the pressure, or launched missiles of his own, effectively destroying the human race. And Kennedy didn't simply remove our missiles from Turkey- that was one stipulation of the agreement that ended the Cuban Missile Crisis. He talked with Kruschev and formulated a plan, and made a big step towards arms control (I believe the first bill of that sort was passed under Johnson).Quote
So what at that time the world could have been blown up 63 times, now its only 26, big deal.
I swear, you people need to read between the lines. It's the simple fact that enough weapons existed to blow up the world once, and not only that, but both the USSR and America had every intention of using their weapons as soon as it looked like war would break out. That same sentiment does not exist now, so it wouldn't matter if we even had more weapons now than then- the incentive to use them doesn't exist now.
Post by: nolimit19 on November 25, 2003, 11:42:58 AM
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 25, 2003, 11:49:42 AM
Post by: nolimit19 on November 25, 2003, 12:01:14 PM
Post by: Mutated on November 25, 2003, 12:06:16 PM
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I had to do a report on JFK and he was a GREAT president...but of course there was also that whole big thing on having an affair with his secretary and I don't think that's a very good thing for a president to do, really.
Everyone makes mistakes, grassfairy. And besides, that doesn't affect how well of a president he was during his 3 years in office.
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 25, 2003, 12:07:20 PM
Post by: Mutated on November 25, 2003, 12:10:05 PM
I didn't say anything about any of that...I think JFK was a great president! 
Post by: nolimit19 on November 25, 2003, 12:15:54 PM
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Originally posted by: Mutated
We shouldn't really be judging Kennedy. Kennedy did good and bad things, but imagine how hard it is to be president! He did a lot of good things for our country, and in my opinion its really upsetting of what happened in 1963... I think he could have done a lot more for our country if he had the chance, which he obviously doesn't.
you see i completly agree with that. there is nothing there i can disagree with. my whole point is not that kennedy was bad, or wasnt good, or was evil...but that he is just over rated. jimmy carter won the nobel peace prize, so i dont know what you are going off about mouse....you are obviously blinded by the media that i am complaining about. jimmy carter (although i definitely dont take the same political stances as he) did a lot in terms of world peace. i dont know a lot about kennedy, and i think that because there isnt much to know. maybe im wrong, and i want someone to prove me wrong, but it seems like kennedy is just a dream that people like to think about and pretend that the whole situation was better then it was.
Post by: Mutated on November 25, 2003, 12:18:38 PM
Post by: nolimit19 on November 25, 2003, 12:23:42 PM
Post by: Mutated on November 25, 2003, 01:29:27 PM
Post by: Short Girlie on November 25, 2003, 03:18:37 PM
Post by: The Omen on November 25, 2003, 04:50:48 PM
Post by: nolimit19 on November 25, 2003, 06:10:10 PM
there is lots of information on lincolns racism. i think the important thing to learn from things like this is to not make something or someone into an idol. you can admire kennedy for the hope he instilled in people, you can like kobe for his eratic shot selection, or you can even like long john silver for his really cool name, but just because they did good things or have cool characteristics doesnt mean they are these great all around people. thats the trouble with american history and that why i started this thread...in hope of finding a less bias view on what made this guy so "great". the media just spits out all this nonsense about camelot that is just a bunch of propoganda and it seems like they are trying to do him the same injustice they did many of out former presidents.
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 25, 2003, 06:14:46 PM
Post by: manunited4eva22 on November 26, 2003, 04:46:24 AM
SOURCE: Information for this article was derived from an article in the Los Angeles Times, Orange Co. Edition, Book Review, 9 April, 2000, entitled, "Was Abraham Lincoln A Racist?" by Eric Foner. If the reader is wondering why this page is red with a black border, it is symbolic of the links between the U.S. republic and Naziism, red and black being the blood-colors of the Nazi flag.
Post by: Jdub03 on November 26, 2003, 05:42:40 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on November 26, 2003, 07:19:50 AM
That must not work in Canada since we've had Jean Chretien for the last hundred years of so. The guy pronouces "look at the cars on the road" as "look at de car on de road". The joke is that he can't speak English or French. "Happy Birdday Canada!"
Anyway I've always felt that Kennedy gets a lot of praise partially because of his death. If you think about it he went out on top. He died before people really had a chance to dislike him. I don't think his death is the only reason he's remembered but I'll bet you if he didn't die and then royally f*cked something up people would be convienently forgeting a lot of the good stuff he did. Often people are remembered for their most recent work. And no human leader will ever be perfect because no human is perfect.
And there's no way to explain politics because logic doesn't seem to imply. Bill Clinton cheats on his wife and then lies to the American public UNDER OATH and his approval rating goes up. George W. Bush mispronounces another country's name and people accuse him of being an idiot. Politics are just plain weird.
Post by: twinkletoes on November 26, 2003, 12:06:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: nolimit19
http://www.worldfreeinternet.net/news/nws198.htm
there is lots of information on lincolns racism. i think the important thing to learn from things like this is to not make something or someone into an idol. you can admire kennedy for the hope he instilled in people, you can like kobe for his eratic shot selection, or you can even like long john silver for his really cool name, but just because they did good things or have cool characteristics doesnt mean they are these great all around people. thats the trouble with american history and that why i started this thread...in hope of finding a less bias view on what made this guy so "great". the media just spits out all this nonsense about camelot that is just a bunch of propoganda and it seems like they are trying to do him the same injustice they did many of out former presidents.
That's just plain stupid, nolimit. Abe was not racist. Being president is also not the easiest thing to do, and you can't always believe what you read. Abe was a great president so stop saying hes racist cause he isnt. And a lot of people were racist at that time but that doesn't mean everybody was racist.
Post by: nolimit19 on November 26, 2003, 12:20:11 PM
edit: no one argues about kennedys afair. he had them, and plenty of them...and he also had a drug problem because of some disease....i cant remember what. im not saying these people are bad people, just that they arent the heros that we are taught they are.
Post by: ThePerm on November 26, 2003, 12:23:22 PM
and Kennedy really didn't do anything that special really save the space program. Missle Crisis? Does anyone want to be blown up? I think anyone can agree that its best not to blow each other up if there is no need to.
Post by: nolimit19 on November 26, 2003, 12:32:18 PM
Post by: twinkletoes on November 26, 2003, 12:34:47 PM
Post by: nolimit19 on November 26, 2003, 12:37:00 PM
Post by: The Omen on November 26, 2003, 12:55:11 PM
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edit: no one argues about kennedys afair. he had them, and plenty of them...and he also had a drug problem because of some disease....
He had a debilitating disease which made it hard for him to walk or sit up straight. I hardly blame him for being addicted to the only drugs available that could lesson his pain. Its widely known, had he lived to the next election, he wouldn't of made it through the term. He was in so much pain, he often had to wear a back brace so he wouldn't slouch in his chair.
Quote
And there's no way to explain politics because logic doesn't seem to imply. Bill Clinton cheats on his wife and then lies to the American public UNDER OATH and his approval rating goes up.
Just about every president cheats on his wife. And Clinton was more personable, likeable. Bush is easy to dislike. Thats all it ever comes down to. To us, sex and cheating matter little . We don't care what they do unless you're a staunch Republican, then you'll always hate the democrats, and vice versa. The reason Clintons ratings went up was because the american people thought it was a witchhunt, and it was, from the Republicans.
Post by: nolimit19 on November 26, 2003, 01:02:29 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on November 26, 2003, 01:33:18 PM
I wasn't complaining about his cheating tendencies (though I'm not fond of that) but rather that he lied under oath to the American public. Supporting a president who lied to your face is idiotic. Plus since he lied under oath it means he also commited a crime on national television and got away with it.
Post by: nolimit19 on November 26, 2003, 01:39:03 PM
Post by: The Omen on November 26, 2003, 04:16:56 PM
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thats the problem i had with him too....who cares that he cheated on his wife, (its horrible, but nothing to get you kicked out of office) but he lied under oath. i just dont see how people still stick up for him for that.
Yes, he lied under oath...about something that he shouldn't of been targeted for anyway. No pesidents have ever been attacked for anything like that. And i'm not a Clinton fan, not even Democrat, but i can see it for what it was...republicans hated him, and thats the dirt they could dig up. Just remember, all of them lie under oath at some point, we just don't know about it. We are dealing with politicians here, the scum of the earth.
Post by: nolimit19 on November 27, 2003, 04:03:43 AM
Post by: manunited4eva22 on November 27, 2003, 04:25:44 AM
Post by: The Omen on November 27, 2003, 06:55:02 AM
Post by: kennyb27 on November 27, 2003, 02:40:53 PM
One major reason JFK was so liked is because he was so young. Hear me out before attacking me. He gave the American people reason to believe that America was still young at heart and things could change (which was obviously necessary at the time). You can't say that he didn't do that to the nation like no other president has.
QuoteWhich is one reason he actually died that day. After the first shot, human reflexes would be to slouch over in pain. However, because of the brace he was wearing in the car, he couldn't, allowing the other shots an easier path.
He was in so much pain, he often had to wear a back brace so he wouldn't slouch in his chair.
Post by: ThePerm on November 27, 2003, 06:17:36 PM
Post by: Jdub03 on December 02, 2003, 07:30:52 AM
1865: “I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others. Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.”(Lincoln, 1953, v8, p360-1) ~Abraham Lincol
I dont believe Clinton was a bad president just for receiving favors from monica. There are many other factors that imo deemed him an unfit president. One minor reason is the fact that he got caught, and then tried to deceive everyone. He actually thought he could do it too. This is not a good sign for the head of our country. The president, or any other leader of a nation, should always be truthful to the public. What else was he being deceitful about. I also did not agree with some of the things he stood for.
Post by: nolimit19 on December 02, 2003, 09:54:02 AM
Post by: manunited4eva22 on December 02, 2003, 11:21:51 AM
Well gee, why don't we go 140 years in the future and see how our stances on issues are similar to the people then. I'm more than sure we would be considered absolutely brutish.
Post by: twinkletoes on December 02, 2003, 01:35:38 PM
YOU HAVE SHOWN ME THE LIGHT! lol
Post by: Hostile Creation on December 02, 2003, 01:49:13 PM
JFK, I believe, does not deserve most of the splendor he receives. I don't know why everyone assumes that the President is responsible for everything that happens in the country. . . he usually just gives the okay, so it's hardly his fault if it fails or his accomplishment if he succeeds. Sure, JFK okayed some okay plans, but he undoubtedly screwed quite a few over as well. The only one I know of offhand was the Bay of Pigs operation. . . something to do with Cuba, I think perhaps a coup d'etat of Castro. Anyway, the CIA botched it and pissed off the Cubans, and I think that was the cause of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
He was an average President at best. . . most of them are.
I hate politics.
Post by: The Omen on December 02, 2003, 04:20:07 PM
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The president, or any other leader of a nation, should always be truthful to the public.
Don't be so naive. That is not how politics work.
Quote
JFK, I believe, does not deserve most of the splendor he receives. I don't know why everyone assumes that the President is responsible for everything that happens in the country. . . he usually just gives the okay, so it's hardly his fault if it fails or his accomplishment if he succeeds.
For the most part, JFK stood up for his convictions, and thats one of the reasons he is gone. He took on taboo issues, like the mafia, who the CIA and even his own father were involved with. When he , and later to a larger extent, his brother Robert, started talking about organized crime, many in politics and the underworld knew they had to get rid of him. And thats what they did. You don't get assassinated for toeing the company line. Start reading up on why people give him so much respect, despite his short comings before you judge him. If you saw footage of the funeral, how many people from out of state drove there, and how many people were affected by him, you may change your mind. That never happened prior, nor will it ever happen again.
Post by: Hostile Creation on December 02, 2003, 04:35:53 PM
I'm not saying, however, that he did not deserve some respect. Simply the position of President should earn some respect, and he definitely wasn't the worst we've ever had. But I don't believe that he deserves any more recognition than the next man.
Post by: twinkletoes on December 02, 2003, 04:43:27 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on December 02, 2003, 04:44:32 PM
Post by: twinkletoes on December 02, 2003, 04:52:28 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on December 02, 2003, 04:58:05 PM
Post by: twinkletoes on December 02, 2003, 05:27:43 PM
But if it was stupid of me, then it was stupid of you.
