Post by: THE_BLINK_EFFECT on November 21, 2003, 04:52:27 PM
ouble dash that was good but not a Nintendo classic if you no what i mean...But then again theres totally awesome games like wind maker, metroid prime, super mario sunshine etc.
I just hope games like metriod prime 2 and wind maker 2 arent total dissapointments.
Post by: GaimeGuy on November 21, 2003, 05:09:08 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 21, 2003, 06:32:50 PM
Post by: Gamebasher on November 22, 2003, 02:58:04 AM
Gamebasher.
Post by: PIAC on November 22, 2003, 03:39:27 AM
either way i don't think Nintendo has lost it's touch at all, not only is it still putting out FUN games, it's increasing the amount of fun to be had on it's console via lending of franchises and strengthening of it's third party support. go nintendo.
Post by: Hostile Creation on November 22, 2003, 04:24:43 AM
But they're not. Not for me, anyway.
Post by: akdaman1 on November 22, 2003, 08:16:25 AM
I think Nintendo have got much better when it comes to buisness decisions , just wait till the next generation and you will know waht i mean..
Post by: GaimeGuy on November 22, 2003, 08:58:33 AM
See a pattern? The first 3D versions of Nintendo's franchises are instant success, and then, people expect the NEXT game in the series to be even MORE revolutionary, setting themselvs up for a dissappointment.
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 22, 2003, 09:14:17 AM
This is the problem...
Post by: seven_chaos on November 22, 2003, 09:35:14 AM
And NO Nintendo is not losing their touch. Just wait until they show all the new characters and such that they're working on.
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on November 22, 2003, 12:34:28 PM
Post by: Shadow Link on November 22, 2003, 01:06:25 PM
All that the N64 had over GameCube was those two games and thats it. GameCube has surpassed the N64 in every other way.
Post by: WesDawg on November 22, 2003, 01:51:06 PM
Post by: GaimeGuy on November 22, 2003, 05:54:56 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 22, 2003, 06:08:33 PM
In any case, that's exactly what Shadow Link meant- look at what Goldeney did for the N64, and look at what Halo did for the XBox when it was exclusive (and what's it's STILL doing even when it's not exclusive). Halo was especially a blow to Nintendo because they didn't have any big name exclusive FPS of their own to compete with it, so anyone looking for a shooting game on a console naturally went for the XBox first without even considering a Gamecube. Hopefully Geist will rectify some of that, but I doubt it'll have much of an impact.
Post by: savanna03 on November 22, 2003, 08:08:23 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 22, 2003, 08:11:41 PM
Post by: Darc Requiem on November 22, 2003, 09:53:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Look at Wind Waker! Look at Metroid Prime! Look at Eternal Darkness! Look at Starfox Adventures! Look at F-Zero GX! Nintendo IS pushing the Gamecube to the limits.
While Wind Waker was impressive the other three games you listed weren't by Nintendo. Silicon Knights produced ED, Rare was responsible for SFA, and Sega's AV was responsible for F-Zero. When it comes to game produces by EAD Nintendo has disappointed IMO. The best games for Gamecube aren't by EAD on the GC. My favorite GC games aren't by EAD. Thats a first for me when it comes to a Nintendo console. With as many of the the Big N's franchises farmed out for GC. I was expected games from EAD that impressed none of them did. Wind Waker was good but it was a cell shaded Ocarina of Time. Super Mario Sunshine wasn't a bad game by any means and the high difficulty was a throw back to older Nintendo games but it didn't wow me. There hasn't been on GC game from Nintendo's EAD that has blown me away on Gamecube most EAD games seemed rushed to me. Given the fact that EAD wasn't under the strain it was during the N64 era I'm quite disappointed.
Darc Requiem
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on November 22, 2003, 10:11:16 PM
Post by: Shadow Link on November 22, 2003, 10:14:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Darc RequiemQuote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Look at Wind Waker! Look at Metroid Prime! Look at Eternal Darkness! Look at Starfox Adventures! Look at F-Zero GX! Nintendo IS pushing the Gamecube to the limits.
While Wind Waker was impressive the other three games you listed weren't by Nintendo. Silicon Knights produced ED, Rare was responsible for SFA, and Sega's AV was responsible for F-Zero. When it comes to game produces by EAD Nintendo has disappointed IMO. The best games for Gamecube aren't by EAD on the GC. My favorite GC games aren't by EAD. Thats a first for me when it comes to a Nintendo console. With as many of the the Big N's franchises farmed out for GC. I was expected games from EAD that impressed none of them did. Wind Waker was good but it was a cell shaded Ocarina of Time. Super Mario Sunshine wasn't a bad game by any means and the high difficulty was a throw back to older Nintendo games but it didn't wow me. There hasn't been on GC game from Nintendo's EAD that has blown me away on Gamecube most EAD games seemed rushed to me. Given the fact that EAD wasn't under the strain it was during the N64 era I'm quite disappointed.
Darc Requiem
Firstly Eternal Darkness, Starfox, Metroid and F-Zero have all had input from Nintendo and are Designed for the Nintendo GameCube. They are all first party Nintendo games which Nintendo have assisted in creating.
As for Zelda im not even going to begin with how patetic your statement was there, a cel* shaded ocarina of time? I dont think so.
Whilst EAD's games havent been pushing the GameCube to its limits most of the games EAD create dont need to. I mean look at Mario Sunshine is it suposed to be realistic? Nope so how are you going to make it push the cube to the limits. Sure they could have done some texture work but its not worth it for somthing so insignificant. Zelda the Wind Waker in my opinion pushes the GameCube when you consider that there is no Load times and it loads those huge worlds and ocean etc. Zelda the Wind Waker is easilly the best Cel shaded game ive seen to date.
In my opinion there honestly hasnt been any EAD game that could greatly benefit from pushing the Cube to its limits. There is also time constrants that may hinder EAD's efforts of really polishing a game. Companies like Rareware and Retro arent working on as many games as EAD.
EAD had alot of Input on games like Metroid Prime. The Samus model in Metroid Prime was created with the assitance of EAD. EAD did the music. And EAD assisted with the game design.
grrr DONT diss EAD.
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 23, 2003, 03:38:22 AM
Quote
Silicon Knights produced ED, Rare was responsible for SFA, and Sega's AV was responsible for F-Zero
I see no difference- besides the fact Denis Dyack himself does not make a distringuishment between "Nintendo" and "Silicon Knights", Nintendo has a HUGE had in developing all of the games they publish, not just their own, and that includes Eternal Darkness, Starfox Adventures, and F-Zero GX.
Quote
Zelda the Wind Waker is easilly the best Cel shaded game ive seen to date.
Not only the best looking cel shaded game to date, but one of the best looking games period- I just got s-video cables for my Gamecube and was blown away by how great Wind Waker looks.
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on November 23, 2003, 09:02:05 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on November 23, 2003, 10:02:16 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on November 23, 2003, 11:06:18 AM
Post by: Stimutacs Addict on November 23, 2003, 11:08:31 AM
In fact, Super Mario Sunshine is probably more different from SUper MArio 64 than Super Mario World is from Super Mario 3. For once, Nintendo abandoned the traditional (some may say clichéd, but I hate that word with a passion) levels (desert, snow land, water area, etc.). Instead, we got locales such as Ricco Harbor (i love that one) and .. uh.. the other levels (the names have slipped my mind)
i like Super Mario Sunshine. I just don't like the coin collecting (just like i dont like the triforce collecting in LoZ: WW
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 23, 2003, 11:30:03 AM
The problem nowadays is that everyone is spoiled by the technological advances in gaming hardware, and unfortunately, game developers are also blinded by this...More and more you see games that are all glitter, and no substance, yet people still go out and buy them because "they look cool"...It's sad that the casual gamer is feeding the fire to the videogame industry's destruction...I'll end on this note: you should listen to yourselves and think about your gaming habits...Ask yourselves, "What do I enjoy most about my games?" If you buy games because they are pretty, I pity you, because that is a truely pathetic reason to be a gamer...
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 23, 2003, 11:46:13 AM
Quote
Just in case anyone didn't know, EAD doesn't push themselves hard on the graphical side of things on purpose...It never bothered me in the past, it doesn't bother me now, and it sure as hell won't bother me in the future...
Exactly! Although I certainly wouldn't mind EAD spending a bit more time on the graphics, it is by no means necessary and I will not like the game any less because of it.
Post by: savanna03 on November 23, 2003, 01:16:19 PM
their are 4 keys in creating a succesfull game today.
1) MARKETING - u have to spread the news...
2) GRAPHICS - u need graphics to attract consumer...
3) GAMEPLAY - u need the gameplay to get the gamers hook...
4) STORY - u need a good plot to intise the gamers to keep going playing...
if u dont believe me, name all the million sellers games that had 3 or all of this things that ive describe.
ill start off with METAL GEAR SOLID, FINAL FANTASY, THE LEGEND OF ZELDA and etc.
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 23, 2003, 01:27:24 PM
As for your list, look at the best selling game of all time, Super Mario Bros. 3- its story was almost nonexistant and its graphics weren't that great even for its time period. Or look at SMB 1- same thing, except even less of a story and worse graphics. Zelda isn't a good example, either, because its stories have traditionally been rather thin- Miyamoto himself says the story is usually the last thing he thinks about in a game. You don't NEED graphics to attract consumers- the graphics should heighten their experience while playing the game, but it shouldn't be what entices them to buy it in the first place. I will never not buy a game because it has bad graphics.
Post by: PIAC on November 23, 2003, 02:51:22 PM
just to echo bill and MC (hammer?)'s comments, brilliant graphics are good, no-one is doubting that, i would rather play a great game with great graphics than a great game with poor graphics, having said that i would MUCH rather pay a great game with pathetic graphics than a pathetic game with great graphics. and here come the inevidable examples, Skies of Arcaida Legends and Phantasy Star Online, two dreamcast ports for the Gamecube, two of my most favorite gamecube games, the reason for this? they are just plain FUN to play. Ocarina of Time vs Wind Waker, i find OoT more fun, because i personally feel the gameplay is superior to WW's and WW looks ALOT better than OoT. same could be said for Yoshi's Island on SNES and Yoshi's Story for n64, i prefered YI to YS for the same reason.
Quote
everyone seems to slack off in the graphics department... thats what i meant they loose their touch.
heh. to lose their touch would be to nolonger make games that are fun. the end.
lets all eat ice cream.
Post by: BigJim on November 23, 2003, 03:17:19 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 23, 2003, 03:18:59 PM
Post by: Mario on November 23, 2003, 04:05:15 PM
QuoteWhat about Super Mario Sunshine? That has fantastic graphics, much better than 90% of the other games out there. And Pokemon Colloseum looks great from what i've seen of it, very impressive.
Originally posted by: savanna03
i admit that WIND WAKER is beautiful but what about SUPER MARIO SUSHINE, what about GENIOUS SONORITY's on POKEMON COLLISEUM, what about HAL LABRATORIES' KIRBY AIR RIDE, what about other NINTENDO JAPANESE STUDIO where everyone seems to slack off in the graphics department... thats what i meant they loose their touch.
Quote
their are 4 keys in creating a succesfull game today.
1) MARKETING - u have to spread the news...
2) GRAPHICS - u need graphics to attract consumer...
3) GAMEPLAY - u need the gameplay to get the gamers hook...
4) STORY - u need a good plot to intise the gamers to keep going playing...
if u dont believe me, name all the million sellers games that had 3 or all of this things that ive describe.
ill start off with METAL GEAR SOLID, FINAL FANTASY, THE LEGEND OF ZELDA and etc.
Grand Theft Auto 3. It had no marketing or hype before it came out, it doesn't have impressive graphics (not even for it's time), and had a fairly lame story. It sold millions based on its gameplay and content.
I definately do not think Nintendo are losing their touch. While i agree that there are alot of talented developers out there that are emerging, it seems like Japanese developers are staying as good as they always are, while western companys like EA and Ubi Soft, are getting stronger, better and more talented by the day.
I think Nintendo need to expand themselves out a bit more. Their games this gen, while i think they are better, they just dont seem to have that massive Nintendo polish to them, and not enough time was spent developing them. I could be way off the mark, because i have no idea how much money, effort and time Nintendo put into each seperate game, but i do think that their latest games could be better.
Back in the N64 days, there were LOTS of delays, but that led to better products. This gen, there has been hardly any delays, and as a result the games seem to lacking something. I wish Nintendo had delayed Zelda: TWW, but apparently Miyamoto just had to get it out in Japan before christmas last year. Imagine if it had been in develepment longer, we would still end up getting the game, and it would be even more awesome than it already is.
Pikmin 2 was apparently delayed because Nintendo wanted to make a better product for us gamers, which makes me put my happy hat on and smile. I believe Nintendo should delay their games if neccesary, but it seems this gen they are too busy thinking about timing, and where to fill gaps in their release schedule in order to gain more sales, and money seems to be more important to them than gamers. I think... i dont really know anything for sure, none of us know what goes on down at Nintendo. Meh, i hope that all made sense and i got my point across... [/rant that came from nowhere]
Post by: Darc Requiem on November 23, 2003, 06:39:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shadow LinkQuote
Originally posted by: Darc RequiemQuote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Look at Wind Waker! Look at Metroid Prime! Look at Eternal Darkness! Look at Starfox Adventures! Look at F-Zero GX! Nintendo IS pushing the Gamecube to the limits.
While Wind Waker was impressive the other three games you listed weren't by Nintendo. Silicon Knights produced ED, Rare was responsible for SFA, and Sega's AV was responsible for F-Zero. When it comes to game produces by EAD Nintendo has disappointed IMO. The best games for Gamecube aren't by EAD on the GC. My favorite GC games aren't by EAD. Thats a first for me when it comes to a Nintendo console. With as many of the the Big N's franchises farmed out for GC. I was expected games from EAD that impressed none of them did. Wind Waker was good but it was a cell shaded Ocarina of Time. Super Mario Sunshine wasn't a bad game by any means and the high difficulty was a throw back to older Nintendo games but it didn't wow me. There hasn't been on GC game from Nintendo's EAD that has blown me away on Gamecube most EAD games seemed rushed to me. Given the fact that EAD wasn't under the strain it was during the N64 era I'm quite disappointed.
Darc Requiem
Firstly Eternal Darkness, Starfox, Metroid and F-Zero have all had input from Nintendo and are Designed for the Nintendo GameCube. They are all first party Nintendo games which Nintendo have assisted in creating.
As for Zelda im not even going to begin with how patetic your statement was there, a cel* shaded ocarina of time? I dont think so.
Whilst EAD's games havent been pushing the GameCube to its limits most of the games EAD create dont need to. I mean look at Mario Sunshine is it suposed to be realistic? Nope so how are you going to make it push the cube to the limits. Sure they could have done some texture work but its not worth it for somthing so insignificant. Zelda the Wind Waker in my opinion pushes the GameCube when you consider that there is no Load times and it loads those huge worlds and ocean etc. Zelda the Wind Waker is easilly the best Cel shaded game ive seen to date.
In my opinion there honestly hasnt been any EAD game that could greatly benefit from pushing the Cube to its limits. There is also time constrants that may hinder EAD's efforts of really polishing a game. Companies like Rareware and Retro arent working on as many games as EAD.
EAD had alot of Input on games like Metroid Prime. The Samus model in Metroid Prime was created with the assitance of EAD. EAD did the music. And EAD assisted with the game design.
grrr DONT diss EAD.
First of all I'm not "dissing" EAD. I'm stating that in my opinion EAD hasn't been producing the quality of games they are known for. I've owned every Nintendo console and every generation I've played at least two or three EAD titles that were amazing. I haven't felt that about any EAD games on Gamecube. EAD games have still been good to great on GC, that said they haven't been the best games on GC to me.
You said that there hasn't been a EAD game that could greatly benefit from pushing the Cube to its limits. I agree with you to a certain extent. As Nintendo gamers graphics aren't as big of a deal to us. If EAD titles pushed the Cube to its limits they would be more likely to catch the eye of mainstream gamers. Nintendo needs to expand their audience so they're games get more exposure outside of us hard core fans. Yes EAD was a good influence on Metroid Prime's design but thats to be expected. MP was the first Metroid game in 8 years, Nintendo couldn't afford to disappointed and they didn't.
As for my statement of about Wind Waker being a Cel-Shaded Ocarina of Time it was in my opinion. The gameplay was near identical with exception of the aquatic travel. Thats how I felt when I played Wind Waker. My statement isn't pathetic just because it doesn't conform to your opinion. My opinion differs from your all you had to say is I don't agree with your statement because...and list why you disagree. Most people I know like Zelda 1 better than Zelda 2 I don't. I prefer Zelda 2. I don't call people that prefer Zelda 1 pathetic. They are entitled to their opinion.
Darc Requiem
Post by: savanna03 on November 23, 2003, 06:52:10 PM
as for SUPER MARIO BROS. 3, i disagree with u... the GRAPHICS was advance for its time... tell me that the GRAPHICS wasn't good compare to SUPER MARIO BROS. 1 and 2. if u said no, i think ur lying. 3 out of 4, MARKETING, GRAPHICS and GAMEPLAY. as for SUPER MONKEY BALL, i dont know... if u compared to part 2, it didn't sell quite good compared to the original, maybe they just fluke it during launch. 1 out of 4, GAMEPLAY and beside i didn't think that SMB even reach a million seller.
oh about MIYAMOTO said about the story was the last thing in his mind... well i found an irony with that. remember that TLC program about the HISTORY OF VIDEOGAME... MIYAMOTO part came up. his first game was DONKEY KONG and do u know what he said upon making his game. he wanted to make things different from other arcade game back then. he said he wanted to have a STORY in it about a jump man trying to save his girlfriend from this big ape. i say take all the good things from it rather than just taking one. evolve the STORY not just the GAMEPLAY.
i would like to say that im not this NEW GENERATION of gamers... i been playing NINTENDO games since it was original launch. i pick GAMEPLAY over GRAPHICS anytime. but my only concern is that NINTENDO isn't evolving with the game industry and i believe that is why they are lagging behind in N64 and GCN. i have to agree with ED FRIES(check the new EGM interview) when he critize the BIG N. they still think that ANALOGE is still better while they didn't realize that DIGITAL is far superior.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on November 23, 2003, 07:05:31 PM
D'OH!
Post by: Anbesol on November 23, 2003, 07:11:21 PM
okay, who made that "silicon knights made ED, sega made F-Zero" comment has some brain deficiencies. the whole development of ed was overseen, supervised by nintendo.
hmm... nintendo losing their touch? please! sure they keep pummelling out great games year after year, but, i think theyre "losing their touch"...
wtf did that come from?
Post by: Inkwell on November 23, 2003, 07:11:53 PM
Anyway, this "gameplay over graphics" is so stupid in my opinion. I see it like this...what is the point of making a new system that is capable of offering the graphics, the gameplay, and more but you just continue to focus on "better gameplay". That is just BS, why can't we have "gameplay and the graphics". Is there a problem in doing a game that has outstanding graphics and outstanding gameplay without dilluting the other, is it that hard? Isn't that the point of making a new system that can easily offer both gameplay and graphics to the consumer.
Post by: ghostVi on November 24, 2003, 02:09:59 AM
Just trying to read and understand your post... it turns out "better gameplay" is not that much of BS, now isn't it?Anyway. I personally wasn't there watching Nintendo all the previous generations, just had some fun on friends' GB / SNES with some Mario, Mario Kart and Zelda. I got fond of them by playing Metroid Prime and Zelda: The Wind Waker, so i guess - NO Nintendo didn't loose their touch IMO, on the contrary, they got better.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on November 24, 2003, 04:09:41 AM
In fact, they touch much more often, in many more places.
Post by: nolimit19 on November 24, 2003, 05:51:55 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on November 24, 2003, 06:51:53 AM
Good point. I think Pikmin is the only Cube game Miyamoto himself as directed and sure enough it's the only EAD game that really wowed me. All the other ones lacked that same magical feel. I think they're spreading Miyamoto thin and would probably be better off if they had him dedicate himself to one or two titles at a time instead of supervising over everything. I'd rather see a slight dip in the quality of Nintendo's other games if it meant a better Mario and Zelda.
Though I haven't been as impressed with Nintendo this generation as I have in the past I don't think they've lost their touch just yet. Retro Studios, Silicon Knights, HAL (Smash Bros makes up for Kirby Air Ride), & Intelligent Systems (okay they're GBA but they're still Nintendo) have all been great. EAD is the only one to seemingly "lose their touch" and that's because of the Miyamoto issue I mentioned above.
I think the real problem is that a lot of the gameplay experiences that were exclusive to the N64 are no longer exclusive to the Gamecube so it doesn't seem as relevant and gives the illusion that Nintendo has lost it. During the 32/64 bit generation the N64 was for the most part the only choice if you liked platformers, console first-person-shooters, wrestling games, multiplayer games, and Zelda. That's not the case with the Gamecube.
The PS2 now has more exclusive platformers than the Cube. When you've got Jak & Daxter, Sly Cooper, and Ratchet & Clank, there's not as much of a desire or need for Mario. Plus without Rare Mario is the only exclusive platformer on the console. I don't think there are any exclusive FPS games on the Cube. You could argue Metroid Prime but that certainly doesn't play like a traditional FPS. Rare is gone so there's no more Goldeneye or PD. Halo is the FPS to get and the Xbox is the FPS console to get. Wrestling games in general now almost always suck and the Cube seems to always get the worst of the WWE games. The Cube isn't the only console with four controllers anymore so multiplayer games are also on Xbox. Plus online play is a new way to play multiplayer console games and it's not on Gamecube. Zelda remains but that alone isn't enough.
What Nintendo really has to do to get people talking about them again and to silence is the critics is to make something new that isn't available on the other consoles. GTA3 did this for the PS2 and that's partially why that console has maintained such a lead. Metroid Prime and Pikmin were good examples of something amazing that's only available on the Cube but there needs to be more than that. Nintendo can "regain their touch" if the N5 launches with something that is not available anywhere else.
Post by: Fish on November 24, 2003, 07:07:16 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on November 24, 2003, 07:27:09 AM
Post by: Fish on November 24, 2003, 07:47:37 AM
*EDITED*, misspelled Yamada as Yamda, probably misspelled lot of other stuff too.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on November 24, 2003, 12:06:34 PM
Though these days he seems to be a diplomat of sorts visiting Nintendo dev houses and 3rd parties.
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 24, 2003, 12:13:43 PM
