Post by: Walking In Shadow on August 01, 2003, 11:17:44 AM
The article can be read here -- www.nintendojo.com
Post by: Stimutacs Addict on August 01, 2003, 11:26:27 AM
stick with PGC, IGN, maybe Gamespot
i hate G4 TV's "Judgement Day" show, its too focused on graphics
Post by: Walking In Shadow on August 01, 2003, 11:33:22 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on August 01, 2003, 12:11:19 PM
And from what I've played of it so far I think it's pretty safe to say Soul Calibur II really IS that good.
Post by: >X< Kitten >X< on August 01, 2003, 12:15:01 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 01, 2003, 12:15:30 PM
10, in MANY outlets, is like saying "best thus far" or "leader of the pack".
Post by: DRJ on August 01, 2003, 01:17:44 PM
I personnaly like IGN reviews. They seem to be pretty much on my same wavelength when it comes to judging games.
Post by: Shorty McNostril on August 01, 2003, 02:12:47 PM
Post by: Gup on August 01, 2003, 02:15:49 PM
Edit: to Shorty McNostral, if you check at GameRankings.com(they average all of American and European scores), you'll see that Zelda: OoT is the highest rated game so far which is I think an average of 98.2%.
Post by: joeamis on August 01, 2003, 02:35:18 PM
how would you feel if someone said that about your favorite genre of games?
Soul Calibur 2 is probably that good to receive a 10 from some reviewers.
Soul Calibur 1 on dreamcast is regarded as in the top 3 fighting games of all time on consoles, and it was a launch title at that. I'm not a big fighting game fan, but having played the games in the arcade they're top notch. It's funny how Namco's first original fighting game with weapons did not do well, we all remember Weaponlord on Snes right, hehe?
10 does not indicate perfect though, no game can be perfect to the masses, only individuals. (think about it)
Post by: Ian Sane on August 01, 2003, 02:45:19 PM
how would you feel if someone said that about your favorite genre of games?"
Agreed. If you have a bias for or against a certain genre then you aren't really qualified to review that game, unless you make clear that you're reviewing completely from the perspective of someone who doesn't like/really likes that genre. But even then you shouldn't be providing the lone review for a multigenre videogame site. Something like PGC would be okay because one game can have several reviews but that sort of review would be unacceptable on a "one review" site like IGN or Gamespot (eventhough you sometimes see them).
Post by: Gup on August 01, 2003, 03:14:41 PM
The review score depends on the genre. Everybody has his/her own taste in videogames. But most reviewers review and compare a game to their respective genres and not personal opinions like "I'd never give a racing game something over 80%."
P.S. I'm no reviewer, just saying what I feel like saying. I didn't think everybody here were professionals and being scouted by editors!
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 01, 2003, 07:13:56 PM
Exactly- that's one reason my favorite videogame reviews come from Game-Revolution. They use a letter grade system and have stated many times that they will never give out an A+ (perfect score) because they feel no game will ever be perfect. The highest score they'll give is an A and very few games even get that.
Post by: Mario on August 01, 2003, 07:35:53 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 01, 2003, 08:01:25 PM
I also like IGN's rating scale- their 10 out of 10 does not mean the game is perfect, it means the game is the pinnacle of development in that genre and represents, so far, the best efforts. Gamespot's 10 out of 10, however, DOES mean a perfect game, and they've given it out several times, I believe.
Post by: PIAC on August 01, 2003, 08:03:05 PM
Post by: HiTmaN on August 01, 2003, 08:08:10 PM
uhh ya SHAQFU!!
Post by: PIAC on August 01, 2003, 08:34:01 PM
i might even take it out of my vault of unmentionable horrors to attempt to play it one day too... or not
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 01, 2003, 08:51:19 PM
Post by: Mario on August 01, 2003, 08:57:38 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 01, 2003, 09:00:31 PM
Post by: Mario on August 01, 2003, 09:12:24 PM
). It would be great if the Skull kid made an appearance in the next Zelda game i think. And also, Majoras Mask had far better music than Ocarina of Time.
Post by: joeamis on August 01, 2003, 09:14:11 PM
but also they lower the score of ports because they're many years old.
no 1-5 year old port will ever as high as it did when it originally came out unless there are substantial additions.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 01, 2003, 09:16:18 PM
Post by: PIAC on August 01, 2003, 09:43:12 PM
perhaps OoT was a bad example to use, but i feel my point still stands, the stiffer the competition the lower the scores are by average, the n64 days had big titles few and far between compared to these days.
Post by: Mario on August 01, 2003, 09:45:32 PM
Post by: Zelda on August 01, 2003, 10:58:59 PM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on August 02, 2003, 04:49:56 AM
and the next game I see achieving similar greatness is Too Human (but that ofcourse is based on nothing but my hype)
Post by: Internet Nomad on August 02, 2003, 06:15:21 AM
Everyone's calmed down this generation, so you don't see too many 10s floating around where 100, or even 20 point scales are put to use. The 10s are still there on the 10-point scales, but that really just means 9.5+. There's still a ton of those games coming out, right?
Post by: Grey Ninja on August 02, 2003, 06:34:52 AM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on August 02, 2003, 07:04:34 AM
I really think a 10 means that theres a game thats unbelievable fun, and has no flaws, ie nothing really wrong about it.
So thats the case with Zelda OOT, its hard or IMO almost impossible to find something wrong with it (if you look past the fact that its 5 years old). Its unbelievably fun, captivating, has beautiful graphics, revolutionary gameplay and control and practically no mistakes.
Is it perfect? NO, but almost perfect, and revolutionary.
To make my point more clear, take this example. IGN gave Metroid Prime 9.8/10 which is an excellent score. However, Metroid Prime still had minor flaws or things that could have been better, thus, barely missed the perfect grade.
If in school you get a perfect grade it doesnt mean that your work was perfect, but achieved requirements.
So a perfect game really would have to be the most fun ever(like more than sex), and everlasting (by that I mean neverending).
Post by: Gup on August 02, 2003, 07:07:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Hemmorrhoid
If in school you get a perfect grade it doesnt mean that your work was perfect, but achieved requirements.
I don't know about that. I say perfect IS perfect.
Post by: Grey Ninja on August 02, 2003, 07:26:02 AM
I think that my work was simply a cut above the rest, and deserving of a perfect grade.
Post by: KrazyJ1098 on August 02, 2003, 10:56:44 AM
Metroid Prime. hands down the best game out there. halo comes very close though.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 02, 2003, 11:08:43 AM
Post by: ruby_onix on August 02, 2003, 12:55:36 PM
Think about how many degrees there are to rank it with (if you don't get into the decimals). A rank of 5/10 is supposed to be "adequate" (or whatever word you prefer). A 0/10 is supposed to be completely worthless (although I don't know if anyone has ever bothered to make one of these yet).
So there are only about 5 levels of quality. Ranking something as one of the top 10% of all games ever made isn't uncommon. You could even rank a game into the top 20% of good games you could could think are "possible" without too much trouble.
The next thing people usually do to make it more accurate is split up the rankings for the graphics and sound and "fun" and all that, and average them out.
So if your game is top 10% in fun, and top 10% in graphics, and top 10% in sound, then it doesn't have to be "perfect", just really good all the way through.
But the thing is, once you score that 10, people look at it as a "perfect 10", because the number itself is perfect.
People need to look more at the games and less at the numbers. A perfect 10 doesn't mean it's the most fun you'll have in a game, just that it's a "top-notch" game, and more than that, the guys who made it spared no expense in trying to get every aspect of it just right.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 02, 2003, 01:09:17 PM
I think the thing about it is that there's nothing wrong with giving out a "10" to something. It doesn't mean the game is "perfect".
That all depends, though. Giving a game a 10/10 because you believe it IS perfect is stupid because perfection is impossible to attain. Giving a game a 10/10 because you believe it's the pinnacle of entertainment, then that's good. A 10/10 in game reviews can mean perfect or top in it's class depending on who reviews it. Like I said, Gamespot's 10/10 literally means the reviewer thinks the game is perfect and cannot be improved in any way. IGN's 10/10, thought, means that the review believes the game in question represents the furthest advancement in that field.
Post by: Bill Aurion on August 02, 2003, 01:33:16 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 02, 2003, 01:44:16 PM
Post by: Ryujin on August 02, 2003, 02:00:04 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on August 02, 2003, 02:40:47 PM
Quote
A 10/10 in game reviews can mean perfect or top in it's class depending on who reviews it.
I like it better with a "10" meaning it's in the top 20% of anything that can be considered "good".
Then you do that to the different aspects of the game (sound, controls, etc.) and average them out (which is why you get something like 9.8/10, instead of 98/100).
Which would mean that we're seeing more "perfect 10" games these days because everyone's taking the time and effort to make "major productions" out of their games. Games like Castlevania and Megaman used to be the only ones putting out great gameplay, graphics, and great sound, but now everyone knows your won't get away without putting top-notch sound into their games.
No areas are lacking.
Or at least that's how I think of it. I don't really spend much thought trying to figure out what systems reviewers use to rank their games.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 02, 2003, 03:17:09 PM
Quote
I don't think the time limit in MM was innovative, more like annoying... In fact, I never finished MM ( I think I got about 3/4th's through), because the 3 day thing was so annoying... It also felt alot more linear to me... I beat OoT several times, but couldn't even finish MM because it wasn't fun, it was frustrating...
SPOILERS!
I thought the 3 day cycle was very innovative and made a great story, btu I do agree that it made the game very difficult and more often frustrating than enjoyable. I personally used the Backwards Song of Time (basically the Song of Time backwards)- it made time go three times slower so it was like having 9 days to finish a dungeon rather than 3.
Post by: joeamis on August 02, 2003, 04:32:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
But what if you get a 100% on a test? That 100% means you got a perfect score, that you didn't miss a single question. A 100% in a class is different because you have to factor in things like extra credit, rounding up, grading curves, and the way some teacher's grade.
yes but when people review games they don't review them like a test is reviewed.
(they don't look at the graphics and say: "is this using all the graphical features of the hardware? is it using bump mapping? it's not! take off 5 points. is it using trilinear mip mapping? yes? ok, give it the 5 points for this area of our test.", etc etc)
they review them like a paper is reviewed...
("they do look at the graphics and say: well they did do a good job here with the graphics, i like the lighting used. Sure they could've had more animation for this character, but it is still well done. let's give it a 8 out of 10 for this area."
furthering my point, you stated:
A 100% in a class is different because you have to factor in things like extra credit, rounding up, grading curves, and the way some teacher's grade.
when it comes to videogames,
extra credit= extra game modes, features.
rounding up= this area of the game isn't great, but this other aspect more than makes up for it so let's give it a higher score.
grading curves= compared to the sound in the games so far, this one does car engine sounds best so let's raise it's score for sound.
way some teachers grade= different review sites/mags
as far as gamespot's reviews of 10= a perfect game. well, yes it is true that a very small # of review sites/mags do believe 10= perfect. However, it is still THEIR OPINION which brings me to what I stated earlier in this thread:
no game can be perfect to the masses, only individuals. (think about it)
Post by: fishbonefred on August 02, 2003, 07:00:30 PM
Post by: joeamis on August 02, 2003, 09:17:55 PM
for instance the following games were perfect in my eyes but probably were not perfect to others:
(only games that i have beat our allowed on this list, you will notice no current generation games are on this list because I have not beaten them... i know i should've beaten my new games but i haven't had enough time to play them all to completion)
game/platform
chrono trigger snes
super mario brothers 1-3 (at the time of release...i highly stress at the time) nes
final fantasy tactics psone
final fantasy 7 psone
stunt race fx snes
super metroid snes
tecmo super bowl (nes version) nes
goldeneye n64
double dragon arcade arcade
starfox snes
super mario kart snes
Metal Gear (nes version) nes
Metal Gear Solid 1 psone
Excitebike 64 n64
Contra 3 snes
zelda 1 and 2 nes
im sure i forgot atleast 5 games... maybe 10, oh well
Post by: Nephilim on August 03, 2003, 04:06:16 AM
maybe you should read the dojo review fully before complaining.
I havnt seen a 10/10 nintendo game in a magazine since perfect dark,so I dunno what ur talking about
Post by: Grey Ninja on August 03, 2003, 05:29:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
But what if you get a 100% on a test? That 100% means you got a perfect score, that you didn't miss a single question. A 100% in a class is different because you have to factor in things like extra credit, rounding up, grading curves, and the way some teacher's grade.
In a math test, that would be very true. However, I remember having to write a lot of short stories/essays in my English classes. Really, that's what games are. They aren't math papers, they are works of art along the lines of a novel.
If you get 100% on an English paper, does that mean that you did everything "perfectly"?
Post by: joeamis on August 03, 2003, 12:45:46 PM
i remember metroid fusion getting a perfect 10 in game informer not long ago
as well as windwaker and gta vice city with 10's too
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 03, 2003, 01:04:01 PM
It depends on the teacher.
Some teachers will only give you the coveted 100% if they believe you DID do everything perfectly while other teachers will give you a 100% if they feel you were in the top of the class. It all depends on where the perfect score is coming from as to whether it not it actually means "perfect".
Post by: Grey Ninja on August 03, 2003, 02:36:40 PM
"The best optimization is to do nothing. Therefore a fully optimized program does not exist."
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 03, 2003, 02:48:04 PM
And I agree that perfection does not exist, but other people don't see it that way and will try to say things ARE perfect, when in reality that's impossible.
Post by: joeamis on August 03, 2003, 04:12:21 PM
do you know where i can find out more about this MASSIVE program?
Post by: Bill Aurion on August 03, 2003, 04:24:54 PM
http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1036373442
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 03, 2003, 04:25:15 PM
Post by: joeamis on August 03, 2003, 07:00:04 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on August 03, 2003, 10:04:57 PM
I just find that really funny since Gamespot gave the PS2 version of Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 a 10 meaning they thought it was perfect. I mean that's a good game but compared to some of their other perfect 10 titles like Ocarina of Time and Soul Calibur that review score looks a little high.
In regards to ports I find that there's often a problem with how to review the game. Do you review it for people who have played it before or for newcomers? Ocarina of Time for the Gamecube is not as much of a must-own title for people who've played it before as the N64 version was back when no one had ever played it. Yet as a title alone it's something that everyone must play regardless of which version. One thing that would be a good idea for ports would be to give two scores: one for those who've played it before and one for those who haven't.
Post by: KDR_11k on August 04, 2003, 01:06:30 AM
Post by: PIAC on August 04, 2003, 01:26:48 AM
reveiws for me are usefull to findout the features of the game, not how good it is overall, i determine that for my self.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 04, 2003, 11:04:26 AM
