Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on January 27, 2016, 08:03:23 PM
Title: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on January 27, 2016, 08:03:23 PM
If we don't count the Virtual Boy does anyone thing that Wii U is actually Nintendo's worst console ever made? I remember back when GameCube was out I thought it was a contender for their best console ever, even beating out the beloved NES. I still think I would rank the Super NES as their greatest console but now I am torn about Wii U.
I think as a concept I like the Wii U and wish they could have done more with it. I also think that it does have quite a few really fun games. One of the biggest problems is most of the games are typical Nintendo but it seems like the games that were released are shining examples of their respective franchises. Also for the first time getting a Zelda game that focuses on action that isn't just some strange, pointless minigame being used to sell a useless piece of plastic was also very nice. (The fact they pulled that bullshit on us two generations in a row should have had people skeptical of Hyrule Warriors right up front) Oh wait I forgot about Amiibo... damn so close.
Well the games are fun anyways, even if they are short and lately do rely on shoving useless plastic accessories down our throats. (after reading about what has been deleted from Fire Emblem there are worse things they could be trying to cram down our throats.)
But does it really deserve to be hated as the worst Nintendo home console of all time? I know when Game Cube was knew there were people who felt it was premature to lump it in the running for greatest, to me I still think it beats even N64, but I never even considered if Wii would be one of the greatest or one of the worst, I think for me it is a tie between Wii and n64, they both fall short on potential but they have a few amazing gems that really stand out. With Wii U sure it gets compared to N64 a lot but I think it also should be compared to Game Cube too, it did try new things, it did try to improve upon the mistakes of the previous generation (something Wii didn't even bother acknowledging) and now it has giving us probably the greatest 3D Mario game ever, the best Mario Spin-off featuring a non-Mario game ever (Captain Toad), one of the greatest, if not the greatest Zelda Spin off ever, and one of the best DKC games since the original. Not to mention Super Mario Maker, Splatoon, and oh yeah those cool NES Remix games and good old Dr. Luigi.
I know it still has some life left in it, it's in a coma but Zelda could wake it up. If not for Virtual Console I would drop Wii just below N64 but that alone has it tied. N64 sticks around because Super Mario 64 is probably one of the top 20 greatest video games of all time. And now only the second best 3D Mario game ever.
If they do release a pretty good Paper Mario then Wii U could rise into a real contender, but should it be considered the worst console? I think it beats Wii but just barely (and mostly because frankly it is a Wii)
What does the rest of the Nintendo fans in the world think?
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on January 27, 2016, 08:16:20 PM
Personally, in terms of software library it might actually be my favorite console of theirs. If Star Fox Zero turns out well and it had a good proper Metroid game I think it definitely would be.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Soren on January 27, 2016, 08:33:23 PM
No.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Adrock on January 27, 2016, 09:01:20 PM
I was tempted to just quote Soren, but I'm the interest of discussion:
Wii U has some of Nintendo's best and most polished games. It's only really missing a Metroid game.
Worst, for me, would probably be NES because so few of those games are playable to me today. I appreciate its place in history, but having never owned an NES, I view it without rose-colored glasses. While I loved Nintendo 64 at the time, most of those games have aged poorly when replaying on an actual Nintendo 64. It has a great collection of games, but I either buy enhanced ports (e.g. Ocarina of Time 3D, Majora's Mask 3D) or hope Nintendo releases better versions of those games. The graphics don't have the same old school charm as the 8-bit and 16-bit eras. More importantly, the frame rate is atrocious. Mario Kart 64 is particularly bad in this regard. The games themselves aren't bad, but there's generally a better version of each major first party games on subsequent Nintendo consoles.
I think there's an old thread where we all ranked Nintendo's consoles and handhelds. Let me see if I can find my post.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: ejamer on January 27, 2016, 09:09:27 PM
My views about which consoles are best/worst seem to be very different from yours.
I like my Wii U console and am glad to own it. Despite that, and despite having a few truly outstanding gems released on the console, it is easily one of the least impressive consoles that Nintendo has released. So while our views differ in many ways, we do seem to agree there.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: nickmitch on January 27, 2016, 11:06:19 PM
It's a console that will never live up to the potential of the ideas that created it. It's not a complete failure. It has some really good games on it. "Worst" is kinda harsh.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Evan_B on January 28, 2016, 01:55:05 AM
As much as I was ready to get all up in arms about the subject field of this thread, I'll just say this about the Wii U. In the end, I don't think it will be looked upon with great favor. But it is the console that has my favorite Donkey Kong, one of my favorite 3D Marios, two of the most interesting Japanese RPGs I have ever seen (having only played one, I can't comment fully on their quality, but I am certain the other will receive heaps of praise from me), a damn good Pikmin Game (maybe two?), a few of the best independent games I've ever played, two games that I helped create, and new ideas from Nintendo that are fresh and interesting. If Zelda and Paper Mario for Wii U end up being anywhere near as good as I hope they will be, the console will rank quite high in terms of Nintendo consoles.
The quality of these games is quite high, and I have yet to walk away from a Nintendo game on Wii U feeling that it wasn't a polished and well-realized piece of work. That doesn't mean I've loved every game but I at least think the majority have had high quality- with a few rough spots, here and there. I only get to play a certain amount of games a year, and I have accepted and enjoyed that the majority of them will be Nintendo titles. I have no problem with this fact. So if you ask me if I think Nintendo has put out some good games on Wii U, I will answer "YES." Are the all great? No, but I'm not stupid enough to buy an Animal Crossing board game or Mario Party 10. The system has a number of functions I enjoy using, it has satisfied many cravings that I have needed to satiate- and with the realization that we might actually get a decent Paper Mario title on this thing before it takes its last gasps of breath, I realize that the Wii U has been worth the time. It's certainly sucked, but no more or less than the worst of droughts on Wii or GCN.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on January 28, 2016, 02:00:48 AM
In the end, I don't think it will be looked upon with great favor.
Not to pick out one phrase too much, but I disagree with you here. I have a feeling the Wii U will be remembered by history better than it is now. It fits the mold of the Dreamcast and the GameCube, a sales flop with a relatively small crop of high quality exclusives that people will revere 10 years from now.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on January 28, 2016, 04:11:19 AM
The difference being those two consoles had far better 3rd party support than Wii U ever did.
Personally I don't think it is the worst console and when it is all said and done I think I will rank it slightly above Wii and maybe tied or even higher than N64.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Adrock on January 28, 2016, 06:03:20 AM
Overall: SNES, DS(i), GameCube, 3DS, N64, Wii, Gameboy Advance, Wii U, Gameboy/Color, NES. I suppose Virtual Boy is automatically last for obvious reasons.
[Note: I removed the extraneous bits]
This is where I was almost two years ago. I move Wii U up to third, behind GameCube. Some of its best games released since then. I'll probably go back and forth between N64 and Wii depending on the day. I recently looked through my old games in storage and seeing all my Wii games together, I remembered how much fun I had with it. I'm trying to remember why I ranked DS(i) so high. I ranked it above GameCube? That doesn't sound right. The only one that seems untouchable is Super Nintendo. The rest appear to shift based on my personal whims of the moment. I suppose I just don't feel as strongly about them.
Here's my 2016 ranking:
Console - Super Nintendo, GameCube, Wii U, Wii, Nintendo 64, Nintendo Entertainment System
Overall - Super Nintendo, GameCube, 3DS, Wii U, DS(i), Nintendo 64, Gameboy Advance, Gameboy/Color, Nintendo Entertainment System, Virtual Boy
I can see Wii U potentially supplanting GameCube depending on how everything plays out with the rumored Paper Mario and Zelda Wii U. I still haven't played Xenoblade Chronicles X.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Evan_B on January 28, 2016, 10:17:36 AM
Among Nintendo fans, I could maybe see it looking favorable. Unless we all turn into Ian Sanes eventually.
But I also think that, while the Wii U currently has a decent library (especially in comparison with othe Nintendo consoles), but it also has a library that contrasts very little with the handheld released alongside it, with extremely iterative installments and even ports from one space to the next. That's a factor of HD development and resources spread thin, but as a generation, the Wii U/3DS feels weaker because of all the shared content.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on January 28, 2016, 11:36:18 AM
Evan, I think I fully agree with your on the library part. I think one of the reasons I rank Game Cube so high and remember it so favorably is because between GBA-GC connectivity, e-Reader, and GameBoy Player, it had the most diverse and interesting software library. Sure most of the GBA titles were just ports or remakes of SNES games or derived from SNES games, but with so many people ranking the SNES in the top spot, not just among Nintendo consoles but overall too, I think there is a lot to be said of having those SNES-type games. I think that is why Wii and to some extend Wii U were so lacking, Nintendo is stuck on the NES-days and all their nostalgia is reserved trying to recreate those years, they forget that despite the battle with Sega, which in the end they pretty much won, they had some of their best, most memorable games ever released for that machine.
I think that is why people like Ian, no offense buddy but you are the most vocal it seems, hold onto the SNES era so fondly whereas maybe those years aren't as favorable for Nintendo because of Sega, Atari, Sony, Neo Geo, etc. I don't know why I fell in love with Game Cube maybe it was right place, right time, or maybe it was just it hit all the right notes following the major disappointment of N64 that forced me to also get a Playstation.
I think that is why Wii U e-shop doesn't do much for me, sure there are real SNES games on Virtual Console but none of the 2d made for e-shop games have that Super NES 16-bit magic they are all trying desperately to recreate the archaic, dark days of the 8-bit NES era. I think that is where Playstation is stronger, they are better at embracing change but also know what parts of their line up is nostalgic for their audience, hence why they embrace the old PS1 era as it was the closest to what we got with SNES and why I think some of the PSN digital games try harder to recreate that era. I think they both play on emotions really well it's just for me, NES takes me to my toddler years, SNES takes me to my fun years, PS1 takes me to the years my hormones were trying to tell me to stop playing video games and with GameCube I was finally an adult who could just appreciate games as what they were.
Maybe that is what matters, age more than anything? Seems like younger people prefer newer consoles or the one they played when they were the age I was when SNES was big. Maybe it is just something about those years.
As far as actual library goes, I love Super Mario 3D World and DKC Tropical Freeze maybe because they do sort of remind me of the 16 bit era more than recent offerings? I guess getting back to the whole Wii U 3DS being redundant but GC and GBA being complimentary seems to me it has to do with the games on GBA actually adding something to the GC library where with 3DS and Wii U you aren't getting anything really better or different just a bigger screen and better joysticks I suppose?
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Ian Sane on January 28, 2016, 02:04:09 PM
Something HAS to be Nintendo's worst console so I think a lot of you are being very defensive. The topic isn't "worst console of all time", it's "worst Nintendo console". If you don't think the Wii U is, which one do you think is the worst? You could like all of them and just have one that is the least good. Unless it's a tie between all of them one of them has to be the worst one.
I don't really think of Virtual Boy as a console and I've never played it so I can't get an informed opinion of it. I would rank the Wii U near the bottom since it has essentially no third party support at all, lots of the games have 3DS equivalents, and it has some real clunkers with Mario Tennis and that Animal Crossing Amiibo nonsense where it doesn't even seem like Nintendo made those games in good faith to begin with.
But in general the first party titles are pretty great and due to the console's poor sales I imagine the console will attract attention when it becomes retro. It has a small library but some really great exclusives. One thing that might hurt it is that retro gaming is going to be a lot more difficult by the time it becomes old as patches and Amiibos and DLC will make much of the content unavailable in the used market. Splatoon for example has had a lot of its content added digitally after the fact. In the future when you can only find the disc you won't get to experience the "full" game unless Nintendo has re-released it. Something from a purely physical medium era like the Dreamcast doesn't have that problem.
Nintendo's worst console to me is the Wii. It will probably be a poorly regarded console over time as it has a lot of the bad trademarks of a fad. It has lots and lots of shovelware, probably the worst for any console thus released. The third party support was really weak despite the console's success. Well there were a lot of stuff but most of it was cash-in trash to grab the casual buck while the "real" games were on the other consoles. But where the Wii U really beats it is that Wii U first party games don't tend to have broken gimmick controls forced into them. There's the joke of Nintendo putting all their eggs in this Gamepad basket and not using it, but the games do play better when they don't have controls that don't fit shoehorned in. The Wii is full of games that are ALMOST great but have annoying waggle controls and no alternative to use something conventional. I haven't run into that problem on the Wii U. In the future early waggle-style motion controls are not going to have the novelty appeal that they had at the time so a lot of those Wii games are just going to come across as controlling like ****. Twilight Princess is getting re-released and is anyone calling for the waggle to be in it? No, because the novelty is over and we just want to play the game in a way that's responsive and easy-to-use.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Adrock on January 28, 2016, 02:30:20 PM
Twilight Princess is getting re-released and is anyone calling for the waggle to be in it? No, because the novelty is over and we just want to play the game in a way that's responsive and easy-to-use.
I'd happily take Wii Remote support. The Wii version is the better version of that game. I have Twilight Princess on both Wii and GameCube. I'd probably agree with you with most other games. However, Twilight Princess is one of the few I'd say was better with motion controls if only for aiming. Otherwise, it's a wash control-wise. I've heard Pikmin is better with motion controls, but I can't really say from personal experience.
With Twilight Princess HD, I hope Nintendo includes a motion control option though I doubt it will. Oh well.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Triforce Hermit on January 28, 2016, 03:14:24 PM
I hate the Wii. I love my Wii U. There is my answer.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Shaymin on January 28, 2016, 08:43:32 PM
Something HAS to be Nintendo's worst console so I think a lot of you are being very defensive.
Gamecube. /thread
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on January 28, 2016, 09:55:18 PM
Super Nintendo, obviously. I mean, Super Metroid's great, but one fantastic game can't make up for the rest of the dreck on the system.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: pokepal148 on January 28, 2016, 11:32:46 PM
N64. The first big 3d system, don't be surprised that many of the game's there have aged like ****.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: broodwars on January 28, 2016, 11:51:10 PM
The NES. It has a huge nostalgia factor, and I certainly loved mine back in the day. However, looking back on it now, 99.9% of that console's library was total garbage, with maybe 1-2 dozen quality titles in there that established franchises we still see today. Even the ones that weren't terrible simply haven't aged well. The NES was also a really shoddily-manufactured device, with the cartridge slot responsible for gradually destroying the very games it played...when they worked at all (i.e. the voodoo rituals we all performed to try to make games load on the thing). As much as I disliked the Wii, there are far more titles from that console I'd go back and play today than anything on the SNES.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: ejamer on January 29, 2016, 01:00:56 AM
Twilight Princess is getting re-released and is anyone calling for the waggle to be in it? No, because the novelty is over and we just want to play the game in a way that's responsive and easy-to-use.
I'd happily take Wii Remote support. The Wii version is the better version of that game. I have Twilight Princess on both Wii and GameCube. I'd probably agree with you with most other games. However, Twilight Princess is one of the few I'd say was better with motion controls if only for aiming. Otherwise, it's a wash control-wise. I've heard Pikmin is better with motion controls, but I can't really say from personal experience.
With Twilight Princess HD, I hope Nintendo includes a motion control option though I doubt it will. Oh well.
Interesting side-discussion about Wii and how controls will be viewed.
Waggle was (and still is) absolutely horrible, but the ability to use a pointer with games was fantastic in many cases. Twilight Princess is an interesting example of both the best and worst aspects of Wii controls in one package - sword and shield play were weak, but pointer controls were responsive and accurate and really helped empower the player when using some weapons.
I think that Wii will be remembered favorably by many. There are more good games on the console than many people give it credit for, and the Wii will also have been the first exposure to video games for a large group of people. It's also going to benefit from relying less on online patching and connectivity compared to it's contemporaries. There will always be a group who dismisses the console - but I suspect they will be vocal dissenters instead of part of the majority.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on January 29, 2016, 12:45:42 PM
Well I look back at the NES I despise the controller, same can be said for N64 I hated that thing too. So I am not 100 percent sure people will give the Wii a free pass either. I admit, at first motion controls were amazing I was hooked on Wii Sports, but then when it started popping into games where they didn't belong I started to lose interest and by the time I got Wii Play I was already over motion controls. Wii would have been a lot better if the classic controller had been mandatory and bundled either with the main console, or some "classic" bundle that gave you 2000 Wii points or pre-loaded VC titles, and, or, bundled with a game or two to get it out there and then having the option to use traditional controls would have made all the difference. Forcing motion and nunchuck was a mistake, even with a Nunchuck you get an analog stick tacked onto a really bad NES knock off. Actual NES knock-offs are usually better than the cheap Classic controller.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Ian Sane on January 29, 2016, 01:35:02 PM
I find I go back and play NES and SNES games more simply because the style of 2D games requires less of a commitment from the player. There are lots of games that you can complete in one sitting. Once games went 3D they became much longer. I don't go back and play Gamecube games, for example, very often because many of my favourites weren't pick up and play games. They're not something to just kill a few hours with. They require potentially weeks of play. That kind of dedication is going to be put towards new games.
N64 holds up the worst to me. Those early 3D graphics are rough.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Mop it up on January 29, 2016, 03:15:31 PM
Yes.
Keep in mind, "worst" is a relative term, so it doesn't mean the system is completely terrible. It still has a handful of good games on the system, although I questioned whether it was worth it for me to own the system until 2015's triple threat of Splatoon, Super Mario Maker, and Xenoblade X. Not to say there isn't other good stuff on the system I enjoyed, but those were the first three greats that solidified my purchase.
That said, I feel some of Nintendo's series entries on it are not as good as some of the previous games; Nintendo have released less games on it than they did the Wii; Super Mario Maker is the one and only game that feels like the GamePad makes it better; I don't like the GamePad as a controller, mostly because of how extremely uncomfortable that monstrosity is; practically zero third-party support; missing some good features from previous systems; etc.
The system has a huge list of issues and it's easy for me to see why it isn't selling well. I can't argue it should be performing better and I find most of the criticism/hate it gets to be fair. I hope Nintendo do a better job with their next system.
Now, this is if I compare systems as they were "during their time." If we're talking about what my list of current fave systems would look like? NES would be my least fave right now. I enjoyed it during its time when I was a kid, but today? Time has not been kind to most of its games, and I don't really like playing the system anymore. I'll always appreciate how the NES shaped gaming, but I'd definitely rather play Wii U games than NES games.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: pokepal148 on January 29, 2016, 04:33:13 PM
Wii U: Worse then the CDI confirmed.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on January 30, 2016, 03:17:46 PM
It ranks higher than N64 and probably tied with Wii and slightly below GameCube. However if Zelda U and Starfox are closer to their pedigree than previous installments it may very well shoot to 2nd below Super Nintendo. The gaming selection while small is some of their best output ever.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on February 01, 2016, 09:32:46 AM
I think, regardless of where Zelda U and Star Fox land on the quality scale, Wii U is easily better than Wii at this moment and yes tied with N64 but close to knocking it off. N64 has a couple advantages, one slightly stronger 3rd party support gave it some favorites of mine like Shadows of the Empire, Mortal Kombat Trilogy (although I had it on PS1 also), MK4, and it had a pair of really neat Bomberman games and a Tetris, all things Wii U is currently lacking. If they could get MKT and MK4 VC N64 and an original Bomberman that makes use of the tablet and a decent Tetris it would surpass N64 easily. Without those things no matter how good Zelda U is it will be tough to beat Ocarina of Time, original Mario Party (man I had so much fun with that game I am still confused/pissed it's not on VC when the crappier 2 is) and and Super Mario 64. It could also use a good Rogue Squadron type game, or any Star Wars games for that matter, but it is what it is.
As far as controllers go, I rank the tablet higher than anything on Wii even the Pro, higher than N64, higher than NES, tied with SNES (only because the tablet's buttons are too spread out it hurts my hands playing, opposite problem as NES being too small) but beneath Game Cube (including GBA connectivity and Wave Bird)
As far as extra features, I rank Wii the best, despite the lacking game library and the sloppy last-gen with waggle tacked on ports, the Wii had the most fun non-gaming apps when it was at it's height, sure Mii stuff got old after a while but damn those early days of Mii share or whatever it was called, that polling app, the Opera browser, the Mii TV or whatever it was called, the Nintendo channel, all those early channels/apps were actually worth owning a Wii for. They weren't good replacements for games and when the library started to feel thin they started to lose their charm but for a good year at least the channels/apps was where it was at, I will give the Wii that much.
Wii U didn't even try with apps, it was almost like they put everything into Miiverse and figured to hell with it good enough, even the Netflix app was better on Wii for the first few years into Wii U's life. In fact the only thing I don't like about Wii U b/c is that the Wii Apps either don't exist or don't work in it or anymore at all.
As far as design, Wii U is ugly, but not as ugly as N64. NES was different for the time, SNES looked like a toy, Game Cube was cool looking but it had a bad, but undeserved, reputation of being a lunchbox, and Wii looks only slightly better than Wii U only because it looks right, Wii U looks stretched and warped for what it is. Like they just let the Wii eat too many bacon wrapped bacon sandwiches dipped in bacon grease for a couple of months and then threw it out to market.
But as far as original games go, Wii U sucks, it has what, one game that can be considered original? It is great but that is it, one original game. Everything else is just a new spin on an old idea, Dr. Luigi, sure fun but it's just a new skin to Dr. Mario, NES Remix, sure fun but it's just the same old NES games I already own on dozens of platforms, Super Mario Maker, sure it's fun but its not new, or original.
The best thing I can say for Mario is the catsuit was so fun it better make a return, and Super Mario 3D World is still my favorite 3D Mario, and I recently went back and tried all previous entries except Sunshine because I don't have a Game Cube, and it still has me having more fun than I do with those. But Super Mario 64 is still very close in the fun factor even as ugly and outdated as it is, which is why that is the one HD remaster I want the most. Yes I do want original games too but the old games aren't going anywhere and revamping them, giving them a facelift, tweaking them, etc, how hard can those things be?
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Mop it up on February 01, 2016, 03:57:56 PM
I think that Wii will be remembered favorably by many. There are more good games on the console than many people give it credit for, and the Wii will also have been the first exposure to video games for a large group of people.
This year will be the tenth anniversary of the Wii, and I'm already starting to see some fond reminiscing of the system, so I agree that it will still have a good number of people who continue to like it.
The IR pointer was definitely the best thing introduced with the Wii, and it's sad to see it get lumped in with waggle so much. It's a bummer that everything got tossed out instead of keeping what worked with Wii, as I still feel and miss the absence of the pointer in most games. Gyro is not and likely never will be a good replacement.
Splatoon for example has had a lot of its content added digitally after the fact. In the future when you can only find the disc you won't get to experience the "full" game unless Nintendo has re-released it.
Splatoon's added content is all for the online multiplayer mode, so once the servers shut down you won't be able to play online anyway. Not that this changes your point, but Splatoon does not fit your example.
Nintendo's worst console to me is the Wii. It has lots and lots of shovelware, probably the worst for any console thus released.
The PS1 and especially PS2 have way, way more shovelware than the Wii. Even the DS probably has more. The problem is that the Wii received practically none of the high-profile third-party games that were releasing on other systems, so the presence of shovelware was much more noticeable even though there was less of it.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 01, 2016, 04:02:04 PM
The most popular, best selling console is always the one that gets the most shovelware. The whole point of it is going for the biggest audience.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Ian Sane on February 01, 2016, 05:17:38 PM
Nintendo's worst console to me is the Wii. It has lots and lots of shovelware, probably the worst for any console thus released.
The PS1 and especially PS2 have way, way more shovelware than the Wii. Even the DS probably has more. The problem is that the Wii received practically none of the high-profile third-party games that were releasing on other systems, so the presence of shovelware was much more noticeable even though there was less of it.
Shovelware rate or percentage is probably the highest though because of that problem where the good third party games were largely absent. Third parties were intentionally making Wii-specific content that revolved around half-assed motion controls. There is no console in history to have the weird combination of selling better than the others but having the worst third party support. Third parties truly bought into the "casual console" stereotype and based their development around it.
Regarding the IR pointer, why have we not had a console mouse since the SNES? Clearly PC games have routinely used a mouse since GUI became a thing so there are tons of genres that really demonstrate it to be a prominent controller option. I'm not even talking about FPS but point-and-click adventures and RTS games and sims and stuff like that. I guess in theory you could do similar things with touchscreens but we haven't really seen that (and without multi-touch the feature is much less functional then a mouse proper which can have different button clicks).
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 01, 2016, 05:37:40 PM
The Dreamcast had a mouse. The Dreamcast had all kinds of crazy **** like that. Also, some console games have supported USB mice, since those ports are standard across all consoles now, though it's not that common. It's just not that conducive to the living room style of gaming; even now that they can be wireless, you still need a surface to use it on, which isn't always available in that setting.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Mop it up on February 01, 2016, 06:12:11 PM
It's just not that conducive to the living room style of gaming; even now that they can be wireless, you still need a surface to use it on, which isn't always available in that setting.
This is one reason why I find the IR pointer to be better than a mouse.
Shovelware rate or percentage is probably the highest though because of that problem where the good third party games were largely absent.
Looking at the number of games released and Metacritic scores, this does not appear to be true either. But these are your claims, so the burden of proof is on you, not me.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Ian Sane on February 01, 2016, 06:58:44 PM
Shovelware rate or percentage is probably the highest though because of that problem where the good third party games were largely absent.
Looking at the number of games released and Metacritic scores, this does not appear to be true either. But these are your claims, so the burden of proof is on you, not me.
If you're going to use something like review scores as proof then it is easy to make my claim. I'll go to GameRankings and look at the top ranked Xbox 360 games and just start listing from the top the third party titles that appeared on the 360 and PS3 and not the Wii. GTA IV, Orange Box, GTA V, Mass Effect 2, Skyrim, BioShock, Red Dead Redemption, Portal 2, Arkham City, Oblivion, Street Fighter IV, Fallout 3... do you want me to keep going? Call of Duty and Rock Band/Guitar Hero are the only ones with Wii versions thus far. I haven't even gotten out of the 90% range yet. Meanwhile I count a mere 3 third party Wii games with 90% average or higher and two of them are RE4 and Okami - ports of games from the prior generation! Is this really a discussion? Third parties either ignored the Wii or used it as a dumping ground for junk.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Mop it up on February 01, 2016, 07:13:47 PM
No, this is not a discussion, because you seem to have completely forgotten what you wrote:
Nintendo's worst console to me is the Wii. It has lots and lots of shovelware, probably the worst for any console thus released.
I contested that this is not a true statement. If you'd like to backpedal and now compare the Wii to only the Xbox 360 and PS3, sure, go ahead. But it won't make this statement any less false.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Spak-Spang on February 01, 2016, 09:22:45 PM
By what definition do we use to define worse? You see this is important, because it is really a personal question.
For instance, someone might really love Sports games so the system with the least number of good sports games is the worst. Another person may be a modern gamer and thus hates 2D games and doesn't care to look at legacy and to them the NES may be the worst system.
For me personally, I look at worst and best on one single criteria does the system have the games I want to play on it. Period. So for that definition whether I like the Wii or not, it can't be the worst system. The Virtual Console alone provides me with more than enough games I actually want to play to be considered a great system.
However, the Wii U doesn't offer the same value proposition and when you take the system as a whole compared to all the other Nintendo systems it appears to have the least value when it comes to games and therefore would be the worst system.
That said, Nintendo has also released some classic and arguably best games of classic series on the Wii U. This makes it difficult to rank the system as a failure. The system does have significant value worth owning for any Nintendo fan.
The end of the day I think I would rank the top 3 Nintendo systems in no particular order as the SNES, Nintendo 64, and Wii. And the 3 Worst Nintendo systems are the Gamecube, Wii U, and NES.
This is of course a personal opinion as I said before based on what I believe each system has to offer and what games I can enjoy on them.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Evan_B on February 01, 2016, 10:18:39 PM
I find it hard to say certain Nintendo consoles are more or less good than one another- although the Game Boy Advance has a lot going against it, with it's ridiculous peripherals and high number of ports. When I try to approach the argument, it usually goes like this:
NES: Well, it started so many franchises and pushed for a certain level of quality, but many of its titles are almost unplayable today. SNES: Well, they did release some of the great "classics" on this system. The only real flaw I can see here is how they failed to respond to their competition. N64: Well, it was a crucial and successful time for Nintendo to transition into 3D, but the system lacks third party support and the controller is pretty bad. Game Cube: Well, they had an image problem, but the games were polished versions of their N64 counterpart and the controller was awesome. Wii: Had really interesting ideas and (some) third parties used the device well, but also became a bit gimmicky and too platformer focused.
Now, with the Wii U, it's hard to judge, at least in comparison with the others. It has my favorite Pikmin title, my favorite Donkey Kong title, one of the better 3D Mario games, one of my favorite survival horror games, and even several third party titles I've really enjoyed. It has its fair share of flaws, sure, but I would put it on par with the Game Cube and even the N64.
In regards to the post above mine, I'd rank the consoles as SNES>GCN>Wii>Wii U>N64>NES
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on February 02, 2016, 03:35:17 PM
See, I loved that the GBA had all those ports, it was like a portable SNES but with more power. It didn't have much in the way of original games, but it did have some of the best entries in certain franchises like the Sonic Advance games were all pretty cool, there was a unique Mortal Kombat to the system and some great Dragon Ball Z and Mega Man games, and that Mario Kart and Metroid were both fantastic games too.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Mop it up on February 02, 2016, 05:22:09 PM
If we're ranking systems then I might as well throw in mine too, though I'm too lazy to go check the ranking topic that Adrock referred to with his rankings. I'm pretty sure this is what I said though:
During their time: N64, Wii, SNES, GCN, NES, Wii U Current fave listing: Wii, N64, SNES, GCN, Wii U, NES
Judging from the opening post, it seems to be factoring in mostly the game library, but also a few other things such as the GamePad. It also seems to be a question stemming from the system's low sales, so I also get a hint of wondering if it truly deserves its low popularity.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Spak-Spang on February 02, 2016, 05:25:05 PM
I thought the GBA was one of Nintendos finest systems.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Ian Sane on February 02, 2016, 08:03:14 PM
Nintendo's worst console to me is the Wii. It has lots and lots of shovelware, probably the worst for any console thus released.
I contested that this is not a true statement. If you'd like to backpedal and now compare the Wii to only the Xbox 360 and PS3, sure, go ahead. But it won't make this statement any less false.
I would consider shovelware to be games where there is no legitimate effort to make something truly great. It's sheer product, designed to take advantage of the target audience. Think of games based on licensed properties for example where the whole plan is to get sales off of the IP and the publisher doesn't even care if the game is good or not. Or another example are half-assed ports with obvious missing features. The intention is to get people to buy the inferior product based on the name value of the superior source material. Think of Mass Effect 3 on the Wii U. Great game but since the port was missing the very important feature to import your character from the prior games the release was in bad faith. EA didn't care that the game was essentially incomplete, they just hoped Wii U owners would buy it because they heard that the game was good.
On the Wii the vast majority of the third party releases were created with this shovelware mentality in mind. They couldn't just port over the "real" game so they stuck the same IP into some derivative product, had the C-team work on it and threw in some waggle controls and promoted it as a specifically tailored for the Wii audience. The intentions were merely to get product on the shelf for a console that was selling like hotcakes, usually using IP that had some name value from past generations and/or equivalents on the other consoles. Then we got all the really bad casual fluff hoping to attract the same audience as Wii Sports and Wii Fit, but with 1/10th the polish of those titles.
It's all opinion but I felt a very deliberate effort from third parties to try to exploit the Wii audience with junk because they thought we were all casual suckers that didn't know better. So I see it as a higher shovelware ratio than any other console.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Mop it up on February 02, 2016, 08:10:05 PM
So I see it as a higher shovelware ratio than any other console.
You've now changed your statement again, to be about ratios instead of numbers. But that's fine, as all I was suggesting is to be more clear and accurate. I still don't agree with you, but you've at least changed it to sound closer to an opinion than fact. Good enough, I s'pose.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Evan_B on February 03, 2016, 02:37:02 PM
Yeah, I agree with some of your definition of shovelware but I think a good deal of respectable IP that had a version-specific release on Wii don't fit your bill.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Mop it up on February 03, 2016, 03:18:01 PM
Yeah, I agree with some of your definition of shovelware but I think a good deal of respectable IP that had a version-specific release on Wii don't fit your bill.
I'm pretty sure Ian Sane's definition of shovelware is "Any game I don't like, which is a lot."
While there is certainly a good number of junk games released with questionable intent, I also feel like the system was similar to the likes of NES and N64, in that there was also a lot of experimentation going on to see what worked and what didn't. I think a good number of games were made with this mindset, some of which are good-quality and some could have used more work, but I don't think they were made with malicious intent. Also, I feel there are a decent number of mid-budget games that could not find a home on PS3 or X360 because it would have cost too much; most of these may not be great games, but they're good, and they reminded me of good ol' fashioned games that focused on pure fun even if they couldn't have the best graphics and sound.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Ian Sane on February 03, 2016, 04:51:02 PM
they reminded me of good ol' fashioned games that focused on pure fun even if they couldn't have the best graphics and sound.
I HATE this type of language. "I like FUN games" like as if consoles not made by Nintendo don't have games that are fun. Fun the whole damn point of a videogame! You think these big hits on non-Nintendo consoles are selling to millions of people that DON'T have fun with them? And this "pure gameplay" idea is hogwash. Most games made by Nintendo or otherwise aimed to have impressive graphics and sound for the time. Your favourite N64 games for example only look like **** today but Perfect Dark, Ocarina of Time, Mario 64 - all of those were trying their damn hardest to have impressive graphics and sound. It was a very rare occurrence for a game to seriously compromise graphics quality solely for gameplay, though there have always been lots of games that use graphics to cover up weak gameplay.
Until the Wii every developer made it a priority to make their games look pretty so as to catch the eye of potential customers. This idea of "pure gameplay" games that only focus on gameplay being the old way is revisionist history. Go check out the old Nintendo ads when they were hyping the **** out of the rendered graphics of DKC games. Modern games that appear to focus too much on graphics are not doing anything different than what was being done on the Atari and Intellivision, they just have better graphics hardware to work with and the price of development has gone up.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Mop it up on February 03, 2016, 05:15:37 PM
Funny, but that type of language is all what you are assuming from what I said, and not at all what I was implying. And you know what they say about people who assume...
There are plenty of games on previous systems such as N64, SNES, NES, etc. that do not push the graphical capabilities of those systems to their limits, some not even close, particularly ones not made by Nintendo. They were still fun then, and still fun now. Also, even with games that did try to have the best graphics, I feel they still knew that graphics were in a primitive state, and they still needed to have great and/or creative gameplay to catch some attention. Not like the sequel-filled world of today where most games don't even show gameplay in commercials. Those are all the kind of game I meant. I was certainly not implying that graphically-impressive games can't be fun.
As a value-conscious consumer, I've played a lot of games in retrospect instead of during their time. Most SNES games I played during the N64/PS1 years and beyond, most N64 games I played during the GameCube years and beyond, etc. Whether or not those games had good graphics for the time, they were far below what was standard at the actual time I played them, and I was fine with that. Graphics have never been a priority for me at any point in my life.
One thing about the Wii is that the system and games were priced lower than the competition. You get what you pay for, and all of that. I was happy that there was an alternative to those expensive systems, as to me they were not worth paying more to get better graphics. Would it be nice if Wii had better graphics? Sure, but not if I had to pay more for it. The system did have a shift in priorities, and I am simply saying that I was okay with that, since graphics have never been one of my priorities either.
I suggest that instead of assuming the meaning of something, you ask for clarification if you're not sure. That is, of course, if you actually want to have a discussion instead of finding any excuse to go off on yet another complaining rant. Your call.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: KeyBilly on February 03, 2016, 05:26:42 PM
I'll throw in my own, completely personal, ranking:
SNES, N64, Wii, NES, GCN, Wii U
The SNES has many classics that are as playable today as they were then, and largely dominated a time period where game development had matured to a large industry, while still being experimental and unpredictable.
The N64 had Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time. Nintendo was leading the industry, creating iconic versions of largely new genres.
The Wii was daring and unique in spite of its flaws. While the console was a mess and died with a whimper, it did give me one of my favorite games of all time - Super Mario Galaxy. With beautiful orchestrated music and a fantastic blend of linear and exploratory level designs, aided by an imaginative world, it biases my whole view of the console for the better. Still, most of the promise of the console was not realized.
The NES was pivotal and many games are still fun, such as Zelda. Nostalgia is needed to enjoy the majority of them fully, since standard game features that streamline gameplay had yet to be invented.
The GCN era was a fall from grace for Nintendo in terms of sales, but had good technology and controls for the time and a decent number of gems. The Zelda and Mario titles had great aesthetics and concepts, but the execution was no longer at the Nintendo level of yore. They were more iterative, and less genre-defining. Metroid Prime was crazy good.
The Wii U is the first Nintendo console I could give a pass on entirely, but this is largely because of my preferences. The 3D Mario is okay, but a bit of a mess with multiple people and bland without. A lot of the excitement and production quality of Galaxy is gone, streamlined into a more classic style that left me and others playing underwhelmed. Still, games like Captain Toad and Pikmin 3 make it hard to fault it too harshly. The poor sales may also spark a more competitive and exciting successor than if it was a success.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on February 03, 2016, 07:07:28 PM
Well I feel bad, I started this thread hoping to have people come to defend the Wii U which is why I listed it's positives first, but I guess I should have known better.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Evan_B on February 03, 2016, 08:03:06 PM
Then your thread title should have aligned more with TOPHATANT's spinoff, rather than having a negative connotation. But, I digress.
Graphics =/= Level of texture resolution or HD visuals. Fast Racing NEO has 4K resolution textures, and it looks detailed. But it certainly doesn't have much going for it in terms of aesthetics. Aesthetic is possibly the most important lesson Nintendo learned from some of their greatest successes like DKC and Wind Waker- pre-rendered graphics are an artistic choice, not a technical one. So the graphics aspect of the Wii is utter nonsense, in my opinion, unless you hopped on the HD train early and want some post-purchase rationalization. Likewise, the graphical difference between Wii U and other systems is nowhere near the difference between SNS-N64 or N64-GCN. Power, however, and performance- those are things that matter. They will always matter. So when Bayonetta 2 runs like butter and Xenoblade Chronicles X does open-world almost seamlessly, that's an example of a developer getting the most out of the system. However, on the flipside, the ****-show that was the Wii U User Interface in its early days was absolutely unacceptable, and Nintendo better realize that. Growing pains of the HD-transition or no, they need to come out of the gate with some better loading times, a better integrated system between applications, and a little more polish.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: KeyBilly on February 04, 2016, 02:22:10 PM
Sorry if I was being too negative. The ranking is my own fickle one of Nintendo consoles, and I've enjoyed all of them. The Wii U is the lowest on that scale, but it is a good scale to be anywhere on.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Evan_B on February 04, 2016, 02:35:04 PM
I find that, during periods of refinement, Nintendo puts out their best work. NES, N64, and to some extent Wii U have all been introductory phases for them, and all have suffered in their own ways. NES is just simplistic, N64 established many themes for certain franchises but was hardly the perfect transitory phase, and Wii U has the scars of HD development all over it, despite performance generally being quite steady.
Whereas SNES was the culmination of previous ideas streamlined by gorgeous 16-bit graphics, Game Cube was a polishing of Nintendo's earlier forays with an emphasis on art style, and Wii was that, taken to a further extreme. Sure, there was lots of motion control experimentation, but the performance and visual styles of those games were fine-tuned to an extent that surpassed the GCN.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on February 04, 2016, 11:07:45 PM
Then your thread title should have aligned more with TOPHATANT's spinoff, rather than having a negative connotation. But, I digress.
Graphics =/= Level of texture resolution or HD visuals. Fast Racing NEO has 4K resolution textures, and it looks detailed. But it certainly doesn't have much going for it in terms of aesthetics. Aesthetic is possibly the most important lesson Nintendo learned from some of their greatest successes like DKC and Wind Waker- pre-rendered graphics are an artistic choice, not a technical one. So the graphics aspect of the Wii is utter nonsense, in my opinion, unless you hopped on the HD train early and want some post-purchase rationalization. Likewise, the graphical difference between Wii U and other systems is nowhere near the difference between SNS-N64 or N64-GCN. Power, however, and performance- those are things that matter. They will always matter. So when Bayonetta 2 runs like butter and Xenoblade Chronicles X does open-world almost seamlessly, that's an example of a developer getting the most out of the system. However, on the flipside, the ****-show that was the Wii U User Interface in its early days was absolutely unacceptable, and Nintendo better realize that. Growing pains of the HD-transition or no, they need to come out of the gate with some better loading times, a better integrated system between applications, and a little more polish.
Because I was curious if others felt it was their worst, I was never going to consider it as the best that is ridiculous. to me.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Evan_B on February 04, 2016, 11:30:58 PM
Well, I should have specified. I think TOP's title is equally as absurd. The title you chose doesn't seem to reflect your views, but it does have the ability to generate discussion.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on February 04, 2016, 11:56:47 PM
I was going for dialog, as in, make people really ask is it truly their worst console ever, and then they would conclude, rightfully :P: , that Wii is their worst console and Wii U is on par with, or better than, the vastly overrated N64.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: ejamer on February 05, 2016, 08:16:21 AM
I was going for dialog, as in, make people really ask is it truly their worst console ever, and then they would conclude, rightfully :P: : , that Wii is their worst console and Wii U is on par with, or better than, the vastly overrated N64.
You must be smoking some strange stuff.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: michaelbaysuperfan616 on February 05, 2016, 11:19:19 AM
I was going for dialog, as in, make people really ask is it truly their worst console ever, and then they would conclude, rightfully :P: : : , that Wii is their worst console and Wii U is on par with, or better than, the vastly overrated N64.
You must be smoking some strange stuff.
For thinking Wii was a piece of ****? I thought that was just understood.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Adrock on February 05, 2016, 11:43:50 AM
I like Wii. It had a lot of good games. I was looking through my backlog and I decided to actually play through Xenoblade Chronicles and The Last Story.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: Mop it up on February 05, 2016, 01:15:47 PM
Well I feel bad, I started this thread hoping to have people come to defend the Wii U which is why I listed it's positives first, but I guess I should have known better.
Nah, don't feel bad. People still had some positive things to say about the Wii U, I just don't think people feel the need to defend anything. It seemed like a conversation worth having (sorry about the side discussions that popped up!).
I was going for dialog, as in, make people really ask is it truly their worst console ever, and then they would conclude, rightfully :P: : , that Wii is their worst console and Wii U is on par with, or better than, the vastly overrated N64.
You must be smoking some strange stuff.
Ha ha, yeah, if anything people in here got closer to defending the Wii than Wii U.
Title: Re: Is Wii U Nintendo's worst home console ever?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 05, 2016, 06:46:17 PM
I'd have the Wii U ahead of the Wii, but the Wii ahead of most everything else. There's some great stuff there.
