Post by: Clock Nova on July 15, 2003, 06:35:32 PM
But here's my question: why is the GameCube, and even the N64 before it, so devoid of good RPGs? There seems to be a huge demand for them- so why don't we get them? Granted, there are some really good ones, but the truly great ones always seem to go to PS2 or XBox, or both. Why doesn't Nintendo get games like Morrowind or Knights of the Old Republic? I mean "real" RPGs like those, not silly "Action-RPG" Diablo clones like Dark Alliance. It can't be the whole "kiddie" nonsense, because the existence of games like Resident Evil and Eternal Darkness don't fit that mold. And the technical specs of the 'Cube are no problem, either.
Now, as long as I have a computer, I'll always be able to play the best RPGs. So I have no desire to purchase an XBox. But it would be nice to get some games like those on my console of choice. I'm sure this topic is old news to most of you, but I'm still in the dark. So, help me out. What's the logic behind all of this?
Post by: DrForester on July 15, 2003, 06:45:05 PM
As to the why i think the big problem is PS2 has all the big guns of RPG's in its corner. Companies may not want to try making RPG's becasue they don't want to go against those "big guns" and when a company does decide to test the RPG waters, they'd rather that test be on a system with 50 million users than a system with only 10 million users.
Post by: Gup on July 15, 2003, 06:50:41 PM
Post by: Clock Nova on July 15, 2003, 06:50:53 PM
Next!
Post by: Zeth on July 15, 2003, 07:27:59 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on July 15, 2003, 07:59:00 PM
Developers have always thrown them on PC. They often desire a mouse (Ever tried Diablo on PSone with the Dual Shock? BLEH) or they're online. It seems to me Nintendo have something against online games.
Developers are turning to the Xbox as their choice platform to port their Western PC RPGs. Hard drive, online, Windows, all that. It's easy.
The GameCube is indeed lacking in RPGs, both Western and Japanese... But there is hope in the form of Phantasy Star Online and the upcoming big exclusive RPGs from SquareEnix and Namco.
I'm guessing some developers are still bitter over the Nintendo 64, too. I mean, wow, that had like, one true RPG on it (Quest) and it was rubbish. Because hey, Zelda isn't an RPG as such....
Post by: Clock Nova on July 15, 2003, 08:36:46 PM
Post by: SC5 on July 15, 2003, 09:11:22 PM
But Bioware seems pretty friendly with Xbox now. And does rumors of MS purchasing Bioware still send chills down my back.
Sorry, but the cube's the place for western RPGs. Stick with the PC or get an Xbox (Kotor + A very buggy Morrowind)
Skies of Arcadia Legends is the best CONSOLE RPG I've played in a long time though, and I know even some of my PC gamer buddies really like it.
Post by: Grey Ninja on July 16, 2003, 02:48:22 AM
Post by: DRJ on July 16, 2003, 04:08:29 AM
On a side not I hear people talking about SoA and I have never played it on DC or GCN. It sounds good, why isnt it for sale anywhere? Best Buy, Toys R Us etc. don't seem, to have it. Did Sega only ship like 1000 of them?
Post by: PIAC on July 16, 2003, 04:52:44 AM
on the subject of western RPG's, has anyone played Arcanum of Steamworks and Magick Obscura (i had to go for the full name
) im playing it now, and having alot of fun
Post by: Grey Ninja on July 16, 2003, 05:04:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: DRJ
For me I prefer turn based RPGs. Something like Final Fantasy 7. When N64 came out Nintendo lost some good RPG developers to Sony. Basically the games would not fit on the cartridge. Look at FF7 it was three disks on playstation.
This is simply a myth. Final Fantasy VII would have fit on a single CD without FMV. There was actually a hack a while back that would allow you to play through Final Fantasy VII in its entirety on a single CD, but the FMV would be cut. This still wouldn't fit on a single N64 cart as is, but if the game was properly programmed, it would have. Make no mistake there. It would have been very different from the PSX version that came out, but it wouldn't have neccessarily been any worse.
The N64 was rejected by Square for whatever reasons. They had a falling out with Nintendo over something. That's pretty clear. Square acnowledged that they were in error when they came back to Nintendo though, and publicly apologized to Nintendo.
Nintendo lost Enix because they no longer controlled the largest userbase on consoles. It was that simple.
Post by: Ymeegod on July 16, 2003, 06:22:11 AM
No it wouldn't. Even if you converted the FMV to in-game cut scenes you'll still have the audio do deal with.
Hell the biggest cart that was released on the N64 was for RE2 and that was 512megaBITS (64MB's), which was an utter joke and hell no, FF VII wouldn't have fit even without the audio/FMV. The 3D textures alone were 130MBs.
And it's actually nintendo's fault. It stated it was going cd-based therefore developers (square) began developing for a CD system. So why would square who invested 30 Million into a game not try to find another system to release the game on?
Nintendo's ex pres, Yamauchi is the one that made a big issue with it and basically pulled Squaresoft from developing on Nintendo systems. Enix sooned followed square then nintendo followed up with another BRILLIANT move and canned the Mother series.
So in reality Nintendo's the one that killed itself in the RPG market. Now since the new president Iwata is taking over, square and nintendo seemed to have worked out a new arrangement. :0
Post by: Nephilim on July 16, 2003, 06:31:12 AM
Sony offerd them money to make the game for the playstation, and they went with sonys better offer
even since then everyone flocked to sony, It might of been a different story back now if Nintendo made Sqaure a good offer for the game
Post by: Grey Ninja on July 16, 2003, 07:04:37 AM
Ymeegod, I said that FF7 wouldn't have been the same as the PSX version. It would have been programmed specifically for the N64, which means that the 130MB of textures would have been programmed for the N64, using the N64's hardware compression techniques. Carts don't look very big, but they hold a whole lot of stuff. You would really be surprised. Look at Zelda: OoT. Total size of the cart? 256Mb (32MB).
Square's CD based games were scrapped with the SNES. They were developing CD based games for a 16 bit system known as a SNES, not a PSX. In fact, one of them still exists, and was known as Seiken Densetsu 3 (Secret of Mana 2) in Japan. Nintendo 64 being cart based had NOTHING to do with Square's WIP games on a CD medium.
Square was the one who left Nintendo. Get your facts straight. When they left, they made a big deal of it, saying that they couldn't make games on the N64 as the hardware was insufficient, and they would NEVER make games for another Nintendo system. Nintendo responded by saying that "It couldn't be helped." A simple phrase that totally underplayed the importance of Square's departure. Square was insulted at being treated so lightly, and responded with an ad campaign trashing the N64. Years later, when Square wanted to develop for Nintendo systems again, Nintendo demanded demotions of the people responsible. Square accepted, and became a liscensed Nintendo developer again. The people responsible were publicly humiliated by having their job title changed to a lower form.
Enix left Nintendo because they didn't sell enough consoles. I thought I made that clear earlier. Besides, Nintendo makes Mother, not Enix. PLEASE get your facts straight.
Post by: Darc Requiem on July 16, 2003, 07:05:57 AM
Darc Requiem
Post by: Grey Ninja on July 16, 2003, 07:08:44 AM
Final Fantasy of course is a thorough dissapointment, and unfortunately, it seems that my beloved Breath of Fire series is going down the drain too.
Post by: The Omen on July 16, 2003, 07:15:56 AM
Post by: Clock Nova on July 16, 2003, 07:23:41 AM
Post by: Clock Nova on July 16, 2003, 09:45:48 AM
Post by: ThePerm on July 16, 2003, 02:14:24 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on July 16, 2003, 02:19:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Clock Nova
Hey, I have another question. Is there any point in my buying Phantasy Star On-line if I don't play on-line? From what I've read, it does have a single-player, off-line mode, but I can't figure out if it is any good that way. I'm really not interested in an on-line RPG, but the game sounds pretty cool. So, what do you think? Is it worth buying just for single-player gaming? Perhaps if I get a good deal on it?
From what I hear, the single player mode will quickly grow very unfun. I have also heard though, that if you are able to get 3 friends, the 4 player offline mode can be quite enjoyable. I don't have the game myself, as I am not really a fan of those types of RPGs, but I am sure that it would be right up your alley.
There is a trial version[/l of the PC version for you to sample though, and see how you like it. From what I hear from PSO fans, it's vastly inferior to the GCN version, but it should give you a sample of what to expect. It's even online!
Post by: CrEEpEr on July 16, 2003, 02:36:20 PM
Post by: Ymeegod on July 16, 2003, 04:33:22 PM
I never said Enix created or developed the mother series :0. I stated nintendo ****-canned there own turn-based RPG which left N64 gamers with ZIP. Even if Square/Enix left, Nintendo should have created it's own RPGS for the N64. It's not like it couldn't since it has plenty of funding.
And just because the hardware was available at a certain time doesn't mean the game wasn't in developement longer than that. 4-6 years for some of these games and right now and usually the specs on systems can change a few months prior to them launching.
For example, right now there's developers right now who are working on next generation of software without the hardware even being finalized. What happens when the manufactures changes specs? Do you just ****-can what you're done or simply convert it to another format?
Post by: Grey Ninja on July 16, 2003, 05:06:16 PM
Earthbound 64 was cancelled because the 64DD never took off. From the very beginning, the game was planned as a 64DD game. It's possible that we might see it on GameCube as an SD-card game, but don't hold your breath. Fire Emblem 64 however, was in fact released IIRC.
Post by: Ymeegod on July 16, 2003, 05:27:00 PM
It was show at spaceworld 99' running on a cart.
Reason for it's cancellation was because the developers were taking to long (6 years) or that's what nintendo stated anyhow.
Post by: )Dark-LInk( on July 16, 2003, 05:30:51 PM
Post by: Clock Nova on July 16, 2003, 05:40:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ThePerm
yeah its not like xbox gets alot of rpgs either....the only oen i can think of is the upcoming fable...and thats more of a zelfda style action rpg rather then a traditional turned based one...regardless i am looking forward to it and htat was the only real reason i let my friend decide to get an xbox.
You seem to be forgetting "Morrowind" and "Knights of the Old Republic." They're definitely RPGs. Those two look pretty cool, and are pretty much the only games on the XBox that I consider 'must-haves.' Not enough to actually buy an XBox, but worth wishing for.
Does anyone think that Knights of the old Republic will ever see a PC version? Morrowind is already a PC game.
Post by: Clock Nova on July 16, 2003, 05:41:56 PM
Post by: Ymeegod on July 16, 2003, 05:43:59 PM
Umm.. 10/14/2003 is the last date giving by GS for the PC release.
Post by: Gup on July 16, 2003, 05:46:05 PM
Post by: Clock Nova on July 16, 2003, 06:03:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ymeegod
"Knights of the old Republic will ever see a PC version"
Umm.. 10/14/2003 is the last date giving by GS for the PC release.
Great. Seeing as how most of Bioware's other RPG's (though, sadly, not all) have made it to the Macintosh, there's a better than average chance I may be able to play it one day without an XBox. Plus, it will look and play even better. If not, there are always friends with Wintels to go and visit... And with Halo coming to Mac and PC, that leaves only Morrowind, which will likely (though not absolutely) not make it to the Mac. Again, friends may have to do.
As someone just said, most of the XBox's best games are either playable on PCs or on other consoles.
Still, good non-linear RPGs would be nice to have on my 'Cube.
Post by: Ymeegod on July 16, 2003, 06:07:33 PM
To many, the announcement seemed more science fiction than science fact. Codenamed Project Reality, the new console would use 64bit, ''Reality Immersion Technology'' from $20,000 workstations and yet cost less than $250. Screenshots showed Mario and friends incongruously placed within high res, military sim cityscapes. This was not how it was supposed to be...
In 1988, Nintendo had signed an agreement with Sony for a SNES/CD-ROM Drive combo called PlayStation. It was officially announced at the 1991 June CES and Sony, not Nintendo, would control the licensing of software on the system''s Super Discs. Despite a dramatic re-negotiation of the contract sparked 24 hours later, the machine itself remained on track. At the ''92 Summer CES, Nintendo insisted the SNES CD-ROM Drive would ship in late ''93. Devkits were in use, games were deep in development."
If you look at FFVII developement time (6 years) that means the game started out in 1990, three years prior to nintendo ending the deal with sony.
Post by: BrianSLA on July 16, 2003, 06:36:34 PM
Morrowind has been out a year plus Morrowind Game of the Year ( all expansions ) is out soon. BUT Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic released TODAY!!!!!
Yes there is a PC version in the works but don't expect it until much later this year. As for the game KOTOR was degigned FOR the Xbox. It is getting a PC port.
Post by: Grey Ninja on July 16, 2003, 06:38:48 PM
Ymeegod, I suppose you are right. FF7 was originally intended for an optical medium, and to change plans would have involved a huge change in plans. But I still maintain that FF7 could very well have been made for N64 had it been rewritten from scratch. Also, we have no idea what was made in the 3 years prior to Nintendo and Sony parting ways. In all likelihood, it was things such as story details, textures, and background art, which doesn't really help my case very much I guess. Bah, I am going to go watch the DVD I rented and stop fueling the argument against me.
Clock Nova, play some PSO, and decide for yourself. I don't own the game, so you shouldn't take too much stock in what I say. You can rent it from a video store, or you can play the trial version of the PC version.
EDIT: Dark Link, I am sorry, but much of what I said about the Nintendo/Square situation comes from multiple sources, and it's been a long time since I have researched what went on. I did try to seek out what really happened back in the day though, and that's what I gathered went on judging from the evidence and stories that I found. I don't think that anyone outside of Nintendo and Square know the full truth, but I think that what I posted is close enough to the "truth" for passing. I tried to leave out most of my opinions on the matter, leaving much of what was publicly available, such as the Square demotions, and Square's advertising campaigns.
EDIT2: BrianSLA: Star Wars KOTR being designed for Xbox == designed for PC. Look at it from a development perspective. Designing a game for Xbox involves using DirectX to code for specific hardware. Coding a game for a PC requires using DirectX to code for a general platform. The reason so many Xbox games are released for PC is that it's a very trivial exercise to port one game to the other. Microsoft was smart in a way for making a console that was PC compatible. They knew that they would never have enough support to make it on their own, so they "borrowed" games from the PC's library to make up the slack.
Post by: The Real Mario on July 16, 2003, 09:14:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ymeegod
In 1988, Nintendo had signed an agreement with Sony for a SNES/CD-ROM Drive combo called PlayStation.
Ymeegod, do you have a link for that information? Because it doesnt make sense for Nintendo to sign an agreement for a SNES/CD-ROM drive if they could just make the whole system disc based. I mean, the agreement was signed 2 years before the SNES was released, (probably sooner in Japan not sure there) they could've redesigned the system to be disc based with that much time before the console launched.
Post by: SC5 on July 16, 2003, 09:31:40 PM
Knights of The Old Republic is coming out on PC in october, on the 15th to be precise (which is when I will buy it). I am assuming the PC version will have bonus stuff over the Xbox version. Not to mention a "collector's box" (Bioware loves making those for it's PC releases).
The Xbox version of Morrowind is buggy to the point of not being playable, so you can't say it's a big "plus" for Xbox.
Post by: Clock Nova on July 16, 2003, 09:46:16 PM
Can you tell I'm primarily a computer gamer? The irony is that I bought the 'Cube to fill in the obvious gaps that being a Mac gamer leaves in my gaming library, only to discover that I had purchased the console with the most gaps in its gaming library. Oh, well. So long as Nintendo keeps giving me Metroid, Zelda, and Eternal Darkness-style games, I'll be happy.
Post by: Grey Ninja on July 16, 2003, 10:56:24 PM
But yeah, I can tell that you are a PC gamer. GameCube was intended for use by a console gamer, so I don't know what to tell ya. Get a PC?
The Real Mario, That's the way it went down. Playstation began its life as an addon for SNES, and Nintendo eventually decided to scrap the idea and start anew with the N64.
Post by: Ymeegod on July 17, 2003, 03:17:39 AM
In 1991 it SegaCD was released and it bombed and why I think Nintendo jumped ship off the contract.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" Mac gamer leaves "
LOL, think I found your problem. Time to ditch the good ole Mac and get a real-mans PC :0. I ditched mine back in 1995 and haven't looked back.
Hell even Unix based OS's get more gaming support than the macs.
Post by: Grey Ninja on July 17, 2003, 03:20:17 AM
Post by: Ymeegod on July 17, 2003, 03:23:13 AM
You might want to either rent this one or even buy it (I can find it in local shops for less than $20 used).
Post by: egman on July 17, 2003, 04:39:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ymeegod
Sega CD was on it's draw board back in 1988, cd's was kinda new and everyone wanted on.
In 1991 it SegaCD was released and it bombed and why I think Nintendo jumped ship off the contract.
I thought Nintendo canned it ultimately because their contract with Sony would have given Sony much more control of the software on that system than they would've felt comfortable with?
As for the main topic, I can see what Darc means--this generation has been pretty bad about RPGs overall. I can only guess as to why that is so. Maybe the dedication required for RPGs has made developers fearful about heavily marketing a genre that's not casual friendly. Maybe the high production values that are becoming standard in today's RPG is holding back the rapid production of games.
Whatever it is, we're fortunate to get even a handful of decent ones on the Cube in spite of the userbase. With a genre that is still semi-niche, the console with the largest userbase is generally going to be the one hording them.
Post by: Clock Nova on July 17, 2003, 06:45:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ymeegod
LOL, think I found your problem. Time to ditch the good ole Mac and get a real-mans PC :0. I ditched mine back in 1995 and haven't looked back.
Hell even Unix based OS's get more gaming support than the macs.
Hoboy. Let's not let this thread devolve into one of THOSE discussions. But, for the record, Mac OSX is a UNIX based OS. And we get a lot more games and gaming support than Linux users do. A lot more. You must be thinking of the Mac circa 1995. Turns out, with my Mac and my 'Cube, I have more than enough games to keep me playing for longer than I probably should. At this rate, I may never finish my thesis.
I just want to play decent RPGs on my 'Cube. Is that so much to ask?
Quote
Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
It's completely beyond me why people would buy a Mac in this day and age if they aren't a professional artist to tell you the truth. In that way, we are in 100% agreement Ymeegod.
Well, funny thing is, I bought a Mac for the same reason you probably bought a GameCube: despite its modest deficiencies and mild lack of support from certain developers, it's the best damn machine of its kind on the market and the software made for it, while lower in quantity, is of the highest quality around. I feel about Apple the same way I feel about Nintendo. Surely you can understand that.
Does that answer your question?
Now, let's no one else mention Mac vs PC in this thread again.
Oh, and, by the way, my 'manhood' is entirely unaffected by my choice of PCs...
...my choice of consoles on the other hand...
Post by: SC5 on July 17, 2003, 01:31:32 PM
How can the cube give you what it doesn't have? You're asking for Bioware to make a non-linear RPG for a console which is very far away from that demographic.
And I can understand the whole, Apple = quality over quantity = Nintendo. But the thing is, I bought the cube for games like Zelda, Metroid and Mario while the Mac really doesn't get much of anything that the PC doesn't already have, except for a handfull of things like Zork Nemesis and those Bungie titles before it got bought by MS.
Post by: KnowsNothing on July 17, 2003, 01:42:28 PM
Just thought, new fighting games for the GCN should have a mode to be able to link up the GBA and use that as a controller, for those of you who do not, or can't get a Hori digital pad (if that's what it's called). Just a thought.
Post by: Clock Nova on July 17, 2003, 02:08:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SC5
"I just want to play decent RPGs on my 'Cube. Is that so much to ask?"
How can the cube give you what it doesn't have? You're asking for Bioware to make a non-linear RPG for a console which is very far away from that demographic.
And I can understand the whole, Apple = quality over quantity = Nintendo. But the thing is, I bought the cube for games like Zelda, Metroid and Mario while the Mac really doesn't get much of anything that the PC doesn't already have, except for a handfull of things like Zork Nemesis and those Bungie titles before it got bought by MS.
At this point, the argument is academic. I understand now why the 'Cube gets so few RPGs. I just wish that it wasn't the case. Thanks.
And I bought my 'Cube for those same reasons, SC5. As I said, as long as I have games like Zelda, Metroid and Mario, I'm happy with my cube. And as long as I have games like Neverwinter Nights, Civ 3, MoO 3, and Unreal 2003 on my Mac, I'm happy with that, too. Having a Mac, like having a GameCube, means that while I may not get all of the good games, I usually get the best.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on July 17, 2003, 02:14:43 PM
Aw, dropped it.
Post by: mouse_clicker on July 17, 2003, 09:38:13 PM
Post by: Clock Nova on July 17, 2003, 09:48:16 PM
Post by: Nephilim on July 18, 2003, 09:42:26 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
Deadly D, Footage from Final Fantasy 64 still exists. It wasn't anything mroe than a test level really. It featured 3D versions of Final Fantasy VI characters attacking a huge boss. It was pretty cool.
Ymeegod, I said that FF7 wouldn't have been the same as the PSX version. It would have been programmed specifically for the N64, which means that the 130MB of textures would have been programmed for the N64, using the N64's hardware compression techniques. Carts don't look very big, but they hold a whole lot of stuff. You would really be surprised. Look at Zelda: OoT. Total size of the cart? 256Mb (32MB).
Square's CD based games were scrapped with the SNES. They were developing CD based games for a 16 bit system known as a SNES, not a PSX. In fact, one of them still exists, and was known as Seiken Densetsu 3 (Secret of Mana 2) in Japan. Nintendo 64 being cart based had NOTHING to do with Square's WIP games on a CD medium.
Square was the one who left Nintendo. Get your facts straight. When they left, they made a big deal of it, saying that they couldn't make games on the N64 as the hardware was insufficient, and they would NEVER make games for another Nintendo system. Nintendo responded by saying that "It couldn't be helped." A simple phrase that totally underplayed the importance of Square's departure. Square was insulted at being treated so lightly, and responded with an ad campaign trashing the N64. Years later, when Square wanted to develop for Nintendo systems again, Nintendo demanded demotions of the people responsible. Square accepted, and became a liscensed Nintendo developer again. The people responsible were publicly humiliated by having their job title changed to a lower form.
Enix left Nintendo because they didn't sell enough consoles. I thought I made that clear earlier. Besides, Nintendo makes Mother, not Enix. PLEASE get your facts straight.
Final Fantasy 7 for Ultra 64 pics were shown back in like 94-95, It was one of the first N64 games shown
for you to say it has 130megs of textures is INSANE, compared to games made back then, It would of been the biggest game for its time by far compression or not, even the orginal psx games were on barely 50megs....
im sure you could go to any n64 hacker forum and they will agree
Post by: theRPGFreak on July 18, 2003, 05:57:20 PM
Post by: DrForester on July 18, 2003, 07:35:20 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on July 18, 2003, 10:25:37 PM
No, he's right- I thought it was common knowledge by now. As Ymeegod also said, Sega had it's own Genesis CD add-on which Nintendo was combating. However, Ninendo didn't pull out of their deal with Sony because of the Sega CD flop- I believe they didn't like Sony's terms or something so they went behind Sony's back and started a deal with Phillips (the other pioneer in CD technology)- they basically double crossed Sony. Sony took the unfinished CD add-on and eventually retooled it into the Playstation. The failure of the Sega CD was what caused Nintendo to end their relationship with Phillips in an almost as messy affair. Phillips made their own console out of the CD add-on called the CD-i. They even forced Nintendo into giving them the rights to make 3 Zelda games for it, which most people try to forget.
FF7 was never actually planned for the N64- as people have stated, Square made a polygonal tech demo with FF6 characters before they and Nintendo had their break up.
