Post by: TheoNeumann on June 21, 2003, 12:40:17 AM
Do you think that Nintendo have forgotten about the older generation [a.k.a people who were brought up on NES or SNES, 15-20 yrs old] and have gone kinda .... soft?
I just think that to get a challenge in a gamecube game recently it involves Resident Evil or other scary games
Im not saying that those type of games are bad they are good ED was great if not a little easy
Take Zelda for example, the age group i mentioned "older" will remember the classic Zelda on the SNES. The wind waker on NCG, for as beautifully created as it is... was way too easy and i have to admit to be dissapointed with it. And im really afriad that mario kart will be going down the same route, SMB 2 is way easier then the first one
I am aware of the 3+ rating and 11+ rating, but all the classic titles which come back and all the nintendo new stuff for the gamecube appears to be 3+ and will be too easy
i hope to god you make sense of all that jibberish but im getting quite angry by the general easyness ever increasing for NGB
£40.00 wasted continously
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 21, 2003, 02:35:28 AM
But remember, older gamers have lived quite long enough to improve their gaming skills over time. So the opposite perspective is the older crowd has gotten much better at playing games while at the same time Nintendo hasn't adjusted its challenge levels, instead of Nintendo seemingly making things easier.
However, the "older market" hasn't been Nintendo's target market. "E" (for Everyone) is.
Just some thoughts.
Post by: Bartman3010 on June 21, 2003, 02:40:26 AM
Its kinda sad too, since I thought Mario could've been even harder. I want more games to be based on reflex and timing.
Post by: Artimus on June 21, 2003, 04:17:50 AM
Metroid Prime wasn't easy, and you can try hard mode. Pikmin wasn't overly easy either. Eternal Darkness is a great challenge on the higher difficulty modes. Super Monkey Ball/2 is as cute as they come, but you can't tell me it is easy.
The only easy game is really Zelda, and that's hardly a crime. Maybe you're just too good for modern video games? And honestly, when was the last time you played a HARD Square game? Their games aren't hard at all if you level up enough, but no one complains...
As for Mario Kart...it's Mario Kart. Why would that be easier?!
Post by: TheoNeumann on June 21, 2003, 05:46:39 AM
Quote
Just some thoughts
great shout m8
Quote
And honestly, when was the last time you played a HARD Square game?
hmmmm, i guess it must be Secret of Mana on the SNES,[ i was around 7] yeah im getting a clearer picture now
in response to other peoples questions:
Super Mario Sunshine was NOT hard getting all the shine sprites from the actual levels
but im very happy to say the rest of the shine sprites where you need blue coins to get, you really need to clear every single level out of blue coins and that is extremely time consuming and hard
I think Super Mario Kart DD will be easy Artimus i cant give you any evidence its just my gut feeling
it may be easier becuase a lot of the mario franchises have been easy for NGC we will have to see
my final point [for this turn!] is a contributor to easyness on a couple of big NGC titles, ED and Wind waker
I suppose you noticed in ED any objects that are important that u need to pick up flash? it would be much better just to find them without the flash, i know the rooms are dark but still a big giveaway
And finally on wind waker on the bosses there is a little yellow arrow where you need to hit etc
i hate being told how to do bosses like that
3+ is not a good label becuase when i was 3 i was playing with fire engines and tractors and stuff!
Post by: Uglydot on June 21, 2003, 06:07:54 AM
Post by: CHEN on June 21, 2003, 06:25:49 AM
Post by: Round Eye on June 21, 2003, 07:20:18 AM
I am so bad though, this is me playing:
Alright here we go
*ship explodes*
Lucky shot, this time I am goi...
*ship explodes*
Alright then so you wanna piece
*ship explodes*
Thats it now I am mad
*ship explodes*
Oh yah
*ship explodes*
10
9
8
7
6
5
3
2
1
GAME OVER
We will meet again someday soon.
Awesome game though. I am not worthy.
Post by: Stu on June 21, 2003, 08:47:58 AM
You've beaten hard mode on Ikaruga, and approached 30 million points?
You've beaten Master Mode on Super Monkey Ball 1 and 2?
You've got all the Ace medals on Rogue Leader?
120 Shines on Mario Sunshine?
All gold medals on the Tiger Woods 2003 scenarios?
Beaten Expert mode on Wave Race: Blue Storm?
Hard Mode on Timeplsitters 2? (Siberia, Atom Smasher and Robot Factory)
I'll take a guess that you haven't, you knoiw why? Because it would be too hard.
If you've done all that, you're a better man than me. Don't buy the Wind Waker and expect a challenge; just enjoy the story, and let the game flow. Ikaruga is for challenge, Pikmin is for a relaxing quality experiance.
I think your claims of 'getting tired of the general easyness' is self inflicted; there are plenty of games out there, that you will come nowhere near to completing without a lot of skill and a large amount of time invested in them, you just need to play them. To be honest, with the list of games above, there is no case at all, for Nintendo games being too easy... as I said, just don't base everything around the Wind Waker.
Post by: Ninja X on June 21, 2003, 09:39:15 AM
Post by: aoi tsuki on June 21, 2003, 01:22:44 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on June 21, 2003, 01:42:05 PM
I still think games should be harder, though- occasionally you get a few ridiculously hard games, like Super Monkey Ball and Ikaruga, but on the whole games are a bit too easy. I definitely agree developers should beef up the difficulty in their games to get casual gamers into the mindset of playing hard games, or at least include a difficulty setting. Usually it's just one little thing that makes the game so much easier. For instance, in Wind Waker enemies didn't do enough damage, making it very hard to get to the brink of death. It wasn't the puzzles, or the amount of enemies, or their AI, it was just that the consequence for fouling up wasn't bad at all. And in Eternal Darkness it wasn't the level design or the amount of damage, it was the ability to not only heal when ever you needed to, but to protect yourself against even serious enemies. If these few things would change, it would make a world of difference.
BTW, this is my 1000th post on the new forum!!! w00t!!
Post by: Cap on June 21, 2003, 01:50:28 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on June 21, 2003, 03:18:28 PM
Just go play some early Nintendo games like Super Mario Bros. You might find that the game is surprisingly easy to you nowdays. Then go play some Mario Sunshine. The level of difficulty is about the same.
Post by: telaris on June 21, 2003, 05:17:33 PM
Accessability. The gaming industry is huge these days compared to the earlier 80's and 90's. One of the factors is because people who werent weaned on Nintendo as a child can now pick up a game and become good at it. and if they like the game and they get to know the game company another loyal customer is born.
Post by: almondblight on June 21, 2003, 06:55:26 PM
Post by: Ninja X on June 21, 2003, 07:28:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: aoi tsuki
Ikaruga's a bad example though. Shmups (shoot 'em ups) in general require fast reflexes, pattern memorization, and the stamina to fight relentless waves of enemies. This makes them hard for most people. Ikaruga's no different. Frankly, the main thing keep Ikaruga from attaining pure "old school" status is the gameplay.
Ikaruga still exists in the GCN library as a difficult game. If he wants one, let him take Ikaruga. It's no different from any other difficult game out there. Yes, its genre is one known for its difficulty, but Treasure still had the option of making it easier for the general audience. Yet, it did not...
Post by: BlkPaladin on June 21, 2003, 08:49:56 PM
For games though like Mario where HP isn't delt with its harder. (Unless you make it easier for mario to die. =Though the Secrets were a good addition.)
Post by: TheoNeumann on June 22, 2003, 12:55:27 AM
everyone keeps mentioning ikaruga, yes it does sound hard,[ iv not been on it ] but just becuase that game isnt easy it doesnt make up for the huge amount that are, you cant use ikaruga to defend all the easy games NGC has produced.
Referring back to the point that Stu said with his long list of tasks which are very hard,what do u notice about the those? Thats right, the outstanding majority contain "hard mode" or master mode" etc. Which takes away the subject quite frankly. Why should I pay.... £40, to get a game
which only gets hard with a change of difficulty level?? I expect the raw challenge from the start, i wont to go into a new game excited without even casting an eye on the diff level.
Using wind waker, where is the diff level for that? That game was built up for months and months and months, and as the months flew by i was getting excited, only to realise the game was a total peice of pi$$! I completed it within 6 weeks or summat. Games without diff levels should be made harder and WW was is no exception, there is no excuse why that game should have been amde to be as easy at it was. And finishing on WW, the last boss with the great Ganon, that was just a farce. [If you havent done it yet im sorry id stop reading]
The last third of the boss where you have to reflect the light onto him and hit him as much as possible was very hard and i thought was a brilliant ending, i couildnt do it for ages, [or so i thought] only then to realise by accident when i presses A to do a defensive attack, he got hit on the head with one shot and that was it, so lame! How is that a boss to end the game? it isnt! However if they [nintendo] would have realised to take off that stupid yellow arrow above his head i wouldnt have even got past that boss yet which i think would have been cool! And the ending was poor as well, i just wanted to walk around, sail wherever and do little things like nintendo gallery etc. But it just started all over again in different clothes.
I would like to finish by saying im having a dig at zelda becuase it was a beautiful experience but it was too easy, if there is a worse example of easyness this year[ i feasr MarioKDD] i will do the same to that as well
Post by: Drz on June 22, 2003, 05:51:36 AM
Quote
Using wind waker, where is the diff level for that? That game was built up for months and months and months, and as the months flew by i was getting excited, only to realise the game was a total peice of pi$$!l
You've lost all your credibility in my eyes by saying that.
Post by: Ninja X on June 22, 2003, 06:11:18 AM
Listening, games are made to be easier to access, and that is why developers put in a difficulty mode. If you want difficult games that are natural, look back at Nintendo or Super Nintendo. Games are not going to change anytime soon. In fact, this situation might get "worse" in your opinion.
Post by: TheoNeumann on June 22, 2003, 09:41:55 AM
somwhow iv struck a never with some guys in here
dunno why. if u read what i said earlier then i said zelda was a beautifully created game but a bit too easy
so when i called it a peice of pi$$ im doing the exact same thing without the beginnig part of the phrase
ok more easy games if thats what you want
Mario Party 4 [even on Expert mode]
Luigi Mansion
Pikmin
SMB 1
SMSunshine
and more easy games to come so stop picking fights and just admit im right
Post by: mouse_clicker on June 22, 2003, 12:17:14 PM
Post by: Artimus on June 22, 2003, 01:02:59 PM
Mario Sunshine was great, challenging, but not impossible.
Sounds to me like the problem isn't the games, but you. You'd want impossible games that a nomral person can't enjoy. I suggest you get Tetris or somehting.
Post by: Grey Ninja on June 22, 2003, 02:07:56 PM
Post by: Artimus on June 22, 2003, 02:14:30 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on June 22, 2003, 05:34:28 PM
Who, Theo? I beat Wind Waker in 6 days- mind you, though, that is without getting nearly every collectible and after playing at least 6 hours a day.
I do think Wind Waker isn't as difficult as past Zelda games, though- the puzzles are up to par and everything, but like I said, the damage enemies deal out is too little to really put you in danger of dying. I think I died once, while fighting 3 Knuckle Knights in one of the mini-dungeons with the Hero's Sword. I died quite a few times in other Zelda games, especially in Link to the Past.Super Monkey Ball is insane on Expert, and I've heard the Master levels are some of the hardest videogame levels ever.
Post by: Ocarina Blue on June 22, 2003, 07:51:52 PM
My second point is that Irkaruga seems to be apealing to alot of people because of its difficulty. If it ever comes to Australia (does anyone know if it will?), I'll buy it because I've heard so much about how challenging it is. Maybe more games will be like in the future? It could become a niche-market.
Post by: Stu on June 22, 2003, 11:29:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: TheoNeumann
Referring back to the point that Stu said with his long list of tasks which are very hard,what do u notice about the those? Thats right, the outstanding majority contain "hard mode" or master mode" etc. Which takes away the subject quite frankly. Why should I pay.... £40, to get a game
which only gets hard with a change of difficulty level?? I expect the raw challenge from the start, i wont to go into a new game excited without even casting an eye on the diff level.
Erm, well that’s how games work. Easy mode is easy, and Hard mode is hard. Monkey Ball is a perfect example of this; you start off with the easy levels, which allow you to get used to the basic controls, then you tackle the next mode (Advanced) which starts to test you, and which you wont beat until you have progressed, and then you tackle Expert, which you wont beat until you are very good. Then it's on to Master, and in Monkey Ball 2, Master Extra, which are the hardest of all. It works.
What exactly is your point here? You don't think games should have difficult settings, or you don't like it when you have to use a difficulty setting in order to be challenged? I disagree if it's the first point, and I can't see the problem with the second.
I really can't see why you'd have more of a problem paying £40 for a game which had difficulty settings, than you would paying £40 for a game without them. Why would you want a game to be hard from the outset? I see no reason for that to happen; as long as Monkey Ball is giving me a challenge by the time I get to Advance, then the jobs well done. Ikaruga, by the way, will more than test you on Easy, it's that sort of game.
Lets have a look at the games I listed:
1) Ikaruga. Hardcore gamers only, for this one. Mind numbingly hard to even stay alive... on Easy... on the first level. By the time you are trying to get 30 million points, or complete the game on 1 credit, its almost impossible to do. More than enough challenge for anyone, and a brilliant game as well.
2) Monkey Ball 1 & 2. Brilliantly paced, with the early levels only there to allow you to get used to the controls, the middle levels offering just the right level of challenge, and the Expert levels really separating the men from the boys. This all happens before we get to Master, which, on Monkey Ball 1 at least, I reckon less than 15% of gamers will do. More than enough challenge, from a cartoony game.
3) Rogue Leader. The Ace medals are awarded for doing very well on a certain mission, the missions are long and involved enough to offer enough challenge just to complete them, but for the real masters, this challenge awaits. Again, more than enough challenge.
4) Super Mario Sunshine. Perfect balance of difficulty, in my opinion. The Shines range from very easy, to the very difficult void levels, and then the even more difficult hidden shines, many of which have you doing a void level, with a time limit, and having to collect 8 red coins.
5) Tiger Woods 2003. Again, a perfect and very challenging difficulty setting. As you stats get higher, so does the quality of your opponents, so if you don't learn how to improve your score with those stats, you fall behind. The scenarios, which I mentioned, are again very well balanced, with bronze, silver and gold medals, to challenge novice, good and great players.
6) Wave Race Blue Storm. Another game with those difficulty levels, that you seem to dislike, for some reason. The controls on this game take no prisoners; you either get used to them, or you lose. Therefore, having a few simple courses first, followed by harder ones where the AI pulls no punches, makes sense. It allows the game to flow, being both hard enough to give experienced players a challenge, and easy enough at the start, to allow you time to get used to the game.
7) Timesplitters 2. Probably the best example, of a well used difficulty setting. On Easy, you only play a certain amount of the level; enough to get a feel of the game, but still leaving much to be discovered. When you play on the middle difficulty setting, you get the full level, and when on Hard, you get the full level, without a lot of the health and armour items, and with the AI on full alert. Again, this allows anyone to play, but still offers a challenge to even the most experienced players. Siberia, Atom Smasher and Robot Factory, on hard, will test anyone.
As I said, I don't think there is a lack of hard games on the Gamecube, I just think you aren't playing them. If you brought the Wind Waker expecting some sort of hardcore challenge, then you were obviously going to be disappointed. The Wind Waker is telling a story, with you in the staring role, it's not trying to be hard (like Ikaruga, Monkey Ball and the other are), because it doesn't need to be, in order to do what it sets out to do. There are story games, and hardcore games, and by playing both of these, you can get all the enjoyment and all the challenge you want, and all without laving your Gamecube.
I see no problem with that.
QuoteWell, people are disagreeing with you, and they are giving their reasons for doing so, as well as providing evidence. Why, in these circumstances, would anyone just admit you are right? If you disagree, then do so by offering constructive and well thought out reasons why; making statements like you just did will simply make you appear pig headed and ignorant. These (moderated) forums are here for the discussion of Gamecube related issues, not for you to shout everyone down with silly statements like 'just admit I'm right'.
so stop picking fights and just admit im right
Thanks and enjoy your Gamecube,
Stu.
Post by: Luciferschild on June 23, 2003, 09:47:51 AM
Post by: TheoNeumann on June 23, 2003, 10:55:09 AM
i think we have all learned 2 things from this
1. Not all games are easy after all, but the majority without a diff level are
2. Ikargua is a game worth getting
Thanks and GoodNight
Post by: Ian Sane on June 23, 2003, 02:42:12 PM
Zelda is too easy. Not only have I never died but I rarely even use fairies. With Ocarina of Time I beat most of the bosses in one try but often I went in with four fairies and ended up using all of them in the battle. With Wind Waker I've been wandering around with four fairies for a long time. But one title doesn't mean that Nintendo is getting too easy.
Super Mario Sunshine actually wasn't that much more difficult than Super Mario 64. It's just that Mario Sunshine is more linear which makes it appear harder. In Mario 64 if you were stuck on a star it wasn't that big of a deal because there were a lot more levels to try and if you were clever you could also get stars out of order. With Mario Sunshine you have to do almost everything in a certain order so if you're stuck on a specific shine you're F*CKED.
Basically Nintendo screwed up on two of their biggest titles and that's why people are freaking out. If it was any two different titles we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 23, 2003, 02:44:24 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on June 23, 2003, 07:01:56 PM
I agree, some of the games can be rather easy. But I still have tons of fun playing them.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 23, 2003, 09:37:53 PM
Speaking of hard: Grab Dogma from some freeware site.
Post by: Oldskool on June 24, 2003, 05:04:50 AM
Post by: Tekkena on June 24, 2003, 06:41:02 AM
Post by: mouse_clicker on June 24, 2003, 06:53:03 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on June 24, 2003, 06:56:12 AM
I never actually had much trouble with linearity or whatever in Sunshine. Once you beat the first three or four levels of the first stage or two, it's fine. I was playing every level except that hotel one by the time I got that light beam in the middle of Delfino Plaza (fiftieth shine, or what?), and before that, I was playing three or four levels. I didn't see that as a problem at all. . .
Post by: almondblight on June 24, 2003, 08:06:49 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on June 24, 2003, 12:52:19 PM
Post by: HolyPaladin on June 26, 2003, 07:26:58 AM
I don't think it is that games are getting easier, either. The games we consider easy today are still more difficult than the games that were once considered challenging fifteen years ago. It is not so much that the games get easier as much as that the gamers get more skilled. Not all gamers have those years worth of skills, though, so catering to those experienced expert gamers shuts out newer gamers or those that don't get to play eight hours a day every day and don't get to buy or rent X amount of games each week.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 26, 2003, 07:46:10 AM
We all had those moments in old games where we would die and we would be pissed off because it made no sense why we died. "All I did was step in a PUDDLE! What the f*ck?!!" Modern games are too advanced for idiotic deaths to be accepted so that makes things a bit easier.
