Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Mannypon on June 11, 2013, 09:59:43 PM
Title: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Mannypon on June 11, 2013, 09:59:43 PM
It has gotten so bad that I'm actually contemplating whether or not publishers just want Nintendo out of the console race entirely. If you think about it, of course they would want a Sony and MS world since that's what they are currently living in. Everything will be streamlined to be developed for PC and the PSbone since they are all somewhat similar. 3rd parties always complain that they never get any success on Nintendo's hardware so maybe they have just given up supporting it entirely. Now the discussion of who's to blame for 3rd parties woes on Nintendo hardware is something best left for another thread but particularly with the WiiU, I think 3rd parties are to blame. Very few provided any support upon release or after. Ubisoft is the only company that put up a decent effort, everyone else released old "updates" or nothing at all. Some (EA and now SquareEnix) have gone and even sabotaged their own releases (Mass Effect 3 announced for WiiU and a trilogy for all others soon after, Dues Ex no longer WiiU exclusive)
I think its the market's focus on AAA release that has hurt Nintendo and 3rd parties on their hardware. Publishers seem to only be looking at AAA releases to which is too risky on Nintendo platforms, especially on one just released with a small install base. I don't see how these publishers can't from small groups to make A or AA games on a smaller budget and release them on the WiiU. There are absolutely no games coming out so if anything with any kind of effort was released, people might just go and buy it. People did buy a WiiU to play it, so give them things to play. They can even use these smaller budget releases to introduce new IPs at a lower risk. If they catch on and become established then there they go, they have themselves a new franchise. I honestly thought the Japanese developers would be at least giving the WiiU a shot as they often don't put out AAA games yet I don't see anything.
Something more than bad WiiU sales must be going on with these publishers and Nintendo. Games coming out now are games that should've been green lit around 2 years ago at the minimum. At that time, Nintendo was coming off the Wii which sold well and no one had any idea the WiiU would be struggling this bad at this point so what excuse did they have back then to not get something in development.
3rd parties always complain that their games don't sell well against Nintendo's but at the moment, they have no competition what so ever from Nintendo software as Nintendo isn't releasing much. This is the time for 3rd parties to make their money, not later on when every Nintendo fan has picked up the WiiU specifically for Nintendo's games. The market by then will only be for Nintendo games. I've always had a belief that Nintendo hardware is sold to Nintendo fanboys who only game Nintendo and hardcore gamers who love Nintendo games but also have one, if not more, (or a PC) of the competitors systems. With this setting, the Nintendo fanboys won't purchase non Nintendo games and the hardcore gamers will more than likely pick up multiplatform releases on the other guys systems as apposed to their WiiU.
How the hell can Nintendo fix that? Nintendo can only do so much, can only control themselves and they are struggling with that as it is.
Honestly, to answer my own thread title, I think Nintendo has spread themselves too thin between supporting the 3ds and the WiiU which it seems they have underestimated the difficulty of transitioning to the HD generation. Nintendo should get the brunt of the blame as this is their system and they should've had their situation on lock but 3rd party publishers have no one to blame but themselves.
For all you Game of Thrones fans, this situation reminds me of the Red Wedding and Nintendo is Robb Stark. Nintendo is in a vulnerable position and the publishers seem to be looking to take advantage of it in a negative way. You can even say EA are the Lannisters.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Nemo on June 11, 2013, 10:18:46 PM
Here's my theory...
2 years ago (or whenever), Nintendo approached publishers, developers, etc. and said "Hey, we're making a new system that'll be just as powerful as the PS3 and 360, but with no install base. How would you feel about making games for this system?" Nintendo probably held console specific features close to the chest, like the controller for as long as possible.
Most developers probably said "Oh. Ummm... good luck."
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: cubist on June 11, 2013, 10:27:53 PM
A debacle? It's a little early, don't you think?
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Mannypon on June 11, 2013, 10:36:21 PM
Well I consider the mass exodus of 3rd party support for the WiiU (even by Nintendo's standards in regards to their history with 3rd parties) to be a debacle.
As for that approach, even if it were true, why wouldn't 3rd parties stay the course and support it like the other twins? I don't think anything would've been any different had Nintendo released a system that was up to the PS4 in specs, I still believe they would've been shunned. I think the situation would be even worse if that was the case as the system would've been even more expensive thus even less sales than what we have now.
With the Wii, the excuse was that it was too weak and the architecture was too different. The WiiU comes out, and its still different architectural wise but now is strong enough to run the twins games and (I like to think, next gen games if properly speced down and effort put forth) and yet it still isn't getting the games. So obviously it isn't about the power of the system. Publishers just don't really want to have much to do with Nintendo, moreso now than ever before.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: lolmonade on June 11, 2013, 10:41:26 PM
They're both to blame.
Nintendo's to blame for not only trading too often on established gameplay experiences from their cash cow franchises only to dilute their brands, but failing to make a compelling case for the Wii U Gamepad other than off-TV Play.
3rd party developers are to blame because they set themselves up for failure by sending gimped versions of their products to the Wii U to die, and then using that as justification as to why they shouldn't bother developing anything for the system.
That being said, as someone who watched all the E3 conferences, it seems like the AAA developers mostly want to move-on to the PS4/Xbox One, and I couldn't help but feel like the Wii U game lineup (mostly) looks terribly antiquated already when lined-up with Sony & Microsoft's offerings. That doesn't bode well for 3rd party support on the Wii U, especially when developers stop supporting the PS3/Xbox 360.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on June 11, 2013, 10:45:30 PM
Is it that time to rehash this argument. Both are obviously to blame.
Nintendo has long had really restrictive practices with third parties and higher fees related to licensing. Nintendo was able to make it work because until the N64, they owned the gaming market and third parties were lining up to make games for their system. During the N64 and Gamecube eras, they held onto those practices because Nintendo games sold Nintendo consoles and they didn't feel they needed third parties.
They loosened the practice during the Wii period, but gamers that were interested in big third party games at picked up the other systems because of features like HD and traditional controls. So third party games suffered on the Wii. Now with the Wii U Nintendo has architecture that is not like a PC which means there will be more effort to port games and the install base is so low that publishers don't think they can recover the cost of porting games to the Wii U so they avoid it.
That's pretty much where Nintendo failed. Publishers believe it or not would like 1 system to bring games to. It would be lower cost and they wouldn't have to worry about missing a portion of potential buyers on systems that they don't have the resources to. Publishers have a bad taste in their mouths from previous periods and don't really have a problem avoiding Nintendo consoles if there is any reason to not make a Nintendo game. They have also been guilty of "trying out" games on Nintendo systems that have no chance of doing well. I remember Rockstar bringing Manhunt 2 to the Gamecube as a if this does well, maybe GTA will come over. Manhunt 2 was an awful game and panned universally in reviews. I get GTA is a mature game, but Manhunt 2 was over the top violence and turns off a lot of hardcore gamers not in their teens.
So there we are. Nintendo gave publishers a reason to move on and they did. Japanese don't admit mistakes and Nintendo still focuses on Japanese developers. I really think if Nintendo would apologize to Western developers and try to work with them on some projects they would come around to supporting the Wii U. Chances of that happening are pretty low though.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Adrock on June 11, 2013, 10:49:10 PM
Nintendo shouldn't be in as deep of a hole they're in, with many of their biggest titles slated for 2014. They should be in better shape even without help from third parties so they're not even pulling their weight entirely. Nintendo needs help from third parties to broaden the library and attract potential buyers to improve sales. Third parties want sales to improve before supporting Nintendo. It's going to have to start somewhere. It's both their fault.
If third parties want Nintendo to bend over backwards the way Sony and Microsoft do, they're out of their goddamn minds. It's a silly requirement. Console manufacturers have to shoulder losses to provide more powerful hardware so third parties can push better looking games in order to sell them? And they're still not meeting their goals after selling millions? What the **** is that?
Some of their excuses definitely need to be tempered. Don't tell me that I, as a Nintendo fan, only buy Nintendo games when you are providing me no alternatives. All the people who grew up on N64 and GCN are adults now. We can buy our own games and I can't pay you for something that doesn't exist. Pitching me your scraps (a game that came out months ago on other consoles) is not cutting it. Of course those are going to sell poorly.
What can Nintendo do? They've made many significant improvements in recent years though admittedly, they shouldn't have taken so long. They can stand to embrace good ideas other companies come up with. For example, the fact that Wii U doesn't have a hard disc drive even though Nintendo recommends it over the type of memory they included in the system is mind-bogglingly absurd.
It's not really important who's to blame. Rather who's going to fix it? Really, it has to be both sides coming together for the benefit of each other.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on June 11, 2013, 10:51:38 PM
As for that approach, even if it were true, why wouldn't 3rd parties stay the course and support it like the other twins? I don't think anything would've been any different had Nintendo released a system that was up to the PS4 in specs, I still believe they would've been shunned. I think the situation would be even worse if that was the case as the system would've been even more expensive thus even less sales than what we have now.
With the Wii, the excuse was that it was too weak and the architecture was too different. The WiiU comes out, and its still different architectural wise but now is strong enough to run the twins games and (I like to think, next gen games if properly speced down and effort put forth) and yet it still isn't getting the games. So obviously it isn't about the power of the system. Publishers just don't really want to have much to do with Nintendo, moreso now than ever before.
I think the problem is that there hasn't been any compelling third party games on a Nintendo system for a long time. If you like GTA, you have a PS3 or Xbox 360 and are probably going to buy a PS4 or Xbox 1 next generation. So the publisher won't feel like they aren't losing anything by not putting it on the Wii U. The gaming market has also expanded dramatically. The PS2, Gamecube, Xbox era sold something like 190 million consoles. This last generation has sold something like 250 million and the PS3 and Xbox 360 are still selling. Most people that like big third party games have at least 2 consoles. Does a Wii U version of GTA 5 gain you any significant sales? Or does it just take sales from the PS4/Xbox 1 for people that would prefer it on the Wii U?
You also have to remember that Sony and Microsoft have often used moneyhats to secure timed exclusives or exclusive content. Publishers expect the same from Nintendo and they won't play that game. Call it a bribe, whatever, but if Nintendo wants content it'll probably cost them something.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Mannypon on June 11, 2013, 11:04:33 PM
I totally agree with what everyone is saying as they all have truth in them. I always see Nintendo's console as the buddy console to accompany either a gaming PC or Sony/MS's console. This in turn will always hurt multiplatform releases which is why I think publishers should look to release some original smaller budget titles on the WiiU. Not everything has to have a sky high budget. Not everything has to look amazing. A good game will always be a good game regardless of how it looks. If indie publishers can make solid games with their budgets why can't a small studio make something between an indie project and a AAA project. I almost get the feel like there is no middle ground anymore. Its all indie releases and massive projects. I'm sure publishers should be able to at least break even on a game of that stature.
Also, where the hell are the Japanese developers? This E3 has come and gone and I feel as if I can't remember anything major from Japan outside of MGSV and FFXV. Are they doing anything over there or are their games so low key that they aren't getting any press or buzz. The WiiU should be the stomping grounds for these smaller Japanese developers but I think Nintendo's success with the 3ds is hurting them on the WiiU front in their homeland.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 12, 2013, 12:05:43 AM
I don't think that is it exactly.
I think 3rd parties are lazy...and have only so many resources. Honestly, developers probably only had real specifics about the Wii U a year before launch. The specs just kept on changing. I am sure the publishers knew of the new controller, but may not have had any clue how well it would work or such.
When the developers learned about the system, they already had there best teams working on projects. Rather than delay projects and split team resources, they just decided to outsource old game development to cheaper smaller outsourced developers. This would not have been a problem if they did original work doing this, or games that were releasing at the same time.
Now, there is a drought of games, but it is to be expected when development of new games takes so long. The only problem is 3rd parties had to make a decision put resources on the Wii U which has different architecture than the other systems....or focus on the new PS4 and Microsoft system.
There will be some developers that see the "blood in the water" and leave the Wii U die peacefully. Other developers will see this as an opportunity to make a quick buck by releasing anything on the system. Ubisoft with the Wii comes to mind.
Personally, I think it is still too early to see. There are some good games coming out. The problem is are they more compelling to play on the Wii U or just the Xbox 360 or PS3?
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Mannypon on June 12, 2013, 01:05:58 AM
Your last sentence is something I too want to keep an eye out for. Now that the WiiU has been out for a good year, developers have had more time to learn the system's ins and outs, and the kits have matured since pre release, I really want to see how multiplatform games stack up to the PS360 versions and the PSBone versions. I'm specifically looking at Watchdogs, Dues Ex, Ass Creed, Batman, and Splinter Cell. I really hope serious effort was put into those games to make them stand out compared to the current gen version and at least resemble a bit of the other next gen version.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Khushrenada on June 12, 2013, 01:06:33 AM
Well, so many people seem gung-ho about Sony now and getting a PS4 and are anti-Microsoft. Although I think part of that is because "hardcore" gamers were suddenly really worried that Sony would follow Microsoft's lead and clamp down on used games and require constant online prescence suddenly leaving Nintendo as the only company not following such policies and they couldn't live in such a world where Nintendo is the hardcore option so they are very happy they can avoid Nintendo and buy Sony instead.
Still, if the prevailing attitude holds, that means Sony would be number one this generation with Nintendo 2nd and MS a distant 3rd. I think in this case, developers would eventually have to start bringing some of these games to Nintendo because the prevailing consensus is that Microsoft is going to have an incredibly low userbase and everyone is writing them off. But people wrote off the PS3 and somehow that thing rebounded in the last few years although that might be because of the long console cycle we went through.
Anyways, ignoring possible userbase changes, if the Microsoft userbase is very low, then porting a game to Microsoft may not be worth it for developers anymore unless it is as easy as they claim or they may do it with the lockdown on used games since it probably seems a great way to keep from losing much profit on that system but if sales aren't there to help them break even or profit which didn't happen often last gen when they ported games to the two systems, then either the PS userbase will be so great to just keep it an exclusive or they'll have to try the Nintendo option that is much closer to the current graphic capabilities than last gen.
There was a lot of contraction in the games industry last gen and development costs are high. I think as long as Nintendo can stay close in the race or capture a large second percent, they may eventually get these titles more out of desperation by developers because they can't afford to keep ignoring the userbase than out of any sensible business plan on their part. If they revert back to GC marketshare, then this will be a debacle. If they can stay way ahead of Microsoft, they may be able to start seeing some relief in that regard. Of course, having that software already in the first place would help allieviate some of that pressure and provide less incentive for anyone to buy an Xbox or maybe even PS4. But they can't seem to ever get that benefit.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: azeke on June 12, 2013, 01:12:28 AM
Publishers believe it or not would like 1 system to bring games to. It would be lower cost and they wouldn't have to worry about missing a portion of potential buyers on systems that they don't have the resources to.
If that was their intention they dun goofed big time. Now so many of them have at the very least FOUR platforms (360, xbone, ps3, ps4) to target with three different architectures between them. Job well done, you made your life easier all right. That's if we don't count Wii U and PC, and quite a number of big games are also coming to either or even both of these platforms too.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Mannypon on June 12, 2013, 01:12:46 AM
Well Nintendo already has a leg up on Xbone in that MS's systems never really do well in Japan. Nintendo will just have to beat them out in Europe and US, a tall order but maybe it's possible if MS holds true to these new demands and consumers aren't the suckers we think them to be.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Evan_B on June 12, 2013, 01:36:41 AM
I swear, I post so infrequently on this board because all it is, is Nintendo doom and gloom.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: SixthAngel on June 12, 2013, 01:38:09 AM
Something more than bad WiiU sales must be going on with these publishers and Nintendo. Games coming out now are games that should've been green lit around 2 years ago at the minimum. At that time, Nintendo was coming off the Wii which sold well and no one had any idea the WiiU would be struggling this bad at this point so what excuse did they have back then to not get something in development.
This is the important point.
Games coming out for the next couple of years will have been greenlit before the consoles launched. Any lack of support has nothing to do with actual sales. Prelaunch momentum on developing titles is why PS3 got a lot of games.
This is about the business model of the big companies. They rely on their size and ability to put out high end graphics to draw in players. Developers dying from expenses is actually a positive for EA/Activision because they can use their financial muscle to simply push out or absorb the competition. Nintendo's whole philosophy and weaker hardware goes against what these companies want and how they do business. It isn't a coincidence that the two best ways to show graphics (fps and cinematic) are the big games they push out.
Despite the doom and gloom however, the U is still getting the biggest new 3rd party ip of the year, Watchdogs.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Mannypon on June 12, 2013, 01:45:58 AM
Sorry for the brash title, looking back at it, I can see how its a bit exaggerated but it helps in getting people into the thread lol.
I will have to disagree with Evan B's claim that this sight is all doom and gloom. I think this site is fairly level headed for being a strictly Nintendo site. We do have our resident grump in Ian as far as I know but he always brings positive points just in a slightly negative slant lol. We all love Ian though, no hate here. Even me with this thread, I know things aren't looking good at the moment but I do not share Ian's view that the WiiU will be in the discount bin this time next year. I think once the heavy hitters start to come out, it'll pick up steam. It won't be selling gangbusters but it'll do well enough I believe. Once there is a healthier landscape for developers, they'll come around and by coming around, I don't expect PS4Bone support.
Doom and Gloom is better suited for Neogaf for the most part lol.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Kytim89 on June 12, 2013, 01:49:10 AM
Several questions: First, can Microsoft cut the price of the XBone to $399.99 to match the price of the PS4 and still make a profit? There is no way that people will pay five hundred dollars with locked out used games and mandatory online systems. Secondly, if there is a fift dollar price difference between the PS4 and Wii U then this must imply that the PS4 is not that much more advanced than the Wii U and thus is easier to port between the two systems? Lastly, what influence would a Wii U price cut have towards its rivals?
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Mannypon on June 12, 2013, 01:56:12 AM
Let me take a jab at your questions.
1. Ignorance will sell the Xbone through its first year or 2 I think. People won't be the wiser. Gamers will know better but the masses will follow the labels. I've seen posts on Facebook on how amazing the Xbone is from my dudebro friends, smh.
2. From what I've read on Neogaf, I think the PS4 is a good bit stronger than the WiiU. Either Sony is losing money at that price, Nintendo is making money on theirs, or other things are shifting the price such as the Gamepad. Porting is a bit different simply by the fact that they share somewhat different architectures. They are similar in that their GPU's are built to do the grunt of the work and the CPUs have taken a backseat (from what I've read, don't quote me).
3. I think Nintendo will do a price cut near the launch of the other systems but I don't really see it having any affect as supply will be limited for the other 2 and the fanboys will probably pick them all up day one. Also, I think Sony and MS are eyeing each other as competition and have accepted Nintendo will be there regardless as the buddy system since they are often doing their own thing. I don't really think they look at Nintendo as a direct threat, especially with how things have gone for the WiiU so far.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: pokepal148 on June 12, 2013, 02:01:35 AM
the issue of third parties comes down to an old proverb: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink from it.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Kytim89 on June 12, 2013, 02:11:15 AM
Every console that has been released first and is cheapest to develop for is usually the most successful of its generation. Are there any exceptions?
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Oblivion on June 12, 2013, 02:19:42 AM
The Nintendo Wii was released last out of the three systems. The SNES was released after the Genesis. The Wii U is definitely not going to win this round.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: azeke on June 12, 2013, 02:27:55 AM
Every console that has been released first and is cheapest to develop for is usually the most successful of its generation. Are there any exceptions?
Wut. PS2 was notoriously hard to develop for and had little to no documentation. It took some studios many months to simply boot up the devkit not speaking of actually developing. First Xbox had tremendous documentation and support from the biggest software giant. Gamecube was also easier to develop on than on PS2. Overall ease of development have little to no effect on actual market. Once platform becomes popular you as a developer simply have no choice and WILL bend backwards and sideways if needs to be put your games on that platform.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Traveller on June 12, 2013, 05:35:25 AM
I don't get it. Nintendo should of been going hard after a port of KH3 and Metal Gear V. Plus all of the big games that are still coming to 360 and PS3.. Wii U could run these games easily.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on June 12, 2013, 07:31:06 AM
Publishers believe it or not would like 1 system to bring games to. It would be lower cost and they wouldn't have to worry about missing a portion of potential buyers on systems that they don't have the resources to.
If that was their intention they dun goofed big time. Now so many of them have at the very least FOUR platforms (360, xbone, ps3, ps4) to target with three different architectures between them. Job well done, you made your life easier all right. That's if we don't count Wii U and PC, and quite a number of big games are also coming to either or even both of these platforms too.
The PS3/360 are temporary support platforms until he new systems get their legs. They also have a great deal of tools available at this point in their lives to make porting really easy. PS4, Xbox 1, and PC have a very similar architecture and should be easier to port between the three of them.
There may never be a single console, and publishers will do what they feel makes them the most money. They probably prefer something like the PS2 generation if they can't get a unified system. In the PS2 generation the thought process was this. 1. Make a PS2 game since they own the market. 2. Let MS buy the game for xbox guaranteeing a profit. 3. Release niche game on the Gamecube where it's not going to be lost in the volumes of PS2 games.
That's the benefit the Wii U has. They'll get some great games that publishers are worried about stacking against GTA, Battlefield, Mass Effect , COD, Uncharted, etc. They just aren't going to get typically what are considered big guns.
Quote
Well, so many people seem gung-ho about Sony now and getting a PS4 and are anti-Microsoft. Although I think part of that is because "hardcore" gamers were suddenly really worried that Sony would follow Microsoft's lead and clamp down on used games and require constant online prescence suddenly leaving Nintendo as the only company not following such policies and they couldn't live in such a world where Nintendo is the hardcore option so they are very happy they can avoid Nintendo and buy Sony instead.
I think that is mainly this site. My buddy who has a PS3 and no Microsoft consoles is very excited about the Xbox 1. He said they are using 300,000 servers this gen vs. 15,000 servers for the 360. He said that Microsoft is likely to force developers to use dedicated servers and that the online experience will rock. He was willling to overlook the negatives for this. And looking at various online forums alot of people are excited about the games Microsoft showed. I think it still could turn into a fight between Sony and Microsoft. M$ also has the money to take significant losses to push consumers to this model if they don't jump in.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2013, 07:35:58 AM
The best thing Nintendo has done is support indie developers. With Wii U's major third party community being a damn ghost town, there's an entire untapped market of Nintendo fans eager for new games. That lack of competiton from major publishers should draw even more indie developers to Wii U as long as Nintendo encourages them.
First, can Microsoft cut the price of the XBone to $399.99 to match the price of the PS4 and still make a profit?
Microsoft is likely not making a profit at $499 (nor Sony at $399). The price of One and PS4 is a lot closer when you consider that One comes with Kinect and PS4 doesn't come with PS Eye. Microsoft is banking on Kinect to be a difference maker and it can be for many people though others, like myself, really don't want a camera facing their living space 24/7.
Quote
Secondly, if there is a fift dollar price difference between the PS4 and Wii U then this must imply that the PS4 is not that much more advanced than the Wii U and thus is easier to port between the two systems?
There is, but it's no where near Wii and PS3. Porting should be possible due to scalability, but third parties are going to have to work for it... and they probably won't. Insano brought up before that Nintendo should port Unreal Engine 4 to Wii U themselves since Epic won't. That would be worth the trouble. If it's a barrier for developers, make it not one.
I swear, I post so infrequently on this board because all it is, is Nintendo doom and gloom.
Then contribute. Create new topics, foster different discussions
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: ShyGuy on June 12, 2013, 08:59:53 AM
Here's what I think: we saw HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars worth of game costs on display at the conferences over the last couple days. I don't think that a large portion of these publishers are going to make their money back since they are putting so much cash into development. Do you really think a dozen shooters and half a dozen racing games are all going to sell millions and millions apiece? 2014-2015 will probably be a blood bath of studio closures and cut backs.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2013, 09:25:25 AM
That's why supporting indie developers is in Nintendo's best interest. Those developers are bringing game ideas to the table that the major publishers would never dream of looking at and they're doing so for a fraction of the budget these shooters and racers have. If Nintendo helps these developers out when they're first starting out, they'll likely always support Nintendo in the long run even if they bring their games over to competing platforms. And that's what we want. It's not about exclusives since those are mostly first party these days; it's about getting everything else that other consoles get.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Evan_B on June 12, 2013, 10:59:49 AM
Here's what I think: we saw HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars worth of game costs on display at the conferences over the last couple days. I don't think that a large portion of these publishers are going to make their money back since they are putting so much cash into development. Do you really think a dozen shooters and half a dozen racing games are all going to sell millions and millions apiece? 2014-2015 will probably be a blood bath of studio closures and cut backs.
Yeah. I'm sure people will choose their favorites and whatnot, but right now, the shooter is on its way out, and I think the multiplayer RPG experience is what many developers are attempting to push. But with the way things have gone these two years prior, things are certainly looking a bit sticky for these developers that think they can shove the same **** down gamers' throats.
Or not. I mean, there are people out there who seem genuinely excited to get an xBox One.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 12, 2013, 02:27:57 PM
I think EA has been very unprofessional and I don't really think the Wii U has truly been given a fair shot. But I ultimately blame Nintendo for completely ignoring where the industry is at.
Last gen the industry wanted to make multiplatform games and Nintendo fucked that all up by releasing glorified last gen hardware that would prohibit ports of PC/PS3/X360 releases. Well they just DID IT AGAIN. The Wii U is glorified last gen hardware that will prohibit ports of PC/PS4/XB1 releases. "Well they could share development with the PS360." Those are OLD ASS systems on their way out. No third party considers those consoles to be their future. So they're going to learn the ins and outs of the Wii U so they include multiplatform releases for the year or so that it actually works into the plans? No. No sane company would bother putting the time and money into that. Some of them did a token effort and the Wii U didn't sell so hot at launch so they gave up because it was never going to be a longterm relationship anyway. They don't want to have to make Wii U exclusive games and they cannot include the Wii U in multiplatform development. It is of no use to them.
It is also worth nothing that these third parties make core games for core gamers. Nintendo's casual image on the Wii effectively scared that audience away. Third parties therefore assume that the very audience for their games will not buy a Nintendo console so it is pointless to support it.
Last gen Nintendo basically told the historical videogame market to take a hike. "We don't need you core gamers or third parties because we've got the casual buck." Now the fad is over for the casuals and Nintendo is asking us core gamers and third parties to come back and no one wants to come on board until Nintendo shows that things will be different this time. We're ALL being cautious and the system is selling like **** because we're all so afraid of being the first to jump in the pool. No core gamers wants to buy a casual console and no third party wants to release core games on a casual console and lose money.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2013, 02:52:34 PM
No sane company would develop a game that's still considered a failure even after selling over five million copies. Wait, they do that. Seems like no third party has a goddamn clue what they're doing.
Nintendo is right around where consoles should have been if Sony and Microsoft didn't leapfrog into the HD era. It sucks for Nintendo now, but it's absurd to expect a company to take a major loss just to be competitive in hardware. For someone who keeps bringing up the good ol' days of the SNES, you keep ignoring that this is not how anyone used to do things 20 years ago. Once the industry started that trend, all these companies started going out of business. Is Nintendo the crazy one here?
I'm not convinced third parties are struggling with PS3/360 level hardware. Only Nintendo needed to launch a new console. It's obvious Microsoft is moving to One so they can try to **** consumers in the ass.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: nickmitch on June 12, 2013, 03:05:41 PM
Forgive me if anyone already said this, but: How can you say The Wii U's state is Publishers' fault? The success of the system isn't their responsibility. It's clearly Nintendo's fault. They didn't launch the system with the "it" game, they didn't sell that enough hardware, it's all on Nintendo.
Did EA act like an ass? Yes. But then again, the opportunity cost to spite Nintendo isn't enough to make EA swallow their pride, so again that's on Nintendo. Was the Rayman delay complete douchebaggery? Sure. Would it have "saved" the system? Probably not. Nintendo counted on others to keep the releases steady when they were already proven unreliable. So, bad on Nintendo.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: the asylum on June 12, 2013, 03:36:13 PM
Now that it's abundantly clear that the casual crowd and their money isn't carrying over from the Wii, think we'll finally get a console that will have competitive hardware power with the other two next gen? The controller gimmick only got the Wii so far. Yeah, it made a lot of money, but is was awash in shovelware. Big studios wouldn't even consider it.
The best way to get a company's attention is with their bottom lines. Hopefully Nintendo's "Saturn" won't lead to their "Dreamcast."
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Agent-X- on June 12, 2013, 04:24:24 PM
I've been convinced that the Wii U will be fine. I bought it because I've been confident that it would at least be as good as the GameCube--I figure the GameCube was the bottoming out point.
Now I'm not so confident anymore. I have been disenchanted with Nintendo since year 2 of the Nintendo Wii, but I've been patient with them because of games like Skyward Sword and Brawl. It had to have been about four years ago when Nintendo began selling us this notion that the casual gaming community was going to be their area of concentration and that we hardcore gamers would continue to be served the same great quality content just without all the buzz and hype. Then we began to see an increasing number of products coming out of Nintendo that held virtually no appeal to the core audience of Nintendo fans. Meanwhile, the bulk of third party support shifted to shovelware titles that more closely fit with Nintendo's concentration.
Now that it is evident that the casual audience is not picking up the Wii U, we are seeing third party publishers cut support. Today's news that Ubisoft is scaling back support for the console isn't so much a nail in the coffin because it is an effect rather than a cause. What bit of support is slated for the Wii U going into 2014 had better remain concrete in the release schedule or even Nintendo may have too much of a challenge getting their core audience to buy the console.
No one has ever bought Nintendo on the sole basis that only Nintendo published software would be available to them. I have loved the Mario, Zelda, and Donkey Kong games since the 80's, and I wouldn't buy a Wii U knowing that only Nintendo is backing the system. The fear and the cold hard reality is that Nintendo may, eventually, have to decide how much money to sink into their own products with such a limited install base.
One further thought is this: When do we start to seriously consider the 3DS as a competitor to the Wii U? Not only is it a fully viable Nintendo platform, but it also competes for the same development resources. It's not like the handheld simply plays mid-90's quality games like the GBA/DS. The time, energy, and money going into that platform is likely the biggest reason Nintendo didn't give the Wii U a proper launch.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Khushrenada on June 12, 2013, 04:38:59 PM
One thing that occured to me and I forgot to ask about it was how about Rock Band.
It was mentioned earlier in this thread how people often buy two consoles, Nintendo and one of the other two, and will usually buy a third party game on one of the other consoles rather than Nintendo's to get more of the benefits out of it.
But I was curious as to how Rock Band did on sales because that was a game with wide appeal for everyone and was actually ported across all platforms but there's no denying that it was easier to use on PS3 or XBox 360 especially when it cam to downloading more songs and increasing one's music library playlist.
In the end, how did that series break down? Would anyone have some pretty accurate numbers on that?
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: ShyGuy on June 12, 2013, 04:58:01 PM
I figured it out. CONSUMERS ARE TO BLAME.
Donkey Kong Country Returns sold over 4 million. Prime 3 sold over 1.5 million
Super Mario 3D Land sold over 8 million edit: Mario Galaxy 2 sold over 10 million, so I guess the point doesn't apply here.
Wii Party sold almost 9 million
Mario Kart Wii sold about 30 FREAKING MILLION. Fzero GX sold I think around 400k.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 12, 2013, 05:20:27 PM
The thing is that the Wii U sales really are terrible and have been since day one and are worse than a typical new console. When third parties are saying it isn't selling well enough, they're not wrong. This isn't some outright lie, it really is not selling well.
How would PS360 multiplatform games ever sell on the Wii U anyway? So we got Batman at launch. That's nice but it was already on the other systems that have been out for YEARS and that the target audience of the game already owns. Only someone who was solely a Wii owner last gen would have any reason to buy a Wii U to play Batman. But perhaps people would buy the Wii U for an exclusive and then buy some multiplatform titles. Whose responsibility was it to have system selling exclusives? Nintendo. If their own first party games sold the Wii U then those multiplatform third party games would have had a better chance to sell.
Nintendo is trying to sell a system on a very small amount of games that don't really sell the Wii U as a new generation (it should be seen as beyond the PS360; not as a contemporary and thus something that will obsolete within a year) and the new games they've announced don't even really push the expensive controller that drives the price up of the whole package and is supposedly the whole reason to buy this thing in the first place. I don't have any confidence in that plan as a consumer and I sure as hell wouldn't invest money into that as a publisher.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Razorkid on June 12, 2013, 10:19:13 PM
The PS4 and Xbox One have zero install base, are more expensive than WiiU, and require a lot of things in order to fully take advantage of the systems services (DRM, Multiplayer pay walls, etc.)
Is it Nintendo's job to fund every 3rd party (not exclusive, but) multiplatform game? That's unfeasible from a business sense and silly as the other platforms aren't shelling out money just to get the same game made on their system. I don't get it. Why is Nintendo responsible for getting publishers to make games for a system that will be guaranteed to have an install base of at least tens of millions because of Nintendo's franchises alone? Why is Nintendo blamed when they have a capable system that can ported to? Outside of last gen, their hasn't been a generation where ports weren't done because the system couldn't handle it.
The rise of development costs last gen killed the 3rd party exclusive and it is generally expected that a game from any third party not co-funded or published by one of the big 3 will be released on at least 2-3 competing platforms. Why is Nintendo being ignored?
I'm not worried because the WiiU is looking more and more like the 3DS as time goes by. The first party games are arriving which will spur sales. 3rd party support will be closely behind. And I think the people who think that the PS4 and Xbox One are gonna fly off the shelves past this holiday are gonna be in for a rude awakening (3rd party publishers especially).
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on June 13, 2013, 10:52:02 AM
Is it Nintendo's job to fund every 3rd party (not exclusive, but) multiplatform game? That's unfeasible from a business sense and silly as the other platforms aren't shelling out money just to get the same game made on their system. I don't get it. Why is Nintendo responsible for getting publishers to make games for a system that will be guaranteed to have an install base of at least tens of millions because of Nintendo's franchises alone?
Nintendo doesn't have a userbase of tens of millions now. Most games have a shelf life of 6 months to a year. That is the period that publishers are going to use to see if they are recovering their cost. Also, the wii was a unique experience. Gamecube had all the Mario/Nintendo games and sold poorly. There is concern that Nintendo games alone won't make wii u a good seller.
Nobody is remotely saying that Nintendo fund every third party game. But at the same time they have to be realistic that it's not an easy system to make money on right now because the install base is low and there aren't the tools available to make quick programming and allow quick ports.
I guess what makes too much sense to me is to get ea back on board. I'd tell them they can make Madden 25 and FIFA 14 license free if they bring Battlefield 4 and Mass Effect to the Wii U.
Madden is huge in America. There are people that just play sport games in the US. They were considered casual gamers before the Wii changed that meaning. And dare I say, a 2nd Wii U Madden might be the superior version as the launch versions on the ps4/xbox1 arelikely to have some issues . I know people here aren't that big on Madden, but I think having the best version could be a system seller.
Fifa's the same as Madden, but you replace US with Europe/Japan.
Then by getting Battlefield and Mass Effect you've gotten ea to port the frostbite engine and develop tools to make porting easier in the future.
It is a win win and won't have to be replicated until the next system. These games don't compete with Nintendo games and they wouldn't cost much if anything to get.
I feel this is the summary. Ea supported Nintendo in a big way at launch. They lost money. They wanted Nintendo to work with them and help them find their market. Nintendo in typical fashion says that's not our problem, we don't need you and then they slam the door. Sure ea has since acted like a child, but it's long overdue that Nintendo give someone in America some power to work with western developers and stop pretending like they are just going to come back on their own.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Razorkid on June 13, 2013, 09:56:58 PM
Is it Nintendo's job to fund every 3rd party (not exclusive, but) multiplatform game? That's unfeasible from a business sense and silly as the other platforms aren't shelling out money just to get the same game made on their system. I don't get it. Why is Nintendo responsible for getting publishers to make games for a system that will be guaranteed to have an install base of at least tens of millions because of Nintendo's franchises alone?
Nintendo doesn't have a userbase of tens of millions now. Most games have a shelf life of 6 months to a year. That is the period that publishers are going to use to see if they are recovering their cost. Also, the wii was a unique experience. Gamecube had all the Mario/Nintendo games and sold poorly. There is concern that Nintendo games alone won't make wii u a good seller.
Nobody is remotely saying that Nintendo fund every third party game. But at the same time they have to be realistic that it's not an easy system to make money on right now because the install base is low and there aren't the tools available to make quick programming and allow quick ports.
I guess what makes too much sense to me is to get ea back on board. I'd tell them they can make Madden 25 and FIFA 14 license free if they bring Battlefield 4 and Mass Effect to the Wii U.
Madden is huge in America. There are people that just play sport games in the US. They were considered casual gamers before the Wii changed that meaning. And dare I say, a 2nd Wii U Madden might be the superior version as the launch versions on the ps4/xbox1 arelikely to have some issues . I know people here aren't that big on Madden, but I think having the best version could be a system seller.
Fifa's the same as Madden, but you replace US with Europe/Japan.
Then by getting Battlefield and Mass Effect you've gotten ea to port the frostbite engine and develop tools to make porting easier in the future.
It is a win win and won't have to be replicated until the next system. These games don't compete with Nintendo games and they wouldn't cost much if anything to get.
I feel this is the summary. Ea supported Nintendo in a big way at launch. They lost money. They wanted Nintendo to work with them and help them find their market. Nintendo in typical fashion says that's not our problem, we don't need you and then they slam the door. Sure ea has since acted like a child, but it's long overdue that Nintendo give someone in America some power to work with western developers and stop pretending like they are just going to come back on their own.
I agree that WiiU doesn't have a user base of tens of millions now, but off the strength of Nintendo's own franchises, such a number will be obtained within a reasonable time frame. That still doesn't explain why 2 brand new consoles with, again, zero userbase gets better support than WiiU based off that argument.
EA put out a 4 games for the WiiU - 2 ports of their sports franchise that did nothing to push the system or it's features and a port of the last game in an RPG trilogy that came out 7 months earlier for $60 while simultaneously releasing the entire trilogy in one package on inferior competing hardware for the same price. Then, 4 quiet months later, we get a (superior) port of a racing game that came out 6 months ago on competing systems upon the WiiU's release. That doesn't say to me they tried. That says they made token support by making shoddy games or releasing also rans half a year later and expecting gamers to gobble it up like starved paupers. The Wii era EA tried and failed sometimes, but was very successful most of the time. They immediately brought new ip ideas to take advantage of the controller and never failed to port their most popular franchises when feasible (crappy spin-offs notwithstanding). The WiiU era EA has done nothing to make a WiiU owner, let alone a non-owner to want to buy the games they have made for WiiU thus far. I agree that they are needed, especially here in the west, but they get no sympathy from me. Garbage in, garbage out.
I do agree with you that NOA needs to be given some free reign to court western 3rd party developers and publishers. Whether they like it or not, ignoring western developers in this day and age on consoles is a guarantee that you will not be as successful as your competitors worldwide. I still think its silly for Nintendo to bank roll every 3rd party multiplatform game, but I do think they should be more willing to make deals with certain ones, or at least with certain big big games.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on June 14, 2013, 02:30:53 PM
I agree that WiiU doesn't have a user base of tens of millions now, but off the strength of Nintendo's own franchises, such a number will be obtained within a reasonable time frame. That still doesn't explain why 2 brand new consoles with, again, zero userbase gets better support than WiiU based off that argument.
EA put out a 4 games for the WiiU -
Most analysts disagree with you on Wii U sales. Wii Sports/Wii Fit captivated the market and made the Wii a large commercial success. Nintendoland hasn't captivated the market and most analysts have the Wii U pegged as a Gamecube with worse third party support. According to Wikipedia, the Gamecube sold 22 million units over it's life. Did it not have Nintendo's franchises to get it to tens of millions of units in a reasonable time? Maybe Wii U will make a comeback with price drops and better games, but the Wii U is selling scary bad right now and has lost a significant amount of third party support.
I'm not going to get into a big argument about EA because it's been hashed before. $60 ports are the price of buying a new console. Mass Effect was probably the best Wii U game at launch (at least according to Metacritic) and having NFS, Madden, and Fifa on par with other consoles was great support to me. Could EA have done more? Yeah, they could of but that's not really EA's style. Preferences vary, but I thought this was much better support than EA gave the Wii at the end of its life. I think Ian sums it well. EA support is be expected and may not be a system seller. But the lack of EA games is a big deal, especially to single console owners. They are the biggest publisher and they do make good games. I know many here don't like their games, but they sell boatloats so they clearly have fans.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Razorkid on June 14, 2013, 05:13:10 PM
I would argue that the gaming audience (especially for Nintendo consoles) is several times larger than it was over 10 years ago during the GameCube's life cycle. I'm not saying everyone who bought the Wii will pick up a WiiU, just that they were exposed to Nintendo franchises and some of that awareness and interest will bleed over to the new console. I can't forsee the WiiU selling that little over its life span.
I agre that the WiiU need third parties like EA to bring a variety of experiences to the console that Nintendo simply does not do. I love EA games and own quite a few from last generation across different platforms. My argument was that they put in very little effort for the launch of a new console and then expected their games to sell like gangbusters. I don't care if some people experienced those ports for the first time on WiiU, I would garner that a lot of people had an opportunity to experience it elsewhere long before the system came out. I get the console isn't flying off the shelves, but I don't know. It's disingenuous to blame a console for the lack of sales for games you put little effort in. If they were so good, they would sell to more people, especially when every piece of software stands out at the beginning.
I'm really, really curious to see how the new consoles will sell post holiday season. I really don't believe we are gonna see hardware numbers like we did last gen. I'm not trying to project the WiiU's sales on the other two, but I believe it's gonna take even longer for these systems (including WiiU) to hit critical mass.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Evan_B on June 14, 2013, 08:31:33 PM
I seriously fail to see why third parties continue to support platforms that cause them to lose money and even go bankrupt, but then I realize why, and I understand Nintendo's viewpoint.
The gamer population may be bigger now than it was back around the GameCube, but the reason high budget games don't make profit is because gaming is STILL a niche market- and in order to support this concept that it is widely accessible and an integral part of home entertainment, the big three have marketed their consoles as 'entertainment devices' rather than gaming consoles. That's the only way they'll survive in the market- as augmented home entertainment devices.
Gamers in general, and even members of this board, feel that they are entitled to great experiences and high-budget games, but this mindset is directly opposite to the sort of market that the gaming industry needs in order to thrive. Well, maybe not the 'great experiences' thing, but certainly the high budget stuff. This 'PS4 is a high end PC' bullshit is exactly what it sounds like- fluff. Marketing mumbo jumbo. All of the next-gen console are no great leap in comparison to the last generation. This is because the last generation was stupid and unproductive for just about everyone.
The truth is, Nintendo just has the biggest battle to fight, since they screwed themselves over the most last generation. The reason the Wii U isn't selling is because Nintendo hasn't marketed it well at all, and the way they need to market it as a core audience machine- because the casual sell is a great way to make money but it ultimately proves futile in the long run.
Third parties aren't developing for Wii U because they're busy blowing their load on the other next-gen consoles- but when they don't sell either, they'll return once Nintendo has a stronger install base- which it will, because it's six months ahea of everyone else. Nintendo needs Bayonetta, X, and other mature IPs to push their system- that's what they need to push to prove they have a core console- fortunately, they have a device that can help them get back in touch with the core- Miiverse. If they see what their user base wants, maybe they'll get the friggin' message and understand what they need to sell a core console. That's their goal- even if the Wii U sells modestly, they'll have ideas of what they need to develop and push. Because if they continue to push high-budget development like Sony and Microsoft did, they'll screw themselves over just like they did.
What they need to do is push mature titles and promote their close relationship with the consumer- Miiverse, Nintendo Directs, the like. That is the point- they are in touch with the small group of people that call themselves gamers, because that's the group who will consistently buy consoles and boycott ridiculous ideas like the xBox One. Okay, I'm done.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Kytim89 on June 14, 2013, 08:48:30 PM
It might be a good idea for Nintendo to ask the fans directly through Miiverse what third party games they want on the Wii U and then use their "cash on hand" to get those games onto the system even if they have to devote some of their own resources to do it.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 14, 2013, 09:03:31 PM
That would be a terrible idea. By the time we know about a game it's too late to get a day-and-date Wii U release, and without that the sales will be terrible. If Nintendo's going to buy support, which I don't think they should do as it's a slippery slope that could put them in an even worse situation, they can't rely on the fans to decide what they're going to do.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: broodwars on June 14, 2013, 09:18:02 PM
Only Nintendo fans could view the death of an entire industry as a positive thing. Sure, I harp on Nintendo for the Wii U's failure, but that's because I want them to become proactive for ****ing once and actually ADAPT to the needs of their audience and the fact that it's not 1985 anymore. But some of you would "see our entire industry burn if Nintendo could be king of the ashes", to steal a line from Varys of Game of Thrones.
Nintendo could have made moves when they designed the Wii U and marketed it at launch to entice more and better 3rd party development. They chose not to, and now they have to deal with the consequences. And I hate to break it to you folks, but if the major players in this industry went under, everyone would transition to PC or mobile development on iOS LONG before they lined-up under Nintendo. The conventional view would be that dedicated gaming platforms are no longer viable. Even major players like Square-Enix right now are looking at shifting towards major iOS development. So by all means, wish for every other company to go bankrupt trying to cater to a gaming market that's not you. If you get your wish, this hobby is dead, so I hope you're happy with that.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Kytim89 on June 14, 2013, 09:26:07 PM
Only Nintendo fans could view the death of an entire industry as a positive thing. Sure, I harp on Nintendo for the Wii U's failure, but that's because I want them to become proactive for ****ing once and actually ADAPT to the needs of their audience and the fact that it's not 1985 anymore. But some of you would "see our entire industry burn if Nintendo could be king of the ashes", to steal a line from Varys of Game of Thrones.
Nintendo could have made moves when they designed the Wii U and marketed it at launch to entice more and better 3rd party development. They chose not to, and now they have to deal with the consequences. And I hate to break it to you folks, but if the major players in this industry went under, everyone would transition to PC or mobile development on iOS LONG before they lined-up under Nintendo. The conventional view would be that dedicated gaming platforms are no longer viable. Even major players like Square-Enix right now are looking at shifting towards major iOS development. So by all means, wish for every other company to go bankrupt trying to cater to a gaming market that's not you. If you get your wish, this hobby is dead, so I hope you're happy with that.
I believe you are delusional in the sense that you think that a Nintendo loyalist such as me want the entire gaming industry to burn for not supporting Nintendo. This is not the case for me. What has happened in the last ten years is that development costs have skyrocket to epic proportions. This is not helped by the graphical leap that Sony and Microsoft created back in 2006. Granted that Nintendo does have asinine way the fact that they choose a cheaper route for their gaming empire shows responsibility.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Evan_B on June 14, 2013, 09:35:05 PM
I'd rather see the industry crash and burn because of the pants-on-head retarded way the industry has handled itself than see it go any further- which is even more pants on head retarded.
And it's not 'relying', insano, it's 'listening to fan feedback'. No smart business would wait on hand and knee for their customers- that wasn't what I was implying, at all.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Adrock on June 14, 2013, 09:50:23 PM
I'm pretty sure insano was responding to kytim.
It's obvious Nintendo is using Miiverse for feedback. If enough people ask for Third Party Game X or Third Party Series Y, it shows some demand and Nintendo is culling those responses. It will be to late to get a simultaneous release with other platforms, but it does give them a target. They can try to work with that third party for the next installment.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: MagicCow64 on June 14, 2013, 09:52:00 PM
Eh, I think the crash is happening no matter what, and while it might produce some upside for Nintendo, it still wouldn't leave them as anything other than the last living outlet of an obsolete system.
Film projection is dying out rapidly. I don't think this is a good thing, but it's happening anyway.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: pokepal148 on June 14, 2013, 11:22:58 PM
Eh, I think the crash is happening no matter what, and while it might produce some upside for Nintendo, it still wouldn't leave them as anything other than the last living outlet of an obsolete system.
Depends, if nintendo survives with enough influence to reform the industry to their liking they have a chance.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Mannypon on June 15, 2013, 12:24:42 AM
I think Nintendo is in the best position out of the main 3 to survive a collapse. Unlike the other 2, they don't overly spend their money in game production, they are definitely more conservative. They have, I would argue, the most loyal fans. Also, they have their handheld which its market is in a healthier state, especially in Japan. They'll survive. They might not come out the same, might have to downsize, but they'll still have people interested in their products I'd like to think. I know I would still be interested in AC, Pokémon, Zelda, Advanced wars, etc, etc, etc.....
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 15, 2013, 01:06:58 AM
The funny thing is Nintendo's in the best shape to survive a collapse for the same reasons they're in the weak position they find themselves in now. Their very conservative business practices, such as taking a profit on hardware and relying mainly on their big, marketable franchises, combined with their relative self-reliance, not depending on their (nonexistent) relationships with other companies, are what give them that.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on June 15, 2013, 09:21:48 AM
I seriously fail to see why third parties continue to support platforms that cause them to lose money and even go bankrupt, but then I realize why, and I understand Nintendo's viewpoint.
It's not that simple. Video game development is expensive and the market is constantly changing. Someone may make a good shooter on PS3/Xbox 360 and have good success. 2 years later there are different competitors and with the market flooded and the sequel might fail. A good example is IOS. It was new and many games had great success. Now the market is flooded with and it's hard to get people to notice your game.
I'd venture to say that most of these developers that go bankrupt are supporting the platforms that they profit from the most. Sadly, they probably distribute all those profits when they have them and then declare bankruptcy when they have a large failure or several small failures because they don't want to inject the cash into the business to save it. Most of these companies then re-org and come back from bankruptcy or are bought out by companies such as EA. Most developers keep cash on hand really small and aren't set up for failures, which at some point it is inevitable that you miss the market with a game or two.
Quote
If Nintendo's going to buy support, which I don't think they should do as it's a slippery slope that could put them in an even worse situation
You think third parties can support worse than now? Worse case scenario you buy a few games and then you don't get the sequels because Nintendo isn't willing to support them and you're back where you are now. I think EA would absolutely support the Wii U with games if they thought they could make money. If you helped them make money, I think they would absolutely continue that support. They may be a company run by jerks, but money talks and they aren't going to walk away from it. They just don't think they can get it with the Wii U.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Evan_B on June 15, 2013, 11:04:46 AM
It's not like anyone wants games from EA anyway.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Oblivion on June 15, 2013, 12:25:23 PM
You must be joking. Star Wars Battlefront 3 and Mirror's Edge say hello. I've been wanting to former since the PS2 days and the latter since 2008.
Battlefront 3 will be a shadow of its former self, or worse. The Star Wars franchise is beyond dead until we watch its feeble resurrection by the hands of a terrible director and Disney, whose 'mature' titles have been nothing but half-baked ideas. And if you think EA isn't going to superimpose their bogus business practices on it, you're kidding yourself.
As for Mirror's Edge, I can't sympathize since I never ayed the first, but from what I've seen and what I know, first person platforming is never executed well and it didn't look like the original really broke that mold.
I seriously have no love for EA. Their hayday has long since past, and they really do stand behind shoddy business practices and advocations, like their treatment of homosexuality in their games.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Oblivion on June 15, 2013, 02:32:53 PM
What business practices do you speak of?
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Evan_B on June 15, 2013, 02:51:24 PM
Their lovely day one DLC concepts, micro transactions, and DRM ideas. They may not have done it first, but they've done it the most offensively and least-customer friendly.
And, you know, how the quality of every developer that has been acquired by them has suffered. That's just an added bonus, though. Again, maybe it's a coincidence, but it seems awfully strange.
I just have no respect for a company that doesn't seriously question their state of business after being voted as the worst company in america for two years- and yes, that's a horribly skewed poll, but the way they respond to it is, 'look at how well our digital services are doing(because there's no alternative) and look at how we support homosexuality (when it's used for cheap fan service and as a meat shield for critique).' As a company designed to entertain in the medium of video games, I can say their antics don't entertain me at all.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 17, 2013, 01:49:14 PM
I don't want the industry to crash and burn, but I don't want it to become sterile or for practices I don't like like DRM and microtransactions to catch on. I need it to move in the direction that avoids such things and sometimes a bit of suffering is the only way to someone will learn.
Same with Nintendo. I'd like Nintendo to just pull their heads out of their asses on their own but that hasn't happened in the 17 years that have passed since they shoved them up there in the first place with the N64. So realistically Nintendo has to suffer to learn. The Wii U being a huge flop thus far is exactly the sort of thing that could do that. If in a situation where they have to get their act together or die, hopefully they'll get their act together.
So the Xbone being a huge flop would be GREAT for the industry IF it scared them away from DRM and always-online checks and locked out used games and all sorts of horrible things. Of course they could also learn the wrong lesson and just assume that consoles aren't worth pursuing. That's the risk we run.
I see two extremes of either the industry going in a horrible anti-consumer direction where games are sterile and generic because the risk of failure is too great to do anything interesting or the whole console model just dying outright. Realistically either one is the same to me. What I want is something in between.
The problem with game budgets is that it's kind of hard to offer us something for a few years and then try to scale back. At the very least the PS360 level of production values is the lowest common denominator merely because it would be a ridiculous hard sell to ask customers to go backwards from that. The PS4 and Xbone could both flop while the old systems continue to sell well (and the Wii U picks up steam) and then the market has dictated that that is our ceiling for the time being. I never felt the other guys needed a new console, just Nintendo.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Evan_B on June 17, 2013, 04:06:27 PM
You know, Ian, that's a great point, an something I agree with. No one can deny Nintendo needs to seriously rework their development cycle in regards to console launches- it's especially insulting since they dropped support of the Wii in its last two years of life and STILL had nothing to show come Wii U launch- then again, they were trying to desperately save a dying handheld instead.
But I must admit, as neat as the PS4 looks, it doesn't seem to be a substantial improvement over its predecessor on just about any way, and I hope consumers see that too.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Agent-X- on June 17, 2013, 04:17:23 PM
I already feel like the industry went the direction of sterile games where doing anything interesting is too great of a risk. Indie developers have caught on like wild fire because they are the ones making really interesting games. From 1995 to around 2002, there was an explosion of innovation because of PC gaming and an acceptance of 3D-polygonal graphics. The market successfully offered games for everyone whether it was Sim Farm, bass fishing, deer hunting, or running amok committing crimes ala GTA. The 360 and PS3 were the first consoles from MS and Sony that I ever actually owned, and my 360 experience was so plain that I had to sell it and pick up a PS3 just to get a decent baseball game. I truly, truly missed out on the Xbox and the PS2. I think it's night and day the difference in developer values, and if someone had shown me the future of these platforms I'd have not bought them. That's right. I would have just been a happy Wii owner who continued to play games on PC.
The indie development revolution is rekindling some of that lost spirit, and I guess it took the mobile platform to bring it back. Kind of sad. Aside from those indie offerings, I wouldn't bat an eye if the industry died a hard death and had to be rebooted. There's way too much money being funneled at making the same types of games (shooters, mostly), and I don't see any truly new features or enhanced levels of world detail. It's not that I can't think of any games that really pushed the envelope in some way, but when I think back on them, they're all just shooters in one form or another. Even the best RPGs were sequels, shooters, or both.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on June 17, 2013, 04:47:58 PM
You know, Ian, that's a great point, an something I agree with. No one can deny Nintendo needs to seriously rework their development cycle in regards to console launches- it's especially insulting since they dropped support of the Wii in its last two years of life and STILL had nothing to show come Wii U launch- then again, they were trying to desperately save a dying handheld instead.
Miyamoto said that their woes were related to HD development. http://mynintendonews.com/2013/06/12/miyamoto-blames-wii-u-launch-software-delays-on-nintendos-leap-to-next-gen/ (http://mynintendonews.com/2013/06/12/miyamoto-blames-wii-u-launch-software-delays-on-nintendos-leap-to-next-gen/)
It makes sense, I remember at the start of the PS3, Xbox 360 phase hearing about how much more resources it took to develop HD games. I don't expect the PS4, Xbox One to be an issue for third party developers since they've already been used to developing 1080p games. It will probably make it easier because they'll have more system resources available and won't have to spend so much time optimizing to get the same level of performance.
Not that it absolves Nintendo of responsibility. They should have known that bigger teams were needed, and started transitioning earlier because as Miyamoto points out, you can't just double or triple development team sizes today and expect to be able double or triple output overnight. I was surprised that the 3DS is listed, but they have to draw the 3DS screen twice to get the 3D image which adds a significant amount of pixels.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Agent-X- on June 18, 2013, 01:05:18 PM
But it doesn't really make THAT much sense, because the move to HD is really about art assets. Generally, art assets start out in HD. Numerous PS2 games were given remastered HD ports BECAUSE the HD assets were readily available. Is it really that challenging to move to HD?
I respect Miyamoto tremendously, and I assume there is some other level of complexity at the heart of their HD development issues. I'm not going to rule out that development for the 3DS impacted development for the Wii U launch. Nintendo is really supporting two different game platforms with the same type of products now, and therefore development resources are limited.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 18, 2013, 02:16:14 PM
But it doesn't really make THAT much sense, because the move to HD is really about art assets. Generally, art assets start out in HD. Numerous PS2 games were given remastered HD ports BECAUSE the HD assets were readily available. Is it really that challenging to move to HD?
Last gen moved in a much more Western direction while the Japanese third parties seemed to really struggle with HD. Perhaps Nintendo is struggling the same way and there is something about Japanese development practices that makes this harder than it in theory needs to be?
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on June 18, 2013, 02:24:20 PM
But it doesn't really make THAT much sense, because the move to HD is really about art assets. Generally, art assets start out in HD. Numerous PS2 games were given remastered HD ports BECAUSE the HD assets were readily available. Is it really that challenging to move to HD?
I'm obviously not into developing but that's not my understanding. I remember the big third party players indicating the extreme cost increase and teams having to be increased substantially. http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_costs (http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_costs)
This has a quote from Ubisoft where Wii games cost $8-9 million to develop and PS3/Xbox360 games cost $18-28 million to develop. Here is a quote from EA, "Development is typically a third to a fourth as much for a Wii game then it is for a PS3 or an Xbox 360 game. That is really a function of the capacity of the hardware, and the fact that it is not a high-definition gaming box, so we're producing less art than for high-definition games."
It also wouldn't make sense to me that a PS2 game would be made in HD then downgraded for release. I always thought the HD collections were PS2 games with high anti aliasing on them. They looked better than the PS2 versions, but no-one would confuse the quality with a PS3 release as the textures and environments were just not up to par.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Agent-X- on June 18, 2013, 03:27:30 PM
But it doesn't really make THAT much sense, because the move to HD is really about art assets. Generally, art assets start out in HD. Numerous PS2 games were given remastered HD ports BECAUSE the HD assets were readily available. Is it really that challenging to move to HD?
I'm obviously not into developing but that's not my understanding. I remember the big third party players indicating the extreme cost increase and teams having to be increased substantially. http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_costs (http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_costs)
This has a quote from Ubisoft where Wii games cost $8-9 million to develop and PS3/Xbox360 games cost $18-28 million to develop. Here is a quote from EA, "Development is typically a third to a fourth as much for a Wii game then it is for a PS3 or an Xbox 360 game. That is really a function of the capacity of the hardware, and the fact that it is not a high-definition gaming box, so we're producing less art than for high-definition games."
It also wouldn't make sense to me that a PS2 game would be made in HD then downgraded for release. I always thought the HD collections were PS2 games with high anti aliasing on them. They looked better than the PS2 versions, but no-one would confuse the quality with a PS3 release as the textures and environments were just not up to par.
From my understanding, the art assets typically start out in HD and are downgraded as needed. It's considered easier. For a common use example, most cameras take photos at high-resolution. What do we do when we go to share our photos? We scale them down. This practice has been around for decades in western game development, especially with PC game development. The costs of HD game development could be due to more than just HD art assets. My understanding of the process is that there are now live actors for motion-capturing and voice acting, loads more 3D modeling (high-polygon models), fully orchestrated soundtracks, and in general game engine costs are soaring due to the high complexity of graphics hardware. I believe all of this creates a need for many more people to be involved.
Now, here's some counterpoint to what I'm claiming about art assets. I don't believe Nintendo's Gamecube games have HD art assets. Some of the wall textures in Super Mario Sunshine were pretty stale and blurry--for some reason, this compels me to believe the texture was designed as a low-resolution fill in. Super Mario Sunshine pushed the GameCube's texture buffers with draw distances not found in many games at that time. I'm also going to call out Wind Waker, whose cel-shaded graphics and amazing draw distances were very unique to that game. There is an HD port on the way for Wind Waker, but I believe this is much more than a port and a simple bump in resolution as the textures from the original probably aren't fit for anything above standard definition.
The HD remastered PS2 games look alright. They aren't on par with original PS3 content, but I figure this is a combination of low-detail assets and game engines not optimized to make use of updated filters and shaders. Bear in mind that low resolution textures would have to be stretched to a higher resolution to fit upscaled 3D models, and I don't think this would be passable by today's standards. I've played the God of War remakes, and they looked decent. The engines are outdated, but the visual assets pass the eye test.
I think you guys are right, though, about western developers vs Japanese developers. It's probably the case that Nintendo is not expanding to fit the needs of HD development. However, I look at the games they are creating, and I don't see that much of a difference from Wii to Wii U for Nintendo's main offerings. It doesn't take a whole extra year to make that Super Mario Bros level art in HD, so....
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: MagicCow64 on June 18, 2013, 06:06:22 PM
I think the Japanese vs. Western thing is a good point. In my book a lot of the best looking Western current gen games have pretty damned unambitious gameplay. It's spackling a lot of high-def assets onto very limited environments with minimal interactivity. Not everything, obviously, but I feel like the difficulty Nintendo and other Japanese devs have had stems from a deeper design philosophy thing. It's probably not just a matter of turning on the HD asset firehose. There's got to be a place to aim it and a reason. To my eyes Pikmin 3 is the best looking thing Nintendo has showed so far, and I think that's because that's the game where it's going to matter the most. With the design of Super Mario 3D World what it is, would crazy HD graphics influence the game's reception that much? It would still be a lot of cubes and grass.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 18, 2013, 06:45:00 PM
To my eyes Pikmin 3 is the best looking thing Nintendo has showed so far, and I think that's because that's the game where it's going to matter the most. With the design of Super Mario 3D World what it is, would crazy HD graphics influence the game's reception that much? It would still be a lot of cubes and grass.
Looking at from a creative perspective I would think that the styles of games one would be instinctively drawn towards developing would be ones that would clearly benefit from the new capabilities of the platform. The improved graphics capability of the Wii U would be very beneficial in depicting nature and having multiple characters on screen at once so Pikmin 3 is an obvious and natural fit. X comes across as the sort of thing Monolith Soft would have wanted to make for years but couldn't until the hardware allowed it as Xenoblade strived to have large countrysides and the Wii U would allow for them push that further. Super Mario 3D World comes across as more generic and commercial to me and I think a big part of that is the design of the game does not seem to require the Wii U to achieve. Realistically it would have been done on the Gamecube or maybe even the N64. Super Mario 64 seemed really ambitious partially because it was so clear it could not have been done on the SNES and with 3D being a new thing to play with it's natural that the dev team would be drawn to making a game about exploring a 3D world.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Kytim89 on June 19, 2013, 02:15:31 AM
I am going to go out on a limb and say that based on what has transpired thus far it appears that Sony could recapture their throne and be the number one game company of this generation. This is why Nintendo is going to have to be aggressive in order to maintain whatever edge they have over Sony, especially in Japan. The ball is really in Sony's court at this point and it will be interesting to see how Nintendo and Microsoft react to Sony and the Playstation 4.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: JTurner82 on June 19, 2013, 11:46:11 AM
I am going to go out on a limb and say that based on what has transpired thus far it appears that Sony could recapture their throne and be the number one game company of this generation. This is why Nintendo is going to have to be aggressive in order to maintain whatever edge they have over Sony, especially in Japan. The ball is really in Sony's court at this point and it will be interesting to see how Nintendo and Microsoft react to Sony and the Playstation 4.
Sony may be formidable, but I still say Nintendo has a chance of succeeding.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Agent-X- on June 19, 2013, 12:22:00 PM
Nintendo's idea of succeeding is one that can coexist with Sony being #1 overall. All that matters to Nintendo is that they sell enough software to keep their profit margin steady.
Kind of hard to see that happening unless console sales spike, though.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: shingi_70 on June 19, 2013, 12:40:52 PM
I am going to go out on a limb and say that based on what has transpired thus far it appears that Sony could recapture their throne and be the number one game company of this generation. This is why Nintendo is going to have to be aggressive in order to maintain whatever edge they have over Sony, especially in Japan. The ball is really in Sony's court at this point and it will be interesting to see how Nintendo and Microsoft react to Sony and the Playstation 4.
Sony may be formidable, but I still say Nintendo has a chance of succeeding.
Not without a price cut, and more software (which they showed at E3). Right now The Wii U's price is too close too the PS4 to be even reccomend it to others, unless they want something that's focus is being family friendy.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Kytim89 on June 19, 2013, 01:32:31 PM
I am going to go out on a limb and say that based on what has transpired thus far it appears that Sony could recapture their throne and be the number one game company of this generation. This is why Nintendo is going to have to be aggressive in order to maintain whatever edge they have over Sony, especially in Japan. The ball is really in Sony's court at this point and it will be interesting to see how Nintendo and Microsoft react to Sony and the Playstation 4.
Sony may be formidable, but I still say Nintendo has a chance of succeeding.
Not without a price cut, and more software (which they showed at E3). Right now The Wii U's price is too close too the PS4 to be even reccomend it to others, unless they want something that's focus is being family friendy.
The problem with the PS4 versus the Wii U is that for an extra fifty dollars you can purchase a system that can churn out quality first party titles and a robust third party library over the Wii U. I am having this issue as well. I can pay fifty dollars more and have better third party support. However, I am loyal to Nintendo, so I will stick with the Wii U.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Oblivion on June 22, 2013, 09:54:14 PM
You could... buy both?
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: NeoStar9X on June 22, 2013, 11:19:34 PM
In the end I feel the blame is on Nintendo. They set the direction and general tone for the system. They're the ones that launched the system without a clear message. That didn't listen to the concerns regarding the naming of the system. Didn't have the games ready in a timely fashion after having how many years to prepare having seen the troubles others went through!?
However I think a big issue is that Nintendo simply isn't cultivating a large enough audience that will play third party games. The action games, shooters, etc. Just look at their holiday offerings. Two platformers that slant either to the 2D or are outright 2D. That might sell hardware but it's going to be to people that then turn around and buy the next Call of Duty. Or show Activision that there might be a market in large enough numbers for a Wii U version of Destiny.
Iwata can say all he wants that they are working to build momentum for the Wii U. However the announcement of Donkey Kong Country Returns: Tropical Freeze sends a very specific message and it's not a message that is going to be attractive to third parties when they look at what type of audience Nintendo is trying to build. This is on Nintendo because they don't put out their smaller brand titles anymore. Where is Wave Race and F-Zero? Where is 1080? Why was the Excite series and Battalion Wars series handled the way they were? Whey did they not follow up with another Metroid Prime when it was clear FPS were going to be the genre of the generation after Metroid Prime 3? Where is Star Fox?
These are the game series they have that could have helped cultivate an audience that would have been open to buying third party titles in larger numbers. They did either nothing with them since the GameCube or they just tossed them out there on the Wii in such a way you have to question why they even bothered. I'm sure third parties are seeing this as well. They might not have brought in the money Wii Fit would have but you have to keep your customer base happy and maintained as to not make them ripe for the picking by other companies. I don't think they ever gave any thought to this. Unless they felt it wasn't needed and they really thought all the people they sold to would stick with them so they could afford to toss aside long time customers.
This is why I can't take what Iwata is saying seriously. Why I don't think things will change around for the better with the Wii U when it comes to games I want to play and experiences I want to have.
Title: Re: The WiiU debacle: Is Nintendo or publishers to blame.
Post by: Kytim89 on June 23, 2013, 01:44:19 AM
Nintendo's biggest issue right now is that they underestimated the time it takes to make a HD game. This is why Nintendo needs to have a "less is more" approach to developing games for the Wii U. What this means is les first party games but of better quality, and ones that can be released on time at a steady rate. This way they can focus their resources on quality and let third parties fill in the gap. If third parties can fill in the gap they do not have to compete with Nintendo for success.
This also means no more casual games for the Wii U. Let Microsoft and the smartphones have this portion of the industry and focus exclusively on hardcore gamers. Nintendo needs to turn all of its western allies onto their dormant franchises. I think that bring back and revitalizing series like Metroid and Star Fox would go a long way in proving that Nintendo intends to embrace the core gamer.
Nintendo also needs to bring more western developers under their wing and Mercury Steam and Ninja Theory would be two great examples of potential candidates.
