Gaming Forums => General Gaming => Topic started by: TJ Spyke on January 04, 2013, 01:36:09 PM
Title: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: TJ Spyke on January 04, 2013, 01:36:09 PM
Yesterday Sony patented a technology that would allow them to block used games from being played. Essentially every disc would have a RF tag. When the system checks the disc, if the tag doesn't match (i.e. it's linked to another system), the disc will not play. In the patent application, Sony says game creators receive no compensation from sales of used games. New reports out today say Sony themselves might not use the tech, but would put it in the system and let developers choose if they want to use it for their games.
I saw a note on IGN's Daily Fix which correctly pointed out that this would also stop you from sharing games with friends.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: ShyGuy on January 04, 2013, 01:55:02 PM
Tied to a console? this makes me lolololololololol
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: MrPhishfood on January 04, 2013, 05:22:14 PM
I think it makes sense. If you follow the business side of the games industry then you'll know the alternative to this technology is even worse.
Online passes, DLC, tacked on multiplayer, higher priced games... and maybe a few more I haven't thought of.
Generally more money is being spent making and marketing games yet we are still paying the same for them and that's just this generation. I don't even want to know how bad its going to get if the next Xbox and PS4 are going to have much higher specs.
If they include this tech we may see more "complete" games in the future.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Ceric on January 04, 2013, 05:28:14 PM
I be fine with this if it would allow me to fully install the game to my system after calling home and registering it and if I do get a second hand copy it allows me to pay an appropriate price aka not full price to unlock it.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 04, 2013, 05:43:43 PM
This makes no sense whatsoever. If developers aren't garnering enough sales to justify the cost of development then they can do three things. They can push for legislation which would prevent retailers from taking advantage of certain loop holes which have facilitated the second-hand market, they can make more cost effective games, or they can make better games. In no way should the choices of consumers be constricted. Consumers who buy a game and, therefore, own that item should have the right to sell that item. I don't understand why game developers feel their industry should be treated differently from every other. If I buy a physical product I own that item. Whether or not I decide to share, give away or sell that item is my business.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: TJ Spyke on January 04, 2013, 05:50:32 PM
Pix, if you give or sell the game, you would be fine. It would be the person getting the game from you who would be screwed.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 04, 2013, 05:53:51 PM
Pix, if you give or sell the game, you would be fine. It would be the person getting the game from you who would be screwed.
haha. Very sardonic. ;)
Removing people's ability to play pre-owned games for all intents and purposes removes people's ability to sell their games.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Ian Sane on January 04, 2013, 07:55:47 PM
To do this the system would have to be always online. I can't see any other way to do it.
Dumb move because you're not going to gain any sales from the consumer on this. Meanwhile Nintendo's system has no such feature so it's just giving a positive bullet point to the competition. "Doesn't play used games" is not a selling point. I think all three companies have to go in on this at once or whoever doesn't can play it up as being user friendly. As the industry switches to digital distribution, used sales won't exist anymore anyway. So attacking it at this point is stupid.
The worst thing about this for the consumer is that games aren't in stores forever. Yeah Gamestop will have recent games available used for $5 off but what about something like an Atlus game that is only in stores for a brief time? So if you missed out on an obscure game when it was brand new you can NEVER BUY IT EVER!! There are gamers that never fall for Gamestop's stupid $5 off **** but will buy used games for titles they missed out on that are no longer available in stores. Those gamers are fucked and they're just trying to get a copy of the game PERIOD, not save five bucks.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: EasyCure on January 04, 2013, 08:16:24 PM
Pix, if you give or sell the game, you would be fine. It would be the person getting the game from you who would be screwed.
haha. Very sardonic. ;)
Removing people's ability to play pre-owned games for all intents and purposes removes people's ability to sell their games.
Ever heard the phrase "there's a sucker born every minute"? ;)
As far as legislation goes, I don't think it will help the game industry. (In the US at least) Legistlators still find it illegal for me to make any sort of back-up copy of software I've purchased (and yes, I understand the piracy issue...) and have recently stated that transferring software between devices is just as illegal. So even though I decided to buy a few physical albums recently, instead of pirate them, the fact that I'm ripping it to my mp3 player is still illegal. Basically, any from what I've read there is a very gray area regarding the digital copies of movies that come with dvd/blu-rays I've bought.. so yeah, I wouldn't trust legislation in these issues. They're stupid ;)
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: TJ Spyke on January 04, 2013, 08:19:44 PM
Actually, it's legal to make back-up copies (hell, game consoles like the PS3 and 360 even let you rip your CDs to their hard drives), you just can't distribute them to other people.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: EasyCure on January 05, 2013, 12:21:52 AM
Actually, it's legal to make back-up copies (hell, game consoles like the PS3 and 360 even let you rip your CDs to their hard drives), you just can't distribute them to other people.
not according to something I recently read but am too lazy to find (c'mon wikipedia lite, get to work)
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: NWR_insanolord on January 05, 2013, 12:26:39 AM
Making a backup for your own personal use is considered fair use under US Copyright Law. However, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act made breaking encryption on copyrighted material a crime, so depending on how you make your backup it may still be illegal.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Shorty McNostril on January 05, 2013, 12:40:18 AM
Game rentals just flew out the window.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Luigi Dude on January 05, 2013, 06:25:14 AM
If Sony does this they might as well not even release the PS4 in Japan. The used game market is insanely huge over there and a major part of the industry. A lot of it has to do with the fact you can't rent games in Japan so buying used is the cheapest way to play as many games as possible.
To go through with this would be literal suicide for them in Japan.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Adrock on January 05, 2013, 07:16:09 AM
Japanese 3rd parties probably know better than to mess with this over there (less so everywhere else). That would doom the PSFour. There were rumors that Microsoft was considering somehow blocking second hand games as well so that makes Durango even less of an option in Japan if true. This could be good news for Nintendo.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Spak-Spang on January 05, 2013, 08:50:56 PM
many patients are never used....and Sony could always allow developers to opt out. I actually like the idea somebody had about unlocking a used game purchase...then developers could force Gamestops hand to lower used game prices.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: UncleBob on January 05, 2013, 09:01:25 PM
many patients are never used....and Sony could always allow developers to opt out. I actually like the idea somebody had about unlocking a used game purchase...then developers could force Gamestops hand to lower used game prices.
From a consumer's point of view, it doesn't do any good if Gamestop lowers their prices but we have to make up the difference by paying someone else. In fact, it just makes things more complicated.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Kytim89 on January 05, 2013, 09:46:12 PM
Locking out used games would be suicidal on Sony's part if they were to implement such as system on their next system. They would try to do something like this with the intent to bring in more revenue for themselves and third parties, but it would backfire and destroy their holdings in the industry. If Sony really wanted to make more money by taking a bigger cut from their games from retailers would be to modify their store to be similar to the eShop and offer their games day-and-date with the retail version. Sony could then offer $39.99 for the digital version of Uncharted 4, which would be pure profit for them, while Game Stop gets to sell a used copy for $55.00.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: broodwars on January 05, 2013, 09:55:52 PM
If Sony really wanted to make more money by taking a bigger cut from their games from retailers would be to modify their store to be similar to the eShop and offer their games day-and-date with the retail version.
Sony already does this, and they were doing it long before Nintendo did. However, with the exception of Vita games (which tend to be $5 less digital), their prices are usually the same as (if not worse, due to retail price drops) than the retail prices.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: nickmitch on January 05, 2013, 09:57:21 PM
I hate the term "pure profit."
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Kytim89 on January 05, 2013, 10:03:34 PM
Instead of Sony having to split its pizza with retailers they could have the whole thing for themselves.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: nickmitch on January 05, 2013, 11:33:24 PM
Except they can't have their pizza and eat it too? There's no such thing as pure profit. Everything about making a sale costs at least SOME money. Sure, what you described would have a high contribution margin ratio, since there's essentially no variable cost, but it's still not gonna be "pure profit."
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: TJ Spyke on January 05, 2013, 11:54:46 PM
... They can push for legislation which would prevent retailers from taking advantage of certain loop holes which have facilitated the second-hand market ... In no way should the choices of consumers be constricted. Consumers who buy a game and, therefore, own that item should have the right to sell that item. ... Whether or not I decide to share, give away or sell that item is my business.
I'll finish the thread but I like to now in Pix's post that the bolded statement is directly conflicting with the statements afterwards. Not to mention that the government should need to regulate how a game console goes about its business. Their is a enough competition that hopefully the Market will tell the companies otherwise. (This is a front line issue that directly effects the buyer unlike say workers rights.)
Edit: Alright finished reading. I hate to say this but this is a when not an if. One day we will live in a world were when we buy a game we can't resell it easily. Now in the EU you will be able to sell it by my understanding because Digital Property has been determined to be the same thing as Physical Property, Here is an Extra Credits on it. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/digital-resale) The rest of the world we may not be so lucky and the mechanism could still be hidden and relatively difficult while still holding to the intent of the law.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: TJ Spyke on January 07, 2013, 11:11:25 AM
The EU ruling said consumers have a right to sell digital games, but that doesn't mean companies have to provide a way for consumers to do it.
I don't think Pix contradicted himself. He said they CAN push for legislation, but doesn't think they SHOULD.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Ceric on January 07, 2013, 11:47:03 AM
The EU ruling said consumers have a right to sell digital games, but that doesn't mean companies have to provide a way for consumers to do it.
I don't think Pix contradicted himself. He said they CAN push for legislation, but doesn't think they SHOULD.
If you push for legislation than you want it inacted and the end goal would be a rule that governs these types of interactions.
If trends continue in EU rulings then its pretty safe to assume that as soon as someone challenges a copy for not allowing them to sell their property according to the law that the EU will pass a clarifying ruling that copies have to provide the means to do this.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: TJ Spyke on January 07, 2013, 11:49:31 AM
Pix just said they could enact legislation, not that they should enact it.
I don't agree with the EU ruling, the EU is anti-business. If I was Valve or something and the EU tried to force me to let people sell the games, I would give them the finger and just not sell games in countries where the EU has authority.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 07, 2013, 11:56:31 AM
I'll finish the thread but I like to now in Pix's post that the bolded statement is directly conflicting with the statements afterwards.
I'm not sure if I quite understand what you're getting at. Are you asking whether or not I intended for those statements to be in conflict?
In any case, TJ Spyke is correct. I wasn't making a normative statement, I was simply saying that they can try to influence parliament in the same way as every other industry and interest group (Although, I don't expect they'll get very far).
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Ceric on January 07, 2013, 12:01:52 PM
Pix just said they could enact legislation, not that they should enact it.
I don't agree with the EU ruling, the EU is anti-business. If I was Valve or something and the EU tried to force me to let people sell the games, I would give them the finger and just not sell games in countries where the EU has authority.
The EU is, by what I can tell, pro personal rights. I understand thats a little weird from here were the Citizenship is a second class citizen to Businesses and lobbyist but it doesn't make the ruling any more invalid. Treating digital goods as property is logical simply because we treat them as property. Plus the EU is to large of a market for a game producer to just not sell in. The areas are the EU, North America, and Japan. Everything else is lumped into expanding markets. That's to big of a pie slice to be left on the table.
I'll finish the thread but I like to now in Pix's post that the bolded statement is directly conflicting with the statements afterwards.
I'm not sure if I quite understand what you're getting at. Are you asking whether or not I intended for those statements to be in conflict?
In any case, TJ Spyke is correct. I wasn't making a normative statement, I was simply saying that they can try to influence parliament in the same way as every other industry and interest group (Although, I don't expect they'll get very far).
You stated that, "In No way should the choices of consumers be constricted." The effect of legislation that would be satisfactory to the gaming industry that wants this addressed would constrict consumer choices. Its not an option if it can never achieve the goal.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: TJ Spyke on January 07, 2013, 12:11:23 PM
A company can still do great without the EU, especially large ones like Valve, Microsoft, Apple. They could survive without it. And what about MMORPGs? The EU (who are anti-business) will probably eventually say it's illegal for companies to ever shut down the servers because then consumers can't play the games they bought.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Ceric on January 07, 2013, 01:02:09 PM
A company can still do great without the EU, especially large ones like Valve, Microsoft, Apple. They could survive without it. And what about MMORPGs? The EU (who are anti-business) will probably eventually say it's illegal for companies to ever shut down the servers because then consumers can't play the games they bought.
I think Microsoft would disagree with you or they would have just pulled out of that market with the EU trying to bleed them dry with a double standard. Also take WoW, the biggest MMO, as an example. While technically you buy the Client if you look at the Eula you only rent the characters. So Technically Blizzard could only leave the authentication servers up, which they use for all of Battle.net anyway, because you couldn't get into the world w/ no characters, which remember you only rent. Law followed and they didn't have to keep the costly instance and world servers.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Ian Sane on January 07, 2013, 01:15:11 PM
I just thought of something extra funny about this. Sony patented it BUT if they're the only ones doing it then it's just a big con for their system. They need everyone on board but by patenting it, no one else can do it unless they pay Sony.
So they're saying to MS and Nintendo "pay us to not have the consumer advantage over us of being able to play used games". HA!
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 07, 2013, 01:32:39 PM
You stated that, "In No way should the choices of consumers be constricted." The effect of legislation that would be satisfactory to the gaming industry that wants this addressed would constrict consumer choices. Its not an option if it can never achieve the goal.
I guess I could have made that clearer.
When I stated that "In No way should the choices of consumers be constricted", I was actually referring to Sony's patent and not my example of legislation. In fact, the three examples I gave are actions which I would deem to be more valid approaches to the problem. I'm all for lobbying legislatures, creating more elastic pricing structures and making better games (the last one I said jokingly).
Influencing and lobbying parliament is a completely valid approach (although I do have my concerns about the rights of consumers in all of this). What is not valid, in my opinion, is any attempt to restrict the use of legally obtained copies of games.
For the record, I'm personally against any attempt to restrict the use of pre-owned games as I feel they serve an important function in the market.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Ceric on January 07, 2013, 01:59:24 PM
From a pure capitalist perspective is Sony thinks that not allowing used games will get them more money then Capitalism would agree. If the Invisible Hand of the Market, the countering force in Captialism, decides to slap them out of existence they made the wrong call. From practical experience though I rarely see the Hand ever being that powerful.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Louieturkey on January 07, 2013, 04:31:40 PM
I think they are trying to bring consoles in line with the PC. Like with Steam or Origin, people buy retail copies and then register on one of those clients and then can't really sell the game because the CD key is linked to your account.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: alegoicoe on January 07, 2013, 05:15:37 PM
Sony can suck it, bunch of greedy bastards ;)
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 07, 2013, 05:28:11 PM
From a pure capitalist perspective is Sony thinks that not allowing used games will get them more money then Capitalism would agree. If the Invisible Hand of the Market, the countering force in Captialism, decides to slap them out of existence they made the wrong call. From practical experience though I rarely see the Hand ever being that powerful.
The Hand slapped Divx out of existence about a dozen years ago.
Title: Re: Sony patents tech to block used games
Post by: alegoicoe on January 08, 2013, 02:10:44 AM
