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Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: tendoboy1984 on September 30, 2012, 08:49:38 PM
Title: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on September 30, 2012, 08:49:38 PM
Now that we know the Wii U is launching at $299 (Basic Set) and $349 (Deluxe Set), do you think those prices are a good value, considering all the extra stuff you get for $349?
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Oblivion on September 30, 2012, 09:23:35 PM
Couldn't we talk about this in the Wii U thread?
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: nickmitch on September 30, 2012, 09:39:13 PM
No, because that would make sense.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 30, 2012, 09:48:31 PM
Need to hijack this thread before tendoboy1984 does...
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 30, 2012, 09:49:20 PM
The PS3 was $299 at launch, I think it was overpriced.
Why don't they just make the whole plane out if the black box?
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on September 30, 2012, 09:51:34 PM
Why don't they just make the whole plane out if the black box?
Because the plane would be too heavy and wouldn't fly. Believe it or not, I didn't google that or search Wikipedia. I heard it from an episode of The Fairly Odd Parents and everything on that show is true.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Kytim89 on September 30, 2012, 10:56:47 PM
What I see Nintendo doing is keeping the basic white model of the Wii U that is $299.99 on the market long enough for the casuals to buy as many as they are willing to buy, then Nintendo will cease production of that model and create a white version of the black pro Wii U once production costs are lowered enough to justify it. What we would have then is two colors of the same console. Once production costs are lowered further then we will get a price cut of say $299.99 for the Wii U that is currently $349.99 in America. This would also be done in antipation of Sony and Microsoft's next home consoles, which I fighure will be in the $349.99 to $399.99 range.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: ShyGuy on September 30, 2012, 10:57:46 PM
Yup it is.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Kytim89 on September 30, 2012, 11:03:11 PM
Is the Wii U too expensive? Depends on how well the Wii U can go toe-to-toe with the PS4 and Xbox 720. The weak CPU that the Wii U both has me worried and slight not surprised. The Wii U is also supposedly more powerful than the PS3, and it is stll selling pretty high, then no, the wii U is not expensive. I am more worried about actually aquiring one than the price for it.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on September 30, 2012, 11:06:13 PM
Is the Wii U too expensive? Depends on how well the Wii U can go toe-to-toe with the PS4 and Xbox 720. The weak CPU that the Wii U both has me worried and slight not surprised. The Wii U is also supposedly more powerful than the PS3, and it is stll selling pretty high, then no, the wii U is not expensive. I am more worried about actually aquiring one than the price for it.
I'm not talking about how expensive it is. I'm talking about the total value, what you get for your money. $300-$400 is the standard launch price for consoles, and the Wii U fits nicely within that range ($300 and $349).
I think the Deluxe Set is a great value. For $349, you get the console and controller, a game, a bunch of extra add-ons, and a subscription to "Nintendo Network Premium" (which is basically like a rewards program).
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 30, 2012, 11:47:08 PM
I think the price is actually quite fair for what you are getting. Specially the $350.00 priced system...it is the real bargain, because you get a nice game and extra memory...it is the unit to get...and actually Nintendo should have never announced or had a cheaper one.
That being said...I see Nintendo keeping the two system units throughout the life of the system...however, Nintendo will continue to bump the internal storage. And keep the price points similar. Next year or 2014 is when I see the next revision of the new system becoming available launching at the same time as the new systems.
I see the white system being launched with the extra memory...and then the Black model will get a nice bump to like 64GB flash drive and probably a different back in game. It would probably be good to move Nintendo Land over to the White system as well.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 01, 2012, 12:50:12 AM
I don't see Nintendo bumping up the internal storage. Why would they? They're already taking the stance that you can use an SD Card or external hard disk drive if you want/need more storage space. Nintendo could and probably should have bumped the internal memory of the Wii and chose not to. It's probably not worth the trouble, for Nintendo anyway.
By the way, I think both sets are fairly priced. For my money, only the Deluxe set is "worth it." That extra $50 goes a long way.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 01, 2012, 01:01:24 AM
I don't see Nintendo bumping up the internal storage. Why would they?
Because in a few years time the capacity and price of flash memory will have improved to the point that for whatever it costs Nintendo now to add the 8gb or 32gb internal storage of the Wii U, they could increase it to 64gb or 128gb or whatever and it wouldn't cost anymore for them to do that.
Just like how it wouldn't have cost them any extra to have revised the Wii's internal storage up from 512mb to 1gb or 2gb or whatever, even though they never actually did that. I believe what they did do with the Wii later in its life was they did actually go with larger flash capacity, but they disabled it to knock it down to 512mb even though they didn't need to.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 01, 2012, 02:10:09 AM
I don't see Nintendo bumping up the internal storage. Why would they?
Because in a few years time the capacity and price of flash memory will have improved to the point that for whatever it costs Nintendo now to add the 8gb or 32gb internal storage of the Wii U, they could increase it to 64gb or 128gb or whatever and it wouldn't cost anymore for them to do that.
Just like how it wouldn't have cost them any extra to have revised the Wii's internal storage up from 512mb to 1gb or 2gb or whatever, even though they never actually did that. I believe what they did do with the Wii later in its life was they did actually go with larger flash capacity, but they disabled it to knock it down to 512mb even though they didn't need to.
Exactly, and add to that the fact that the new systems will be coming out...and they will definitely have more memory than Nintendo will have. If you up your memory for storage you take that weapon away during comparisons. It just makes sense to do that...or to drop the price..however Nintendo really doesn't want to drop the price.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on October 01, 2012, 02:18:30 AM
As was said on RFN last week, whether or not you feel the Wii U is worth the price is really an individual matter. Of course we can look at statistics and say that the 'market' accepted or rejected the hardware at a certain price point, but really the important question is whether or not you feel it's worth the cost. The value you place on a console can be affected by any number of things: the amount you earn, the other systems that you own, the games already announced, the region you're in etc.
For me at this current point the Wii U is not worth the price. I don't own a PS3 or 360, so comparing the Wii U to those systems and factoring in the software librarys and the price, I'd be more inclined to purchase one of those before I purchase a Wii U. That's not to say that I'll never purchase a Wii U, but there's simply not enough enticing things at launch (for me) to make it worth my money.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: MrPhishfood on October 01, 2012, 03:10:37 AM
Well if you break it down to its individual components then no. That's just junk.
As a whole what its worth is more ambiguous and comes down to personal choice. People were willing to shell out big bucks for the PS3 at launch because it was new technology. The Wii U uses existing technology to let us play in new and interesting ways and I'm willing to pay for the premium bundle.
Its not an easy call to make because there isn't anything out there that offers you a similar experience including whatever unique games Nintendo releases in the future. Just trust your intuition.
To me its worth it. I have a gaming PC, Wii, 3DS, 360, PS3 and PSP. I'm pretty bored of standard buttons controls and motion controls from the current generation are mostly empty promises. The Wii U offers new ways to play, that's what draws me in as an early adopter. I don't particularly care about HD first party games because Nintendo generally makes excellent games regardless of hardware.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 01, 2012, 06:55:34 AM
I'm going to take the position that the basic model is overpriced, but the deluxe model is a good value.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 01, 2012, 07:49:06 AM
Exactly, and add to that the fact that the new systems will be coming out...and they will definitely have more memory than Nintendo will have. If you up your memory for storage you take that weapon away during comparisons. It just makes sense to do that...or to drop the price..however Nintendo really doesn't want to drop the price.
New consoles will have more powerful chipsets yet Nintendo remained conservative regarding hardware with Wii U. Everything you're saying applies to the console as a whole. However, Nintendo made very conscious choices. What people think Nintendo should do and what they actually do are 2 entirely different things. I don't disagree that the price of flash memory will decrease over time. Rather, I'm doubting Nintendo's desire to change a part they know they don't have to. The cost of 64GB+ will drop over time and so will the parts they're currently using. Unless they find a way to way to pay less for 64GB+ than 8GB/32GB, I don't see them changing anything. And like i said, Nintendo have stated repeatedly that the choice for extra storage is left to the consumer. This doesn't seem like priority for them. Honestly, I'm surprised there's a 32GB model at all.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: nickmitch on October 01, 2012, 09:09:48 PM
Why don't they just make the whole plane out if the black box?
Because the plane would be too heavy and wouldn't fly. Believe it or not, I didn't google that or search Wikipedia. I heard it from an episode of The Fairly Odd Parents and everything on that show is true.
It's like asking why don't I just live inside of a safe?
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on October 02, 2012, 11:43:59 AM
As was said on RFN last week, whether or not you feel the Wii U is worth the price is really an individual matter. Of course we can look at statistics and say that the 'market' accepted or rejected the hardware at a certain price point, but really the important question is whether or not you feel it's worth the cost. The value you place on a console can be affected by any number of things: the amount you earn, the other systems that you own, the games already announced, the region you're in etc.
For me at this current point the Wii U is not worth the price. I don't own a PS3 or 360, so comparing the Wii U to those systems and factoring in the software librarys and the price, I'd be more inclined to purchase one of those before I purchase a Wii U. That's not to say that I'll never purchase a Wii U, but there's simply not enough enticing things at launch (for me) to make it worth my money.
Why would you compare a new console that hasn't been released yet to a group of consoles that have been out for over 6 years (with established sales and game libraries)?
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Ceric on October 02, 2012, 11:55:21 AM
All my thoughts on the price are on NFR Episode 4.5 (http://nintendofreeradio.podbean.com/2012/09/15/nintendo-free-radio-episode-45-not-quite-a-bullet-train/). Suffice it to say I'm sort of dismayed on what people are saying about the price considering that $300 dollars for even the basic model level of dedicated tech and software in anything else that offers that would be considered a deal.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on October 02, 2012, 12:10:12 PM
Why would you compare a new console that hasn't been released yet to a group of consoles that have been out for over 6 years (with established sales and game libraries)?
Why wouldn't I? I don't own any of them and they're pretty comprobable systems as far as I can see. The year they were released has nothing to do with it. The question I was responding to was one of value. From a purely utilitarian standpoint I would (at this point) gain more value from purchasing a 360 or PS3 because the systems are cheaper, the games will be cheaper, the systems are ubiquitous and easy to obtain, and the software libraries are excellent.
The Wii U does of course have it's own 'value-added' services and features, but I personally would not place much value in them. The Miiverse stuff, the Gamepad, etc. They're not all that appealing to me. The most appealing aspect of any Nintendo system, I'm sure most would agree, is that they play Nintendo games. Once again, though, the question was one of actual value and not potential value. It was a question of whether or not we thought the Wii U is worth it's launch price. For me neither the system nor the launch games justify the price. Hence my answer.
All of which is of course subject to change.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Sarail on October 02, 2012, 02:06:34 PM
The most appealing aspect of any system, I'm sure most would agree, is that they play Nintendo games.
You know, mate, I look at my Wii, 'Cube, N64, and even SNES games sitting on my bookshelves, and I don't even think that statement holds true for me - nor has it ever. When I buy a Nintendo console, it's not for the prospect of being able to play fantastic, future-releasing Nintendo games. It's for the whole experience all uniquely tied and woven together. The majority of my games on each of those systems are all third-party games. Yes, even the N64. I realise that I may be a rare case, but Nintendo's games, for me, are an additional bonus on top of the already great third-party releases. And stamping Nintendo's innovative controllers on top of that whole package is what entices me the most - it's why I look forward to a Nintendo console.
Sure, we all anticipate seeing what the new games on new hardware are going to look like, but I go crazy wondering what Nintendo's new controller will look like and how it will operate. I always have. I don't get that same excitement with other guys' consoles, simply because I know they're just going to mimick what Nintendo do.
So, it's that experience tied into all of those third-party games with Nintendo's releases that makes me crave a new console from them.
You may see a boring and drab launch date release list, but I see an exciting launch day with the potential to be absolutely brilliant over the next several years. That's why I'm excited about the Wii U.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on October 02, 2012, 03:02:38 PM
The most appealing aspect of any system, I'm sure most would agree, is that they play Nintendo games.
So, it's that experience tied into all of those third-party games with Nintendo's releases that makes me crave a new console from them.
That's fair. However, I think most people (there's that term again) would accept the premise of my argument. Which is that since the SNES, Nintendo systems have not been known for their outstanding third party support. They have certainly had some fantastic third party games (some of the best in fact - Resident Evil 4, Rogue Squadron, Monster Hunter Tri etc.) but compared to their competitors it's been pretty slim pickings for Nintendo fans (just to reiterate, I'm speaking about the console front).
This is one of the few times you'll hear me say this, but I agree with Michael Pachter. Nintendo lives and dies by their software. Which given their talent for making great games is a good thing. However, Nintendo's last three home consoles are not exactly reknown for having been thriving hotbeds of third party support.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: broodwars on October 02, 2012, 03:50:24 PM
Whether consoles are "worth" their price is very subjective and is very much dependent on the games you want to buy for it. I don't think it's worth the price right now. $300 for what is essentially 6-year-old tech, a controller I don't want (and Nintendo hasn't made me want), and storage space inferior to both my existing HD consoles for a launch library I also largely don't want is just too much for me. And that's before taking into account the $350 for the Wii U version actually worth buying.
I already said as much on NFR 4.5 along with Ceric and Shaymin, but it was worth repeating.
Maybe if Nintendo had exclusive games at launch I wanted, I would consider the $300-$350 price tag worth it, but right now it really isn't. I really feel that the Wii U should be a $200 console with a $250 premium version based on the exclusives they're releasing early on. Right now, it just doesn't seem worth more than that to me, and considering I don't currently regret my $250+ for my Vita that's saying something.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Stogi on October 02, 2012, 03:57:21 PM
6 year old tech is a bit much, no?
Neither the PS3 or 360 is capable of 1080p; not to mention 1080p while streaming a 480p signal as well. Still I see where you are coming from.
I don't know if it's worth it for me either, but I have an insatiable urge to at least try it.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: broodwars on October 02, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
Neither the PS3 or 360 is capable of 1080p; not to mention 1080p while streaming a 480p signal as well. Still I see where you are coming from.
I don't know if it's worth it for me either, but I have an insatiable urge to at least try it.
Both the PS3 and 360 can output to 1080p. I should know: I had to test games displaying at those resolutions during my time with EA. It's just that most developers don't run their games natively at those resolutions so the consoles have to upscale them.
And given that 480p is apparently not considered high definition, the Gamepad interests me even less than it already does. It's where all the ****ty-looking game content will be displayed. So while the Wii U having to output two video streams at once is technically impressive, I don't think the average person is really going to appreciate that compared to having games that look like they couldn't be done by a 360 or PS3.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: lolmonade on October 02, 2012, 04:12:05 PM
After all the extra Wii remotes, nunchucks, classic controllers, and buying a game for my Wii, I was easily over $400 into the hole when I got mine.
I think i'll be just fine dropping $350 on the premium version.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Stogi on October 02, 2012, 04:21:27 PM
Neither the PS3 or 360 is capable of 1080p; not to mention 1080p while streaming a 480p signal as well. Still I see where you are coming from.
I don't know if it's worth it for me either, but I have an insatiable urge to at least try it.
Both the PS3 and 360 can output to 1080p. I should know: I had to test games displaying at those resolutions during my time with EA. It's just that most developers don't run their games natively at those resolutions so the consoles have to upscale them.
And given that 480p is apparently not considered high definition, the Gamepad interests me even less than it already does. It's where all the ****ty-looking game content will be displayed. So while the Wii U having to output two video streams at once is technically impressive, I don't think the average person is really going to appreciate that compared to having games that look like they couldn't be done by a 360 or PS3.
I don't know the full specs, but what I have read says it can output 720 to both the TV and gamepad or 1080p and 480p. It could be different who knows. I wish BnM was here. Actually I wish PRO was here to explain it.
But to your point. Developers don't run their games at 1080p natively because the framerate would be sub par, so saying that a console COULD output 1080p is much different than actually doing it.
That's not the point of the system though. It's a DS home console. It's a take the Netflix into the bathroom console. It's a "Here you go, developers. You have everything you'd ever need." console. It's power is only a piece of what makes it interesting.
Before this gets deep, let me just say that I agree with you. I won't be picking up the console till Pikmin 3 comes out.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: broodwars on October 02, 2012, 04:24:31 PM
It's a "Here you go, developers. You have everything you'd ever need." console. It's power is only a piece of what makes it interesting.
The problem is that what the Wii U can do technically is insufficient to keep the console relevant for 3rd parties beyond a few years. The larger developers have already been grumbling for the last year or two about wanting to work on console hardware akin to modern PCs. I don't see how 5-6 years more of the same with the Wii U will be well-received outside of costs by most developers.
But we'll see, I guess. There are just so many uncertainties surrounding the Wii U that I can't justify paying $350+ for "potential" I'm not sure is actually there.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on October 02, 2012, 04:44:17 PM
The problem is that what the Wii U can do technically is insufficient to keep the console relevant for 3rd parties beyond a few years. The larger developers have already been grumbling for the last year or two about wanting to work on console hardware akin to modern PCs. I don't see how 5-6 years more of the same with the Wii U will be well-received outside of costs by most developers.
Excellent point.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Ceric on October 02, 2012, 04:56:14 PM
Both the PS3 and 360 can output to 1080p. I should know: I had to test games displaying at those resolutions during my time with EA. It's just that most developers don't run their games natively at those resolutions so the consoles have to upscale them.
Because they can't.
Quote
And given that 480p is apparently not considered high definition, the Gamepad interests me even less than it already does. It's where all the ****ty-looking game content will be displayed.
How bad does the 3DS look? Its 400x240 (Per Eye)/320x240 (Bottom Screen) How bad does the PSP look? Its 480 × 272 How bad Does the iPhone - 3gs look? Its 480 × 320
We are talking 853×480 for Gamepad. If it looks bad that is fully the developers fault.
Your not going to get it that's fine but, the tech is definitely not 6 years old.
Honestly your kidding yourself if you think that any Multi-platform game will look any different then the other. When the PS2 reign supreme All the Multi-platform games looked like PS2 games for the most part.
Nintendo could make a show perfect Playable Transformer Primes and you could still argue that isn't much better then the PS3 or 360. Shoot just look at Gran Turismo. That game always looks at least 1 generation ahead of the generation its released.
It's a "Here you go, developers. You have everything you'd ever need." console. It's power is only a piece of what makes it interesting.
The problem is that what the Wii U can do technically is insufficient to keep the console relevant for 3rd parties beyond a few years. The larger developers have already been grumbling for the last year or two about wanting to work on console hardware akin to modern PCs. I don't see how 5-6 years more of the same with the Wii U will be well-received outside of costs by most developers.
But we'll see, I guess. There are just so many uncertainties surrounding the Wii U that I can't justify paying $350+ for "potential" I'm not sure is actually there.
Developers have been grumbling about that since the generation after the SNES.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: broodwars on October 02, 2012, 05:21:29 PM
Both the PS3 and 360 can output to 1080p. I should know: I had to test games displaying at those resolutions during my time with EA. It's just that most developers don't run their games natively at those resolutions so the consoles have to upscale them.
Because they can't.
Sure they could, depending on the type of game and how many effects were run. The point was he said the 360 and PS3 couldn't "do" 1080p (note the vague-ness), and they can output in that resolution.
Quote
How bad does the 3DS look? Its 400x240 (Per Eye)/320x240 (Bottom Screen) How bad does the PSP look? Its 480 × 272 How bad Does the iPhone - 3gs look? Its 480 × 320
"Pretty Bad, depending on whether 2D sprite or 3D polygonal", "Bad, depending on the same", and "I don't know. I don't own an iPhone", respectively.
Quote
Honestly your kidding yourself if you think that any Multi-platform game will look any different then the other. When the PS2 reign supreme All the Multi-platform games looked like PS2 games for the most part.
If the Wii U were more powerful, it could receive current PC ports instead, which would look considerably better than the PS3 or 360 are capable of right now.
Quote
Nintendo could make a show perfect Playable Transformer Primes and you could still argue that isn't much better then the PS3 or 360. Shoot just look at Gran Turismo. That game always looks at least 1 generation ahead of the generation its released.
If Nintendo had shown a game that really showed that the Wii U was in a league of its own above the PS3 or 360, you wouldn't hear a complaint from me about it. But they haven't because Nintendo is so damn paranoid about showing games more than 2 months out these days. So all they've shown are kind of typical-looking launch games outside of Rayman. If you were Wii-only, that's great. If you weren't, that's not impressive.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Ceric on October 02, 2012, 05:26:08 PM
Quote
... If the Wii U were more powerful, it could receive current PC ports instead, which would look considerably better than the PS3 or 360 are capable of right now. ...
You mean the PC Port of the Console Versions? There are very few non-indie games that are console compatible that are Pure PC Games.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Stogi on October 02, 2012, 05:52:57 PM
I think I can solve this with two videos, both 1080p. One in alpha (Wii U). One in beta (PC).
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: rlse9 on October 02, 2012, 05:56:33 PM
I guess it's worth it if you're really interested in the games at launch but there aren't any games that I'm really interested in the launch window outside of Pikmin 3. I'm still not sure that I'm sold on the tablet controller revolutionizing gaming and also of how long third party support will last for the system. I still have several Wii games I own that I haven't finished and a couple more I'd like to buy and more important things to spend money on, so at this point the Wii U isn't worth it to me. If I had a surplus of money, maybe I'd pick one up, but at this point I don't see the value in buying one.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on October 02, 2012, 09:39:12 PM
I think I can solve this with two videos, both 1080p. One in alpha (Wii U). One in beta (PC).
Yeah there's a reason why the PS3 and Xbox 360 aren't getting this game. I guess it proves how powerful the Wii U is. The other systems can't run it with full HD 1080p graphics and full-screen antialiasing.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Oblivion on October 03, 2012, 12:49:13 AM
What you seen Watch Dogs? Yeah.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Nemo on October 03, 2012, 12:32:32 PM
For me, it's not worth it. Last Black Friday, I got an XBox 360 with a beefy hard drive (and 2 games I didn't particularly want) for $199. For $100-150 more, I get no hard drive (which I'd have to buy seperately) and a gimicky controller. I predict that like with the Wii controls and the DS/3DS second screen, some games will make good use of the new controller, but that'll be a small batch of games. I mean, how many games really NEEDed the Wiimote? There's a few. But there's also a few where the Wiimote controls made the game worse. And then the majority could've gotten by fine with a standard controller.
So, in my opinion, the controller just doesn't add enough value to place it over the 360.
Also, I feel burned by the 3DS price cut.
Also, no Pikmin 3 at launch. Pikmin 3 is a system seller for me. If I do break down and get a Wii U, this'll be why.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: marty on October 03, 2012, 12:53:50 PM
I won't be getting a Wii U for the foreseeable future. The problem is there aren't any launch games that I really want. The Wii U could be priced at $100 and I still wouldn't get one at launch. I hope some cool games are on the way, that make me want to get a Wii U, but they haven't appeared yet and I'm not sure they will. I don't see the point in getting hyped up and buying something that may never prove itself to be something I would value.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 03, 2012, 01:05:47 PM
The word "gimmick" is almost always thrown around in a negative way. Shame, really. It's not inherently a bad thing.
The GamePad itself isn't enough to convince me to buy a Wii U though I never looked at it that way even if it's the most defining aspect of the Wii U. For the most part, I see it as an enhancement rather than a requirement or replacement. After all, it's basically attached to a regular controller. To me, that's the difference between the Wii Remote and the GamePad. The Wii Remote was an "or" controller while the GamePad is an "and" controller. It does everything a standard controller does with the option of a second screen and that's where its value lies. No, it's not "needed" but I'd certainly say it's welcome. It certainly shouldn't be used as a mark against the console. It will either make a game better (like the bottom screen did for Ocarina of Time 3D) or just not be used.
I'm not sure there will ever be a game released for the Wii U that makes the GamePad the reason to buy the console. It has a variety of uses, but in terms of gameplay, I don't think there's anything it can provide that we haven't seen before. That's still okay. It doesn't have to change the world. It just has to be an input device for games and as long as it does that well, I believe it's worthwhile.
I'm leaning on getting a Wii U at launch just so I have one since I know I want one and I don't want to worry about finding one if it sells out. I can certainly see why some would pass on it. There's a lot of variety in the launch lineup, but if you have another console, some of the immediacy is gone. I can wait on the exclusives. I'm only buying New Super Mario Bros. U because I have it mostly paid off in trade credit at Play N Trade and it's a 1st party title so it won't drop in price for at least 11 years.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Ceric on October 03, 2012, 01:15:43 PM
... I'm leaning on getting a Wii U at launch just so I have one since I know I want one and I don't want to worry about finding one if it sells out. ...
There the sentiment. As for the Early Adopter Tax. It will be at most $50.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 03, 2012, 02:07:00 PM
... I'm leaning on getting a Wii U at launch just so I have one since I know I want one and I don't want to worry about finding one if it sells out. ...
There the sentiment. As for the Early Adopter Tax. It will be at most $50.
But for that $50, you get to claim your online name without having to add meaningless numbers to the end of it. Would hate for someone else in the Miiverse to be running around with your name.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 03, 2012, 02:50:39 PM
The original Xbox 1 which came out in 2001 had an 8gb internal hard drive. This is exactly the same as the Wii U (basic) model. So its taken Nintendo 11 years to release a console with the same amount of internal storage that someone else did way back in 2001. Then combine that with a CPU which is slower than that of existing 6-7 year old consoles...
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on October 03, 2012, 03:08:28 PM
The original Xbox 1 which came out in 2001 had an 8gb internal hard drive. This is exactly the same as the Wii U (basic) model. So its taken Nintendo 11 years to release a console with the same amount of internal storage that someone else did way back in 2001. Then combine that with a CPU which is slower than that of existing 6-7 year old consoles...
lol, it's refreshing to me when people stand up and point at the elephant in the room. I often feel that I need to couch my opinions in such a way as to not offend people who are excited about the Wii U.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 03, 2012, 03:15:53 PM
The CPU is slower?! When did this happen? What an outrage! I was going to buy a Wii U, but now? NO MORE! How can anyone make good games on it now that this brand new information has suddenly come to light? They should halt production immediately, toss already completed inventory in a landfill, then just kill themselves.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Ceric on October 03, 2012, 03:40:39 PM
Also I'm going to Toss Any Computer that has a Processor that is running at less then 3.8Ghz Why Because I could get that over 8 years ago (http://ark.intel.com/products/27475/Intel-Pentium-4-Processor-570J-supporting-HT-Technology-1M-Cache-3_80-GHz-800-MHz-FSB).
How can anyone make good games with PC running at anything lower than 3.8Ghz slower.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Caterkiller on October 03, 2012, 04:11:08 PM
@ Broodwars
I completely understand where you are coming from, your situation with every system is way different from mine with just a Wii but I don't think it's fair to call the Wii U hardware 6 year old technology.
I am not implying it will be as good as the PS420 hardware but we have word from the developers that the tech inside is modern compared to what's in the PS3 or 360. The games we see now apparently have all started on another system, and aside from Batman all these multiplat games look slightly better than the other versions. Keeping in mind these games are the latest generation of what those systems have to offer and at the same time being 1st gen Wii U, I think Wii U is going t have a lot growing room visually.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: MrPhishfood on October 03, 2012, 04:58:02 PM
Your kidding yourselves if any of you think a console 2-4 times more powerful than a Wii U will have innovative games. The more money it takes to make a game the less risk the developers can make when it comes to style and innovation. Even if the developers were willing to take risks the publishers won't. Its not just about gaming its about business and if a game doesn't have enough mass market appeal to justify the huge development cost then its not worth making. The only people who can afford to take risks more than anyone else are first party developers.
You'd think with more power in a console it suddenly opens up all these possibilities that were previously closed off but its actually the opposite. I predict the Wii U will be where its at when it comes to innovation.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on October 03, 2012, 06:28:21 PM
Your kidding yourselves if any of you think a console 2-4 times more powerful than a Wii U will have innovative games. The more money it takes to make a game the less risk the developers can make when it comes to style and innovation. Even if the developers were willing to take risks the publishers won't. Its not just about gaming its about business and if a game doesn't have enough mass market appeal to justify the huge development cost then its not worth making. The only people who can afford to take risks more than anyone else are first party developers.
You'd think with more power in a console it suddenly opens up all these possibilities that were previously closed off but its actually the opposite. I predict the Wii U will be where its at when it comes to innovation.
People said the same thing when the Wii came out. That as it was the cheaper and more familiar platform it would be the more appealing system to develop for. That was not borne out. Looking back over the course of the last 6 years, developers were not only able to account for the expense of creating more graphically detailed and grander video games on the other platforms, they were able to flourish.
We are now at a stage in the console cycle were there is not much in the way of innovation, but this generation has seen more than it's share of innovations and advancements, most of which I would argue took place on platforms other than Nintendo's. They were perhaps more subtle (and I would argue more substantive) innovations than Nintendo's contribution this generation, i.e. motion control, but they were still necessary steps forward for the medium. This was the generation in which online became a crucial component of consoles, it was an era in which we saw the quality of storytelling raised, it was this generation that saw huge advancements in physics engines, graphics engines, audio design...the list goes on. All of these things are important for the medium and many of them are tied to the capabiltiy of the hardware.
Nintendo's 'Withered Technology' theory of hardware design has, however, worked in the past. It's true that innovation does not necessarilly flow from technological advancement. The NES, Gameboy and DS were all able to overcome what were arguably more technologically advanced competitors. The problem for me is that Nintendo's 'withered technology' now actually appears...well...withered.
I don't see why I should be excited for a very large and anachronistic touch screen controller. I don't see why I should be excited about Miiverse or digital downloads when Nintendo is simply catching up to it's competitors in regards to online services. No doubt someone will tell me how Nintendo sprinkle pixie dust and sugar on everything they create, and that Nintendo always put a unique spin on these things, but I'm not buying it.
The market for video games is not what it was when the NES was released. It is much bigger and broader, and video games as an industry is far more advanced. Yet, the Wii U isn't even out yet and already I think of it as being quaint. Nintendo has proven me wrong before, and I hope it does so again; but I'm not holding my breath.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 03, 2012, 06:54:29 PM
It does open up a ton of possibilities, if you're willing and able to spend the money to realize them. Beyond Activision and EA there really aren't many publishers who could afford to go for that, and they're not exactly known for pushing the envelope with new and innovative ideas.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: TJ Spyke on October 03, 2012, 07:14:49 PM
For me, it's not worth it. Last Black Friday, I got an XBox 360 with a beefy hard drive (and 2 games I didn't particularly want) for $199.
You are talking about a Black Friday Sale (when things are much lower in price than normal) of a 6 year old system vs. the launch price of a brand new system. That's like asking why the 6 year old DVD you bought at Walmart for $5 is cheaper than the brand new Blu-ray Disc movie that just came out.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Ian Sane on October 03, 2012, 07:21:40 PM
Right now the only thing Wii U related that interests me is Pikmin 3 and that's not even a day one title. I like Pikmin a lot but not so much that I couldn't wait potentially years to buy both it and a Wii U console at bargain bin prices. One thing that Pikmin really has going for it is that the concept isn't played out. This is only the third game. The series is still new enough to have fresh ideas. I'm not going to buy a Wii U for cookie-cutter Mario or Zelda. I don't have any confidence at this point that Nintendo will do anything interesting with either series (though they might give them shitty controls; their favourite "innovation" in the Iwata reign). And if Pikmin 3 is just Pikmin 2 With Waggle, then I don't want it either.
For me the Wii U is not enticing because it's so similar to the Wii. It has: - A gimmick controller - "Wii" in the name - Miis all over the damn place in Nintendo Land and the Miiverse - Potentially conservative hardware that won't stand up to it's competitors
What I really want from Nintendo is an "apology" console. I want them to pretend the last six years never existed and release the logical successor to the hypothetical Gamecube successor I wanted but never got. Unless the Wii was commercially a huge bomb there was no way Nintendo was going to give me exactly what I want and I understand that. But at the very least I would like some acknowledgement that things will be different and that isn't there. If it was we would know the specs and they would impress us. We wouldn't have some lame ass gimmick controller OR we would have a new controller but it wouldn't come across as a gimmick because Nintendo would instantly sell us on it like they did with the analog stick on the N64. Nintendo wouldn't be spoon feeding us little bits of info like this is national security.
The Wii U looks like a conventional successor to the Wii. From a business standpoint I get why Nintendo would go that route. But for me that's worth like maybe 20 bucks tops.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on October 03, 2012, 07:22:53 PM
For me, it's not worth it. Last Black Friday, I got an XBox 360 with a beefy hard drive (and 2 games I didn't particularly want) for $199.
You are talking about a Black Friday Sale (when things are much lower in price than normal) of a 6 year old system vs. the launch price of a brand new system. That's like asking why the 6 year old DVD you bought at Walmart for $5 is cheaper than the brand new Blu-ray Disc movie that just came out.
It's more like asking why the 6 year old DVD you bought at Walmart for $5 is cheaper than the brand new DVD, which despite coming out years later, is actually pretty much comprobable to the one that's been on the market for quite some time.
:P: :
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: ShyGuy on October 03, 2012, 10:18:21 PM
Ian cracks me up sometimes.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 04, 2012, 12:08:04 AM
People said the same thing when the Wii came out. That as it was the cheaper and more familiar platform it would be the more appealing system to develop for. That was not borne out. Looking back over the course of the last 6 years, developers were not only able to account for the expense of creating more graphically detailed and grander video games on the other platforms, they were able to flourish.
Games Industry Death Watch (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30285.0)
I'm just sayin'.....
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 04, 2012, 12:09:05 AM
I'm not going to buy a Wii U for cookie-cutter Mario or Zelda.
Then, don't.
Quote
We wouldn't have some lame ass gimmick controller OR we would have a new controller but it wouldn't come across as a gimmick because Nintendo would instantly sell us on it like they did with the analog stick on the N64. Nintendo wouldn't be spoon feeding us little bits of info like this is national security.
Jesus Cripes... the GamePad is the standard, traditional controller you've been saying you wanted for the last 6 years except it has a screen on it. Can you at least use it ONCE before you start trashing it? You're a confusing person. You say you want one thing then turn around say you want something else. You've beaten the I-want-traditional-controls-back horse beyond recognition; it's just bits of bone and guts at this point. Nintendo gives you not one, but TWO traditional controllers and yet it's still not good enough. How is that even possib... What new controller in this day and age wouldn't come across as a gimmick and still manage to instantly sell you on it? What can any company add that you won't curb stomp?
I can understand not being sold on the lineup or Nintendo Network, but the controllers are exactly what you've been huffing and puffing about for over half a decade and Nintendo somehow managed to get that wrong. You crack me up sometimes...
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on October 04, 2012, 02:20:53 AM
People said the same thing when the Wii came out. That as it was the cheaper and more familiar platform it would be the more appealing system to develop for. That was not borne out. Looking back over the course of the last 6 years, developers were not only able to account for the expense of creating more graphically detailed and grander video games on the other platforms, they were able to flourish.
Games Industry Death Watch (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30285.0)
I'm just sayin'.....
I didn't say the stakes didn't become higher. I accept that we've seen huge casualties this generation among developers, but I'd argue that that has as much to do with bad management and a fundamental misunderstanding of the market as it does with the expense of the development process. We would also be naive is we were to ignore the global economic situation during the latter half of these years.
Taken as a whole though, I'd still argue that game development did flourish. We do have the Triple A games with huge budgets, but we now also have a healthy indie scene which has sprung up on consoles. There are lots of options out there for developers.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 04, 2012, 04:02:37 AM
For me the Wii U is not enticing because it's so similar to the Wii. It has: - A gimmick controller - "Wii" in the name - Miis all over the damn place in Nintendo Land and the Miiverse - Potentially conservative hardware that won't stand up to it's competitors
These are precisely the reasons why I said I want the Wii U to fail. Only if the Wii U fails will the "Wii" brand die off and we can have any hope of getting the old Nintendo back. If the Wii U is hugely successful or even just does well enough to spur Nintendo into making a Wii U2 or Wii ME or Wii Them 5-6 years from now then that will really suck. Who knows when (or even if) we will ever have the old Nintendo back.
That said, I'm okay with the controller gimmick since it is at its core still a traditional controller, and developers can simply ignore the gimmicky aspects of it. As for the other points, I think if it was just one or two of them I could live with it, but if its going to be all of them plus shitty 3rd party support plus game droughts then that's probably too much for me.
In any case, I already missed the pre-order boat even before I was aware I could pre-order it, and considering its probably going to be sold out continuously for the next several months I probably won't be able to get the Wii U anytime soon even if it were something I were already sold on. I don't need another console that will just sit and collect dust. I need to see what the long term support of this console is going to look like. So its getting ports of 2011 PS360 games? That's well and good, but I can play those on my PS3 right now. What are things going to look like two years from now?
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 04, 2012, 04:18:44 AM
Jesus Cripes... the GamePad is the standard, traditional controller you've been saying you wanted for the last 6 years except it has a screen on it. Can you at least use it ONCE before you start trashing it? You're a confusing person. You say you want one thing then turn around say you want something else. You've beaten the I-want-traditional-controls-back horse beyond recognition; it's just bits of bone and guts at this point. Nintendo gives you not one, but TWO traditional controllers and yet it's still not good enough. How is that even possib... What new controller in this day and age wouldn't come across as a gimmick and still manage to instantly sell you on it? What can any company add that you won't curb stomp?
The only downside to the controller is that with it being as costly as it is Nintendo gutted the console itself in order to compensate. When you buy the $300-$350 Wii U, about $100 of that is going into the controller. If Nintendo had opted for a simpler controller without the bells and whistles then they could have beefed up the console specs a good deal more than they did while keeping the MSRP the same. They could have went with a modern CPU, and perhaps double the RAM for example. Then they wouldn't be outclassed in 2 years when the PS420 shows up with beastly hardware.
But I don't think there is anyone who has a problem with a screen built into the controller in and of itself. There's not much downside to it other than the fact that Nintendo is cutting corners in order to shoehorn it in. If we could have the gimmicky controller plus kickass hardware everyone would be happy, but instead of making everyone happy Nintendo decided to appease casual gamers only.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Stogi on October 04, 2012, 06:30:17 AM
People said the same thing when the Wii came out. That as it was the cheaper and more familiar platform it would be the more appealing system to develop for. That was not borne out. Looking back over the course of the last 6 years, developers were not only able to account for the expense of creating more graphically detailed and grander video games on the other platforms, they were able to flourish.
Games Industry Death Watch (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30285.0)
I'm just sayin'.....
Brilliant.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 04, 2012, 07:41:38 AM
They could have went with a modern CPU, and perhaps double the RAM for example. Then they wouldn't be outclassed in 2 years when the PS420 shows up with beastly hardware.
Dude, you really need to let that go because you're not a software developer and you don't know what it means in the context of gane creation.
Quote
But I don't think there is anyone who has a problem with a screen built into the controller in and of itself. There's not much downside to it other than the fact that Nintendo is cutting corners in order to shoehorn it in. If we could have the gimmicky controller plus kickass hardware everyone would be happy, but instead of making everyone happy Nintendo decided to appease casual gamers only.
That doesn't make sense for a couple reasons. The GamePad is the exact controller that Nintendo said alienated casual gamers except with a screen on it and somehow, SOMEHOW Nintendo decided to appease casual gamers only? What is this? I don't even...
They're not mutually exclusive. Nintendo didn't cut corners to include the GamePad. In fact, the GamePad was almost cut due to cost concerns. I buy that explanation to a point as it's probably exaggerated for PR purposes. The screen probably adds roughly $30-$40 in raw parts to a standard controller. So, no, sir, the GamePad isn't being included at the expense of the hardware; it's being included in addition to what Nintendo always planned. Besides some tweaking for latency concerns with the GamePad, the Wii U's hardware is right around what Nintendo wanted it to be. You may disagree with the approach, but Nintendo have stated time and again that they will not willingly sell at a loss, certainly not for higher spec hardware.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: broodwars on October 04, 2012, 09:09:02 AM
But I don't think there is anyone who has a problem with a screen built into the controller in and of itself. There's not much downside to it other than the fact that Nintendo is cutting corners in order to shoehorn it in. If we could have the gimmicky controller plus kickass hardware everyone would be happy, but instead of making everyone happy Nintendo decided to appease casual gamers only.
Don't forget that along with Nintendo basically knee-capping the Wii U by forcing it to process 2 output streams at once (TV, GamePad), there is basic expected functionality that the GamePad just doesn't have: it can't play Virtual Console titles (at least not on the GamePad alone), and it can't play even certain Wii games at all. By contrast, if I fired up a PS1 or PS2 game on either of my PS3s (my original was a backwards-compatible model), I could just use my Dualshock 3 to play the game. I didn't need a Dualshock 1 or Dualshock 2 to do it. If the game appears on my PS3, I can play it with my modern controllers. It's just that simple.
Now, you can argue that the Dualshocks are all the same basic design, so that's not comparable, but the GamePad is essentially a Classic Controller Pro. Are you seriously telling me it was out of the realm of possibility to program the Wii or Virtual Console emulators to see the GamePad as a Classic Controller Pro? Sure, motion control games would be more or less out of the question. The controllers are just too different. I understand that. But surely Nintendo could have worked out a solution where I don't have to drag out my Wiimote and my Classic Controller Pro the next time I feel like playing Xenoblade or frickin' Chrono Trigger on the Wii U. But they didn't, because it wouldn't be as easy as just locking all Wii U functionality while inside non-Wii U titles and Nintendo's all about the easy route these days.
So yeah, I'm not thrilled at the idea of a $350 console because Nintendo's forcing me to buy an apparently $170 controller I don't want that doesn't even have the functionality I would expect from it while also not really being a "portable Wii U". And all this to solve a problem I don't have and I'm not sure that many people do: having to share TVs with non-gamers.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 04, 2012, 09:55:06 AM
Don't forget that along with Nintendo basically knee-capping the Wii U by forcing it to process 2 output streams at once (TV, GamePad), there is basic expected functionality that the GamePad just doesn't have: it can't play Virtual Console titles (at least not on the GamePad alone), and it can't play even certain Wii games at all.
I wouldn't necessarily call it knee-capping the hardware considering that outputting to both TV and GamePad for gameplay is just a different kind of split-screen. The GamePad displays in 480p so the hardware could be doing less work to render everything then making it up by sending that info to the controller. Rendering in HD then sending that to a screen that can't display in HD seems like a waste of system resources or poor optimization. I don't think we know enough to consider that knee-capping. I imagine that the GamePad's screen isn't a requirement and can be turned off if developers really want the extra power though that kind of misses the point of the console. It'll probably happen, just not often. Smash Bros. is probably one such game, but it's not really the type of game that lends itself to utilizing an extra screen in a meaningful way so it gets a pass (at least as it stands). The 3DS version will likely only use it to conserve space on the top screen.
The other things you mentioned, not playing VC games or controlling Wii games that use the Classic Controller, are admittedly odd choices. It seems lazy, like how only the Wii Remote could navigate the Wii Menu.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: broodwars on October 04, 2012, 09:57:34 AM
The other things you mentioned, not playing VC games or controlling Wii games that use the Classic Controller, are admittedly odd choices. It seems lazy, like how only the Wii Remote could navigate the Wii Menu.
In all fairness, you can use the Classic Controller on the Wii's Channels menus. You can use the Right Stick to move the cursor around. I don't generally use my Classic Controller Pro for that purpose, but you could if you wanted to.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Ceric on October 04, 2012, 10:05:37 AM
But I don't think there is anyone who has a problem with a screen built into the controller in and of itself. There's not much downside to it other than the fact that Nintendo is cutting corners in order to shoehorn it in. If we could have the gimmicky controller plus kickass hardware everyone would be happy, but instead of making everyone happy Nintendo decided to appease casual gamers only.
Don't forget that along with Nintendo basically knee-capping the Wii U by forcing it to process 2 output streams at once (TV, GamePad), there is basic expected functionality that the GamePad just doesn't have: it can't play Virtual Console titles (at least not on the GamePad alone), and it can't play even certain Wii games at all. By contrast, if I fired up a PS1 or PS2 game on either of my PS3s (my original was a backwards-compatible model), I could just use my Dualshock 3 to play the game. I didn't need a Dualshock 1 or Dualshock 2 to do it. If the game appears on my PS3, I can play it with my modern controllers. It's just that simple.
Now, you can argue that the Dualshocks are all the same basic design, so that's not comparable, but the GamePad is essentially a Classic Controller Pro. Are you seriously telling me it was out of the realm of possibility to program the Wii or Virtual Console emulators to see the GamePad as a Classic Controller Pro? Sure, motion control games would be more or less out of the question. The controllers are just too different. I understand that. But surely Nintendo could have worked out a solution where I don't have to drag out my Wiimote and my Classic Controller Pro the next time I feel like playing Xenoblade or frickin' Chrono Trigger on the Wii U. But they didn't, because it wouldn't be as easy as just locking all Wii U functionality while inside non-Wii U titles and Nintendo's all about the easy route these days.
So yeah, I'm not thrilled at the idea of a $350 console because Nintendo's forcing me to buy an apparently $170 controller I don't want that doesn't even have the functionality I would expect from it while also not really being a "portable Wii U". And all this to solve a problem I don't have and I'm not sure that many people do: having to share TVs with non-gamers.
They have not said you couldn't use the Gamepad as a Classic Controller in Wii mode. They've only said you couldn't play games on the Gamepad Screen.
At this point we don't know.
Your "modern" controller is a Dualshock. Sony ditched its original name the Sixaxis because people didn't like that. Sony caved and instead of giving us what would have been a more ergonomically designed controller they just gave us a Dualshock.
Sony put a WHOLE PS2 in the original PS3. Memory Serves they put a WHOLE PS1 into the PS2. You see a trend here. Then they totally ditched BC when it became slightly hard and they found they could resell the games.
Now lets say I want to you know actually use some of the past hardware I've acquired like DDR Mats or better yet a Controller for a second player on a PS3. Because a Dualshock 3 is a Dualshock 2 with tilt you should be able to just do that. Wrong. You have to buy an adapter to use the controllers you already own or spend the 50-60 bucks for the occasional multiplayer. Like to transfer you PS2 Memory Cards to work with your PS3. $20 Transfer Adapter.
I don't really think Nintendo is doing bad at all compared to the Sony Example your going with.
The other things you mentioned, not playing VC games or controlling Wii games that use the Classic Controller, are admittedly odd choices. It seems lazy, like how only the Wii Remote could navigate the Wii Menu.
In all fairness, you can use the Classic Controller on the Wii's Channels menus. You can use the Right Stick to move the cursor around. I don't generally use my Classic Controller Pro for that purpose, but you could if you wanted to.
Which is a pain and Glitchy.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 04, 2012, 10:06:36 AM
I see. I had no idea. I thought it was the same as the GameCube controller. Whenever Super Smash Bros. Brawl was in, we always used Wavebirds so I would need the Wii Remote to get into the game.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 04, 2012, 12:03:52 PM
Quote
The original Xbox 1 which came out in 2001 had an 8gb internal hard drive.
And Xbox 360 core had no hard drive and the pro model had a 20 GB HDD which is less then the Premium Wii system. Not to mention comparing flash memory to an HDD. So a ridiculous comparison no matter how you slice it. Oh yeah and the other big elephant in the room is for 360 you are paying a premium price for their propriety drive.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Ian Sane on October 04, 2012, 01:15:22 PM
My beef with the controller is the same that Chozo and broodwars have. It's not just a minor addition to the traditional controller. It's an expensive addition. Without it the system may have had a lower price or, more importantly, the hardware would be more impressive because Nintendo didn't have to make any compromises to accomodate a very expensive controller. Adding L+R buttons or the analog stick or clicky triggers were not expensive additions to the controller and had no impact on the "guts" of the machine itself.
My biggest concern about the Wii U is that once again we're getting inferior hardware that won't be able to compete with the other systems. The reason for Nintendo to be chincy with the hardware is so that their super expensive controller doesn't inflate the price of the system to an unaffordable level. Well that screen better be fucking worth it and so far I see nothing to suggest it is. With the Wii the controller was EVERYTHING. They asked us to essentially stay a generation back in exchange for motion control. Except motion control sucks so for me that was not worth it at all. So this gen are they asking us to AGAIN stay a generation back in exchange for a screen? A concept that Nintendo already did back on the Gamecube and couldn't come up with any ideas for? But ten years later suddenly the ideas are there, even though they have not shown us any yet?
I like how the controller just builds onto the existing design. That's good controller design. It's just the cost of the technology and the potential ripple effect of that that I don't like. The Wii was gimmick over substance and I will not put up with that again.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: MrPhishfood on October 04, 2012, 01:28:50 PM
People said the same thing when the Wii came out. That as it was the cheaper and more familiar platform it would be the more appealing system to develop for. That was not borne out. Looking back over the course of the last 6 years, developers were not only able to account for the expense of creating more graphically detailed and grander video games on the other platforms, they were able to flourish.
There's a big difference between then and now.
Warren Spector spoke about this some time ago on next-gen consoles HERE (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a376748/warren-spector-scared-about-cost-of-next-generation-consoles.html)
"I think the power of the platforms is outstripping the size of the audience. We can't charge $150 for a game. And when the best-selling game of all time has sold only 20 million copies, at $60, do the math!
"If you're spending $200 million on a game and you're making $60 on 20 million copies sold, oh wait, you're losing money if you're the best-selling game of all time basically, right? I don't know how the business works anymore, that's the problem."
Note: It may seem like his math is wrong but publishers only get a fraction of that $60. You can read more about it HERE (http://spong.com/feature/10109217/Feature-Why-Do-Games-Cost-So-Much)
Penny Arcade Report had a good article on why its so risky working on AAA development HERE (http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/lay-offs-and-studio-closures-the-high-risk-world-of-aaa-game-development-of)
The industry is also narrowing. Fuller points out that in the past there have been 20 studios you could classify as AAA. These days? A dozen to 15. “In a year how many are we going to have? Sure, they’re going to be enormous, but how many will there be?” He joked about a future where there’s a single “AAAAA” developer employing 25,000 people. I didn’t find it funny.
To us the end consumer things don't really seem to change much but to the people working in the industry it has changed dramatically. As all those links have pointed out, developing for PS2 & Xbox is significantly different from developing for 360 & PS3. Games are still costing the same as they did last generation yet developers are spending more money making them and still getting the same cut of the profits. This is why its so important for AAA games this generation to have mass market appeal, they need more sales than ever just to break even.
If I was a developer or even the head of a studio I would want the Wii U to succeed over the competition. I would rather be trying to profit on creativity and ideas rather than profiting on polygons and textures.
EDIT: I would also like to point out even though technology is improving all the time it does not necessarily mean next-gen development will cost the same. The cost isn't measured in the hardware the developers use, its measured in the hours each employee spends making the game. Creating richer and expansive worlds requires more time. As Warren Spector puts it:
"It already takes three years to take a game, when all of a sudden creating assets at an even higher level of quality and animations that are even a higher level of quality, I don't know how we're going to do it. We'll figure it out but right now I'm content where I am."
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 04, 2012, 02:07:10 PM
It's not just a minor addition to the traditional controller. It's an expensive addition. Without it the system may have had a lower price or, more importantly, the hardware would be more impressive because Nintendo didn't have to make any compromises to accomodate a very expensive controller. Adding L+R buttons or the analog stick or clicky triggers were not expensive additions to the controller and had no impact on the "guts" of the machine itself.
This has already been addressed. The GamePad had no major effect on the hardware besides making sure it functioned as intended. Without it, Nintendo would have launched with basically the same specs. They're not playing by Sony and Microsoft's rules, even if you want them to. Whether or not the Wii U would have been launched at a significantly lower price point is debatable. Who's to say Nintendo wouldn't just pocket the extra? Mind you, I'm not advocating it. I just don't think it's fair to use that against the GamePad.
And define "expensive." In what manner of speaking? The screen itself isn't. Nintendo is marking the GamePad's retail price up which is its own separate discussion. There's research and development. It's not really fair to put recouping that cost entirely on the profits from the console itself.
The rest of your post is just... Wow. I'm not going to try to sell you on the merits of the GamePad. That's not up to me and I don't think anything will anyway. I don't think your assessment of the GamePad is fair or accurate at all, but that's your opinion and I won't argue it. We're all aware that you don't want one so the end.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: broodwars on October 04, 2012, 02:21:05 PM
They have not said you couldn't use the Gamepad as a Classic Controller in Wii mode. They've only said you couldn't play games on the Gamepad Screen.
At this point we don't know.
Officially, this is true. However, we have been told several things that point to Virtual Console games not being playable using the GamePad:
1. We know the GamePad is shut off while in "Wii mode", where Wii games are playable and only Wii controllers & accessories function.
2. We know the Wii U is in "Wii mode" when you are playing Virtual Console titles, because that was Nintendo's justification for not allowing Virtual Console games to be displayed on the Gamepad.
Using logic we can thus infer that because the Wii U is in "Wii mode" while it is playing Virtual Console games, only Wii controllers & accessories will function for those games. Like I said, Nintendo hasn't said this officially, but I think it's a pretty sound deduction.
Quote
Now lets say I want to you know actually use some of the past hardware I've acquired like DDR Mats or better yet a Controller for a second player on a PS3. Because a Dualshock 3 is a Dualshock 2 with tilt you should be able to just do that. Wrong. You have to buy an adapter to use the controllers you already own or spend the 50-60 bucks for the occasional multiplayer. Like to transfer you PS2 Memory Cards to work with your PS3. $20 Transfer Adapter.
I don't really think Nintendo is doing bad at all compared to the Sony Example your going with.
I really don't see how Nintendo forcing folks to buy a $50 - $170 controller to play Wii U multiplayer for only Wii U games is any better than Sony charging $50 for a new Dualshock 3 that's compatible with everything (non-Move) the PS3 can play anyway. :-\
As for old accessories, I tend to get rid of my old systems when I buy the new one. Many of my consoles (my Wii, my now-broken original PS3, and my newer PS1-compatible PS3) will play older-generation games so I can just keep my games and get rid of the hardware I don't have room to store anyway. That's also money I can put into the purchase of the new console. *shrugs* I think people wanting to use their old accessories on their new console to play old games is a bit of an edge case, but I agree they should be supported so long as the plugs are compatible. If not, well...they belong in a museum! ;)
The other things you mentioned, not playing VC games or controlling Wii games that use the Classic Controller, are admittedly odd choices. It seems lazy, like how only the Wii Remote could navigate the Wii Menu.
In all fairness, you can use the Classic Controller on the Wii's Channels menus. You can use the Right Stick to move the cursor around. I don't generally use my Classic Controller Pro for that purpose, but you could if you wanted to.
Which is a pain and Glitchy.
Indeed. I don't recommend it, but it is an option if you really want it.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 04, 2012, 05:32:12 PM
The reason Virtual Console games can't run on the GamePad is a symptom of decisions Nintendo made six years ago about how the Virtual Console was going to work. They decided that each game should come with its own version of the emulator and would be tested and approved individually. To update them for the Wii U they'd have to update each game individually, which would take a ridiculous amount of time. I think it's going to happen, it's just not going to happen immediately.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 04, 2012, 05:34:47 PM
The GamePad had no major effect on the hardware besides making sure it functioned as intended.
Why do you say that? I think it did have an effect on the hardware because when Nintendo was designing the console they had a target MSRP in mind and so when they were working on the specs of the console they were trying to meet this target. I'm guessing $299.99 was their target, which they managed to meet with the basic model. Now obviously Nintendo likes to profit off every hardware unit sold, so we can expect perhaps $20-$50 of that $300 is pure profit for Nintendo, and then you have a controller which costs how much? $100? So that leaves a budget of only about $150 for the console itself.
So instead of using an internal hard drive, Nintendo went with 8gb flash, and instead of using a modern CPU they went with a low end obsolete chip instead. And instead of going with 4-8gb of RAM like the competition is going to, Nintendo used only 2gb of RAM. All of these cuts were made and these cuts were necessary in order to keep manufacturing costs below that $150 target level. If you took the $100 controller out of the picture then Nintendo could have a budget of $250 for the console and the specs could have been a lot heftier while still meeting that $300 MSRP.
Without it, Nintendo would have launched with basically the same specs.
But not at the same MSRP. Maybe you are right that without the expensive controller Nintendo would have skimped on the console specs exactly the same as they did, but in that case they wouldn't need to be selling it at $300-$350. Perhaps it could have been $249.99 or even $199.99.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Ceric on October 04, 2012, 05:38:42 PM
Assumptions Made in that list: CPU Not Modern Competition will have 4-8gb of Ram MSRP was Pre-Determined
Can you source those 3?
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 04, 2012, 05:45:10 PM
Also, the assumption that the controller costs $100. I doubt it's even half that.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: TJ Spyke on October 04, 2012, 05:47:29 PM
Also, the assumption that the controller costs $100. I doubt it's even half that.
It's $170 in Japan, no way will it be $50 or less here. I don't think it will be $170 here, but I don't see them charging 1/3 the price here.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 04, 2012, 06:06:41 PM
What it costs Nintendo to manufacture and what they're going to charge for it at retail are two very different things; controllers are some of the highest markup in the business. The former is much more relevant to the discussion we were having.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 04, 2012, 06:08:51 PM
Assumptions Made in that list: CPU Not Modern Competition will have 4-8gb of Ram MSRP was Pre-Determined
Can you source those 3?
1) A developer for Dynasty Warriors said it was a slower CPU than that of the PS360. Also, even long before that I remember reading something another developer said about the Wii U's CPU being inferior to that of existing consoles. Developers wouldn't be saying this if there wasn't at least some kernel of truth to it. Its not just one developer which is saying this either. Its happened at least twice.
2) A rumor was posted recently that the Xbox420 Devkit has 12gb of RAM. The Devkit is always going to have more RAM than the final consumer end console, but there is no reason to have 12gb of RAM in the Devkit if your console is going to have only 2gb RAM in the finalized version. So based on that rumor I would expect the final console to release with a minimum of 4gb and a maximum of 8gb of RAM. As for the PS4, I have no idea. That one could be more, less, or exactly the same.
3) I think its a safe to assume that every hardware manufacturer has a target MSRP in mind when they are designing any product. In order to prove that I would have to know the full details of Nintendo's inner workings and their design process, and I don't, but why would anyone go about designing in a haphazard wanton way with no goals or targets? I don't think someone who has been in the business as long as Nintendo has would be stupid enough to be willy nilly in their hardware design. Nintendo had a targeted MSRP in mind. I can't prove that, but I would seriously bet money on that.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 04, 2012, 06:14:42 PM
1) A developer for Dynasty Warriors said it was a slower CPU than that of the PS360. Also, even long before that I remember reading something another developer said about the Wii U's CPU being inferior to that of existing consoles. Developers wouldn't be saying this if there wasn't at least some kernel of truth to it. Its not just one developer which is saying this either. Its happened at least twice.
And you're just ignoring all the developers who have said it's better hardware than either of them? I've pretty sure there have been significantly more than two people who've said that.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 04, 2012, 06:16:37 PM
What it costs Nintendo to manufacture and what they're going to charge for it at retail are two very different things; controllers are some of the highest markup in the business. The former is much more relevant to the discussion we were having.
But if they are selling the controller at retail for $170 then why couldn't it cost $100 (or even more than that) for them to manufacture it? That would still be $70 markup.
Do you really think it only costs them $50 to manufacture the controller and then they are selling it for $120 profit? I don't think even Nintendo would be quite that excessive.
And you're just ignoring all the developers who have said it's better hardware than either of them? I've pretty sure there have been significantly more than two people who've said that.
I've seen developers praise the Wii U's controller and the Wii U's graphical capabilities, but I can't think of even a single time where a developer outright praised the CPU in particular. The consensus seems to be that the CPU is "good enough" at best. No one is saying "Wow! This CPU is lightyears ahead of its time!". Developers can't seem to agree on whether its better or worse than the PS360's CPUs, but the problem is the PS360 isn't going to be the Wii U's competition, so marginally beating them out is only a Phyrric victory. Its like showing up at a party with the best costume just before the party ends, and then you're standing there by yourself looking like an idiot because everyone else is leaving even though you have only just arrived.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 04, 2012, 08:05:37 PM
The question isn't what the new systems will have...the question is where are we in terms of graphics this generation and next generation...if we are getting to the point that basically it is cost prohibited to have much better graphics than what we are currently getting...then it doesn't matter what the new systems have...it isn't worth it for developers to spend that much per game...specially were the market is desiring cheaper games not more expensive games.
I will tell you what...i know the iOS market isn't perfectly sustainable with its super low prices for games... but it is showing people good, even great games don't have to be $60.00. In fact even digital games are showing that games can be great and priced lower. So I see developers are going to need to adjust, and begin releasing budget titles...not every title, but I do see a potential shift happening in the market.
I will tell you right now, if gaming went to releasing games at portable console prices for retail console games, there would be a bigger market and audience for gaming. $30.00 to 40.00 a game is much more reasonable than 50 to 60.
Basically, what I am saying is the future of gaming is not settled, and Nintendo's lower powered system may be more than powerful enough for the future...and Xbox 720 and PS4...may just be too powerful and pointlessly advanced.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 04, 2012, 08:31:50 PM
Why do you say that? I think it did have an effect on the hardware because when Nintendo was designing the console they had a target MSRP in mind and so when they were working on the specs of the console they were trying to meet this target.
It takes years to design hardware. Any major changes costs a lot of money. The GamePad was almost nixed in the final design phase due to cost concerns. Had that actually happened, I have my doubts that Nintendo would have bumped up the specs. Their entire philosophy revolves around not doing that. Fortune favors the bold and they chose to forge ahead with the GamePad.
Nintendo's lower powered system may be more than powerful enough for the future...and Xbox 720 and PS4...may just be too powerful and pointlessly advanced.
That is a real possibility.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Soren on October 04, 2012, 11:03:01 PM
Fortune favors the bold and they chose to forge ahead with the GamePad.
Yes, but taking the easy road of conservative hardware and preying on casual suckers with a gimmick is hardly a bold move. It was a move that brought Nintendo great fortune with the Wii, but it isn't guaranteed it will work just as well this time around. It may, or it may not. The market is different now then it was 6 years ago. The people who bought into the Wii back then have now moved on to iPhones and Androids. Those who remain and still give a crap about console gaming are the Core gamers who Nintendo turned their back on these last several years.
In order for the Wii U to succeed Nintendo must win Core gamers back, but sticking with the shitty Wii brand name and using cheaped out obsolete hardware and a gimmicky controller already has the console on thin ice right from the start. Core gamers haven't forgotten how the Wii turned out, so they will be reluctant to give its successor a chance. By sticking with the same shitty name, weak hardware, and gimmicky controls they have made winning over the core market an uphill battle. Its a battle they can still win, but like I said they needlessly put the console on thin ice and made it harder to win gamers over than it needed to be. What the console lacks in hardware capability it absolutely MUST make up for that with software. There is no room for errors this time around. If third parties don't embrace it and there are lengthy game droughts the Wii U is toast. History. Done. Game over.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 05, 2012, 12:35:27 AM
I still think the only people who care that it retains the Wii branding enough that it affects their purchasing decision are people like you and Ian who are just looking for reasons to hate the system. If it weren't that, it would be something else. If people are worried because of how the Wii turned out, changing the name isn't going to make that go away. And the controller is the same controller everyone else has plus a screen, so I'm not sure why you think that's going to turn people away.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: TJ Spyke on October 05, 2012, 12:44:13 AM
Chozo, please stop the crap and calling the Wii U GamePad a "gimmick". It's a standard controller that just has a touchscreen in it. Developers can even ignore the screen and treat it the same as any other controller. The "Wii" brand name is not shitty.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 05, 2012, 12:53:24 AM
Guys Chozo has been doing this pretty much for several months and I think he is just doing it for attention so I think it would best to just ignore him or report him and move on.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 05, 2012, 01:23:20 AM
Quote from: NWR Staff
(http://i.imgur.com/ld3RX.jpg)
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 05, 2012, 01:29:46 AM
Well, I already wrote this whole thing so I'm posting it. Honestly, I don't think Chozo is trolling and he's not breaking any rules. I enjoy the discussion, but I've tried lately to step away before I start feeling the need to throw the f-word around. He's entitled to his opinion which I won't debate. I will inquire about his reasoning for the sake of discussion.
The market is different now then it was 6 years ago.
It sure is. The market is always changing and that's why Nintendo must continue to evolve. It remains to be seen whether Nintendo's strategy will work out though I think it's a pretty sound one. Considering what something as simple as a 2nd screen did for Ocarina of Time, I'm keeping an open mind regarding the GamePad.
You're awfully judgmental of these so-called casual suckers. Didn't they buy something they wanted just like you and me? One could argue that we're all suckers for paying thousands to interact with moving shapes on a screen.
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In order for the Wii U to succeed Nintendo must win Core gamers back, but sticking with the shitty Wii brand name and using cheaped out obsolete hardware and a gimmicky controller already has the console on thin ice right from the start.
I love how you're so hung up on the "gimmicky" controller when it's just a regular controller with a screen on it. Unlike the Wii Remote, it's not limiting in the least. In fact, it offers MORE options. Nintendo took a traditional controller and added to it and yet it's for casual gamers somehow. I don't understand your reasoning whatsoever.
You're also hung up on the "obsolete" hardware despite the fact that you've proven to know nothing about how hardware works. I can't even count how many times you've trashed the CPU based on clock speed of all things, as if it's that simple (hint: it's not). Home consoles will always be outclassed by PCs. That doesn't render home consoles obsolete. It's not the hardware itself; it's what developers can do with it. The Wii U is a more modern design. You insist that Nintendo "cheaped out." That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that they have valued optimization and efficiency for over 10 years now. The Xbox didn't run circles around Gamecube despite having better numbers on paper. We're simply not going to see the same drastic jump from standard definition to high definition ever again so if you're expecting a repeat of the Wii vs. PS3/360 in terms of graphics, you're wasting your time. The sad truth is that it's been 6-7 years and current generation games are still really, really expensive to produce. And you want even more powerful hardware that demands higher budgets and longer development cycles? How much better will they even look? Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 05, 2012, 01:48:26 AM
Chozo, please stop the crap and calling the Wii U GamePad a "gimmick". It's a standard controller that just has a touchscreen in it. Developers can even ignore the screen and treat it the same as any other controller.
I know that. But that doesn't change the fact it really is a gimmick. Do you know what the definition of gimmick is? This fits the definition. Keep in mind a gimmick is not necessarily a bad thing. What is a bad thing, however, is how expensive it is.
I already explained this anyway just a few posts back. Why are you ignoring those posts like they didn't even happen?
Yes it is. It is shitty both because the name is stupid, and also because it is associated with dust collecting casual waggleware. So there's actually two reasons why its shitty.
If you disagree and think the Wii brand is awesome, that's fine. That's your opinion. But its not the opinion of the majority of core gamers. My point is simply that it makes winning over core gamers an uphill battle for Nintendo. As I said, its a battle they can still win, but they are on thin ice already.
Guys Chozo has been doing this pretty much for several months and I think he is just doing it for attention so I think it would best to just ignore him or report him and move on.
Report me for what exactly? For telling it like it is?
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 05, 2012, 01:53:30 AM
Guys Chozo has been doing this pretty much for several months and I think he is just doing it for attention so I think it would best to just ignore him or report him and move on.
As obnoxious as Chozo may be being, he's not currently breaking any forum rules, so please don't report him, as those reports get sent to me and are very annoying to get when they aren't legitimate.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: broodwars on October 05, 2012, 01:56:50 AM
I don't like the Wii branding and I think it conjures more bad gaming memories than good, but for better or worse we're stuck with it now so...whatever. My big problems with the Wii U have always been...
1. Nintendo's appalling refusal to share specifics about the console and their plans for it, especially on features I actually care about. For instance, I'm a fan of trophy hunting on PS3. The Wii U allegedly supports an achievement-type system, so why does no one seem to want to talk about it? Why has Nintendo said NOTHING about a Wii U Virtual Console?
For that matter, online is only getting more important in the gaming industry, so how are we now less than 2 months away from launch and we still know very little about anything related to the Wii U's online infrastructure other than some basics on Miiverse (and a rewards program exclusive to the Premium model that's only vaguely defined outside of Japan)? This isn't the N64 or GameCube days. The Internet matters, and how your company is going to handle it in your new console isn't something you just dump in a Nintendo Direct a month before launch. It's like how the 3DS launched without its eShop. This doesn't tell me that Nintendo's biding their time before letting us in on their plan. It tells me they don't HAVE a plan, and they want me to dump $350 into this thing?
2. Nintendo's packed the Wii U with so many features I don't give a damn about that do nothing for me to add value to the purchase, like Miiverse; TViii; and the artificial "crisis" of having to share TVs when my house has at least 4 HD TVs, and these days it seems to be all they want to talk about. Yet they've skimped on all the little things that would add value for me, like not being able to upscale Wii games into HD; likely not being able to play Virtual Console games with the GamePad; and not being able to play even certain Classic Controller-compatibleWii games with the GamePad. These are the little things that require perhaps a great deal of extra work to implement and possibly would not have been cost-effective, but man their inclusion would have made such a difference to me.
3. There's just nothing in that lineup of announced exclusive games that speaks to me outside of Rayman Legends, and that's apparently not even going to be there at launch. If you only owned a Wii this last generation, you have quite a lot of quality 3rd party titles to choose from at launch, but if you didn't let Nintendo dictate your entertainment this current gen the selection is very slim. And what little there is doesn't particularly excite or interest me enough to make me say "wow, this $400+ purchase (with games) was totally worth it!" Nintendo surely has these titles, but because Nintendo stubbornly refuses to talk about games that haven't practically gone Gold already, they're refusing to show them.
The Wii branding doesn't do the console any favors for me, but in the grand scheme of problems the Wii U has for me it's relatively minor and certainly not game-breaking. There are just so many unknowns about this console, and so much of it reeks of Nintendo trying to severely lower expectations because they know they can't meet any reasonable expectations (much as they did on the Wii). We need to see details, we need to see games, and we need to see that Nintendo has a plan beyond this artificial "launch window" of theirs. Compared to that, the branding is nothing. It's meaningless. If Nintendo could instill confidence in me that I could be happy with the games this console offers, the name wouldn't matter to me in the slightest. But they haven't.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 05, 2012, 01:58:16 AM
And why pick on just me? Ian Sane and Broodwars and perhaps others have expressed similar opinions. So why am I the one getting all the heat?
If its because of my user title, that's not really my fault. Yes, I said that, but it doesn't need to be there as a constant reminder. If I could remove that I would, but I can't. It pisses people off when they see it every time I post, but its not my fault.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 05, 2012, 02:01:32 AM
I think the majority of core gamers (and people in general) are indifferent to the Wii branding. Those who either like it or dislike it are both minorities.
And the connotation of the word "gimmick" is what's problematic. It's not inherently negative, but it's usually used with a negative slant.
And why pick on just me? Ian Sane and Broodwars and perhaps others have expressed similar opinions. So why am I the one getting all the heat?
I pick on all of you. You're all horrible.
But, seriously, broodwars probably does the best job of expressing his opinion. You don't have to agree with someone to understand where they're coming from.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: broodwars on October 05, 2012, 02:04:51 AM
And why pick on just me? Ian Sane and Broodwars and perhaps others have expressed similar opinions. So why am I the one getting all the heat?
I'd like to think I'm trying to be fairly moderate in all this, all things considered. The Wii U doesn't speak to me at the moment, but one day perhaps it could. I just have a lot of concerns about the future of this device and Nintendo's reluctance to actually talk specifics.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 05, 2012, 02:12:10 AM
And why pick on just me? Ian Sane and Broodwars and perhaps others have expressed similar opinions. So why am I the one getting all the heat?
If its because of my user title, that's not really my fault. Yes, I said that, but it doesn't need to be there as a constant reminder. If I could remove that I would, but I can't. It pisses people off when they see it every time I post, but its not my fault.
I think broodwars is being too pessimistic, but he has real reasons for being apprehensive about it, as opposed to the superficiality of the branding and concerns about what is likely to be a non-issue of vague comments regarding the CPU that you're bringing to the table.
As for Ian, I think we've all learned to tune him out to an extent by now. Maybe we'll get there with you at some point if you keep this up.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 05, 2012, 02:18:43 AM
Well, I already wrote this whole thing so I'm posting it. Honestly, I don't think Chozo is trolling and he's not breaking any rules. I enjoy the discussion, but I've tried lately to step away before I start feeling the need to throw the f-word around. He's entitled to his opinion which I won't debate. I will inquire about his reasoning for the sake of discussion
Thank you.
And as I said, if its because of my user title thing don't blame me for that. I think its Uncle Bob who did that to me, but I'm not sure. There's nothing I can do about it, so I kinda decided to embrace it. If it were removed from my title I would also remove it from my signature. The reason its in my signature is my way of resisting this injustice.
You're awfully judgmental of these so-called casual suckers. Didn't they buy something they wanted just like you and me?
If they are satisfied with it then they weren't suckers by buying it, but every single person I know who owns a Wii isn't even playing it. Nowadays people use it for Netflix or the virtual console if they even use it at all. I think looking back now most people would feel that the hype they felt for the Wii in 2006-2007 was unjustified. The Wii seemed like a really awesome thing back then and everyone wanted to own it, but after playing Wii Sports for 15 minutes the enthusiasm of most people began to fizzle out. The awesome swordfighting games we thought were going to happen never showed up, except for Zelda and Red Steel. It was a disappointment.
The Wii U has a disadvantage because people aren't going to have the same level of hype for it, because they remember how the Wii turned out and will be more reluctant to buy into the whole gimmick of it. Not to mention that the touchscreen controller concept isn't really quite as revolutionary as motion controls were. Touchscreen gaming has been around for 8 years now with the DS and more recently with the uDraw tablet thing. So when people look at this they might have an attitude of "been there, done that".
Also, keep in mind that the uDraw which the Wii U gamepad was inspired by was a commercial failure which cost THQ a huge amount of money because people wouldn't buy it. This doesn't bode well for the success of the Wii U's similar concept.
I love how you're so hung up on the "gimmicky" controller when it's just a regular controller with a screen on it. Unlike the Wii Remote, it's not limiting in the least. In fact, it offers MORE options. Nintendo took a traditional controller and added to it and yet it's for casual gamers somehow. I don't understand your reasoning whatsoever.
Again, I'm fine with the gimmicks of the controller. As you said if developers don't want to use them they don't have to. Its not a big deal to me. The only issue I have is the cost of it, and how it detracts from the console itself. I think either the cost of the console went up or the specs were brought down in order to accomodate the controller. So gamers are paying for that even if they have zero interest in it.
I do agree that as a gimmick it is benign and not going to be as annoying as waggle was. But again its just the cost that bothers me. Other than that I'm totally fine with it. I would just have rather Nintendo had invested that same amount of money into making the console itself more powerful.
You're also hung up on the "obsolete" hardware despite the fact that you've proven to know nothing about how hardware works. I can't even count how many times you've trashed the CPU based on clock speed of all things, as if it's that simple (hint: it's not). Home consoles will always be outclassed by PCs. That doesn't render home consoles obsolete. It's not the hardware itself; it's what developers can do with it. The Wii U is a more modern design. You insist that Nintendo "cheaped out." That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that they have valued optimization and efficiency for over 10 years now. The Xbox didn't run circles around Gamecube despite having better numbers on paper. We're simply not going to see the same drastic jump from standard definition to high definition ever again so if you're expecting a repeat of the Wii vs. PS3/360 in terms of graphics, you're wasting your time. The sad truth is that it's been 6-7 years and current generation games are still really, really expensive to produce. And you want even more powerful hardware that demands higher budgets and longer development cycles? How much better will they even look? Good luck with that.
I don't claim to be an expert on CPUs and stuff, but I would assume these developers know their stuff. Also, its not just a matter of the clock speed. Megabyte pointed out how the CPU has only a few threads (whatever that means). So its not just clock speed where the CPU is inferior, but also threads. What that means I don't really know, but I trust Megabyte knows what he is talking about because he seems knowledgeable about that kind of stuff.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 05, 2012, 02:33:14 AM
Again, I'm fine with the gimmicks of the controller. As you said if developers don't want to use them they don't have to. Its not a big deal to me. The only issue I have is the cost of it, and how it detracts from the console itself. I think either the cost of the console went up or the specs were brought down in order to accomodate the controller. So gamers are paying for that even if they have zero interest in it.
The problem is you're basing this on nothing but your own assumptions. You assume you know the cost of the controller, and you assume to know how, and if, it affected the development of the hardware, with nothing to back it up.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Mannypon on October 05, 2012, 02:46:34 AM
Nice, there's life in the WiiU thread lol. These descussions are always fun to read.
I have a question that I'll like to pose to Chozo since he is currently in this discussion but this could be answered by any other member who sees the WiiU gamepad as a gimic.
If the PS4 and 720 ape the WiiU and implement touchscreens in their remotes, would you call their gamepads gimics?
I ask this becuase I believe this is a real posibility. The big players always ape the others inovations (usually the competion apes Nintendo after they set a standard IE shoulder buttons, analog sticks, rumble, motion controls)
I think there are a few key reasons why this will happen, especially with Microsoft.
First of all, they don't want to be left behind or feel less adequete with the gameplay features their systems provide. The WiiU gamepad can do everything a basic controller can do AND THEN SOME. This in turn would cause them to have to release another addon (such as kinect, move this current gen) during the system's life that'll never get supported due to it not being a standard feature. If they follow the status quo and push out another standard remote and the WiiU gamepad is a hit and provides very inovative uses not found on the standard controls, then there are not enough cpu cores, gigs of memory, and dual graphic cards than can overcome that disadvantage.
Second, and most importantly, the WiiU gamepad is PERFECT for Microsoft's (and Sony to a lesser extent) desire to become your entertainment hub. If they want to dominate your living room and provide multi-media services, a basic controller is not going to cut it. The best created software will never overcome the disadvantages of navigating an OS (along with facebook, Youtube, Amazon, and any other software they want to provide) with an analog stick, buttons, and/or some rediculious verbal commands and strange hand gestures with kinect.
The touchscreen just seems like a natural evolution to controllers based on where technology is going. Tablets and touch phones are all the rage and there are no signs of it letting off in the coming future.
So again, this is just my opinion, but I'd say everyone should be learning to accept this touchscreen gamepad "gimic" as it'll soon become the standard. I'll be blindsided if Sony and MS don't come out with some type of touchscreen remote or the like for their next gen systems.
And if your scoffing at what Nintendo is charging for their gamepad, get ready for an ass raping from Sony and more specifically MS. I've could never believe how MS wanted to charge their insane prices for the 360 propriety harddrives and their dam usb wifi dongle. Sh*t was and still is madness.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 05, 2012, 04:44:49 AM
If the PS4 and 720 ape the WiiU and implement touchscreens in their remotes, would you call their gamepads gimics?
When Nintendo introduced the D-Pad for the first time, people who were used to Joysticks might have thought of that as a gimmick at the time, but since its introduction everyone now uses it and it is an industry standard. The same goes for shoulder buttons, analog sticks, and a bunch of other things. Perhaps the touchscreen concept will turn out that way as well. If everyone copies it and every future console continues to use it then it would no longer be just a gimmick but an industry standard.
But before that can happen the concept has to be proven. There has to be games that use it which are clearly better off because of it. If that doesn't happen then it will just be a hyped up fad for a shortwhile, and then be forgotten. There is a reason why the PS Move flopped and why Nintendo themselves are distancing themselves from motion controls with the Wii U. Waggle controls sounded good in theory, but spending tens of hours flailing your arms around in a game where a simple button press would have sufficed people learned it wasn't really all it was cracked up to be. This is why waggle controls were a gimick and continue to be a gimmick to this day. They haven't caught on as an industry standard which can replace a traditional controller. Even Nintendo agrees with this, because look how they are coming out with a traditional controller which is basically a clone of the xbox 360 controller.
Even though the Wii U preserves compatibility with the Wiimote, it seems that the Wiimote is being treated as a secondary control scheme. You can take this as a tacit admission by Nintendo that they were wrong about the whole Wiimote thing. Its not the future of gaming that they had trumpeted it as, so they've quietly swept it under the rug and went back to the drawing board. A traditional controller with a touchscreen is what they've come up with. Rather than try and reinvent the wheel like they did with the Wiimote, they decided to go back to the old traditional wheel and slap a touchscreen onto it. This is something that they can't really screw up. Again, my only concern with the whole thing is the cost. I'm fine with it in every other respect.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: MrPhishfood on October 05, 2012, 04:52:23 AM
Definition for gimmick:
A device employed to cheat, deceive, or trick, especially a mechanism for the secret and dishonest control of gambling apparatus.
An innovative or unusual mechanical contrivance; a gadget.
An innovative stratagem or scheme employed especially to promote a project: an advertising gimmick.
A significant feature that is obscured, misrepresented, or not readily evident; a catch.
I'm actually expecting Microsoft and Sony's next consoles to include some kind of gimmick and when I say "gimmick" I don't even mean it in a negative way. I think gameplay innovation is slowly coming to a halt and gimmicks are exactly what the industry needs. Well maybe its not what the industry needs but its what I want.
With the Wii I think Nintendo missed the mark first time round. At launch they gave us the impression we were actually getting the equivalent of Wii Motion Plus. I felt Sony's Move had the most potential of this generations gimmicks but severely lacked the games to show it off.
Saying that, if Microsoft or Sony did include some kind of hardware gimmick in their next console then you can expect them to have average specifications in order to stay affordable just like the Wii U.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: MrPhishfood on October 05, 2012, 05:04:19 AM
Even though the Wii U preserves compatibility with the Wiimote, it seems that the Wiimote is being treated as a secondary control scheme. You can take this as a tacit admission by Nintendo that they were wrong about the whole Wiimote thing.
A tacit admission? That's one hell of an assumption. You're assuming Nintendo thought "oh we were wrong about the Wiimote but we'll let people use it as a secondary control scheme anyway" which doesn't really make sense.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 05, 2012, 05:54:01 AM
Even though the Wii U preserves compatibility with the Wiimote, it seems that the Wiimote is being treated as a secondary control scheme. You can take this as a tacit admission by Nintendo that they were wrong about the whole Wiimote thing.
A tacit admission? That's one hell of an assumption. You're assuming Nintendo thought "oh we were wrong about the Wiimote but we'll let people use it as a secondary control scheme anyway" which doesn't really make sense.
How else could you interpret it? They marketed the Wiimote as the future of gaming. The fact it is now only a secondary control option proves they were wrong. The reason it is preserved as a secondary control scheme is mainly because that's the only way they can maintain backwards compatibility with Wii software. If it weren't for that they might have just scrapped it entirely.
As a matter of fact, they may eventually do just that at some point in the future just like how they ultimately stripped out Gamecube ports from the Wii.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: MrPhishfood on October 05, 2012, 06:55:51 AM
How else could you interpret it? They marketed the Wiimote as the future of gaming. The fact it is now only a secondary control option proves they were wrong. The reason it is preserved as a secondary control scheme is mainly because that's the only way they can maintain backwards compatibility with Wii software. If it weren't for that they might have just scrapped it entirely.
As a matter of fact, they may eventually do just that at some point in the future just like how they ultimately stripped out Gamecube ports from the Wii.
I think its safe to say that if Nintendo thought the Wiimote was so wrong then they could keep it to maintain backward compatibility but restrict Wii U games to not use it at all. Why include something that isn't supposed to fit?
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 05, 2012, 06:58:01 AM
They stripped the GameCube ports out of the Wii to save money. The wireless nature of Wii controllers means that won't be a consideration. And the Wii remote is being used prominently by Nintendo, with certain parts of Nintendo Land requiring it and it being the primary control scheme for Pikmin 3.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Stogi on October 05, 2012, 07:03:44 AM
I think you both are right.
If Nintendo was truly committed to the Wiimote, they would have included it every box out the gate insuring developers that every person can play their game.
Now that may have been a calculation on their part, seeing as how a lot of people own a Wiimote and they are still selling it. There are also mainstream third party games like COD that allow its use so they advocate it.
But what I think might be the clue in determining their conviction is if we ever see Wii U branding on the Wiimote.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Adrock on October 05, 2012, 08:31:32 AM
Also, keep in mind that the uDraw which the Wii U gamepad was inspired by was a commercial failure which cost THQ a huge amount of money because people wouldn't buy it.
That is patently false. Unless you think Nintendo's research and development department is comprised of time travelers and wizards, the GamePad was most likely inspired by the Dreamcast VMU, GCN-GBA comnectivity, and most importantly, DS.
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The only issue I have is the cost of it, and how it detracts from the console itself. I think either the cost of the console went up or the specs were brought down in order to accomodate the controller. So gamers are paying for that even if they have zero interest in it.
People buy things with features they don't want/will ever use all the time. My PS3 "only does everything," but really, I need it to play movies and sometimes games. It probably does things I don't even know exists. I'm not complaining that I'm paying for those things because the PS3 does what I bought it to do.
The difference here is that the Wii U revolves around the GamePad. People are only paying for it when they buy the console. I can't imagine anyone buying one if they were that adamantly against using the GamePad. It's part of a package. Consoles aren't build-your-own products so you don't get to choose what comes with it. "I have no interest in the GamePad." Well, then, you don't want a Wii U because every game is going to use that controller. You don't get to complain about having to pay for one since you haven't paid for one yet. If you ever do, you still don't get to complain because you know what you're paying for. That said, it's extremely silly to use that as a mark against the Wii U. There's nothing wrong with not wanting a Wii U. That's your prerogative. However, your reasoning is baffling.
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Megabyte pointed out how the CPU has only a few threads (whatever that means).
If you don't know what it means and you're admittedly not an expert, how are you so convinced that it's as bad as you're making it out to be?
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Soren on October 05, 2012, 09:21:06 AM
How else could you interpret it? They marketed the Wiimote as the future of gaming. The fact it is now only a secondary control option proves they were wrong. The reason it is preserved as a secondary control scheme is mainly because that's the only way they can maintain backwards compatibility with Wii software. If it weren't for that they might have just scrapped it entirely.
You're right. I mean we're certainly not going to need to use our Wiimote for Wii U games. It's not like Nintendo has shown we'll put our Wiimote to good use on WiiU software.
Oh wait...
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Ian Sane on October 05, 2012, 01:41:59 PM
Quote
If the PS4 and 720 ape the WiiU and implement touchscreens in their remotes, would you call their gamepads gimics?
Sony and MS copied motion control with Move and Kinect and I sure see those as gimmicks. It's all in the implementation. Motion control has mostly stuck to shallow casual fare and often makes games HARDER to control because of the lack of precision. It arguably makes games control worse but it has good marketing potential. Designing a controller for marketing purposes is a gimmick. It contributes nothing of true value but rubes eat it up so it sticks around.
I would no longer call the screen a gimmick if it was consistently implemented in a way that demonstrated it as essential. Stuff like the d-pad and L&R buttons and analog stick proved their worth almost immediately and so many games use them and in a way where you can't really imagine them using anything else. Something like the clicky buttons on the Cube controller were minor but were essentially gimmicks because they just didn't add much and very few games made use of them. They were merely an option, however, and they had no real financial impact so it doesn't matter.
The screen idea has been done before. They did it with the Cube-GBA connectivity. The DS and 3DS have it. In that time I have not seen anything to suggest the concept as anything beyond a gimmick that some games use for novelty purposes and some other games shoehorn in in a control-breaking way. The DS really took off once developers stopped trying so hard to use the touchscreen and just made "normal" games. If it was a new concept I would be more willing to give it a chance but it's not. Nintendo needed a gimmick like they had with Wii and that kind of stuff is hard to think of so they just took the DS concept and turned it into a console.
I don't actually care about the system being called "Wii U". I would never not buy a system because it had a dumb name. But the whole thing thus far looks like a continuation of the Wii formula and I'm not interested in that. The specs issue stems mostly from fear of the specs being underpowered as that is the primary cause of the Wii's problems last gen. Nintendo could easily set things straight by telling us the specs or having games that actually look impressive compared to PS360 games. But they don't so the concern will remain until the system is out and someone cracks the damn thing open and takes a look. The fact that they constantly talk about how it compares to THIS gen doesn't help because we don't care how it compares to THIS gen. That's like saying the Wii is powerful than the Xbox. Well, yeah it is, but what does that matter? That was never the concern.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Stogi on October 05, 2012, 03:38:22 PM
Nintendo could easily set things straight by telling us the specs or having games that actually look impressive compared to PS360 games.....The fact that they constantly talk about how it compares to THIS gen doesn't help because we don't care how it compares to THIS gen....That was never the concern.
I think I just found the first FHATTIE nominee.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: MrPhishfood on October 05, 2012, 03:56:05 PM
If the PS4 and 720 ape the WiiU and implement touchscreens in their remotes, would you call their gamepads gimics?
Sony and MS copied motion control with Move and Kinect and I sure see those as gimmicks. It's all in the implementation. Motion control has mostly stuck to shallow casual fare and often makes games HARDER to control because of the lack of precision. It arguably makes games control worse but it has good marketing potential. Designing a controller for marketing purposes is a gimmick. It contributes nothing of true value but rubes eat it up so it sticks around.
Aside from Wii Sports Resort and Zelda: Skyward Sword, motion controls on the Wii have been pretty lackluster. On the other hand, pointer controls work wonderfully for shooters like Metroid Prime Trilogy and Goldeneye.
PS Move works well, but the constant recalibration is tedious. I hated Sports Champions, and I thought Killzone 3's controls were too "floaty". I actually hope Sony continues supporting the Move, because it has a lot of potential. In the game Tumble (a block-stacking puzzle game), you have full 360-degree motion controls, which gives the illusion of actually "reaching into" the screen.
Kinect is nothing but lag. Everytime I play it at Best Buy, it fails to recognize my movements.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: Oblivion on October 07, 2012, 05:14:23 PM
Tendo, play Red Steel 2.
Title: Re: Wii U's launch price(s): Is it worth it?
Post by: toddra on October 28, 2012, 04:03:53 PM
I think the launch price is certainly fair considering what you get. Plus I have owned every single Nintendo console ever made so I am biased but this one I am excited about, Wii I was not so much. I bought a Wii but I regretted doing so until the day I sold it.
