Looks like the steambox may be real after all. http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/2/2840932/exclusive-valve-steam-box-gaming-console
Honestly this seems like a good thing as the Mac and Windows app store becomes the go to place. Valve obviously have ambitions of expanding steam and having their own hardware and OS could help.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: ShyGuy on September 03, 2012, 10:53:05 PM
Good for them. PC Gaming needs a kick in the pants
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 03, 2012, 11:18:49 PM
They pointed out that "even in basic input, the keyboard and mouse, haven't really changed much in any meaningful way over the years," so...they might just be making new input devices.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 03, 2012, 11:53:21 PM
They pointed out that "even in basic input, the keyboard and mouse, haven't really changed much in any meaningful way over the years," so...they might just be making new input devices.
It could be both. Probably best if they do both, because that way if the Steambox fails for whatever reason, they could then fall back on the input devices just like what ended up happening with that Phantom console thing years ago. Its wise to have a plan B in place in case plan A doesn't work out.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: ThePerm on September 04, 2012, 12:08:12 AM
i was thinking this constantly for the last few years, keyboards need a paradigm shift.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: ShyGuy on September 04, 2012, 01:02:41 AM
Keyboards are really stuck in the same old spot. What was the last big thing? The Windows Key?
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 04, 2012, 01:34:05 AM
What if someone took the motion gimmick of the wiimote and combined it with a keyboard into some new weird hybrid thing? You remember the video at E3 of the Wii U tablet being able to snap onto the Wii Zapper? Well what if there was a PC Zapper equivalent, and then a keyboard could snap on to the back, and then a mouse could go where the nunchuck goes... but on top of all that, you can also use the motion control aspect of the PC Zapper. Imagine how such a device would revolutionize PC Gaming.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: ThePerm on September 04, 2012, 01:45:02 AM
i say get rid of the number pad and the f keys, replace the number pad with a touch screen and then add several new buttons, or make the function keys legitimately function keys. I have a few ideas really. I would get rid of keys all together, but i like the feel of keys.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: oohhboy on September 04, 2012, 02:15:57 AM
Honestly this seems like a good thing as the Mac and Windows app store becomes the go to place. Valve obviously have ambitions of expanding steam and having their own hardware and OS could help.
For games there is no reason to ever shop in those two stores. You are far better off getting it direct from the developer, Steam for Steamplay or online stores like Good old Games. Both of those OS shops are bottom of the barrel in the places you could go.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Oblivion on September 04, 2012, 02:19:29 AM
I want Nintendo and Valve to merge. Aww yiss
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: oohhboy on September 04, 2012, 02:42:51 AM
Thankfully Nintendo blew off EA and Origin. Had Nintendo decided to use EA's system, I would have sworn off Nintendo forever. However Nintendo and Valve would never happen as Nintendo values it's independence too much. Nintendo as the hardware maker would also bear a disproportionate amount of the risk in such a partnership no matter how low Valve's cut of the sales would be. From Valve's position, getting any cut of the sale would be near free money for them in comparison to the amount of risk and work they would have to do to set up the store.
What Nintendo needs to do to get a proper online system is to get over their hang ups and outright paranoia about going on line.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: shingi_70 on September 04, 2012, 02:44:34 AM
Of course the mac and windows store will be inferior to steam. The prooblem is for the average user the windows and mac app store are enough and as those platforms get more mature they could rival steam for gaming. (Not likely)
But vavle wants to expand steam and the venture into non gaming software shows they want to grow their market past the already established gamer market. That's where the windows and mac app stores become a problem.
Wonder if this would be a console like entity or Vavles own linux based PC. It could even be both.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 04, 2012, 03:52:53 AM
Honestly this seems like a good thing as the Mac and Windows app store becomes the go to place. Valve obviously have ambitions of expanding steam and having their own hardware and OS could help.
For games there is no reason to ever shop in those two stores. You are far better off getting it direct from the developer, Steam for Steamplay or online stores like Good old Games. Both of those OS shops are bottom of the barrel in the places you could go.
Speaking as a Mac gamer, if I'm buying a game that's not available on Steam, which is most major releases, I'd much rather deal with Apple's system than Aspyr's or Feral's. I like what Aspyr's trying to do with GameAgent, but I have a lot more confidence in Apple being around a decade from now than any of those porting houses.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: MegaByte on September 04, 2012, 05:44:22 AM
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: oohhboy on September 04, 2012, 05:50:07 AM
Aspyr, VP and Feral system is a bit annoying, but that's a product of their own business model. Had they they negotiated porting contracts that didn't require them to make the sales themselves, the Mac gaming scene as a whole would be much healthier. While the ports are welcome, it's not a very good system where everybody loses out in one way or another. However a lot of this is due to the apathy of the original developers.
I would get rid of keys all together, but i like the feel of keys.
What if the keys were literally keys which you then put into a keyhole and turned? In my opinion this is what a keyboard should be... a board for keys.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: ShyGuy on September 04, 2012, 09:39:36 AM
What about the ergonomic split keyboards?
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 04, 2012, 11:26:58 AM
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Ian Sane on September 04, 2012, 12:12:55 PM
Those of you suggesting changes to keyboards, you do realize these things aren't just made for GAMES, right? The computer keyboard isn't a videogame controller at all. It's just been shoehorned into that role. You can't just experiment with new keyboard designs without taking into account the non-gaming functionality a computer is used for.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Ceric on September 04, 2012, 01:21:02 PM
The keyboard stuff is a joke. The Keyboard is probably the oldest piece of PC tech we regularly use to this day (Considering it was original part of the Typewriter which pre-dates computer by a good degree, in fact it might be the the oldest thing besides the fan.)
Mouse has room for change but, we are all so use to it. Voice would be awesome.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 04, 2012, 01:41:04 PM
It sounds good in theory, just like how waggle control sounded good in theory. The problem with both of them is they are horribly imprecise. You will want something to happen, but it will get registered differently and then something else completely different ends up happening. Its very frustrating. At least with a keyboard it does exactly what you tell it to. Sure, you can make typos by hitting the wrong keys, but if you do that's not the keyboard's fault.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Ian Sane on September 04, 2012, 02:36:43 PM
There is a simple problem with voice commands - it makes noise. Have you never used your computer at night while others in the same house have gone to bed? Do you think they want to hear you talking to your computer while they're trying to sleep? Sometimes I'll be on my PC while my brother is in the same room watching TV. If I had to speak commands the whole time he would constantly be telling me to shut up. How do you do this in a computer lab at a school or at the library? Of course the imprecise nature of it that Chozo pointed out is also a big flaw with it.
Voice, like motion control, is sci-fi tech. It looks cool in a movie so everyone wants it without thinking how ridiculous impractical it would be to use in the real world. They put that stuff in movies because it looks cool and is more visual stimulating then seeing someone slowly working a normal computer.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Ceric on September 04, 2012, 02:51:44 PM
You see the problem is that we already have a very refined letter input device. We have a very refined virtual poking tool. You have to go somewhere and anywhere we go from here is more and more niche except Mind Control and that's at least 10-30 years till something practical and reliable.
So if you want to be thinking beyond today's inputs you'll have to think about the niche. Voice Commands are still the most promising. Most people now how to speak and give command this way every day. Rarely do you write a note and then hand it to someone to give them direction.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: shingi_70 on September 04, 2012, 03:28:51 PM
I dunno I use voice controls on my xbox and for google now. They work pretty well.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 04, 2012, 04:01:59 PM
Aspyr, VP and Feral system is a bit annoying, but that's a product of their own business model. Had they they negotiated porting contracts that didn't require them to make the sales themselves, the Mac gaming scene as a whole would be much healthier. While the ports are welcome, it's not a very good system where everybody loses out in one way or another. However a lot of this is due to the apathy of the original developers.
All true, but I'm just saying the Mac App Store is preferable and has a more secure future than the DRM systems implemented by those companies, in response to your claim that there's no reason to shop there for games. Though for smaller stuff that can be had DRM free and most likely also on Steam, you're right.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: oohhboy on September 04, 2012, 04:15:23 PM
That is true enough. but it does raise the question as to why anybody would pay $50 for a five year old game like Call of Duty 4 unless you are rolling in the money. Not too sure hw long the current system would last given Steam's hugh advantages in that corner of the market. It just makes to much sense for both the developer and consumer perspective.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 04, 2012, 04:27:37 PM
Voice, like motion control, is sci-fi tech. It looks cool in a movie so everyone wants it without thinking how ridiculous impractical it would be to use in the real world. They put that stuff in movies because it looks cool and is more visual stimulating then seeing someone slowly working a normal computer.
Even with the issue of precision aside, I don't think speaking can be as fast or efficient as an old fashioned mouse or keyboard. In the amount of time it would take someone to verbally command a computer to do a certain function someone could just simply use a mouse and keyboard to cycle through a drop down menu and then have it done with a single mouse click. That's a lot easier, quicker, and simpler than saying "computer scroll down. computer highlight this. Computer cut this. Computer paste this." That's a relatively simple task, but to perform it with voice commands would take a lot of time, and I'm not really even sure how it could work... but with a mouse and keyboard you can do it in like 5 seconds.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: oohhboy on September 04, 2012, 04:50:35 PM
There are some very narrow situations where voice command makes sense when it comes to gaming. In depth wingmen commands in games like Freespace 2 which has a deep enough command tree with a lot of time and controls pressure is ripe for voice command. but most games don't need voice command and forcing it is no better than waggle or using Kinect.
Then there is the issue of voice commands having a strong North American Bias which means a lot of non-american english speaking countries either get no support or is so limited it is rendered useless. Forget other langauges if english can't get it's act together.
Here is a situation (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7607653/PMs-Koiwoi-eccent-sparks-diplomatic-incident) where even professional humans get it wrong even though to a native speaker it is unambiguous and clear. Machines don't stand a chance.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Ceric on September 04, 2012, 04:55:33 PM
You guys are picking examples that are horrible for Voice command.
Searching for a specific file. Opening Programs. Doing something while your hands are already occupied with the mouse and keyboard. Just think of anything in your life where you need someone else to do something. I need a different tool soon while working on the car I'll send my son to get it not because he can find it faster but because I can finish what I'm doing and its more efficient. I need vent to start running while I'm login into MMO. Etc.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: shingi_70 on September 04, 2012, 05:11:02 PM
Your assuming someone is always at their computer in the first place.
And in all honestly the mouse at least probably wont go through any big changes. The reality is the mouse going forward will become more niche so to speak.
Touchscreens and touchpads are going to become the norm sooner and not later. This is mostly the by product of the slowing desktop market.
Look at all the windows 8 hardware that has been shown off. Most of it has been Hybrids,Convertibles, and Ultravbooks with touchscreens. That and windows 8 kind of sucking with a mouse but being great with a touchscreen/touchpad is evidence.
Apple too has been about the gestures the past few years as well.
And don't get me wrong the mouse isn't going away as their are times I need it because a touchpad isn't precise but it hasn't something I have used on a day to day basis at home for about 3 years.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: oohhboy on September 04, 2012, 05:19:41 PM
MacOS and OSX have had voice command of that type for years, but it is mostly used by disabled people. Setting up the system to do anything else but the most basic commands built into the system uses far more effort than to do it normally and that is assuming that the computer picks up every word correctly or that the computer is even listening at the time so it doesn't drop half the sentence. It can and does work, but for the average person it just isn't worth that kind of effort.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: ThePerm on September 04, 2012, 06:35:37 PM
Those of you suggesting changes to keyboards, you do realize these things aren't just made for GAMES, right? The computer keyboard isn't a videogame controller at all. It's just been shoehorned into that role. You can't just experiment with new keyboard designs without taking into account the non-gaming functionality a computer is used for.
im not just talking about altering the keyboard for gaming, i'm more talking about making a keyboard more functional then an Ipad. desktops are stuck in a rut. There are some advantages to desktops that the others don't offer, but also disadvantages.
Evolve or go extinct.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Morari on September 04, 2012, 10:29:00 PM
The Wheel has been stuck in a rut for thousands of years, but there's no reason to reinvent it. Just like how graphics can hit a wall where they can no longer be substantially improved, so too does it go with other things. There's a limit to how much you can improve something. Any further improvements of the keyboard's basic layout and design would be minimal at best. Sure, a touch pad or something like that could be grafted on, but there isn't going to be a radical overhaul (and there doesn't need to be either).
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: ShyGuy on September 05, 2012, 02:25:52 AM
Old people scared of change, or common sense preservation?
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: ShyGuy on September 05, 2012, 02:36:27 AM
There IS room for improvement. Check this out, the Razer Blade laptop.
Such simple yet brilliant improvements. Move the touchpad from it's awkward home below the keyboard to the right side, and turn it into a mini touch screen with ten programmable picture keys.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: ThePerm on September 05, 2012, 04:30:10 AM
that's basically what I was talking about, but that's a laptop not a desktop. I'm not talking about getting rid of most of the keys or duct taping a lot of new stuff. I'm talking about little improvements. Some things have gaming in mind. If I were to design a computer from the ground up. Obviously, the typing part of the keyboard would have to be kept in tact. I was reading an article on how qwerty came to be a couple of months ago and it was cool. How many of us use the second window key? The arrows are there, but how many games use them for movement? There are a lot of ways you could make a keyboard nicer.
If I were to make a PC though it would need a newer custom operating system.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: shingi_70 on September 05, 2012, 08:52:18 AM
Huh a gaming computer that doesn't look like crap.
And isn't that more of a keyboard fix. If it doesn't come with the sektop people aren't likely to use. I recall seeing an iphone app that did the same thing and let you customize your game per configuration.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Stogi on September 05, 2012, 11:23:16 AM
You will never be able to get past a letter input device like a keyboard. It has to be there or at least available. Where innovation can come is through other avenues of input such as touch, motion, sound, and even expression. But really the most potential lies in how the computer interacts with you and not it; i.e. A.I. There are things I do countless times on my PC but that I have to repeat constantly; for example, producing music, writing a document, and browsing the internet. Why can't my computer index my past papers and learn from them to the point where I can give it a topic and the appropriate information and it will write it for me in a syntax close or very close to my own? Why can't my PC look over my past musical projects and produce one of its own? And finally, why can't my computer offer new ideas of collaboration based on articles on the internet that I have read (refrigerator bed anyone?)?
Obviously we don't have the technology available to where any person with a reasonable amount of money can buy it, but it does exist and it will happen eventually.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Louieturkey on September 05, 2012, 02:35:57 PM
How about a keyboard like this? (http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/) Configure the keyboard any way you want.
Title: Re: Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business
Post by: Ceric on September 05, 2012, 04:55:31 PM
How about a keyboard like this? (http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/) Configure the keyboard any way you want.
The problem is no one would actually use it in any sort of inventive way because you would meet a keyboard in the wild and be pretty much fucked trying to conform to the norm.
