Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MegaByte on January 21, 2011, 02:12:36 PM
I agree with a lot of his observations, but I'm not yet willing to make that sort of prediction.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Kytim89 on January 21, 2011, 02:58:18 PM
This is understandable considering that Nintendo designs their consoles to be one step behind the competition but at the same time ahead of it in some sense. It seems that Nintendo is anticipating that Sony will surpass the 3DS in graphics and that is what they want: Repeat the DS versus PSP battle and hope that is goes in Nintendo's favour this time. However, lightning does not strike twice.
To be honest, I do not mind the 3DS having PSP level graphics because I have never owned a PSP and I have to admit that I was getting slightly board with the DS and was considering moving over to the PSP. The 3DS helped keep my interest in Nintendo's handheld for a little longer.
I do see a potential danger from Nintendo's two main handheld competitors, Apple and Sony, finding a way to beat the 3DS this round. Apple could release a cheaper, more game oriented Iphone with 3D for casuals with cheap DS/3DS-esque games and then Sony could reinforce the PSP 2 with a better 3D because they have a more robust technological base than Nintendo and then put the 3DS in a pincer attack. I am curious to see how Nintendo beats both Apple and Sony this time with the 3DS.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: nickmitch on January 21, 2011, 03:04:15 PM
I just don't believe that there's as much overlap between the iPhone market and the 3DS market as he does. By that I mean, I don't think there's that many people who will say, "Why would I buy a 3DS when I can play games on my smartphone?"
And then there's what BNM posted (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30917.msg651579#msg651579), which negates one of his major points.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 21, 2011, 03:32:26 PM
To be honest, I do not mind the 3DS having PSP level graphics because I have never owned a PSP and I have to admit that I was getting slightly board with the DS and was considering moving over to the PSP. The 3DS helped keep my interest in Nintendo's handheld for a little longer.
It's a good thing the 3DS doesn't have PSP level graphics. It's much closer to Wii level than PSP level. and if you put a PSP game next to a 3DS game, you will see how much better the best looking 3DS "launch window" game looks in comparison to the best looking PSP game period.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Ian Sane on January 21, 2011, 03:47:37 PM
By portable standards the 3DS seems pretty cutting edge to me. If it's a generation behind then the DS was as well. The DS was a clear step up from the GBA and the 3DS is a clear step up from the DS. It seems like a logical and reasonable upgrade.
With the Wii it wasn't one lone guy from Wired.com pointing out how last gen it was. Everyone noticed it from day one. Day one it was "WTF?! These look like Gamecube games!" And then Nintendo was hiding the specs and being all coy and then we squeezed "2 or 3 times as powerful" from them. It was clear that motion control was the only thing impressive at all about the Wii. But with the 3DS it isn't just the 3D. The graphics are impressing almost everyone. Even if the PSP2 has better specs it's clear the 3DS is a step up and is not relying on a gimmick alone to differentiate it from its predecessor.
As for the iPhone I think it is a threat. The DS had its share of non-gamers that bought Brain Age and dick all else. iPhone games may be good enough for them and are way cheaper and that demographic wants an iPhone more than any videogame system. I think that's a very real threat. You can say iPhone games are junk but when does this matter with non-gamers? I think a dedicated videogame handheld is going to be more for the videogame enthusiast who needs more than Angry Birds.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: KisakiProject on January 21, 2011, 04:01:54 PM
I was actually thinking a lot of this before he posted it. I agree on every point.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 21, 2011, 07:31:54 PM
Okay, so some quote unquote "analyst" is making doom and gloom predictions about upcoming Nintendo hardware? Why does this seem so familiar?
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Shaymin on January 21, 2011, 07:47:17 PM
Kohler's not normally the type to go "zomg nintendo's going 3rd party", and with the 3DS store coming in day 1 by way of patch, the argument is weakened. Still, it is something to consider.
Still, Nintendo has enough IP to carry this system on its own for a generation.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 22, 2011, 02:09:32 AM
So a handheld that has cutting edge 3D technology, something hasn't been seen before on handhelds, and one of the strongest 3rd party lineups at launch of any of their handhelds is now going to fail? Right, sounds like last generation with DS vs PSP.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: tyrian3 on January 22, 2011, 08:45:24 AM
I read the whole article, and I don't see any reason to call him a troll. Actually I agree with many of the points raised in that piece and share a fair amount of skepticism with the author. After E3 I started saving up for a day-1 purchase, but in the following months my excitement cooled off and now I decided not to buy one for at least several months after its release, or maybe even wait for a "lite" 18-24 months after the launch.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Sarail on January 22, 2011, 08:55:12 AM
I think I've decided I'm gonna wait and buy the 3DS once Kid Icarus releases. That's the only major release fueling any fire I have for the system. Oh, and also a new Monster Hunter. I can only imagine how epic that game will be on the 3DS. Super psyched for that.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 22, 2011, 10:11:09 AM
There is no way the 3DS could possibly be a failure when it is building off of the DS (the most popular system of all time). Just the fact that it is reverse compatible with the DS is enough to guarantee it some success. It also carries on the widely recognized "DS" name brand.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 22, 2011, 01:55:16 PM
It also has the second biggest buzz word of the day in it's name, the only way the name could be more buzz worthy on top of being recognized was if they called it the Nintendo 3DS HD
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MegaByte on January 22, 2011, 01:59:27 PM
There is no way the 3DSPS3 could possibly be a failure when it is building off of the DSPS2 (the most popular system of all time). Just the fact that it is reverse compatible with the DSPS2 is enough to guarantee it some success. It also carries on the widely recognized "DSPlayStation" name brand.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: nickmitch on January 22, 2011, 02:09:48 PM
There is no way the 3DSPS3 could possibly be a failure when it is building off of the DSPS2 (the most popular system of all time). Just the fact that it is reverse compatible with the DSPS2 is enough to guarantee it some success. It also carries on the widely recognized "DSPlayStation" name brand.
Which can be countered with "five hundred and ninety-nine US dollars" and "giant enemy crabs" and "Riiiiiiiiiiidge RACER!!" Sony killed the hype of its own machine. I think the 3DS is maintaining its steam going in to the release date.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 22, 2011, 02:22:39 PM
There is no way the 3DSPS3 could possibly be a failure when it is building off of the DSPS2 (the most popular system of all time). Just the fact that it is reverse compatible with the DSPS2 is enough to guarantee it some success. It also carries on the widely recognized "DSPlayStation" name brand.
Which can be countered with "five hundred and ninety-nine US dollars" and "giant enemy crabs" and "Riiiiiiiiiiidge RACER!!" Sony killed the hype of its own machine. I think the 3DS is maintaining its steam going in to the release date.
Exactly, E3 was a BOMB for Sony, the seeds were already sewn for it to do poorly out of the gate. 3DS had MAJOR hype at E3 and that hype continues now. Even the price point, while not loved by people is far from the negativity PS3's price of $600 received. The similarities between the two systems is strained at best, not to mention the hype of the Wii also contributed to the PS3's lackluster start along with the 360 being released a year previous. There is no similarity between the situations, right now there is nothing comparable to 3DS.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MaryJane on January 22, 2011, 02:34:12 PM
Also, the PS3 is not a failure, it's just in 3rd place, or 2nd place depending on how you look at it.
Another thing to consider is that is unlikely that the PSP2 will be less than $300, and if Apple releases a 3D iPhone it will probably be $250 or more because I imagine they would also release a non-3D $200 model or just figure that having 3D (with a slider or option to turn it off) is as good a reason as any to boost the price and thus their profits. So the 3DS is competitively priced against its competition.
I really think that the only that could hamper 3DS sales is its lack of a phone. If you can do Skype over Wifi, that might save it, but a 4G antenna in the revision, along with a price drop to $150 through wireless carrier subsidies would solve that... Almost makes me wish the 3DS would fail so Nintendo would be forced to add it... almost.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MegaByte on January 22, 2011, 02:38:42 PM
Also, the PS3 is not a failure, it's just in 3rd place, or 2nd place depending on how you look at it.
PS3 blew all the profits generated by the previous gen. What do you consider failure?
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: ThePerm on January 22, 2011, 06:50:03 PM
i have one of Kohler's books, and all i can just say is he's being a journalist. I think he's wrong though. You can't compare Nintendo to Sony in handhelds because they have a 21 year old track record of successful handheld game systems. If the system has the games, then people will buy it. 3DS will have the games. It will have Nintendo made games which are generally million sellers out of the gate, and it will have some of the best 3rd party franchises. Sony can't claim this, and apple can't claim this. They only get half of that equation.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 22, 2011, 07:15:44 PM
There is no way the 3DSPS3 could possibly be a failure when it is building off of the DSPS2 (the most popular system of all time). Just the fact that it is reverse compatible with the DSPS2 is enough to guarantee it some success. It also carries on the widely recognized "DSPlayStation" name brand.
That would be a good point, except that I don't think the PS3 could really be considered a failure. It had a VERY slow start (thanks to the $600 price tag mainly), but now that its at a more reasonable price its selling well. Even though its in 3rd place you can't call it a failure because the sales of it are actually on the rise, so its not like its on a downward spiral like the Dreamcast was.
The $249 price tag of the 3DS is a bit steep by handheld standards ($100 more than the original DS), but at least its not $600, so I don't think the reason for the PS3's sluggish growth really applies here. Its going to sell well, maybe not at first because it comes out in March which isn't a strong time of year for sales, but after awhile those after burners will kick in.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 22, 2011, 08:05:12 PM
PS3 succeeded in being the #1 Bluray player world wide. But it failed at keeping the Playstation brand as the #1 console in gaming today. It failed pretty bad in that area. Not a total loss, but definitely not up to expectations.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MaryJane on January 22, 2011, 08:09:24 PM
The Wii succeeded in being the number one console but largely failed in being a "serious" gaming machine. You gotta take what you can get, and sales for any reason are still sales.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: SixthAngel on January 23, 2011, 01:13:34 AM
There is already something that is analagous to this situation. PC and consoles.
A pc is a multitasking device that people already have that plays games with a default control set. Consoles let you play on a bigger screen with better controls and are simplified to a single version that all the games play on. Its an extremely similar situation except the i stuff has almost none of the kind of games that acutally sell on the current ds. If the 3ds has the games people want to play people will buy it. Its that simple
Complaining that the online store will have to be downloaded (probably on launch day) is bullshit. It will probably be available on launch or close to it so this will have almost no effect. With his emphasis on DD he is like a lot of people talk about DD being the future; they forget that the future is not now. It is in the future because it can't happen now for whatever reason.
I also see big potential problems with a 3d touch screen. I get the feeling the 3ds has the 3d only on top for a reason.
Its a good troll. He basically says how amazing the 3ds and then says what if, what if, what if, what if.
The Wii succeeded in being the number one console but largely failed in being a "serious" gaming machine. You gotta take what you can get, and sales for any reason are still sales.
I believe it is currently the number one console of all time for this time in their lifecycles. Don't put some bullshit "serious" moniker after it.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Guitar Smasher on January 23, 2011, 01:37:00 AM
The Wii succeeded in being the number one console but largely failed in being a "serious" gaming machine. You gotta take what you can get, and sales for any reason are still sales.
I believe it is currently the number one console of all time for this time in their lifecycles. Don't put some bullshit "serious" moniker after it.
Well most people did buy it for its Blu-ray capabilities. OH WAIT.
Actually, I take it back. Most people bought it for Netflix. "Serious" would be like saying it's sold more total software this gen than PS3 or 360.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MaryJane on January 23, 2011, 10:40:56 AM
I really don't want to start this argument in this thread, but a lot of Wii owners are disapointed with it. And that is mostly because it doesn't get the serious, hardcore, mass appeal, cross-platform, RPGs, FPSs, sandbox, and some other type of game/inconsequential moniker used to simply make a point about the type of games the Wii does not get or gets in extremely gimped form. And I would even go as far as to say that Little Big Planet is better than a lot, if not most, if not all, the creative, blue ocean, casual games on the Wii. The motion controls of the Wii are intuitive and make some game better, but the lack of system power means the games (3rd party) are 2nd class. The games, or rather the lack thereof, is what I meant by the Wii not being a serious gaming machine, a serious gaming machine needs serious games, not the casual, dumbed-down games we mostly get. Don't get me wrong, I like my Wii, but I wish it had more serious games.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: SixthAngel on January 23, 2011, 11:33:26 AM
Lets not turn this thread into some kind of "hardcore vs. casual" debate. Can we all ignore MaryJane bringing that into it and start talking about thie actual article again?
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MaryJane on January 23, 2011, 12:29:32 PM
You're the one who started it...
Someone said the PS3 was a failure, and that opened the possibilty of the 3DS being a failure because of their predecessors doing well and parenting company making mistakes with the systems. I said the PS3 isn't a failure, and compared that to the how/why the Wii sold (being casual vs. serious).
My whole point is that sales are sales, if the PS3 sold because of BluRay, good for Sony, if the Wii sold because of casual games, good for Nintendo, if the 3DS sells because of 3D, so be it! Sales are sales are sales.
In my last post I simply tried to clarify the point of what I meant by "serious" and started by saying let's not turn this thread into that debate.
Don't be a dick. You started the debate by responding to a rather inconsequential part of my post, and I tried to end it by clarifying, because you obviously didn't understand what I was trying to say and took issue with it.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: ThePerm on January 23, 2011, 12:59:30 PM
Nintendo's console numbers, and low specs have given the other consoles an opportunity to last longer in a long term console situation. Nintendo could release a new console now with a slow build-up and the other console wouldnt really be hurt. Consoles are developing symbiosis haha.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MaryJane on January 23, 2011, 06:47:44 PM
So let's talk about why the 3DS might fail.
I have 5 ideas as to why, but I'll only list one to generate discussion, and it's likely others will think of the other 4. (Btw, I didn't read the article this thread is about just the qft people listed)
The 3D of the 3DS.
I know the 3DS is also a very qualified 2D gaming machine, but the point of the system is to be 3D. With reviewers already complaining of headaches (though that seems to be confined to toying with the 3D slider too much and Madden) and the sweet spot being too limited, could it be that the 3DSs 3D is a little too early?
Autostereoscopic technology is only going to get better as it ages but this first gen iteration seems to be a little limiting, especially with the sweet spot issue. I knew there was a sweet spot, but the latest reviews make it feel like it's a 1cm x 1cm area of tolerance for that spot.
I imagine that when watching a movie on a plane or long train/bus ride, moving the system won't be much an issue, but when gaming, moving the system happens frequently, and the 3DS has a gyroscope in it.
Then there is also NWR reporting that there isn't a lot of thing popping out at you, but rather "floating in the foreground". I imagine this is another thing that will get better with the age of autostereoscopic tech, but it could be another level of disappointment for early 3DS adopters.
So now I have three questions:
1. If the 3D is disappointing in its lack of "pop", too small sweet spot, and headache infliction, will that hurt word of mouth, and thus sales?
2. Is it possible that the front facing camera of the 3DS could be used to track your eyes and move the sweet spot accordingly?
3. I actually forgot what I wanted I originally wanted to ask third, but I'll replace it with; How much better will the 3DSi (I doubt they'll go with Lite because I don't see them making it much smaller) be than the original with potentially better autostereoscopic screens, display resolution bump, better cameras, and possibly 3/4G?
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MegaByte on January 23, 2011, 06:53:49 PM
Then there is also NWR reporting that there isn't a lot of thing popping out at you, but rather "floating in the foreground". I imagine this is another thing that will get better with the age of autostereoscopic tech, but it could be another level of disappointment for early 3DS adopters.
I don't think this will improve with the current style of technology. 3D objects can't be projected outside of the screen frame, which means nothing can "pop" especially far outward. This can only be fixed by a much larger screen (not really possible in a portable) or a different style of technology, such as laser projectors. That said, I suggest you try it for yourself; the effect is still pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 23, 2011, 07:08:24 PM
To be honest, I don't care about the 3D aspect of the 3DS much at all. The system could be the same as it is in every other respect, and I would still think it is a worthy successor to the DS due to the huge leap in power and the addition of the analog sticks. 3D makes for nice eye candy, and I'm sure its going to do a lot to drive sales, but I'm a gamer who cares about gameplay not about graphics, so for me I'm fine with it but if it wasn't there at all I wouldn't miss it too much.
Also, I'm old enough and one of the few people to have actually owned and used a Virtual Boy, so that's another reason why I'm not terribly excited about the 3D aspect. To me its "been there done it", of course this is no doubt going to be far superior to what the VB was capable of, but still its not like this is the first ever time something has been done in 3D. The technology has been in development and evolving for decades. Sure, it will continue to improve as time goes on, but its not like the 3DS is starting off completely from scratch with the first ever attempt. Its not like this is the Wright brother's maiden flight, or anything...
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: TJ Spyke on January 23, 2011, 07:12:49 PM
I have to agree with Chozo. I will give the 3D a shot (it's pretty interesting), but I would be getting the system anyways because I like everything else about the system.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: KnowsNothing on January 23, 2011, 08:47:45 PM
Most 3D movies and 3D televisions use more of a depth illusion than a "pop." Having things jump out at you is kind of cheesy and seems to be a bit of a gimmick. It's the kind of thing that's used at Disney World or in third rate 3D movies like My Bloody Valentine or Final Destination. More "serious" 3D movies used depth and it looks a whole lot better, at least to me. I don't want to sound like a 3D snob or anything because even if it IS a gimmick that's not necessarily bad and it could be tons of fun, but at the same time I know I prefer the illusion of looking into the screen.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MaryJane on January 23, 2011, 11:50:25 PM
I was more speaking about the perception of what the 3DS is going to be. I've seen a few movies in 3D, surgical video in 3D, and even a basketball game in 3D. I understand that there is more to it than things popping out of the screen, but that however is the idea that comes across most of the time. People are expecting to see things come out of the screen, and I was just wondering if the lack of that on the 3DS would ruin that perception (along with the small sweet spot and headaches) and hurt sales.
And Nintendo is breaking ground. The Wright brothers were not the first to create a working flying apparatus, they were first to make an airplane. Nintendo is not the first to use 3D, and they even beat themselves to the punch for 3D gaming, but the 3DS is the first mobile gaming device that uses autostereoscopic tech to display 3D images. There is nothing, and never was anything, like it.
Then there's StreetPass and SpotPass, two other innovations that could revolutionize the entire world, and I do not say that lightly. Engadget has an article up that agrees with that point, which coincidentally was the second of my five ideas how the 3DS could fail, by Nintendo under or over-utilizing those features, but basically finding a way to turn people off to the idea of Nintendo and other people being connected to their device. Engadget looks at it differently, and I have to say I prefer the way they look at it; revolutionalizing the world. I don't like some of their suggestions, but overall it just shows Nintendo's forward thinking.
Also, there the whole idea of a dual-screened device, something that is hot in the tech world, though no mass appeal devices have come out yet, they are coming. There's one in particular (the name of which I forget) that is meant to replace text books. It could become mass market if people realize its potential and worth. But that is yet another Nintendo innovation. Then there's motion control, if only they had given the Wii serious graphical power.
Anyway, I've rambled On long enough.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Pandareus on January 24, 2011, 12:10:44 AM
2. Is it possible that the front facing camera of the 3DS could be used to track your eyes and move the sweet spot accordingly?
No. First, it's the same camera that the DSi has and the DSi can barely track your head, let alone your eyes. Maaaybe if you're in a very, very, very well lit area (can't stress the importance of lighting enough), but even then, I don't see how it would be possible to move the "sweet spot". It's not as if the orientation of the pixels physically changes when using the slider.
Unless I don't understand what you mean?
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: RABicle on January 24, 2011, 03:01:37 AM
Chris' entire argument was that nintendo aren't serious about downloadable games as evidenced by not having the eStore ready at launch.
As an old man told me recently (http://pietriots.com/2011/01/24/1208/), a certain other product didn't have it's online store ready at launch either.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Ian Sane on January 24, 2011, 12:31:16 PM
Some of you have pointed out that with the 3DS's third party support it should have no problem holding its own against the iPhone or the PSP2. But the Wii has never had anything even resembling decent third party support and it has outsold the other consoles by a huge margin. With the blue ocean crowd third party support means NOTHING. Nintendo themselves are living proof of this. If third party support had any impact with the blue ocean market then the Wii would have been in bargain bins six months after launch. You can talk about how the 3DS has this game and that game and this dev and that dev but it doesn't matter. If it didn't matter with the Wii why would it matter here?
I can see the iPhone having literally ONE game that every casual gamer wants and just outright winning over the blue ocean crowd with that title alone. Think of the impact Wii Sports had. The iPhone could have one game with that same type of universal appeal and run circles around the 3DS.
The 3DS has all these great things going for it but we're looking at it from a core gamer perspective. Don't assume because you like the Wii that you're part of the blue ocean casual market. You're not. If you're on this site or ANY videogame site you are not part of this market. This market is fad-based and can swarm to a certain product for reasons that seemingly make no sense. They have no brand loyalty and quality is irrelevent. One hot iPhone title that costs like a buck and that market can go to Apple overnight.
I think that is Nintendo's biggest threat and frankly there isn't really any way to combat that. What they have to do is be prepared for that to happen and not piss away the traditional core gaming market. That is the market that will continue to buy dedicated portable videogame systems.
I'm not saying Nintendo is screwed, just that the iPhone is a threat and this a way the 3DS could "fail", at least with the casual market.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MaryJane on January 24, 2011, 02:35:36 PM
@Pandareus I was thinking of the head tracking of the DSi, and the fact the 3DSs cameras measure distance in real time.
With those headtracking games, the perspective of what you're looking at changes, and I was wondering if it would be possible to do that on the system rather than on a game by game basis. Perhaps I was too specific about it tracking your eyes, but I was basically just wondering if the sweet spot can move with you.
While autostereoscopic tech might not improve on the pop out aspect, I imagine that viewing angles can and will improve.
@Ian What about the blue ocean crowd on the DS? Don't you think they care about Brain Age, Nintendogs, Animal Crossing, etc.? Yeah those are first party, but game support always matters. For the Wii, Guitar Hero, Mario Party, WiiSports, all matter to the casual gamer, and they buy those games up. What is a system without games?
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Guitar Smasher on January 24, 2011, 02:50:50 PM
Some of you have pointed out that with the 3DS's third party support it should have no problem holding its own against the iPhone or the PSP2. But the Wii has never had anything even resembling decent third party support and it has outsold the other consoles by a huge margin. With the blue ocean crowd third party support means NOTHING. Nintendo themselves are living proof of this. If third party support had any impact with the blue ocean market then the Wii would have been in bargain bins six months after launch. You can talk about how the 3DS has this game and that game and this dev and that dev but it doesn't matter. If it didn't matter with the Wii why would it matter here?
I can see the iPhone having literally ONE game that every casual gamer wants and just outright winning over the blue ocean crowd with that title alone. Think of the impact Wii Sports had. The iPhone could have one game with that same type of universal appeal and run circles around the 3DS.
The 3DS has all these great things going for it but we're looking at it from a core gamer perspective. Don't assume because you like the Wii that you're part of the blue ocean casual market. You're not. If you're on this site or ANY videogame site you are not part of this market. This market is fad-based and can swarm to a certain product for reasons that seemingly make no sense. They have no brand loyalty and quality is irrelevent. One hot iPhone title that costs like a buck and that market can go to Apple overnight.
I think that is Nintendo's biggest threat and frankly there isn't really any way to combat that. What they have to do is be prepared for that to happen and not piss away the traditional core gaming market. That is the market that will continue to buy dedicated portable videogame systems.
I'm not saying Nintendo is screwed, just that the iPhone is a threat and this a way the 3DS could "fail", at least with the casual market.
The 3DS is not designed for the blue-ocean crowd. I can't even remember the last time Nintendo mentioned "blue-ocean" (was it 2007?). The platform exists simply because the tech is ready, and not because of any desire to expand to untapped markets. In fact it could be argued that Nintendo is trying to move its DS brand up-market by increasing the power, adding 3D, and charging $250.
Oh and in your assessment of how the casuals have no brand loyalty and will swarm to whatever's hot, I'd like to know how Nintendo could "lose" that market to iPhone, if all it takes is providing another hit title to win them back?
Also, love your complete contempt for the segment. You're way in troll territory now, but I know you're being serious. You should be more appreciative of the casuals, after all they saved your favourite company.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Ian Sane on January 24, 2011, 04:49:33 PM
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The 3DS is not designed for the blue-ocean crowd. I can't even remember the last time Nintendo mentioned "blue-ocean" (was it 2007?). The platform exists simply because the tech is ready, and not because of any desire to expand to untapped markets. In fact it could be argued that Nintendo is trying to move its DS brand up-market by increasing the power, adding 3D, and charging $250.
I'm pretty sure Nintendo wants to keep the blue-ocean market they attracted with the DS. The iPhone and other smart phones are a threat to handheld videogame systems period, not just the 3DS. We've got a model where short casual titles can be bought for a fraction of the price and the device itself is phone, videogame system, palm computer, and MP3 player all in one. That is a huge threat to the 3DS and it appeals to the mainstream casual gamer more than anything else. If anything is going to sink the 3DS, it's competition from smart phones. Only enthusiasts will want a seperate portable device dedicated specifically to gaming.
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What about the blue ocean crowd on the DS? Don't you think they care about Brain Age, Nintendogs, Animal Crossing, etc.?
I don't think casuals care at all. That's what makes them casual. The mainstream's tastes hop from here to there all the time. What is hot today is not tomorrow and mainstream pandering IP often has no legs because there is no truly passionate fanbase behind it. Look at music. An album oriented rock band can have a few years of mainstream success and then fall out of favour but still tour and sell new albums with a dedicated fanbase. Meanwhile a pop act who is strictly aiming their music entirely at the mainstream can fall out of favour and just drop off the face of the Earth with no one giving a ****. Because they were so mainstream focused they have virtually no legitimate fanbase so once the fickle mainstream loses interest no one is left. So I'm figuring if the casuals still dig Nintendo they'll buy Brain Age and Nintendogs and such. But if the iPhone grabs their attention, they're gone.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MaryJane on January 24, 2011, 05:46:23 PM
If Nintendo wants to keep the blue ocean crowd, they have to cater to them and do so despite them owning an iPhone.
Nintendo can't be looking to draw people away from the iPhone because as its name implies, it's a phone.
The 3DS needs to sell alongside the iPhone, and do so by having games that are attractive to iPhone (casual) gamers, as well as the hardcore crowd.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Tobbebobbe on January 26, 2011, 09:12:23 AM
Funny how people call him a troll just because he's not of the same opinion as everyone else.
But I think that the PSP suffered from a "mini Ps2" syndrome. Why play the PSP when you can play your Ps2 on a bigger screen?
The 3DS has 3D, and although both 360 and Ps3 have that too, very few people can use it today. With other words, 3DS offers a unique experience that can't be found on either smartphones or home consoles, and I very much doubt that the PSP2 will have a 3D screen.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Ian Sane on January 26, 2011, 12:22:44 PM
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But I think that the PSP suffered from a "mini Ps2" syndrome. Why play the PSP when you can play your Ps2 on a bigger screen?
One thing that did not help was that the original PSP exclusives like Lumines and GTA: Liberty City Stories got ported to the PS2. One thing Nintendo has always done well is making sure their portables have exclusive games so that even if you have no need to play games on the go there is an incentive to own the system just to play the unique games.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: ShyGuy on January 26, 2011, 02:08:28 PM
Funny how people call him a troll just because he's not of the same opinion as everyone else.
But I think that the PSP suffered from a "mini Ps2" syndrome. Why play the PSP when you can play your Ps2 on a bigger screen?
The 3DS has 3D, and although both 360 and Ps3 have that too, very few people can use it today. With other words, 3DS offers a unique experience that can't be found on either smartphones or home consoles, and I very much doubt that the PSP2 will have a 3D screen.
I called him a troll because he's being intentionally contrarian to get a reaction out of people. Kohler is a very good game journalist in a field of horrible man-children game journalists, but this was trollicious.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: nickmitch on January 26, 2011, 05:37:16 PM
Calling an unrealesed system "last gen" is kind of a troll. Especially when said system contains new(-ish) tech.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: MegaByte on January 26, 2011, 06:35:14 PM
"Last gen" was more in terms of their software strategy than hardware. But if you follow his Twitter, he clearly knew what he was getting into.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 27, 2011, 03:47:25 AM
Everyone has some kind of brand loyalty, just because someone "casually" plays games (I don't even think that is an honest term anymore if you put into consideration how many hours many of these "casual" players put into games) doesn't make them less then human. It is in our nature to want to stick with the familiar and what we most recognize, that includes games as well.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 31, 2011, 01:47:01 PM
Calling an unrealesed system "last gen" is kind of a troll. Especially when said system contains new(-ish) tech.
That's what virtually every "analyst" and video gaming pundit said about the Wii before it was released, and in fact many still do.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: oohhboy on February 04, 2011, 03:26:30 PM
I don't believe that the 3DS itself has any fatal or serious flaws. It's a fine machine and it has some nags like the battery. The machine itself isn't the problem here.
The problem is everything else. Nothing else has matched up to the confidence the machine itself has generated. The launch line up is a bit oh hum although much better than the DS launch. It has a self inflicted sticker price shock thats going to make people think twice and bite Nintendo twice. Nintendo now infamous pissing around with online has come about again with delays and lack of any substantial infrastructure investment on their part. Nintendo is starting to show some hubris, although no where near as bad as telling people to get a second job with their increasingly discriminatory pricing towards most of the world.
I have to fundamentally disagree with most of what Chris has said. The iPhone and others like it are never going to be a real threat to gaming as we know it. While there is some overlap, you can not wave away the fact that a game playing device is fundamentally different to a Phone or multi-function device and it has be to. The 3DS primary function is to play games and everything to designed around this. This is not a niche, a massive population of people out there wants something that just plays games. It is the iPhone that is the niche. It fills the distraction level of the market that game players aren't quite as good at due to price and differing demand. In the end, it's not really gaming, it's a distraction. A person who buys a 3DS is buying it to play games. This is not true on multiple levels for phones.
If distractions is what gaming is coming to, I will have none of it.
Besides, who the hell quotes a NY times article that forms it's entire basis on what Pachter says.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 04, 2011, 04:08:56 PM
People who bought a DS just for Brain Age and Nintendogs (a not insignificant portion of the user base) could very easily be satisfied by what's available on the iPhone. People like us are never going to be satisfied with just that, but people like us aren't the reason the DS has sold 140 million units.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: oohhboy on February 04, 2011, 04:28:35 PM
I won't argue the fact that the 3DS could and can service that level of gameplay, but I would say it doesn't service it very well. Phone gaming is somewhat equivalent to going to the dollar store to buy a cap gun and making some noise. It can be fun and is a subset of toys. They can have their dollar cap guns, but there are people like you and me that want more, so we go to actual toy stores to buy bigger, better toys like full auto nerf guns.
But to say in the future everyone will play with cap guns just because there are more dollar stores than toys stores is silly. It's not even reaching, it's tearing your arm off, throwing it and calling where it lands your "Reach".
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 04, 2011, 04:41:09 PM
I think you're underestimating the quality of what's available on the phone platforms. There is a lot of good stuff there, and even some with real depth. The lack of physical controls means certain types of games will never work well, but things that can be adapted to the touch screen or tilt control can and do work very well. As I've pointed out before, Square-Enix is porting the PSP remake of Final Fantasy Tactics to the iPhone. Is that just a distraction? The platformer junkie and Nintendo fanboy in me would never let me settle for just that, but people who aren't fans of the genres that depend on physical controls will find plenty of quality games on the iPhone.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Ian Sane on February 04, 2011, 06:06:35 PM
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It is the iPhone that is the niche. It fills the distraction level of the market that game players aren't quite as good at due to price and differing demand. In the end, it's not really gaming, it's a distraction.
Back when the Wii launched I would have argued that motion control and the Wii in general would fit this same description. Motion control is hugely popular but so far I have found it to be utterly worthless for any sort of gaming with some meat to it. It's often used for mapping a button press to a gesture which ends up making the controls LESS precise and only offers novelty value. I think "distraction" is a good word for this.
My opinion has not changed but I was looking at it all from the perspective of the gaming audience I was familiar with at the time. I did not guess that there would be this huge market of casuals that would eat this stuff up and NOT get bored of it years later. Kinect just sold like hotcakes and I was initially thinking "why would ANYONE be interested in something so obviously inadequate for controlling any videogame with the slightest amount of depth" when it was first revealed. I don't think like these people, just like I don't think like the people that make some really horrible songs or movies successful. There are times where I cannot even think of how someone in theory could like something and it becomes a big hit.
Poor singing and a weak melody does not prevent a song from being a hit. Bad writing and plot holes don't prohibit bad movies from being hits. Games also do not require responsive controls or engaging gameplay to be popular. I think smart phones are easily good enough for the casual market. EVERYTHING is a distraction to this group.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 04, 2011, 09:43:45 PM
Motion control is hugely popular but so far I have found it to be utterly worthless for any sort of gaming with some meat to it.
Have you tried RE4 on the Wii? If you have and if you compare it to the other versions you might agree with me that it does add something to the game in this instance, and of course Resident Evil is absolutely NOT a casual meatless game. Sure, most motion control games are Carnival Games and things like that, but RE4 on the Wii shows it can be done with hardcore games and done well. The problem is its just seldom done that way, but that's the fault of developers. But my point is that it can be done even if it seldom is.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: TGM on February 12, 2011, 03:43:18 PM
It's a "what if" article. The majority of the criticism amounts to speculation, not known fact. I think the proper term for this is "fear mongering".
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: Runic on February 12, 2011, 04:38:59 PM
Personally I have thought motion controls on the Wii are a gimmick. I own a Wii and really hate using them. The Kinect on the other hand is amazing. Back to the topic, I had a chance to play the Nintendo 3DS at E3 and I can tell you it is the most impressive tech I have seen in 5 years. The graphics are sharp and smooth and the 3D really works.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: nickmitch on February 12, 2011, 05:01:58 PM
It's a "what if" article. The majority of the criticism amounts to speculation, not known fact. I think the proper term for this is "fear mongering".
Fear mongering is just a type of trolling.
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: UncleBob on February 12, 2011, 06:00:06 PM
Quote from: insanolord
People who bought a DS just for Brain Age and Nintendogs (a not insignificant portion of the user base) could very easily be satisfied by what's available on the iPhone. People like us are never going to be satisfied with just that, but people like us aren't the reason the DS has sold 140 million units.
Well, I bought five... ;)
Title: Re: Chris Kohler trolls the 3DS
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 12, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
So did I, but I'm pretty sure we're outliers in that regard.
