Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Duncan on September 20, 2010, 01:05:03 PM
Title: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Duncan on September 20, 2010, 01:05:03 PM
Hey, I've just joined the forum, so I hope this isn't off topic. The podcast boards are "reply only". Anyway, I love listening to Radio Free Nintendo every week, but I've noticed every time Metroid Prime (one of my favourite games) is brought up, James makes some snarky remark about it. The most obvious examples I can think of was back when they were trying to pick the best game of the decade. Has James ever explained why he doesn't like Metroid Prime, or if he's just joking? Thanks! ;)
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Halbred on September 20, 2010, 01:57:45 PM
James just doesn't like Metroid games.
He's wierd like that.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: broodwars on September 20, 2010, 02:13:18 PM
If I remember correctly, James doesn't like the constant backtracking of the Metroid design, which is especially prevalent in the Prime games. It's kind of amusing considering his fondness for JRPGs, but that's why he doesn't care much for the Metroid games.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Duncan on September 20, 2010, 05:22:13 PM
Oh, okay. Thanks.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Crimm on September 20, 2010, 06:50:38 PM
The series relies heavily on backtracking and near random happenstance to find where to go. The game often makes you find a key and tells you "somewhere in this world is the key for this door." It's poor design, and not fun.
Do you find looking for missing car keys fun? No. What about looking for a car in a parking deck? No. So why would it be fun in a game? Metroid is like looking for keys and then your car, only instead your living room you're in a subterranean hellscape and instead of a parking deck it is an entire perilous world.
Oh, and there is no way in hell that Metroid Prime was the "Game of the Decade." Wind Waker murders it with a sword to the head.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: ThePerm on September 20, 2010, 07:12:37 PM
it would make more sense if the key was made out of ice magic and the entrance to the next place you had to go to was also icey....
or even better, you receive a torch for whatever reason, and you remembered this door that was frozen solid, and you used this torch to melt the door that was frozen solid.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Ian Sane on September 20, 2010, 07:24:20 PM
Quote
The series relies heavily on backtracking and near random happenstance to find where to go. The game often gives you a key and tells you "somewhere in this world is the key for this door."
See to me that's like a good sales pitch. You're pretty much listing off everything I like about Metroid. The appeal is very similar to that of a puzzle or a mystery with some discovery as well. When I bomb and find a passage I feel like an archaeologist finding a secret passage.
If if you don't like Metroid Prime it is at least is a very innovative game, so much so that it gets flack from rubes for not playing like an FPS because it looks like one in screenshots. What does Wind Waker do that is is even remotely creative or interesting? It's basically Ocarina of Time with cartoon graphics, a big blue ocean of nothing for an overworld, and an irritating time consuming method of getting around. What makes it exceptional?
One thing I find very frustrating about being a Metroid fan is that more than probably any other videogame franchise it is constantly criticized for what it's not. And Nintendo actually CATERS to the people who hate the series by making games for these people. Metroid Prime wasn't an FPS and it got tons of flack for that so they made Metroid Prime Hunters. Meanwhile the series gets criticized for being too obtuse and having too much backtracking so they make the games MORE linear and put obvious hints in and eventually get to the point where we get Other M which is more or less a linear action game. It seems to be designed specifically for a target audience that dislikes Metroid.
What other series has to deal with this where the concept is compromised more and more to appeal to people who don't even like the games in the first place? Does Nintendo **** around with Zelda and Mario the whole time to appeal to non-fans? But then Mario and Zelda have more universal appeal and maybe that's the problem. Metroid doesn't but Nintendo can't really cope with one of their franchises being a profitable cult game. Not only do I feel that I have to defend my Metroid fandom against haters but that I have to fight against the creators of the games themselves. It's like the fans that made the series successful in the first place are punished.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Halbred on September 20, 2010, 07:31:52 PM
Oh, and there is no way in hell that Metroid Prime was the "Game of the Decade." Wind Waker murders it with a sword to the head.
THANK YOU. We are of one mind.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: TJ Spyke on September 20, 2010, 08:10:51 PM
I couldn't disagree more. I loved The Wind Waker, but Metroid Prime is so much better and was easily the best game of the decade. The game was almost perfect.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Crimm on September 20, 2010, 08:17:17 PM
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: TJ Spyke on September 20, 2010, 08:21:22 PM
...yes.
It's OK that you don't like it, but I don't understand why you can't see what a great game it is. There are games I don't like that I can still admit are good. I can't think of any flaws I see in it (back tracking is not a problem in the game).
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 20, 2010, 08:56:02 PM
You're all wrong: Super Mario Galaxy was the game of the decade.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Mop it up on September 20, 2010, 09:08:09 PM
Close, but Super Smash Brothers Melee is the true game of the decade. It's got Mario, Link, and Samus in it, so I don't know how some silly game with just one of those characters could win out over it.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 20, 2010, 11:34:31 PM
Melee wasn't even the best Smash Bros. of the decade. [/instigating]
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Mop it up on September 21, 2010, 12:34:30 AM
No way. That other one was a complete mess. Mario, Link, and Samus all got nerfed beyond belief. How is that any way to treat Nintendo's beloved heroes?
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: ThePerm on September 21, 2010, 12:36:51 AM
Gears of War was the game of the decade :)
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Mop it up on September 21, 2010, 12:43:01 AM
Clearly Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing is the game of the decade. It makes us appreciate even the most mediocre of games by showing us just how bad things can get.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 21, 2010, 01:36:26 AM
I still think there's hope for my write-in candidate, Mario Tennis for the Game Boy Color. This contest isn't over yet.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 21, 2010, 07:15:31 AM
Some people don't like the Prime games because they are FP(S). I've had friends tell me they can't play it because it makes them physically sick, I guess its because of motion sickness or soemthing like that. It doesn't bother me in that way, but I am more of a fan of 3rd person games which is the way the Metroid series started. I like to be able to see my character on the screen and I like being able to see enemies which are behind me.
Other M mostly gets this right in that it is mostly in 3rd person, however in order to use missiles you have to switch into FP(S) and of course the enemies aren't going to grant you a time out so you can make that change and then get them into your sights. I've died many more times than I needed to just because I switched into FP(S) mode and was facing the wrong direction or something stupid like that. I just wish it was in 3rd person 100% of the time. I hope one day the Metroid series will go back to that.
And another reason why 3rd person perspective is better is for when Samus is in a bikini or her Zero Suit. When she's like that don't you want to be able to see her? If the game is in FP(S) then you can't enjoy the eye candy of Samus' body.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Ian Sane on September 21, 2010, 12:18:58 PM
I think Pikmin 2 is the Game of the Decade. That or Majora's Mask.
I actually consider Metroid Prime 2 to be my favourite of the Metroid Prime series which is kind of interesting since that is often considered the worst entry of the series. The first game was really awesome but I found the repeated Chozo Ghost encounters to be a real frustrating pain in the ass and since the sequel didn't have that I found it to be superior. Metroid Prime 3 is my least favourite as I honestly don't care for the controls. Plus splitting the world into several planets makes it more linear and less interesting. Metroid Prime 3 is dumbed down for people who wanted the series to play like an FPS.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Dasmos on September 21, 2010, 12:21:36 PM
And another reason why 3rd person perspective is better is for when Samus is in a bikini or her Zero Suit. When she's like that don't you want to be able to see her? If the game is in FP(S) then you can't enjoy the eye candy of Samus' body.
-_-'
Personally, I prefer the 1st person perspective of the Prime games, as it is so much more immersive (especially when something hits your helmet, such as water, or you need to use one of the special visors). The 3rd person Metroid games have their strengths (namely speed and a wider view of your environment), but I always feel a little detached when I play them. Definitely better puzzles in the Prime games and better overall use of all of Samus' abilities as well.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Sarail on September 21, 2010, 02:41:27 PM
Oh, and there is no way in hell that Metroid Prime was the "Game of the Decade." Wind Waker murders it with a sword to the head.
Hah. See that's crazy to me, because I consider Wind Waker one of the weaker Zeldas of the bunch. For me, Twilight Princess is my favorite (the atmosphere in that game is just crazy awesome sauce) with Majora's Mask (the character development is fantastic) following very closely behind.
As far as Metroids go, Super Metroid is still my fav, followed very closely by Other M, with the Prime series, mainly 3 and then 2 behind Other M. Although, I'd probably rate Zero Mission between Prime 3 and 2. :)
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: NWR_Neal on September 21, 2010, 03:52:20 PM
Sega Soccer Slam was the best game of the decade.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: that Baby guy on September 21, 2010, 03:59:15 PM
I could've sworn half the planet thought Scribblenauts was the best game of the decade.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: NWR_Neal on September 21, 2010, 04:45:57 PM
I could've sworn half the planet thought Scribblenauts was the best game of the decade.
Best Game of the Decade (Pre-Release)
Just you wait. Super Scribblenauts will fix everything.
Without addressing any of the games real, serious problems.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Ian Sane on September 21, 2010, 06:24:07 PM
Quote
Personally, I prefer the 1st person perspective of the Prime games, as it is so much more immersive (especially when something hits your helmet, such as water, or you need to use one of the special visors). The 3rd person Metroid games have their strengths (namely speed and a wider view of your environment), but I always feel a little detached when I play them. Definitely better puzzles in the Prime games and better overall use of all of Samus' abilities as well.
I probably prefer 3rd person Metroid in that I find Super Metroid and Zero Mission to be two of the most enjoyable games I've ever played. But if Other M is any indication for how Metroid is going to continue in the third person then I think I should specific that I prefer 2D Metroid but for 3D Metroid first person is the way to go. For Mario I prefer 2D but for Zelda I prefer 3D as it seems like a natural extension of the original top-down games.
For those gushing over Wind Waker I ask why you think it's so great. I don't hate it but I consider it the weakest of the four 3D Zeldas. What does Wind Waker do so well that you consider it one of your favourite games? I think it's a great game because it's Zelda. But then that is also why Twilight Princess is a great game. The Zelda formula is such that it ensures a great game pretty much by default so Wind Waker is certainly an exceptional Gamecube game. But how is it an exceptional Zelda game? That I don't see. It seems pretty run-of-the-mill by Zelda standards.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Halbred on September 21, 2010, 07:17:41 PM
I think it's amazing because for the first and only time (MY OPINION ONLY), Wind Waker presents an organic world and a true sense of exploration and discovery. You are literally a cartographer. But beyond that, the game's aesthetic is amazingly coherent, moreso than any other Zelda game. The environments and the creatures and people that inhabit them fit together beautifully. The weather, the music, everything just compliments Wind Waker's unique world.
No Zelda game, before or since, has felt so unique and consistent and alive as Wind Waker.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: TJ Spyke on September 21, 2010, 07:24:10 PM
Agreed about Wind Waker, I have gone back and replayed it multiple times. I never did complete the Nintendo Gallery though.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: broodwars on September 21, 2010, 07:37:08 PM
No Zelda game, before or since, has felt so unique and consistent and alive as Wind Waker.
Majora's Mask, IMO. I never cared much for Wind Waker outside of its gorgeous art style like I have the other Zeldas. The sailing just bored me and was rather annoying to control, and the extended fetch quest at the end just destroyed the game for me.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: NWR_Neal on September 21, 2010, 08:30:23 PM
I need to replay Wind Waker. It's been at least five years. I also need to finish replaying Metroid Prime.
Screw it, I'll just keep on the playing the real game of the decade: Sega Soccer Slam.
Also, thatguy, there's a reason no one gives a crap about Super Scribblenauts. Oh look! Adjectives! It still looks like nothing more than a cool sandbox to play around in for 15 minutes.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: that Baby guy on September 21, 2010, 09:39:14 PM
Also, thatguy, there's a reason no one gives a crap about Super Scribblenauts. Oh look! Adjectives! It still looks like nothing more than a cool sandbox to play around in for 15 minutes.
Tell that to half the major media outlets out there. I'm betting it's going to get close to the same media attention. Kotaku already hails that it "fixes" the major problems of the first game, at least.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Ian Sane on September 22, 2010, 12:40:08 PM
Quote
I think it's amazing because for the first and only time (MY OPINION ONLY), Wind Waker presents an organic world and a true sense of exploration and discovery. You are literally a cartographer.
I love exploring in Zelda games but I found that Wind Waker's world was too sparse to really be interesting. The concept of sailing around and discovering new land is an awesome concept but I think you need a much bigger world to work with. Discovering a little lsland about the size of city lot with one cave in it just doesn't do it for me. I actually think the graphics hurt the effect as the lack of shades makes everything look the same. It's all a big blue blob and each island is lots of solid green or tan.
Skies of Arcadia has a simlar idea in that you're on a ship and there are discoveries to be made. But somehow it did it better. It really feels like I'm covering some serious distance. The "discoveries" are pretty interesting landmarks and the areas you can dock at and explore are distinct and a good size. The only problem is the game is an RPG so your exploration is hurt by constant random battles. But if you're going to make a sailing game that's the title to look at for inspiration. The Wind Waker concept is awesome in theory but I found it was weak in execution.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: vudu on September 22, 2010, 02:16:10 PM
Also, thatguy, there's a reason no one gives a crap about Super Scribblenauts. Oh look! Adjectives! It still looks like nothing more than a cool sandbox to play around in for 15 minutes.
Tell that to half the major media outlets out there. I'm betting it's going to get close to the same media attention. Kotaku already hails that it "fixes" the major problems of the first game, at least.
As long as the "beekeeper" isn't afraid of "bees" then Super Scribblenauts will be the best game of the new decade.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 23, 2010, 01:07:28 PM
I probably prefer 3rd person Metroid in that I find Super Metroid and Zero Mission to be two of the most enjoyable games I've ever played. But if Other M is any indication for how Metroid is going to continue in the third person then I think I should specific that I prefer 2D Metroid but for 3D Metroid first person is the way to go. For Mario I prefer 2D but for Zelda I prefer 3D as it seems like a natural extension of the original top-down games.
Other M has many flaws, but the perspective isn't one of them (in my opinion). Other M is a 3D Metroid game in 3rd person, and it gets that right. There's no problem there as far as I can tell... the only thing I would have changed would have been to include the nunchuck so that the analog stick could be use, but really the D-Pad works okay and actually better than I thought it would for that sort of gameplay, but an analog stick would have been better. I also would have eliminated the need to switch into 1st person to fire missles or scan your environment, as that overcomplicates things more than it needs to. Super Metroid got it right, because everything was in 3rd person and you didn't need to flip around all the time. That's one of the flaws with Other M, but again there's nothing inherently wrong with the perspective of the gameplay.
However, I agree with many of the complaints people have with Other M... the pixel hunts, having to get adam's permission for everything, emotional Samus, weak dialogue, mediocre graphics, the fact its all inside a ship instead of a planet, and a hundred other minor things as well. Yeah, I agree with those flaws, but Other M also gets some things right too. Its not Super Metroid by any means, but that has nothing to do with being 3rd person + 3D.
Other M isn't the best Metroid game, and almost everyone agrees with that, but 3rd person in 3D has been PROVEN to be successful with Mario, Zelda, and many other franchises over the years. There's no reason it can't be done successfully with Metroid as well. So please don't throw out the baby Metroid with the bath water... give it a chance. Because look at it this way, imagine if Other M was in first person just like the Prime games. Being in FP would not have made Other M an A+ title in and of itself. Would being in FP have fixed the weak story, mediocre graphics, emotional Samus, needing Adam's permission for everything, pixel hunts, etc? Would being an FP have made Other M as good as Prime if it was exactly the same in every other respect? No, it would not have. But at the same time, neither could it being in 3rd person have saved it from being a B rated game, but all I'm saying is give Other M credit where it is due, and if you're going to attack it, then please attack it for the real and legitimate flaws... not for the things it actually does get right.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Ian Sane on September 23, 2010, 04:29:16 PM
I agree that Other M does not ruin third person Metroid for good. The concept could work with better game design decisions. I think someone with non-stupid ideas could use the Other M engine to make a really good Metroid game.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Mop it up on September 23, 2010, 05:40:01 PM
I don't have as many problems with Other M as some people seem to, but even so, the stuff it does have is definitely not due to the kind of game it is. I liked what I saw in it, and I hope it's followed up on sometime. Unfortunately, given its sales in Japan, I have doubts that will happen.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Acton on September 24, 2010, 12:31:10 AM
Wish I had a copy of my old post from the Iydronis studios site, I ask a similiar question on the glowing helmet huds they had design for the Cyberfuge:Second Battallion. It was very helpful. The hud pieces were design in photoshop but the overall effect was the glow that was used for all the elements. It was one of the opengl blending modes that you had to add into the engine code. Anyway thats about all I can jog from my nogging at the moment heh.garmin handheld gps (http://www.ETREXVENTURE.COM)
Edited for my poor spelling :) Great if you can get any info back Eric Pre-haloish and it still looks very cool.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Luigi Dude on September 24, 2010, 12:49:34 AM
I don't have as many problems with Other M as some people seem to, but even so, the stuff it does have is definitely not due to the kind of game it is. I liked what I saw in it, and I hope it's followed up on sometime. Unfortunately, given its sales in Japan, I have doubts that will happen.
The Japanese sales wont mean crap. Metroid has always been most popular in America by far and that's what Nintendo cares most about. If Other M does well in America, then we'll probably get another one like it in the future because the American audience is the only one that matters for Metroid games. Hell, Other M is doing slightly better then the Prime games did in Japan and yet we got three of them in the end.
Other M wasn't made because Nintendo wanted to make the series more popular in Japan, it was made because the creator of the series wanted to make another game since he hadn't made one since Zero Mission in 2004. Other M is basically a 3D version of Fusion and considering Metroid Fusion sold better in North America then Zero Mission did, who's to say that Sakamoto might have thought that the American audience liked Fusion better and so that's why he really made Other M like it since it was the more popular of his last two Metroid games even in North America.
Plus like I said in the sales topic, if Nintendo and Sakamoto were only concerned about making the series more popular in Japan, there's a lot more crazier things they could have done. The fact that they didn't go full Japanese shows they didn't care that much about how well it would do there. This is why the only thing that will decide if we get any Metroid games like Other M again will be when the North American September NPD come out in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Mop it up on September 24, 2010, 05:20:33 PM
They didn't go too crazy with the Japanese influence because they wanted the series to become more popular in Japan without alienating fans in North America. Since Other M doesn't seem to have helped in that regard, I would not be surprised if they did go "full Japanese" with the next Metroid game.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Halbred on September 26, 2010, 07:23:12 PM
They didn't go too crazy with the Japanese influence because they wanted the series to become more popular in Japan without alienating fans in North America. Since Other M doesn't seem to have helped in that regard, I would not be surprised if they did go "full Japanese" with the next Metroid game.
What? Are you kidding? The entire story, how it's presented, how it's written, all that crap--it's entirely Japanese. It's the MOST Japanese entry in the Metroid franchise.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Mop it up on September 26, 2010, 07:26:37 PM
Read Luigi Dude's post. He claimed that they didn't go "full Japanese," that there were "crazier things they could have done." Don't ask me what he meant, I'm no expert on Japanese culture so I'm not the best judge.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Halbred on September 26, 2010, 07:36:36 PM
I suppose there aren't tentacles. ;-)
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Luigi Dude on September 26, 2010, 09:29:26 PM
Read Luigi Dude's post. He claimed that they didn't go "full Japanese," that there were "crazier things they could have done." Don't ask me what he meant, I'm no expert on Japanese culture so I'm not the best judge.
Here is what are the most popular animes on average each week in Japan.
If you were to actually watch all of these series you'd see what is really popular among the mainstream Japanese population. If Nintendo only cared about making Metroid popular in Japan with Other M then as you can see there's a whole lot more they could have done. But the fact that they held back shows that Other M wasn't made with only Japan in mind and that the North American sales are still what they care most about with the Metroid series.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Caliban on September 26, 2010, 09:54:53 PM
One Piece is awesome. If Other M was just as awesome, y'all would be shitting bricks at how awesome it is.
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Halbred on September 27, 2010, 12:26:23 AM
To get back to the original question this thread poses, we should also remember that James doesn't really like good games. For proof, listen to RFN most weeks. LOL
Title: Re: Why doesn't James like Metroid Prime?
Post by: Mop it up on September 27, 2010, 02:49:55 AM
The story in Metroid Other M isn't up to the quality of those animés.
