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Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Boffo on April 27, 2003, 02:04:38 AM

Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Boffo on April 27, 2003, 02:04:38 AM: I was just thinking about Rare and how it wasn't fair of Nintendo to say Rare made only such and such a % of profits for those years. Rare had Dinosaur Planet and then Nintendo asked them to change it all into the Starfox universe. It takes time. I know it doesn't really matter now. I don't know, it's 7am and I'm rambling....
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Grey Ninja on April 27, 2003, 02:42:26 AM: Take a look around at what Rare has done lately. Their last two games were Star Fox Adventures and Conker's Bad Fur Day. Take a good look at the gap between those games. They had even promised us Kameo as a launch title for GameCube. Since they have left Nintendo, they have even less to show to Microsoft. Nintendo made the right decision.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Mario on April 27, 2003, 02:53:55 AM: I miss Rare I was just playing Starfox Adventures last night and i was like "OMG this is so perfect, best graphics evah, best music evah, best ending evah!" Then when i was watching the end credits, a tear went down my eye and i thought of Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Conkers bad fur day and Banjo Kazzoie and how Rare will never be the same again! nnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! Im sorry, i think i have something in my eye...........

I want Rare back somehow... *starts plotting*
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Grey Ninja on April 27, 2003, 03:25:59 AM: Mario, yes, Rare was something special, and we all want them back, but they are really and truly gone. Even if you own an Xbox they are gone. All that's left is the name.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Mario on April 27, 2003, 04:03:57 AM: Yes i know that.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Termin8Anakin on April 27, 2003, 04:38:02 AM: I miss Rare only for Banjo and Kazooie's adventures.
Conker was good, but it was as good as the greatest sequel of all, Banjo Tooie.
The levels were so huge in that. I think that Rare's level designs are much better than Nintendo's abstract, linear levels, and any other developer's level designs.
They remind me so much of Zelda.

Which means Nintendo should look to Zelda for the next Mario game.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on April 27, 2003, 05:07:29 AM: I too miss Rare, but I already missed them in Starfox Adventures. Sure that game had awesome graphics etc, but the game itself wasnt that good.

The last great game from Rare was Conkers Bad Fur Day.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: EggyToast on April 27, 2003, 06:13:29 AM: Yeah, the current crop of people at Rare seem to be schooled only in graphics, not in gameplay.

I mean, I love those older Rare games, too. But everyone who made those old Rare games has long since left Rare and, in most cases, is a 3rd or 2nd party to Nintendo.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Ninja X on April 27, 2003, 07:42:21 AM: Countless hours spent with PD...I'm going to miss Rare for that.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: willys85 on April 27, 2003, 08:46:21 AM: And what about Zoonami? they are the soul of the last Rare we use to know, don't they?
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: rpglover on April 27, 2003, 08:49:48 AM: "The last great game from Rare was Conkers Bad Fur Day."

i hear that- it was not only great graphic wise and sound wise, the gameplay was very good (especially the context sensitive buttons)
the games from rare i loved were the original dkc on snes, jet force gemini, conkers bfd, pd, and goldeneye
rare has gone downhill a little and i guess you can say microsoft has only aquired the name and not the talent
but we shall see come e3
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: BobbyRobby on April 27, 2003, 09:35:02 AM: I think I liked Rare most in the NES days. Even then I wasn't a huge fan of them.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Okiva77 on April 27, 2003, 02:27:25 PM: Oh my god, I am SO with you on the Zelda Mario thing!!!

Finally! Vindication!

Imagine a three dimensional mario game using zelda's battle mechanics to aim your fireballs, position your jumping, etc???

Conker's Bad Fur Day was my Rare introduction. Brilliant! It was sad to see Rare go, but i'm so over it.
Time for something new!

And if the new Conker game is any good, guess im gonna have to get an Xbox to play it.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: dmcollin on April 27, 2003, 02:37:00 PM: The company isn't the same as it was during its peak with the n64. Look at all the companies founded with former employees. Nintendo probably realized that sony or ms want more franchises and with both were willing to pay more than the actual value for them, along with nintendo having plenty of franchises already.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Locke Cole on April 27, 2003, 02:43:16 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: Mario
I miss Rare I was just playing Starfox Adventures last night and i was like "OMG this is so perfect, best graphics evah, best music evah, best ending evah!" Then when i was watching the end credits, a tear went down my eye and i thought of Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Conkers bad fur day and Banjo Kazzoie and how Rare will never be the same again! nnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! Im sorry, i think i have something in my eye...........

I want Rare back somehow... *starts plotting*

Mario? What the hell were you on when you were playing SFA, how can you say that it has the best ending evah! I thought it was a cheap way to end the game. I felt no accomplishment when I beat the game and watched the credits roll. The only thing I credit that game is having good voice acting. Thats one of the good things in that game, I still miss rare sorta, but not much. *Dreams of Banjo-Threeie*
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: joeamis on April 27, 2003, 03:40:03 PM: mario you're so funny with your faces and all heheheh
i don't think we will miss too much from rare, i mean we do have
zoonami...
i have a question is zoonami making games for nintendo or for all platforms?
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Mario on April 27, 2003, 04:05:02 PM: Zoonami are exclusive to Nintendo, and they only have like 1 or 2 people from Rare btw. Hundreds of people work at Rare, only 2 went to Zoonami! Zoonami is nothing like Rare! And anyone who thinks Rare is an empty shell has gotta be joking? We'll see at E3, Rare are still Rare no matter how you try and twist it.
Quote
Mario? What the hell were you on when you were playing SFA, how can you say that it has the best ending evah! I thought it was a cheap way to end the game. I felt no accomplishment when I beat the game and watched the credits roll.

Well I liked it... mainly the part just before you *spoilers* fight andross after you "fight" General Scales and release the last spirit.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Grey Ninja on April 27, 2003, 04:17:58 PM: Large chunks of the Goldeneye/Perfect Dark team left for Free Radical, and are now famous for making Timesplitters 2.
When Rare was bought by Microsoft, they lost 20 - 30 employees, and the Stamper Brothers left.
Project Lead on Perfect Dark left for Zoonami.

Calling Rare an empty shell isn't entirely unfair. The games made by Rare that you know and love are made by people that are probably no longer working at Rare.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Ninja X on April 27, 2003, 04:28:41 PM: An empty shell? Come E3, we will see for sure.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 27, 2003, 04:35:10 PM: Oh I'm sure Rare's got quality new employees and their games will be great, but unless they thoroughly trained their replacements, Rare's XBox games simply won't have that style that made me love their games so much. It simply won't be the same- it'd be like Miyamoto leaving Nintendo.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Hostile Creation on April 27, 2003, 04:40:52 PM: I never really liked any N64 Rare games, and while I concede that Star Fox Adventures was pretty good, it was not nearly that good. The ending was sickening. The music and graphics are pretty good, but you can say that for a dozen games. But it had funny parts, like the jazz music and the shopkeeper complaining while you hold up some newly bought object.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Zelda on April 27, 2003, 04:43:04 PM: Not another Rare topic...

Goldeneye was good. that's the only Rare game I really liked. But most of their other stuff sucked.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 27, 2003, 06:03:14 PM: Funny how everybody raved about Rare before MS picked them up. Seems like most of the negativity is just dillusioning (bascially people convincing themselves they never liked Rare so they don't care Rare left). I loved almost all of Rare's games- all the SNES DKC's, Goldeneye (which I still think is by far the best console FPS), Perfect Dark, Banjo Kazooie/Tooie (both incredible platformers), Conker's Bad Fur Day, Star Fox 64, Diddy Kong Racing, Star Fox Adventures. In my opinion, Rare was easily Nintendo's best 2nd-party.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Grey Ninja on April 27, 2003, 06:13:22 PM: mouse clicker, I had very high hopes that Star Fox Adventures was another Rare classic along the lines of Conker's Bad Fur Day, but it just wasn't. I was never really all that enthused about Kameo, even before Rare left. I don't like Banjo Kazooie, Jet Force Gemini, Battletoads, or Donkey Kong 64. Rare did make games that I found VERY addictive and fun though, such as Donkey Kong Country, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Goldeneye, and Perfect Dark. The spiritual successors to those games are no longer with Rare. (possible exception of Conker's Bad Fur Day)
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: masterShigeru on April 28, 2003, 03:19:11 AM: Hey I heard talk about the Stampa Bros. leaving Rareware when they were bought out.... but I havent heard anything about since.

When did they leave!?

Without the Stampa Bros. Rare are definately not the same.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 28, 2003, 03:21:26 AM: I guess it comes down to taste- I just find it odd nobody felt the need to vocalize their dislike for Rare BEFORE Nintendo sold them to Microsoft.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Mario on April 28, 2003, 04:03:21 AM: I've always loved Rare and i still do. Just wait for E3
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: nonjagged on April 28, 2003, 07:49:22 AM: Is it funny how many ppl say Rare is no longer what they use to be.
Sure many original members disbanded however due to M$ investing so much to get their hands on the NAME & the FRANCHISES, its surprising no one has the ability and or courage to actually admit that M$ will offer huge "money hat" incentives to lure great developers/artists to join Rare to fill the gaps which hopefully will fill the gaps in the Xbox software lineup.
Its quite stupid speculating (M$ invested so much of their Windows funds into Rare) to then just sit on their thumbs and watch Rare goof off.

In my opinion Rare could steal the show (E3) if Nintendo doesnt have some suprises for us. I once heard Rare had been hard at work on having 5-10 titles to show at E3 2003.
If it pans out that way, I will then make judgment on whether M$ has invested and re-structured Rare rewardingly when Rare show us their work. Until then I make no predictions on Rare's future.

Nintendo may have made the right decision even if Rare does rise again because we wonder whether there would be a market for rehashed Rare franchises on Gamecube when Xbox so dearly needs them.

2003 = The Year of the Fund Q & Triforce.

As for a Nintendo surprise at E3.
I want them to announce a Triforce AC version of Mario Karts: Double Dash only that this version is called All Stars: Double Dash because it features Nintendo, Capcom, Namco, Sega charcaters.

Sonic, Mega Man, Starfox, etc
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: nolimit19 on April 28, 2003, 08:02:16 AM: well a lot of the big boys did leave. and i dont think that they are the same. i mean they may be as good(star fox doesnt show it). i mean u can only take so much. rare does not know how to meet dead lines. and after year of development, star fox still wasnt that great. they were great. i loved them in the 64 days. blast corps and golden eye were the only ones i owned i think, but golden eye is arguably the best first person shooter of all time. i loved it. in a way that i may never love another game. it just never got boring and was really challenging. i am willing to bet me and my family spent up to 500 hours on that thing.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: ThePerm on April 28, 2003, 09:44:11 AM: the stampers are still there...but however...there seems to be something different about them. The bald one seems to be kinda spacey now. "I just want to make great games" but he repeats it in a transe way. The one who still has hair seems to have all his marbles with him. Goto gamerweb and check out their interview with ed fries.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on April 28, 2003, 09:54:14 AM: Rare did loose steam after the N64 era. Im sure Nintendo had reasons to sell them, and while SFA was arguably great (I found it quite fun, but it was nothing compard to Zelda WW) it took them too long and didnt meet expectation at all.

Im not sure what Nintendo will or has done with the money they made, but so far im entirely happy with the cube lineup.
And im gonna buy a Xbox yet the Rare games dont tickle my fancy as of yet, that might change, but Kameo and Jo-Anime Dark arent my kinda games.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Ninja X on April 28, 2003, 11:16:24 AM: Some of you here do not remember that Star Fox Adventures was delayed for so long because it was once on the Nintendo 64 and it was entirely different then. The title was Dinosaur Planet and the main character was not Fox McCloud.

I found a couple of you also seem to be judging Rare on Star Fox Adventures. It is only one title. On the Nintendo 64, their titles were widely accepted and possibly all of them did well in the eyes of gamers and critics. Even Donkey Kong 64 sold well and received above-average scores from critics. Star Fox Adventures was not really Rare-quality, but the scores it got from critics were somewhat on par with Donkey Kong 64.

Even if Star Fox Adventures was a miss in your eyes, it is only one title. Yet, to some of you, having one bad title seems to signify the downfall of a well-respected company.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: couchmonkey on April 28, 2003, 12:39:59 PM: I definitely agree with Ninja X. Star Fox Adventures is not an indication of how things are going for Rare in general. We could just as easily blame Nintendo for all of that game's problems since it was Nintendo that insisted Rare move the project to GameCube and use the StarFox liscence.

But the proof is in the pudding...what does that mean anyway? Umm, my point is, at E3, I expect Rare to show at least three games, and then we will see if Rare has really gone bad.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Armed on April 28, 2003, 03:48:09 PM: Rare was the reason i bought my n64. When i rented Goldeneye on n64 at blockbuster that is when i found my system, but following titles after Goldeney it felt like they lost there spark because i couldn't get into them anymore especially DK and Conker.... So i don't care about Rare anymore my first person shooter now is Timesplitters and i heard along time ago that most of the original people that worked on Goldeneye split anyway.

What i really want to know about is Gamezero, and SiliconKnights secret title at e3.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: "Sky" on April 28, 2003, 03:52:28 PM: Star Fox 64 WAS NOT developed by Rare.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Termin8Anakin on April 28, 2003, 04:18:49 PM: I heard that the Stamper Bros. actually retired from games.
If that is true, then the whole Rare philosophy is gone. Rare was the Stamper Bros. And Nintendo made them into the respectable people they are today.
The reason why they say in a spacey way that 'I just wast to make great games' is because they still have a greater respect for Nintendo than they do for Microsoft. It's not as if they're at Microsoft and therefore they are 100% loyal. They may be development-wise, but mentally, they will always be loyal to Nintendo.

I look forward to their offerings at E3. But I dread they day when I see tons of Rare games under the Xbox banner on TV commercials. That's the day when I know they're truly gone.

And I agree. One game is not an indication of how things are going for Rare, but it is an indication of their future products. Rare will have to offer something truly revolutionary ro recapture audiences under a new name. If Banjo turns into something reminicent of Munch's Odysee, then yeah, Rare sux. But if it is an extension of the N64 counterparts, then all will be happy. Seeing Banjo in full FMV-style glory is what I've dreamed of since it was still in developement for Gamecube.
So Banjo is the only game I'm looking forward to from Rare. Kameo, Perfect Dark and Conker aren't up there, but I know I am going to cry and be jealous. So are all of you.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: PIAC on April 28, 2003, 04:34:51 PM: i wont!

seize that guy! and er... throw him out the airlock

yarrrrrrrr

that was the wrong guy...

i think everyone gets the point hm hm?
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Ace on April 28, 2003, 08:29:05 PM: Although many of you think that's wrong to judge Rare on SFA, I feel it's the right thing to judge a company on it's latest effort. Rare was known for not being terribly original but taking a good idea and running with it. With all the rumors of people leaving and such, it's hard to tell what kind of company Rare is anymore. Rare used to be, and maybe is an amazing company, although not terribly original. They took a classic character that got left in Mario's dust (Donkey Kong) and single handedly used him to save the SNES against the Playstation. They were the company that brought Nintendo back to the arcades. They were the company that did the impossible, beat Mario at his own game with Banjo-Kazooie. And they created the most famous FPS since Doom with Goldeneye. So what do all these achivements mean now? If SFA is any indication, it shows a company that is past it's prime and is trying to relish in its glory days. Even with all the problems Rare has, I miss them too.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: couchmonkey on April 29, 2003, 08:25:01 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Ace
Rare was known for not being terribly original but taking a good idea and running with it.

I just have to argue with that! Solar Jetman, Blast Corps, and Battletoads are among the most original gaming experiences I have ever had. Even many of the less original titles like Conker and Jet Force Gemini have a certain "difference" to them that I think few developers can compete with. I was expecting Kameo to be the next really innovative title in Rare's portfolio, but now I may never play it.

But life goes on! I have other fun games to play, and while Rare will be sorely missed, I think Nintendo will keep the void filled for me.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Matthew on April 29, 2003, 08:58:59 AM: I miss Banjo-Kazooie. BK and Banjo-Tooie were my favourite games ever. If Rare ever gets around to making a third one I'm going to want a XBox.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Ace on April 29, 2003, 01:31:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
Quote
Originally posted by: Ace
Rare was known for not being terribly original but taking a good idea and running with it.

I just have to argue with that! Solar Jetman, Blast Corps, and Battletoads are among the most original gaming experiences I have ever had. Even many of the less original titles like Conker and Jet Force Gemini have a certain "difference" to them that I think few developers can compete with. I was expecting Kameo to be the next really innovative title in Rare's portfolio, but now I may never play it.

But life goes on! I have other fun games to play, and while Rare will be sorely missed, I think Nintendo will keep the void filled for me.

Couch, I've never heard of Solar Jetman, but I will admit that Blast Corps was an original idea from Rare, but there wern't many. I also completely agree with your thoughts on Conker and Jet Force. It seemed that even if you didn't know what game you were playing, you could tell it was Rare because of the way it handled. It's a really odd feeling that only Nintendo has besides Rare. That is why we miss them so much. It's like when you play a Rare game, you know you're playing a classic
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Ace on April 29, 2003, 01:31:01 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
Quote
Originally posted by: Ace
Rare was known for not being terribly original but taking a good idea and running with it.

I just have to argue with that! Solar Jetman, Blast Corps, and Battletoads are among the most original gaming experiences I have ever had. Even many of the less original titles like Conker and Jet Force Gemini have a certain "difference" to them that I think few developers can compete with. I was expecting Kameo to be the next really innovative title in Rare's portfolio, but now I may never play it.

But life goes on! I have other fun games to play, and while Rare will be sorely missed, I think Nintendo will keep the void filled for me.

Couch, I've never heard of Solar Jetman, but I will admit that Blast Corps was an original idea from Rare, but there wern't many. I also completely agree with your thoughts on Conker and Jet Force. It seemed that even if you didn't know what game you were playing, you could tell it was Rare because of the way it handled. It's a really odd feeling that only Nintendo has besides Rare. That is why we miss them so much. It's like when you play a Rare game, you know you're playing a classic
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Ace on April 29, 2003, 01:31:02 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
Quote
Originally posted by: Ace
Rare was known for not being terribly original but taking a good idea and running with it.

I just have to argue with that! Solar Jetman, Blast Corps, and Battletoads are among the most original gaming experiences I have ever had. Even many of the less original titles like Conker and Jet Force Gemini have a certain "difference" to them that I think few developers can compete with. I was expecting Kameo to be the next really innovative title in Rare's portfolio, but now I may never play it.

But life goes on! I have other fun games to play, and while Rare will be sorely missed, I think Nintendo will keep the void filled for me.

Couch, I've never heard of Solar Jetman, but I will admit that Blast Corps was an original idea from Rare, but there wern't many. I also completely agree with your thoughts on Conker and Jet Force. It seemed that even if you didn't know what game you were playing, you could tell it was Rare because of the way it handled. It's a really odd feeling that only Nintendo has besides Rare. That is why we miss them so much. It's like when you play a Rare game, you know you're playing a classic
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Ace on April 29, 2003, 01:31:02 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
Quote
Originally posted by: Ace
Rare was known for not being terribly original but taking a good idea and running with it.

I just have to argue with that! Solar Jetman, Blast Corps, and Battletoads are among the most original gaming experiences I have ever had. Even many of the less original titles like Conker and Jet Force Gemini have a certain "difference" to them that I think few developers can compete with. I was expecting Kameo to be the next really innovative title in Rare's portfolio, but now I may never play it.

But life goes on! I have other fun games to play, and while Rare will be sorely missed, I think Nintendo will keep the void filled for me.

Couch, I've never heard of Solar Jetman, but I will admit that Blast Corps was an original idea from Rare, but there wern't many. I also completely agree with your thoughts on Conker and Jet Force. It seemed that even if you didn't know what game you were playing, you could tell it was Rare because of the way it handled. It's a really odd feeling that only Nintendo has besides Rare. That is why we miss them so much. It's like when you play a Rare game, you know you're playing a classic
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Ace on April 29, 2003, 01:31:45 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
Quote
Originally posted by: Ace
Rare was known for not being terribly original but taking a good idea and running with it.

I just have to argue with that! Solar Jetman, Blast Corps, and Battletoads are among the most original gaming experiences I have ever had. Even many of the less original titles like Conker and Jet Force Gemini have a certain "difference" to them that I think few developers can compete with. I was expecting Kameo to be the next really innovative title in Rare's portfolio, but now I may never play it.

But life goes on! I have other fun games to play, and while Rare will be sorely missed, I think Nintendo will keep the void filled for me.

Couch, I've never heard of Solar Jetman, but I will admit that Blast Corps was an original idea from Rare, but there wern't many. I also completely agree with your thoughts on Conker and Jet Force. It seemed that even if you didn't know what game you were playing, you could tell it was Rare because of the way it handled. It's a really odd feeling that only Nintendo has besides Rare. That is why we miss them so much. It's like when you play a Rare game, you know you're playing a classic
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: cubist on April 29, 2003, 04:17:23 PM: The Stamper Bros. came out of retirement after the Microsoft buyout in case you people have forgotten. If you looked at the official Rareware website after the buyout, Chris Stamper left a message for all the Rare fans to read. It gave me the impression that they were going to be more hands-on with the company again. As much as I have been a Nintendo fan, there were many voids filled by Rare during the N64 era, especially the slow first generation when for the first three months the only games out were Super Mario 64, Pilotwings 64, and Waverace 64. The following February brought Blast Corps, which filled many nights of excellent gameplay.

If you think for one second that the rotating "R" before every game has lost its magic, I'm hoping they prove us all wrong. We should wish them the best of luck and hopefully the next generation of gamers will get the same type of magic we got from them. Don't hate on 'em, just like we don't want anyone to hate on the Big 'N.

On a side note, Starfox Adventures was one of the better graphical and audio experiences all year...but there was a lack of depth. To echo what most people have posted before, one game is not a sign of a company losing its edge...just like I don't expect people to judge Nintendo with titles like Yoshi's Story back in the N64 days. Now that was terrible and I can't believe I bought it.

I hope I don't experience that on the E3 showfloor...

cUbIsT
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Dr Synthetic on April 29, 2003, 07:36:52 PM: I honestly don't see why so many people take up for Rare at all.

They turned out a couple of decent N64 titles, one amazing one (GoldenEye). The only outstanding stuff they'd done at the end of the Super NES was DKC... the second and third Donkey Kong Country titles were horrible and uninspired.

Their games took too long to come out, they were decent at best (outside of a little luck), and weren't worth the hype the Nintendo loyalists heaped on them in the Nintendo 64 generation in the first place. You'd heap praise on them too (and likely did) if they were the only company truly supporting the N64 other than Nintendo, which they were.

It's 100% fair to judge a company by its last title... particularly when it took them so long and sucked so horribly. Some of the second party games that came out last year were Silicon Knights' Eternal Darkness, Rare's StarFox Adventures, and Retro Studios' Metroid Prime. Two of those titles are hands-down amazing, and the other one was the biggest disappointment many of us have ever received. Nintendo kicked Rare to the curb because they were an overappreciated over-hyped developer who got grandfathered into the new generation with a huge ego from hype based on their success in the *last* generation... where they JUST so happened to not have any competition. In this generation, however, Rare's many flaws were super-evident the day that SFA was released, and Nintendo had obviously noted their lack of value before we got the opportunity to test the goods as they had the Microsoft deal ready before the fact.

Honestly, guys. If Nintendo had wanted Rare, all they had to do was buy 2% of Rare's stock to hold the majority. They looked close and saw what any logically thinking human would see... that Rare was the product of being in the right place at the right time and didn't happen to be worth *nearly* as much as they had been during the 8-bit and 16-bit consoles quality-wise. Fortunately, Microsoft believed the same thing that Rare did: that Rare was worth a lot of money, so it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. It turns out that Rare was indeed worth a lot of money... to Nintendo, as a used-up developer, sold to the richest company in the world. Do you think they're going to make Microsoft their money back? Not bloody likely, friends. A lot closer to impossible.

If you're still not seeing it clearly, think about Too Human, Metroid Prime 2, and Kameo: Elements of Power. Which one is the one you're least interested in? Nine out of ten of you will say Kameo, hands down. Finally, when viewed under good light, Rare has been exposed as the totally weak developer that they are. I, for one, am glad that they are no longer around to churn out mediocre games on my console of choice. I'm also glad they no longer have the right to bastardize some of Nintendo's favorite franchises, from StarFox to Donkey Kong.

And yeah, I agree with the idea that many Nintendo loyalists are only turning on Rare because they're with Microsoft now. There are some of us who actually have genuine disgust for Rare's underwhelming existence... but really, who cares? At least the fanboys are finally getting it right. Rare was sub-par all along.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Mario on April 30, 2003, 03:19:27 AM: WTF? Your opinion isnt a fact! In my opinion, Rare are one of the greatest developers in the gaming industry, (Perfect Dark, Goldeneye, Banjo Kazooie etc. are some of the most praised games of all time) saying they're "decent at best" is an ignorant statement.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: cubist on April 30, 2003, 06:24:27 AM: Dr. Synthetic, you have a very good point about fanboys getting it right. If anyone is a fanboy and is guilty of fanboyism, its me. However, to mention that Rare was subpar all along is something that I'm having trouble accepting. I think that they've had a long history of churning out high quality titles over the years, starting with the NES days. From RC Pro Am, Battletoads, the DKC SNES and DKL GB/GBC series, Killer Instinct, Blast Corps, Banjo-Kazooie and Tooie, Perfect Dark, Diddy Kong Racing, Conker's Bad Fur Day, and the standard-setting Goldeneye. They've also had a good showing with even DK64, Jet Force, Gemini, and Starfox Adventures -- although not as enjoyable as the previously mentioned title. Add them all up, and I haven't included other titles, and referring to them as "subpar" does not do them justice.

cUbIsT
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: couchmonkey on April 30, 2003, 07:33:01 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Dr Synthetic

If you're still not seeing it clearly, think about Too Human, Metroid Prime 2, and Kameo: Elements of Power. Which one is the one you're least interested in? Nine out of ten of you will say Kameo, hands down. Finally, when viewed under good light, Rare has been exposed as the totally weak developer that they are. I, for one, am glad that they are no longer around to churn out mediocre games on my console of choice. I'm also glad they no longer have the right to bastardize some of Nintendo's favorite franchises, from StarFox to Donkey Kong.

First of all, it was Nintendo's decision to force the StarFox liscence on Dinosaur Planet and it was Nintendo's decision to let Rare use the DK liscence. If Nintendo thought Rare was doing a bad job, it should have kept its liscences to itself, Rare didn't ask for them.

Second of all, you're making up statistics. You think nine out of ten of us will pick Kameo as our least-anticipated game of the three, but you have no proof of that. I for one am part of the "one out of ten" that is more interested in Kameo than either of those games. For that matter, anticipation says nothing about the quality of the final product. Luigi's Mansion was no doubt the most anticipated launch game for the GameCube, but does that make it better than Super Monkey Ball or Pikmin? Many of us would argue that DOA: Beach Volleyball is overrated, but I bet it was more anticipated than Animal Crossing, Pikmin or Eternal Darkness.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: joshnickerson on April 30, 2003, 07:38:50 AM: I agree Rare was overhyped towards the end of the N64's lifetime; I didn't enjoy Conker or Banjo-Tooie or Perfect Dark nearly as much as their earlier games, but they did churn out some pretty good games. The DKC series was excellent, though at times annoyingly difficult, Banjo-Kazzoie was fun, Goldeneye set new standards for FPS and Blast Corps was pretty unique. I didn't like Diddy Kong Racing, Donkey Kong 64 or the Killer Instinct series much. Their Gameboy offerings were crap. Seriously, go back and play Donkey Kong Land and tell me it wasn't horribly programmed.
But honestly, the only Rare Cube offerings that I was interested in was Star Fox Adventures and Donkey Kong Racing. And after playing through Star Fox, I won't miss Donkey Kong Racing so much.
Donkey Kong Racing became Saberman Racing. Kameo turned into some refugee from Ferngully. Perfect Dark is now about a cheerleader in a spy suit.
I won't say that Rare is a bad developer. I will say they WERE an incredible game developer, but they lost their way as they focused more on graphics and less on core gameplay. And I doubt Microsoft will help them with that, just as long as Joanna's boobs bounce realisticly. I do hope they do make excellent games again, even if they are on the evil green box.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Alacrity on May 01, 2003, 03:50:06 PM: Rare is worthless.
Taking the NES/SNES days into account is unacceptable. Even TECMO had good games that long ago. Woohoo... they gave us a revolutionary FPS on the N64. That was yesterday- what have they done for us today? Free Radical is a more than worthy successor. TimeSplitters 2 is out. I don't even know why I'm still hearing about GoldenEye anymore.

"Rare are one of the greatest developers in the gaming industry" because of GoldenEye, Perfect Dark and Banjo Kazooie?
.....
Perfect Dark is practically a GoldenEye expansion, and... Banjo Kazooie? WTF. I can't believe that title has been mentioned so frequently in Rare's defense- It's COMPLETELY RETARDED.

I'm SO glad Nintendo ditched them... a few less pre-teen, ill-conceived, outdated franchises for me to weed through in the GameCube aisle.

By the way, "9 out of 10" isn't a legitimate statistic... it's a figure of speech, no different from you saying that "Many of us would argue that DOA: Beach Volleyball is overrated, but I bet it was more anticipated than Animal Crossing, Pikmin or Eternal Darkness" (at least Synthetic's assumption was sensible... anyone who was more excited about DOA Volleyball than Animal Crossing, Pikmin or Eternal Darkness is f*cking stupid).
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Big_Pimp on May 01, 2003, 03:59:21 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: Alacrity
Rare is worthless.
Taking the NES/SNES days into account is unacceptable. Even TECMO had good games that long ago. Woohoo... they gave us a revolutionary FPS on the N64. That was yesterday- what have they done for us today? Free Radical is a more than worthy successor. TimeSplitters 2 is out. I don't even know why I'm still hearing about GoldenEye anymore.

"Rare are one of the greatest developers in the gaming industry" because of GoldenEye, Perfect Dark and Banjo Kazooie?"
.....
Perfect Dark is practically a GoldenEye expansion, and... Banjo Kazooie? WTF. I can't believe that title has been mentioned so frequently in Rare's defense- It's COMPLETELY RETARDED.

I'm SO glad Nintendo ditched them... a few less pre-teen, ill-conceived, outdated franchises for me to weed through in the GameCube aisle.

Your very right, who cares about Rare anyways, oooh they gave us Goldeneye for N64 (fun game though), its outdated by todays standards, Halo pimp smacked that game. Sure Goldeneye made FPS games popular but Halo perfected the genre (well almost). Kinda went out of the subject right there didnt I.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: iamtheearth on May 01, 2003, 07:21:46 PM: I gotta say, Rare were good, but imo the only games that they made that were TRUE classics were teh DKC series on SNES, and then Goldeneye. Everything else was just not "up there". PD was a massive dissapointment for me, and i'd rather not waste my time on CBFD.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Dr Synthetic on May 01, 2003, 08:04:06 PM: Nintendo allowed Rare to use their properties because they didn't have time to make games for those properties and no one else (in the N64 generation) would do any of the work for Nintendo.

Judging Rare by what they did for the NES is ridiculous. Ooh, Wizards & Warriors... R.C. Pro-Am... Battletoads. All awesome games, but all close to *fifteen years* previous. And Banjo-Kazooie? Please. Rare's overly-tired "find such-and-such item to access such-and-such area" is one of the most boring gameplay progression vehicles ever. Sure, I may be talking a fake statistic when I mention that nine out of ten people are least interested in Kameo over Metroid Prime 2 and Too Human, but really, I think I hit the nail just about on the head with my guestimate. No one gives a fourth of a damn about Kameo that knows anything about video games, because it will most assuredly be Banjo and StarFox Adventures all over again. Jeez, I can't wait for some wonderful graphics followed up with a shoddy story, stale gameplay and a difficulty level that a child could laugh at.

I'll say it again: I can't believe people stand by Rare no matter what. You act like you lost an arm or something. They're a shoddy developer with a terrible track record over the last decade and they certainly aren't going to make anything of any value over at Microsoft. They're better off wasting Bill Gates' money while Silicon Knights and Retro Studios make good use of Nintendo's time and properties.

You can bet your ass that Nintendo would never let Rare touch Metroid... and you can also bet your ass that Konami would never let Rare touch Metal Gear. There's a reason Rare didn't get to do legitimate games in Nintendo franchise series outside of Donkey Kong (SFA doesn't count, it's not even a shooter). It's because Rare was really good for the N64 era. They just don't cut it anymore. Their delays are horrible, their work isn't worth the money, and they've got an amazingly huge collective ego that needs to be knocked down about thirteen notches.

Screw Rare. I'm glad they're gone. Silicon Knights and Retro Studios are far superior replacements. They've actually MADE GOOD on the promise of five-star games.

The Good Doctor
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: corwin on May 02, 2003, 04:43:09 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Zelda
Not another Rare topic...

Goldeneye was good. that's the only Rare game I really liked. But most of their other stuff sucked.

Don't forget those Donkey Kong games on SNES.... those are good games.
Altough I must admit that after goldeneye I haven't played any rare game....save for perfect dark a few moments....
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: StRaNgE on May 02, 2003, 07:27:22 AM: i enjoyed the story of conker as well as the mini capture the flag game. i would love to see a full blown game based of the mechanics of that alone, bigger levels more weapons and way more to do as well as all kinds of crazy charecters, i do not mean that it needs to be conker related at all. but myself and friends had many fun hours on that alone .
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: couchmonkey on May 02, 2003, 07:50:29 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Alacrity
Rare is worthless.

By the way, "9 out of 10" isn't a legitimate statistic... it's a figure of speech, no different from you saying that "Many of us would argue that DOA: Beach Volleyball is overrated, but I bet it was more anticipated than Animal Crossing, Pikmin or Eternal Darkness" (at least Synthetic's assumption was sensible... anyone who was more excited about DOA Volleyball than Animal Crossing, Pikmin or Eternal Darkness is f*cking stupid).

I absolutely agree that anyone who was more excited about DOA Volleyball than those other titles is stupid, but guess what? The stupids are winning! Did you notice how long all of the DOA: BV previews were locked up by the pay sites? Months! That's because everyone wanted screenshots from the game, and I bet they sold a hell of a lot of subscriptions. It took 10th place in sales in North America during January and it's also the game that helped Xbox outsell the GameCube in Japan. The same Japan where the usual Xbox sales are something like one or two thousand per week (1,023 this week according to Media Create).

So don't tell me DOA: Beach Volleyball wasn't anticipated. It might be the worst game on earth, but people wanted it.

As for Rare, I'm obviously not going to change anyone's mind here, so I guess I'll just have to wait until the verdict on their Xbox games comes in.
Title: Nintendo and Rare
Post by: Audio_of_Being on May 02, 2003, 08:08:43 AM: I haven't bought a Rare game in about 4 years. I rented all their latest releases, but they never had a lasting impression on me. I was only actually looking forward to PD on the GC, I couldn't of cared less for Kameo, A new B-K game(not after how horrendous Banjo-Tooie was), I absolutely hated what they did to Star Fox and Donkey Kong, and before you say that it was Miyamoto who wanted Star Fox in Dinosaur Planet, Remember: It would've most likely still been an average Zelda clone, only less memorable without Star Fox. I personally think Rare should stick to FPS's from now on, because they butchered their last couple of 3rd person games(Platformers and Adventures).