Gaming Forums => General Gaming => Topic started by: Plugabugz on July 19, 2009, 07:12:56 PM
Title: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Plugabugz on July 19, 2009, 07:12:56 PM
It's almost like thomas the tank engine really: Nintendo partially has some blame for this, but marketing and developers moreso. We know that Wii isn't as powerful as 360/PS3. That is accepted fact. So why is there continual comparisons to other platforms? They are competitor products but you can't compare a bus to llama.
Games like the conduit don't help by saying WE LOOK AS GOOD AS WHATS ON HD PLATFORMS but then, we know full well, it can't.
High Lord Lindy said:
Quote
What I really dislike is that there are so many game reviewers out there that are openly hostile to the Wii platform, and to a lesser extent Nintendo in general. When I looked around and read other reviews of The Conduit, I couldn't believe how many reviewers treated the task of reviewing the game as secondary, instead preferring to use the review as a soapbox to rant about how the Wii hardware is ill-equipped to handle first-person shooters. I've always felt that it's a reviewer's responsibility to put any personal feelings about a platform, game, or developer aside and review the game vis-a-vis with the hardware that it appears on.
My friend replied to me about it:
Quote
at the end of the day you have to take the platform into account because *there is much better quality stuff coming out of the other two*. If the reviewer is used to that quality bar being higher then of course wii stuff that tries to be as good but fails is going to get slammed
Which, in principle, makes sense. If you're going to compare a shooter then compare it to all on the platform firstly, then genre-wide if the genre is progressing elsewhere. But, the same principle doesn't work in reverse if it's another platform. I said to him "So why doesn't 360/PS3 games with online functionality get docked points if it doesn't have cross-platform play? "Because the Wii doesn't do that"
So really, what i'm asking at the end of this convoluted mess is, do you agree with his final statement:
"You accept when nintendo aims to broaden the market that you get games that appeal to all and a minimum of quality shooter titles, you can't turn around and complain when the hardware doesn't do it as well as the others - it's not a one-size-fits-all console, though you might like it to be"
Thoughts?
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Stratos on July 19, 2009, 08:06:42 PM
Conduit is a great shooter for someone who wants an FPS with Wii controls. It makes it more enjoyable than Team Fortress 2 or Halo in that regard. I just played TF2 on PC and was surprised at how different it felt. I have played so much Conduit that it felt strange and even slightly unintuitive to use a mouse again. I was surprised. I'm sure playing some more PC shooters again will loosen me back up but I'm actually prefer Wiimote to a mouse.
In other areas, sure, it isn't up to snuff, but it is the best option on the platform.
Do people rate DS and PSP games on the same plain as consoles? What of WiiWare/PSN/XBLA games? They do not. So Wii and HD games should also not be compared on the same level.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Mop it up on July 19, 2009, 08:16:57 PM
Do people rate DS and PSP games on the same plain as consoles?
Of course not because portables are way different than consoles. But they are compared to each other, though not as much as they used to be.
I think it is silly to put the Wii into a separate category than the XBox 360 and PS3. That's like admitting it isn't as good and it needs to be put into its own category to feel special.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Stratos on July 19, 2009, 08:19:13 PM
Do people rate DS and PSP games on the same plain as consoles?
Of course not because portables are way different than consoles. But they are compared to each other, though not as much as they used to be.
I think it is silly to put the Wii into a separate category than the XBox 360 and PS3. That's like admitting it isn't as good and it needs to be put into its own category to feel special.
Graphically it is not as good as the other systems, though. And it also has a very different type of input device from them too. What is wrong with placing it in a separate catagory? I see no issue with that.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Mop it up on July 19, 2009, 08:23:19 PM
It's a videogaming console, one you play on your television. Just because the graphics aren't as good and the controller is a little different doesn't mean it should be put into its own category. It's still a videogame console and therefore comparable to other gaming consoles.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Guitar Smasher on July 19, 2009, 10:51:35 PM
I think you have to pay special consideration to what makes one game 'better' than another. Certainly better graphics are a positive, but if a better controlling game is stuck with less than stellar graphics, it shouldn't be written off. It's fair to rate these as separate categories, but the overall score should be reflective of the game's entertainment value. Too often it seems that reviewers put more emphasis on the technical merits, instead of the entertainment value. And I agree that many use the 'reviews' for editorials of their opinions of the console of topic.
Summary: Wii games should be measured against 360/PS3 games in terms of entertainment value.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Stratos on July 19, 2009, 11:04:20 PM
Summary: Wii games should be measured against 360/PS3 games in terms of entertainment value.
Well said. I whole-heartedly agree. Entertainment value is a good place to compare them.
Also, I don't think I've met you yet, Guitar Smasher, I'm Stratos. Nice to meet you!
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: broodwars on July 19, 2009, 11:10:47 PM
My basic mantra is that every game should be evaluated on its own merits, regardless of console. If I pick up a game on the PS2/Wii/PS3/whatever and I'm having fun, what platform it's on doesn't matter because all that's important is that I'm enjoying my time with the game. While I don't think it's fair to compare something like the graphics in The Conduit to the graphics of say...Resident Evil 5, I do think it's fair to say something like "I had more fun playing Resident Evil 5 than I did The Conduit, therefore Resident Evil 5 is better." You can't say that Wii games aren't comparable to titles on other platforms because they are, but you have to compare them in the only ways that matter: how that game makes you feel, and whether the game is designed well.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Peachylala on July 19, 2009, 11:39:06 PM
Quote
Well said. I whole-heartedly agree. Entertainment value is a good place to compare them.
Game reviewers are too stupid to do this though. If Wii was HD from the get go, it would get half the amount of **** flung at it.
Or not. Since the N64 days, the media just hates Nintendo. I guess they hate entertainment value when it's not in BROWN shading.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Mop it up on July 20, 2009, 01:00:17 AM
Summary: Wii games should be measured against 360/PS3 games in terms of entertainment value.
Exactly. And that doesn't involve putting them into a category all their own.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: UncleBob on July 20, 2009, 01:12:44 AM
I think people expect way too much out of the individuals reviewing games. Just review the game based on whatever criteria you feel necessary an let the people reading your reviews judge if they give two shits about your opinion.
Face it - someone doing a review has to look at the genre of the game, the controls of the game, the artistic merit of the game (graphics, audio and story telling) - then, they have to compare how they perceive all of this to how they've perceived other games in the past.
Since we've all likely played different games - on different platforms - at various points in time - and at various skill levels - with different preferences, we're all going to have different opinions on what makes a game fun or not.
Take Halbred's review of Birds and Beans, for example. This is a simple, $2 game - ideally there shouldn't be much to debate on it. However, he, apparently, disliked it greatly. "I have buyer's remorse over a free game, so that should tell you something."
Five replies down, someone says "Funny enough this was a "killer app" for me."
So, we go from "I feel bad I wasted the money Nintendo gave me" to "I bought a $170 system for this game" - all over a $2 game.
Those of us (I'm assuming rbtr based on his mini-review of the title and myself) who were raised on arcade-like shooters can appreciate the quality put into this title and would recommend it - I'd say it's worth the $2 easily. $5 even. However, it seems to me that Halbred likely wasn't raised with the Arcade-Space-Shooting Genre - a type of game play that's so simple and repetitive that it's easy to understand why so many people can't stand to play one for more than a few minutes.
All of this analyzing over a $2 game. And you want to establish a guide for a "fair" review of $50, multi-million dollar development titles?
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 20, 2009, 07:41:15 AM
Well put UncleBob.
I understand where Lindy is coming from when he made his assertion. Reviewing The Conduit against other system's FPS titles is not entirely fair. You can certainly make assertions about the relative quality of the title (i.e. How is the game presented and does it follow accepted, popular game design?) given other titles in its genre.
However you can't go into the nitpicky end of things, such as Graphical and Aural presentations because obviously Wii is not as capable as either of the competing systems. Therefore in both of these categories you need to review the game against relative merits.
Something like online play is a bit of a balancing act. On one hand, the Wii is capable of doing online, so you can draw comparisons to online play offered on the other systems. On the other hand, the Wii is barely capable of online, so it's not entirely fair to make that judgment. Ultimately, this part will come down to the reviewer. In my opinion, you need to mention both but when making a judgment on score you need to compare it relatively to other Wii titles.
If we flipped all of this the other way, would anyone say it's fair to knock down the control in a 360 game because you can't use Wii Remote and Nunchuk or a Mouse and Keyboard set up? Obviously, considering what the system offers, doing this would be ludicrous. So sometimes you need to draw comparisons only to relevant titles on the system of choice.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 20, 2009, 07:47:26 AM
Sorry for the double post, but this is also worth mentioning.
Keep in mind that HVS is no AAA FPS development house. I honestly didn't like The Conduit, mostly because I felt their inexperience was shining through in all facets of the game. It's certainly a passable title but it's not outstanding by any means.
Also keep in mind that AAA FPS developers aren't interested in working with the Wii because they can't push HD graphics which they've so firmly invested in. If these companies took the time and spent the same or even slightly less to make a Wii game, I guarantee you'd wind up with something far more impressive than efforts on any HD system thanks to the control setup.
The biggest problem here is that the Wii is still brushed aside by so many companies. If they would just give it a chance and invest a little, I think their return would be massive.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on July 20, 2009, 09:49:13 AM
Quote
If we flipped all of this the other way, would anyone say it's fair to knock down the control in a 360 game because you can't use Wii Remote and Nunchuk or a Mouse and Keyboard set up?
I see Nintendo fans doing this very thing all the time. I have seen a thousand comments in the vein of
"______ is pretty good, but dual thumbstick is SO archaic."
Is it archaic if all of the bestselling FPS titles still use it? This was especially prevalent when Metroid Prime 3 launched opposite Bioshock.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: SixthAngel on July 20, 2009, 10:21:14 AM
Conduit is a great shooter for someone who wants an FPS with Wii controls. It makes it more enjoyable than Team Fortress 2 or Halo in that regard. I just played TF2 on PC and was surprised at how different it felt. I have played so much Conduit that it felt strange and even slightly unintuitive to use a mouse again. I was surprised. I'm sure playing some more PC shooters again will loosen me back up but I'm actually prefer Wiimote to a mouse.
It drives me crazy how so many people always cheer for the mouse and keybord. The level of reaction time it gives the hardcore players is ridiculous. It gives the average person's character superhuman reflexes and the it allows the crazies to spin around twice and shoot four people in the head in two seconds with perfect accurracy. Don't get me started on the mandatory ability to strafe at running speed in any direction with nearly no effect on aim. M&KB fps never feel like your actually controlling a person.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on July 20, 2009, 10:34:29 AM
Quote
M&KB fps never feel like your actually controlling a person.
I don't think that's a concern to the people who play FPS for sport.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: ThomasO on July 20, 2009, 10:37:50 AM
I've played Half-Life 2 on a friend's PC and BioShock on my roommate's 360, and I prefer the dual-analog. I always felt the pin-point accuracy on PC was disorienting somehow, with the camera moving so quickly. I also dislike that if I move the mouse too far I must put it back somehow that it'll be comfortable.
I played World of Goo on Wii and tried the demo on my Mac, and the Wii Remote feels a lot more natural than a mouse cursor. I found my reaction time to be a lot faster using the Wii Remote.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 20, 2009, 11:09:48 AM
If we flipped all of this the other way, would anyone say it's fair to knock down the control in a 360 game because you can't use Wii Remote and Nunchuk or a Mouse and Keyboard set up?
I see Nintendo fans doing this very thing all the time. I have seen a thousand comments in the vein of
"______ is pretty good, but dual thumbstick is SO archaic."
Is it archaic if all of the bestselling FPS titles still use it? This was especially prevalent when Metroid Prime 3 launched opposite Bioshock.
I think you're missing my point. I was simply using that as a point of reference. I personally feel it's better, but that's just me.
Also, yes, it is archaic when a Wii Remote & Nunhcuk setup exists. FPS games are all about graphics, so bear in mind that if the Xbox 360 featured a similar control scheme things undoubtedly would have changed.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on July 20, 2009, 11:15:36 AM
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if the Xbox 360 featured a similar control scheme things undoubtedly would have changed.
That certainly is debatable, but I still think that the term archaic is unusable if all relevant FPS games use that system. Certainly, millions upon millions of gamers have absolutely no problem with Dual Analog FPS controls. Even if the Wii Remote & Nunchuck were OBJECTIVELY better (and I don't think they are, they're just a bit different. At least I can play games with dual analog in a room containing ample sunlight, for instance) it's irrelevant if none of the relevant FPS games (IE, the top 10 best selling FPS games) use that scheme.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: EasyCure on July 20, 2009, 11:42:07 AM
if the Xbox 360 featured a similar control scheme things undoubtedly would have changed.
That certainly is debatable, but I still think that the term archaic is unusable if all relevant FPS games use that system. Certainly, millions upon millions of gamers have absolutely no problem with Dual Analog FPS controls. Even if the Wii Remote & Nunchuck were OBJECTIVELY better (and I don't think they are, they're just a bit different. At least I can play games with dual analog in a room containing ample sunlight, for instance) it's irrelevant if none of the relevant FPS games (IE, the top 10 best selling FPS games) use that scheme.
But those relevant FPS games (IE, The top 10 best selling FPS games) use that scheme because the dev-houses are more about pushing graphics (and to a lesser extent physics) than control. Notice i didn't say "more intuitive" control method because I'm trying not to be biased here. But think about it, if Wii was and HD powerhouse console like the other two platforms, and even if it wasn't getting any exclusive FPS games, just multiplatform releases, don't you think it might change things a bit? Who knows, all of a sudden those top 10 best selling FPS games might be selling BEST on the one console with a different control method.
No one can say that the dual-analog way of controling a FPS is archaic when devs think their "art" is too good to put on Wii (when ironicaly, they might have a better shot at making money they pretend they don't strive for). Only when the playing feild is even will anyone be able to call dual-analog archaic.
As for reviews, i hate them to be honest. I'll read one every now and again but unless there's something that gives me the impression a game is totally not worth my money (ie, broken) i don't put much thought into them. I won't let a score judge my opinion on a game before ever playing it, because how will i ever know if the pros or cons pointed out by said review ever really held up? "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and all that jazz.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on July 20, 2009, 11:45:10 AM
Yep EasyCure, I think we're on the same page.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: EasyCure on July 20, 2009, 11:50:36 AM
Good to know. I don't need enemies :P
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Morari on July 20, 2009, 12:32:16 PM
Hehe... Dual analog sticks in a FPS.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Stogi on July 20, 2009, 03:19:44 PM
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 20, 2009, 03:57:30 PM
So the High Drama Wii games are coming?
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: EasyCure on July 20, 2009, 04:54:42 PM
No. Dev's still hate:
A. Nintendo B. Hard earned money (they prefer moneyhats) C. Swallowing their pride D. Nintendo
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Dirk Temporo on July 20, 2009, 06:25:02 PM
Your friend, like most reviewers, appears to be confusing "better" with "better looking."
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: King of Twitch on July 20, 2009, 07:42:47 PM
The OP isn't very clear..
Quote
"You accept when nintendo aims to broaden the market that you get games that appeal to all and a minimum of quality shooter titles, you can't turn around and complain when the hardware doesn't do it as well as the others - it's not a one-size-fits-all console, though you might like it to be"
I'm not supposed to complain about graphics and lack of good Financially Plausible Shooters since I accept the fact that the Wii isn't a one-size-fits-all console that is trying to broaden the market? This makes less sense than my last two posts combined
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: broodwars on July 20, 2009, 08:17:35 PM
"You accept when nintendo aims to broaden the market that you get games that appeal to all and a minimum of quality shooter titles, you can't turn around and complain when the hardware doesn't do it as well as the others - it's not a one-size-fits-all console, though you might like it to be"
I'm not supposed to complain about graphics and lack of good Financially Plausible Shooters since I accept the fact that the Wii isn't a one-size-fits-all console that is trying to broaden the market? This makes less sense than my last two posts combined
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that contradicting quote made no logical sense, at least how it was (badly) written. It's kind of hard to comment on a quote when I can't understand what it's saying.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Peachylala on July 20, 2009, 09:05:34 PM
A. Nintendo B. Hard earned money (they prefer moneyhats) C. Swallowing their pride D. Nintendo
A/D: 1st party loyalty is the only way to go this generation it seems. =/ B. It will be sad when sad publishers can't give out money hats. C. It should be: "not acknowledging their ignorance" or "the Nintendo fanbase". The second one is iffy because this gen we've somehow become (not all of us) selfish S.O.Bs and Nintendo has to appeal to our every need.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Stratos on July 21, 2009, 04:12:25 AM
The second one is iffy because this gen we've somehow become (not all of us) selfish S.O.Bs and Nintendo has to appeal to our every need.
Haven't we always been SOBs? I know most of us were on the Gamecube and there was even an issue with it on the N64 if I recall.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on July 21, 2009, 07:29:48 AM
If Nintendo didn't appeal to most of our needs in the past, we wouldn't be here on a Nintendo fan forum. Obviously there's a change if so many of us are bitching about it. Either that, or it's mass hallucination.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Stratos on July 21, 2009, 07:38:24 AM
I'm sure this route has been trodden upon before, but could it be a change in us and not Nintendo?
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on July 21, 2009, 08:13:56 AM
I think the most obvious change is that Nintendo used to make games for hardware that was fairly cutting edge, and now they don't. They've told everyone that cutting edge hardware is completely unimportant, and there's a fair amount of fans who have had it so ingrained into us since the 80s that cutting edge hardware is crucial that this just won't fly.
I mean, they're called video games. Video is in the title. Visuals *are* important.
I'm not making any kind of an argument one way or another here, I'm just trying to paraphrase the conflict.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Plugabugz on July 21, 2009, 09:14:23 AM
I will ask him to rephrase it, but i believe he's referring to that we can't complain that FPS's and other genre's won't be as good because it's trying to do everything equally rather than excel in one area or another?
Let me go ask him.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: EasyCure on July 21, 2009, 09:57:20 AM
If Nintendo didn't appeal to most of our needs in the past, we wouldn't be here on a Nintendo fan forum. Obviously there's a change if so many of us are bitching about it. Either that, or it's mass hallucination.
I think one of the biggest differences is marketing. Nintendo releases more of their usual games then ever but fans still complain. They complain because they are pissed Nintendo isn't talking about them and talks about projects focused on others. For years the way to sell games was to talk to the big fans first and then move from there. Nintendo could have went with the power glove approach and said how the remote will make you part of the game and more immersed but instead marketed it as a devise that is easy to use.
Everybody was bitching during the Gamecube too, it certainly isn't new. If I remember correctly the forum name was changed once because of all the whining. Nintendo fans love to whine.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Stogi on July 21, 2009, 01:26:12 PM
This thread needs a big ass METROID M logo.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Stratos on July 21, 2009, 06:05:25 PM
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 21, 2009, 06:19:26 PM
Other Mess
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Ian Sane on July 22, 2009, 12:15:21 PM
I think it's completely fair to compare the Wii to the PS3 and Xbox 360. All consoles, all of the same generation. They're the most recent console of all three console makers and they're all on the shelf competing for our dollars.
Is it fair for the Wii to get crapped on for not being able to match the performance of the other consoles? Well that's kind of iffy but it is useful for consumers to be able tell what console has the best games. I give a 9 to a Wii game that on the PS3 would be worthy of an 8 because it's a 9 "by Wii standards" then out-of-context my score suggests that that game is comparable to a 9 on the PS3 which can misinform. This is why I'm not such a big fan of how IGN has seperate channels for different consoles as it doesn't quite put all the consoles in the same perspective.
I think with multiplatform games (the few there are) direct comparisions are fair since someone may have all three consoles and want to know which version to get. The Cube suffered a lot in direct comparisons regarding games that had online modes. Well the Cube isn't online so is it fair to be judged on a feature you can't match? Yes it is because the Xbox version that had everything the Cube version had PLUS online play is clearly superior. That should be reflected in the review so that if I own both consoles and I do some research I don't buy the inferior version with less features.
The thing with the Wii is that the absolute BEST games on the console still get a fair shake. Super Mario Galaxy is the most praised game of this generation. Nobody crapped on Metroid Prime 3. But those games pushed the Wii hardware and were AAA games made by a AAA developer. They weren't a small time inexperienced dev and they weren't throwaway spinoffs. They were real efforts. Nintendo is probably the only AAA dev that makes any sort of a real effort on the Wii. And the reviewers didn't let their supposed bias get in the way there.
I don't think the Wii is unfairly judged by critics. I think just the vast majority of its library is half-assed. The lack of respect comes from the developers and that is obviously going to affect review scores since nearly every Wii third party game is either:
A. a spin-off B. a port of a last-gen game with tacked on waggle C. shovelware D. a title clearly aimed at children which may or may not be good E. a decent effort by a small dev that just lacks the talent to truly deliver the goods
Games that fall into these categories don't get nominated for GOTY. Never have, never will. These sort of things on other consoles get treated the same way (or would if waggle applied). We saw the same thing on the Cube only we got Capcom busting out a AAA game once in a while and mulitplatform releases that if they didn't involve online components were equal to the other versions. Take the Gamecube and remove the Resident Evil games and multiplatform titles like Prince of Persia and Soul Calibur II and what console does this start to resemble? Hmmmm.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Ymeegod on July 22, 2009, 12:55:45 PM
"I think it's completely fair to compare the Wii to the PS3 and Xbox 360"
Yeah, it works both ways. Zelda and Mario are stardards by what other adventure & platformers are compared to so why shouldn't Half-life and Mass Effect are setting the bar in their genres so it should be a standard when talking about other games.
As for controls, I still pefer the mouse and keyboard for FPS, then dual sticks, and finally the WII. Motion Plus might change this point (Red Steel 2 baby) but for now the remote isn't as accurate as I would like.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 22, 2009, 01:33:07 PM
Are you that terrible at pointing? or you really need those training wheels?
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Rize on July 22, 2009, 02:30:49 PM
Ian nailed it perfectly.
The Wii is so feature poor (especially since I decidedly prefer analog sticks to motion control) that for me a Wii game has almost no chance of drawing my interest. From my perspective, a Wii game is a last gen game. The only way I'm going to be interested in playing a last-gen game is if it is either utterly great/unique (Galaxy, Punch Out, Metroid Prime, Metroid Other M, Zelda) or if I really have nothing better to do. In which case those games have to compete with the best of last gen that I didn't play yet (off the top of my head): Okami Wii, God of War 1 and 2, Final Fantasy 12, Psychonauts, Beyond Good and Evil, Prince of Persia 2 and 3, Jade Empire, Ratchet and Clank 1, 2 and 3, Sly 1, 2 and 3, Jak 3). I'd be more inclined to buy the Metroid Prime Trilogy and replay Prime than play any of those games any time soon.
As far as Conduit in particular, do we really need any more shooters? The only reason I buy things like Killzone 2 is because they look so drop-dead gorgeous. I could imagine playing Conduit to be a profoundly boring experience.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Ymeegod on July 22, 2009, 02:36:08 PM
Nah, what I need is an extra long sensor bar. The sensitivity is a bit to picky for my taste, I have long arms so i should be able to set a much larger area instead I'm forced to point at the sensor. I rather move my entire arm like an idiot (like if I wanted to fire at the upper left of the screen I should just be able to point in that direction.
I tired all types of options, like some of those 3rd party sensors, but can't find a solution that suits me. The Conduit had some nice options but I still had alot more trouble getting headshots in MP than I should.
Haven't tried anything with MC+ yet.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Mop it up on July 22, 2009, 07:23:31 PM
Nah, what I need is an extra long sensor bar. The sensitivity is a bit to picky for my taste, I have long arms so i should be able to set a much larger area instead I'm forced to point at the sensor. I rather move my entire arm like an idiot (like if I wanted to fire at the upper left of the screen I should just be able to point in that direction.
I tired all types of options, like some of those 3rd party sensors, but can't find a solution that suits me. The Conduit had some nice options but I still had alot more trouble getting headshots in MP than I should.
Did you try adjusting the sensitivity in the Wii menu?
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Stratos on July 22, 2009, 09:21:29 PM
Nah, what I need is an extra long sensor bar. The sensitivity is a bit to picky for my taste, I have long arms so i should be able to set a much larger area instead I'm forced to point at the sensor. I rather move my entire arm like an idiot (like if I wanted to fire at the upper left of the screen I should just be able to point in that direction.
I tired all types of options, like some of those 3rd party sensors, but can't find a solution that suits me. The Conduit had some nice options but I still had alot more trouble getting headshots in MP than I should.
Did you try adjusting the sensitivity in the Wii menu?
Don't stand so close to the TV. Move farther back and it should be fine.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: EasyCure on July 23, 2009, 11:00:35 AM
. As far as Conduit in particular, do we really need any more shooters? The only reason I buy things like Killzone 2 is because they look so drop-dead gorgeous. I could imagine playing Conduit to be a profoundly boring experience.
That is by far the SADDEST thing i ever read on these forums... (not counting Jim's thread in the general chat section)
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on July 23, 2009, 11:06:08 AM
Clearly he wouldn't buy it if it controlled like garbage, so I don't think that graphics are all that enter into it. But a game like KillZone 2 is clearly not trying to be revolutionary, it's trying to be evolutionary. Why is the latter such a bad thing? If a game has good level design, great graphics and sound, and is fun to play, why does it have to be unique? I've been playing NCAA Football for years, ever since the day I got my PS2 in 2001. I've put in probably over 2000 hours total, and I'm still not tired of it. Is it the same game every year? Yes. I still love it.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: EasyCure on July 23, 2009, 12:06:38 PM
But "Only" implies the sole reason for purchasing the game. If he had said "one of the main/biggest reasons.." it'd be different. The sad truth is there are gamers out there who are blinded by pretty graphics and don't give two shits about play control, sound or any other part of game design. Somehow the looks are SO good to these gamers that nothing else matters, and thats ridiculous to me, but hey i guess I just don't know how to get joygasm from my eyes and am weird for needing a whole experience before i climax :P Really though, if the ONLY reason you're buying a game is because it looks amazing, you'd probably be the type to go out and buy a nice fancy Ferrari with no engine under the hood.
Oh and innovation had nothing to do with it, because i agree if the game is solid at what its supposed to do, it can still be a very enjoyable game. We're talking about graphics here.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on July 23, 2009, 12:12:27 PM
I think saying the "only reason he bought it" is more a figure of speech than anything else. No one (who is a frequent or studied consumer in gaming) buys a game that excels in one area and fails in every other. All of the Halos, Calls of Duty, Finals Fantasy, and Ratchets and Clank, they all have great graphics and also excel in other areas. Halo is great at online play, CoD is great at online play, Final Fantasy presents a great narrative, R&C has great gameplay.
Then you have your Wiis Fit, Supers Mario Galaxy, and Legends of Zelda, which excel in art direction (a different thing than visuals) or game play or are just different enough to warrant a try. It helps that the Nintendo brand is behind these experiments - it provides the confidence a customer needs to drop $80 on a game that is in a genre unto it's own.
And now I'm done playing fancy with incorrect plurals.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 23, 2009, 12:22:16 PM
I remember when shooters were great.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Peachylala on July 23, 2009, 12:54:01 PM
I remembered Metroid Prime 1/2/3 look better then the Condiut.
I also remembered that Super Mario Galaxy beats everything in the Highly Disappointing generation. Take that Brown Shading!
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on July 23, 2009, 01:12:05 PM
I still love a good solo adventure shooter like Half Life or Bioshock. Competitive FPS gaming hasn't held any of my interest since it was named Doom II. Also really don't like the military aesthetic that seems to be very prevalent in the genre.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on July 23, 2009, 01:12:51 PM
Quote
I also remembered that Super Mario Galaxy beats everything in the Highly Disappointing generation. Take that Brown Shading!
Oh man, you really showed it who's boss.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 23, 2009, 01:48:10 PM
Nah, what I need is an extra long sensor bar. The sensitivity is a bit to picky for my taste, I have long arms so i should be able to set a much larger area instead I'm forced to point at the sensor. I rather move my entire arm like an idiot (like if I wanted to fire at the upper left of the screen I should just be able to point in that direction.
I tired all types of options, like some of those 3rd party sensors, but can't find a solution that suits me. The Conduit had some nice options but I still had alot more trouble getting headshots in MP than I should.
Did you try adjusting the sensitivity in the Wii menu?
Don't stand so close to the TV. Move farther back and it should be fine.
I've been thinking about this, and that sounds to be the case. If one prefers to hold out their arm/Remote to aim, then it's necessary to sit back far enough so the sensor bar never escapes the viewing angle of the Remote. However, exceeding 10 feet from the sensor bar is too far, and will cause the twitchy cursor effect, creating innaccuracy (you're far enough that the Remote sees the sensor bar LEDs approach a "vanishing point," and doesn't see much variance in the distance between a pair of LEDs).
If you're always pointing at the sensor, - about 2-3ft minimum distance is required for comfy and complete IR functionality. - 10ft is the optimal distance for line-of-sight light-gun gaming (real light-gun gaming); works best if your gun's "swing angle" is minimal, like a submachine gun held close to your eye, rather than a pistol held forward and away from your center (your eye/body). - beyond 10ft, you get the twitchy effect.
I learned about the Talismoon Retractable Sensor Bar earlier today, http://www.talismoon.com/cgi-bin/multipage/engine.pl?function=viewid&id=RKS00085&cat=WII-CABLES%20AND%20ADAPTERS
and I'm expecting that separating the LEDs further than the standard bar's 8in will help mitigate the twitchy cursor, tho I haven't found a review that confirms how far the LED nodes will extend. Adjusting the node distance and your seating distance may help solve Ymeegod's dilemma as well.
One of the photos shows the nodes definitely have the potential (by separating the wires) to be spaced further than the length of the sensor bar. But the cord to the Wii is only 2ft long, and I need like 10ft, so I'll have to get an extension cord as well.
But "Only" implies the sole reason for purchasing the game. If he had said "one of the main/biggest reasons.." it'd be different. The sad truth is there are gamers out there who are blinded by pretty graphics and don't give two ****s about play control, sound or any other part of game design. Somehow the looks are SO good to these gamers that nothing else matters, and thats ridiculous to me, but hey i guess I just don't know how to get joygasm from my eyes and am weird for needing a whole experience before i climax :P Really though, if the ONLY reason you're buying a game is because it looks amazing, you'd probably be the type to go out and buy a nice fancy Ferrari with no engine under the hood.
Oh and innovation had nothing to do with it, because i agree if the game is solid at what its supposed to do, it can still be a very enjoyable game. We're talking about graphics here.
To be fair, I waited 4 months (thankfully since they didn't get around to patching the junk controls until May 28th) and what finally tipped the scales was a Eurogamer review praising the AI. However, if it was an ugly shooter with supposedly good AI set in a boring environment I wouldn't have been interested. So I guess you can say that graphics were the deciding factor, but not the only factor.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that even with solid level design and AI, I wouldn't have been interested in Killzone 2 if it weren't a PS3 flagship game. I like seeing nice pictures on my shiny 50" plasma.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Plugabugz on July 23, 2009, 02:10:08 PM
But "Only" implies the sole reason for purchasing the game. If he had said "one of the main/biggest reasons.." it'd be different. The sad truth is there are gamers out there who are blinded by pretty graphics and don't give two ****s about play control, sound or any other part of game design. Somehow the looks are SO good to these gamers that nothing else matters, and thats ridiculous to me, but hey i guess I just don't know how to get joygasm from my eyes and am weird for needing a whole experience before i climax :P Really though, if the ONLY reason you're buying a game is because it looks amazing, you'd probably be the type to go out and buy a nice fancy Ferrari with no engine under the hood.
Oh and innovation had nothing to do with it, because i agree if the game is solid at what its supposed to do, it can still be a very enjoyable game. We're talking about graphics here.
To be fair, I waited 4 months (thankfully since they didn't get around to patching the junk controls until May 28th) and what finally tipped the scales was a Eurogamer review praising the AI. However, if it was an ugly shooter with supposedly good AI set in a boring environment I wouldn't have been interested. So I guess you can say that graphics were the deciding factor, but not the only factor.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that even with solid level design and AI, I wouldn't have been interested in Killzone 2 if it weren't a PS3 flagship game. I like seeing nice pictures on my shiny 50" plasma.
So, dare i ask, do you watch any SDTV on your shiny plasma?
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Dirk Temporo on July 23, 2009, 02:37:42 PM
I remembered Metroid Prime 1/2/3 look better then the Condiut.
Hahaha. Oh wow.
Anyway, you want a great FPS? Get a PC, because you're not going to find them on consoles, with the exception of inferior ports.
What's so odd about that? They do look better than the Conduit. Perhaps not in the absolute technical sense, but the artists at Retro are clearly superior than those at High Voltage and good art direction will always trump absolute technical ability. Coincidentally, isn't that what the Wii is supposed to be all about but rarely is?
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 23, 2009, 03:16:25 PM
At least High Voltage is trying.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 23, 2009, 03:21:14 PM
Yeah, unlike Japan.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Peachylala on July 23, 2009, 03:32:03 PM
Japan has: Hideo, Suda51's iggnorances spelling doom for No More Heroes, a **** load of JRPGS, and 2D anime brawlers.
America has: All around Wii-hatred, game reviews with no honesty, Brown Shading, Highly Disappointing sell-outs, NoA VC's management.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Morari on July 23, 2009, 05:24:43 PM
I remembered Metroid Prime 1/2/3 look better then the Condiut.
Hahaha. Oh wow.
Anyway, you want a great FPS? Get a PC, because you're not going to find them on consoles, with the exception of inferior ports.
Gosh, I didn't even have to say it this this time around...
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 26, 2009, 05:02:33 AM
The Wii can do a lot more than people give it credit for. Keep in mind that good games existed before the release of the 360, there are TONS of awesome games on the last gen consoles and many of them look great as well. The Wii outperforms anything last gen offers. It seems like developers are using "the Wii is weaker" as an excuse to not even try. Yes, Wii games should be compared to last gen games because of that but so should everything else. Next gen isn't some magical cutoff where previous archievements stop mattering and we can go back to soiling ourselves after learning how to use the crapper last gen.
What's absolutely inexcusable is reviewers using The Conduit to claim the Wii is unsuitable for FPSes. This is bullet to the forehead material. Last gen was capable of FPSes. The Wii can at very least do EVERYTHING last gen did. It can do even more! If you have to you can use the classic controller and then you even have the button count (minus L3/R3 which are just a pain in the ass anyway) but you shouldn't. Pointer aim is clearly superior to dual analogs. If your aim is jittery that's because your hand is, it means your real life aim is jittery. Shooting a gun may just be point and click but it still requires holding still if you want to hit stuff at combat range. Granted, that's a bit easier with a rifle resting against your shoulder but you don't get magic crosshairs with that. There's a reason soldiers don't jump into a room and deliver three headshots in a second!
I also remembered that Super Mario Galaxy beats everything in the Highly Disappointing generation. Take that Brown Shading!
Eh, Banjo-Kazooie Nuts & Bolts is up there as well, kinda similar in style too. A ton of fun too. Some people were disappointed because they expected something like the N64 Banjo-Kazooie and it doesn't seem to be anything like that but it's a great game by its own merits.
I like seeing nice pictures on my shiny 50" plasma.
Wait, you game on a plasma? Doesn't that cause burn-in of HUD elements? AFAIK plasmas are unsuitable for gaming because of that.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Ymeegod on July 26, 2009, 02:28:10 PM
" it means your real life aim is jittery. " Actually in real life I'm rated as expert class :0. Or was, I'm going to need glasses now but that's mostly do to age my hand is quite stable.
I'm around 6 feet from the sensor (2 feet is way to close btw: min distance is a meter--3 feet). I tried 10 feet as well but found it really didn't help much so I went back to the couch. The zapper kinda works but I can't find an atachment that has great button placements with diretion pad.
Also, the WII remote is LIGHT--maybe if I could add extra weight to it might help me because alot of it bounces when I'm hammering on the buttons.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 26, 2009, 03:25:40 PM
Also, the WII remote is LIGHT--maybe if I could add extra weight to it might help me because alot of it bounces when I'm hammering on the buttons.
Yeah, the problem is that The Conduit uses way too many buttons to use any gun shells for the Wiimote. Water Warfare can be played with a gun shell though I never noticed the button reaction as much in WW as in TC.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 27, 2009, 01:07:57 AM
2 feet works fine at my PC monitor, cuz my aiming hand is typically resting, not held out.
10ft with a decent gun shell achieves line-of-sight accuracy with Ghost Squad/HotD calibration, but you have to be standing/sitting in the same spot and height the whole time...
* For Conduit, I don't think the "calibration option" should be used at all, unless the interface is being tweaked to turn it into a light-of-sight light-gun game. I believe it affects the behavior decided by all other sensitivity options; so it should be left alone to default.
IR pointing is most accurate (ie. the cursor placement is most predictable to the user) when the Remote is stationary and moved via tilting, not being waved and moved through space.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: MegaByte on July 27, 2009, 01:12:52 AM
Also, the WII remote is LIGHT--maybe if I could add extra weight to it might help me because alot of it bounces when I'm hammering on the buttons.
I actually assigned all of the attack commands to the Nunchuk to combat this. Of course, if you had real weapons, you'd have to compensate for recoil. It would be interesting if a future version of the Remote included moving weights to simulate this (and other things like steering and sword hit force-feedback).
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 27, 2009, 07:20:27 AM
It would be interesting if a future version of the Remote included moving weights to simulate this.
It already does, how do you think Rumble works? :P
Realistically it's not physically possible to give directed force feedback due to actio = reactio. Force feedback joysticks did it by enacting the force against the base, the Wiimote has no base to apply the force to. In order to get directed force on an unattached object you'd need to add thrusters or something. You can delay the onset of the counterforce by applying it to a moving object and only having it reapplied to the controller when the object reaches its goal but you'd still feel both the force and counterforce, for recoil that would mean your controller would first recoil backwards and shortly afterwards recoil forward.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Stratos on July 27, 2009, 07:24:04 AM
Speaking of force feedback, has anyone else noticed it being used less or not at all in a number of Wii games? Am I just missing it or are devs overlooking it? I don't recall any in Conduit.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Peachylala on July 27, 2009, 02:58:10 PM
Speaking of force feedback, has anyone else noticed it being used less or not at all in a number of Wii games? Am I just missing it or are devs overlooking it? I don't recall any in Conduit.
Very stupid question: What is force feedback? Owning a Wii for two years, and I'm still iggnorant of alot of terms. Bah. :(
Quote from: KDR
Eh, Banjo-Kazooie Nuts & Bolts is up there as well, kinda similar in style too. A ton of fun too. Some people were disappointed because they expected something like the N64 Banjo-Kazooie and it doesn't seem to be anything like that but it's a great game by its own merits.
My SMG post was sarcasm and nothing else. B&K looks amazing, but their designs... WHAT. THE. FRACK.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: BeautifulShy on July 27, 2009, 03:10:57 PM
Force feedback is a fancy way of saying rumble. The N64 was the first system with rumble when it launched Star Fox 64.
Stratos maybe you turned off the rumble in the Home Menu.I know I do that when on the Internet Channel.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 27, 2009, 03:17:58 PM
Force feedback is when the controller device actually applies forces to the player to provide MEANINGFUL information. Not just any rumble thump.
My Logitech Wheel for GameCube will resist turning to simulate fighting friction between the road and the tires in Burnout 2. That's an example of force feedback.
Light guns that REALLY rumble to simulate aim-debilitating recoil is another. Not piss-weak console rumble.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Rize on July 27, 2009, 04:52:14 PM
So, dare i ask, do you watch any SDTV on your shiny plasma?
Almost never. The last thing was Punch Out!! Which looked fine since it was focused on giant cartoonish characters rather than gaming environments with minute detail. Some DVDs still look good on it as well, although visual extravaganza's are noticeably blurry.
Wait, you game on a plasma? Doesn't that cause burn-in of HUD elements? AFAIK plasmas are unsuitable for gaming because of that.
It's not ideal, but it can be done. The trick is to just not play the same game forever. If you switch it up, each game's HUD is in a different spot from previous games and things end up evening out. Most of the time after beating a game there are no problems except where the game has really bright HUD elements. That said, I try to avoid games with large garish HUDs unless the game is exceptional. Then I'll go ahead and play it but run a break-in program at night which wears all the other pixels in. Pixel wear gets slower and slower as the pixels gets older, so the less worn pixels always catch up with the worn pixels in time. Eventually it will get both harder to damage the screen and harder to fix it. I intend to eventually retire this screen to a TV and movies only screen and get an LCD for gaming. I'm just waiting for LCD tech to get a bit better (or for the best LCD tech to get a bit cheaper).
I also minimize the image retention whenever possible by eliminating HUD elements or cranking up the transparency if the game lets me. I love a game like Dead Space that allows me to not worry about the HUD at all because there is none. It kinda sucks to have your choice of games and attitude towards them determined partially by the HUD design, but man they look beautiful on a plasma :)
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 27, 2009, 05:38:20 PM
Dunno, my LCD is also a PC monitor and I don't have to worry about anything, does 1080p on a 23" screen and was pretty cheap.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 27, 2009, 09:40:08 PM
Yeah that Start menu task bar really makes the bottom of my monitor rot huh.
uh
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 28, 2009, 02:31:56 AM
You use a plasma monitor?
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Rize on July 28, 2009, 10:37:32 AM
I have a 24 inch 1920x1200 monitor. I tried to use it for gaming for a while, but sitting in a chair playing console game is bleh (plus the extra vertical resolution created an annoying vertical stretch).
I saw a cheap LCD once that suffered some kind of image retention. However, it eventually went away (it was an LCD where I work). It had DOS style words from one of the boot screens issued by the BIOS that got stuck one day and sat there for a really long time. Using windows regularly for a while made it go away.
But generally LCD's are considered invincible against burn in.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 28, 2009, 11:59:17 AM
My 23 inch is exactly 1920x1080 physical, I made sure of that before picking it. I prefer chairs to couches overall and our gaming room has only chairs.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Rize on July 29, 2009, 02:25:41 PM
My problem was I refused to go down in vertical resolution for my normal PC usage (particularly music editing programs). So 1080p was out of the question for me.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 31, 2009, 01:49:38 PM
Well, the gaming monitor is only for games here, my PC monitor is 1280x960 and CRT.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Dirk Temporo on July 31, 2009, 03:40:56 PM
Wait... So you use the LCD for gaming and the CRT for everything else?
That doesn't make a lick of sense.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Ymeegod on July 31, 2009, 03:52:11 PM
46 inch Toshiba RV530U for my gaming needs. Paid alot more than I should have (one year later and it's 1/2 of what I paid though I did get the extended warranty for 10 years).
I use the HDMI input for my POS PC. My poor ole PC needed a upgrade 8 years ago :(.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 31, 2009, 04:01:16 PM
Don't knock on your PC.
It's proven its value and it has market-leading longevity.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: KDR_11k on August 01, 2009, 01:50:08 AM
Wait... So you use the LCD for gaming and the CRT for everything else?
That doesn't make a lick of sense.
My PC plays games too but the monitor doesn't even have a SCART input, never mind component or HDMI. Plus the PC sees use for graphics work so an LCD isn't really an option.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 03, 2009, 12:26:27 PM
Tried it out this weekend, and it definitely works. Spreading the LED nodes further away from each other (making a "longer" sensor bar) definitely improves/fixes the stability of IR pointing at longer distances. However, standing more than 20ft would probably begin to require stronger LED sources, but standing that far would be unrealistic for most player's room layouts I suppose.
Title: Re: Wii can do it too?
Post by: Stratos on August 03, 2009, 05:59:19 PM
Tried it out this weekend, and it definitely works. Spreading the LED nodes further away from each other (making a "longer" sensor bar) definitely improves/fixes the stability of IR pointing at longer distances. However, standing more than 20ft would probably begin to require stronger LED sources, but standing that far would be unrealistic for most player's room layouts I suppose.
But it would be handy to know for when you try to use a projector screen setup in a gym.
