Post by: Nick DiMola on June 23, 2009, 05:58:42 AM
Legendary guitarist Jimmy Page and White Stripes guitarist Jack White both recently had some harsh words for Guitar Hero, and music games in general.
During a recent press conference regarding the documentary It Might Get Loud, Jimmy Page made the following remark:
"You think of the drum part that John Bonham did on Led Zeppelin's first track on the first album, Good Times Bad Times, how many drummers in the world can play that part, let alone on Christmas morning?"
Jack White had the following to say:
"It's depressing to have a label come and tell you that [Guitar Hero] is how kids are learning about music and experiencing music ... Which format people should get their music in ... if you have to be in a video game to get in front of them, that's a little sad."
I find both remarks a bit upsetting because both artists seem to miss the point of music games.
In response to Jimmy Page: People know they can't play drums like John Bonham, thus they try and feel like that star by mastering a simpler version of that within a game. It gives people a sense of accomplishment and draws them that much closer to the music they know and love.
In response to Jack White: He demeans the experience by saying it's sad that kids get into new music via video games, but without that game, the kids may have never experienced it otherwise. A number of bands and songs featured in these games are from a different era of music, and much of that is lost on people in their parent's generation. You can't simply turn on the radio and expect to hear many of the songs featured in these games.
While I don't have much more to say about this, I figured I would bring this up as a point of discussion. What are your feelings?
Post by: MegaByte on June 23, 2009, 01:28:02 PM
Post by: vudu on June 23, 2009, 01:41:58 PM
He asked them how they knew it. Their answer: Guitar Hero.
Um, but Led Zeppelin doesn't have any songs in Guitar Hero or Rock Band.
Post by: ShyGuy on June 23, 2009, 02:29:24 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on June 23, 2009, 02:31:49 PM
At first there were people that acted like they were musicians now because they played Guitar Hero or Rock Band. I know someone who bought a guitar stand for their GH guitar. There were people that talked about their "band" and they meant their videogame band. Some people at work started taking up guitar because of the game, but lacked the patience to really learn it and expected like they would just be instantly good. I saw music stores acting like Rock Band could help you learn the basic skills to playing an instrument which is largely bullshit (I could see how it would apply to drums though). When GH/RB mania was going down there were a lot of poser musicians that thought they were hot **** because they were good at a videogame. That's pretty annoying when you actually can play an instrument are in an actual band and have written your own songs. But things have since died down and it doesn't bother me anymore. It was just a fad for a little while.
It is frustrating that kids are learning about these songs through a videogame. That's still better than not knowing the materal at all but it's still not that great. They had to kind of be "tricked" into discovering the song. There is such emphasis on what's modern and young people aren't encouraged to really do some research and familiarize themselves with music as a whole. From a videogame perspective isn't it annoying to meet teens that only seem to know games from the last two years and spout off all this ignorant BS? When I was 13 I made a conscious effort to get to know music from before I was born. I found it very rewarding. I still do that. I find out about a band and then I look into their influences.
Young people should do that. They don't. They're not encouraged to because you just want to sell them the current thing (and in a lot of cases the current thing is of such low quality it relies on the customer to be ignorant of better). So if a videogame is what introduces them to the song, well, that's kind of lame. Plus I think most musicians want their music to be associated as songs that you listen to, not "levels" in a videogame or for that matter background music for a movie or tv show or ad. You want music to be special. These days with iPods and MP3s and bullshit American Idol reality show crap it seems like music has become very disposable. Videogames add to that. You work hard on an album and few people actually sit down and listen to it from start to finish as you intended. That's disappointing.
When you're really passionate about something it can frustrating to encounter so many people that don't share that passion.
Post by: NWR_Neal on June 23, 2009, 02:43:01 PM
But this always annoys me. I've always been someone who's loved music, but I've never been good at actually playing it. I've been around bands, I've listened to lots of music, I go to concerts. I really enjoy it, but I don't have any musical talent.
Guitar Hero/Rock Band let me experience music in a different way and have really opened my eyes to the real talent of some bands and just the fact that other bands existed. GH/RB has contributed to me listening to a lot of bands I knew about but never listened to a lot. It's also helped me to be able to pick out different instruments in songs easily.
Those musicians who talk down about GH/RB can shove it. Just because you play music doesn't mean you can chastise people for experiencing it in a way you don't approve of. Jack White, just go do more Elvis impersonations in movies and Jimmy Page, I don't think we want more kids like John Bonham. He's dead.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on June 23, 2009, 02:50:04 PM
Post by: broodwars on June 23, 2009, 03:05:47 PM
If the Beattles Rock Band game does well, we might see a rise in music games based on old music, so that might help your cause a bit on musical history appreciation, Ian.
Post by: D_Average on June 23, 2009, 03:10:28 PM
As a guitarist and drummer myself, I don't own a single GH or Rock Band game, just Elite Beat Agents and Singstar. When you can already play the real thing yourself, it just doesn't do the trick (unless there's a lot of beer and/or women in the room). If I'm bored practicing an instrument, I'll simply learn a new cover song, which is far more thrilling to me personally.
But, as a musician, I don't get uptight about these games. I think they're great for the music industry. Not because it leads kids to buy real guitars, but because it leads kids to buy music again. And without that, there is no music industry. Its all about simulating the thrill of being a rockstar, just as Mirrors Edge is about simulating parkour. I played the $$$ out of Mirrors Edge, but I have yet to attempt a wall/run/jump/spin/attack in reality. Not sure it translates as well as spending hours on a flight simulator only to someday land a 747 full of snakes.
That said, as someone who listens to electronic music and does not have the time to master the turntables, I'm pretty excited to pick up DJ Hero once the price drops.
Post by: BranDonk Kong on June 23, 2009, 03:12:20 PM
Post by: Dirk Temporo on June 23, 2009, 03:24:44 PM
People ask me why I don't like rhythm games. My first answer is always because I don't care to sink enough time into them to become good at them, and my second is always that they're filled with music that I just don't care about because I've heard it all a million times on the radio, and guess how often I listen to the radio anymore!
Post by: D_Average on June 23, 2009, 03:24:48 PM
Pretty stupid/ignorant comments from these two. It's a game, it's fun to play, and you might learn about a band that you've never heard of before. Just *how* are kids supposed to learn about music, then? I'll probably catch a lot of flack for this - but it has nothing to do with their comments, I've always felt that these two are very overrated - Page moreso than White. Also, you'll never learn to play guitar from these games, but you could get a grasp on basic drumming - I certainly have.
Page is the best guitarist/songwriter in history. He can do it all. Heavy riffs, masterful solos, mind bending acoustic melodies, there is no one else like him. I can see why some people do not like the band as Plant's voice is love it or hate it, but there is no one like Page. Unlike many other great guitarists, his songs sounded vastly different from each other. 6 solid albums of classics before the band took its inevitable dive.
(Full disclosure, listening to Led Zeppelin as a teen is what drove me to learn the guitar)
Post by: D_Average on June 23, 2009, 03:27:22 PM
When you get right down to it, Led Zeppelin was another mass media puppet
I'm not sure you even know what that is. There's a big difference between a media puppet, and those that are worshiped by the media. Falling into the latter does not necessarily make you the former.
Post by: Nick DiMola on June 23, 2009, 03:42:15 PM
Also, I agree about Page. One of the best to ever play the instrument... and Led Zeppelin is also fucking amazing.
Post by: rbtr on June 23, 2009, 03:48:24 PM
I think White is pretty on target. It is kind of sad that kids have to learn about music through plastic instruments and timed button prompts. I learned about music in middle school, and high school by playing the trumpet. There are venues for kids to learn music, we teach it in the school system, a great way to get more kids to learn about music would be to fund that better. You learn a lot from actually playing a real instrument (patience, discipline, etc.) and you learn none of that from the plastic ones. There's a lot to music, and while music games can help you appreciate it a bit better, you can appreciate it so much more if you take the time to learn an instrument. And to the people who complain "I have no musical talent". Music isn't some innate ability, you've got to learn it, it's a different language, and you have to use an external "voice box" but you can learn it, it just takes a lot of time. Listen to the early White Stripes albums, and then listen to the later ones. You can hear Jack improve, Jack White doesn't just posses this ability, he is learning and crafting it. Page didn't start out quite as awesome as he became, go listen to the Yardbirds.
Guitar Hero doesn't come anywhere close to a true musical experience. When I play guitar with a group of people and we all click into a groove, and everybody is rocking full throttle, its a semi religious experience. I get a high from it. When I play guitar hero I'm just going through the motions. There are better ways to bring music to kids, hell, there are better ways to bring music to everybody.
That block of text said, if this watered down version of ambrosia is the best people can get, then I guess thats something....
Post by: D_Average on June 23, 2009, 03:53:29 PM
I just listened to "Good Times, Bad Times" and that drum part is pretty insane. Page's comment makes a little less sense.
Haha, I've heard critics bring this up too. It should be in the Guiness book of world records. Specifically, what Page is referring to is the way Bonham can make a single bass pedal sound like a double. You can hear it really well around 22 seconds in, the way he rolls that bass drum in as a fill. Just. F$$ing. Amazing.
You can practice all you want, but most human are physically incapable of such a feat. But then again, now we have well constructed triple bass pedals.
Post by: rbtr on June 23, 2009, 03:57:08 PM
Page's comment didn't seem like a complaint on the game, just more of a complaint on the general skill level of musicians today.
SORRY JIMMY IM TRYING MY BEST OKAY
Post by: broodwars on June 23, 2009, 04:05:41 PM
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on June 23, 2009, 04:44:40 PM
I also find new appreciation for music I experience through games. There are songs I can't stand on the radio that I enjoy playing in Guitar Hero, and there are songs I've always liked that I like even more now because playing Guitar Hero made me pay attention to nuances in the music that I never noticed before. Of course, there are also songs and bands I'd never even heard of before playing Guitar Hero that I have some interest in now (and I'm actually talking about newer stuff).
That last point reminds me of something else. I have a lot of trouble just listening to music and doing nothing else. I try to just sit and listen and enjoy the music, but it is inevitable that my mind will wander. It's a physical certainty, and it drives me crazy. I've found the best cure for that problem to be Audiosurf. It focuses my entire mind on the music. I've used it to rediscover my own music collection as well as expand my interests. That may not be in the same category as Guitar Hero, but it's enough for me to believe that gaming as an avenue of learning about music isn't "sad" just because some purists can't let go of their glory days.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 23, 2009, 05:12:18 PM
Quote
When you get right down to it, Led Zeppelin was another mass media puppet, as is everyone in Guitar Hero and Rock Band.
If Led Zeppelin was a mass media puppet than who the hell isn't one? They produced all of their own albums and made whatever the **** music striked their fancy and famously never released any singles in their home country. Jimmy Page is freakishly lucky because all the creative control he had. I love Led Zeppelin and they're a huge influence on me. I especially love how their songs are so unique. There aren't any really blatant rewrites or filler tracks. They had some songs I don't personally care for but they're like self-indulgent experiments as opposed to obvious filler designed to pad an album. I love bands like The Ramones and AC/DC but, ****, those guys are so formulaic and they're pretty much just writing the same song a hundred times. But Zeppelin didn't even fall into the conventions of their genre. They were supposedly a heavy metal band but you got big rockers and slow blues numbers and acoustic folk tunes and epic progressive rock and some funky dance songs. While comtemporaries like Black Sabbath and Deep Purple were always trying to rock out and have this real tough sound, Zeppelin didn't cater to that. If they wanted to do songs like Tangerine, Going to California, Fool in the Rain or All My Love they just did them even though those songs didn't fit the heavy metal mold at all. It's like "let's just make good songs" and that's it. Every band should have that confidence - just make good songs and don't pigeonhole yourself as a genre.
Quote
And to the people who complain "I have no musical talent". Music isn't some innate ability, you've got to learn it, it's a different language, and you have to use an external "voice box" but you can learn it, it just takes a lot of time.
I tend to disagree but I don't want to discourage people from trying. I think, as with most or possibly all talents, that musical talent is something that you have some natural ability for but you need to learn the skills to make use of it. I've observed too many people that just never seem to get it to conclude that anyone can do it. But you should try. You have to be patient and put in the effort. And it really helps if you have a good music teacher that makes it fun. There are too many teachers that just make it a big chore. To me a big part of music is in the creativity of it: writing your own material or at the very least interpretting someone else's material in your own way. I've never been very impressed by someone who is technically proficient but has no style of their own and doesn't write anything. Creativity isn't something that can be taught. Everyone learns in English class the basic fundamentals of writing. We could all technically write a book but how many of us could write something actually good? That's a part of the process you can't really learn. Same with music.
But you don't know until you try. Just looking up how to play a few chords and an easy three or four chord song will give you an idea.
Post by: rbtr on June 23, 2009, 05:24:59 PM
What's your hobby (outside of gaming) and how would you feel to see it stripped down to its most basic component(IN the case of guitar hero and the like, rhythm)? Would it really be the same when other people experience the most basic component only? It's the difference between fresh squeezed orange juice and orange soda.
Post by: Stratos on June 23, 2009, 05:56:21 PM
Rogue squadron isn't as good as flying a real X-wing, and which would you honestly rather do? I'd rather fly a real X-wing, but that's an impossibility. Wouldn't you rather play a real guitar? You could be doing that within a few days. I'm sure stamp collecting is rewarding in it's own right, and raising tarantuals could be a good deal of fun.
What's your hobby (outside of gaming) and how would you feel to see it stripped down to its most basic component(IN the case of guitar hero and the like, rhythm)? Would it really be the same when other people experience the most basic component only? It's the difference between fresh squeezed orange juice and orange soda.
If the 'watered down version' got more people interested in the legit thing then I would be all for the lesser version. Isn't that basically what the Wii has done for gaming?
Also, look at how the Guitar Hero/Rock Band games have revitalized the music industry. It was tanking. But now there is the 'Guitar Hero effect' where any artist in these games experiences a spike in sales when their songs appear. It is a gateway to music. I had never heard half of these bands or nover appreciated them the way they deserved. It expanded my taste in music. It also encourages me to learn some of these songs on my real guitar. I love to do both. I enjoy the game because it is fun, and I can play it with ither people. Bu tI also enjoy playing music in real life.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on June 23, 2009, 05:58:07 PM
Rogue squadron isn't as good as flying a real X-wing, and which would you honestly rather do? I'd rather fly a real X-wing, but that's an impossibility. Wouldn't you rather play a real guitar? You could be doing that within a few days. I'm sure stamp collecting is rewarding in it's own right, and raising tarantuals could be a good deal of fun.
You missed the point. It's not about rather, it's about gonna. As in not gonna.
I had several weeks of guitar lessons as part of the curriculum in middle school, so there's no use in lying to me about it. In a few days, I could be playing a basic chord progression to accompany "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star." That's not fun. Besides, I played cornet through middle school, high school, and part of college. I had fun playing it during school, and I loathed practicing. From that experience, I know for a fact that I could never enjoy practice with any instrument, not even a holophoner.
Quote
What's your hobby (outside of gaming) and how would you feel to see it stripped down to its most basic component(IN the case of guitar hero and the like, rhythm)? Would it really be the same when other people experience the most basic component only? It's the difference between fresh squeezed orange juice and orange soda.
Why should anyone care? Nobody playing Guitar Hero is experiencing your hobby at all, "most basic component" or otherwise. They're playing a video game. It's the difference between fresh squeezed orange juice and fresh squeezed apple juice.
Post by: rbtr on June 23, 2009, 06:11:46 PM
In the end it doesn't matter, to each his own. I'm a firm believer that everyone should play an instrument. And I'm sure some are firm believers that everyone should collect stamps.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 23, 2009, 06:40:26 PM
Quote
I had several weeks of guitar lessons as part of the curriculum in middle school, so there's no use in lying to me about it. In a few days, I could be playing a basic chord progression to accompany "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star." That's not fun.
I guess you didn't read the part of my post where I say it's important to have a teacher that makes music fun. My first song was Frere Jacques. After a few years of getting nowhere playing little baby music I switched guitar teachers. First song I learned from him? Knockin' on Heaven's Door. That when it all really started for me. A good teacher teaching you music you actually want to play makes all the difference.
I formed my band in high school with a friend of mine. Him and I are the guitar players but at that time he only played piano. He assumed at the time that I would be the guitarist and he would play keyboards and I would write all the songs. He was surprised though when he found out that at the time I had very little knowledge of music theory and has written my first songs by just fucking around with the chords I knew. He had taken piano at the Royal Conservatory of Music and knew music theory inside and out but had never played anything but classical music and never written anything because he never had been encouraged to. He thought music was just playing on the piano the sheet music put in front of his face. I had had a considerably less conservative musical education and I encouraged him to write his own stuff and he shortly afterwards taught himself guitar using my chord sheets as reference.
If I never met him or I gave up guitar during the initial years with my shitty guitar teacher he would just be some shmuck who can play Mozart on the piano. That's all his training ever introduced him to. Instead music is his life. I probably would have forgotten how to play guitar if I hadn't been lucky enough to have the guitar teacher I did.
I like Guitar Hero though and don't really damn anyone for playing it. Just don't act like you're some musician because of it. Thankfully that's died down.
The irony is the money spent on plastic instruments could be spent on a low cost beginner real instrument. Unlike piloting an X-Wing the cost of entry is comparible.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on June 23, 2009, 06:53:58 PM
I guess you didn't read the part of my post where I say it's important to have a teacher that makes music fun. My first song was Frere Jacques. After a few years of getting nowhere playing little baby music I switched guitar teachers. First song I learned from him? Knockin' on Heaven's Door. That when it all really started for me. A good teacher teaching you music you actually want to play makes all the difference.
I wasn't replying to you, but you also said stuff about talent, and you just now said you spent years on the baby music before you switched. You're not helping your own case.
Post by: EasyCure on June 23, 2009, 07:33:15 PM
Rogue squadron isn't as good as flying a real X-wing, and which would you honestly rather do? I'd rather fly a real X-wing, but that's an impossibility. Wouldn't you rather play a real guitar?
Some people like instant gratification and, I'm not saying UPB is one of these people by the way, playing a real guitar just won't cut it. I love how many of us here are musicians (in one way or another) because when something like this comes up, we all have our different views on the subject.
By the way, i use "we" because, for the record and the sake of this thread, yes I play guitar (and now drums!). So in case you thought my view on the subject didn't matter, well now you know!
Anyway, I've come to realize music is very subjective and very personal, so there is no right and wrong here. I wasn't always this way, unfortunately. I used to be very biased and stuck to only certain genres of music but thankfully i grew out of that and began to appreciate all music. When I see artists make comments like these two have, i simply ignore it. Plain and simple. It just doesn't affect me much because I have my own view.
Like Ian, I had a problem with the new fad that came about with these rythm games and kids thinking they were suddenly real guitarist (or competent enough to become real guitarist) simply because they could beat certain tracks on expert. In time I let it stop bothering me because, well lifes too short and I know one day these little "posers" would either outgrow the fad on their own or be embarrassed by a real musican hehe.
My views changed when I noticed younger family members were recognizing music I'd play as songs from these games and it just felt good to be able to connect with them on something i'm passionate about. I guess you can say I'm more in the "whatever opens someones mind to 'new' music (new for them) is a good thing" camp. Sure, like everything else you'll have people who'll only skim the surface and won't go deeper; ya know, the kind to download that one song from itunes and its his/her flavor of the week.. but hey, you just might get some people who'll be turned on to an artist or genre found in these games and dig a lil deeper. The kid who'll go from liking Rolling Stone's "Paint It Black" to owning their discography, to picking up guitar/bass/drums, to starting his own band and who knows what'll happen from there.
With so many schools cutting funding from music programs, and how much worse commercial pop music is getting today, do we really want the MTV's and mainstream radio being the only venue for people to go for music? Scary thought..
Post by: MegaByte on June 23, 2009, 07:58:16 PM
Um, but Led Zeppelin doesn't have any songs in Guitar Hero or Rock Band.You're right. Well it was another band from the 70s then.
Post by: Stratos on June 23, 2009, 08:01:53 PM
Um, but Led Zeppelin doesn't have any songs in Guitar Hero or Rock Band.You're right. Well it was another band from the 70s then.
But anyone who has become a fan of the game will hear how Led Zeppelin is the most requested band and also most likely the least likeley to cave regerding letting their music on the games. People pick it up through osmosis and then are curious to see what the fuss is about. Then they understand how awesome the band is and add to the clamor of fans wanting them in the game.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on June 23, 2009, 08:21:38 PM
Some people like instant gratification and, I'm not saying UPB is one of these people by the way, playing a real guitar just won't cut it.
I really, truly don't see the two as comparable. Guitar Hero isn't a game about playing the guitar. It's a game about rock music. So it isn't a matter of instant gratification vs. hard work and perseverance. I don't choose Guitar Hero over learning to play the guitar for real. I choose to play Guitar Hero because it's fun and I choose not to learn to play the guitar because it's not fun. That's two separate choices. I even made the latter choice a long time before Guitar Hero existed, though I admit the game did make me briefly reconsider.
Quote
When I see artists make comments like these two have, i simply ignore it. Plain and simple. It just doesn't affect me much because I have my own view.
I have to add my agreement here. I respect Jimmy Page a lot for his musical genius, but I wouldn't ask him for, say, stock tips. While his fame and talent make his opinion of music games more newsworthy than most, it isn't necessarily any more valid or informed than this guy's (http://xkcd.com/359/).
Quote
Like Ian, I had a problem with the new fad that came about with these rythm games and kids thinking they were suddenly real guitarist (or competent enough to become real guitarist) simply because they could beat certain tracks on expert.
I really never saw this happening (outside of that South Park episode). I'm sure it must have been annoying, but I can't believe anyone would seriously think playing Guitar Hero had anything to do with real musical skill. I have to wonder if some of them were just joking around. I know I typically ask my friend if he wants to play by talking about "getting the band back together," for example. I've also considered getting a stand for my guitar controllers simply to have somewhere to put them where they wouldn't get sat on, though I couldn't justify spending the money on one in the end.
But, hey, if they really were serious, they're probably the same people I always want to slap some sense into when I meet them just in general.
Post by: D_Average on June 23, 2009, 08:38:39 PM
Now, I'm slowly buying those N64 games back via the VC, funny how it goes....
Post by: blackfootsteps on June 23, 2009, 08:57:20 PM
The Today intro is so much easier on an electric compared to an acoustic without a cutaway!
Post by: Morari on June 23, 2009, 09:12:30 PM
Quote
You can't simply turn on the radio and expect to hear many of the songs featured in these games.
Yes, yes you can. Rarely do these games contain anything even close to the obscure. If the music wasn't popular to some degree or another, it wouldn't sell the game. You'd still be playing lame J-Pop music games if that were the case.
Post by: D_Average on June 23, 2009, 09:14:14 PM
The Today intro is so much easier on an electric compared to an acoustic without a cutaway!
No doubt. And not as rewarding, unless you have it hooked up to a reverb pedal. But the song itself does lend itself decently to an acoustic cover.
Post by: Nick DiMola on June 23, 2009, 09:25:50 PM
QuoteYou can't simply turn on the radio and expect to hear many of the songs featured in these games.
Yes, yes you can. Rarely do these games contain anything even close to the obscure. If the music wasn't popular to some degree or another, it wouldn't sell the game. You'd still be playing lame J-Pop music games if that were the case.
Let's put it this way. Many of these songs are rarely heard on the radio because they are so old. The crowd who is typically playing these games are more than likely not familiar with a number of the artists/songs featured across all the titles.
Post by: broodwars on June 23, 2009, 09:31:37 PM
QuoteYou can't simply turn on the radio and expect to hear many of the songs featured in these games.
Yes, yes you can. Rarely do these games contain anything even close to the obscure. If the music wasn't popular to some degree or another, it wouldn't sell the game. You'd still be playing lame J-Pop music games if that were the case.
Let's put it this way. Many of these songs are rarely heard on the radio because they are so old. The crowd who is typically playing these games are more than likely not familiar with a number of the artists/songs featured across all the titles.
That's why I haven't gotten into the games: none of them have music from bands I care about. Whenever Nintendo gets into the act with some music games featuring Nintendo music exclusively is probably when I'll get into them.
*glares at anyone who dares to mention the WM word*
Post by: Armak88 on June 24, 2009, 04:07:24 AM
First, I'm surprised at the uproar over these two comments. I mean, two talented musicians basically saying that GH is just a game.... is this something to be surprised or upset about? Sure it's good that these games are creating awareness of a wider array of music, but isn't it sad that a video game that doesn't actually teach you very much about music at all is the most effective tool we seem to have? That just seems to be the tone of these guy's comments. And Brandogg, I don't think that Jimmy Page can be over rated. I know that everybody has already gushed all over him, but really, the man is undeniably incredible.
Second, does anybody remember Tony Hawk Proskater 2? Or how about the skateboarding fad as a whole? Music is constantly being tied to social events, so why not gaming? I probably wouldn't be a fan of Lagwagon without the appearance of May 16th in Tony hawk.
In conclusion, I think that there are much greater tragedies in the modern world of music to be concerned about... like the death of the album, the lack of talent, the over-production or lady gaga. But seeing as this is a videogame board, here we are.
Post by: Deguello on June 24, 2009, 04:23:50 AM
But I wonder, do these guys have any problem with their music being in movie soundtracks? Would that taint the musical ideals they hold so dear? Would a kid playing Immigrant Song in Guitar Hero or Rock Band be worse than hearing it in Shrek 3? Aren't they getting money either way? Aren't they making everybody happy (well maybe not the kids. Shrek sucks.)? From where does this snooty snobbery come?
And also, extra lulz for insinuating all Guitar Hero/Rock Band players are the tiniest of tiny babies. Guess they aren't "hardcore" enough, eh? Kinda puts some things in perspective, doesn't it?
Post by: vudu on June 24, 2009, 02:24:33 PM
What's your hobby (outside of gaming) and how would you feel to see it stripped down to its most basic component(IN the case of guitar hero and the like, rhythm)? Would it really be the same when other people experience the most basic component only? It's the difference between fresh squeezed orange juice and orange soda.
I used to play Soccer. You don't hear me complaining about FIFA or ProEvo.
I don't often see football players complain that playing a season of Madden isn't a suitable replacement for the real thing (no ****!).
Race car drivers don't bitch that Mario Kart and NFS are "cheapening" their profession.
Ninja Assassins don't spend their time decrying Tenchu.
Post by: King of Twitch on June 24, 2009, 03:04:29 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on June 24, 2009, 05:06:18 PM
Quote
you just now said you spent years on the baby music before you switched. You're not helping your own case.
The years playing baby music was largely unnecessary. I was so disinterested that when I started with the new teacher I was more or less starting from scratch. I could have just skipped the baby music years in general.
Quote
But I wonder, do these guys have any problem with their music being in movie soundtracks? Would that taint the musical ideals they hold so dear? Would a kid playing Immigrant Song in Guitar Hero or Rock Band be worse than hearing it in Shrek 3? Aren't they getting money either way? Aren't they making everybody happy (well maybe not the kids. Shrek sucks.)? From where does this snooty snobbery come?
I wonder if the difference, in their mind anyway, is the interaction that videogames provide. Just hearing a song in the background and "playing" a song in a videogame with a fake guitar are pretty different. These games now provide a way to fake jam. It's like air guitar taken to a new level. In the past if you wanted to experience the feeling of being in a band you had to do it for real. Now that experience is available to everyone in a watered down form. I can see why legitimate musicians would not like that.
Is Immigrant Song actually in Shrek 3? I've never seen it.
I personally would love to have my song in one of these games just for the sheer exposure of it. Same with an iPod ad. When I was a teen I would have considered using my music in ANY ad as selling out. But now I see the value of the exposure it provides. It's not just about money but getting the music out there so that more people hear it. And if you can make a living with music you can dedicate more time to it because you don't have to work another job to feed yourself. Money allows you to do music full time. Fame allows your music to be heard by more people. They should be tools, not goals. My principle is that I make music I enjoy. I would only consider myself a sellout if I was writing songs I didn't like and appearing on TV to shill an album I hated.
Post by: vudu on June 24, 2009, 05:46:08 PM
Is Immigrant Song actually in Shrek 3? I've never seen it.
Quote
The song is also one of the few Led Zeppelin songs to have been licensed for a film. For the 2003 film School of Rock, actor Jack Black filmed himself on stage, along with thousands of screaming fans, begging Led Zeppelin to let them use "Immigrant Song". The song also appears, in a slightly changed version due to licensing reasons, in Shrek the Third, when Snow White attacks the city gates, guarded by Huorns. She cries the characteristic war cry of Robert Plant, backed by the riff, as in the beginning of the original song.
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrant_Song#Cultural_influence)
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on June 24, 2009, 08:37:06 PM
First, I'm surprised at the uproar over these two comments. I mean, two talented musicians basically saying that GH is just a game.... is this something to be surprised or upset about? Sure it's good that these games are creating awareness of a wider array of music, but isn't it sad that a video game that doesn't actually teach you very much about music at all is the most effective tool we seem to have?
Since when do we expect video games to teach us anything? It's not a tool. It's a game. I guess with some creativity, maybe it could be used as a tool to teach "music" (whatever that means), kind of like how you can use a shoe to pound a nail, but at least I don't have to listen to a carpenter whine about his "art" when I do that.
I wonder if the difference, in their mind anyway, is the interaction that videogames provide. Just hearing a song in the background and "playing" a song in a videogame with a fake guitar are pretty different.
It is different, but I can't conceive how it could be seen as worse (unless maybe they heard how much I abuse the whammy bar in those games). At least when I'm playing a song in GH (on a tangent, there's no more need for the quotes here than when we talk about playing a level in Super Mario Bros. -- a song is just a level in GH, and we play them), my attention is focused on the music. I'm far more likely to appreciate the artistry and take something away from it than I am if it's playing in the background while I shoot an alien.
(I don't mean that as a dig against video game music, by the way. I'm a big fan.)
Post by: rbtr on June 25, 2009, 02:32:38 AM
What's your hobby (outside of gaming) and how would you feel to see it stripped down to its most basic component(IN the case of guitar hero and the like, rhythm)? Would it really be the same when other people experience the most basic component only? It's the difference between fresh squeezed orange juice and orange soda.
I used to play Soccer. You don't hear me complaining about FIFA or ProEvo.
I don't often see football players complain that playing a season of Madden isn't a suitable replacement for the real thing (no ****!).
Race car drivers don't bitch that Mario Kart and NFS are "cheapening" their profession.
Ninja Assassins don't spend their time decrying Tenchu.
Well, I'd say the big difference here is that music isn't a sport, it's an art. Music is one of the things that gives us "culture". I think rhythm games cheapen the experience in a similar way to paint by numbers. Like Ian Sane has said though, we're past the point where people are claiming that its anywhere near the same.
I just hate seeing my little brother play Guitar hero, while his real guitar sits in the corner neglected. It's important to get people (kids especially) into music, but more important to get them into making music. I think that Nintendo's efforts at games like this are more in line with that. Mario Paint wasn't a paint by numbers, you had to create, it was a free canvas. Wii Music lets you improvise, let's you change the tempo, let's you make the music your own to a point. If people don't get interested in making music, then new music doesn't get made.
But yeah, guitar hero is just a game. I don't expect it to change the world. But just as WoW can destroy some people's lives, Guitar Hero (and rock band) could destroy young future musicians.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 25, 2009, 03:57:10 AM
Post by: Stratos on June 25, 2009, 05:44:33 PM
Playing GH/RB has given me exposure and appreciation for music I would have otherwise not heard or given much time. It also motivates me to learn versions of these songs on my real guitar. The key here I think is balance. Should a kid stay inside all day and play WiiSports while neglecting going outside and playing the sports in real life? I think parents should ancourage balance between the two in children.
Post by: Rize on July 04, 2009, 02:52:15 PM
It's also funny he should say this since GH/RB drumming is the closest thing to the real instrument (although still very far since there is no feedback for how hard you hit the drum head).
