Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: KDR_11k on June 17, 2009, 03:43:05 PM
Title: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: KDR_11k on June 17, 2009, 03:43:05 PM
For this purpose a core game is a game that's designed in a pre-Wii fashion, designed for a traditional console with Wii controls added as an afterthought. Why do I want them to die? Because they abuse the system. The controls were designed for buttons but often have waggle thrown in just because the developer felt it was necessary. Even worse, some use the Wiimote sideways or even the classic controller. What's the point of having those games on the Wii? People complained about the Wii being a Gamecube 1.5, these games MAKE it a Gamecube 1.5! The Wii is the Wii, it can do more than a Gamecube 1.5!
A proper Wii game should not feel like the controls were a second choice solution that was only picked because the Wii couldn't do it any better, a proper Wii game should feel like the Wii is the proper fit for it. A proper Wii game is enabled, not hindered by the Wiimote. I don't want to play more lame excuses for Wii games that feel like the developer just took a design meant for an old console and mindlessly bolteed it on the Wii.
But I don't see this ending because the biggest offender will never stop. Who is the biggest offender? Nintendo themselves! Brawl was a GC game with prettier graphics. Galaxy was primarily a GC game with the Wii functions fairly non-essential for the gameplay. Batallion Wars felt retarded, why do I even HAVE a pointer to point at stuff when the game's designed around lock-on and unit commands are either following the lock or the current unit? Why couldn't I point and click to order a unit to a position? What is this crap, is that how you're going to sell your advantage over other consoles, by ignoring it? Give us more reasons to say "yes, the Wiimote was the right way to go"! Don't just throw core games at veteran gamers as if to say "you guys have no use for motion controls and could have stayed with the PS2"! Tell us why we need motion controls! Don't keep acting like motion controls are only intended for people who have never played a game before, I KNOW they're useful for making new games for veteran gamers too so stop copy-pasting your damn design documents and make a Wii game that deserves to be called one!
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: ShyGuy on June 17, 2009, 03:54:57 PM
I disagree.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 17, 2009, 04:00:58 PM
You had me until you implied that Nintendo shouldn't have made Galaxy.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NWR_pap64 on June 17, 2009, 04:23:03 PM
I honestly don't see the point of this thread other than being a sarcastic troll bait thread.
Better state your real purpose, KDR.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 17, 2009, 04:28:41 PM
KDR has valid criticisms.
Then again, it will end up being a big "Bat Signal" to Ian.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 17, 2009, 04:35:44 PM
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: King of Twitch on June 17, 2009, 04:38:17 PM
I can't help, I don't make games for Nintendo.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: ShyGuy on June 17, 2009, 04:43:45 PM
I agree that games need to be dedicated to the controls, but it takes time. People still haven't figured out the touchscreen completely.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 17, 2009, 04:52:27 PM
How about, "Start make core games designed from the ground up for the Wii!"
and no, I did not read more that the 1st sentence of the OP before replying
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Ian Sane on June 17, 2009, 04:55:49 PM
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Then again, it will end up being a big "Bat Signal" to Ian.
Wouldn't that be an "Ian Signal" then? ;) His usage of the expression "core games" is one that I think only he uses but he's right in that a lot of Wii games make no real use of the Wii's unique features.
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What's the point of having those games on the Wii?
Well ideally we should want the best games to be on the Wii. Whether or not they support motion control shouldn't matter. It just has to be a good game. If anything I think forced motion control hurts the Wii more than anything. If one can't find a good use for the remote they should just use the classic controller. Use whatever works best for the game you're making.
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But I don't see this ending because the biggest offender will never stop. Who is the biggest offender? Nintendo themselves! Brawl was a GC game with prettier graphics. Galaxy was primarily a GC game with the Wii functions fairly non-essential for the gameplay. Batallion Wars felt retarded, why do I even HAVE a pointer to point at stuff when the game's designed around lock-on and unit commands are either following the lock or the current unit? Why couldn't I point and click to order a unit to a position? What is this crap, is that how you're going to sell your advantage over other consoles, by ignoring it?
The problem I think is that motion control is overrated, or least it is in it's current form. Future enhancements to it might make it more the standard Nintendo wants it to be. I don't think Nintendo is not using motion control on purpose. I think there's the possibility they just CAN'T do better. They CAN'T think of a better idea. They probably wanted to make a Mario game that used it but found that it controlled like **** unless it was only minor usage. They probably tried to make it work with SSB Brawl and discovered that flailing your arms about to the extent you would have to for that game was physically tiring and not fun.
But these games are still great. I'm happy Nintendo made them. I have no problem with being upset that the Wii is effectively a Gamecube 1.5 (you paid money for a new console for games that Nintendo could have made for the Gamecube after all) but you really can't complain that those games exist because they're great. A great game is still a great game.
I would prefer they do a better job at "proving" the motion control concept. I dislike forced motion controller, like waggle, entirely because it sucks. If it didn't, well that would be fucking great. I hope Nintendo figures it out. I don't think they will though. Not with just the remote as is. We'll see what Motion+ can do.
Maybe they would do better though if their "gamer games" weren't all sequels and thus had to follow a convention created with the old controller. How much can you innovate when there are expectations about how your games plays like? Instead of making a Mario game and spinning your wheels trying to figure out how to implement motion control into the Mario formula how about you come up with gameplay concepts that use the remote and then make a new IP around it? What a concept!
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on June 17, 2009, 05:44:36 PM
Oh my, Ian makes sense. One thing I thing about some Wii games is that they offer good amount of control options which allows gamers to pick which control option that they are more comfortable with. Personally I like Wii's motion controls and IR pointer functionality especially if they are implemented well, all I really care about is if a game is awesome, controls well, is engaging, and fun.
Just because something is on Wii doesn't mean that it has to be forced to use motion controls, or if a game is on the DS and is forced to use touch screen controls. Games with bad controls and broken controls exist on all platforms, so I think it's easier to criticize a developer who did a bad job at a game rather than what game or type of game being on a specific platform.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 17, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
It's been years since Doki Doki Panikku brought Mario the ability to hold & throw items in a game. Now, we're able to throw frisbees and play Disc Golf with Lotion Puss.
It's about time we closed that generational gap and introduced action games where we can make our characters toss objects around to overcome obstacles and enemies and such. Maybe Mario can lob a turtle shell over a high wall, bank it off a farther wall, and strike a switch that was on the opposite side of the first wall that Mario obviously couldn't get to. Junk like that.
So not only are our hands more literally in the game (swinging swards or sports clubs, things we already know about), but our hands should affect the behavior of in-game objects with greater variety now (lobbing turtle shells, grenades, swinging a ball&chain, making waves on ropes or curtains or fabrics, scooping/carving material into various shapes, virtual whiteboard effects, playing catch, refined flashlight aiming, etc).
And it'll be much much more than "hold straight to turn right, turn right to crash into the siderail."
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Mop it up on June 17, 2009, 06:21:37 PM
I disagree that ALL games need to be made specifically for Wii and use every single one of its features (even games like SSBBrawl and Mario Kart Wii use a feature the GameCube didn't have: online play, and Miis in Mario Kart), but I do agree Nintendo needs to do (and should have done) more to prove the Wii controller as a "standard" for ALL game types. However, this probably hasn't happened because the technology isn't yet strong enough, so I guess we'll have to wait...
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 17, 2009, 07:19:28 PM
So what does that make New Play Control? Somewhere in between (if that's possible)?
I really think Nintendo would be better off if they tried to make games like they did for the NES: from scratch. NES didn't sell because Mario featured the Mario character, or because Zelda was another Zelda game. They were fresh exciting games that appealed to the non-video-gamers (of the time). Wii Sports is this. Ideally, they should design games around controls, and not the other way around, which is what I think KDR is emphasizing. If they avoid existing franchises they'll be open to new experiences, and likely better ones.
Of course that isn't to say they should stop making core games. A good game is a good game, take MarioKart Wii for example.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NWR_pap64 on June 17, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
What I find funny is that to a certain extend some of the games KDR mentioned can't be done on the Wii...
For example, in Galaxy there are scenes in which you use the pointer to guide Mario in a bubble through some obstacles. This would be very hard to replicate with traditional controls.
Using the pointer for aiming makes A WORLD of difference in some games. Resident Evil 4 on Wii was a completely different experience from the GC and PS2 version because it made the aiming extremely easy and using the knife was actually fun and needed.
I think KDR is right to a certain extend. Nintendo has said that while they would love to see more games revolve around the Wii Remote only it would be silly of them and third parties to try and tack on motion controls where they aren't needed or don't work. Hell, everybody hates the NPC games because this point is proven.
I still want to know what is the purpose of this thread since KDR is making a BIG claim and want to know the circumstances.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 17, 2009, 10:20:18 PM
The circumstance is he's reached his boiling point.
Instant ramen ready in a minute.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: broodwars on June 17, 2009, 10:44:52 PM
Well, a lot of the problems designing games around the Wii remote right now boil down to the Wiimote being way too inaccurate for any decent game based around a core gamer experience to function properly. Wii developers have no choice but to use waggle because there are too few buttons, but because the Wiimote can't accurately sense movement (unless it's very broad movement) it just doesn't work. We'll see what happens now that Wii Motion + has arrived, as it should allow developers to properly map controller functions to the thing and not suck (due to Wiimote inaccuracy, anyway). But if anything we need more core games on Wii, not less.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NWR_pap64 on June 18, 2009, 01:21:24 AM
But if anything we need more core games on Wii, not less.
For once we agree on something. I understand all about quality is more important than quantity, but I think the more diverse a gaming library is the more enticing is to the consumer.
The PSone and PS2 had huge game libraries, even if a few of them were only great. But still it made players happy because there was something to play.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: KDR_11k on June 18, 2009, 04:19:40 AM
Boom Blox worked fine being designed around precise Wiimote motions. It's not very accurate when moved quickly but when moved slowly it seems to be sufficiently precise for most purposes. There's more the Wiimote can do than just thwack stuff with a stick, what about something like an archaeology game? Or a puzzle adventure game where you interact directly with your environments instead of using context sesitive actions? Hell, Zack & Wiki worked fine too.
I posted this because I was really annoyed by Nintendo's direction for E3 2009. "Core gamers" are a misnomer anyway, veteran gamers just want more complex games, not strictly core games but Nintendo doesn't seem to be making any effort to appeal to them with anything but core games, furthering the notion that core and veteran are the same thing and stand opposed to casual. Come on, with the control values as the focus instead of graphics a game for the veteran gamer shouldn't be very expensive to make and pull the last leg MS and Sony are standing on out from under them. Going against them with games that use traditional controls is a red ocean strategy (and I can't imagine many other reasons for Galaxy 2 or Other M, both are squarely aimed at veteran gamers), I thought Nintendo was going to avoid that? Draw their customers away with moves they cannot replicate! Make them face games they cannot make! Yes, that'll require innovation but isn't that what Nintendo is all about? Finding new ways to entertain people?
Though I'll be fair to Other M, we have no idea how it works so it might use motion controls in a great way but their advertising seems to be aimed at core values currently.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2009, 08:54:33 AM
What's the point of having those games on the Wii?
The point of making them on the Wii is because if they aren't on the Wii then they have to be on the PS3 or 360 or else not exist at all. If you don't like them, just don't buy them. I don't see why you are offended by them existing when no one is forcing you to play them.
And having them on the Wii even thought they can be done on other systems is important because not everyone owns these other systems. Most households that own video games will likely only have one system, which this generations fortunately happens to be a Nintendo system. If you're a Nintendo fan, why do you want them to abandon the hardcore audience and just focus on waggle party games?
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: KDR_11k on June 18, 2009, 10:13:20 AM
If you're a Nintendo fan, why do you want them to abandon the hardcore audience and just focus on waggle party games?
If you read my post why do you think I ever said that?
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NovaQ on June 18, 2009, 10:39:59 AM
With the classic controller and sideways-Wiimote setups, Nintendo is allowing plenty of flexibility in game design (and also a means of covering their posteriors in case the Wiimote failed). I imagine they not only want the Wii to be accessible to as wide a range of potential customers as possible, but also to as many game developers as possible. I can't say a variety of options seems to be a bad thing.
I agree that releases in the "previous gen games + waggle" style need to decrease in favor of games with more complex motion controls. Ningurl's post with Mario throwing a turtle shell has some great examples of this, and I think (hope) Motion Plus is what will get developers to that more complex motion-controlled kind of game.
It sounds like the advent of quality in-game physics engines will play a crucial role in this, too. Again, Ningurl's turtle shell post shows just how necessary it will be for accurate physics to be in place for more in-depth motion controls to be truly fun. I know Brawl used a physics engine, but what else on the Wii has? Though I am wondering if Wii's processing power can handle competent enough physics, I also ask that question because I simply don't know the answer. (Though, I suppose if the physics-reliant Half-Life 2 could make it to X-Box, something at least that complex should be fine on Wii.)
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 18, 2009, 12:15:30 PM
Boom Blox, Mario Galaxy, Kororinpa, Wii Fit, Wii Sports, Wii Play and more employ physics to dictate various gameplay behaviors.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Ian Sane on June 18, 2009, 03:22:45 PM
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What I find funny is that to a certain extend some of the games KDR mentioned can't be done on the Wii...
For example, in Galaxy there are scenes in which you use the pointer to guide Mario in a bubble through some obstacles. This would be very hard to replicate with traditional controls.
Those are like isolated levels though. Take those out, replace with different levels and if that was how it always was no one would notice and the game would end up just as great since the core gameplay remains. Stuff like the bubble and the stingrays and such are more like mini-games but the basic Mario running and jumping around planets would remain in tact with traditional controls. Something like Wii Sports though would lose so much of its charm with tradtional controls it would go from a killer app to bargain bin trash.
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Come on, with the control values as the focus instead of graphics a game for the veteran gamer shouldn't be very expensive to make and pull the last leg MS and Sony are standing on out from under them. Going against them with games that use traditional controls is a red ocean strategy (and I can't imagine many other reasons for Galaxy 2 or Other M, both are squarely aimed at veteran gamers), I thought Nintendo was going to avoid that? Draw their customers away with moves they cannot replicate! Make them face games they cannot make!
Nintendo is in a different position now though. Blue ocean made sense when Nintendo was the last place loser console with no clout. Now they're the market leader. They have the position of power and that lets them directly attack the competition.
And I don't see how trying to match the competion is a bad thing. What sounds better? Being different or having the same things they have plus MORE? If Nintendo restricts the types of games to be made on the Wii then they are giving the competition an advantage. Nintendo may be winning but Sony and MS can point to a HUGE pile of great third party games that use traditional controls and are not on the Wii because of the hardware difference. That may not knock Nintendo from their perch but it's a pro for the competion and a con for the Wii. Why give people a reason to check out the competition? Why give them a reason to choose them over you? I consider that sort of thing exactly why the Cube never went anywhere because Nintendo just handed out reasons to buy the competition instead of them.
What you're suggesting is to have a clear seperation between Nintendo and the others. But how is that good for Nintendo? That just creates two markets. How well do you think the PS3 and Xbox 360 would be doing if, hypothetically, the Wii had comparable specs to them and still sold the numbers it did. So it's like the PS3 with motion control. Every third party game of significance would be on the Wii. There would probably be a lot of multi-platform games but this "spin-off for the Wii; real game to the others" routine would not happen. Right now Sony and MS are an alternative. But what if they were just outright inferior with only their first party efforts and a few token third party exclusives to carry them? They would be like the Gamecube but with an obviously weaker first party lineup. In other words they would be FUCKED. They're not because the Wii is just different, not better.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: ShyGuy on June 18, 2009, 03:28:36 PM
I don't see how trying to match the competion is a bad thing.
Arms races are expensive, look at Sony this generation. This is not a business model to aspire too.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: KDR_11k on June 18, 2009, 04:39:16 PM
Blue Ocean is about striking where the enemy is weak or nonexistant, not where he is strong and when you think about it like that there's simply no point in attacking a red ocean, whether you're the market leader or the loser. MS and Sony are strong in the traditional controller games and can do better there than Nintendo (by having better graphics and online play). Nintendo has the motion controls that are a strength neither MS nor Sony can match. They have to use that strength to beat MS or Sony, they can't just throw it aside and try to go toe to toe. However the motion controls are STRONG, they greatly improve the HD consoles' primary genre, the xPS and we all know that pointer aim adds so much to those that graphics can't make up for the difference. Their second-strongest genre is the melee brawler like God of War or the various Dynasty Warriors wannabes. These involve swords or things like that which SHOULD be a strong point for motion controls but currently aren't, I suppose that could be fixed. That racing games benefit from having a steering wheel instead of a tiny stick is a given (honestly I've never gotten used to analog sticks on those). Sports games are already strongly benefitting. Western RPGs tend to be xPS or melee brawler games with stats and choices, those should have the advantages of the linear games too. Only the open world games might suffer but then again GTA3 had a very open world on the PS2 so that's just a matter of bothering to actually do it (and again open world games tend to be xPS).
So as I see it even the traditional genres have the potential to be massively improved by motion controls provided the designs are made to work with them instead of against them. Sports games benefitted because they replicate a real game played with real tools, not a concept designed around a controller with buttons. Many current genres were designed around button controllers so far and never had a real motion implementation, if their old designs get reused then motion controls must be shoehorned. The designs must be rethought to work with motion controls (e.g. fighting games cannot be as much about pre-defined button sequences, those were a way of requiring the player to input gestures with a controller that wasn't really built for it!) while retaining the basic idea. What developers fail to do is remove the controller specific parts from the design. They take all the old ideas verbatim instead of going through and making sure to remove the workarounds that were added because of the button controller in first place.
Imagine a Wii golf game that used the three button press swing mechanic controller-based golf games use. That's a fucking ridiculous idea. Yet it's what other genres do to the system.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2009, 05:31:28 PM
I might be in the minority, but I didn't really enjoy the stingray and bubble courses in Galaxy, because I kept getting killed in them and they frustrated me to no end. I eventually did beat them, but it took me many lives and a lot of wasted time doing it. It wasn't fun to me at all, and once I was finished with them it was a huge relief.
The rest of the game for me was enjoyable and it was challenging but not to the extent of being frustrating.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Ian Sane on June 18, 2009, 07:01:17 PM
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I might be in the minority, but I didn't really enjoy the stingray and bubble courses in Galaxy, because I kept getting killed in them and they frustrated me to no end. I eventually did beat them, but it took me many lives and a lot of wasted time doing it. It wasn't fun to me at all, and once I was finished with them it was a huge relief.
I had a lot of difficulty on the stingray courses as for some reason I couldn't get the remote to acknowledge my right turns. It literally took like 10 minutes to get past the little tutorial because try as I might the remote just wouldn't co-operate with me.
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Nintendo has the motion controls that are a strength neither MS nor Sony can match. They have to use that strength to beat MS or Sony, they can't just throw it aside and try to go toe to toe.
Well I agree that they can't just throw it aside. But motion control vs. traditional control is not a strength. It's just a matter of opinon and for me the comparison is in favour of Sony and MS. Motion control, as is, sucks. Traditional controls win out. But traditional control + motion control vs. just traditional control IS a clear advantage.
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Many current genres were designed around button controllers so far and never had a real motion implementation, if their old designs get reused then motion controls must be shoehorned. The designs must be rethought to work with motion controls
To me this isn't good game design. This is forcing ideology. This assumes far too much that motion control is the ideal standard. It isn't. You enforce this and you get, well, exactly what we get now: lots of games that control like ****.
There's nothing wrong with wanting better implementation of the remote and to have games that fulfill the promises Nintendo was making with the Wii. But there is the possibility that with the current remote that this just isn't possible. You may be asking Nintendo to create something that no one can make.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2009, 10:39:55 PM
I had a lot of difficulty on the stingray courses as for some reason I couldn't get the remote to acknowledge my right turns. It literally took like 10 minutes to get past the little tutorial because try as I might the remote just wouldn't co-operate with me.
Did you try the stingray course on the planet of trials? You get there when you've saved the 3 green stars and they open up a portal to it near to the spaceship on the observatory. There is also a very tough bubble course and something else as well... I did beat them all, but it was very difficult and frustrating and looking back I shouldn't have done it because I didn't collect every star in the game anyway so I shouldn't have bothered with those.
Anyway, I'm just saying if you've had difficult with just the tutorial (which I did too) then wait til you get to that huge course that you have to beat in under 5 minutes or something... the only good thing I can say is that it is fairly easy to pick up some 1up mushrooms in it so you can keep at it pretty much indefinitely without getting a game over.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 18, 2009, 11:13:54 PM
Are you really complaining about challenges that are meant to be difficult?
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 19, 2009, 12:04:37 AM
Are you really complaining about challenges that are meant to be difficult?
There's difficult and then there's frustrating. The difference is difficult is something that isn't easy but you can do it with practice or if you're a good gamer, but frustrating is when the controls are ridiculous and unresponsive to what you're trying to accomplish. Like Ian pointed out with the game not responding to right turns... I suppose that does fit the challenge of being difficult, but its a difficulty that doesn't go away no matter how good a gamer you are. I really don't think the developers intended unresponsive motion controls to be part of the game's design. It was an error that makes the game a bit more challenging, but also a LOT more frustrating.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 19, 2009, 12:13:45 AM
When you're holding the Remote in your right hand, it's naturally easier to turn your wrist counterclockwise than go clockwise with the resistance and range inherent to your wrist.
I held it with my fingertips with one or both hands together to get the freedom I needed. The Remote was a paper airplane to me in that situation, so I'll think outside the box for once and not treat it like a mere TV Remote. The Remote was conceived outside the box in the first place.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: KDR_11k on June 19, 2009, 03:10:08 AM
But motion control vs. traditional control is not a strength. It's just a matter of opinon and for me the comparison is in favour of Sony and MS. Motion control, as is, sucks. Traditional controls win out. But traditional control + motion control vs. just traditional control IS a clear advantage.
That's because you didn't play the games that used the controls properly. As I said, many games just assume there are buttons for everything and then map gestures to them.
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To me this isn't good game design. This is forcing ideology. This assumes far too much that motion control is the ideal standard. It isn't. You enforce this and you get, well, exactly what we get now: lots of games that control like ****.
No, it's telling people to stop acting like they're making games for a traditional console. Designs need rethinking. You can't make a fighting game using motion controls if you still design it in the Street Fighter style (because that was invented to bridge the gap between buttons and martial arts in first place). Some games control like **** because they were badly designed. Others control perfectly well and natural because they were properly designed. Of course we currently get a lot of games with bad controls but that's because proper controls require attention and sill, something shovelware isn't afforded so let's just ignore shovelware, there's no way of fixing that particular mess.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: ThePerm on June 19, 2009, 04:35:40 AM
start making good games with the Wii controller in mind is all i say. Twilight princess is a good example, a future game could have motion plus control for the sword instead of waggle.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: KDR_11k on June 19, 2009, 06:18:31 AM
BTW, I feel like I should mention that I consider the IR pointer part of the motion controls. It's definitely the biggest reason the Wii's controls are superior to other consoles'
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Ian Sane on June 19, 2009, 01:20:20 PM
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When you're holding the Remote in your right hand, it's naturally easier to turn your wrist counterclockwise than go clockwise with the resistance and range inherent to your wrist.
I held it with my fingertips with one or both hands together to get the freedom I needed. The Remote was a paper airplane to me in that situation, so I'll think outside the box for once and not treat it like a mere TV Remote. The Remote was conceived outside the box in the first place.
But Nintendo's diagram of how to control the stringray showed the hand holding the remote like a remote. I was doing it exactly how Nintendo was telling me to so it better fucking work that way or the controls are broken horseshit.
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That's because you didn't play the games that used the controls properly.
I've played Wii Sports and Metroid Prime 3. Isn't that pretty much the best of the best in regards to making full use of the remote?
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No, it's telling people to stop acting like they're making games for a traditional console.
Why must it be traditional console vs. motion controlled console? Why can't it just be a console? So you make games for it. Maybe you make a fighting game from the ground up that uses motion control OR maybe you want to make something more old-school with SFII style moves. You should be able to make both. Gamers should be able to play both on their console so as to have choice. To me this is like in the Playstation days where 2D was seen as inferior and old and games had to be 3D DAMMIT! And while many fantastic 3D games were made we saw 2D games get overlooked and relegated to portables. But I just see 2D and 3D as different formats of gaming with their own pros and cons. Neither one is superior they're just different and depending on the game one or the other is more suitable. Ditto with traditional controls vs. motion controls.
I would like to see games designed from the ground up to use motion controls and I think if Nintendo got out of their rut and were not so insistent on sticking to their franchises and using new IP only for non-games we could see that. And at the same time I don't want to see lame ass waggle anymore. If you're just mapping button pushes to gestures then support the classic controller so that those that bought it aren't stuck playing with broken ass controls.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 19, 2009, 01:28:55 PM
"But Nintendo's diagram of how to control the stringray showed the hand holding the remote like a remote. I was doing it exactly how Nintendo was telling me to so it better fucking work that way or the controls are broken horseshit."
Nintendo's the same company that told me "Press A" instead of "Hold A" to make Link wrestle the goat-cow early on in Twilight Princess (and later the final boss), so Nintendo's no god of traditional controls either. If you ask me to press A, I'll give it a tap at right time and let it go, cuz that's how games and the rest of the modern world works, which only led to disastrous results in that stupid game. I followed the game's directions, it just wasn't aware of what directions it gave me. Talk about complete fucking frustration via miscommunication, those moments really killed the game for me. The boss fight took a half-hour longer than it should have.
Dammit that game makes me sick.
And no, I didn't have trouble with the stingray when I held the Remote the "normal" way, but I looked for a better solution for myself anyway. Just like how my index finger always hovered Z-button on the GameCube controller when I played Melee--I had no use for the R-trigger.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: KDR_11k on June 19, 2009, 03:36:24 PM
Wii Sports works perfectly. The combat grapple in Prime 3 was pretty annoying though and felt like a lame upgrade compared to all the different beams and super beams in Prime 1 or stuff like the super missiles in Super Metroid. The doors and stuff worked well enough I think.
Yeah, okay, not EVERY game has to be designed for the Wii but currently it's like every game outside of WiiWare is designed around regular controls with the Wii tacked on. That really needs to change.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 19, 2009, 09:33:11 PM
Basically, if the motion controls could be easily replaced with a traditional controller, then don't bother adding motion. This is the "waggle" crap that impresses no one. Let's see more games that can be only achieved through Wii.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: ThomasO on June 19, 2009, 10:13:42 PM
I thought Elebits was a good game that could only be accomplished on Wii... if it weren't for the slowdown and not-completely impressive graphics... but I still thought it was fun. I did wait however, two years to buy it used for $5.
I always thought that making games that use only the Classic Controller would alienate those players that do not own them, which might be why it's not implemented much. But I'm no expert, of course... :-\
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 20, 2009, 12:38:01 AM
Basically, if the motion controls could be easily replaced with a traditional controller, then don't bother adding motion. This is the "waggle" crap that impresses no one. Let's see more games that can be only achieved through Wii.
You really have to be more specific than that, golf can easily be done with a three point meter like it always has been but there's no way I'd ever want to go back to that after playing Tiger Woods 10. Same thing for Wii controls in FPSs vs. dual analog or mouse/keyboard.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Peachylala on June 20, 2009, 01:37:35 AM
I would love more FPS on Wii, but I would like them in colors other then brown.
Thanks for making this gen of games **** colored HD. >:(
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NWR_pap64 on June 20, 2009, 02:26:17 AM
Boom Blox worked fine being designed around precise Wiimote motions. It's not very accurate when moved quickly but when moved slowly it seems to be sufficiently precise for most purposes. There's more the Wiimote can do than just thwack stuff with a stick, what about something like an archaeology game? Or a puzzle adventure game where you interact directly with your environments instead of using context sesitive actions? Hell, Zack & Wiki worked fine too.
I posted this because I was really annoyed by Nintendo's direction for E3 2009. "Core gamers" are a misnomer anyway, veteran gamers just want more complex games, not strictly core games but Nintendo doesn't seem to be making any effort to appeal to them with anything but core games, furthering the notion that core and veteran are the same thing and stand opposed to casual. Come on, with the control values as the focus instead of graphics a game for the veteran gamer shouldn't be very expensive to make and pull the last leg MS and Sony are standing on out from under them. Going against them with games that use traditional controls is a red ocean strategy (and I can't imagine many other reasons for Galaxy 2 or Other M, both are squarely aimed at veteran gamers), I thought Nintendo was going to avoid that? Draw their customers away with moves they cannot replicate! Make them face games they cannot make! Yes, that'll require innovation but isn't that what Nintendo is all about? Finding new ways to entertain people?
Though I'll be fair to Other M, we have no idea how it works so it might use motion controls in a great way but their advertising seems to be aimed at core values currently.
See, this is why I asked why you posted this. This is basically the casual argument but backwards. Instead of "Nintendo should stop making casual games with gimmicky controls and focus on core games"its "Nintendo should stop making core games and focus more on games that control with the Wii Remore only", which either way its a bullsh*t argument.
I do agree that more games should be made with Wii controls made in mind. But are basically asking Nintendo AND developers to alienate consumers and themselves just because of a belief that isn't even perfect to begin with.
Its already confirmed that the Wii Remote is great for some things, bad for others and not even Nintendo has yet to fully master it. They understood this from the very beginning and that's why they made the controls accessible to the developers and players. If they love the motion controls they stick with them, if they prefer buttons that's available too. Once again, even if Nintendo believes in motion control they aren't dumb to just ditch the traditional elements that work just to pursue something.
This is why I think Natal will bring a lot of issues to MS. The idea of no controls is far too ambitious and will have issues.
Speaking of E3...
You speak of E3 as if it was a massive core fest. It wasn't the only two examples were Mario Galaxy 2 and Other Me. The rest were games that utilized Motion Plus, casual games and the likes. It was a fair and balanced show so I understand why you are even upset.
Either way, what I am getting at is that just as the casual argument is silly this core argument of yours is even more stupid since its asking everyone to limit their ideas just for the sake of a novelty. I LOVE the Wii. I love it when I have to stand up and replicate the motions or when I am sitting down and pushing buttons.
I hate elitism either way and this seems like it. Sorry, but that's what I think of this whole argument and would have accepted it had this been a cynical parody of what most analysts say when dealing with the Wii.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: KDR_11k on June 20, 2009, 02:56:57 AM
NSMBW didn't have significant use of the Wii controls either from what I read. Of course you COULD call it casual...
I'm saying developers should try harder. I'm pretty sure the current problems with motion controls stem partially from lazyness that makes developers reuse pre-Wii designs on the Wii without alterations. Of course those play better with buttons, that's what they were designed for.
It's not picking the best option if the devs don't even try one of them. This lazyness is propagating the belief that the motion controls aren't useful for most games.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 20, 2009, 05:30:17 PM
Basically, if the motion controls could be easily replaced with a traditional controller, then don't bother adding motion. This is the "waggle" crap that impresses no one. Let's see more games that can be only achieved through Wii.
You really have to be more specific than that, golf can easily be done with a three point meter like it always has been but there's no way I'd ever want to go back to that after playing Tiger Woods 10. Same thing for Wii controls in FPSs vs. dual analog or mouse/keyboard.
Perhaps I should say, where motion control doesn't give you more 'control'. I agree with you, if they tried to bring back three-point golf I'd call it ridiculous. But then again I wouldn't consider them to be the same type of game. Really, I think a lot of games rely on a mish-mash of button/waggle controls when they'd be better as more defined parts.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: NWR_Lindy on June 20, 2009, 07:01:26 PM
I'm saying developers should try harder. I'm pretty sure the current problems with motion controls stem partially from lazyness that makes developers reuse pre-Wii designs on the Wii without alterations. Of course those play better with buttons, that's what they were designed for.
Do you think this is still happening though? I mean, the Wii has been on the market for almost three years. I doubt anybody is literally still basing their Wii games on designs they wrote back in 2005.
It's not picking the best option if the devs don't even try one of them. This lazyness is propagating the belief that the motion controls aren't useful for most games.
Maybe they aren't. Or, maybe they aren't all they're cracked up to be at this point, so developers came to the consensus that they currently aren't appropriate for certain types of gameplay. Like you stated in your original post, Nintendo themselves releases major games that barely use the motion controls that they themselves pioneered. That's pretty telling. If this is the case, it's developers doing what they think is best for their games, not developers being lazy.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: KDR_11k on June 21, 2009, 03:09:08 AM
I'm saying developers should try harder. I'm pretty sure the current problems with motion controls stem partially from lazyness that makes developers reuse pre-Wii designs on the Wii without alterations. Of course those play better with buttons, that's what they were designed for.
Do you think this is still happening though? I mean, the Wii has been on the market for almost three years. I doubt anybody is literally still basing their Wii games on designs they wrote back in 2005.
I don't mean they're using their own old designs but when making their designs heavily copy non-Wii games. Design copying isn't exclusive to the Wii of course but the Wii is where it tends to fail.
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Maybe they aren't. Or, maybe they aren't all they're cracked up to be at this point, so developers came to the consensus that they currently aren't appropriate for certain types of gameplay. Like you stated in your original post, Nintendo themselves releases major games that barely use the motion controls that they themselves pioneered. That's pretty telling. If this is the case, it's developers doing what they think is best for their games, not developers being lazy.
I think developers should go for types of gameplay that benefit from motion controls or even find new types. Nintendo's output is strongly based around sequels of last gen games which obviously weren't designed around the Wii. Way too many devs are uncreative and copy stuff, either from non-Wii games or the huge sea of Wii Sports wannabes. The Wii requires innovation and it seems noone is really willing to do that.
Of course it doesn't help when a game like Disaster that's designed around the Wii is swept under the rug.
Title: Re: Stop making core games for the Wii!
Post by: Plugabugz on June 21, 2009, 06:40:12 AM
