Gaming Forums => General Gaming => Topic started by: Mop it up on April 13, 2009, 03:03:51 AM
Title: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Mop it up on April 13, 2009, 03:03:51 AM
Recently I have seen some people claim that games such as the “Wii” series (Sports, Play, Fit, Music) and things like the New Play Control! series aren’t Nintendo being loyal to their fans. This is something which doesn’t make sense to me, because I’m not really sure what that means.
The way I see it there's no such thing as any company being "loyal" to its consumers, people are just taking a business relationship too personally. Nintendo will release products that attract the most sales, regardless of what that is or who they target. They've never promised to always cater to the same people, so they have the right to release whatever they want. As a consumer, people have a choice too, and if a company no longer offers them a product they want then they can go find a different company who will.
I’m probably missing something here though. Can someone explain to me what it would mean for Nintendo to be “loyal”?
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: ThePerm on April 13, 2009, 03:38:58 AM
well if your a loyal zelda fan than there should be a newer zelda. TP was good, but it was a gamecube game!
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 13, 2009, 04:03:37 AM
I really do not fall in line with this. I've always been a Nintendo fangurl since the late 80s. Even during the Wii generation I have taken a lot of their decisions as, well, business decisions not to mention the fact that I'm flexible enough in my gaming tastes to diversify myself to ENJOY games like Wii Sports. Nintendo under Iwata has been a fun thing to watch, and as someone who studied business in college I can appreciate what Nintendo is doing. Not to mention that, as you stated, Nintendo has NEVER been about a certain group, they've always crafted many of their games towards "everyone", and I do not see that shifting much with WIi. It may take on a new face but the way I see it they are finally accomplishing a goal they've been striving for well over 2 decades.
Now in regards to loyalty itself, there are so many choices now then EVER when it comes to reliable gaming consoles with some great choices of games that if you are somehow disgruntled by Nintendo you can pick up another console (Heck I recommend people picking up more then one console a generation anyway if they can afford it!).
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: EasyCure on April 13, 2009, 10:13:15 AM
I really do not fall in line with this. I've always been a Nintendo fangurl since the late 80s. Even during the Wii generation I have taken a lot of their decisions as, well, business decisions not to mention the fact that I'm flexible enough in my gaming tastes to diversify myself to ENJOY games like Wii Sports. Nintendo under Iwata has been a fun thing to watch, and as someone who studied business in college I can appreciate what Nintendo is doing. Not to mention that, as you stated, Nintendo has NEVER been about a certain group, they've always crafted many of their games towards "everyone", and I do not see that shifting much with WIi. It may take on a new face but the way I see it they are finally accomplishing a goal they've been striving for well over 2 decades.
Now in regards to loyalty itself, there are so many choices now then EVER when it comes to reliable gaming consoles with some great choices of games that if you are somehow disgruntled by Nintendo you can pick up another console (Heck I recommend people picking up more then one console a generation anyway if they can afford it!).
I know you'll HATE me for that GP but it HAD to be DONE..
I can't add any MORE to the topic at hand because i've ALREADY shared my view on this subject MULTIPLE times in OTHER threads. Nintendo hasn't changed a bit.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: KDR_11k on April 13, 2009, 11:48:37 AM
I'd say it's the fans who weren't loyal to Nintendo considering their sales have been going downwards ever since the NES. No wonder Nintendo said "screw that, we're going for the mass market again". Of course it's hard to say they've abandoned the fans when their core titles still massively outnumber their new market titles.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: MoronSonOfBoron on April 13, 2009, 11:15:14 PM
I believe it's been a point iterated multiple times by my brother, Kairon, but to put it simply, Nintendo is very obviously not like other companies in the way they approach the video game business, at least not in modern times. That said, a "fan" by the understood(?) traditional definition may find it difficult to appreciate Nintendo's output.
I'm staring at (or being stared at by) a Gene Simmons banner ad here on NWR as I write this post, and it struck me that the way people approach video game companies is much like the way they approach their other entertainment idols. They hold expectations about the overall persona, methodology, and philosophy represented or endorsed by their idols. In many cases, arguments break out over what, exactly, the "truest" or "best" persona of a particular performer/developer was or is. As an entertainment industry, it is a given that video games will have a talent pool constantly in flux, and thus new personas will become visible, challenging older ones to change direction or hold fast to a "core" fanbase's expectations.
And I don't think Nintendo wants to be the 60-year-old guys doing a reunion tour.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Kairon on April 14, 2009, 12:15:59 AM
I'll be a fan of Nintendo as long as they're loyal to one group:
themselves.
I don't owe Nintendo anything and they don't owe me anything. I'm responsible for my own fun, and they're responsible for their own sales. The beauty of being a fan is just how often the two disparate things intersect.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: UncleBob on April 14, 2009, 12:20:47 AM
I don't owe Nintendo anything and they don't owe me anything.
Ding. We have a winner.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: D_Average on April 14, 2009, 10:26:13 AM
Brand loyalty to inanimate objects is a delusion and some of these people need seriously help. There's actually a large numple of folks impacted by this, which is properly known as "Objectum Sexuals" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlC9q3fxSYY). Many fanbois n gals from all over the spectrum carry a mild form of this disease. Its sad.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Peachylala on April 14, 2009, 11:13:37 AM
Kairon pretty much hit the nail on the head. Nintendo does what they do best, but that doesn't mean I brand myself to their projects.
Quite a shame it happens to other fanbases alot. Quite annoying, but fanboy/fangurl-ism happens.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Stogi on April 14, 2009, 11:19:43 AM
Kairon's right but only to a point.
Nintendo OWES me. I was there in the beginning, and I will continue to be there as long as they cater to me.
It would be disingenuous if they simply packed there bags up and said "**** YOU STOGI" were done making Zelda, Mario, and Metriod. It's in our best interest to make Magaritaville blenders now.
Yes it's only business and money talks, but there's a commitment to fans that is morally binding.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: UncleBob on April 14, 2009, 11:36:30 AM
Nintendo OWES me. I was there in the beginning, and I will continue to be there as long as they cater to me.
It would be disingenuous if they simply packed there bags up and said "**** YOU STOGI" were done making Zelda, Mario, and Metriod. It's in our best interest to make Magaritaville blenders now.
Yes it's only business and money talks, but there's a commitment to fans that is morally binding.
I think what Stogi is trying to say is Nintendo should never abandon the people that made them money in the first place.
But the fact is, if they hold true to themselves and their original ideals (making money hand over fist, yes, but also by delivering a QUALITY PRODUCT that ANYONE AND EVERYONE can enjoy) they can never 'abandon' a fanbase because they're still doing what they've always done..
Your favorite band signing to a major label doesn't mean they're selling out unless they go from playing underground genre A to mainstream genre B.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Spinnzilla on April 14, 2009, 11:47:26 AM
I personally think Punch-Out!! and Sin & Punishment 2 are two "I'm sorry" letters to the people they disappointed at E3 2008.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Stogi on April 14, 2009, 12:26:47 PM
All I am saying is, don't bite the hand that feeds you.
But you're only feeding them so long as they do things you like. It's not like you're giving them charity or anything.
Let's say Nintendo stayed the course and continued releasing products that catered to your likes. Then, MicroSoft decides *woah* - maybe we should do that! So they start catering to your likes as well - and they start doing a better job than Nintendo.
Would you *not* give MicroSoft money in exchange for making products you like?
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 14, 2009, 12:38:58 PM
All I am saying is, don't bite the hand that feeds you.
But you're only feeding them so long as they do things you like. It's not like you're giving them charity or anything.
Let's say Nintendo stayed the course and continued releasing products that catered to your likes. Then, MicroSoft decides *woah* - maybe we should do that! So they start catering to your likes as well - and they start doing a better job than Nintendo.
Would you *not* give MicroSoft money in exchange for making products you like?
Well ya, as a consumer I would. But that's the point. They need to keep me on there side.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: UncleBob on April 14, 2009, 12:43:54 PM
All I am saying is, don't bite the hand that feeds you.
But you're only feeding them so long as they do things you like. It's not like you're giving them charity or anything.
Let's say Nintendo stayed the course and continued releasing products that catered to your likes. Then, MicroSoft decides *woah* - maybe we should do that! So they start catering to your likes as well - and they start doing a better job than Nintendo.
Would you *not* give MicroSoft money in exchange for making products you like?
Well ya, as a consumer I would. But that's the point. They need to keep me on there side.
Why *you*? If a company could trade you for two other customers, why shouldn't they?
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on April 14, 2009, 12:52:51 PM
Why *you*? If a company could trade you for two other customers, why shouldn't they?
Not arguing either side, but I suppose the answer to that question is because Stogi is a customer who is more likely to continue to purchase products in the future instead of just today.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: UncleBob on April 14, 2009, 12:57:19 PM
But Stogi already said he'd easily give his money to MicroSoft if they started making products he liked better.
Strogi is ready to give his money to whomever makes the better products. Is that really any different than a company designing their products toward whomever gives them the most money?
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on April 14, 2009, 12:59:42 PM
But he also said he will always support Nintendo products as long as they continue to cater to him, which they have historically done.
He didn't say he would stop buying Nintendo products just because Microsoft began to make products he liked as well.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: UncleBob on April 14, 2009, 01:04:23 PM
Money spent on MicroSoft is money not spent on Nintendo.
Should Nintendo make "Products for Strogi" and sell him one for $50 while he buys (and spends time playing) MicroSoft's products as well, or make "Products not for Strogi" and sell four to two people who are only buying products not made for Strogi?
Companies should make products for those who buy them. People should buy products that they like, regardless of what company makes them. Everything works out better this way. Trying to make some kind of relationship that isn't there doesn't help anyone.
And I'm the biggest Nintendo whore there is. If *I* don't think Nintendo owes me anything, why should "you"?
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on April 14, 2009, 01:10:34 PM
No, I don't disagree with you, UncleBob.
But if Stogi is more likely to buy Game A (released today), Game B (released in 3 months), Game C (released in 6 months) and Game D (released in 12 months) based on a history of purchasing Nintendo products, then he has bought four games.
There is no data on the new consumers, and no reason to believe that either of them will buy games B, C or D.
Thus, only two games sold.
So what this comes down to, from my perspective, is that Stogi is a longtime video game purchasing consumer and will continue to buy Nintendo products, even if Nintendo products are not the ONLY video game products he buys.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on April 14, 2009, 01:12:25 PM
And to be fair, I don't think any corporate entity "owes" their customer base. If they choose to change their target consumer, then they risk the consequences if the new strategy doesn't pan out. I'm not convinced that Nintendo's recent change of strategy is best for them in the long term, but I also realize that this opinion is not largely shared amongst the Nintendo fan.
Brand loyalty makes you a blind consumer, but Corporations are wise to recognize that it exists. Apple certainly does, and it's built them a fairly decent sized market for the iPod.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Stogi on April 14, 2009, 01:19:51 PM
I think DrewMG summed up my feelings pretty accurately.
If Nintendo chooses to ignore me, that's fine. Just realize there will be a backlash, not only from me, but from everyone I talk to about Nintendo.
And UB, it's Stogi ;)
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: UncleBob on April 14, 2009, 01:22:37 PM
That's part of the problem. Stogi is only a lifetime gamer. When he dies, he won't be buying any more Nintendo products (unless he's like me and has something set up in his will...)
If Nintendo can make "Product not for Strogi" and sell four times as many as they can for making "Product for Strogi" and just *one* of those new-market gamers stick around, they've already increased their profits.
Now, obviously, the best of both worlds is to release "Product for Strogi" *and* "Product not for Strogi" and sell to both him and the four new customers (Or release "Product for Everyone" and sell one thing to five people), but that's not always possible.
When it comes down to the axe of what to make and what not to make, the company has to crunch all the figures. Loyalty, I'm sure, is one of those figures. Just like when I buy a game - I see crap-THQ title next to Nintendo title. I'm more likely to buy the Nintendo title, because I know they've consistently given me good games. But when I bring up the fact that I don't buy many 3rd party games, people attack me for not supporting the other companies.
If Nintendo only made "Product for Stogi", they'd get attacked (by not selling as much product as they could) by the "not for Stogi" crowd.
>"Brand loyalty makes you a blind consumer, but Corporations are wise to recognize that it exists."
Agreed - but only so far as it's a wise business decision.
Stogi: You should consider adding an R. :p
>"If Nintendo chooses to ignore me, that's fine. Just realize there will be a backlash, not only from me, but from everyone I talk to about Nintendo."
What are you going to say? "Yeah, used to be a Nintendo fan... but then they made games I didn't like. They might stop making games you like too. And give you STDs."?
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on April 14, 2009, 01:26:50 PM
Quote
If Nintendo only made "Product for Stogi", they'd get attacked (by not selling as much product as they could) by the "not for Stogi" crowd.
Well I suppose the difference there is that Stogi, in this scenario, represents the "loyal" customer, and therefore is much more likely to be upset by a lack of titles that appeal to him, than a customer without a history of being loyal to Nintendo.
But overall I think you and I are on the same page.
Brand loyalty is something that must be taken into account when deciding which titles to produce, but from a consumer standpoint, it is irrational and leads to bad decisions.
Even so, I think it's human nature, to some extent, to want to trumpet the things we like as being superior even if we haven't tried everything else. I love my iPhone, and have loved all of my iPods. I will continue buying them. I believe them to be a better purchase for me than another brand of portable media player, yet I haven't tried all the other kinds of MP3 players on the market. I stick with Apple because they have proven that they meet my needs and I am happy with their products.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Stogi on April 14, 2009, 01:34:56 PM
Quote
>"If Nintendo chooses to ignore me, that's fine. Just realize there will be a backlash, not only from me, but from everyone I talk to about Nintendo."
What are you going to say? "Yeah, used to be a Nintendo fan... but then they made games I didn't like. They might stop making games you like too. And give you STDs."?
It's like a pizza joint. If I use to like their pizzas, but now they make disgusting pizzas, I'm going to tell everyone that they make disgusting pizzas. That's why managers are so quick to apologize.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: D_Average on April 14, 2009, 02:33:50 PM
>"If Nintendo chooses to ignore me, that's fine. Just realize there will be a backlash, not only from me, but from everyone I talk to about Nintendo."
What are you going to say? "Yeah, used to be a Nintendo fan... but then they made games I didn't like. They might stop making games you like too. And give you STDs."?
It's like a pizza joint. If I use to like their pizzas, but now they make disgusting pizzas, I'm going to tell everyone that they make disgusting pizzas. That's why managers are so quick to apologize.
Are you referring to Papa Johns? Come on now, they're not so bad, I used to flip pizzas there.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Ian Sane on April 14, 2009, 02:34:52 PM
Technically if you really want to look at it no one owes anyone loyalty REALLY. Your friends, your family, your employer, your spouse, your pets. Anyone can drop you in a second if they choose to and you cannot force them to be loyal. And it goes the same in reverse: no one can truly force you to be loyal. Yeah the law might force you to uphold a contract but even then you can in theory escape the law, though it may not be worth the effort for you do so.
I think loyalty is just one of those things hard-wired into the human brain. It's instinctive to want somebody to be loyal to you and usually the understanding is that to acheive that loyalty one has to be loyal in return. While it may seem silly to apply this to anything but our closest personal relationships, we do it anyway. You see it everywhere. People being loyal to their doctor or their employer or their sports team or a business or a belief. I think part of it is just that we desire loyalty and logically if one is loyal to something there is the assumption that it in turn will be loyal back.
So does my loyalty to Nintendo make sense? Not really. I should be smart enough to recognize that this is a big corporation that only wants my money and I should look out entirely for myself. Still I think it's easy for one to see why I would be loyal or why anyone would be. You can say that Nintendo is free to do whatever they wish, and you're right. But I think it should still be understandable that I would be upset with what I see as them being disloyal to me after I have been loyal to them. Just as it is instinctive to be loyal and expect loyalty in return, it is instinctive to react negatively to disloyalty.
Why do I think Nintendo is disloyal? Because I've been a supportive customer to then for years but they no longer see meeting my needs as a priority. Instead of making a real effort to improve their product for the market I'm in, they decided to focus on a new market entirely. I feel that though they still make games for me I see it largely as a token effort. They are taking advantage of my loyalty and assuming I will continue to support them, despite me not being their focus. All they have to do is throw me a bone once in a while, or so they think. But I think that Nintendo's REAL passion and their REAL interest is in non-games and the blue ocean market. I figure over time as they feel safer with that market their interest in the old market will decrease and eventually disappear. We're being replaced. I know those that don't agree with me don't see it (or choose not to). And at the same time they try to convince me everything is fine and I don't see it and that's probably equally frustrating. But I see I'm not a focus and after supporting them for all these years I think it's fair to be pissed off about that.
Though while my loyalty to Nintendo may seem silly at the very least I have a reason for being loyal. My loyalty was earned by the company making a qualty product that I liked. There are may fans who's loyalty is circular logic. They're loyal to Nintendo because they're loyal to Nintendo. It doesn't matter what Nintendo does, these fans stay loyal as if they have an obligation to. That is crazy. You can't crap on someone expecting loyalty from Nintendo and not crap on those that treat their fandom as if it's a marital vow and that regardless of what the company does and what the company makes they will stay loyal for life.
For those that don't think Nintendo is being disloyal or do not feel that Nintendo owes anyone anything I ask you to put yourself in my shoes and those that share my opinion. If you DID expect Nintendo to be loyal to their customers and felt that they were being disloyal to YOU with their current actions how would YOU feel about it?
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Morari on April 14, 2009, 04:04:16 PM
Being loyal to your employer is almost as dumb as expecting an entertainment company to be loyal to fanboys.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: KDR_11k on April 14, 2009, 04:25:48 PM
I think this whole "I buy many games" talk is just a way for the hardcore gamers to look like they're more important than they are. Hardcore gamers act like they buy many more games than casual gamers and abandoning the hardcore means losing a ton of sales yet in reality Nintendo was suffering badly in the home console market until they started branching out which suggests that there's a lot more money outside the hardcore market than inside. Of course the hardcore brush that off with claims that the new gamers won't buy more than one or two games before running out of attention because they're unsophisticated idiots but the data does not support that claim, the Wii's tie in ratio is not out of the ordinary (and it's better than the DS's yet noone would dare call the DS a fad or resting entirely on a userbase that doesn't buy games).
Additionally talking about Nintendo being disloyal to the hardcore gamers is a whole load of bullshit because they're still making mostly core games. How many Wii games have been aimed specifically at the new market? Did Nintendo do anything besides the Wii X series which has four entries? In comparison, how many core games have they made? They didn't just make the usual Mario, Metroid, Zelda games, they also made a ton of other games like Batallion Wars, Strikers, Excite Truck, Animal Crossing, ... Seriously, claiming that Nintendo no longer makes core games and only makes new market games is a plain lie. Contrast that to:
Why do I think Nintendo is disloyal? Because I've been a supportive customer to then for years but they no longer see meeting my needs as a priority. Instead of making a real effort to improve their product for the market I'm in, they decided to focus on a new market entirely. I feel that though they still make games for me I see it largely as a token effort. They are taking advantage of my loyalty and assuming I will continue to support them, despite me not being their focus. All they have to do is throw me a bone once in a while, or so they think. But I think that Nintendo's REAL passion and their REAL interest is in non-games and the blue ocean market. I figure over time as they feel safer with that market their interest in the old market will decrease and eventually disappear. We're being replaced. I know those that don't agree with me don't see it (or choose not to). And at the same time they try to convince me everything is fine and I don't see it and that's probably equally frustrating. But I see I'm not a focus and after supporting them for all these years I think it's fair to be pissed off about that.
Why in hell's name would Nintendo worry about pissing someone off who gets angry if even a minority of the resources of the company are not focussed at him? This is a tradeoff, either you support the people who demand your whole attention and then still don't buy games or you just go for people who are happy when you offer them a product that's good with no regard for what else you offer. Who would choose to appeal to people who whine about not being the center of your attention and start complaining the minute you sell to anyone but them? Hell, last I checked Ian was complaining back when Nintendo WAS focussing on people like him. Can you seriously fault Nintendo for saying "**** that"? Most of the core market is not this demanding so losing the <1% that is doesn't matter even if you just count the core market.
Besides, Nintendo's mission statement has ALWAYS been "games for everybody", last gen that got ridiculed as boxing them into the kid market, people demanded games for "older" gamers, Nintendo expands to older, mature people and now people whine that Nintendo is being too casual. Well excuuuuuuse me princess but most older people are not devoting a lot of their time to gaming, obviously games for older people have to account for that. Oh wait, you meant "older" as in 12-24 year old gore kiddies. Yeah, that's really a demographic that's been missing... People who define their own maturity by playing gvideogames with things that get rated mature, thereby revealing their own immaturity...
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Stogi on April 14, 2009, 04:33:12 PM
All I'd like to add is this:
There's a reason why I'm loyal. I just don't want Nintendo to ever forget that reason.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on April 14, 2009, 04:36:27 PM
I started typing out a reply to this thread, and then realized that these are the kind of discussions that forced me to stop going to infendo.com. Specifically ones that centered around the guy you're quoting in your sig, KDR_11k.
I really need to stop getting into debates on the internet.
With that, I will leave this thread and stick to ones that don't make me feel like typing for 20 minutes straight.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: EasyCure on April 14, 2009, 04:37:48 PM
Strogi is the reason Nintendo "abandoned" us
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Stogi on April 14, 2009, 04:39:08 PM
Yes, let's go find that bastard Strogi!
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: EasyCure on April 14, 2009, 04:43:55 PM
Specifically ones that centered around the guy you're quoting in your sig, KDR_11k.
Lota is too big for your puny pronouns.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Ian Sane on April 14, 2009, 05:46:59 PM
Quote
Hell, last I checked Ian was complaining back when Nintendo WAS focussing on people like him. Can you seriously fault Nintendo for saying "**** that"?
So the moral of the story is if people criticize you, ignore them and find someone who doesn't? Yeah I was complaining back then because Nintendo was doing a pretty half-assed LOUSY job. It's constructive criticism. On the Cube the third party support was the shits, they lost Rare, they nickle and dimed us for little things like overpriced memory cards, and they provided no online gaming during a time that this was an expected feature and they also LIED about that too, mentioning vague details of some online plan to reveal later only to eventually reveal there was no plan at all.
So what has Nintendo done? Did they address these issues that I had a perfectly VALID reason to complain about? Third party support still sucks and they don't appear to make any effort to address it. They not only haven't replaced Rare but have also now lost Silicon Knights. They still nickle and dime everyone. They do have an online plan now but they do it in a weird ass way (still an improvement I guess). They really have not improved much at all from a core gamer perspective.
And now they have no incentive to improve because they found a market that doesn't care. And it's damn obvious to me that we're a low priority. All we get are sequels while the creative new content is non-gamer based. Last Christmas we were expected to make do with a non-game and a glorified remake of a game we already had on the Cube (which Nintendo of course passed off as a new game). Since then we've had to make due with, surprise, MORE remakes of games we already had on the Cube. Of course Nintendo doesn't care because the market they're truly focused on didn't buy a Cube. A lot of you saw Punch-Out and S&P 2 as Nintendo expressing commitment to core gamers. I don't see that. Since those titles are not handled by Nintendo's top first party devs I see them as secondary titles - token efforts to appear to appeal to core gamers and most of your reactions to it is EXACTLY what they were hoping for.
I get accused of complaining but what I was complaining about on the Cube has not been addressed by Nintendo. So should I stop? Does the fact that they regained the top spot by targeting a group with lower standards somehow make that all okay? I became a Nintendo fan for a reason. They started really screwing up and making it much harder to remain a fan but because they still made really great games I stayed loyal and gave them a chance next gen. But I feel they have taken that loyalty for granted since they have found success with a new market and have made no real effort to improve from a core gamer perspective. They appear to not care as long as the non-gamers make them rich.
Disagree all you want. I know most of you do. But that's how I see it and if you saw it the same way you would feel the same way I do and understand why I feel that way.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Adrock on April 14, 2009, 06:36:06 PM
I tend to gravitate toward Nintendo games/hardware because they meet my needs. I like Nintendo as a developer and I can only get their games on Nintendo hardware. I wouldn't call that brand loyalty. I'll take fun wherever I can get it.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Stogi on April 14, 2009, 07:11:00 PM
Dude this **** is ridonkulous.
Anyone that posts on a Nintendo forum is loyal to the brand.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: EasyCure on April 14, 2009, 07:14:15 PM
For those that don't think Nintendo is being disloyal or do not feel that Nintendo owes anyone anything I ask you to put yourself in my shoes and those that share my opinion. If you DID expect Nintendo to be loyal to their customers and felt that they were being disloyal to YOU with their current actions how would YOU feel about it?
So long as one thinks Nintendo owes you nothing, your question fails. Put yourself in my shoes - Let's say I expect Nintendo to fly me to Japan, wine and dine me and give me a tour of their Japanese HQ and free games - how would you feel if it was you who expected this and Nintendo wasn't providing it?
They're a company. Period. Anyone who's expecting to have a personal relationship with a multi-billion dollar international company is setting themselves up for fail.
You buy a $50 game from Nintendo and Nintendo gives you a $50 game. End of transaction.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: D_Average on April 14, 2009, 11:48:44 PM
Anyone who's expecting to have a personal relationship with a multi-billion dollar international company is setting themselves up for fail.
Not so. I DO have a "personal relationship" with Nintendo. I invited them into my home in 1985 and ever since then, they've spoken to me through their turtle shells and question marks. Ask them, and you shall indeed receive those trips to Nintendo HQ's.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: KDR_11k on April 15, 2009, 06:35:46 AM
Anyone who's expecting to have a personal relationship with a multi-billion dollar international company is setting themselves up for fail.
Not so. I DO have a "personal relationship" with Nintendo. I invited them into my home in 1985 and ever since then, they've spoken to me through their turtle shells and question marks. Ask them, and you shall indeed receive those trips to Nintendo HQ's.
I *have* asked - and was turned down. :p
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: EasyCure on April 15, 2009, 10:23:44 AM
Anyone who's expecting to have a personal relationship with a multi-billion dollar international company is setting themselves up for fail.
Not so. I DO have a "personal relationship" with Nintendo. I invited them into my home in 1985 and ever since then, they've spoken to me through their turtle shells and question marks. Ask them, and you shall indeed receive those trips to Nintendo HQ's.
I *have* asked - and was turned down. :p
Its true, Nintendo is even on a first name basis with Richard
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: UncleBob on April 15, 2009, 10:47:07 AM
Anyone who's expecting to have a personal relationship with a multi-billion dollar international company is setting themselves up for fail.
Not so. I DO have a "personal relationship" with Nintendo. I invited them into my home in 1985 and ever since then, they've spoken to me through their turtle shells and question marks. Ask them, and you shall indeed receive those trips to Nintendo HQ's.
I *have* asked - and was turned down. :p
Its true, Nintendo is even on a first name basis with Richard
True. They even have a picture of my foot floating around their offices.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: EasyCure on April 15, 2009, 11:04:04 AM
Anyone who's expecting to have a personal relationship with a multi-billion dollar international company is setting themselves up for fail.
Not so. I DO have a "personal relationship" with Nintendo. I invited them into my home in 1985 and ever since then, they've spoken to me through their turtle shells and question marks. Ask them, and you shall indeed receive those trips to Nintendo HQ's.
I *have* asked - and was turned down. :p
Its true, Nintendo is even on a first name basis with Richard
True. They even have a picture of my moist man-nipple floating around their offices.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: UncleBob on April 15, 2009, 11:13:07 AM
Anyone who's expecting to have a personal relationship with a multi-billion dollar international company is setting themselves up for fail.
Not so. I DO have a "personal relationship" with Nintendo. I invited them into my home in 1985 and ever since then, they've spoken to me through their turtle shells and question marks. Ask them, and you shall indeed receive those trips to Nintendo HQ's.
I *have* asked - and was turned down. :p
Its true, Nintendo is even on a first name basis with Richard
True. They even have a picture of my moist man-nipple floating around their offices.
Well, who doesn't have that?
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 01, 2009, 01:20:08 AM
You can hold true to MY ASS
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Mop it up on July 01, 2009, 01:34:33 AM
The best thing to do with a SpamBot is just report it without posting. That way once its post is deleted, the topic will return to the depths of the forum.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 01, 2009, 01:40:14 AM
That absolutely does not quench my thirst.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on July 01, 2009, 09:04:20 AM
Sorry to spoil your LULZ bash party pro.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: BranDonk Kong on July 01, 2009, 11:52:19 PM
*bump*
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Mop it up on July 02, 2009, 01:22:00 AM
Stop it.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Ymeegod on July 10, 2009, 03:38:25 PM
Well anyway back to the main topic.
My gripe with Big N is the support. It not like they don't have the money to invest into more development teams (think they netted 2.8 billion last year alone) and hardware. The WII is way underpowered from what it should have been (hell if you recall the inital plan was calling for Hollywood graphics hense the codeword for the chipset). Less powerfully chipset did lower production costs but Big N could have gone with the same route as MS or Sony and sell the console at a loss and making it up with software. I don't expect them to come out with state-of-the-art equipment but they should have made it powerful enough to compete with the existing 360 which was already out for one year. Now developers can't even port games over the the WII which spending Extra to get it working on the system if they can even. So in the end gamers lose out and either had to buy another console or miss out alot of great games. Strike 1.
Same with software, I don't fault them for targeting this new market of gamers but Big N still has a HUGE warchest (6 billion or so now) so why can't they invest some of that money. The WII suffers the most it's poor selection of games enough though there's 1000+ titles now. What I believe Big N should do is focus some of it's millions to genes that the WII lacks, namely RPGs, Action, and Strategy. They don't have to develope the games themselves but maybe help with the developement costs, ads, ect for the 3rd parties that target this area. I still can't believe the lack of strategy games on the WII--a console with a pointer finally and yet the 360 still getting them? As for RPG's, nintendo hasn't done Sh!T in this area for a decade and it continues. Yeah, they patched up with Square but so far FFCC is an utter joke and Big N doesn't even have Western developers at all? And for Action games, they do have a few but they haven't sold all that well I think Big N should do more to market these games. it wouldn't be to hard to throw around a few demo disks or even a channel like they said they were going to do to get most of these games out to the casual gamer. Mad World is a great example of this. Sad it didn't sell well. Strike 2
Internet, damn it still pisses me off after all these years that Big N refuses the whole modern day of gaming and it's not because of costs neither. The friends list code and all that junk feels like two steps back, Big N should have just copy MS with Live (hell MS copied it anyhow so why not). How many more year before I get my dream game. Mario Kart with mod kit--designing your our tracks, carts, characters and showing them online. I'll give my left testie for that. :( Already sold my right.
So really I just dislike them for pinching pennies when they have BILLIONS. Throw that money back into my HOBBY.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Mop it up on July 10, 2009, 08:22:30 PM
Nintendo have always been conservative and probably viewed the Wii as a bit of a gamble. They didn't want to invest too much money into its development in the off chance that it failed. Now that they've regained the number-one position and know that their strategy works then perhaps we'll see them invest more into their next system.
That's what I'd hope for anyway, though knowing Nintendo as I do I'm not expecting much.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Deguello on July 10, 2009, 10:46:21 PM
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My gripe with Big N is the support. It not like they don't have the money to invest into more development teams (think they netted 2.8 billion last year alone) and hardware.
Actually they made about $5.7 billion last year.
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The WII is way underpowered from what it should have been (hell if you recall the inital plan was calling for Hollywood graphics hense the codeword for the chipset). Less powerfully chipset did lower production costs but Big N could have gone with the same route as MS or Sony and sell the console at a loss and making it up with software.
And that's working so well for them, isn't it? (Hint, no it's not)
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Same with software, I don't fault them for targeting this new market of gamers but Big N still has a HUGE warchest (6 billion or so now) so why can't they invest some of that money.
Actually if you are counting their total profits, since 1998, they've squirreled away about $20-$21 billion in profit.
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As for RPG's, nintendo hasn't done Sh!T in this area for a decade and it continues.
Uhhh, Nintendo got Dragon Quest X. That's major at least for Japan. And snagged the next Tales release, just because they are the market leader. But sure they don't have all those games Microsoft doled out moneyhats for Like Star Ocean and Lost Odyssey and whatnot, but most of those games didn't sell well either. It's not Nintendo's fault third parties want a bribe more than acting in their own self-interest and making games for the market leader. How are you supposed to reason with a company that would rather choose death than to make Wii games?
One thing you have to remember is that businesses can turn very slowly. A Lot of the great support that the 360 got is stuff that was hammered out in 2005-2007, when everybody was making waggle jokes and saying casual this and casual that. I'm sure Nintendo's got some big tech coming in the future, but they aren't going to sink $6 billion like MS or sink $5 billion Like Sony just to win the enthusiast press sites, all the while increasing console and game prices and making this the most expensive Generation since the CD-I-3DO era. Either the third parties will come around, or they won't and die. It's their choice and their decision to take Nintendo's offer, not Nintendo's.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Ymeegod on July 22, 2009, 12:12:13 PM
"Either the third parties will come around, or they won't and die."
But that's kinda the point. If the WII was as powerful as the 360 at least then the developers could have ported their games from one platform to another. There's alot of titles that are multiplatform that didn't get ported to the WII simply because of this fact. So who loses? Big N? Nope, just the WII gamers who either have to buy another system or miss out of great hits. Again, Nintendo could have taken a loss on hardware and make it up on sales.
As far RPGs yeah I know about those titles coming out but that's kinda the moot point isn't it--they're not out now and they few RPG's they released so far have been pretty damn crappy. I've played just about all of them as well and I'll take either SO 4 and Lost Odyssey over them anyhow. And that still leaves out western style RPG's as well.
BTW Deguello do you own another system as well? As I see it the WII is not a standalone system which COULD have easily been fixed if nintendo either developed or purchased genres where it's weakest.
What I would do if I was Big N?
I'll do more co-developed games with other studios. Worked great so far? Recall Fzero GX, or all those Flagships Zelda titles and now Metroid Other M. This not only worked free up Big N own developers but gives the fans titles to play. Everyone wins (well as long as not another Star Fox misstep)
2. I'll buy some western support to target both WRPGs&MMO. Not to mention more action games. They bought Retro years ago and it worked out well for them. Free Radical, Mythic Entertainment, ect. were all up on the market awhile back and again they have some talent that could have been bought for cheap. It's a great time to expand--everyone needs money and Big N has a full vault.
3. Get a real Online plan. Just copy what is already out.
4. Change the bundle already. I'm almost shocked Big N didn't push a WII Sports Resort package? Could easily sold another 1/2 million consoles per month but they didn't.
5. Go all the way with WII edu software. WII Fit isn't to bad but where's the Fit Channel? Same with the DS cooking title. Great piece of software but why isn't there a cooking channel? Or why not a WII cooking title? I wouldn't love it because the existing DS hardware limited the recipes to only 250 alot of my fav's weren't even on it. Imagine unlimted recipes, ect. Nintendo's made a great start but it needs to finish it now. :)
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Deguello on July 22, 2009, 05:07:30 PM
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But that's kinda the point. If the WII was as powerful as the 360 at least then the developers could have ported their games from one platform to another. There's alot of titles that are multiplatform that didn't get ported to the WII simply because of this fact. So who loses? Big N? Nope, just the WII gamers who either have to buy another system or miss out of great hits. Again, Nintendo could have taken a loss on hardware and make it up on sales.
Because that's working so well for Microsoft and Sony, right? (Wrong, they've lost billions this generation.) If anything Nintendo's making sure video games at least stay profitable enough to be taken seriously as a business. If it were not for Nintendo, the video game market would have crashed this generation under the crushing weight of massive losses. And How is all this Nintendo's fault? Shouldn't third parties WANT to support the market leader? That was ALL that was on their lips last generation.
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BTW Deguello do you own another system as well?
No, they are still too expensive. Really wish Microsoft kept prices under control instead of just ramping them up so they could try in vain to show a profit in video games for once.
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What I would do if I was Big N?
Oh boy...
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I'll do more co-developed games with other studios. Worked great so far? Recall Fzero GX, or all those Flagships Zelda titles and now Metroid Other M. This not only worked free up Big N own developers but gives the fans titles to play. Everyone wins (well as long as not another Star Fox misstep)
Or it could HAMPER Nintendo's devs because "co-developing" in third parties' terms means "Nintendo develops it and we take a cut." Just like Dragon Quest Swords, which, while a Square enix game, was developed by Nintendo developer Genius Sonority. So Nintendo ends up wasting resources and dev time on things third parties should be doing anyway.
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2. I'll buy some western support to target both WRPGs&MMO. Not to mention more action games. They bought Retro years ago and it worked out well for them. Free Radical, Mythic Entertainment, ect. were all up on the market awhile back and again they have some talent that could have been bought for cheap. It's a great time to expand--everyone needs money and Big N has a full vault.
MMOs haven't really been demonstrated as a success on consoles yet. That would just be a money sink and a developer sink to develop a pointless MMO, especially in a WoW dominated market. And just buying people wouldn't do anything if all these third parties are hostile to Nintendo anyway. Their employees would juts leave the company. It's what happened when MS bought Rare. Now they have an unprofitable turkey that they bought just for name recognition.
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3. Get a real Online plan. Just copy what is already out.
Nintendo's online plan is simple and free, and just what the doctor ordered to people who were hostile to online gaming before (like myself.) MS's setup is fine and all, but it's still a drag on their profits which means either the price will go up or it'll have it's features ramped back. But either way, it hasn't really grown the market or MS's position, whereas Nintendo's Online Plan as a part of their overall console strategy has led to their console selling faster than the PS2.
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4. Change the bundle already. I'm almost shocked Big N didn't push a WII Sports Resort package? Could easily sold another 1/2 million consoles per month but they didn't.
Maybe they should wait until their sales drop below their competitors or they stop selling faster than the PS2? Just a thought. (A profite-yielded, not-losing-money-to-please-Ymeegod thought)
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5. Go all the way with WII edu software. WII Fit isn't to bad but where's the Fit Channel? Same with the DS cooking title. Great piece of software but why isn't there a cooking channel? Or why not a WII cooking title? I wouldn't love it because the existing DS hardware limited the recipes to only 250 alot of my fav's weren't even on it. Imagine unlimted recipes, ect. Nintendo's made a great start but it needs to finish it now.
A cooking Channel is a bad idea. The DS cookbook thing is meant for the DS because it's small enough to be in the kitchen while you cook. And how would filling an over-saturated market be profitable? You don't seem to get this idea of profit, do you?
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Ymeegod on July 26, 2009, 03:03:16 PM
Saddly, you miss the entire point.
All you talk about is profit but my point is why isn't Big N throwing MY money back into MY Fav hobby? I'm the customer so i should get what I want.
MS's losing tons of money due to faulty hardware, not because the software isn't up to par. Sony's losing money not from the PS3 but from it's other divisions (TV & Laptops ect).
And you missed my point about co-developing games--Big N was going be the supervisor and I gave great results (Fzero GX, Zelda's GBA games) . You're example was a 2nd party devleoper and a rather poor one at that. The only 2nd parties that could be trusted on their own might be camelot and hal IMO. The only title that suffered from this arrangement was poor ole starfox (Starfox Assault).
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Mop it up on July 26, 2009, 03:59:06 PM
but my point is why isn't Big N throwing MY money back into MY Fav hobby? I'm the customer so i should get what I want.
Because you're not Nintendo's only customer, they have 50 million others. You already got what you wanted when you purchased the games you own, and if you don't like Nintendo's current products then go find something offered by someone else. Nintendo doesn't owe you anything, stop treating a business relationship like a personal relationship.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Ymeegod on July 31, 2009, 02:27:35 PM
"Nintendo's only customer" Duh I guess I wouldn't guess that.
And I do own other consoles (actually own them all but the DSI) and that's kinda my point. If Big N wants to be king it has to have the software to go with it, right now the X360 still leads even though it doesn't lead in sales. 50 million users don't mean jack when there's not alot of software to back it up--the Gamecube actually had more titles in the 80% range in the first two years compared to the WII. As I addressed there's alot of reasons for this (hardware limitations preventing ports ect) and how to correct the issue.
"Nintendo doesn't owe you anything" Never said they do but if you want customer loyalty you should support the people who got you where you are today am I right? I still enjoy their products don't get me wrong but if they want me to go exclusive then they're going have to deliever on their end--I need games to play.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 31, 2009, 02:41:28 PM
"support the people who got you where you are today am I right?"
That's right. Children and families.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Deguello on August 03, 2009, 06:15:50 AM
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MS's losing tons of money due to faulty hardware, not because the software isn't up to par. Sony's losing money not from the PS3 but from it's other divisions (TV & Laptops ect).
Sony just this quarter announced a $416 million loss in their Games Division. Please come equipped with data next time.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 04, 2009, 07:22:04 AM
No, they are still too expensive. Really wish Microsoft kept prices under control instead of just ramping them up so they could try in vain to show a profit in video games for once.
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4. Change the bundle already. I'm almost shocked Big N didn't push a WII Sports Resort package? Could easily sold another 1/2 million consoles per month but they didn't.
Maybe they should wait until their sales drop below their competitors or they stop selling faster than the PS2? Just a thought. (A profite-yielded, not-losing-money-to-please-Ymeegod thought)
The xbox360 is $200 now which is cheaper than a Wii. The PS3 can be had for $250 if you sign up for a credit card from Sonystyle.com. That's not factoring the fact that a Wii controller costs $60 versus the $40 from the competitors and you'll need an SD card for the Wii if you plan to utilize the download service at all. If your a Nintendo fanatic and need everything Nintendo, the Wii is a good console, but value wise, I have a hard time reccomending the Wii over the PS3 at this point. At the beginning when the PS3 was $600 it was a no brainer. But now that the market is so segmented I feel the PS3 is a better overall value and really can be had for the same price of the Wii (less if you factor controllers/storage).
The thing that annoys me about the Wii is since they are making money, they should use enough of it to make the Wii a better product. I'm glad I bought a Wii, but in many respects I liked the gamecube better and if I recently bought a Wii I'd feel like I got ripped off. $250 for 8 year old hardware is not a good deal. Luckily I bought it at launch when I felt the overall package was worth $250 at the time. There were some third party games that actually tried on the gamecube as well. I'm a big fan of Remake, Metal Gear, Timesplitters, etc. Some of those games held their own particularly against the xbox, but also somewhat against the bohemoth that was the PS2.
The other problem that annoys me is there was a time last generation where PS2 just took off and owned the market. Most developers look at the market as PS3/Xbox360 vs. Wii. They do this because the graphics/controls are so different. So you'll see either a Wii only game (usually with wonky controls) or a PS3/Xbox360 game which highlights graphics/physics. Typically the better games have gone xbox360/PS3. When you look at NPD/etc. It usually details the Wii owning 40-50% of the market. Now this is clearly good especially coming from the gamecube which owned like 12%. But the PS2 ended around 65-70%. If the Wii tried with a price drop of only $50 and maybe buying a big exclusive game could they push to the 65-70% range? We'll never know because Nintendo is glued to short term profits that they don't realize that they risk turning off consumers in the future. It's hard to say with certainty, but next generation when the 360/PS3 siblings have great graphics, new control schemes, and still have the third party dominance (since Wii isn't buildng bridges with developers) we'll see how well Nintendo does when people aren't caught off gaurd by innovative controls.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Deguello on August 04, 2009, 09:53:37 AM
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The xbox360 is $200 now which is cheaper than a Wii. The PS3 can be had for $250 if you sign up for a credit card from Sonystyle.com. That's not factoring the fact that a Wii controller costs $60 versus the $40 from the competitors and you'll need an SD card for the Wii if you plan to utilize the download service at all.
I'm not going to argue prices with you, mainly because the $200 Xbox 360 is that totally stripped down version, and you keep talking about accessories like the 360 and PS3 don't have them.
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If the Wii tried with a price drop of only $50 and maybe buying a big exclusive game could they push to the 65-70% range? We'll never know because Nintendo is glued to short term profits that they don't realize that they risk turning off consumers in the future.
Could you explain this in detail? I don't see how lots of people buying the Wii at the current price means they should drop it and how it would risk turning off anybody. And LOL short term profits. This isn't a charity, guy.
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It's hard to say with certainty, but next generation when the 360/PS3 siblings have great graphics, new control schemes, and still have the third party dominance (since Wii isn't buildng bridges with developers) we'll see how well Nintendo does when people aren't caught off gaurd by innovative controls.
Didn't Sony already try a motion control thing? Didn't it suck so bad people forgot it existed which helped them pitch their Wii knockoff this year? Do you really think all those current 360 owners even like the prospect of Natal? Do you think all those third parties who spent this whole generation knocking motion controls are going to be able to just magically adapt when Sony and MS force them to use motion controls? This isn't so simple as it looks, dude. Better graphics doesn't = TEH WIN, because that would mean the PS3 and 360 would be tops and Wii would be in the pit. And to be honest, Nintendo can get all the graphical specs the 360 has and then some for bargain basement prices right now. If anything it's MS and Sony who are painted into a corner because they really can't advance graphics further than TVs can display or even customers can appreciably discern.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 04, 2009, 12:00:33 PM
The xbox360 is $200 now which is cheaper than a Wii. The PS3 can be had for $250 if you sign up for a credit card from Sonystyle.com. That's not factoring the fact that a Wii controller costs $60 versus the $40 from the competitors and you'll need an SD card for the Wii if you plan to utilize the download service at all.
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I'm not going to argue prices with you, mainly because the $200 Xbox 360 is that totally stripped down version, and you keep talking about accessories like the 360 and PS3 don't have them.
Last year, the pro 360 was $250 with 2 games during the holidays. Your going to see the same thing this holiday. And the accessories do cost more with the Wii. And there is no player choice titles for the Wii. Yeah, some third parties drop their cost, but on the 360/PS3 you can get almost every title for a significant discount within a year of release. You don't want to argue this because it's very easy to see that the Wii is at least in the same price range and most likely more $ for most people. I also like it that since the arcade xbox only comes with 512 mb of memory it's stripped down. What other system comes with that much memory?
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If the Wii tried with a price drop of only $50 and maybe buying a big exclusive game could they push to the 65-70% range? We'll never know because Nintendo is glued to short term profits that they don't realize that they risk turning off consumers in the future.
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Could you explain this in detail? I don't see how lots of people buying the Wii at the current price means they should drop it and how it would risk turning off anybody. And LOL short term profits. This isn't a charity, guy.
Yes, laugh at me if you will. The Wii sold over 5 million in the first quarter of 08. They sold just 2.23 million in the first quarter of 09. They are getting close to saturation at this price point. While Wii came out of the blocks faster than the PS2, the PS2 never saw a decrease like that. So if Nintendo is happy because they are making money fine. But they could of sold 5 million this first quarter. They'd need to work with price to do it. And there is the whole issue of economies of scale. Nintendo has enough manufacturing capability to supply 5 million Wii's but they are only selling 2 million. This means plant closures and increased parts cost for them.
I never said it was a charity, I'm happy they print money. I'll have endless Mario sequels now. But with increased HD adoption, and cheaper HD consoles consumers could start turning to the PS3 and 360. If that happens they'll be hard to get back. I know this company that paid millions of dollars to a supplier to keep them happy. Without going into too much detail they had a contract tied to an indice that was grossly increasing and paid in arrears. So they were paying well below market value for the product and charging their customers based on the increasing indices. The company could have stuck it to them and said you signed the contract it's our money now. But they didn't want to go with another supplier so they evened up with them. Nintendo is walking that fine line by keeping prices high and eventually having consumers turn on them. It's alot harder to get a customer back then it is to keep them.
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It's hard to say with certainty, but next generation when the 360/PS3 siblings have great graphics, new control schemes, and still have the third party dominance (since Wii isn't building bridges with developers) we'll see how well Nintendo does when people aren't caught off guard by innovative controls.
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Didn't Sony already try a motion control thing? Didn't it suck so bad people forgot it existed which helped them pitch their Wii knockoff this year? Do you really think all those current 360 owners even like the prospect of Natal? Do you think all those third parties who spent this whole generation knocking motion controls are going to be able to just magically adapt when Sony and MS force them to use motion controls? This isn't so simple as it looks, dude. Better graphics doesn't = TEH WIN, because that would mean the PS3 and 360 would be tops and Wii would be in the pit. And to be honest, Nintendo can get all the graphical specs the 360 has and then some for bargain basement prices right now. If anything it's MS and Sony who are painted into a corner because they really can't advance graphics further than TVs can display or even customers can appreciably discern.
Didn't Nintendo try the motion thing before and it stunk (Power Glove)? Technology changes. You see what Sony and MS want you to see right now. I'm sure there is alot going on behind closed doors and alot of $ being spent on those techs. Just like Nintendo and IBM's new agreement which is sure to be the HD console from Nintendo. We'll see what everyone has in store for the next generation soon enough. I'm just saying that Nintendo caught Sony and Microsoft with their pants down on the motion controlled thing. They are not going to underestimate Nintendo next time or the market of casual gamers.
Also just to clarify, I don't think this is all a price issue. I think they should drop their price on the Wii $50 for the holiday season. This would offset the likely price decreases for PS3/Xbox360 and keep Wii in the forefront. The thing that makes me more upset is the fact that Nintendo is adamant against deals. Why is there not a player's choice? Every Nintendo console has had one. And why aren't they willing to work more with developers. Maybe GTA 4 could have been on the Wii as well if Nintendo would of gone to TT and said, "Hey we know you've never had a GTA on a Nintendo console before. If you do GTA 4 we will waive the licensing costs (approximately $12 a copy)." That wouldn't have cost them anything and would have put an end to this hardcore games don't sell on the Wii crap. But no special deals for anyone.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Nick DiMola on August 04, 2009, 01:04:56 PM
Why would Nintendo do special deals like that? Who cares if GTA IV comes to the Wii. Nintendo sure doesn't if it'll cost them money.
If Wii sales were really sagging this would be a different story, but even in their decline Wiis are still selling like hotcakes.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 04, 2009, 03:19:14 PM
Why would Nintendo do special deals like that? Who cares if GTA IV comes to the Wii. Nintendo sure doesn't if it'll cost them money.
If Wii sales were really sagging this would be a different story, but even in their decline Wiis are still selling like hotcakes.
Therein lies the problem. It wouldn't cost Nintendo money because to give them a break on licensing fees. The alternative is there is no GTA IV on the Wii. 10 million in sales says alot of people do care if GTA IV is on the Wii.
Nintendo doesn't have to do anything. It's just me as a consumer would like to see some non-Nintendo AAA games. But I guess I can because I own a PS3. They won't be coming to the Wii. Not because the Wii isn't a capable console, but because that's the Nintendo runs business. The Wii is good for Nintendo first party games and the few motion control games that are good. My problem is that it could be good for alot more. Those 10 millino GTA owners may own a Wii but the Wii will never be enough for them. I don't even like GTA, but I can't stand missing all the great third party games that the Wii will never have.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 04, 2009, 03:34:30 PM
If Take Two doesn't have the heart to "do Wii," to take advantage of "Wii," who cares. You're right, Nintendo doesn't have to do anything. It's on Take Two. We'll leave Take Two to take the initiative on their own, allow them the opportunity to make a Wii GTA that doesn't threaten the company's own financials. It'll be a good challenge for them.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 04, 2009, 03:50:09 PM
Most businesses collaborate to get a better product and try to maximize the value to the customer. I feel like Nintendo is doing neither. That was just an example with GTA. But there's a way their to pad both TT's and Nintendo's wallet. But Nintendo would never approach them with a deal. Everything has to be Nintendo's way when you work with them. Maybe that makes them alot of dough, but it's not very consumer friendly and my guess is Nintendo doesn't pull the repeat in the console wars. Because if Nintendo doesn't come out with the WOW factor in the hardware, they won't have the best game selection to help them out. Everyone should be priced closer together next time as well.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Stogi on August 04, 2009, 04:00:04 PM
No offense, but what a stupid argument.
Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.
It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 04, 2009, 04:16:31 PM
"Maybe that makes them alot of dough, but it's not very consumer friendly"
I thought we were talking about Nintendo. Being consumer friendly made them a lot of dough (step back and rethink whom "consumers" encompasses).
"Because if Nintendo doesn't come out with the WOW factor in the hardware, they won't have the best game selection to help them out."
Help them do what? Do more than dominate the industry? This handheld white plastic hardware thing people got to swing around had plenty of WOW factor for *customers.*
"Everyone should be priced closer together next time as well."
$300-close so that the system makers do what Nintendo successfully already demonstrated? Or $600-close to threaten the prosperity of the industry? Pick one that's going to lose the WOW-hardware factor. The other one will lose its WOW factor for exceeding the value of my monthly rent.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 04, 2009, 04:51:32 PM
Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.
It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?
No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain? The loser isn't Nintendo when a third party game doesn't come to their system. It's you the consumer.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 04, 2009, 04:53:55 PM
Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.
It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?
No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain?
Losing money on HD consoles.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Stogi on August 04, 2009, 05:02:17 PM
Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.
It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?
No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain? The loser isn't Nintendo when a third party game doesn't come to their system. It's you the consumer.
No, the loser is you specifically. I have plenty of games with my only deterrent from buying more games is having them get less than the attention they deserve due to my backlog.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 04, 2009, 05:02:53 PM
"Maybe that makes them alot of dough, but it's not very consumer friendly"
I thought we were talking about Nintendo. Being consumer friendly made them a lot of dough (step back and rethink whom "consumers" encompasses).
"Because if Nintendo doesn't come out with the WOW factor in the hardware, they won't have the best game selection to help them out."
Help them do what? Do more than dominate the industry? This handheld white plastic hardware thing people got to swing around had plenty of WOW factor for *customers.*
"Everyone should be priced closer together next time as well."
$300-close so that the system makers do what Nintendo successfully already demonstrated? Or $600-close to threaten the prosperity of the industry? Pick one that's going to lose the WOW-hardware factor. The other one will lose its WOW factor for exceeding the value of my monthly rent.
They were consumer friendly in the fact that Wii Sports and WiiFit have tapped into a new market. Sony and Microsoft are certainly not going to let them run free next gen since they've seen all the money that is in play.
I'm just saying the difference between failure (gamecube) and success (Wii) are not that big. What were the big games on the gamecube? Mario, Zelda, Metroid. What are the big games on the Wii? Mario, Zelda, Metroid. The control thing was genius but I look at the failure of Sony, Microsoft as an equal reason the Wii is leading. They missed a competitive pricepoint and they suffered because of it. Most of their big games were pushed way back and they completely ignored the casual market.
With the Wii, Nintendo is going back to SNES to Genesis domination, not PS1 or PS2 domination. They are hardly gauranteed to dominate another round of consoles. In fact the 360 routinely outsells the Wii in software questioning domination to begin with.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 04, 2009, 05:04:46 PM
Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.
It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?
No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain?
Losing money on HD consoles.
Or they could be Sega and EA losing money on the Wii.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 04, 2009, 05:06:13 PM
Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.
It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?
No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain? The loser isn't Nintendo when a third party game doesn't come to their system. It's you the consumer.
No, the loser is you specifically. I have plenty of games with my only deterrent from buying more games is having them get less than the attention they deserve due to my backlog.
No need to be rude. I'm not the loser because I am a multi console owner and your right, most people don't have enough time to play the games that they do have. But you can't tell me you like not even having the choice of trying some of the so called epic games.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Stogi on August 04, 2009, 05:08:26 PM
I am mad as **** at third parties and the general Nintendo bias. That's entirely different though.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 04, 2009, 05:14:21 PM
Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.
It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?
No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain?
Losing money on HD consoles.
Or they could be Sega and EA losing money on the Wii.
Yeah that Tiger Woods 10 bombed big time. EA has done perfectly fine on Wii except for a couple of games. They don't need to sell 1 million units or so like HD consoles for a game to be profitable.
Sega has really had 1 failure on Wii, that was Madworld, HOTD:O was profitable and it appears Conduit is on the way to being profitable as well. Not to mention Sonic and the Secret Rings did very well.
Have Sega and EA been hugely successful on Wii? Nah but I believe they've been profitable. At least on Wii smaller developers can take a risk without worrying about going bankrupt if it bombs.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 04, 2009, 05:19:38 PM
I am mad as **** at third parties and the general Nintendo bias. That's entirely different though.
See I don't think it is though. Nintendo has loads of money. Why can't they collaborate with third parties to bring good games to it? It's a win/win. They break the argument that certain games aren't for their system, they are considered an elite console, and the end consumer is happier. That also = more $ for Nintendo. Your right, in the fact that for most people one console and whatever games they get are enough. Well, I'm a Nintendo fanboy. Nintendo systems all the way. Then in Gamecube era I tried an xbox and I wasn't a fan so I sold the xbox. Then with the Wii I tried the PS3 and I really liked it alot. I have spent more $ on the PS3 than the Wii. So yes, I know everyone is not me, but Nintendo could have kept me exclusive. I wasn't naturally promiscuous.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Plugabugz on August 04, 2009, 05:30:38 PM
This gen, even more than ever, its about finding the magic formula that makes you moneyhats. Trying to do that on Wii is like trying to tightrope across two passenger jets at 40,000 feet. Not the easiest thing to do in between 500mph airspeeds, air turbulence and suffocation to deal with.
Majesco worked it out. Sega is trying the same thing albeit differently.... so it stands to reason all they have to do is make/publish more of them to turn a profit? Lots of little profit = big profit?
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 04, 2009, 05:43:16 PM
Your basically saying that Nintendo has done nothing to bring in third party games when they've done the most important thing of all: DOMINATE THE MARKET.
It's Third Parties that are missing out on a financial opportunity. Why should Nintendo whore themselves out when they can sit back on a throne and laugh?
No offense, but where are the third party games if Nintendo has fulfilled their side of the bargain?
Losing money on HD consoles.
Or they could be Sega and EA losing money on the Wii.
Yeah that Tiger Woods 10 bombed big time. EA has done perfectly fine on Wii except for a couple of games. They don't need to sell 1 million units or so like HD consoles for a game to be profitable.
Sega has really had 1 failure on Wii, that was Madworld, HOTD:O was profitable and it appears Conduit is on the way to being profitable as well. Not to mention Sonic and the Secret Rings did very well.
EA had it's best Wii quarter ever with EA active, Tiger Woods, Boom Blox, etc. and it doubled it's Q1 loss from the Prior year. That's also with Sims 3 selling 3.7 M copies. http://microsoft-news.tmcnet.com/news/2009/08/04/4308027.htm
Sega the same thing http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=19145. Sega is one of the few publishers to give the Wii their best software.
This leads me to two believes. A. That most software companies are too highly leveraged and will lose money no matter what.
But B. The best route of some software is to not put it on the Wii.
It's easy to say the Wii is much cheaper to develop for so they have to sell less, but the reality is that PS3 + xbox360 user base >Wii. By bundling those two together you don't have 2x the costs of the Wii because it's easy to port between them. You don't get scaleable costs to port to Wii because of how different it is. PS3 + Xbox360 have a track record of selling games such as those. I.E. you build it they will come. If someone wants to try out an RE5 type game they probably already have a PS3 or 360 because the Wii (unless you count the remake of RE4) doesn't have a game that's similiar. So I would be willing to believe that some of companies have a Wii aversion, but at some point you'd think the Wii would get AAA games and that hasn't happened. I think it's Nintendo's time to man up and get us some of those games or your just going to see this perpetuate on future Nintendo systems.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 04, 2009, 08:25:14 PM
Nintendo is pretty much always going to go for the option that makes them the most money and I don't think there's a way to get third parties on board that fits that description which means it's not going to happen.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 04, 2009, 10:48:23 PM
Quote
This leads me to two believes. A. That most software companies are too highly leveraged and will lose money no matter what.
But B. The best route of some software is to not put it on the Wii.
And how exactly do you know what the cause is of their losses? That is right you don't, we are also in a tough economic period and EA releases games for systems other then Wii as well. You are showing bias in your statement right there when you indicate the reason EA and Sega are doing poorly is because of Wii when you have nothing to back it up. All we know is that EA is happy with Wii and is constantly expanding their support for the system. It may not be so called core titles but it indicates they are doing well on Wii. The same could be said with Sega (heck Wii owners are one of the few owners out there that buy crap like Sonic and the Black Knight).
No AAA games? What about Monster Hunter 3? Boom Blox? Tiger Woods 10? Zack and Wiki? That is only a few of them, or are we going to get into the asinine definition wars of what AAA is?
The fact of the matter is that there have been several games on the HD consoles that have virtually bankrupt companies while on the Wii there hasn't which leads to some uniquely designed games that you just would not see on PS3 or Xbox 360 (like Let's Tap from Sega).
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: SixthAngel on August 05, 2009, 04:20:11 AM
What is with all the talk about giving away the farm to third parties. Nintendo has a cheap to develop for system with a huge install base and a fair licensing fee. Nintendo has helped third parties who have asked them for it but they don't knock on their doors and ask if they can polish their shoes (games). They are THIRD parties. They are seperate companies and big boys are supposed to be able to take care of themselves.
Deal with third parties on their terms? It is Nintendo's platform. They control it, it is by definition Nintendo's terms.
The way third parties are treated these days I hardly think of them as third parties. It also makes me think the indusrty is more unhealthy than people think.
-Epic essentially controlled the Xbox development because they made Microsoft change the specs. Thats right, a single different company with different motives and business plan changed the design of the console.
-Microsoft has essentially bankrolled numerous "third party" games.
-Moneyhats. When not fully bankrolled these games seem to get money and bonuses on licensing or advertising. This gives the big developers and big name games an even greater advantage. Way to help the little guys big guys.
-Nintendo giving first party franchises to third party developers so they do a game on a Nintendo platform.
I think all of these are terrible long term strategies because it gives all the power to other companies. The console maker is investing in a product whose future they don't control. If it is successful it will guarrentee an even bigger payoff to get the sequel(or in Nintendo's case gives someone else the ability to control your ip). Nintendo wants them to make games for Wii because it makes them money, not because Nintendo will give them money and they show this at the start.
Nintendo wants third parties to develop for their platform, they have made it very easy and cheap for them. That is all they should have to do (they are seperate companies) and all I think they should do.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 05, 2009, 04:42:05 AM
Sixth is right, Nintendo has helped 3rd parties who've asked for their help such as Capcom, EA (heck they released the motion plus way before Wii Sports Resort), and Ubisoft.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: KDR_11k on August 05, 2009, 12:45:32 PM
What are the big games on the Wii? Mario, Zelda, Metroid.
Wrong. The big games on the Wii are Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, Mario Kart (NOT regular Mario).
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Deguello on August 05, 2009, 03:26:54 PM
Quote
EA had it's best Wii quarter ever with EA active, Tiger Woods, Boom Blox, etc. and it doubled it's Q1 loss from the Prior year. That's also with Sims 3 selling 3.7 M copies. http://microsoft-news.tmcnet.com/news/2009/08/04/4308027.htm
Sega the same thing http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=19145. Sega is one of the few publishers to give the Wii their best software.
This leads me to two believes. A. That most software companies are too highly leveraged and will lose money no matter what.
But B. The best route of some software is to not put it on the Wii.
How do you know that your implication of Wii causing Sega and EA losses is in fact the Wii and not very expensive 360 and PS3 games that sell less than those Wii games? Sega has the Wii to thank for the highest selling game they have EVER published (Mario and Sonic @ Olympics). If anything, they probably should throw themselves at Nintendo's feet for still being ALIVE. But instead they follow this foolish "platform agnostic" crap, squandering their profits on crap like Golden Axe and The Club.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: Mop it up on August 07, 2009, 01:58:05 PM
This topic is supposed to be about brand loyalty, not third-party relations. There are plenty of other topics about that kind of stuff.
Title: Re: ♥ Loyalty ♥
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 07, 2009, 02:34:37 PM
