Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Ymeegod on January 17, 2009, 03:57:45 PM
Hmm.. This isn't new. This was stated like e3 last year. FFXIII was going hit Japan in winter of 09 and 2nd quarter for NA. Not sure about Euro but it's most likely winter 10'.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 17, 2009, 04:39:56 PM
So it's like pouring detergent in an already-opened wound. Awesome.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 17, 2009, 05:09:30 PM
Can it haters. It will still be glorious!
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Ymeegod on January 17, 2009, 05:17:29 PM
This is nothing more than flamebait.
It's sad that these people jump and down when bad news happen (again this isn't even new==it was always stated for 2010).
Do you want me to make new threads about all the games that won't make 2009 for the WII? *cough* Zelda *cough*
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 17, 2009, 07:43:19 PM
It's sad that these people jump and down when bad news happen (again this isn't even new==it was always stated for 2010).
Do you want me to make new threads about all the games that won't make 2009 for the WII? *cough* Zelda *cough*
Didn't think Zelda Wii was delayed a bajillion times. And has shown signs of development hell not to mention being rushed over to another system since it was going to come out on the Titanic of gaming systems. Which was especially neat since it was only possible on the PS3.
Sure go ahead create lots of threads on Wi games that won't make it in 2009, and then the moderators can close them. That would be fun!
Quote
Can it haters. It will still be glorious!
I always have had a soft spot for games I watch more than I play.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Ymeegod on January 17, 2009, 08:18:21 PM
I'm so glad you completely MISSED THE FREAKING POINT. I don't go around and make totally worthless flamers posts-- like this is one is.
Delaying games is nothing new (fact if you're a nintendo fan delays is expected) and again even though you don't like FF's charm doesn't mean apply to the millions who love "watching" their games as you so cleverly put.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 17, 2009, 08:51:22 PM
I'm so glad you completely MISSED THE FREAKING POINT. I don't go around and make totally worthless flamers posts-- like this is one is.
But GP didn't miss the point when you specifically made a poor comparison to Zelda...The fact is, FFXIII is in development hell, and it all boils down to really crappy planning and managing on Squenix's part (be it due to the console or other reasons, it doesn't really matter)...
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Adrock on January 17, 2009, 09:42:28 PM
Final Fantasy XIII is taking forever because Square Enix thought it was a good idea to develop 3 related games at the same time, 2 of which are being developed using an engine they built themselves specifically for these games. On top of that, think about all the games Tetsuya Nomura, Yoshinori Kitase and co. were/are directly responsible for in addition to the FF13 compilation which include, but aren't limited to, Dissidia, The World Ends with You, and 3 Kingdom Hearts games. Final Fantasy XIII and Versus XIII just happen to be the larger, more complicated titles of the bunch.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 17, 2009, 09:50:32 PM
Final Fantasy XIII is taking forever because Square Enix thought it was a good idea to develop 3 related games at the same time, 2 of which are being developed using an engine they built themselves specifically for these games.
As far as I know, Versus was put on hold quite a while ago (until FFXIII nears completion) and its team members were sent to work on the main title...
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Adrock on January 17, 2009, 10:18:50 PM
As far as I know, Versus was put on hold quite a while ago (until FFXIII nears completion) and its team members were sent to work on the main title...
That was debunked by Square Enix more than 6 months ago... And even if it wasn't, think of how long they would have been trying to develop 3 related games and 1700 others games at the same time. Poor time management on their part.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 17, 2009, 11:12:25 PM
I'm so glad you completely MISSED THE FREAKING POINT. I don't go around and make totally worthless flamers posts-- like this is one is.
Delaying games is nothing new (fact if you're a nintendo fan delays is expected) and again even though you don't like FF's charm doesn't mean apply to the millions who love "watching" their games as you so cleverly put.
Who the heck are you? All I know you are a grumpy person that apparently needs a hug. BTW I loved FF2 so I think I know what FF charm is, all I know is that the series has turned into a glorified movie where you spend more time watching things like magic effects (which gets old really fast) and overly long CGI movies. So please preface your comment about "FF charm" with every FF after FF7 the RPG equivalent of the current MGS games which focus more on cinema aka, the "next generation" Final Fantasy.
I know you thought you were being clever with your asinine comparison to Zelda Wii, but the fact remains it is a stupid comparison. We don't even have an official announcement of Zelda Wii. FF has been delayed and pushed back for quite awhile now and with it moving to 360 shows me they are having troubles or doubts of some sort with how it is going (My guess it is more financial). How long has it been since it was officially announced? Like 3 years ago? I remember their talk years ago about how it could only be done on the PS3 with their fancy graphical engine. You can call this thread "flame bait" (How I love the anti-fanboi fanboi trolls), but it is a legitimate point to put into question if this is a train wreck that is just waiting to happen, if not from a gameplay standpoint, but a financial standpoint.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 17, 2009, 11:13:19 PM
As far as I know, Versus was put on hold quite a while ago (until FFXIII nears completion) and its team members were sent to work on the main title...
That was debunked by Square Enix more than 6 months ago... And even if it wasn't, think of how long they would have been trying to develop 3 related games and 1700 others games at the same time. Poor time management on their part.
You forgot moving it to the 360 as well. That had to put them into a bind.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 17, 2009, 11:19:03 PM
As far as I know, Versus was put on hold quite a while ago (until FFXIII nears completion) and its team members were sent to work on the main title...
That was debunked by Square Enix more than 6 months ago... And even if it wasn't, think of how long they would have been trying to develop 3 related games and 1700 others games at the same time. Poor time management on their part.
Well Squenix didn't have much trouble putting out a bunch of (console) games a year last generation, so clearly they are doing something very wrong... =\
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Adrock on January 18, 2009, 12:30:56 AM
Well Squenix didn't have much trouble putting out a bunch of (console) games a year last generation, so clearly they are doing something very wrong... =\
This is also the first generation they're developing games for everything whereas last generation they focused primarily on PS2 and dabbled in GBA development... and that 1 GCN game. Square Enix is still putting out multiple games a year, it just seems like they're taking on more projects than they have before.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: NWR_Lindy on January 18, 2009, 12:39:49 AM
They're making the PS3 version for Japan first, and then apparently localizing it and doing the 360 immediately after that.
"Square Enix had previously stated that no work will go into porting FFXIII to the Xbox 360 until after the game is launched in Japan, with both editions not undergoing localization until after that date.
FFXIII remains a PS3 exclusive in Japan."
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 18, 2009, 03:57:17 AM
"Square Enix had previously stated that no work will go into porting FFXIII to the Xbox 360 until after the game is launched in Japan, with both editions not undergoing localization until after that date.
FFXIII remains a PS3 exclusive in Japan."
Maybe I don't know much about game development, but wouldn't they need to start porting it over to 360 ASAP if they wish to get it out in a timely fashion? Either way I stand corrected on the 360 aspect of my post, though I do feel things are getting way too expensive for them which is why they are bringing it out to the 360 in the U.S.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: NWR_Lindy on January 19, 2009, 01:25:06 AM
For sure, bringing it to the 360 is a clear cost-recouping move. Remember that they announced the game for PS3 way before the current system wars shook out, and the landscape looked way different back then.
In the article KDR posted above, they said at least April 2010. I'm assuming that's for the PS3 version, which would only require straight script translation and localization (i.e. no code porting, so less programming and testing involved). Square-Enix's 2008 fiscal year ends March 31, 2009, so it looks like their plan is to release FFXIII for both PS3 and 360 in the same fiscal year (which makes sense, because there's no reason why you'd want to split the revenue from both games across two fiscal years).
I'd expect the 360 version to be released in the fall (maybe September/October). I figure it'll take a couple of months to port, and then probably six months to test. Of course, this is all just my guessing. ;-)
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 19, 2009, 01:26:50 AM
For sure, bringing it to the 360 is a clear cost-recouping move. Remember that they announced the game for PS3 way before the current system wars shook out, and the landscape looked way different back then.
In the article KDR posted above, they said at least April 2010. I'm assuming that's for the PS3 version, which would only require straight script translation and localization (i.e. no code porting, so less programming and testing involved). Square-Enix's 2008 fiscal year ends March 31, 2009, so it looks like their plan is to release FFXIII for both PS3 and 360 in the same fiscal year (which makes sense, because there's no reason why you'd want to split the revenue from both games across two fiscal years).
I'd expect the 360 version to be released in the fall (maybe September/October). I figure it'll take a couple of months to port, and then probably six months to test. Of course, this is all just my guessing. ;-)
Xbox 360 version confirmed to be on 20 DVDs. ;)
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: NWR_Lindy on January 19, 2009, 01:30:13 AM
LOL seriously. I wonder if the movies will be a little compressed on 360?
It would be hilarious if the video quality equaled that of RE2 when it was ported to N64.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 09:36:30 AM
Can it haters. It will be glorious.
;)
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: KDR_11k on January 19, 2009, 09:51:17 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if they'll hold the PS3 version until the 360 one is releasable.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Deguello on January 19, 2009, 10:44:00 AM
FFXIII is an albatross around Square Enix's neck. They would be far more profitable if they could mobilize their development teams behind market leading market leaders. It's keeping them locked into developing this one mega-title and preventing them from having products on shelves, for consumers to buy, which makes "profit" (The bearers of such ideas having become pariahs for some reason this generation.) This is just bad strategy.
The funny thing to notice is that Square Enix has actually sold less console games this generation than last. Maybe this "No Platform Left Behind" strategy isn't really working out for them, or third parties in general.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 19, 2009, 11:02:39 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if they'll hold the PS3 version until the 360 one is releasable.
This is what I predict...The 360 version will outsell the PS3 version anyway, so if they release the PS3 version first, people will end up forgetting about it and not buy it when it finally releases on the 360...Not to mention that it's unlikely that Squenix will separate the releases from each other "to split the sales over the two halves of the fiscal year"...Wada has already mentioned in interviews several times that they want to release games that sell millions within the first weeks of release, and a purposely-delayed release seems to counter that ideology...
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Peachylala on January 19, 2009, 12:23:24 PM
Quote from: Deguello
The funny thing to notice is that Square Enix has actually sold less console games this generation than last. Maybe this "No Platform Left Behind" strategy isn't really working out for them, or third parties in general.
Developing for one system only and doing little development for other systems didn't really work out well last generation for any company. Sure, Sqeenix made bucketloads of money with all/some of the games it made for the PS2, but they have a fanbase with blind loyality...even if they bitch about everything. :P
Kind of like what Nintendo's non-casuals do. :D
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 19, 2009, 12:31:05 PM
You guys need to stop being flaming troll baiter people for saying ANYTHING that looks funny with the development of this game. It will be the bestest, most polished game in HISTORY.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 01:04:56 PM
I just wanted to say that its possible for a game that had some problems in development to still be a great polished game in the end.
Those two concepts don't have to be mutually exclusive. ;)
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 19, 2009, 01:09:12 PM
There's way too much winking going on in here... >=|
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 01:15:19 PM
Oh at least you caught on! ;)
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 01:15:26 PM
Or did you?
;)
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Ian Sane on January 19, 2009, 01:42:10 PM
If this was on the Wii everyone crapping on it here would be all "well I'm glad Square Enix is taking the time to make this as polished as possible." Twilight Princess was delayed for a whole year (probably for no actual reason other than porting it to the Wii). Back when Rare was with Nintendo their delays were seen as annoying but ultimately necessary. A big part of why this is getting crapped on is entirely because it's NOT a Wii game so it's funny to see it run into problems, like how talented third parties going under is okay provided they chose the other consoles over the Wii.
Though this IS taking a lot longer than Final Fantasy games usually take. They often come out every couple of years or so. Three a generation and all that. It is certainly a longer than typical delay.
It will probably still be pretty good though. Better than any current third party Wii game, I'll bet.
I think Final Fantasy gets a bad rap from Nintendo fans mostly because of sour grapes. It started to "suck" right around the time it went to the PS2. When anything with "Final Fantasy" in the title is announced for the DS everyone goes ga-ga over it. Square Enix making Dragon Quest for the DS and Wii is considered awesome but because this involves the PS3 and 360 it's considered funny that it's delayed. You want Square Enix to go under and thus not be able to make Dragon Quest X? Didn't think so.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Deguello on January 19, 2009, 02:04:25 PM
Ian, stop trolling. It isn't funny anymore. Have a point to your post instead of arguing hypothetical forum fights between two fanboy sock puppets you put on your hands.
I don't want Square Enix to go under. I want them to make smart decisions. FFXIII promised to the PS3 before the generation even started wasn't one of them. 360 games that do not sell because the userbase in America doesn't want them and the Japanese userbase doesn't exist wasn't one of them either. It doesn't matter how many 9's EGM gives i... Oops, I mean IGN gives it. It's just a bad business move. This is shaping up to be like that ridiculous movie they made, where it cost too much and never ever made a profit, despite how many geeks had to change shorts over it.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 19, 2009, 02:10:07 PM
I think Final Fantasy gets a bad rap from Nintendo fans mostly because of sour grapes. It started to "suck" right around the time it went to the PS2.
Considering it had THREE games on the PS1, I think you just proved that it has absolutely nothing to do with sour grapes...And actually it started going bad after FFVII (not including the port anthology collections that I think released afterwards), in my opinion...
Square Enix making Dragon Quest for the DS and Wii is considered awesome but because this involves the PS3 and 360 it's considered funny that it's delayed. You want Square Enix to go under and thus not be able to make Dragon Quest X? Didn't think so.
Again, stupid generalizations...For example, Golden Phoenix and I both own a PS3 and 360...If I wanted the game I'd get it...The fact is, I don't, and it has nothing to do with it not being on Wii, as much as you pitch a fit about it...Do I want Squenix to go under? Of course not...I enjoy their original DS games and am cautiously interested in DQIX (because of the fact that random battles have been thrown out the window)...I want Squenix to better manage their games so they can start work on new ones...Oh, and stop throwing around the fanboy card, it just proves you have absolutely nothing to your argument...
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 02:47:24 PM
I think Ian's points in this thread are just as good as anyone else's points, though people read them differently that other people.
In fact I think the exact bias he is trying to describe is nearly identical to the bias everyone on these forums read most of his posts with.
Regardless though, I DO think almost everyone here would be reacting differently if it was a Wii exclusive. ;)
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 02:53:15 PM
Oh and for the record... I have no problem with debating either side of this argument.
I just get the feeling sometimes that people search for Ian's posts just to belligerently attempt to refute them.
Let's chill out on the belligerent portion of that.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Deguello on January 19, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
Quote
I think Ian's points in this thread are just as good as anyone else's points, though people read them differently that other people.
No, they aren't Pale. He has been repeating this exact same argument for years. Over and over. It never changes. And the whole "Better than some third party Wii games" bit IS trolling, period. It's like he rolled out of GameFaqs drunk.
Assuming the bias of others is not a statement of fact and only muddles the issue. It's stealth ad hominem. Would anybody really be acting different? Square Enix seems to be dragging it's feet with Dragon Quest IX, too. Yet nobody's really bent out of shape about it, because the DS offers so much more than that. Same if FFXIII was a Wii title. The Wii is starting to shape up to be a pretty diverse platform, particularly RPG-wise. FFXIII's delaying on it would be a shame, but not the devastating event it is for the PS3.
This is big news because it is one of the PS3's biggest remaining games, one a few people have even bought PS3s for. It has been advertised ALREADY in Japan for the PS3. On TV. A game that won't be out until later this year at the earliest. And it's also one of the most expensive to ever be made, and it's not looking like it will build on the fanbase at all. They might even lose money on it, while still selling millions.
This has little to do with the likes or dislikes of the series. IT's all about the strategy and business of it all, and how AWFUL it is.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 03:07:10 PM
Well personally I think you saying that this wouldn't be as critical on the Wii or DS because there is "so much more than that" but saying it's "big news" on the PS3 because there are so few good games is EXACTLY the same as Ian saying FF 13 would be better than any current third party Wii game.
I have no problem with either statement. They are both personal opinions on the current state of a particular piece of hardware's software line-ups.
I can't figure out how you can say Ian bashing Wii's third party support is trolling yet you bashing PS3s entire game library is a fact.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Deguello on January 19, 2009, 03:20:42 PM
I'm not "bashing" the PS3's library. I'm just saying this is one of it's biggest games, bigger than the lesser titles on it, and not only has it been ported tot he 360, it might not even make it out this year, anywhere. And it's the one that will "save" the struggling PS3, as least it's being portrayed that way. This thread had ZERO to do with the Wii's library until Ian brought it up, in a random act of trolling. This thread is about FFXIII's constant delays and the business strategy of having one game suck up all the resources for a last-place platform.
It's constant delays are almost unprecedented. Even Ian's attempt at equivalence with Zelda Twilight Princess falls flat in this regard, because That game was announced in 2004 and came out 2 years later. Hardly the 4 or even 5 years FFXIII might face. And this is all one game, sucking up the resources of a very large company, and whether or not it's worth it, despite the happy yet dwindling fanbase and 9.0's from critics.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 03:29:29 PM
I personally think it can't be compared to any first party nintendo game because of Nintendo's policy of not even announcing games until they are almost done anyway.
Both Smash and TP are extreme examples of delays on first party games because they are so far outside the norm for Nintendo.
Arguably, I don't think the FF 13 delay is that much farther outside of Square Enix's norm relative, so I do think everyone is overreacting here.
But anyway, I still think both points are valid. The last thing I'll say on the matter is, if we policed every user for injecting personal opinions not immediately relevant to a topic into a response, we would be warning and yelling at a lot of people.
In the context of Ian's post, his reference to the Wii library isn't that big of a deal and shouldn't have been made one.
Ian isn't a troll. Trolls don't maintain a constant presence in a forum for over five years. Ian is a Nintendo fan with strong opinions. He has just as much right to discuss them as anyone here.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Ymeegod on January 19, 2009, 03:35:59 PM
Actually Ian hit the point on the head Bill--if this was about Zelda the thread would have been closed right at the back. And I wasn't talking about any WII Zelda since there's no news at all but I was referring to all Zelda past games since they were always delayed but nobody cares once the game's out (well all nintendo made zelda games--flagship managed to ship their games an time).
Delaying games doesn't matter much as long as the reason is good--I looking at you Too Human :(.
And stated WII 3rd party games suck in general isn't really trolling IMO since there's tons of articles on the topic about 80% of WII games are scoring below average. It's kinda funny because up to last generation--nintendo always had quality over quantity and now it's the other way around. Not saying there isn't solid 3rd party games but they're in the minority now.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 19, 2009, 03:36:30 PM
To counteract Ian's stereotypes. I started disliking the FF series with FF3 (FF6) when it moved to a more futuristic setting, or at the very least I was losing interest. Then FF7 came around with its "Lets watch movies of magic" and lack of depth perception in its ugly portrait backgrounds. From there it turned into some weird futuristic/realism hybrid that was more about watching the game then playing it.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 03:40:19 PM
I personally have absolutely no issue with games that have large cut scenes. I love the relaxation it gives me. It's like video game meditation.
Compare that to a game like Dead Space, which I just finished. I feel like it took about 10 years off my life from stress.
So yeah, I think I will always love Final Fantasy games.
GP did you play FF 7 when it was brand new or later on? I was just freaking awestruck at the time by the visual style.... Recently, I started it again and decided I wanted to hold out for a possible remake because the visuals looked so dated.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 19, 2009, 03:47:25 PM
Actually Ian hit the point on the head Bill--if this was about Zelda the thread would have been closed right at the back. And I wasn't talking about any WII Zelda since there's no news at all but I was referring to all Zelda past games since they were always delayed but nobody cares once the game's out (well all nintendo made zelda games--flagship managed to ship their games an time).
Delaying games doesn't matter much as long as the reason is good--I looking at you Too Human :(.
And stated WII 3rd party games suck in general isn't really trolling IMO since there's tons of articles on the topic about 80% of WII games are scoring below average. It's kinda funny because up to last generation--nintendo always had quality over quantity and now it's the other way around. Not saying there isn't solid 3rd party games but they're in the minority now.
Funny. I didn't think Nintendo had anything to do with the 3rd party titles beyond allowing them to be released. Obviously someone has forgotten the PS2 and PS One libraries which were jam packed with garbage with probably sub-20 or 10% being good. Not to mention the fact in regards to Zelda, Nintendo has PROVEN time and time again that delays usually mean more than development hell (usually it means flipping over tea tables). With Square this is odd even for them, and with it moving to 360 there are signs they may have to retool it somehow, unless they were lieing about it only being possible on PS3.
Also yes, Ian can be trollish because all he has to contribute is constant whining about the sky is falling. It is fine to be critical but when 99% of your posts are complaining it turns into trolling.
Also for fun:
Quote
Do you want me to make new threads about all the games that won't make 2009 for the WII? *cough* Zelda *cough*
Quote
And I wasn't talking about any WII Zelda
Riiggght.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 19, 2009, 03:48:11 PM
I personally have absolutely no issue with games that have large cut scenes. I love the relaxation it gives me. It's like video game meditation.
Compare that to a game like Dead Space, which I just finished. I feel like it took about 10 years off my life from stress.
So yeah, I think I will always love Final Fantasy games.
GP did you play FF 7 when it was brand new or later on? I was just freaking awestruck at the time by the visual style.... Recently, I started it again and decided I wanted to hold out for a possible remake because the visuals looked so dated.
I played it shortly after it came out at a friends house. Like I said the painted portrait dungeons were terrible to navigate which made the random battles even worse then before. The only FF game I have not played (well besides a couple of the unreleased ones) is FF9 though that one I may actually like since it seemed to go back to its roots. I think moving towards a more realistic art style ruined some of the magic for me in the series. Tales of Vesparia is an example of a game with gorgeous visuals but without the realistic characters.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Deguello on January 19, 2009, 03:53:04 PM
Quote
Ian isn't a troll. Trolls don't maintain a constant presence in a forum for over five years. Ian is a Nintendo fan with strong opinions. He has just as much right to discuss them as anyone here.
Except when the topic HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WII, ITS FAN, OR ITS GAMES. Seriously, Pale. He just brought it up out of nowhere, for no reason. It has zero relevance. That's trolling, period. I'm not going to argue this anymore. You can stand there like a referee and force equivalence if you want, but there isn't any. This thread was about FFXIII until Ian burst in here with his boring, tired rhetoric. This is a FACT. Period.
Quote
Arguably, I don't think the FF 13 delay is that much farther outside of Square Enix's norm relative, so I do think everyone is overreacting here.
That's just not true. Square Enix released a mega-load of games last generation. Several each year. And they all sold more and cost less to make. By this time (3 years into the gen), S-E had released FFX, FFX-2, Kingdom Hearts, and possibly FFXI, and several GBA games. None of the games they've released this generation have even sold as much as Kingdom Hearts, nor have they all sold as well COMBINED, yet they cost significantly more. They are having serious problems there, and it's very apparent.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 19, 2009, 03:53:36 PM
In the context of Ian's post, his reference to the Wii library isn't that big of a deal and shouldn't have been made one.
Yes it should, because the topic has absolutely nothing to do with the Wii game library, nor about game quality in general...It's a complete non sequitur...
Delaying games doesn't matter much as long as the reason is good--I looking at you Too Human :(.
Look, the issue isn't about bloody game quality...If Final Fantasy fans enjoy their Final Fantasy games, then great, whatever...They can enjoy their what-will-likely-be polished game...But delaying such a big-budget project for so long isn't good for a company with already-dropping revenue...There IS a limit to how much you can delay a product, especially when you have been showing off the same footage for YEARS...Not only is it bad for the company, it annoys the fans for dragging them along by a string and it annoys their fans of their other works, who just want them to get the damn thing over with so they can stick those resources into other pies/franchises...
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 04:02:39 PM
It was relevant to what he was trying to say because he was discussing the possibility that Nintendo fans were looking on these events more harshly because the game is not on Nintendo's hardware.
He was enforcing this thought by pointing out that he felt the Wii's third party support was lacking.
We should drop this. In my humble opinion Deg and Bill look like the trolls here because they are the ones that made this entire discussion so hostile in the first place. I'm playing referee because that's my job, and you all were too harsh as you assailed Ian. I still think his point was perfectly fine in this context.
BESIDES ALL OF THAT, it was a minor part of his entire post, and using that to debase his entire point is also ridiculous.
So to go back to the very beginning. I have no problem with you all trying to show the opposite side of the argument Ian was trying to make. That's what debating is for. My problem is the hostile way in which you did it. What value does Ian have in coming back to this thread if he is just going to be attacked like that. You ended the argument by your hostility, not because of your points.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 19, 2009, 04:04:23 PM
Really I do not want to see S-E go bankrupt, so I think it is at least a minimal concern that FF13 may not be good for them in the long run if it keeps getting pushed back (we'll see if it makes it out in Japan in 2009). All I know is that they've shown hardly anything of the game and what they have shown is pretty much the same footage. Beyond that we have tidbits here and there, some contradicting like it only being possible on PS3, but now it is coming to 360. Combine that with the fact it will be releasing first (supposedly) on a system that is struggling big time everywhere is cause for concern.
In regards to the thread turning nasty. Ymeegod was a pretty big contributor with his response to Pro's sarcastic (though not really vicious post) calling it flamebait along making a "threat" of posting threads on Wii games that won't make 2009. Not to mention his little "clever" attack on me when I wasn't even getting nasty with him (I was being more sarcastic with the game).
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 04:08:30 PM
I don't necessarily think SE is anywhere close to bankrupt so I really don't think there is much to worry about.
As many have said, they very possibly did stretch themselves too thin trying to make 3 FF13 related games. But they have obviously made some significant progress on DQ9 and have at least began DQ10.
Just step back and look at all those cash cows up there. As long as they still release a quality product, they will be rolling in it when they do come out. The only risk right now is not how long it's been delayed, but whether or not the game is successful.
And I'll bet on their track record for successful games personally.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 04:09:50 PM
Oh and as an aside, isn't Dissidia tearing up the charts in Japan right now? Also the DQ remakes on DS are selling really well. Crisis Core sold like crazy.
They don't have any big sellers on home consoles, but those up there have to keep them out of bankruptcy threat at least a little bit, don't they? ;)
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 19, 2009, 04:15:14 PM
It was relevant to what he was trying to say because he was discussing the possibility that Nintendo fans were looking on these events more harshly because the game is not on Nintendo's hardware.
Oh awesome, so from now on I can just claim everyone that disagrees with me is a fanboy that can't possibly have any other reason to have that opinion...Thanks for clearing that one up, Pale...
BESIDES ALL OF THAT, it was a minor part of his entire post, and using that to debase his entire point is also ridiculous.
Except his entire point was that we are fanboys that are only "attacking" the game (somehow talking about FACTS about the business decisions surrounding the game is attacking now) because it's not on a Nintendo console...It's a non-argument, Pale...
I don't necessarily think SE is anywhere close to bankrupt so I really don't think there is much to worry about.
As many have said, they very possibly did stretch themselves too thin trying to make 3 FF13 related games. But they have obviously made some significant progress on DQ9 and have at least began DQ10.
Just step back and look at all those cash cows up there. As long as they still release a quality product, they will be rolling in it when they do come out. The only risk right now is not how long it's been delayed, but whether or not the game is successful.
And I'll bet on their track record for successful games personally.
We'll see, if you recall GTAIV failed to meet expectations. The more bloated your budget gets the tougher it is to make back your costs in marketing and development. Also I wouldn't say they are bankrupt proof in this kind of climate! Look at all the companies that have went under who were making HD games. You can't have too many mistakes without it hurting big time. At the very least Square may need downsizing which wouldn't be good either.
The only company I'd say is pretty safe is Nintendo for obvious reasons and even then I wouldn't say it is a definite fact!
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Stogi on January 19, 2009, 04:16:36 PM
People still play these games?
Color me impressed.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 04:17:14 PM
To Bill:
Somehow we are still discussing why you think Ian is wrong instead of owning up to you both being extremely immature in your hostile attacks towards him.
Again, that was my only point.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Ymeegod on January 19, 2009, 04:17:43 PM
Again this is why I am comparing this to Zelda Bill. As others have stated, Zelda TP was delayed for 2+ years so why would you make such a big deal about Square doing the same? Actually if you want to be fair FFXIII was stated for a 2008 launch in Japan and now it's only pushed back one year (it's still coming 2009 in Japan).
And Square's still making tons of money with remakes (in fact their profits are actually up with most thanks to DQ and FF) so why wouldn't delay FF for polishing? Would Nintendo release a crappy Zelda or Mario game? No, because they know it's their signature franchises. Would you rather play a rushed game or a polished one?
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 19, 2009, 04:20:45 PM
Again this is why I am comparing this to Zelda Bill. As others have stated, Zelda TP was delayed for 2+ years so why would you make such a big deal about Square doing the same? Actually if you want to be fair FFXIII was stated for a 2008 launch in Japan and now it's only pushed back one year (it's still coming 2009 in Japan).
And Square's still making tons of money with remakes (in fact their profits are actually up with most thanks to DQ and FF) so why wouldn't delay FF for polishing? Would Nintendo release a crappy Zelda or Mario game? No, because they know it's their signature franchises. Would you rather play a rushed game or a polished one?
Zelda; TP was delayed a year to input motion controls. We KNEW what was going on there and there was a running build of the game that the public had seen. FF13 is still vapor ware as far as being in the public eye, it has had a couple of fancy movie trailers but that is it. It is a terrible comparison with Zelda which we pretty much knew the status of and where they were at.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Ymeegod on January 19, 2009, 04:22:15 PM
" All I know is that they've shown hardly anything of the game and what they have shown is pretty much the same footage. "
LoL. You can say that about any Nintendo game too. Some developers tend to keep the lid shut so other developers don't steal their ideas before it launches.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Deguello on January 19, 2009, 04:22:37 PM
Quote
It was relevant to what he was trying to say because he was discussing the possibility that Nintendo fans were looking on these events more harshly because the game is not on Nintendo's hardware.
And what does that have to do with FFXIII again?
Quote
He was enforcing this thought by pointing out that he felt the Wii's third party support was lacking.
This has what to do with FFXIII again?
Quote
We should drop this. In my humble opinion Deg and Bill look like the trolls here because they are the ones that made this entire discussion so hostile in the first place. I'm playing referee because that's my job, and you all were to harsh as you assailed Ian. I still think his point was perfectly fine in this context.
Whatever dude. This was about FFXIII, how retarded it is to delay it a million times, promise it to the last place console, and if this game is really going to be all that worth the FOUR YEAR wait. The other side of that debate is "It isn't retarded to promise it tot he PS3, the game needs the delays to be good, and it will be worth it." Not speculation on Nintendo fan reaction if the game were hypothetically on Wii or the Wii's third party line up, or Nintendo fans in general. That's a non sequitir.
Quote
So to go back to the very beginning. I have no problem with you all trying to show the opposite side of the argument Ian was trying to make. That's what debating is for. My problem is the hostile way in which you did it. What value does Ian have in coming back to this thread if he is just going to be attacked like that. You ended the argument by your hostility, not because of your points.
Excuse me, but he engendered the hostility by creating this Nintendo Fanboy Strawman argument about "some people" who might be more harsh on the game because it's on the PS3, regardless of the actual topic. He started it, and it was ended for him on solid points. And this isn't really a "debate." It WAS a debate about FFXIII until Ian came in here swinging trash bags about Nintendo fans and Wii Owners and screwed it all up.
But yeah, sure. Bygones and all that.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 19, 2009, 04:25:32 PM
" All I know is that they've shown hardly anything of the game and what they have shown is pretty much the same footage. "
LoL. You can say that about any Nintendo game too. Some developers tend to keep the lid shut so other developers don't steal their ideas before it launches.
Not for 3 years. Like I said with TP there was already a working playable build before it was ported to the Wii. Heck Nintendo Power had monthly features on the game. Nintendo after they announce games are usually pretty consistent about releasing new information consistently and not rehashing the same trailer. Please correct me if I'm mistaken but I cannot recall one big Nintendo title that was announced in which there were not consistent updates with new information every several months. Even going back to Mario 64 and OOT they still kept us updated on the progress with tidbits of information along with new things like screen shots or even trailers.
One big example I can think of, of a game that was delayed but we still were kept in the loop was SSB:B. It never seemed like it was struggling development wise but was obviously directed towards improving the game (as shown by the continuous updates). I kind of put FF13 in a similar category with the vapor ware Crystal Chronicles game with Wii. We've seen very little of the game and it has been years. And you can't help but wonder what happened to it. Heck I wonder that with ANY game where it goes years with hardly a peep but instead we are given recycled footage with minimal "new".
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 19, 2009, 04:33:09 PM
Somehow we are still discussing why you think Ian is wrong instead of owning up to you both being extremely immature in your hostile attacks towards him.
Haha, immature...Cute...
Okay Mommy, I'll be good now! (http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc48/BillAurion/Assorted/lolsmiley.png)
Again this is why I am comparing this to Zelda Bill. As others have stated, Zelda TP was delayed for 2+ years so why would you make such a big deal about Square doing the same?
1) I have never said anything of the sort saying Zelda being delayed was a good business decision... 2) The budget for any Zelda game is considerably less than FFXIII's... 3) Nintendo makes far more money than Squenix...
It's certainly more of an issue to consider in Squenix's case than Ninty's...
And Square's still making tons of money with remakes (in fact their profits are actually up with most thanks to DQ and FF) so why wouldn't delay FF for polishing?
No, no, no, no, you aren't looking at this in the business-line of things...The idea of using money from other projects to fund other projects is incredibly flawed...A GOOD business wants to make money on ALL their projects...
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Ymeegod on January 19, 2009, 04:34:08 PM
Zelda was shown at E3 2004 with a release date stated for within a year (e3 takes place in may). It wasn't relased untill Oct 2006 in Japan and Nov in the states.
So yeah two years delay--again not really uncommon in video games.
And just because it doesn't meet their expectations doesn't mean it doesn't make a profit :). There's a fine difference.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 19, 2009, 04:39:02 PM
Zelda was shown at E3 2004 with a release date stated for within a year (e3 takes place in may). It wasn't relased untill Oct 2006 in Japan and Nov in the states.
So yeah two years delay--again not really uncommon in video games.
And just because it doesn't meet their expectations doesn't mean it doesn't make a profit :). There's a fine difference.
Except for the fact take-two is struggling now. GTAIV not meeting expectations may not necessarily have meant it wasn't profitable but it still didn't help them like they needed it to because of the hole they dug for themselves elsewhere. It is really too bad it is so hard to find gaming budgets, I'd love to do a cost/benefit analysis of many of these big budget HD games.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Ymeegod on January 19, 2009, 04:43:56 PM
And I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about GoldenPhoenix? There's tons of new screens with FFXIII? Are you looking just for trailers? There's a great big article in my GI talking about new characters and such. Hell there's even actually screenshots of actaully gameplay too. You can go to http://www.the-magicbox.com for updates.
Again Deguello you're mistaken when you talk about FFXIII being delayed for "years" because as I keep pointing out so far it's only been a year (of course that can always change and get delayed again but who knows).
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 19, 2009, 04:46:53 PM
And I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about GoldenPhoenix? There's tons of new screens with FFXIII? Are you looking just for trailers? There's a great big article in my GI talking about new characters and such. Hell there's even actually screenshots of actaully gameplay too. You can go to http://www.the-magicbox.com for updates.
Again Deguello you're mistaken when you talk about FFXIII being delayed for "years" because as I keep pointing out so far it's only been a year (of course that can always change and get delayed again but who knows).
I think someone needs to quit being so hostile. Oh wow, new characters! And some screens. AMAZING, I take everything I said back. That is definitely normal for a game that was announced three years ago. Seriously though maybe you could get get some constructive debates if you quit being so angry and nasty calling people names.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Ymeegod on January 19, 2009, 04:48:15 PM
"Except for the fact take-two is struggling now. "
Do you just make this stuff up? It's quarter's up and the only time it's shares dropped when Take-two shot down EA's bid. Taketwo isn't hurting for greensbacks I can assure you.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 19, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
"Except for the fact take-two is struggling now. "
Do you just make this stuff up? It's quarter's up and the only time it's shares dropped when Take-two shot down EA's bid. Taketwo isn't hurting for greensbacks I can assure you.
Fiscal 2008 - $97.1 million or $1.28 per share Fiscal 2007 - LOSS of $138.4 million or $1.93 per share
GP's statement on GTAIV not helping as much as Take Two would have liked stands...
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 19, 2009, 04:58:09 PM
"Except for the fact take-two is struggling now. "
Do you just make this stuff up? It's quarter's up and the only time it's shares dropped when Take-two shot down EA's bid. Taketwo isn't hurting for greensbacks I can assure you.
Fiscal 2008 - $97.1 million or $1.28 per share Fiscal 2007 - LOSS of $138.4 million or $1.93 per share
GP's statement on GTAIV not helping as much as Take Two would have liked stands...
Let me clarify, maybe it isn't a hole but it is below what they expected. It is pretty scary that a game like GTA which sold MILLIONS is still below expectations.
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Ymeegod on January 19, 2009, 04:58:13 PM
And there's plenty of hands on demos too for FFXIII so it's not completely vaperware like you kept suggesting. The demo of course it being packaged with FFAC DVD complete edition or something like that and that date is set as well--April 16 for a whopping $54. And Bill thinks Square has trouble getting money?
Title: Re: No FF13 in 2009 for the west
Post by: Pale on January 19, 2009, 04:59:04 PM
Jeebus crunks....
I'm locking this....
Read this thread. It was going relatively fine until someone was randomly called a troll. Then other people got involved and got angry and hostile too.
Moral of the story, don't get hostile and personal on internet message boards!
