Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Smash_Brother on August 17, 2008, 11:42:49 PM
Title: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Smash_Brother on August 17, 2008, 11:42:49 PM
Some NSFW language and imagery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9joAb4XMaUs
I couldn't agree more with his take on the situation.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Arbok on August 18, 2008, 12:01:17 AM
The cheapest console will run you $300 after an additional controller and a game... umm... so Wii Sports is no longer packaged in?
I also laughed about his saying that the minute those subdivisions from the conglomerates become unprofitable they will turn them loose rather than try to save the industry... considering how in the red the Xbox brand is in general.
To be fair, he has some good points, though, about the haphazardness of only focusing on older consumers in a market that was born from younger ones, which applies to everything.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: King of Twitch on August 18, 2008, 12:58:55 AM
"Goodbye Capcom, goodbye Konami. No more Solid Snake, no more Master Chief."
I got goosebumps (the good kind) at this part. It gives me hope.
Does he really think Sony and Microsoft give two spits about "having a mascot" It's not about profitability, it's about taking control of your living room, integrating useless gadgets that eff up your daily life, and winning format warz.
If they somehow fail at that and stop supporting the PS3/360, then what? I agree with Arbok, Capcom and Konami aren't going to fold overnight; they would be forced to make smaller, cheaper, quicker-to-develop games (heaven forbid), and Nintendo gets to prescribe a maximum number of games per year from them. Wii owners get tons of games to choose from. Nintendo crushes its opponents and will be powerful like a Stalin and not tolerate people who are bad. Everyone wins.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: NWR_pap64 on August 18, 2008, 01:13:39 AM
Wow...I actually 100% agree with the guy.
So indirectly, he's giving Nintendo credit for trying to appeal to everyone instead of just focusing on the core. So the one thing gamers hate to death is the one thing might end up saving the industry, or at the very least, on life support. Needless to say, I agree.
He is preaching a bit of doom, but considering the industry has fallen once it doesn't mean it won't happen again...
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Stogi on August 18, 2008, 02:58:37 AM
He's making a point that doesn't need to be made because it's obviously obvious.
Not expanding the market will cause the market to crash. Fuckin' Duh! Great fucking point. I can't wait to hear your next one...
*watches Game Overthinker v6*
Oh God damn it!
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: NWR_pap64 on August 18, 2008, 03:04:15 AM
He's making a point that doesn't need to be made because it's obviously obvious.
Not expanding the market will cause the market to crash. ****in' Duh! Great ****ing point. I can't wait to hear your next one...
*watches Game Overthinker v6*
Oh God damn it!
It might be blatantly obvious, but considering many fans and the industry are oblivious to it, it needs to be said.
Really, go to sites like Go Nintendo and you'll see a sea of articles about how "Wii is ruining gaming" or "How the 360 and PS3 are shaping the future".
Fans are too caught up on the next gen wars that they don't even stop and think how this could destroy the industry.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Stogi on August 18, 2008, 03:19:33 AM
And? What of it?
Do you really think a "wiser" generation of fans is enough to propel the industry?
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: NWR_pap64 on August 18, 2008, 03:29:05 AM
Do you really think a "wiser" generation of fans is enough to propel the industry?
I honestly can't predict what will happen in the next generations of gaming, or this guy for that matter.
For the record, I believe the guy is simply stating a conspiracy theory, theory as in it may happen or not. What I do agree with him is that gaming has become too obsessed over targeting just the hardcore, creating too much titles that are considered "mature" and not enough diversification in games, and could potentially harm the industry in the long run.
It won't happen now since all three consoles are selling splendidly, but who knows what will happen in the future.
Agree with him or not he makes some good points, obvious as they may seem.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on August 18, 2008, 03:34:06 AM
The only problem with this generation is that it's really boring, the advent of the Unreal engine everything seems so generic. Since MS and Sony upped the ante with graphics and processing power the huge side effect is that all companies developing on the 360 and PS3 will have to spend a lot more money and ultimately charge more for their games.
I agree with the guy though, and this is why Sony is trying make sackboy from Little Big Planet to be the PS3 mascot. Nintendo's plan will always work in the long run because they are trying to appeal to everyone and look how that turned out this generation because Nintendo is trying their hardest to alienate the least amount of people to try to have the biggest potential market and it worked.
Look at Microsoft's marketing plan the 360 is doing well in America but they are struggling in Europe and on life support in Japan. Microsoft kept focusing on the "hardcore" while that may be fine and dandy right now, you sure as hell can bet they will be getting the most diminishing returns come next cycle. Microsoft has arguably the weakest foundations this generation because while they are securing games for 360 it's hard to buy exclusivity for a platform these days since all the companies are trying to play in a safe mode because everything is oh so expensive. And in reality I think the 360 will be long forgotten because there aren't a lot of memorable characters to associate with the 360. And I don't think a space marine with a over sized paintball suit classifies a classic character like mario or sonic.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Stogi on August 18, 2008, 03:57:23 AM
So what your saying is: expanding the market would equal greater returns.
By golly! Your onto something!
In all seriousness, this is econ at it's dumbest. And no offense to that guy, but while he may seem articulate, he shouldn't be spread about as the next wise man. He isn't making a new point.
Now, one could make a new point by taking it one step further by saying non-gaming is the new gaming.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: KDR_11k on August 18, 2008, 05:02:52 AM
You mean like this (http://malstrom.50webs.com/)?
EDIT: Gah, he way overstretches the definition of a toy. His definition includes TVs, radios, etc but no real definition of the word toy would include those. Besides, Nintendo is showing that you don't need to get 'em while they're young, they're bringing people into the market that have a fairly high age already. While getting children is a cheap way to expand the market it is by far not the only one. Comic books, even with their appeal to older readers, were still a niche. Videogames were too, they basically had their own world that required joining early or you would never understand it. However Nintendo changed the rules and now it's no longer an exclusive club for those who were more or less born into it, now it can expand to anyone, whether they played games before or not.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Caliban on August 18, 2008, 10:29:13 AM
That's why Nintendo almost always wins, and the reason why the DS is so succesful.
In all seriousness, this is econ at it's dumbest. And no offense to that guy, but while he may seem articulate, he shouldn't be spread about as the next wise man. He isn't making a new point.
Now, one could make a new point by taking it one step further by saying non-gaming is the new gaming.
But he's making a point that the majority of the videogame industry is ignoring, which is a valid point in itself whether it is new or not.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Smash_Brother on August 18, 2008, 11:52:35 AM
In all seriousness, this is econ at it's dumbest. And no offense to that guy, but while he may seem articulate, he shouldn't be spread about as the next wise man. He isn't making a new point.
It's the parallel to the comic book industry which makes it so valid.
I remember this exact trend he describes and when it happened to the comic book industry. Suddenly, characters couldn't be too dark. And he's right that it's all about insecurity on the part of gamers.
THAT is the lesson here which deviates from simple econ.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Ian Sane on August 18, 2008, 12:24:52 PM
Quote
So the one thing gamers hate to death is the one thing might end up saving the industry
Save it from a business perspective maybe but if the Wii represents the future of gaming then gaming is dead. You think Sony and MS don't provide enough variety and Nintendo does? Nintendo has no variety. Their philosophy is "every game for everybody". Every game has to be family friendly. Every game has to be accessible. That's not variety. The only difference between them and the others is right now Nintendo's one dimensional view of videogames is popular with the mainstream and the other view is less so. But I don't see how everything being sissy marshmellow land provides any more variety then everything being gritty space marine. Nintendo is just rejecting one group in favour of a bigger one. No one is truly providing any variety. Even if Sony and MS leave the videogame market Nintendo won't be unopposed for long. They're too narrow minded. They never learned to get the old gamers back, they just targetted a huge brand new group of customers. There will be a sizeable group that doesn't like what Nintendo has to offer and someone else will clue in and target that group.
Though I'm thinking what has really killed videogames is the Japanese market suddenly deciding that videogames aren't cool anymore. Japan always made the best games. It seemed like that market had such intelligently good taste in videogames, while here in the west the attitude was more like one should make crappy games and trick dumb people into buying it. It was like that trick didn't work in Japan; you HAD to make a good game. But now it's reversed and in Japan making a good game is actually a BAD strategy. It's hard for someone from a different culture to understand it but it seems the Japanese are sheep. Something is either liked by everyone or nobody likes it at all. It seems like the concept of individual tastes and niche markets doesn't exist. So when everyone liked good games it was very beneficial but now that everyond likes crap it's really hurt gaming. A golden age has ended.
I see the comparison to comic books but the thing it it was CRAPPY comics that killed it. Sh!t like Spawn and Youngblood where it was all flash and no substance. But no one says that Watchmen or Maus killed comics. No one accuses any of the comics that were not mainstream accessible but still hold up today as classics as contributing to it. It's the annual Marvel crossover that gets dumped on and rightfully so. But it seems like with videogames there's this attitude from those that support Nintendo's ideas that GOOD games were bad as well. There's this revisionist history crap that seemingly everything from 2000 onwards was crap and thank God Nintendo is dumbing things down! Complexity is not bad. Neither is making something that the mainstream doesn't get. If you're going to point fingers at least point them at the hacks making sh!t games and let go of this stupid attitude that good games shouldn't be made because grandma and your girlfriend don't get them.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Stogi on August 18, 2008, 12:40:10 PM
Sadly enough Ian, in order for gaming to become more popular it has to lose it's complexity. It has to become easier to understand, and thus easier to get into.
However, that fact is still somewhat of a half-truth. The correlation is reciprocal. The less complex games are (yet still fun), the more popular they will inevitably be. The height-limit is set lower, so more people can ride the ride, per say. But, the more popular games in general are the more complex they can become.
So growth, no matter what the direction or focus, whether you like it or not, is ultimately good for you.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: KDR_11k on August 18, 2008, 01:15:42 PM
And another hardcore parody ITT. Since when are accessibility and family-friendliness negative traits? You're just bitter you're no longer a non-conformist by liking Nintendo.
Quote
They never learned to get the old gamers back, they just targetted a huge brand new group of customers.
Did you read about this whole disruption thing? The "old gamers" you're talking about are the top of the market, by going in at the top you get killed by the incumbents since they see you as a major threat and have more resources to use. Nintendo had no choice except to go for the bottom of the market first (which the other companies didn't even serve at all and are happy to cede). They then move upmarket slowly (i.e. closer and closer to the "core gamers") and exploit their opponent's willingness to cede the "casual" gamers while focussing more and more on the hardcore. They're eating Sony and MS's market from the bottom up. Had Nintendo aimed for the hardcore first they'd either have failed right away (as they have in the past) or if they had any success MS and Sony would just steal their innovations. By going for the markets the other two consider unworthy they don't WANT to copy Nintendo's approach, they don't WANT to become "casual game companies". Even if they see Nintendo's sales and try to grab them by stealing Nintendo's innovations they'd likely fail because they'd attribute the success to the wrong factors, e.g. motion control (which was really just a way of making games more accessible) or crappy casual games (when Nintendo made sure to make high-quality games that cover new ground).
Quote
Though I'm thinking what has really killed videogames is the Japanese market suddenly deciding that videogames aren't cool anymore. Japan always made the best games. It seemed like that market had such intelligently good taste in videogames, while here in the west the attitude was more like one should make crappy games and trick dumb people into buying it. It was like that trick didn't work in Japan; you HAD to make a good game. But now it's reversed and in Japan making a good game is actually a BAD strategy. It's hard for someone from a different culture to understand it but it seems the Japanese are sheep. Something is either liked by everyone or nobody likes it at all. It seems like the concept of individual tastes and niche markets doesn't exist. So when everyone liked good games it was very beneficial but now that everyond likes crap it's really hurt gaming. A golden age has ended.
As they say, [citation needed]. I don't see anything supporting your story there, care to back it up?
Quote
There's this revisionist history crap that seemingly everything from 2000 onwards was crap and thank God Nintendo is dumbing things down! Complexity is not bad. Neither is making something that the mainstream doesn't get.
Complexity is not bad if done right but it's done more and more wrong. Easy examples, Chess and Go are fairly simple games rule-wise but the actual play is sometimes considered the definition of complexity. Now compare, say, Agricola which gives you a shock the first time you open the box and read the materials list. It's manageable once you understand it but most people would have trouble understanding the game even after reading the manual (explaining it in person works better).
The complexity of the game should not be pushed directly onto the player! A PS2 game I got recently, the FPS Black (apparently started selling well once it hit the bargain bin), pretty much a run and gun game, has all face buttons and the dpad on the Dualshock mapped to different actions (of course the shoulder buttons as well). Considering this is a game where you usually just point and shoot, maybe lobbing a grenade occassionally, it's total overkill. Why are there so many buttons? Hell, half the time I forget which button is which (since they're used for fairly rare and often not very meaningful actions like attaching a silencer or adjusting the fire mode on your gun). There's your complexity, tons of buttons that could have been struck from the game along with their functions without much impact!
Good complexity is the kind that comes with a simple interface. Wii Tennis allows hitting the ball in many ways, yet all most people see of it is that you can swing the racket. Oh, right, you people complain that you can't aim your ball with the dpad or analog stick. Because every racket comes with one of those. A game can be very complex without needing tons of buttons because for the game to be complex the thought processes involved must be complex, not the controls.
Of course it's easy to slap more and more afterthought actions on your controller until every last button is full...
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on August 18, 2008, 01:26:15 PM
Well Ian I sort of disagree with you. Everyone loses tastes eventually and the only way to regain your market is try to regain your deserters or get a new audience in a way Nintendo is doing both but predominantly aiming for the new audience.
Nintendo knew for a fact that the Japanese audience was shrinking so they needed to shift to a new strategy, so far the 3 cheapest platforms in Japan are doing the best (Wii, DS and PSP) and in each platform there are very good sales with specific pieces of software on each platform like your normal nintendo games on Wii and DS, the training games on DS along with your nintendo staples and the monster hunter style games on PSP.
In a way Sony and Microsoft got burned by making their home consoles very expensive compared to the Wii, not a lot of people would spend more than 300 dollars on a home console especially when your controllers are 50 dollars and your games are 60 dollars it makes an expensive hobby even more expensive.
In a way a lot of games based around the Unreal engine are generic flash and no substance, I wasn't wowed by gears of war and I thought Unreal 3 was a huge disappointment.
I also disagree with you that Nintendo doesn't offer diversity under their belt they have platformers, action games, arcade sports and racing games, strategy games, a lot of multiplayer centric games, RPGs (some). But the Wii and DS has a huge diverse library and in my opinion it's more diverse than the PS3 and 360 library.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 18, 2008, 02:10:05 PM
Why listen to some youtuber when one can read NWR forum posts?
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: DAaaMan64 on August 18, 2008, 02:12:17 PM
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: D_Average on August 18, 2008, 11:41:35 PM
Uhh....This dude ever heard of Pokemon?
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: KDR_11k on August 19, 2008, 03:00:52 AM
BTW, one of Malstrom's articles is about the same fears happening when the NES appeared. Computer gamers thought it was pretty much the casual system (or so I heard, all I know is that I was always envious of the one guy who had an NES here since that was better than the C64s we all had but it seems he was talking about Amiga gamers and such).
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: IceCold on August 19, 2008, 03:52:37 AM
KDR wins this thread with his first post. No need to continue.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Smash_Brother on August 19, 2008, 05:47:55 AM
EDIT: Gah, he way overstretches the definition of a toy. His definition includes TVs, radios, etc but no real definition of the word toy would include those.
The only difference between men and boys is the size of their toys. Anything a man buys that is unnecessary to work or serve some other practical purpose is a toy in my book. Hell, I could call a piece of construction equipment a toy without a hint of irony under the right circumstances.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Deguello on August 19, 2008, 01:37:11 PM
Guy is intelligent and his points well thought out. It's almost like Malstrom's stuff from a gamer's point of view.
The parallels between this and the comic book crash are uncanny. And the speculators and collectors could have cared less about the future of their medium until it was too late to save it.
If I make make a distinct comparison between the collector/speculator comic fan and hardcore videogamers and a houseguest from Billy Ray Valentine's brownstone in Philadelphia.
In the movie Trading Places, Billy Ray Valentine comes into money via the schemes of a pair of brother brokers to see if changing a man's environment could lead him to change his behaviors and attitudes. Thus, the homeless Billy Ray Valentine is taken from the streets and takes the place of Louis Winthorpe III, a wealthy man. The first thing the classless Bill Ray does is invite all of his acquaintances from the streets and bars he frequented and throws a lavish party. Things proceed as planned and everybody is happy with the party.
Until the guests start putting the cups on the tables without coasters, leaving trash all over the place, barfing in his bedroom, running prostitution businesses inside the home, and the ubiquitous putting out of Kools on his floor. (they're cigarettes) This causes Billy Ray to suddenly see his houseguests as freeloaders. What do the houseguests feel? They are having the time of their lives! They have full run of the house and everything is open to them and for them. They don't want the party to end!
So why does Billy Ray angrily throw them out? Because they are ruining his house, no matter how happy they are and how little they care at the moment. Now it's only a few cigarette butts mashed into the carpet. But soon, as the party goes as, things will deteriorate and deteriorate until the house is nearly uninhabitable, much less worthy of having guests over. And even those filthy louts won't want to stay over and will troll the next house's party.
Every hardcore, super HD-graphic FPS and Action game that is DEMANDED and flops and/or loses money due to low sales and high development costs is another Kool being put out on the floor. Some companies are already struggling hard and some names that were big only 3 years ago will be acquired like another brand name or go bankrupt. We don't like to think that some of us may be responsible when we demand increased sophistication and sneer at new ideas, new games, new IPs (which hardcore demand and then don't buy), but it is very well possible that we are. It is not a call to lower your standards, but a a call to realize those standards were forged on the very games being sneered at.
Another link between videogames and comic books is the request for "new IP." If you were a DC comics artist and storywriter and somebody says they are tired of Superman and want a new comic IP, the first thing they would do is totally deconstruct Superman and make something totally unique. So the result would probably a Sunday Funnies comic strip about a car mechanic.
Confused? I'll use Japanese comics as an example. The author of some broody samurai action series with lots of blood spillage would probably... say... pen a comic about a baker wanting the perfect loaf of bread. That's what "New IP" means.
However that's obviously not what the comic fan wants. He wants something like Shazam, which is just Superman "with a twist." In game terms this is like Miyamoto spearheading Nintendogs, and Wii Sports in reaction to wants of "New IP." That's obviously not what the comic fans and game fans meant, but if they truly stated their wishes of "Having a comic like Punisher except he rips the genitals out of criminals" or "Having a game like Mario but have the protagonist be a a cybernetic female with attitude and baditude," they would rightfully be seen as entitled tools.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: KDR_11k on August 20, 2008, 02:56:51 AM
EDIT: Gah, he way overstretches the definition of a toy. His definition includes TVs, radios, etc but no real definition of the word toy would include those.
The only difference between men and boys is the size of their toys. Anything a man buys that is unnecessary to work or serve some other practical purpose is a toy in my book. Hell, I could call a piece of construction equipment a toy without a hint of irony under the right circumstances.
Still overstretches the definition or leads to a false analogy. Just because something is bought for the same reason as a toy (fun) does not mean it's automatically aimed at the same people as a toy. Reasoning that a videogame is necessarily a toy because it's fun and because it's a toy it must pander to children doesn't make sense, he proves one attribute is shared between the two things (viideogames and toys are fun) and asserts that therefore another attribute must be shared (they're for kids). So what IS Wii Fit then?
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Deguello on August 20, 2008, 04:20:30 AM
He didn't say it MUST pander to children. He said that children must remain the primary audience.
And video games are most definitely toys. Even the blood-spewing ones. They started out as toys and remain toys, despite any claim that they have "furthered" themselves into other artforms by imitation.
This is similar to comic books trying to throw off the label "comic books" by attempting to shoehorn "graphic novel" or the foreign label "bande dessinée" in an attempt to "un-kid" (in this case "un-toy"). They are still comic books and the label did more than enough damage to the children buyers who wondered where the "comic books" were.
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: KDR_11k on August 20, 2008, 05:21:01 AM
I'm not saying they're an art form, I'm, saying they're entertainment like TV or radio. Wii Fit doesn't pander to children yet it is reaching markets videogames haven't seen before. Hell, the Atari VCS wasn't just for children either. Toy is a term with co-notations hence it's avoided, he's taking these co-notations and sees them as a necessary quality of everythign he can label toy, it's a problem on par with the watchmaker analogy ("The universe is complex. A Clock is complex. A clock has a maker. Therefore the universe must have a creator", it's a fallacy since it fails to show that the universe and the clock are alike in more attributes than complexity, a reductio ad absurdum is "Watches were made by locksmithes in the past, therefore the universe was made by a locksmith").
The painting into a corner was probably more a result of pandering to juvenile senses in a way that those without a well-trained liking for comics could not accept. For example, my mother wouldn't play a gory or shooty game no matter what it plays like. To like hardcore games you must first become hardcore and to become hardcore you need training. Kids are the easiest to train so they're the easiest way to grow the market. Of course focussing only on those who are trained leaves no chance for those who didn't get the training to enter the market. Nintendo is making games that don't need this training and suddently people who lack it or abandoned it before becoming hardcore are able to play again.
(BTW, I don't think BD is a term used to look grown up, it's simply because the French want to have a french term for everything rather than importing anglicisms)
Title: Re: Worth a watch/listen...
Post by: Deguello on August 20, 2008, 05:55:07 AM
Remember the context, KDR. I'm simply talking about the US audience. That's why I said "bande dessinée" as regards to "comic book" in America. Comic books began to have those connotations too, and they started to search for other labels that were "less kid." And foreign labels for the same or similar things like bande dessinée and manga serve that purpose.
I don't think the solution is ultimately "pandering" to kids one way or another, but one has to make their games non-threatening to them (or the content-controlling parents.) Wii Sports is about as neutral as you can get. Same with Wii Fit. Mario Galaxy too. Zelda as well. (although those last two certainly skew just a little bit towards males.) You can do this with RPGs (Kingdom Hearts and Mario & Luigi are great examples) and racing games and hell, even shooters. Somebody should try an FPS without all the profuse swearing and and gritty "adult" themes. They might be surprised by the results.
But the guy is savvy to the beast. In the context of him being a former "hardcore," now simply "core" gamer, (he has a video where he confesses he passed on Kirby for a long time because he was too "hardcore" for it) the invocation of video games as "toys" will carry a lot of merit, as the denial of game's "toy-ness" will lead down a slow road to death. He's not as intensely studied as Malstrom, but he is definitely in the same ballpark.
