Could there really be an "All-powerful" God? If so, then this God must be able to defy logic.
non sequitur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic))
How so? A creature that is "All powerful" should have no limits to It's power, right?
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: ShyGuy on August 06, 2008, 12:28:13 AM
I think you need a different measuring stick.
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: DAaaMan64 on August 06, 2008, 12:46:00 AM
Can a creature that knows everything all the time be lost? If it can also do anything, it can be lost, but if it knows everything, how could it ever be lost?
haha. I'll get back to you on this unsolvable logic.
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: KnowsNothing on August 06, 2008, 01:36:46 AM
That's an obscure way to ask that philosophical question...
I prefer "Can god create a boulder so heavy that he cannot himself lift it?"
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: UncleBob on August 06, 2008, 11:44:59 AM
That's an obscure way to ask that philosophical question...
I prefer "Can god create a boulder so heavy that he cannot himself lift it?"
That's an easy question. God can create a huge boulder that he can lift... but Jesus cannot. Since Jesus and God are one and the same, then He cannot lift it... but He can.
I win. :)
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: EasyCure on August 06, 2008, 11:53:39 AM
lay of the weed please
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on August 06, 2008, 12:04:20 PM
That's simply an invalid question. It's similar to the question, "Are you still beating your wife?" There is no right answer because the question itself is wrong.
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: wandering on August 06, 2008, 12:34:42 PM
That's simply an invalid question. It's similar to the question, "Are you still beating your wife?" There is no right answer because the question itself is wrong.
The wife question doesn't allow for the possibility that the man never beat his wife. What possibility doesn't the God question allow for?
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: UncleBob on August 06, 2008, 12:38:36 PM
That's simply an invalid question. It's similar to the question, "Are you still beating your wife?" There is no right answer because the question itself is wrong.
The correct answer to that question is "Yes. Nightly." You have to keep them in check, you know. Can have the women folk thinking they should have any rights or such.
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on August 06, 2008, 12:57:20 PM
That's simply an invalid question. It's similar to the question, "Are you still beating your wife?" There is no right answer because the question itself is wrong.
The wife question doesn't allow for the possibility that the man never beat his wife. What possibility doesn't the God question allow for?
How about the possibility that there is no God? Both questions are invalid simply because neither a yes or no answer can be correct (unless you have, in fact, beaten your wife). If you answer "yes" to the God question, then you're saying there's a limit to God's power to move things, and if you answer "no," then you're saying there's a limit to God's power to create things. If you believe in an omnipotent God, both scenarios are ridiculous. If you do not believe in God, then you can't answer the question because it presupposes that there is a God. And if you believe in a limited God, well, then I guess you're a wife-beater.
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: UncleBob on August 06, 2008, 01:09:41 PM
I don't think the question is invalid, I think the way you want to answer it is invalid. No one said the answer has to be a "yes or no" - why do you believe that to be the case.
"Can God create a monkey so big that he cannot lift it?" could be answered with "Yes" or "No", thus proclaiming a limit to God's power. Likewise, one could answer "There is no God." or "God works in mysterious ways - his ability to create and lift monkeys is beyond mortal comprehension." Either answer does answer the question. When dealing with philosophical issues, the answer is rarely "Yes" or "No". That doesn't make the question invalid.
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on August 06, 2008, 01:30:47 PM
Religious discussions are not allowed, so I am treating this as a discussion of logic. The question is a yes or no question. This is established by the wording of the question itself. The fact that a simple yes or no answer is not sufficient to answer the question demonstrates that there is a problem with the question and it should not have been phrased that way to begin with.
A yes or no question is essentially seeking a truth value, i.e. it's really asking "Is this statement true or false?" If you cannot say that the statement is either true or false, then the question must be invalid, in the logical sense. If answering yes or no leads to a logical impossibility, the question must be invalid.
Note that validity is completely separate from truth.
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: DAaaMan64 on August 06, 2008, 01:34:38 PM
That's an obscure way to ask that philosophical question...
I prefer "Can god create a boulder so heavy that he cannot himself lift it?"
That's an easy question. God can create a huge boulder that he can lift... but Jesus cannot. Since Jesus and God are one and the same, then He cannot lift it... but He can.
I win. :)
If that's the case then an all powerful being is simply everything. We are, this universe, it's conscience. That would enable the being to know every and still be able to do everything.
Otherwise, you might consider that there are multiple "All powerful" beings that simply have human flaws (Roman and Greek God style), that would allow someone to be omnipotent and another to be omniscient.
This is all within the bounds of logic anyway.
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: UncleBob on August 06, 2008, 01:52:41 PM
A yes or no question is essentially seeking a truth value, i.e. it's really asking "Is this statement true or false?" If you cannot say that the statement is either true or false, then the question must be invalid, in the logical sense. If answering yes or no leads to a logical impossibility, the question must be invalid.
Well, firstly, I could ask "Do I have two eyes?" and you can't answer "yes" or "no" because you can't see me to tell if I have two eyes. The question wouldn't be invalid.
Anywhoo, I don't see how this is a "Yes" or "No" question. You can feel free to answer with as many wordswordswords as you want, no one will complain. Would it be better if the questions were phrased "What would the ramifications be of an All-Powerful God attempting to create a monkey so large that He cannot lift it?" or "If an All-Powerful God attempted to exist and not exist at the same time, what would the outcome be?"
PS to mods: This isn't a religious discussion... it's a philosophical one. There are "All-Powerful" God-like creatures in many video games, movies, books, etc... no one would consider, say, The Beyonder to be a religious topic...
PPS to mods: Yes, I know I threw in a reply about God/Jesus above, but that was a semi-joking response... ;)
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on August 06, 2008, 02:54:54 PM
A yes or no question is essentially seeking a truth value, i.e. it's really asking "Is this statement true or false?" If you cannot say that the statement is either true or false, then the question must be invalid, in the logical sense. If answering yes or no leads to a logical impossibility, the question must be invalid.
Well, firstly, I could ask "Do I have two eyes?" and you can't answer "yes" or "no" because you can't see me to tell if I have two eyes. The question wouldn't be invalid.
A yes or no question is not always invalid, and the answerer not knowing the answer does not make it invalid, either. Presumptions within the question can make it invalid.
Quote
Anywhoo, I don't see how this is a "Yes" or "No" question. You can feel free to answer with as many wordswordswords as you want, no one will complain.
You can answer with whatever random snarflejuice you want, but your answer does not change the nature of the question.
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: DAaaMan64 on August 06, 2008, 02:59:25 PM
FINE, skip right over what I said.
Title: Re: "All Powerful"
Post by: vudu on August 06, 2008, 03:53:34 PM
