Post by: Andu_Tros on April 03, 2003, 03:58:22 PM
Post by: BlkPaladin on April 03, 2003, 04:21:46 PM
Post by: Okiva77 on April 03, 2003, 08:31:49 PM
I've done my own research into the legends' chronology. I pulled information from various sources, including game manuals and the game plots, and I believe I've come upon the definitive time line for the Legends of Link & Zelda:
Ocarina of Time
Majora's Mask
A Link to the Past
Link's Awakening
Oracle of Seasons/Ages
The Legend of Zelda
The Adventure of Link
The Wind Waker
I'm ignoring Four Swords cuz I havent played it yet.
I havent finished Wind Waker yet.
But from what I've read--I dont mind spoilers--if Hyrule ceases to be, then it makes sense for Wind Waker to be the "most recent" legend.
I dont buy the idea that Link's Awakening happened between the first legend and the second legend. Actually, I havent even finished that game yet if you can believe it. I s'pose after the gameboy player comes out and i can finish LA, then I can review my theories. Whatever!
Post by: yellowfellow on April 04, 2003, 05:06:03 AM
http://cube.ign.com/articles/379/379358p2.html
like miyamoto says, there are two dimensions; one where link is an adult and the one where he goes back to being a child.
since miyamoto says that WW takes place after the dimension where adult link left off, perhaps the other zelda games can take off from the timeline of link returning to his childhood.
therefore, two separate paths in the zelda dimension which can exist at the same time.
Post by: BlkPaladin on April 04, 2003, 06:47:46 AM
Post by: Chris150 on April 04, 2003, 12:37:08 PM
Post by: theaveng on April 05, 2003, 05:36:46 AM
Troy
Post by: theaveng on April 05, 2003, 05:36:48 AM
The ending was totally lame. Ganan was sooooo easy to beat. All you have to do is:
- Pelt Ganan with the boomerang so he can't dodge Tetra's light arrows.
- After 3-4 hits, Zelda bounces the light arrows off your shield.
- And then you kill Ganan with ONE parry blow.
Lame! ONE blow to kill the most dangerous person in Hyrule?!? Lame, lame, lame. The Ganandorf fight in Ocarina was sooooo much better. It was actually a challenge.
And then the story's conclusion, there's about 30 seconds of happy-looking people, credits, and 30 seconds of Tetra/Link sailing off. I played 30 hours for that lame ending?!?!? Again, Ocarina's ending was sooooo much better. I guess I'm just used to Final Fantasy's 15 minute endings, and so expected more from Wind Waker.
Troy
Post by: theaveng on April 05, 2003, 05:36:49 AM
A better explanation would be:
"Hyrule will eventually be un-flooded in some future game and the kingdom restored as seen in Link to the Past."
Miyamoto's idea does make sense though given that the "Hero of Time" statue is the adult Link. The child Link probably never accomplished anything worthwhile.
Troy
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 05, 2003, 05:25:27 PM
Next game: Direct sequal of WW...no Ganondorf in sight, because he is kind of solidified at the moment
2 games from now: new generation, a greater evil arises, a new Link dwells down in the ocean, grabs the master sword, boom, Ganon is back to life, he takes back the triforce, Hyrule rises as he wished in WW...Link must fight both beings, Hyrule still stays above water
Post by: ArmchairAthlete on April 07, 2003, 06:46:12 PM
Post by: Nam3l3ss on April 07, 2003, 08:32:18 PM
Post by: The King of red Lions on April 08, 2003, 08:25:48 AM
King Hyrule
What does that mean? He's scattered the triforce around so you gotta go looking for them? I think so. You must search for them later in the quest. you create a new kingdom that resembles Hyrule very closely. King Link and Queen Zelda haven't aged much since the end of Wind waker. An evil potionmaster steals links sea charts out of the Castle's basement, finding the location of the sunken master sword. He is a very evil man who wants power over everything. The evil potion master starts to pull out the blade but the King, still alive, destined to gaurd the blade forever, appears. But he is to late. The evil potionmaster swims off. The King can't believe it as he looks toward the Potionmaster swimming away.
The seal has been broken. Ganondorf laughs from behind the kings back. The King is captured by Ganondorf. Meanwhile, the evil potionmaster has sent monsters into three places on the map. Link has to go there, recieving items from the creatures based there. Link finally defeats the evil potionmaster and again holds the master sword in his hand. This allows the King to telepathically speak to him, telling him how ganon has come back and corrupted their new land. The king says the only way to abolish this evil is to get the real triforce, all three pieces. Link battles through three dungeons, getting courage and wisdom, but Ganon steals power from link in the last dungeon, he also kidnaps Zelda and goes to create a tower for his evil purposes. Link must go through two more dungeons to recieve the items that will allow him to defeat Ganondorf, he fails to kill him when he has the chance, Ganon's soul is sucked into the evil potionmasters son, which sets the stage for the next game.
Post by: The King of red Lions on April 08, 2003, 01:05:36 PM
---I still hold to my theory that Ganondorf is not dead, or else Nintendo would've made his stony body break into a thousand pieces. And Ganondorf himself didn't really mold into stone, it simply surronded his temporarily lifeless body, as if making a perfect stand for somebody to rip the blade right out from his head, and breaking the seal for evil to reign once again. And if you think that the water from the sea above will destroy Ganondorf and the master sword, (likewise the king), then you're pretty stupid.
Post by: rodtod on April 08, 2003, 02:04:12 PM
The Zelda series is simply a bunch of whimsical, fantasy-style iterations. It covers multiple dimensions, and different time periods.
Think of it this way, the series bears no exact timeline because whoever recorded this legend did a pretty poor job of organizing
------------------
Actually, now that I think about it, the reason the Zelda series has no obvious continuity is because the Legend of Zelda was not originally intended to be a major, continuous saga. How could Nintendo have known TLoZ would become one of their most successful franchises? Nope, Miyamoto and co. just made one Zelda game, without any plans for a sequel. But because that first Zelda game became so popular, Nintendo did the smart thing and kept the series going.
I think Nintendo might have been a little blinded by their own success. They knew that no matter what, Zelda would sell. And so, for the first couple of games, they didn't even bother setting up a major, continuous plot. A Link to the Past was perhaps their first attempt at constructing an actual legend, but it contained so many plot holes and inconsistencies that clearly the story was just put in as an afterthought.
What did Nintendo care? They had the Action-RPG genre all to themselves (all those other Action-RPG games either went unnoticed, or were also on Nintendo's systems).
When Squaresoft's Final Fantasy VI and VII made their debut on the PSX, Nintendo's Zelda was suddenly up against some true competition, and so with Ocarina of Time, they put a whole bunch of effort into the design, and a finally produced a working plot. This time around, the Zelda game got Game of the Year.
Wind Waker is Nintendo's way of saying "Yes, we now know that it's not enough to rely on a series' name for sales." WW is, imo, the best Zelda game yet. And this time around, it has a very comprehensive, very mature plot. Congrats Nintendo.
If we could just ignore the Zelda originals (Link I, II, Awakening and LttP) and go with OoT, MM, and WW, then there's definitely a continuous plot to be had. But for the series as a whole, it's still one big messy anthology.
Post by: couchmonkey on April 08, 2003, 04:56:47 PM
I think yellowfellow's theory is pretty cool! But maybe unecessarily complicated.
I think rodtod is exactly right when he says not to worry about continuity in the Zelda series, although it's ironic that he brings up Final Fantasy, the series which ignores continuity altogether by creating a brand new world and characters with each game.
Anyway In my opinion, the explanation to the Wind Waker's ending is simple. The flood wipes out old Hyrule and a new Hyrule appears in it's place. Maybe Link and Tetra find a new place to call Hyrule, or maybe the ocean eventually disappears over years or decades or centuries...either way, it actually helps to explain why the world of Hyrule changes so much! Out of my two theories, I would guess that the ocean disappearing is more likely, since Spectacle Rock seems to always appear in Hyrule no matter what game you play.
Ganon seems to be nearly indestructible, so I wouldn't be worried about how he "comes back". For all we know the real Ganon is still in the Sacred Realm (or Dark World) and he was controlling Ganondorf like he controlled Aghanim in ALTTP...we never did see him in his true form, now did we?
Oh yeah, on the "scattering the seeds" quote, didn't the Deku tree say something similar? Interesting parallel, though I wouldn't read into it too much. Scattering the pieces of the triforce seems like a good analysis.
Post by: rodtod on April 08, 2003, 07:37:34 PM
I agree with couchmonkey's analysis of the ending sequence in WW. Ganon is not only indestructible, he's a necessary part of the Zelda series. He plays two roles in the games, one as a crazed Gerudo trying to satisfy his lust for power, the other as a savage monster intent on wreaking mass destruction throughout the world. I don't know if Nintendo planned for this, but by having this double-villain trait, we get so many possible appearances for Ganon.
Something to note, in WW you never fight Ganon in his true form, he's always in his classic Ganondorf mode. And because he's been sealed in stone and submerged by an ocean, he's going to need some pretty hefty magic to make a comeback. Now, we all know Ganondorf is the weaker of the two forms, so my guess is he will come back, but will only be able to do so as a big, bad, beast. Sea monster, anyone?
Post by: couchmonkey on April 09, 2003, 06:55:40 AM
Post by: ExtremeGcube on April 10, 2003, 10:42:18 AM
Post by: nitsu niflheim on April 10, 2003, 11:05:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: yellowfellow
the answer can be found in:
http://cube.ign.com/articles/379/379358p2.html
like miyamoto says, there are two dimensions; one where link is an adult and the one where he goes back to being a child.
since miyamoto says that WW takes place after the dimension where adult link left off, perhaps the other zelda games can take off from the timeline of link returning to his childhood.
therefore, two separate paths in the zelda dimension which can exist at the same time.
There being two dimensions is an easy way out of establishing the story. Why is there all of a sudden a second dimension when there has never been. This is a fanasty series, not a sci-fi series. I don't buy the 2nd dimension. Neither the story nor the ending of Ocarina had anything to do with alternate dimensions therefor there isn't one now.
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 10, 2003, 01:20:43 PM
No no no- think about it. At the end of Ocarina of Time, Zelda sends Link back to his original time as a child. In that time, Ganondorf doesn't exist and hence neither do many of the turmoils that have plagued Hyrule for a while. However, it was ONLY Link that was sent back in time- Zelda, the sages, Ganondorf, Hyrule, they are all still there. When Link went back in time, he ceased to exist in the main timeline (with Zelda and co.) and only existed in the second timeline, the alternate dimension. That's where Majora's Mask takes place. But the rest of the Zelda games stem from the main timeline, where Ganon is still a very real threat. On that timeline you have Wind Waker, then A Link to the Past (and it's gaiden Link's Awakening), then Legend of Zelda (and it's gaiden Adventure's of Link). They all follow Ocarina of Time directly- they involve the same world and people with the sole exception of the original Link. That's why in Wind Waker it says when Ganon returned, Link was not there to defeat him because he didn't EXIST in that dimension, only in the dimension that began with Majora's Mask (which is the only game that took palce in the "alternate dimension"). Even if it was invented soley to make a plot fit (I mean, it is pretty obvious that Miyamoto doesn't take great care in making their stories fit), it wouldn't work because it wouldn't put into context ANY other Zelda game- you could just as easily have said Majora's Mask literally took place after Ocarina of Time (or at least during). However, the branching timeline does make more sense if you think about it.
Okiva- You're wrong about Wind Waker being last. Besides the fact Miyamoto said it takes place only 100 years after OoT and directly follows it (you couldn't cram in every other Zelda game in one century), if you play the game it's quite obvious that WW does indeed follow OoT. I won't say any specifics since you haven't played the game, but you'll see exactly what I mean when you play the game.
Also, Four Swords was more of a mini game to me rather than having fodder (sp?) for the story. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.
Post by: Mike-OPN2000 on April 10, 2003, 05:40:42 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on April 10, 2003, 05:56:52 PM
And if you read what I said, a second dimension is perfectly plausible. Yes Zelda sent Link back to regain his lost time, but when he traveled back his timeline branched off from the one that occurred in OoT. Why would Zelda say she wanted Link to regain his lost time if he'd have to repeat everything he did against Ganondorf all over again? It's pointless. So in MM Link's timeline, Ganondorf doesn't exist, which means a second dimension was forme. The main timeline from OoT continued on to WW, LttP, LA, LoZ, and AoL.
Post by: Mike-OPN2000 on April 10, 2003, 06:02:32 PM
Post by: joshnickerson on April 11, 2003, 05:57:11 PM
This Gannondorf is probably toast now, though just like there are different Links and Zeldas, doesn't mean there can't be a different Gannondorf. Same with the Master Sword. Just because that one is buried under the ocean now, doesn't mean another can't be forged and infused with the power of the gods.
I dunno, just my two cents. I finally beat the game a little while ago, and it's pretty much all I can think of right now.
Post by: Gibdo Master on April 12, 2003, 08:31:28 PM
I really don't get some of the reasons people are against the multiple time period theory. It's fine if you don't agree with it but some of the reasons are kind of lame. For one thing Majora's Mask pretty much made it clear that multiple/alternate dimensions exist in the Zelda universe. Termina was sort of an alternate dimension of Hyrule. I also don't see why that sort of stuff is labeled as "sci-fi". I haven't heard of any official rule book that says that alternate dimensions and time travel strictly belong in the realm of sci-fi. One of the points of the fantasy genre is that you can do whatever the hell you please even more so than in sci-fi.
Post by: Grey Ninja on April 12, 2003, 10:40:34 PM
I actually bust into tears during the ending... The entire game, ending included can be described in one word. Perfect.
Post by: Rellik on April 13, 2003, 06:23:41 AM
The final boss, as in Gannondorf himself, was COOL, just not all that hard. I like how he said "I coveted that wind, I supposed"... makes him seem more human, but then you get to see that although he IS human, he's still fantastically evil and crazed. The actual fight was cool... everything had the perfect atmosphere. But the actual hitting him/letting Tetra zap him/reflecting it thing was a little off. I would've liked to see one final change in gameplay. As in, I think it would've been REALLY awesome to have a one-on-one all-out fight, no secret strategy or anything. But here's what would make it REALLY cool: when he attacks you, he would like dash over to you like he did when he stole your triforce-part, and then slow motion would ensue with you dodging each of his blows (or at least attempting... even in slow motion, it would take precision) and then attempting to hit him while he's recovering (which would be a very small window). Any time he does something, as in, whether he blocks, or he slashes, or he jumps, it would go into slow motion. The controls would be adapted to the slow motion, as in, it would be automatic L-Targeting during these segments, and instead of using normal jump and backflip moves, these are now sort of dives, as in, dive to the side with a quick recover, and instead of backflip it would be a back-lean, allowing the blade to go over you... now that would be a perfect boss battle.
When the king says "I have scattered the seeds for the future" I think he meant that when he wished for hope, he had spared Link and Tetra/Pirates and Medli and the Korok and Komali and all them. Apparently he spared everyone on Outset Island too. Anyway, I think that's what he meant... probably they just go off exploring and seeing what's left and planting trees to make new land and over time they form Hyrule again.
Oh, and that last dungeon was pretty awesome
concise.
Post by: joshnickerson on April 13, 2003, 08:59:09 AM
Post by: Chris150 on April 13, 2003, 01:41:22 PM
Post by: StRaNgE on April 13, 2003, 09:57:30 PM
what cracked me up was the fact like just in OOT that all the drama and bad stuff that happened was actually caused by the people who are suppossed to be the good guys.
They would just leave sh&t alone then hyrule would have stayed above ground, no one would have drowned and ganon would have never had to be trapped because he never would have got stuff started in the 1st place.
That would make a damn boring game though. lol
Post by: temjin11 on April 18, 2003, 09:07:28 PM
-Ocarina of Time
-Majora's Mask
-Oracle of ages/seasons
-Links awakening
-Wind waker
Now, the other games, I dont quite know where to put, but from what Ive read, there are different generations of zeldas for the older nes/snes games. So, everything else, in my opinion, had to have happened before ocarina of time, or before the windwaker. For example, I think the nes zeldas could have happened after majora's majoras mask but before the gb games. But since in oracle of ages, link is in Termina, wouldn't it make sense that that one came right after majora's mask and right before oracle of seasons? Links already there...why not? But, I'm not sure where to place link to the past, since it just seemed to be slapped somewhere in the middle without regards to timeline, and four swords is the only one I would consider right now to come after windwaker, because I can't tell where it falls with Vatti and everything.
But, I don't know...this is just raw opinion...and common sense.
Another thing: In windwaker, there are races of beings that apparently evolved, such as zoras evolved to rito, kokiri to korkos, you get the picture. Obviously this took thousands of years. it wouldn't make sense for something like windwaker to oracle of ages, because there is no probable connection.
But, it still puzzles me about what the hyrule king said...are the oceans going to drain? is hyrule going to pop back out of the water? I'm just lost in thought of the possibilities. If somehow hyrule gets revived, then everyone moves back, then I might just believe some of these crazy game orders people have made up, but until then I rest my case.
Please consider this, 'cause its been bugging me for over a month now. I'm just glad we can let free minds wander and stumble across the possibilities : )
Post by: Hostile Creation on May 02, 2003, 12:53:24 PM
Some of your theories are messed up. Hyrule is dead. The king is dead. Ganondorf is dead. It is unlikely, though possible, that they will come back. I'm not sure if a Triforce wish can cancel out another Triforce wish. However, in a future game I did imagine a Link delving into some deep, subteranean cave and finding a legendary sword in an ancient statue of an evil man.
Anyway, I expect some cool possibilities coming up with the following Zelda games. I found WW and everything about it to be totally satisfying, and anyone that did not should be shot of to the moon, no questions asked.
Post by: zumpiez on May 04, 2003, 01:08:34 AM
Seriously, when you start relying on theories like "Zelda V was asleep in the temple when Link III was rescuing Zelda III from Aganihm, so that Link IV and Ganon XVIII could open the black hole that led to Termina!" you have to accept that you're desperately floundering for something that isn't there.
Post by: Hostile Creation on May 04, 2003, 07:43:06 AM
Post by: Nile Boogie on May 12, 2003, 01:24:57 PM
The ending was good but I still belive that OOT had a better ending.
Post by: Zach on May 12, 2003, 02:37:15 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on May 12, 2003, 04:40:44 PM
Post by: Andu_Tros on May 18, 2003, 05:33:28 PM
Post by: Gem of Forest on May 24, 2003, 01:29:55 PM
Now to the topic. The only Zelda games I see having some connection to each other are the first NES games and Wind Waker is obvious sequel for Ocarina of Time.
I think the rest of the games have been as whole seperate stories, and you don´t have to know one to understand the other.
The first Legend of Zelda told the basic story as Miyamoto had seen it. Miyamoto wasn´t very involves in Zelda II. Although good game it can be classified as some sort of spin-off in the series.
Now we arrive to Snes era. Miyamoto could refine his vision of Hyrule with 16-bit power. A Link to the past is ultimately the same basic Legend of Zelda, but everything´s done in much bigger and better way than in the original.
Next step was to create a Zelda game for Game Boy, which has been quite a task and it came up very well. Being Game Boy adventure, Link´s awakening didn´t take place in Hyrule, and wasn´t part of the real main saga of the Legend of Zelda. If someone want´s to see this as a sequel for ALTTP, then it´s ok for me, because nothing in this game prevents this theory being true.
Now, Ocarina of Time. I thin that in this game Shigeru Miyamoto had tools to create the world of Hyrule as he had always seen it. In the 80´s and early 90´s technology just wouldn´t let him create anything like this. Like the orinal TLOZ and ALTTP, this game tells the basic story. As I said, I believe this is the Zelda game Miyamoto wanted initially to create. That´s why, this will always remain as the ultimate Zelda game.
I don´t believe Majora´s Mask would be sequel of any kind to OoT. Yes. Link was returned to his original time in OoT, but I don´t think this game explains what Link did after that. It was left for gamers imagination to decide what happned after that. Link just became the hero of Termina, and he doesn´t have to have any connection to the Hero of Time.
Seriously, how come any of you have even tried to place Oracle games to any sort of timeline? Nintendo and Capcom had idea to have a Zelda game that big so that it would be presented in two cartridges. Like in MM. Link has no connection to any of previous Zelda games. He´s hero who rises above among people.
As earlier said Wind Waler is obvious sequel to OoT. For the next Zelda game for GameCube, I realy don´t see any reason to continue this story, honestly, it woul make it seem a bit stupid. Also, I don´t believe the ocean and wind will play such major role in this game. It´s all experienced already.
Honestly, I find your attempts to bring Zelda games lots together a bit amusing. They´re all seperate adventures. Seperate legends. Please understand it.
Also, why is it so hard to believewhen Miyamoto-san and Kojima-san, creators of these games, say something. They say "tere´s hundred years between OoT and WW" or that there are several differebt Links". You guys just knock these words down like they would mean nothing. Come on guys! These are the creators of whole legend, and somehow I their words are much more trustwothy than our own spculations.
Post by: JonTD on May 25, 2003, 10:32:18 PM
QuoteI don't mean to be rude, but you are wrong here. First of all, they are only human, and humans make mistakes. It's impossible for one person to remember every tidbit of Zelda knowledge in their heads at one time. Over matters of speculation, their word is considered final, but the true resource for Zelda lore is not Miyamoto or any one other person. The source for all set-in-stone Zelda knowledge we have is the games themselves. They override all other sources (though even that information can change in later games).
Originally posted by: Gem of Forest
why is it so hard to believewhen Miyamoto-san and Kojima-san, creators of these games, say something. They say "tere´s hundred years between OoT and WW" or that there are several differebt Links". You guys just knock these words down like they would mean nothing. Come on guys! These are the creators of whole legend, and somehow I their words are much more trustwothy than our own spculations.
I once had a great English teacher who made us write in huge letters all across a single page of notebook paper, "The Text Is All." If the 'text' of the game does not support your argument, then your argument doesn't hold water and is thus utterly useless. The beginning text of Wind Waker makes the 100 years argument baseless. Here it is in full (emphasis is mine):
QuoteThe Hero of Time can be none other than the Adult Link from Ocarina of Time (at least, as of right now) and that story became "legend" after "generations." This is before Ganon returned and Hyrule was submerged under the sea to stop him. And now so much time has passed that the people themselves have forgotten that Hyrule existed. It takes more than 100 years before a story becomes legend and it takes a hell of a lot longer for a legend of a past kingdom to be completely lost among the population.
This is but one of the legends of which the people speak... Long ago, there existed a kingdom where a golden power lay hidden. It was a prosperous land blessed with green forests, tall mountains, and peace. But one day, a man of great evil found the golden power and took it for himself. With its strength at his command, he spread darkness across the kingdom. But then, when all hope had died, and the hour of doom seemed at hand, a young boy clothed in green appeared as if from nowhere. Wielding the blade of evil's bane, he sealed the dark one away and gave the land light. This boy, who traveled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Time. The boy's tale was passed down through generations until it became legend. But then, a day came when a fell wind began to blow across the kingdom. The great evil that all thought had been forever sealed away by the hero once again crept forth from the depths of the earth, eager to resume its dark designs. The people believed that the Hero of Time would again come to save them. But the hero did not appear. Faced by an onslaught of evil, the people could do nothing but appeal to the gods. In their last hour, as doom drew near, they left their future in the hands of fate. What became of that kingdom? None remain who know. The memory of the kingdom vanished, but its legend survived on the wind's breath. On a certain island, it is costumary to garb boys in green when they came of age. Clothed in the green of fields, they aspired to find heroic blades and cast down evil. The elders wished only for the youths to know courage like the hero of legend.
And do not forget that these people DO have written language. And so much time has now passed that the entire language has changed so that the current inhabitants of the 'Wind Waker' world can no longer read or understand (when spoken) the ancient tongue. 100 years does not hold water: it's false.
QuoteWell, as far as what we have to go on (because the games don't tell us anything here... though text from MM may clear this up), they are sequels. The storyline from OoT flows directly into Majora's Mask because the child Link is _not_ the Hero of Time and he _never_ was. When Link was sent back, Ganon was no longer a threat during his time and so he never did become the Hero of Time (remember, he was sealed away for seven years because only an adult could become the Hero of Time). His connection with the Hero of Time is that in an alternate future HE DID become the Hero of Time. That's confusing at first, but it makes logical sense.
I don't believe Majora's Mask would be sequel of any kind to OoT. Yes. Link was returned to his original time in OoT, but I don't think this game explains what Link did after that. It was left for gamers imagination to decide what happned after that. Link just became the hero of Termina, and he doesn't have to have any connection to the Hero of Time.
I don't see why the "multiple dimensions in time" thing is hard to put into the Zelda universe considering "A Link to the Past." There we had two worlds existing at the same time in different dimensions--one "dark" world corrupted by Ganon, the other kept safe from him through the power of the Triforce. It makes perfect sense for Adult Link in OoT to exist in the "dark" world corrupted by Ganon while child Link in MM to exist in the "light" world because of the actions of Adult Link. Again confusing, but logical and _STILL_ fitting in what we already know about the Hylian world.
For those who are trying to place story lines, the second Zelda game flows DIRECTLY from the first. It is the exact same Link, except now he is 16 years old. Though it's a bit confusing, two Zeldas actually existed in this era at once. It's explained that all women in the bloodline are named Zelda at birth... which also makes it clear why Ganondorf and King call Tetra "Princess Zelda" right away even though Tetra was confused about it. From the text of the game's manual:
QuoteIt's kind of interesting, because, from this, two things become reasonably clear: first of all, the original Legend of Zelda has to take place after the Ocarina of Time (because the kingdom has split) and second that the Wind Waker must take place _after_ the Legend of Zelda (unless sleeping Zelda's don't drown like the rest of Hyrule). The sleeping Zelda could not be revived, of course, because Link was sent back in time (and in A Link to the Past he is not an adult). It would be interesting to see how Nintendo would fit in a Zelda game after OoT but before the original Zelda that involves an adult Link and Impa.
At the end of a fierce fight, Link overthrew Ganon, took back the Triforce and rescued Princess Zelda. However, is it all really finished? Many seasons have passed since then. Hyrule was on the road to ruin. The power that the vile heart of Ganon has left behind was causing chaos and disorder in Hyrule. What's more, even after the fall of Ganon, some of his underlings remained waiting for Ganon's return. The Key to Ganon's return was the blood of Link - the valiant lad who overthrew the King of Evil. Ganon would be revived by sacrificing Link and sprinkling his blood on the ashes of Ganon.
Meanwhile, Link remained in the little kingdom of Hyrule and lent his hand to its restoration. But circumstances did not look very good. One day, a strange mark, exactly like the crest of the kingdom, appeared on the back of Link's hand as he approached his 16th birthday. The worried Link, went to Impa, Princess Zelda's nursemaid who was shocked and frightened when she saw the birthmark. When she regained her composure, she took Link to the North Castle.
There was a door in North Castle called "the door that does not open." Only the descendants of the Impa family who served the king knew how to open the door. Impa took Link's left hand and pressed the back of it against the door. There was a sound of a locking falling open, the door slowly creaked open and there on an alter in the middle of the room lay a beautiful woman. "Here lies Princess Zelda." Impa began to speak calmly.
"Link, the time has come when I must tell you the legend of Zelda handed down in Hyrule. It is said that a long ago, when Hyrule was one country, a great ruler maintained the peace in Hyrule using the Triforce. However, the king too was a child of man and he died. Then, the prince of the kingdom should have become the king and inherited everything, but he could inherit the Triforce only in part. The Prince searched everywhere for the missing parts, but could not find them. Then, a magician close to the king brought him some unexpected news. Before he died, the king had said something about the Triforce to only the younger sister of the prince, Princess Zelda. The prince immediately questioned the princess, but she wouldn't tell him anything. After the prince, the magician threatened to put the princess into an eternal sleep if she did not talk, but still, she said nothing."
"In his anger, the magician tried to cast a magic spell on the princess. The surprised prince tried to stop him, but the magician fought off the prince and went on chanting the spell. Then, when the spell was finally cast, Princess Zelda fell on that spot and entered a sleep from which she might never awake. At the same time, the magician also fell down and breathed his last."
"In his grief, the prince placed the princess in this room. He hoped that someday she would come back to life. So that this tragedy would never be forgotten, he ordered that every female child born into the royal household shall be given the name Zelda."
From the stand next to the alter where Princess Zelda lay in a deep sleep, Impa took six crystals and a scroll with the same crest and handed them to Link. "For generations, my family has been handed down these things which have been set aside for a time when a great king will come. They are written in an ancient script that no-one can read now. But you who have the crest may be able to read it. It is said that the key to uniting the Triforce is hidden there. Now it is time for you to read it."
Link glanced at the scroll half in doubt, but what do you know? Although he had never seen the letters before, he found that he could read them as if they were talking to him.
This was written on the scroll. "You who'll control the Triforce of the future. I shall hand down to you the secrets of the Triforce. There are three kinds of Triforce - Power, Wisdom, and Courage. When these three are brought together, the Triforce will show its maximum power. Of the three, I left Power and Wisdom in the kingdom. But the Triforce Courage I have hidden for a reason."
"Not everybody can use the Triforce. It requires a strong character with no evil thoughts. But an inborn special quality is also necessary. Unfortunately, I have not found such a person during my lifetime."
"Therefore, I have decided to cast a spell on all of Hyrule. A crest will appear on a young man with the character who has been brought up correctly, has gained many kinds of experiences and reached a certain age. But, what will happen if someone else uses the Triforce before then? If it misused, it will produce many evils."
"The Triforce of Courage is hidden in the Great Palace in the Valley of Death on the largest island in Hyrule. However, to enter there you must first fight the guardians and undo the "binding force." When you have defeated the guardians, which I made to prevent enemies from invading the six palaces in Hyrule, set a crystal in the forehead of the statue you find. When you have set crystals in all of the statues in the six palaces, the "binding force" places on the Valley of Death will be removed and you will be able to enter the great palace. There, you must fight the last guardian. And you can obtain the Triforce only by defeating the guardian."
"There's nothing to fear. You are the one to get the Triforce. You are the beacon of hope for Hyrule."
Impa implored Link, who raised his head slowly after reading the scroll.
"The magic spell cast upon Princess Zelda will sure to be broken if the Triforce is used."
"Please, Link. Unite the Triforce and save the princess. And bring back peace to Hyrule."
Link nodded silently in approval, and left the room after taking a long glance at the altar.
Then, with a magical sword in his left hand and a shield in his right, he set off alone on his long travels. At that time, Ganon's underlings were calling up new allies from the Underworld, and were beginning to work devilishly toward the revival of Ganon.
(Link, of course, is not considered to be the same during all of this. We just know that all Links arise from the bloodlines of the Hylian Guards. Though I think it's safe to say most of the Link's are in the same bloodline, though probably distantly in some cases. For instance, the family shield in Wind Waker... it is said to be _the_ shield of the Hero of Time.)
Edit: Lots and lots for clarity.
Post by: Gem of Forest on May 27, 2003, 01:12:28 PM
Quote
I don't mean to be rude, but you are wrong here. First of all, they are only human, and humans make mistakes. It's impossible for one person to remember every tidbit of Zelda knowledge in their heads at one time. Over matters of speculation, their word is considered final, but the true resource for Zelda lore is not Miyamoto or any one other person. The source for all set-in-stone Zelda knowledge we have is the games themselves. They override all other sources (though even that information can change in later games).
Umh. Yes. Naturally the games themselves are the source of all Zelda knowledge, but do you know what? These games didn´t come up just alone. These games had their makers. Aonuma and Miyamoto are the key persons benind Zelda, so it´s their word against our poor speculations, and I´bet for their word.
Post by: Ninja X on May 27, 2003, 03:07:40 PM
"I always put the story element last in a game..."
I cannot give you a link to that for I do not know the link anymore, but that is one of the most memorable Miyamoto quotes to me as of yet. You people know Miyamoto is one that definitely does not focus on story.
The Legend of Zelda is just that...a legend. Legends often do not link together. And I am sure multiple legends involving Zelda and Link exist. These are all just legends. I think Miyamoto put the word "Legend" in for a key reason. These adventures are different. They were all meant to be different. Even though they all relate to a central conflict, I do not think any of them were meant to link together in a deeply profound way. Yes, while some of the games do show links to other titles in the series, they were never deep links. I think that is why Aonuma or Miyamoto said "Each Zelda stars a different Link." I think, simply, these games are simply altered tales, like the ones told by story-tellers to children.
Your opinion might be different, but what makes the Zelda series revered is its gameplay and features. When thinking back to Ocarina of Time, I will bet most people remember it for the fantastic adventure it presented to the gamers. It was never meant to captivate the audience with its storyline. The story is just icing on the cake.
So then why is the Wind Waker different from other Zeldas in terms of story depth? The story, while not the prominent feature of the game, is relatively deep compared to the other games in the series. It could be from the fact that Eiji Aonuma is the director of the game instead of Miyamoto.
On this timeline thing...if any of you were to make a timeline, I suggest leaving out all the Zelda gaidens and Zeldas that released before Ocarina of Time. One of my theories is that Miyamoto wanted to restart the series on Nintendo's first 3D machine; thus, the Ocarina of Time. But why leave out the Zelda gaidens? Would Four Swords be included in the timeline? I do not think so...the game was created for people who wanted to play multiplayer Zelda (or for people who wanted LttP on the GBA). Nonetheless, the multiplayer game might have carried a story along with it, but the story was there just to make sense out of why four Links exist and to give the players a purpose for going on this quest. After all, the series has been heading into a more realistic approach.
On the Wind Waker ending...fantastic. One of the most memorable endings to date. Link and Ganondorf fighting with swords will be one of the most memorable moments of the Zelda series.
To finish off this rant, I have my own theories too about the storyline. But most of you here have to accept that the series was never meant to have a deep story. Lots of plot-holes surely exist, but more will come to exist simply as more games come out in the series because of two reasons:
1) All the adventures are simply legends. Legends are often altered and do not link, even legends relating to the same topic.
2) Miyamoto is not a big fan of creating storylines. He wants a game to be remembered for its gameplay rather than its story.
Post by: JonTD on May 27, 2003, 08:16:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Gem of Forest
Umh. Yes. Naturally the games themselves are the source of all Zelda knowledge, but do you know what? These games didn´t come up just alone. These games had their makers. Aonuma and Miyamoto are the key persons benind Zelda, so it´s their word against our poor speculations, and I´bet for their word.
You've missed it completely. I'm not arguing my word against Miyamoto or Aonuma. I'm comparing their word to the actual games, where their word comes up short. Therefore, obviously Miyamoto or Aonuma were in error.
If all signs point to east you do not go west.
Quote
I think one almighty quote destroys most theories here:
"I always put the story element last in a game..."
It's not whether or not the story actual fits or was ever meant to.. it's more like, "How does Zelda fit together IF it fits?" It is just a video game, after all. Tolkein put much more effort into creating Middle Earth and its history, but you can still find holes in it. A seamless Zelda would be expecting too much of Miyamoto and others... either that or the story itself is far too simplistic (which, if anyone here has actually tried their hand at drafting a story, would not allow for a world as rich as the Zelda-universe).
Post by: Ninja X on May 28, 2003, 11:31:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: JonTD
It's not whether or not the story actual fits or was ever meant to.. it's more like, "How does Zelda fit together IF it fits?" It is just a video game, after all. Tolkein put much more effort into creating Middle Earth and its history, but you can still find holes in it. A seamless Zelda would be expecting too much of Miyamoto and others... either that or the story itself is far too simplistic (which, if anyone here has actually tried their hand at drafting a story, would not allow for a world as rich as the Zelda-universe).
Perhaps...judging by the writings here, some people actually think that the story fits in some manner. Miyamoto is not that good of a story-weaver. If anything, the deep story in the Wind Waker was probably influenced by Aonuma rather than Miyamoto.
Post by: thejoemeister on May 31, 2003, 06:22:01 PM
This is my first post, so I'll try not to sounds like an idiot. I have a basic storyline for the next game.
As Tetra and Link sail across the seas, the wind suddenly stops. After a moment, Link pulls out the Wind Waker. He calls upon the wind to start again, but the Wind God (the frog that wasn't in the cyclone) appears and tells him that the wind has been stopped all across the land. After rowing for a short while, you dock at a nearby village that is far from the map of WW. When you arrive, however, the King of Red Lions' eyes open. The king has awoken in the boat which means that Hyrule is in trouble again. He tells you that a treasure hunter journeyed in a makeshift submarine and found Ganondorf and the sword. Realising it to be the sword of evil's bane from the legend, he takes it and returns to the surface. Ganondorf's seal of rock begins to crack open. The king tells you that to restore the wind you must find the hidden god of wind on the island you are currently docked at. After finding the other god or spirit of wind, he blows Tetra and you and your ships back towards the hidden world of Hyrule. When you arrive, you are raided from the sea by a something. He pulls you under the water, leaving Tetra and the king of red lions. You then fight the something (how???) and it decides to throw you far away after taking your treasure and items.
What do you think so far? Any problems?
The rest of the storyline basically says that Ganondorf uses his evil magic to restore parts of Hyrule from the water. He takes people from above and begins to make Hyrule his own. Link II has to find his way back to Tetra and Co...(how again???) and then he somehow must find the treasure hunter and retrieve the Master Sword. Then he must go down to Hyrule and reawaken the Sages of Old. He finds all the sages and they give Link medallions of sorts. After receiving all the medallions, Link has to unlock time itself. In a moment of incredible nostalgia, he returns to the temple of time moments after Link I enters. He then sees Ganondorf appear and enter the chamber to receive the Triforce, unlocked by the taking of the Master Sword. He can then be seen taking the emerald, ruby and sapphire and replacing them with fakes. Then you possibly have to revive the old race of the Zora, living below the second sea. That of Hyrule, and then finding the Gorons who locked themselves in Death Mountain and then back to Kokiri forest. Then somehow you face Ganon and win. The medallions, ruby, emerald, sapphire and the presence of the three holders of the triforce pieces (Zelda/Tetra comes down to Hyrule after the battle, create the Triforce once again and grant the holders one wish. They wish for Hyrule to be the land of happiness again, as it once was. Hence, the game, Zelda I begins.
This made very little sense because it's just what I would like to do in a game, not what would happen. Feel free to criticise, rewrite and so on. Thanks for reading!
PS. I know that someone's going to ask me how evil magic can undo a Triforce spell, but didn't the king wish only for the kingdom to be flooded, not to be trapped and sealed away forever? I may be wrong, but if I'm rght, then that's my answer
Post by: Rymir on May 31, 2003, 07:35:16 PM
"One day, quite by accident, a gate to the Golden Land of the Triforce
was opened by a gang of thieves skilled in the black arts." (LttP)
-This accident was Link opening the gate of time letting Ganondorf and his thieves (Gerudo) enter the Golden Land, the more you look at it OoT seems to be over a hundred years after LttP.
The only thing that bothers me about all this is that in LttP the Master Sword was forged to fight the power of the Triforce, but since we know this probably isn't the case, what was the Master Sword forged to combat?
I think it might be that there are three Links, though I'm still not positive. This is the order I'm currently working with: (I'm not including GB Zeldas since the aren't really part of the Gannon part of the series)
Original Holy Knight of the Hylia:
Orcarina of Time
Majora's Mask
Basically, the connection between OoT/MM (I hardly think MM is major to the plot line but that's alright) and Windwaker is that the hero talked about in Windwaker is the boy from Orcarina of Time, not the adult since they never hardly mention adult Link in Windwaker.
Second Hero:
Windwaker
After the Windwaker plot Tetra and Link probably settle off somewhere or another, but since this particular part of the series isn't yet half finished I will leave it at this, over time the Deku Tree's new world came to pass, a new Hyrule was crafted, and the new Hyrule's royalty was desended from either Tetra or both Tetra and Link. More likely Link was the royal guard and Tetra made up the new dynasty. WW Link's desendants would be Link's uncle and stuff. Another reason why OoT and LttP really don't connect is that Link was raised by the Deku's people in OoT but by his uncle in LttP.
Though the village of OoT and LttP have the same name it is possible that is was named after the original Hyrulian village, especially since the layout isn't even slightly the same, since Death Mountain and LttP's village are relatively distant from one another.
Third Hero:
The reason I see there would possibly be three heroes is the fact that in LttP, Zelda and Link don't know each other. Then comes the fact the Great Deku Tree's world would take hundreds of years to come to pass.
The new Hyrule can't be the old, well not exactly, since the locations are off, however, all Hyrules have a connection to Death Mountain, why? My guess is because it was the original place of the Triforce, as hinted in most Zeldas, even the first. So Death Mountain is the only permenant connection to the Golden Realm.
"LINK" isn't really the name of anyone, more or less, but a statement of what he is, he is a link between all times and deminsions in which the misguided triforce has wreaked havoc. More or less, LINK is the creation of the Triforce to balance the evil that Gannon released. (These are theories not proven)
LttP
LoZ
LoZ II: Link's Adventure
The last thing, ZELDA covers several different time periods, so is she the same princess somehow reborn or something? Or is that simply the dominant name for females in the Hylian dynasty? Which is possible since in some dynasties there have been several generations of Kings or Queens with the same first name.
Most likely Tetra and LINK start a new Hyrulian dynasty. Another interesting thing though is the title Hylian itself. The people of OoT Hyrule are often refered as Hylians, as does the manual call the main race of people Hylians, but in the LttP and other early Zeldas, the Hylians were the ancestoral race of Hyrule.
I have much more ideas and have decided to replay all the Zeldas to further research this, but I don't want this post to be one thousand pages long so I will stop now.
Post by: vudu on June 02, 2003, 12:44:21 PM
on a side note, how come no one argues about the order of the mario games?
Post by: Hostile Creation on June 02, 2003, 08:13:45 PM
