Post by: Jonnyboy117 on October 02, 2007, 09:13:28 AM
What I have been thinking about today is whether Wii has also been creating "Lapsed Wii Gamers", or Nintendo fans who bought the Wii but have long stretches between playing times because of the lack of compelling software on it. I say Nintendo fans because this effect probably wouldn't be seen with people who own other new consoles or a gaming PC.
Post by: ThePerm on October 02, 2007, 09:15:37 AM
Post by: Kairon on October 02, 2007, 09:26:33 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 02, 2007, 09:39:56 AM
Post by: TrueNerd on October 02, 2007, 09:40:26 AM
Post by: Svevan on October 02, 2007, 09:41:23 AM
Post by: Svevan on October 02, 2007, 09:42:41 AM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
One thing that bothers me is all the whining about Wii, do you guys realize how well we have it? We have great titles like Zelda, WarioWare, Mario Strikers, Excite Truck, Super Paper Mario, Metroid Prime 3, amongst others. For a first year lineup the Wii has been quite amazing, even some of the 3rd party efforts have been of high quality. If you want to see a system that has created lapsed gamers, look at PS3, the lineup is atrocius compared to Wii with MAYBE 3 great to good games, and many of those came out in the last few months.
GP, no one's whining about the Wii. We're just discussing the possibility of creating a new generation of lapsed gamers thanks to Wii's power to bring in people who never game. Do they care about WarioWare, Strikers, Excite Truck, SPM, or MP3? Nope.
Post by: TrueNerd on October 02, 2007, 09:48:56 AM
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Originally posted by: Svevan
I think there's a possibility, not from Nintendo fans, but from non-gamers: many of the adults I showed the Wii to (including my mother) asked me about the price, and if the thing were 50 or 100 bucks less they would've gotten it. If they had (and some of them did) on the strength of Wii Sports alone, where are they now? How do these new-gamers get advertised to? There was more advertising for Brain Age and Brain Age 2 than for Wii Play, and that's the only other piece of software I could recommend to a non-gamer, even a year later. I tried showing some of these adults Zelda, or Trauma Center, or other things, and they still seemed very far away and removed from their experience. Guitar Hero may be the next "un-game" to satiate these folk, and perhaps Wii Fit.
Now this I could see happening. Nintendo needs some games to help graduate these former non-gamers to playing more fleshed out games. I would venture to guess that Miyamoto meant Zelda was going to go in a casual direction when he said Twilight Princess was going to be the last Zelda as we know it. Phantom Hourglass could be a harbinger of things to come.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 02, 2007, 09:52:54 AM
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Originally posted by: SvevanQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
One thing that bothers me is all the whining about Wii, do you guys realize how well we have it? We have great titles like Zelda, WarioWare, Mario Strikers, Excite Truck, Super Paper Mario, Metroid Prime 3, amongst others. For a first year lineup the Wii has been quite amazing, even some of the 3rd party efforts have been of high quality. If you want to see a system that has created lapsed gamers, look at PS3, the lineup is atrocius compared to Wii with MAYBE 3 great to good games, and many of those came out in the last few months.
GP, no one's whining about the Wii. We're just discussing the possibility of creating a new generation of lapsed gamers thanks to Wii's power to bring in people who never game. Do they care about WarioWare, Strikers, Excite Truck, SPM, or MP3? Nope.
Who are we talk about, who is the "new generation"? Traditional gamers? If so wouldn't they be attracted to games like Metroid Prime 3? If we are talking about non-gamers, wouldn't games like WarioWare, Wii Play, Carnival Games, and a host of other games attract them? My mom enjoys all those games.
Post by: Svevan on October 02, 2007, 10:02:16 AM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Who are we talk about, who is the "new generation"? Traditional gamers? If so wouldn't they be attracted to games like Metroid Prime 3? If we are talking about non-gamers, wouldn't games like WarioWare, Wii Play, Carnival Games, and a host of other games attract them? My mom enjoys all those games.
It's both. The traditional gamer who put games away ten years ago, for instance, just got Metroid Prime 3. What did they have until then? Not a lot, I would argue. Non-gamers are not going to be attracted to WarioWare without someone helping them along, like a friend, relative, or an advertisement. In the latter case, hah, whatever.
It's an open question. Answer it how you like. Just don't derail the thread.
Post by: Kairon on October 02, 2007, 10:05:57 AM
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Originally posted by: TrueNerdQuote
Originally posted by: Svevan
I think there's a possibility, not from Nintendo fans, but from non-gamers: many of the adults I showed the Wii to (including my mother) asked me about the price, and if the thing were 50 or 100 bucks less they would've gotten it. If they had (and some of them did) on the strength of Wii Sports alone, where are they now? How do these new-gamers get advertised to? There was more advertising for Brain Age and Brain Age 2 than for Wii Play, and that's the only other piece of software I could recommend to a non-gamer, even a year later. I tried showing some of these adults Zelda, or Trauma Center, or other things, and they still seemed very far away and removed from their experience. Guitar Hero may be the next "un-game" to satiate these folk, and perhaps Wii Fit.
Now this I could see happening. Nintendo needs some games to help graduate these former non-gamers to playing more fleshed out games. I would venture to guess that Miyamoto meant Zelda was going to go in a casual direction when he said Twilight Princess was going to be the last Zelda as we know it. Phantom Hourglass could be a harbinger of things to come.
Yeah, I also could see this happening... and the only thing I can think of to stave it off would be a real dedicated large and consistent marketing push towards these demographics, and the inclusion of third party titles to fill in the gaps in Nintendo's non-gamer line-up. Maybe an overhaul of Nintendo's Marketting is needed afterall.
For example, third party games like Cooking Mama, My Word Coach, High School Musical: Sing It, and Carnival Games could all be rolled into a "Wii Game" ad campaign along with Wii Play, Wario Ware, and Mario Party. These games could be packaged together into commercials that advertise 2-3 games at a time, and also be grouped together in PR materials and show reels. Nintendo would handle the marketting costs for all this, while third parties with games that Nintendo deems eligible for the program could buy-in at a flat rate. I think that it only benefits Nintendo to develop and grow this consumer base for themselves and third parties on the Wii.
Post by: vudu on October 02, 2007, 10:07:58 AM
QuoteDid you read Jonny's post? It doesn't seem like that is what he was talking about. He seemed to be taking a stab at Nintendo's weak "hardcore" lineup by suggesting that people who have been gaming for the past 10+ years are going to suddenly become lapsed gamers because there aren't any good games on Wii.
Originally posted by: Svevan
GP, no one's whining about the Wii. We're just discussing the possibility of creating a new generation of lapsed gamers thanks to Wii's power to bring in people who never game. Do they care about WarioWare, Strikers, Excite Truck, SPM, or MP3? Nope.
Post by: Ian Sane on October 02, 2007, 10:17:59 AM
Well that describes me pretty well. I didn't buy a Wii at launch or had any interest in doing so because aside from a Zelda game I could and did buy for a console I already owned there wasn't anything that grabbed me. Now I've bought one for Metroid Prime 3... and that's all I have. I would probably like Super Paper Mario as well so I could get that. Other than that ummmmm yeah. I have not been as interested in Nintendo, and thus videogaming period, since Nintendo decided to make non-gamers a focus. The DS has been kind of meh to me as well. It seems like every game Nintendo makes now that doesn't turn me off with dumbed down non-gamer focused design is a sequel. Nintendo's attitude seems to be that traditional gamers like the established franchises, don't need new franchises and thus won't get them. All new franchises are focused on the new audience. Since the whole reason I became a Nintendo fan in the first place was because they usually kept things fresh this strategy is just making me bored with Nintendo.
Jonny do you mean that with the Wii Nintendo is alienating some Nintendo fans because of the non-gamer/casual/mainstream focus? Because if that's what you mean I agree completely. Nintendo's focus has changed and I think they risk trading one group for another one. Fortunately for them the new group is bigger. Unfortunately for me I'm in the old group and odds are most people here are as well even if they haven't realized it yet.
Post by: Svevan on October 02, 2007, 10:24:23 AM
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Originally posted by: Vudu
Did you read Jonny's post? It doesn't seem like that is what he was talking about. He seemed to be taking a stab at Nintendo's weak "hardcore" lineup by suggesting that people who have been gaming for the past 10+ years are going to suddenly become lapsed gamers because there aren't any good games on Wii.
You're right, I misread. But I think you're misreading it too.
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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
Everyone knows the Wii has been bringing back "lapsed gamers", or people who got bored/frustrated with gaming at some point in the past few years but whose interest has been reignited by the Wii controllers and casual gaming strategy.
What I have been thinking about today is whether Wii has also been creating "Lapsed Wii Gamers", or Nintendo fans who bought the Wii but have long stretches between playing times because of the lack of compelling software on it. I say Nintendo fans because this effect probably wouldn't be seen with people who own other new consoles or a gaming PC.
I thought Jonny's inference was that people who came back to gaming via the Wii may be disappointed by now, but he meant Nintendo fans (not "hardcore" gamers, as if Zelda or Mario is "hardcore").
As for Nintendo fans, hah, well I've seen this happen but it happens with every Nintendo console lately. "Lapsed Nintendo fans" have either two options: gut it out until the next big game (usually two to three months), stop gaming for a year or so (I've done this twice now, with both GC and Wii), or get another system. I think the first and the third options are more likely than the middle one, but I'm evidence that it happens. Most other people I know who have only a Wii (and are "Nintendo fans") just stop gaming, or play Halo with friends, while waiting for more stuff. Not everyone loves EVERYTHING Nintendo puts out either, so poor Karl who hates Metroid Prime is screwed (not that I'm sympathetic).
So yeah, I think I misread it.
Post by: TrueNerd on October 02, 2007, 10:36:39 AM
Post by: Kairon on October 02, 2007, 10:50:01 AM
Post by: ShyGuy on October 02, 2007, 10:51:03 AM
Post by: Kairon on October 02, 2007, 10:54:43 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on October 02, 2007, 11:47:18 AM
Bullseye. The "wait months between good games" routine is NOT typical Nintendo stuff we all should all expect and learn to deal with. The N64 and Gamecube were exceptions because they sold like sh!t. The NES and SNES were incredibly successful dominating consoles so the problem didn't exist. The problem also didn't exist with Nintendo's portables because again those were really successful machines (though the DS started off like that). The Wii is the market leader. It should have more in common with the NES and SNES than the N64 and Gamecube. On the successful Nintendo systems the third parties filled in the gaps between first party releases and they're not doing it here. In fact I think they did a better job of that in the first year of the Gamecube's life than they have with the Wii.
The fact that Nintendo now has to split their first party offerings between two different audiences makes it worse since essentially for both groups we get half of what we used to get. Combine that with third parties giving us crap (which then sells for some dumb reason thus encouraging them to give us MORE crap) and I'm interested in like three games a year, maybe four. So with a typical console life that's 20 games or less over the ENTIRE run. If things don't improve then of course there are going to be lapsed Nintendo fans.
Don't know what to do about the third party thing though Nintendo did start the whole last-gen port trend with Zelda. Still not everything is a last-gen port. A lot of it is just outright crap which even with their non-games Nintendo isn't really encouraging. Maybe the problem is that the new market's ignorance of good games has lowered the expected standards and third parties are just being dicks and exploiting it.
Post by: Kairon on October 02, 2007, 01:30:03 PM
Where's my Okami? Where's my Psychonauts? Why has it taken this long for Samba de Amigo to emerge? We've gotten RE4 and Rygar, why not step up with more wii ports?
Where's my gundam? Where's my mediocre early-life/launch rpgs? Where's my dynasty warriors and Koei whatever-they-make-now? Where's my darned MEGAMAN WII GAMES EVERY 6 MONTHS?!?!?!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 02, 2007, 01:34:07 PM
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 02, 2007, 01:51:08 PM
Post by: Kairon on October 02, 2007, 01:52:07 PM
Like I keep saying, I HAVE MONEY. TAKE IT FROM ME!!!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 02, 2007, 01:55:33 PM
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Originally posted by: Kairon
Well, even given all that GP, there's no question that Nintendo alone can't satisfy the breadth of gamers who are looking for Wii games. Nintendo's created a market, it's just that 3rd parties are FAILING at exploiting that market.
Like I keep saying, I HAVE MONEY. TAKE IT FROM ME!!!
Yeah Kairon, but all the 3rd parties are already taking that money from you and they don't even need to try!
Post by: Kairon on October 02, 2007, 01:58:31 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 02, 2007, 02:00:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
But what about the poor poor developers of Soul Calibur Legends? or Spider-Man Friend or Foe? I had to bump those games off of my budget... if those developers tried a little bit harder they'd have my money instead of Crash Bandicoot, Ghost Squad, etc. getting it!
Crash over Spider-man? I dunno what the final game will be like, but from what I played the game will lapse plenty of gamers from touching it for too long.
Post by: ShyGuy on October 02, 2007, 02:02:24 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 02, 2007, 02:09:29 PM
Post by: Kairon on October 02, 2007, 02:17:22 PM
Yeah, but with regards to Crash vs. Spider Man, I think that this is a case where marketting was the deciding factor. I was surprised to find out a couple days ago that Spider Man friend or Foe was coming out actually, despite the fact that I'd been curious about the game's concept and co-op play for the longest time!
Post by: Mario on October 02, 2007, 02:17:38 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on October 02, 2007, 09:44:38 PM
Post by: Svevan on October 02, 2007, 10:18:34 PM
OR DO THEY....?
Post by: BigJim on October 03, 2007, 01:43:47 AM
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What I have been thinking about today is whether Wii has also been creating "Lapsed Wii Gamers",
Nintendo has created lapsed gamers, yes. But it did not start with the Wii. I've considered myself to be a lapsed gamer for about 4 years. Not really by my own choice, but because Nintendo took a left turn once they reached the second year of the GameCube's life. After the 2002 list of heavy-hitters, they've been on a very slow path of (at best) seasonal releases that interest me. I would buy games every-freaking-month if they actually released stuff I wanted every month. It is really depressing to have this hobby I used to care a LOT about, and still WANT to care a lot about, but there's just nothing there to bite into.
The fact that third parties are failing to run with the ball makes it all the worse.
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Like I keep saying, I HAVE MONEY. TAKE IT FROM ME!!!
Amen.
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Is it just me, or is it kind of flawed logic that Nintendo is splitting their games in half. This year we got three huge titles,...
That's the problem. 3 huge titles, 10 months into the year = averages out to seasonal system usage, and that's if you want each of their huge titles, which is not always going to be the case.
Whether or not that has anything to do with them splitting their attention in half or not, I don't know. This issue preceded the Wii. But it's still a problem (whatever the cause) for consumers that don't want their system collecting dust so often. If Nintendo can't get 3rd parties to step up, then they need to do the stepping. They have not. Hence this discussion.
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We have to realize that Nintendo is now the 2nd richest company in Japan, they can now create MORE games of both casual and traditional.
They are #2 in sheer stock value and assets, but they have not demonstrated in years, including the past year, that they have the manpower to satisfy both audiences.
Post by: Deguello on October 03, 2007, 03:15:44 AM
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They are #2 in sheer stock value and assets, but they have not demonstrated in years, including the past year, that they have the manpower to satisfy both audiences.
Got any source or proof on that? I mean because otherwise it sounds like a pretty arbitrary statement considering Nintendo's record-breaking software sales these past two years on both the DS and Wii, which includes games like Brain Training and Mario Kart DS and Kirby and Wii Play and stuff. Unless you want to have another "definition war" as to what is hardcore and what isn't, where we arbitrarily list titles that we enjoy and denounce others in a totally new version of "my dad can beat your dad up" or "you don't love your mom as much as I love mine." This casual/nongamer/hardcore gamer "schism" is a total fabrication by the (god I hate to sound like Rush Limbaugh) 'hardcore' games media. *Blech* yuck. But, unfortunately, it's true. I mean check out that Phantom Hourglass review by 1up, the one with the ready-made fan-backlash damage control comment the second the review gets posted.
There something more going on with the way Wii games, and to a lesser extent, DS games are reviewed and talked about by major sites. Like some Wii games threaten their ideology of what a game should be and comfort level of how this generation should have played out. That's why we see the low scores on games the market obviously loves and the segmentation of non-gamers and "real" gamers. They don't like what Nintendo's doing in the games market, and they DEFINITELY don't like the fact that they are winning (before you jump in with how close it is, please note that only in America is the 360 decidedly ahead. In Europe it's almost a dead heat and in Japan the Wii is #1 with a bullet, having nearly a 2.5 million lead over the next highest competitor [PS3]). So they'll attempt to attack and segment, try to rate Nintendo into the ground and think they are writing the history of Wii, when it is actually the masses of consumers that are going to be writing the history.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on October 03, 2007, 03:26:42 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on October 03, 2007, 06:21:09 AM
Actually they're doing a great job of exploiting the market. They're not giving us their best stuff because they've realized they don't have to. What we're really asking is for them to be nice and give us their best games even though they can make good money with less effort.
Maybe the problem is the hardware difference. If you make a Wii game it's really only going to be able to work as Wii game. But if I make a PS3 game I can port it to the Xbox 360. So while the Wii may be the market leader the potential for total sales on the PS3 and Xbox 360 COMBINED may still be bigger than the potential sales for the just the Wii. The controller is way different and the hardware is way different. Odds are they CAN'T port a game from the other current gen consoles because the Wii lacks the hardware to do it so we get PS2 ports because the Wii is easily capable of handling that.
There are two versions of Splinter Cell: Double Agent. One is for the Xbox 360, PC, and PS3. The other is for the Xbox, Gamecube, PS2 and Wii. Why did they put the last gen version on the Wii instead of the current gen one? Well I'm guessing that taking the current gen version and downgrading it to work on the Wii is too much work so the we get the last gen version instead. The Wii has more in common with the last gen then it does with the PS3 and Xbox 360.
The PS3 may be a joke but the Xbox 360 isn't so good games are going to be designed on it. These games can be also ported to the PS3 but can't be ported to the Wii. Despite being the market leader the Wii is the odd man out.
"There something more going on with the way Wii games, and to a lesser extent, DS games are reviewed and talked about by major sites. Like some Wii games threaten their ideology of what a game should be and comfort level of how this generation should have played out. That's why we see the low scores on games the market obviously loves and the segmentation of non-gamers and 'real' gamers."
Since when does/should a review score have anything to do with what the market loves? The review is supposed to be a recommendation based on how good the game is not a popularity rating. Now we all know that some questionable reviews pop up but there is nothing wrong with a low selling game getting a good review or a high selling game getting a poor one. We see it all the times in movies. Every reviewer will say a movie is complete horsesh!t and that same film will be number one at the box office for that weekend. Meanwhile many great films do poorly at the box office and then later become cult hits on DVD.
Hell I don't even see anything wrong with being upset that Nintendo is doing well with games the review doesn't like. I HATE THAT. I don't want sh!tty games to be successful because that just means that MORE sh!tty games will be made. Do you think reviewers should change their taste in games to reflect what the mass market likes? Then the reviews mean absolutely nothing at all. I think it's good that regardless of what the market trend is reviewers are still giving good scores to games they like and bad scores to the ones they don't. If they don't like what Nintendo is doing then I think it's a pretty good chance that the reason for that is because they don't like the games being made so the score is accurate to their opinion. No one who loves WiiSports is giving it a lower score to try to kill what Nintendo is doing because if they love WiiSports then odds are they like what Nintendo is doing.
A few years ago when Playstation was number one if reviewers were giving better scores to Playstation games solely because those games were more popular everyone here would have freaked out and sometimes it seemed like that was happening. But now that Nintendo is number one their console should be cut slack because it's popular?
Post by: BigJim on October 03, 2007, 06:37:20 AM
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Got any source or proof on that? I mean because otherwise it sounds like a pretty arbitrary statement considering Nintendo's record-breaking software sales these past two years on both the DS and Wii, which includes games like Brain Training and Mario Kart DS and Kirby and Wii Play and stuff.
If you want to chest-thump sales, you'll want to visit the Wii Sales thread instead. We're talking about lapsed gamers. Consumers lapse primarily because of low satisfaction. "Record-breaking software sales" is not proof of satisfaction, or else lapsed gamers wouldn't be an issue and this thread would be moot. Such as it is, Johnny asked a valid question about lapsed gamers, and if Nintendo has contributed to it.
You can debate the why's and how's. But it doesn't sound logical for a company to not satisfy all audiences they target if they had the manpower to do so. So my belief is that they don't have it. And haven't had it since third parties bailed on the N64 (3rd parties are just as guilty.)
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There something more going onwith the way Wii games, and to a lesser extent, DS games are reviewed and talked about by major sites. Like some Wii games threaten their ideology of what a game should be and comfort level of how this generation should have played out.
I can't really imagine most of what you typed was pointed at me, but I wanted to respond to this point, at least.
My theory on the hardcore gamers is that most don't really care if Nintendo is expanding the audience. However, history has shown that there are too often dead months in between the games they want to play. They fear that Nintendo adding "expanded audience" projects in the lineup threatens them with even more dead gaps. So they (misguidedly) lash out against those types of games, as they are the "easy" target.
So far we have not seen larger gaps, but the gaps are still there. At the heart of it, it's not what Nintendo's doing, it's what they aren't doing... and that is filling the gaps. I don't think gamers really reject the ideals behind Wii Play and Brain Age. I believe they just want MORE Metroid, Mario, StarFox, Zelda, and fresh IPs that are attractive to them.
All that being said, Reggie made a good point, "How do you market Mario to a GTA fan?" You can't. What Nintendo is doing to some extent is putting the toothpaste back into the tube. Fine for new gamers, as they have no history to compare the games to. But by nature it is not going to be smooth sailing for all pre-identified gamers until they adequately manage these satisfaction issues. No positive sales data is going to change this, nor can it be dismissed as fabrication. Until then, the discussion will continue.
Post by: Kairon on October 03, 2007, 07:12:05 AM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Nintendo's created a market, it's just that 3rd parties are FAILING at exploiting that market."
Actually they're doing a great job of exploiting the market. They're not giving us their best stuff because they've realized they don't have to. What we're really asking is for them to be nice and give us their best games even though they can make good money with less effort.
Maybe the problem is the hardware difference. If you make a Wii game it's really only going to be able to work as Wii game. But if I make a PS3 game I can port it to the Xbox 360. So while the Wii may be the market leader the potential for total sales on the PS3 and Xbox 360 COMBINED may still be bigger than the potential sales for the just the Wii. The controller is way different and the hardware is way different. Odds are they CAN'T port a game from the other current gen consoles because the Wii lacks the hardware to do it so we get PS2 ports because the Wii is easily capable of handling that.
There are two versions of Splinter Cell: Double Agent. One is for the Xbox 360, PC, and PS3. The other is for the Xbox, Gamecube, PS2 and Wii. Why did they put the last gen version on the Wii instead of the current gen one? Well I'm guessing that taking the current gen version and downgrading it to work on the Wii is too much work so the we get the last gen version instead. The Wii has more in common with the last gen then it does with the PS3 and Xbox 360.
The PS3 may be a joke but the Xbox 360 isn't so good games are going to be designed on it. These games can be also ported to the PS3 but can't be ported to the Wii. Despite being the market leader the Wii is the odd man out.
I understand those issues, but what I'm really talking about is exclusive mid-range content. I'm still using as a personal indicator of success the idea of major mid-range smaller/niche company support. For example, I want the Wii to garner the umbrella of lesser known RPGs from companies like Atlus and Nis. I never played these games before because they were PS2 exclusive, which is why I'll see their Wii support a major breaking out of the Nintendo bubble. I can accept that the Wii will usually get ports of Need for speeds and Maddens and Mortal Kombats, but I want to see the Wii treated like the PS2 in this respect: the first choice platform for games that are quirkier, come from medium or smaller devs, and hanger-on franchises. I want to see developers who haven't "made it yet" try on the Wii. I want to see the Wii as a fertile, significant market for these sorts of games even though it may not be the ideal port machine for an XBox 360 or PS3 title.
Post by: TerribleOne on October 03, 2007, 09:16:02 AM
NOW..... what Nintendo fans are (shockingly) forgetting is that the same people who you criticized for goin out in droves to get GTA and madden are the sammeeee people who are buying into the wii now. Just because the wii has sold millions of copies doesnt make those consumers more important, but to Nintendo Corp., are more valuable than us long time fans. With that said, the market has shifted to attract these people and being this 'phenomena' has shown us that perhaps the wii will need another year to adapt to the fact that it's dealing with different demographics.
Post by: Kairon on October 03, 2007, 09:31:55 AM
Post by: Stogi on October 03, 2007, 09:46:31 AM
All I have to say really is that the Wii is a masterful machine and that I want Devs to at least TRY and use it to its full potential; not for profits, not for prestige, not for fame, but for the bettering of games everywhere!
Post by: Deguello on October 03, 2007, 10:03:33 AM
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If you want to chest-thump sales, you'll want to visit the Wii Sales thread instead. We're talking about lapsed gamers.
If you are aware of some other metric for measure this other than sales, I'm all ears. Otherwise, sales is the best metric. I mean polling a bunch of guys ont he internet isn't a good metric, and neither are reviews (most panned Mario Party 8, and yet somehow is doing smashing, as in twice as well as Mario Party 7, like the consumers are satisfied or something)
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My theory on the hardcore gamers is that most don't really care if Nintendo is expanding the audience.
This however requires a uniform definition of "hardcore" and there does not exist one. The market segmentation simply does not exist. It is simple "certain" hardcore gamers, some in positions of power, that are dictating this schism as if it was real because they ideologically clash with the results.
Post by: Ian Sane on October 03, 2007, 11:00:44 AM
What difference does that make? That doesn't make Mario Party 8 a better game than Mario Party 7 or better than any other game. No one here would have DARED suggest that sales mattered when Nintendo was getting royally creamed by Sony. Back then we were all trying to come up with logical excuses as to why Madden always crushed everything in sales while Nintendo's latest awesome game was getting completely ignored.
"It is simple 'certain' hardcore gamers, some in positions of power, that are dictating this schism as if it was real because they ideologically clash with the results"
There must be something since every time "what do we all think of the Wii" comes up on this forum there is always debate and arguments. At the very least I'd say there's a split among Nintendo fans. They split into two groups: those who like (or tolerate I guess) the direction Nintendo has gone in and those that don't.
There's no definition of "hardcore" because marketing executives have bullsh!ted the word. Microsoft used "hardcore gamer" as part of the Xbox marketing even though the Xbox was probably the most casual focused of the three consoles. So terms get blurred and end up meaning nothing. Everyone also categorizes games to fit their opinion. You in favour of what Nintendo's doing? Then you're going to try to make as big of a list of "gamer games" you can or you're going to retroactively declare old classic games as non-games to defend non-gaming's worth. Don't like what Nintendo's doing? Then the amount of non-games around is going to be bigger and no game you've ever liked in your life will be a non-game or have anything in common with one.
The topic is about lapsed gamers. Well since there is a split in opinion between Nintendo fans at the very least I can see a group of Nintendo's old fanbase leaving because they don't like what Nintendo's doing.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 03, 2007, 11:09:31 AM
Post by: mantidor on October 03, 2007, 11:38:53 AM
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Originally posted by: KashogiStogi
I don't really have an opinion one way or another.
All I have to say really is that the Wii is a masterful machine and that I want Devs to at least TRY and use it to its full potential; not for profits, not for prestige, not for fame, but for the bettering of games everywhere!
I completely agree.
My situation hasn't changed really, I still get few games, but I really want developers to try to be creative because the console is awesome, the little things like twisting a switch in Coruption are awesome, and thats just tiny, theres so much potential that I'm not seeing being tapped at all.
Post by: BigJim on October 03, 2007, 12:40:03 PM
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If you are aware of some other metric for measure this other than sales, I'm all ears. Otherwise, sales is the best metric.
So... you're saying there aren't lapsed gamers... because sales are good? Is this what you're saying? Because while I don't trust Nintendo's PR machine all the time, I'm fairly confident that Nintendo's not making up customers when they say (repeatedly) that they want to attract lapsed gamers.
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This however requires a uniform definition of "hardcore" and there does not exist one.
Not really. You can substitute "hardcore gamer" with whatever contextually accurate phrase that makes you happy. The point will still be the same. Whoever "they" are, they want less gaps between the games they want to play.
Post by: Luigi Dude on October 03, 2007, 12:59:50 PM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I hope the old group leaves soon because their whining and never satisfied demeanor gives me a headache.
I agree 100%. By the end of 2007, Nintendo's published lineup will have been the best since the SNES era. The complaints about not enough games for Nintendo fans is a poor one since since last year they've been releasing more then the N64 and Gamecube did in their first years. Yet because Nintendo announces something like Wii Fit all they can think about is Nintendo focusing on non gamers, even though Nintendo is just as focused on their traditional fanbase as they've been in the last ten years. If some people can't see that then there's no hope for them ever.
Wii's Nintendo published first year lineup for North America (Counting launch 2006 to end 2007)
Excite Truck
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Wii Sports
Warioware: Smooth Moves
Wii Play
Super Paper Mario
Mario Party 8
Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree
Pokémon Battle Revolution
Mario Strikers Charged
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Donkey Kong Barrel Blast
Endless Ocean
Battalion Wars 2
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn
Super Mario Galaxy
Link's Crossbow Training
Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
That's 19 games right there, and the only ones that can be considered non games are Wii Sports, Wii Play and Big Brain Academy. That's 16 regular gamer games then, which is much better then the N64 and Gamecube had in there first years.
N64's Nintendo published first year lineup for North America (Counting launch 1996 to end 1997)
Super Mario 64
Pilotwings 64
Wave Race 64
Killer Instinct Gold
Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire
Mario Kart 64
Blast Corps
Bomberman 64
Diddy Kong Racing
GoldenEye 007
Mischief Makers
Star Fox 64
Tetrisphere
Gamecube's Nintendo published first year lineup for North America (Counting launch 2001 to end 2002)
Luigi's Mansion
Pikmin
Super Smash Bros. Melee
Wave Race: Blue Storm
Animal Crossing
Disney's Magical Mirror Starring Mickey Mouse
Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem
Mario Party 4
Metroid Prime
NBA Courtside 2002
Star Fox Adventures
Super Mario Sunshine
So we have Nintendo releasing 16 gamer games for the Wii's first year, 13 for the N64 and 12 for the Gamecube. As anyone can see Nintendo has supplied more traditional games during the Wii's first year then they did with the N64 and Gamecube. This destroys the whole argument about them not able to give enough traditional games because even with them making games like Wii Sports and Wii Fit they're still able to supply just as many traditional gamer games as they've done for the last 10 year and in the Wii's case, MORE games.
Now people can start arguing about third party support, but no one in their right mind should say Nintendo themselves hasn't been doing their part because 90% of all the software they've released on the Wii so far is for traditional gamers. If anyone still thinks Nintendo making non games is bad needs to open your eyes because as you can see it's hasn't effected their ability to create enough gamer games one bit.
Post by: Kairon on October 03, 2007, 01:03:40 PM
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Originally posted by: BigJimQuote
This however requires a uniform definition of "hardcore" and there does not exist one.
Not really. You can substitute "hardcore gamer" with whatever contextually accurate phrase that makes you happy. The point will still be the same. Whoever "they" are, they want less gaps between the games they want to play.
And that still leaves third parties as the key to satisfying that need. They haven't delivered so far, let's hope they actually start delivering next year even though we know very little about 2008.
Note: No More Heroes comes out in the US in February. Let's hope that's an auspicious sign.
Post by: BigJim on October 03, 2007, 01:36:03 PM
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Yet because Nintendo announces something like Wii Fit all they can think about is Nintendo focusing on non gamers, even though Nintendo is just as focused on their traditional fanbase as they've been in the last ten years.
Not so ironically, I stated that the problem of volume has existed since the N64. 10 years ago.
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That's 16 regular gamer games then, which is much better then the N64 and Gamecube had in there first years.
That kind of presumes people were satisfied with those lineups, thus should be thrilled about this lineup. But as you well know, being a gamer game is not the only prerequisite to buying a game. It doesn't matter if it's 16 or 116 if they aren't products they want.
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If anyone still thinks Nintendo making non games is bad needs to open your eyes because as you can see it's hasn't effected their ability to create enough gamer games one bit.
I haven't seen anybody in this thread arguing about Nintendo's consistency. "Enough" gamer games is subjective, however. And I debate what that means because I believe they have not (in those 10 years) demonstrated that they have the manpower to fully pick up the slack in the face of weak 3rd party support. Therefore, the overall supply of gamer games has not been "enough". Nintendo is not big enough to do it alone. Third parties matter immensely, but they simply haven't stepped up.
When there are no longer dead gaps between releases that they want to play, that's when I believe there are enough. There is no exact number, we just know that there are gaps.
Post by: Luigi Dude on October 03, 2007, 02:02:25 PM
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Originally posted by: BigJim
I haven't seen anybody in this thread arguing about Nintendo's consistency. "Enough" gamer games is subjective, however. And I debate what that means because I believe they have not (in those 10 years) demonstrated that they have the manpower to fully pick up the slack in the face of weak 3rd party support. Therefore, the overall supply of gamer games has not been "enough". Nintendo is not big enough to do it alone. Third parties matter immensely, but they simply have not shown up.
But the point is with the Wii it's not Nintendo's fault for the loosely third party support. Nintendo has done a lot to try and get third parties back but if the third parties are too stupid then there's not much Nintendo can do. Plus since the Wii is the dominate system, Nintendo shouldn't to jump through hoops just to get third parties back anymore. In the past third parties always went to whoever was market leader, until now where they refuse to even though the Wii is the dominate system.
Until third parties finally wake up then all Nintendo can do is release their own software, but unlike the N64 and Gamecube, it's not entirely Nintendo's fault for it's system not having enough games. The blame this time lies mostly on the third parties which makes it the third parties creating lapsed gamers, not Nintendo.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on October 03, 2007, 02:40:02 PM
I agree with people who say that the mini-droughts of great first-party titles should have been filled by great third-party games, which have not really arrived yet. I hope that will start to change very soon.
Post by: Mario on October 03, 2007, 02:43:06 PM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I hope the old group leaves soon because their whining and never satisfied demeanor gives me a headache.
They will always be here, whining about anything is the absolutely easiest thing a person can do, and on forums they get their reward (attention) almost instantly. Not responding to them is the best way to deal with any threat of a headache.
Now i'm gonna play Sin and Punishment.
Post by: Kairon on October 03, 2007, 02:51:26 PM
Post by: TerribleOne on October 03, 2007, 03:19:17 PM
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Originally posted by: Luigi DudeQuote
Originally posted by: BigJim
I haven't seen anybody in this thread arguing about Nintendo's consistency. "Enough" gamer games is subjective, however. And I debate what that means because I believe they have not (in those 10 years) demonstrated that they have the manpower to fully pick up the slack in the face of weak 3rd party support. Therefore, the overall supply of gamer games has not been "enough". Nintendo is not big enough to do it alone. Third parties matter immensely, but they simply have not shown up.
But the point is with the Wii it's not Nintendo's fault for the loosely third party support. Nintendo has done a lot to try and get third parties back but if the third parties are too stupid then there's not much Nintendo can do. Plus since the Wii is the dominate system, Nintendo shouldn't to jump through hoops just to get third parties back anymore. In the past third parties always went to whoever was market leader, until now where they refuse to even though the Wii is the dominate system.
Until third parties finally wake up then all Nintendo can do is release their own software, but unlike the N64 and Gamecube, it's not entirely Nintendo's fault for it's system not having enough games. The blame this time lies mostly on the third parties which makes it the third parties creating lapsed gamers, not Nintendo.
I agree to some degree, but this is Nintendo's system and thus their project. They have no choice but to support it so that THEIR investment does not die. Third parties do whatever the hell they want, they dont have to follow any of our requirements, thats why they continue to support the PS3. Yes their sales are bad but they want to see their creation on THAT system.
and to those criticizing the 'whiners'.. shame on u.. lol @ u all of the sudden caring that peter's grandfather played the wii for 3 minutes. lol @ the change of heart towards the main consumers of a system, when it was the ps2 they were dumb drones, now they're the intelligent buyers... these 'whiners' were the 1 who stuck thru da thick and think when the purple lunchbox was one of the worst consoles ever....
....bring it
Post by: BigJim on October 03, 2007, 03:43:03 PM
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But the point is with the Wii it's not Nintendo's fault for the loosely third party support. Nintendo has done a lot to try and get third parties back but if the third parties are too stupid then there's not much Nintendo can do.
I agree to some extent. It's not entirely an act of developers having to come to Nintendo. But 3rd parties definitely dropped the ball, and clearly demonstrated a lack of vision (as many did). Nintendo could have done more for their part, including but not limited to releasing final dev kits earlier than 3 months before launch, and getting their online connectivity stuff together a lot sooner. I'm not sure anybody's hands are completely clean with the bumpy start.
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The blame this time lies mostly on the third parties which makes it the third parties creating lapsed gamers, not Nintendo.
Also an interesting point... But it's still Nintendo's problem, whether they are the cause of it or not. The onus is on them to solve it one way or another.
Post by: Stogi on October 03, 2007, 04:42:22 PM
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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
This turned into a pretty interesting thread. I admit, I did not think very hard about this topic before starting the thread, so it really was an open question. As I was hitting the "Post" button, I thought about the other side of the coin, which some people already brought up, that Blue Ocean Wii owners might also be lapsed because they have only bought Wii Sports and Wii Play and are getting tired of them.
Honestly, Johnny my boy, you could have made this into a hot topic.
Post by: wulffman04 on October 03, 2007, 06:08:41 PM
Hardcore gamers are not satisfied, and for what reason? As "Luigi Dude" pointed out, there are many more hardcore games out during the first year of the Wii than Gamecube or N64. That brings up the point that many of these game aren't as hardcore as previous entries in the series. e.g. Metriod Prime 3, the ads aimed toward new/casual gamers and the "hard" mode that you have to unlock are quiet concerning.
Also Nintendo fans want the Wii to succeed and are finding that it is (doing so well) because of the casual gamers. We would like to see more casuals step up to the plate and therefore have more casual games.
Nintendo needs to find a good balance where there are enough simple casual games and enough hardcore games, that aren't held back by publishers wanting to make them more accessible. Looking at some Super Mario Galaxy impressions, it really scares into thinking that it might be too simple(easy) for the more "hardcore" market
Post by: Mashiro on October 03, 2007, 06:27:14 PM
Am I the only one who sees that avatar isn't the right size?
Oh and lapsed games and stuff yeah!
*continue discussion*
Post by: Stogi on October 03, 2007, 06:33:33 PM
Post by: Deguello on October 04, 2007, 12:14:14 AM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"most panned Mario Party 8, and yet somehow is doing smashing, as in twice as well as Mario Party 7, like the consumers are satisfied or something"
What difference does that make? That doesn't make Mario Party 8 a better game than Mario Party 7 or better than any other game. No one here would have DARED suggest that sales mattered when Nintendo was getting royally creamed by Sony. Back then we were all trying to come up with logical excuses as to why Madden always crushed everything in sales while Nintendo's latest awesome game was getting completely ignored.
So your argument is that people on this board shouldn't care about sales because sales were bad during the Cube era? Look the reason sales matter in THIS CONTEXT (happy customers) is that obviously the market disagrees with the reviewers and are quite to very satisfied with the product. and what all of a sudden the Cube had awesome games? Are we forgetting what YOU said about the Cube during its time of release? Are you whitewashing that part of your whining history too?
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"It is simple 'certain' hardcore gamers, some in positions of power, that are dictating this schism as if it was real because they ideologically clash with the results"
There must be something since every time "what do we all think of the Wii" comes up on this forum there is always debate and arguments. At the very least I'd say there's a split among Nintendo fans. They split into two groups: those who like (or tolerate I guess) the direction Nintendo has gone in and those that don't.
There are two groups, but it is not "split" by any stretch. That implies equality in number, which there definitely isn't. There is a non-responder bias on message board complaints threads like this, as usually the content people don't need to jump into forums everyday to remind people of how happy they are. They usually just be happy and content with a product in the real world. Imagine this scenario, the hundreds of thousands of scientists that want to do something about global warming (because it is real) all get into an eco-friendly mag-lev train and the dozens or so of pundits and losers who disagree with the facts (genuinely or otherwise) pile into a custom conversion van with the worst emissions in history. furthermore, they haven't bathed in weeks. The mag-lev train is speeding along, and on the train they are discussing matters of import pertaining to global warming, while the van putters along and pollutes. Just because the people in the van fart the loudest and smell the worst, does not make them an equal group to the scientists because only few or so scientists that deign to argue with them about a reality while the rest are happy to continue their work to stop a global threat.
Oh yeah, I guess you could claim that the DS is the worst Nintendo handheld ever (which you have), and then say the forum is split there too. Split into groups of "Ian Sane" and "People who think Ian Sane is completely batshit bonkers."
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There's no definition of "hardcore" because marketing executives have bullsh!ted the word. Microsoft used "hardcore gamer" as part of the Xbox marketing even though the Xbox was probably the most casual focused of the three consoles. So terms get blurred and end up meaning nothing. Everyone also categorizes games to fit their opinion. You in favour of what Nintendo's doing? Then you're going to try to make as big of a list of "gamer games" you can or you're going to retroactively declare old classic games as non-games to defend non-gaming's worth. Don't like what Nintendo's doing? Then the amount of non-games around is going to be bigger and no game you've ever liked in your life will be a non-game or have anything in common with one.
The topic is about lapsed gamers. Well since there is a split in opinion between Nintendo fans at the very least I can see a group of Nintendo's old fanbase leaving because they don't like what Nintendo's doing.
Once again, two groups does not mean two EQUAL groups. But the reason there is no uniform definition of hardcore is because there isn't one. It changes from person to person and this was true before this whole crap about definition wars between gamers and non-gamers. RPG nuts do not think FPSs are hardcore. People like yourself do not think sports games are hardcore. And yet we hear the opposite from other people. It's just the truth. And now we have protective, defensive flap over how hardcore something is or is not like there are set dimensions where then aren't any.
And the thread doesn't seem to be about "lapsed Wii gamers" but more like "The Wii doesn't have enough <hardcore> games out." Which is a much more common, mundane, tired, old, and groan-inducing statement, but it sounds nice when you gussy it up with Nintendo marketing speak.
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So... you're saying there aren't lapsed gamers... because sales are good? Is this what you're saying? Because while I don't trust Nintendo's PR machine all the time, I'm fairly confident that Nintendo's not making up customers when they say (repeatedly) that they want to attract lapsed gamers.
But apparently there exists this amorphous, phantom-like group of Wii-lapsed gamers made up entirely of the 300 or so people who constantly complain about the Wii on the Entire internet, and their leaving the Nintendo fanfold is a major ripple in the market that is to be felt for generations to come.
There're probably more "Lapsed DS Gamers" than "Lapsed Wii Gamers." Don't hear too much from the first group though.
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Not really. You can substitute "hardcore gamer" with whatever contextually accurate phrase that makes you happy. The point will still be the same. Whoever "they" are, they want less gaps between the games they want to play.
Really?! I can substitute "hardcore gamers" with... say "non-gamers?" Well the non-gamers are pretty happy, I'd imagine. How about "Smash Bros. fans?" They're happy too (they don't have too many "gaps" to fill, basically because they only like Smash Bros.) And what point is this again? That there are Wii-lapsed gamers that can't be defined by any scientific metric but can be "felt" because people whine in the internet? Forgive me if I remain skeptical and continue to play Kirby on my DS.
Edit:
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and to those criticizing the 'whiners'.. shame on u.. lol @ u all of the sudden caring that peter's grandfather played the wii for 3 minutes. lol @ the change of heart towards the main consumers of a system, when it was the ps2 they were dumb drones, now they're the intelligent buyers... these 'whiners' were the 1 who stuck thru da thick and think when the purple lunchbox was one of the worst consoles ever....
....bring it
Have you slung a cog?
Post by: KDR_11k on October 04, 2007, 01:26:06 AM
I'm still not certain what this whole claim of lapsed Wii gamers is supposed to mean. People who got sick of their Wii? People who just haven't done anything on it recently? People who don't like how the Wii has developed recently and abandoned it because of that? Lapsed just doesn't sound like it just means "it's gathering dust because there are no new games I want".
Post by: BigJim on October 04, 2007, 01:45:32 AM
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But apparently there exists this amorphous, phantom-like group of Wii-lapsed gamers made up entirely of the 300 or so people who constantly complain about the Wii on the Entire internet, and their leaving the Nintendo fanfold is a major ripple in the market that is to be felt for generations to come.
Ironically, I see this kind of exaggerated, dismissive righteousness as a means to discard others' opinions more often than I see what you actually describe. This has been an intelligent thread. Let's not muck it up.
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And what point is this again? That there are Wii-lapsed gamers that can't be defined by any scientific metric but can be "felt" because people whine in the internet?
Lapsed gamers are not yet customers. That's why they're lapsed gamers. You can't claim there are no lapsed gamers just by virtue of the success that Wii's experienced thus far by the early adopters. To also synonymize these lapsed gamers with "whiners" you all to easily exaggerate and dismiss is also a pretty ridiculous retort.
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Really?! I can substitute "hardcore gamers" with... say "non-gamers?" Well the non-gamers are pretty happy, I'd imagine.
You either missed the part where I said "contextually accurate," or just want to be smart. If there's nothing else to contribute, let it go.
Post by: couchmonkey on October 04, 2007, 03:48:21 AM
Now on to the real question: Yes, Wii and DS are creating lapsed gamers. Ian is a prime example: he's not 100% lapsed yet, but he's practically there. Who will be a lapsed gamer?
1. People who can't stand motion controls. They're going to be lapsed within a generation because nobody will make a home console without them anymore.
2. People who pine for maximum graphical power and hours of cinemas. Nintendo is pointing the way here: you can make a whole lot more profit when you don't waste tons of money on the trimmings.
3. People who want long, hard, complicated, one-player games.
None of these are to say that we'll never again see a long, hard, single-player games with awesome graphics and almost no motion controls: but these types of games will take a back seat to simpler stuff that focuses on social gaming, and I believe future lapsed gamers will reject video games as a whole because they perceive the new gaming as either a personal insult to them (how can they do this to me, their loyal customer?) or as an insult to the passtime (kids these days don't know what a real video game is!)
Post by: oohhboy on October 04, 2007, 04:17:42 AM
I have no idea what everybody here is on about. The number of games that cater to the gamer crowd from Nintendo has not decreased. At the rate they are releasing games, they would have to make up new IPs unless they start making sequels well, before the expected end of this generation.
Seriously guys, I wish I could afford any of the action you guys are bitching on about right now. Here I am still stuck playing Goldeneye 64.
Post by: Nick DiMola on October 04, 2007, 04:23:14 AM
I think it would make more sense to open this up to "Lapsed Nintendo Gamers." Clearly there exists a group of fans who are no longer happy with the direction that Nintendo has gone with the Wii. But really, who cares? It doesn't really mean much. Every generation you will lose some people and gain others. Nintendo doesn't care about the lapsed gamers because they can just target a new market and continue on their merry way. Nintendo lost a ton of gamers when it moved into 3D.
If you don't like Nintendo anymore, don't support them. Real simple. Please though, don't whine about it on this board every opportunity you get. If you haven't liked Nintendo's direction since the N64 I think it's safe to say that it's time to move on, Nintendo does not make the games that appeal to you anymore, try your luck on a different console. All the rest of us have bent with Nintendo to see what else is out there, if you don't want to bend anymore, leave, simple as that.
Post by: BigJim on October 04, 2007, 04:42:37 AM
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The number of games that cater to the gamer crowd from Nintendo has not decreased.
This seems to be the common disconnect when the topic comes up. They're not really saying the number is less. They're only saying they want more, to end the droughts.
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Seriously guys, I wish I could afford any of the action you guys are bitching on about right now.
I can definitely sympathize and empathize with that. Been there many times. LOL.
Post by: couchmonkey on October 04, 2007, 04:57:30 AM
Post by: Plugabugz on October 04, 2007, 05:55:32 AM
Personally im disappointed in terms of releases - especially in the first half of this year, Excite Truck to Mario Strikers is too large a gap - But europe isn't exactly a good example given how much KDR and i dislike our continual shafting.
Post by: Ian Sane on October 04, 2007, 06:16:23 AM
But aside from Endless Ocean and the non-games ALL of those games are franchise games. There's no Pikmin or Eternal Darkness or Blast Corps. Nintendo thinks that the old group wants nothing but sequels and that's f*cking lame. The creative energies are towards stuff like WiiSports and WiiFit and Brain Age. That's where the passion is. I love Metroid and Zelda and Mario but I want more than that and frankly I'm getting a little bored of even Zelda. Phantom Hourglass just came out and I haven't bought it yet. I didn't even think of it until the day it came out because I played a new Zelda JUST LAST YEAR. The formula is starting to wear thin. Yet Nintendo just keeps pumping out the franchises. The whole reason I became a Nintendo fan is because they DIDN'T do that. They were always keeping things fresh. New IPs and the sequels they did make were often big major essential sequels that really pushed the envelope and often were released years apart. Now it's like every year SOMETHING is released with Link or Samus in it and Mario is in SIX of the Wii's first year of games while on the N64, where he seemingly was everywhere, it was only TWO and one of those is one of the most innovative games ever made. Now I don't expect Nintendo's franchises to maintain the level of creativity that they had ten years ago. Eventually the well will run dry. So if the next Zelda is a little derivative that's acceptable. But why is there so much Zelda product when the formula is running thin? Back when Zelda was still fresh we waited FIVE YEARS for a sequel. Now the formula is played and we get some Zelda product virtually every year. Shouldn't Nintendo be making something, I don't know, NEW to keep things interesting?
They are but it's WiiFit. That's what they're all excited about. The "gamer games" are milked franchises that are wearing thin. Now this has been a problem since "Where are you?" It's probably not even related to the non-gamer stuff, it's just a chronic problem made more irritating by most of the new ideas being used in non-games. I think it shows where Nintendo's priorities lie and what really interests them. Who cares if there are technically more gamer games than before if it's all Capcom-style sequelmania? It doesn't feel like we're getting more because so much of it is so stale. It feels like scraps because it's generic while the non-gamer stuff is fresh and innovative. That makes it feel like we're getting neglected because tons of franchise games feels like a token offering. It comes across as Nintendo going through the motions on something they aren't interested in.
Maybe I just have a lower tolerance of rehashing and it will just take longer for others to question why they're playing yet another Kirby game that really doesn't do anything Kirby Superstar did better years ago and why Nintendo is offering very little else.
Post by: Stogi on October 04, 2007, 07:11:08 AM
I'll I'm trying to say is, while you have a point, you would be bitching even more if Nintendo didn't release these games or at least have them on the back-burner. Now by years end, they will satisfy what I see as the "must-haves" for the Wii. I'm not talking about "must-haves" in the sense that I must have them; no, I'm talking about Nintendo and how they know they must have these games on their console just to appeal to their fanbase.
You see, not even Nintendo knew the Wii was going to blow up like it did and so, to at least have their fans buy the system, they needed to entice them with something that they knew was good and were familiar with. Games like Mario take a long time to make; do you really think that a few years ago, when Nintendo first started production on Wii games that they wanted to risk everything and make brand new IP's? No, of course. There going to make the Big 3 and make them good. Then at least if things go wrong they can at least have something people want to play regardless of how well received the system might have been.
Now that the Wii is a success and they have these games made, I assure you Nintendo will be more willing to fulfill our fanboy needs. You might be thinking, "how? with WiiFit?" and your right; Nintendo isn't making that game for you. They're making it ONLY because the Wii was such a break-out success and ONLY because WiiSports is the best non-gamer game, and the game to really change how games are perceived now-a-days.
At E3, they showed MarioKart and they showed the WiiZapper: a gamer's game, and a gamer's product. They probably thought that it was enough to keep the rowdy fans at bay since fans wouldn't want a balancing board or WiiFit (though I do), but apparently not.
I think this whole "Lapsed Gamer" idea is a little premature. And you guys can blame third-parties all you want, but it's not their fault. They were caught off guard even more so than Nintendo. I think this idea of Nintendo not making the games you want is ridiculous, at least right now. People need to calm down and wait till GDC, then bitch if they don't have any new IP's or drastically different sequels.
Post by: Maverick on October 04, 2007, 07:12:58 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on October 04, 2007, 07:53:33 AM
No doubt. Those are great games. And Super Mario Galaxy is going to be great too and SSB is DEAD ON with how Nintendo used to do sequels. I'm more uninterested in all the spinoffs and find myself less interested in the main series due to overexposure. Plus I just miss getting exciting new stuff like Pikmin was on the Cube.
"You see, not even Nintendo knew the Wii was going to blow up like it did and so, to at least have their fans buy the system, they needed to entice them with something that they knew was good and were familiar with. Games like Mario take a long time to make; do you really think that a few years ago, when Nintendo first started production on Wii games that they wanted to risk everything and make brand new IP's? No, of course. There going to make the Big 3 and make them good. Then at least if things go wrong they can at least have something people want to play regardless of how well received the system might have been."
This makes sense but the problem is I don't trust Nintendo to suddenly crank out the new IP because the expected sequels are done. Why? Because this sequel-mania has been going on for a few years now. You mention what's coming up and it's Mario Kart, a sequel, and the Zapper which launches with a Zelda spinoff. I personally am just sick of all the spinoff crap but it seems that between the "real" sequels that's what fills up the gaps. Between Mario and Zelda I want to play something different, not those same characters shoehorned into whatever lazy game concept they can think of. Hell sequels even become spin-offs. Initially Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi were sequels to Super Mario RPG. It was creative and exciting that each Mario RPG was totally different. Now both those sequels are their own series. Initially it seemed like Mario had a sports series with Mario Golf and Tennis being part of that series. Now those are also their own series. Ditto with Mario Strikers. All that Mario product alone just starts blending together and it all seems so forced and unnecessary.
I'm a huge Zelda fan and yet I don't care that that Tingle game isn't being released here and I don't plan on buying Link's Crossbow Training. I used to buy EVERY Zelda game. Now because I've grown tired of the same franchises again and again I'm skipping Zelda games and not caring. The annoying thing is that Iwata called this sort of sequelitis sh!t out with his blue ocean speech and yet Nintendo is doing NOTHING to address this problem. Their idea of addressing it is new ideas for non-gamers while the old fans still get the big blob of unoriginality that Nintendo claimed was killing videogames in the first place. In other words the new market is all that really matters. The solution was not to get the old market interested in gaming again but rather to replace it with someone else.
Post by: Plugabugz on October 04, 2007, 08:06:15 AM
Post by: BigJim on October 04, 2007, 08:56:11 AM
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I think this idea of Nintendo not making the games you want is ridiculous, at least right now. People need to calm down and wait till GDC, then bitch if they don't have any new IP's or drastically different sequels.
::raises hand:: I agree with much of your post but I have to interject on just this one comment. After E3, there were folks in the "Disappointed in E3" thread discussing the weak showcase of gamer titles. Others basically told them, "Let's compromise and wait until TGS before criticizing Nintendo's lineup."
We did wait (or at least I did). Nothing much came of TGS. So discussing the lineup is fair game, IMO.
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Mashiro: here's an idea, let's see what happens when TGS passes. THEN let's pass some judgement about Nintendo not showing us or delivering on their promise shall we?
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Kairon: If there's any better solution to this than a compromise of patience, an extension of the "where's-the-proof" deadline until the TGS in September, then I'd like to hear it. But that's the only sensible and rational answer I can come up with, hoping that patience really is the virtue everyone proclaims it to be.
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Pittboi: Yep, and WE ALL know what'll come next if Nintendo still doesn't show anything at TGS. "Wait until next year's GDC! GAWD! YOUR PROBLEM IS YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING NOW! GEEZ TROLL!"
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 04, 2007, 09:19:51 AM
Post by: Kairon on October 04, 2007, 09:21:09 AM
As for new IPs, I really don't care that much. The character on the game is window dressing. What I want are new EXPERIENCES. Whether that be with Mario or a purple dragon I don't care. Whether that be with the Killer 7 cast or Travis Touchdown I don't care. I don't mind sequels as long as they're fundamentally eye-opening and something I've never touched before.
So Nintendo can keep making Zelda games and Mario games for all I care. Just make each one NEW. (actually, I completely skipped NSMB because it just didn't look new enough to interest me... and I'm just NOT hyped for Mario Kart because Double Dash showed that the series was getting creatively bankrupt)
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 04, 2007, 09:34:01 AM
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Originally posted by: Kairon
Yeah, I have to compile my thoughts on third-party support Post-TGS one of these days... urgh
As for new IPs, I really don't care that much. The character on the game is window dressing. What I want are new EXPERIENCES. Whether that be with Mario or a purple dragon I don't care. Whether that be with the Killer 7 cast or Travis Touchdown I don't care. I don't mind sequels as long as they're fundamentally eye-opening and something I've never touched before.
So Nintendo can keep making Zelda games and Mario games for all I care. Just make each one NEW. (actually, I completely skipped NSMB because it just didn't look new enough to interest me... and I'm just NOT hyped for Mario Kart because Double Dash showed that the series was getting creatively bankrupt)
But buy the bottom of the barrel third party games, those are the ones to get hyped for. Sometimes Kairon you confuse me.
Post by: Ian Sane on October 04, 2007, 09:48:50 AM
Who says? Is Nintendo even trying? It's not like the only way to make a new style of gameplay is to make it casual/non-gamer focused. Hell just look at WiiSports. Is there ANY reason why the baseball in that game couldn't have been used for a full sized baseball game with seasons and teams and the whole bit (doesn't even have to be licenced; could be made up teams like Baseball Stars)? No. Nintendo chose to make it limited to attract non-gamers but the controller made it very fresh and different. WiiSports could have been made into four or five innovative games but instead Nintendo intentionally dumbed it down. Though to be fair they likely couldn't have got it done in time for launch if they didn't. There's no rule that the only way to make a gamer game is to reuse some old formula.
And while you may argue that that won't attract new gamers is there not a risk of repetitive rehashes turning away the older gamers? That's kind of what this thread is about. Why not attract the new gamers while making a serious effort to KEEP the old gamers? The whole thing just shows how non-gamers are all that really matters to Nintendo. They're not even TRYING to keep the old gamers. They just ASSUME we'll stick around for rehashes and stale franchises. Maybe most people will, for this generation at least, but they shouldn't and Nintendo shouldn't treat us that way.
"You people are acting as if creating a new IP is as simple as saying 'Hey, why don't we create a new IP'."
It's not that simple but that's all part of game design. If it's not a new IP then it's a new way to play a sequel or a new take on a genre. Or even if it's a cookie-cutter sequel it's new levels. Being a game designers means being creative. I wouldn't cut a songwriter slack if he couldn't write new songs. Hell they got this new Zapper and they came up with some sort of new game for it, it's just that they threw Link in there. "But if it's Zelda it will sell more." Well in the shortrun that's probably right but Zelda won't sell forever and new IPs need to be created for the future. Just look at how younger gamers love Halo. Of course they do. That's a franchise for their generation. They weren't even born yet when Zelda and Mario first debuted. Those franchises have to be created. So if you're making a new shooter game for the Zapper already why not TRY to make it something new. Zelda seems rather shoehorned in there anyway. Maybe the new IP will take off and in 20 years they'll be releasing endless spinoffs of THAT when Zelda no longer sells. It all has to start somewhere and each generation needs new franchises to become attached to. Pokemon would probably not have been as big it used an existing IP. For people in that age group Pokemon was theirs and that helped make it a big deal.
Post by: Plugabugz on October 04, 2007, 10:31:36 AM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Existing gameplay styles won't attract new people."
Who says? Is Nintendo even trying? It's not like the only way to make a new style of gameplay is to make it casual/non-gamer focused. Hell just look at WiiSports. Is there ANY reason why the baseball in that game couldn't have been used for a full sized baseball game with seasons and teams and the whole bit (doesn't even have to be licenced; could be made up teams like Baseball Stars)? No. Nintendo chose to make it limited to attract non-gamers but the controller made it very fresh and different. WiiSports could have been made into four or five innovative games but instead Nintendo intentionally dumbed it down.
Remember Pennant Chase Baseball? IIRC that was due a release AFTER Super Paper Mario so i bet that was quietly moved too.
Post by: IceCold on October 04, 2007, 11:07:54 AM
QuoteOh damn. Please tell me that you're not referring to Kirby: Canvas Curse here.
Maybe I just have a lower tolerance of rehashing and it will just take longer for others to question why they're playing yet another Kirby game that really doesn't do anything Kirby Superstar did better years ago and why Nintendo is offering very little else.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that couchmonkey is right on two accounts. First, Nintendo has singlehandedly shifted the industry, and next generation we'll see the full effects. And also, the way people go through games like water these days always amazes me. I still have stuff to catch up on for the GAMECUBE, let alone the DS and Wii.
Post by: Ian Sane on October 04, 2007, 11:16:36 AM
I'm not. I just picked Kirby as an arbitrary Nintendo franchise.
Post by: Maverick on October 04, 2007, 11:17:17 AM
Post by: Kairon on October 04, 2007, 01:21:51 PM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
But buy the bottom of the barrel third party games, those are the ones to get hyped for. Sometimes Kairon you confuse me.
I will admit, I have a double standard. Much like 1up and most hardcore/mainstream review sites, I expect Nintendo games to be the pinnacle of everything ever made. Halo? It's pretty, got maybe one or two really new things about it, but like GoldenPhoenix often complains, it's true that the game doesn't really blow the hinges off of game design. An easy 9.5.
Oh, but Nintendo... Nintendo has to EARN that 9.5 or 10.0. I felt that Twilight Princess was overrated, I skipped out on NSMB, I even feel like Animal Crossing: Wild World was a failure! Although I chafe at 1up's recent score of 8.0 to Zelda:PH, I can't help but agree with a lot of their review points. And I conveniently gloss over any other hypocritical practices they may exhibit in other reviews.
It's a double standard, plain and simple. Nintendo games need to be perfect. Non-Nintendo games... they can get away with imperfections.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 04, 2007, 01:23:52 PM
Post by: Kairon on October 04, 2007, 01:39:11 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on October 04, 2007, 02:23:40 PM
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Originally posted by: IanSane
Is there ANY reason why the baseball in that game couldn't have been used for a full sized baseball game with seasons and teams and the whole bit (doesn't even have to be licenced; could be made up teams like Baseball Stars)? No. Nintendo chose to make it limited to attract non-gamers but the controller made it very fresh and different. WiiSports could have been made into four or five innovative games but instead Nintendo intentionally dumbed it down.
jdifjklfnmeikeMario Basketbsjkfsjfisojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengo igwgawineojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaengojfiosafojaiofsajfojfiosjaofjsaijnv sionsio jsaj isiosniovbjiji0we0t093wigio0ja ii0ebnmeagiwe oooengninmgionsoangb dssdngoanoigninbias dsog owiginsbndsionbvngndignoaeng
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I DON'T LIKE APPL-YOUR WIFE IS DEAD!
"NAH SHE'LL BE APPLES"
HAHA, WOW (WHOA!!!!!!!)
Post by: Deguello on October 05, 2007, 11:55:50 AM
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Ironically, I see this kind of exaggerated, dismissive righteousness as a means to discard others' opinions more often than I see what you actually describe. This has been an intelligent thread. Let's not muck it up.
I think that's the point, dude. You are in the severe minority on the internet as well. And no backhanded insults, please. Or... you know, you can keep on with them. That's fine.
Couchmonkey:
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and I believe future lapsed gamers will reject video games as a whole because they perceive the new gaming as either a personal insult to them (how can they do this to me, their loyal customer?) or as an insult to the passtime (kids these days don't know what a real video game is!)
I wish they would do this much quicker so that nobody has to read their sandwich boards on the street corners.
Post by: BigJim on October 05, 2007, 03:07:34 PM
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I think that's the point, dude.You are in the severe minority on the internet as well. And nobackhanded insults, please. Or... you know, you can keep on with them.That's fine.
Then no more dismissive exaggerations. Deal?
I'm in the minority of what? Those that hate game droughts are a minority? Those that think droughts exist are a minority? Or those that think lapsed gamers exist are a minority? In any case, that's debatable.
Post by: LunaticFringe on October 05, 2007, 03:21:16 PM
I bought the wii with high hopes. Im glad at the sucess it has been having, but disappointed with the current game line up. I know its the first year, but still...
When I bought my Wii, I also bought Zelda. At the time I was in college, so Wii Sports was permanently stuck in my Wii for drinking games. Zelda never got much play. I bought Wario Ware thinking another party game that my friends wcould play when we pre-game to go out. They didn't "get" it. I think they were just completely weirded out. Fastforward to this fall, I bought Super Mario Strikers Charged. I played a little of it, its fun. Online is pretty cool, but leaves much to be desired.
The light at the end of the tunnel for me is Smash Brothers. That and Mario Kart are probably the reason I even bought a console in this gen in the first place.
All the games I have bought and intend to buy are first party. I think Third party just is not pumping out the quality games that they need to in order to sell the numbers that they want. I also think the Wii is inundated with party games because they are cheap and easy to make. Devs just want a quick buck out of these games and thats why they lack real substance. Again, I know its still been less than a year. But I dont even see anything of true substance in the near future.
Also the Wii's RPG line up is dreadfull, which dissapoints me.
First Party Nintendo games are always great because Nintendo always produces quality, its one of the reasons why I have grown up with the Nintendo systems all the way back to my NES back in the day. Third Party games just have left me very skeptical, especially in the recent past. Hence, I dont think third party games are gonna sell well unless they inspire people to go out and buy it. Only way that is happening is through producing a quality game.
Post by: Mario on October 05, 2007, 03:32:04 PM
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I bought Super Mario Strikers Charged. I played a little of it, its fun. Online is pretty cool, but leaves much to be desired.
Like what? It's one of the few games i'd give a perfect 10 for balance, features and gameplay.
Post by: Deguello on October 06, 2007, 10:50:59 AM
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Originally posted by: BigJimQuote
I think that's the point, dude.You are in the severe minority on the internet as well. And nobackhanded insults, please. Or... you know, you can keep on with them.That's fine.
Then no more dismissive exaggerations. Deal?
Ha ha ha ha! No no no no, son. You don't understand. This is not a negotiation. I am telling you not to insult me again. Me stating that there aren't significant numbers of whining people on the internet to cause concern and also are not equivalent in size to the content Wii owners is not the same as you underhandedly calling me unintelligent. Calling into question the rationale behind an opinion is not the same as calling me stupid, no matter how much sarcasm I use. In fact I'll dismiss your opinion again. Watch me. Here I am dismissing Bigjim's opinion. Maybe I'll use sarcasm. Welcome to the internet, BigJim. But if you insult me like that again, you'll find yourself an NWR-lapsed forumer.
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I'm in the minority of what? Those that hate game droughts are a minority? Those that think droughts exist are a minority? Or those that think lapsed gamers exist are a minority? In any case, that's debatable.
Follow the logic train. You said you saw more of these "dismissive exaggerations" than this "concern-trolling oh-my-god-Wii-creating-Wii-lapsed-gamers-and-oh-my-god-also-a-game-drought" types posts. That's because you are in the minority here. To show a similar example, there are just as many posts from "DS lapsed" gamers (In other words, people who think there's a DS game drought) on the internet and they are in the severe minority, so their opinions are dismissed with some exaggeration. You follow?
Post by: Kairon on October 06, 2007, 10:59:06 AM
Post by: Deguello on October 06, 2007, 11:03:18 AM
Post by: Kairon on October 06, 2007, 11:26:12 AM
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Originally posted by: Deguello
It was a rare occurrence of the dreaded Timed out Quadruple post.
One of you is scary enough, the very idea that there might be four of you out there in the world somewhere each at different terminals posting the exact same thing is enough to make me go to bed with a Wii Zapper.
Post by: Maverick on October 06, 2007, 11:40:13 AM
Post by: wandering on October 06, 2007, 12:29:13 PM
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Originally posted by: couchmonkey
Now on to the real question: Yes, Wii and DS are creating lapsed gamers. Ian is a prime example: he's not 100% lapsed yet, but he's practically there. Who will be a lapsed gamer?
1. People who can't stand motion controls. They're going to be lapsed within a generation because nobody will make a home console without them anymore.
2. People who pine for maximum graphical power and hours of cinemas. Nintendo is pointing the way here: you can make a whole lot more profit when you don't waste tons of money on the trimmings.
3. People who want long, hard, complicated, one-player games.
What about gamers who want long, easy, complicated, one player games? We won't be affected, right?
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Originally posted by: MarioQuote
I bought Super Mario Strikers Charged. I played a little of it, its fun. Online is pretty cool, but leaves much to be desired.
Like what? It's one of the few games i'd give a perfect 10 for balance, features and gameplay.
You know what I couldn't stand about Mario Strikers Charged? It wasn't the horrible framerate or the load times. It was the extent to which it twisted Nintendo's characters. Mario was too angry. Peach was too sexy.
Post by: Maverick on October 06, 2007, 12:52:09 PM
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Originally posted by: wandering
Peach was too sexy.
Blasphemy!
Post by: IceCold on October 06, 2007, 12:52:18 PM
Post by: Kairon on October 06, 2007, 12:54:14 PM
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Originally posted by: wandering
Peach was too sexy.
I would always break into a wide grin whenever she did that sashaying runway walk and the game's music went VROOOOMMM!!!
Post by: BigJim on October 06, 2007, 03:42:41 PM
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Ha ha ha ha! No no no no, son. You don't understand. This is not a negotiation. I am telling you not to insult me again. Me stating that there aren't significant numbers of whining people on the internet to cause concern and also are not equivalent in size to the content Wii owners is not the same as you underhandedly calling me unintelligent. Calling into question the rationale behind an opinion is not the same as calling me stupid, no matter how much sarcasm I use. In fact I'll dismiss your opinion again. Watch me. Here I am dismissing Bigjim's opinion. Maybe I'll use sarcasm. Welcome to the internet, BigJim. But if you insult me like that again, you'll find yourself an NWR-lapsed forumer.
I'd hardly call it negotiation either. I called you on your dismissive responses, which you willingly demonstrate. I then asked you not to muck up an intelligent discussion with it. That is not calling you unintelligent. All things considered, threatening me with the banning stick is pretty unfortunate. Are you really that upset by this discussion?
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Follow the logic train. You said you saw more of these "dismissive exaggerations" than this "concern-trolling oh-my-god-Wii-creating-Wii-lapsed-gamers-and-oh-my-god-also-a-game-drought" types posts. That's because you are in the minority here. To show a similar example, there are just as many posts from "DS lapsed" gamers (In other words, people who think there's a DS game drought) on the internet and they are in the severe minority, so their opinions are dismissed with some exaggeration. You follow?
You're still not being clear. But I THINK you're trying to say I am in the minority for thinking there are droughts and/or lapsed gamers.
If you want to talk about minorities, you're virtually the only one here who thinks lapsed gamers don't exist. Nintendo's money hats don't agree with you either. The consensus is not in favor of the "amorphous phantom group of 300" theory, so I think this dialog has about run its course.
But we get it. You don't think lapsed gamers or droughts exist. Fine. Cool. You're allowed to have those opinions if you so choose.
Post by: Ceric on October 06, 2007, 04:48:33 PM
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Originally posted by: wandering<Words where here so make some up> Peach was too sexy.
And now she has a Chubby Baby Star to show for it.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on October 06, 2007, 09:42:51 PM
Post by: Mashiro on October 06, 2007, 09:51:06 PM
Post by: Kairon on October 06, 2007, 10:16:22 PM
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Originally posted by: LunaticFringe
All the games I have bought and intend to buy are first party. I think Third party just is not pumping out the quality games that they need to in order to sell the numbers that they want. I also think the Wii is inundated with party games because they are cheap and easy to make. Devs just want a quick buck out of these games and thats why they lack real substance. Again, I know its still been less than a year. But I dont even see anything of true substance in the near future.
I actually agree with you and respect your decision, but it was quite awhile ago that I decided that I would NOT be the sort of Nintendo fanboi who whined about third party support and didn't buy third party games when the chance to do so was staring me in the face. I've bought my share of duds, but I've also discovered that I have more fun when I'm less snooty with games, and I'm more likely to discover little gems that I come to adore, like Cubivore and Killer 7 with the Gamecube, and Dewy and Alien Syndrome with the Wii. Yeah, everyone ignored Cubivore... but it was a refreshing breath of fresh air for me, and I'm doing my best to not judge books by their covers lest I miss out on some other poorly-treated third-party Gem.
Post by: IceCold on October 07, 2007, 12:33:46 AM
QuoteHonestly. This isn't a place to discuss games anymore, and it's been headed in this direction for a few years now.
Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey
Haha, imagine if NWR put this much effort into actually discussing games. It could even turn into a real forum again!
Post by: Kairon on October 07, 2007, 08:44:21 AM
Post by: wandering on October 07, 2007, 04:22:08 PM
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Originally posted by: Kairon
I actually agree with you and respect your decision, but it was quite awhile ago that I decided that I would NOT be the sort of Nintendo fanboi who whined about third party support and didn't buy third party games when the chance to do so was staring me in the face. I've bought my share of duds, but I've also discovered that I have more fun when I'm less snooty with games, and I'm more likely to discover little gems that I come to adore, like Cubivore and Killer 7 with the Gamecube, and Dewy and Alien Syndrome with the Wii. Yeah, everyone ignored Cubivore... but it was a refreshing breath of fresh air for me, and I'm doing my best to not judge books by their covers lest I miss out on some other poorly-treated third-party Gem.
Why did you limit yourself to Nintendo systems? Because you had high standards. You didn't want to support a company that was second best. And yet, what has that decision to severely limit the pool of games you can choose from cost you? It's forced you to constantly settle for mediocrity, to lower your standards. Don't you see the irony?
Post by: Crimm on October 07, 2007, 05:03:22 PM
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Originally posted by: Mashiro
Clearly someone hasn't seen the sock discussion on the Mario Galaxy forum!
SOCKS ARE TERRIBLE!
Post by: Kairon on October 07, 2007, 05:07:44 PM
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Originally posted by: wanderingQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I actually agree with you and respect your decision, but it was quite awhile ago that I decided that I would NOT be the sort of Nintendo fanboi who whined about third party support and didn't buy third party games when the chance to do so was staring me in the face. I've bought my share of duds, but I've also discovered that I have more fun when I'm less snooty with games, and I'm more likely to discover little gems that I come to adore, like Cubivore and Killer 7 with the Gamecube, and Dewy and Alien Syndrome with the Wii. Yeah, everyone ignored Cubivore... but it was a refreshing breath of fresh air for me, and I'm doing my best to not judge books by their covers lest I miss out on some other poorly-treated third-party Gem.
Why did you limit yourself to Nintendo systems? Because you had high standards. You didn't want to support a company that was second best. And yet, what has that decision to severely limit the pool of games you can choose from cost you? It's forced you to constantly settle for mediocrity, to lower your standards. Don't you see the irony?
Hmm! That is ironic!
But I don't see it as settling for mediocrity. I've played and enjoyed Mediocre games for all my life, starting with the NES' DynoWarz, IronSword, and Bard's Tale. What you don't realize is that I'm not searching for some holy grail: I've actually never been after "the perfect game." I'm searching for a sense of newness and wild discovery: I'm not a hardcore gamer as much I am an all-gamer. I'm not after the crystallization of a concept so much as I am after the emergence of a new one. This is why I enjoyed Pikmin 1 more than Pikmin 2, and why I haven't been blown away by any Zelda console games after OoT.
There's no question that one of Nintendo's hallmarks is quality, but that isn't the real reason I'm here. I'm here for the flipside as well, the other side of the coin: Nintendo's promise of new experiences.
*shrug*
Sometimes, that newness is buried in games that other gamers prejudge as having nothing to offer.
Post by: wulffman04 on October 07, 2007, 05:27:59 PM
So I guess my point is that a new game that has some very interesting concepts and polished gameplay can be crazed after and admired even though it may not be great. e.g. Bioshock, it was a very good game but they could have expanded it tremendously. Us as people though made it a "big deal" because we want something similar but better (a sequel).
Post by: Kairon on October 07, 2007, 07:21:21 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on October 07, 2007, 07:32:35 PM
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Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey
Haha, imagine if NWR put this much effort into actually discussing games. It could even turn into a real forum again!
Well, when you get criticized for having a high post count, just because you like to enjoy discussion on several different things, you see why NWR forums don't always cover things as well we could.
Post by: Kairon on October 07, 2007, 07:38:11 PM
