Post by: Svevan on September 21, 2007, 09:02:32 AM
Everything's political. Movies are political. Religion is political. Games are political. Life is politics - the root word is "Polis" which means city or citizenship. Perhaps we believe that our citizenship is a secondary aspect of our lives, and first and foremost we are "gamers" or "Christians" or "Democrats" or whatever. We are conveniently forgetting (or blindly ignorant) that each of these statements implies citizenship, and that citizenship cannot be "secondary" for it is primary. Our citizenship is what food we eat, what clothes we wear, where we go on Sunday, how we run our government, our cars, our bikes, our video games, our computers. Just ask Song Jong Nam, who is in prison in North Korea for his religion. Or Azadeh Moeveni who was almost imprisoned in Iran for a short time because of her dress.
Perhaps in America we are used to dichotomizing our lives into halves, or chopping them up into many bits. With the age of the Renaissance Man (over 600 years ago, yeah) we believed man should know everything - but now we teach "everything" in little sections and weigh the value of one segment over another, saying knowledge in art is not as valuable as knowledge of business, that entertainment is a distraction from "more important" things, that video games are just a subset of a culture, a tiny bit.
Ever consider that perhaps video gaming defines us? Or that it is at least is a mirror of a greater whole? Perhaps my video game playing is directly tied to my politics, and by association, my religion, and by association, my view of the larger world. Perhaps I am not a seven-part person who has seven interests but one person who is working out many different things because those seven pieces aren't different but the same.
Don't get political on NWR, because getting political might mean we actually talk about something. In the meantime, we can talk about games as if they had no impact or purpose outside of our living rooms. How sad is that?
Post by: Pale on September 21, 2007, 09:04:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Svevan
Don't get political on NWR, because getting political might mean everyone will end up looking like a jackass.
Fixed.
Post by: Svevan on September 21, 2007, 09:07:19 AM
Post by: vudu on September 21, 2007, 09:07:35 AM
Post by: Pale on September 21, 2007, 09:11:18 AM
I disagree completely. Politics suck. That is why we elect other people to worry about it.
The best politicians are those people that don't think they are politicians.
Post by: that Baby guy on September 21, 2007, 09:13:48 AM
Yeah, well, it was my mistake to begin with, because I started it out as a somewhat political issue, forgetting the forum's rules.
I always thought the exclusion of politics on the forum was meant to avoid unnecessary arguments that can occur when opposing believes clash. The way it is now, if I believe in such and such, and Vudu hates such and such, it's a non-issue and we can be friends, except when he's always not on my team in mafia.
Post by: vudu on September 21, 2007, 09:15:45 AM
Post by: Svevan on September 21, 2007, 09:18:27 AM
Post by: vudu on September 21, 2007, 09:20:51 AM
Can we discuss Jesus Camp?
Post by: ShyGuy on September 21, 2007, 09:24:11 AM
Post by: Pale on September 21, 2007, 09:25:37 AM
Call it censorship, but the world wouldn't function without censorship. We don't talk about politics here for the same reason you don't tell your 95 year old grandma to piss off when she does something annoying.
Is that really censorship? I call it being polite.
Post by: vudu on September 21, 2007, 09:27:51 AM
QuotePale wins the Internet.
Originally posted by: Pale
Is that really censorship? I call it being polite.
Post by: stevey on September 21, 2007, 09:28:19 AM
You locked the HAWTNESS thread after it was moved
And the tasing thread you moved got locked
The only way to get Karma back on your side is to unlock both threads
Post by: Svevan on September 21, 2007, 09:29:12 AM
Post by: ShyGuy on September 21, 2007, 09:36:19 AM
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Originally posted by: Svevan
Sounds like Hinduism.
fixed for extra controversial flava!
Post by: that Baby guy on September 21, 2007, 09:37:22 AM
Post by: wandering on September 21, 2007, 09:46:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Svevan
I'm not saying we should debate politics (because that does have unnecessary consequences), but admit that the political and the religious are not separate issues, divorced from the rest of human life.
How could we possibly talk about politics without debating them?
Post by: Svevan on September 21, 2007, 09:53:01 AM
However, "politics" are not just Bush v. whoever. Politics aren't just governmental issues or questions of nationalism. Politics are everyday life, and we quickly move from small questions (about games, tasing, art, the ethics of WWII shooters) into bigger ones. What's happening is that our smaller questions are being stifled because of their inevitable conclusion.
I don't think there's an actual solution, other than maybe a set aside "do whatever, sans porn" forum. I just think we've gotten really really political in past threads without ever recognizing it; we all live in "the city" in one form or another. We all embrace certain "cities" over others. Those presuppositions lead us to our tastes in games, among many many other things.
So I propose nothing, just wanted to throw out there the limitation of a "don't talk politics" rule.
Post by: ShyGuy on September 21, 2007, 09:53:39 AM
edit: but hey, if we all played nice, there would be no need for rules, right?
Post by: King of Twitch on September 21, 2007, 10:00:30 AM
Post by: wandering on September 21, 2007, 10:48:26 AM
Quote
I don't think there's an actual solution, other than maybe a set aside "do whatever, sans porn" forum.
I proposed something like that a while back....
http://nintendoworldreport.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=14&threadid=16375&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE=
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
I think there is a difference in intent. One could make a post talking about how Bioshock relates to Ayn Rand and Objectivism, and that's removed from simply posting "I hate Objectivism"
If you say "I hate Objectivism" you aren't debating, you're flaming.
Quote
Eye only seen vidyagames and pollatics rah lated when that Jack Thompson shows up 'n sez funny thangs
Take a look at this thread.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 21, 2007, 10:59:47 AM
Post by: Mashiro on September 21, 2007, 11:56:37 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 21, 2007, 01:04:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
Nothing got more political than the GP vs Mashiro debates over PS2 and SSBM.
PS2 represents democracy and SSBM represents communism ,which means it MUST die.
Post by: ShyGuy on September 21, 2007, 01:11:26 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on September 21, 2007, 01:21:34 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 21, 2007, 01:24:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: thatguy
Yep. That's why I graciously accept it when one of my topics is locked or one of my posts are edited. I know things could have been a lot worse, so I'm just happy at the discretion provided to us.
Really I think the moderators have a pretty good and yes, fair line drawn even if it isn't super clear. Usually the topics that get locked obviously have crossed the line.
Post by: Mashiro on September 21, 2007, 01:26:28 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on September 21, 2007, 01:52:30 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 21, 2007, 01:54:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Do Mashiro and GP ever get into the NWR chat room?
Never been there.
Post by: ShyGuy on September 21, 2007, 01:56:12 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on September 21, 2007, 02:02:48 PM
Post by: Mashiro on September 21, 2007, 02:12:57 PM
Post by: msharpee20 on September 21, 2007, 03:18:46 PM
Post by: UERD on September 21, 2007, 05:02:32 PM
Is it possible to separate the two? Because if it is, as the topic creator said, it would be a tremendous pity to throw out the latter in the name of controlling the former.
By the way, Evan, thank you so much for linking to something that most people know nothing about, but which desperately needs exposure in the West.
Post by: that Baby guy on September 21, 2007, 05:05:43 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 21, 2007, 05:45:59 PM
Post by: ThePerm on September 21, 2007, 08:16:42 PM
Post by: Shift Key on September 23, 2007, 02:01:24 AM
If this was asked 12 months ago (or less) I would have been in favour of it. Seeing it as an opportunity to open up new channels of discussion with the regulars on these matters would be appealing - most of the people here seem to be level-headed about these matters. But there always seems to be a couple of bad eggs which cause trouble, and when you talk about things like religion then you have a greater chance of offending others and producing a flamewar.
If it were asked now, I would say no. Those issues are (very) loosely related to what the forum is set up for - talking about games. Sure, there are other sections for general topics and stupid topics in the Funhouse, but lets keep those places civil and relaxed. I used to visit a forum which had a collection of political discussion and it was nearly always pointless and redundant - opinions that I'd known about before, arguments that were incorrect, just generally disappointing and full of flaming.
If you are interested in talking about that sort of thing, there are probably online communities out there that fill that void. I shoot the breeze with a couple of uni mates about politics and religion on an irregular basis instead of talking about Nintendo games. Then I catch up with the Pietriots and other people about Nintendo games. Svev may have a desire to talk about these things in a controlled manner on the forum but I recommend keeping it off the forum - its just a giant can of worms, we all know that.
Post by: ThePerm on September 23, 2007, 12:24:54 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on September 23, 2007, 12:46:51 PM
Post by: ThePerm on September 23, 2007, 01:27:42 PM
Post by: Svevan on September 23, 2007, 02:11:34 PM
Post by: Kairon on September 23, 2007, 02:16:01 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on September 23, 2007, 03:12:18 PM
Post by: ThePerm on September 23, 2007, 04:00:32 PM
Post by: 18 Days on September 23, 2007, 05:07:40 PM
Post by: Svevan on September 23, 2007, 06:07:50 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on September 23, 2007, 06:19:22 PM
Post by: Shift Key on September 23, 2007, 11:06:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ThePerm
the problem is with going to another community to talk about such things, you will not get to see what your pgc buddies have to say on the matter, thus you'll never really get to know them and their opinions. One of my problems with my real life buddies is that for years they just associated me as the game guy, I used t be the one that told them what to by, what system to get, knew when and what was coming out. Now I'm older, i don't like to be "typecasted" by friends. However now I'm typcasted as the Zombie guy.
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
I've always been known as the I.T guy among my school and uni mates. Every now and again, out of the blue, people ask me about this problem they've had with their computer. Or they'll ask me about Vista. Et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum. That's fine, I'll tell them what I think and give them a grain of salt in case they blindly trust me.
But the rest of the time, I'm just one of the guys. For example: I spent the weekend down at the beach with a few mates and I didn't once talk about computers. And it was great because we talked about almost everything else.
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Originally posted by: 18 Days
I was thinking about this, independantly of Svevan recently too. Lift the embargo on politics discussion, it was only there because BLodworth was afraid of being exposed as teh heartless, stupid, radical conservative he is.
You want to speak about your hatred of Bush and Howard? Bloody oath, I'm sure there's room on that bandwagon. Get original or get in line.
Quote
Originally posted by: Svevan
I can understand hating conservatism living in Australia, which, aside from some lovely landscapes and buildings, seems like a fascist place to live.
That's an awfully large brush you've just painted us all with. But feel free to keep that second eye closed if it helps you see the world the way you want.
Post by: 18 Days on September 23, 2007, 11:20:47 PM
Post by: Shift Key on September 23, 2007, 11:24:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: 18 Days
Oh so supporting Howard and Bush is being original then Shifty?
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on September 23, 2007, 11:30:07 PM
Post by: ThePerm on September 24, 2007, 08:01:12 AM
Post by: IceCold on September 24, 2007, 09:55:44 AM
Post by: Kairon on September 24, 2007, 10:13:34 AM
Post by: Svevan on September 24, 2007, 10:21:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shift KeyQuote
Originally posted by: Svevan
I can understand hating conservatism living in Australia, which, aside from some lovely landscapes and buildings, seems like a fascist place to live.
That's an awfully large brush you've just painted us all with. But feel free to keep that second eye closed if it helps you see the world the way you want.
I was actually hoping you or 18 Days would respond to my statement instead of brushing me off. I just said "seems like" based on what I've heard from other Aussies.
Post by: Shift Key on September 24, 2007, 07:50:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Svevan
I was actually hoping you or 18 Days would respond to my statement instead of brushing me off. I just said "seems like" based on what I've heard from other Aussies.
I brushed it off because it "seemed" largely unfounded. What makes us "seem like" a bunch of fascists?
Post by: 18 Days on September 24, 2007, 07:59:09 PM
Post by: Svevan on September 24, 2007, 11:04:22 PM
Not that I don't think we've gotten a little fascist over here too - both of our countries have government spying and indefinite detainment for those we don't like.
And I never said you were a bunch of fascists, no more than any fascist country is "a bunch of fascists." Fascism is government, or at least that's how I meant it. I'm sure it's a beautiful place anyway.
But I don't have a ton of knowledge, I was hoping to learn more. Sorry if my statement seemed dismissive of the issue. Perhaps in Australia your lives are untouched by the expansion of government and growing totalitarianism, as we are in the U.S. (unless you're an Arab-Muslim). Perhaps too your prime minister occupies a similar place our president does for the time being: reviled by a large and vocal group, but treasured by a large, quiet one too.
Post by: Shift Key on September 25, 2007, 02:31:51 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Svevan
Mostly that. Also some of the things I've heard about sedition laws (and that guy who got booted off a plane for wearing an anti-Bush t-shirt) and the typical "money owns the government" thing that we hear about in the US too.
Sedition smells like a thinly-veiled attempt at nationalism. It can probably be applied to a lot of gray areas under the umbrella of terrorism, but there definitely isn't as much of an interest in freedom of speech from the general public over here (well, not that I can speak of). It recently came to the fore when some mosques in Sydney were investigated for promoting extremist material.
Some guy who didn't like Bush and was wearing a "World's Number One Terrorist" shirt with Bush's mug on it decided to take a plane flight. Now I think the guy is smart enough to tell the difference between exercising his freedom of speech and looking for trouble (he was cautioned on an earlier flight) so I don't think he's got any right to feel he's being silenced. An aircraft in this day and age isn't the best place to talk about terrorism.
The current government (the Liberal Party) over here is known for its links to big businesses. Its been in power for about 11 years now (four terms of government). They're referred to as the white-collar party and have been in power largely due to the middle-class support they garnered in the late 90s. "Howard's Battlers" were the blue-collar workers who saw the economic boom times during this time as being associated with government control and supported the Liberal Party (partly because the Opposition has been in shambles in recent years) but this has been questioned in recent years as the cost of living increases, interest rates rise, housing affordability reduces and other factors which have affected a significant portion of the population.
So we currently have a situation where a large percentage of Australians are disenfranchised with the current government which has sat on its hands about major issues like climate change, health care funding, Aboriginal welfare issues, drought and water concerns and still continues to produce massive profits yearly, mostly from taxes. The situation is more interesting currently because the alternative government is inexperienced but lead by a person who seems to be immune to the usual dirt-slinging (the news that he was drunk and went to a strip club actually made his popularity rise) and, instead of deciding to have a radically different viewpoint to the current government, his platform is centred around emphasizing the issues with the current government but keeping his plans close to his chest at the moment.
If an election was held today then we would probably see a change of government, solely because the swing away from the Liberals has been significant, and it is expected that we will see an election being called within the next few weeks (which gives a campaign period of about 6-8 weeks so its nothing like the US-style elections). But instead the current government appears to be stalling for time to wait for a more favourable window with which to campaign.
That's the current Australian political landscape in a nutshell.
Quote
Originally posted by: Svevan
But I don't have a ton of knowledge, I was hoping to learn more. Sorry if my statement seemed dismissive of the issue. Perhaps in Australia your lives are untouched by the expansion of government and growing totalitarianism, as we are in the U.S. (unless you're an Arab-Muslim).
Nah, that's fine. I'd rather not speak to someone who is close-minded over this sort of thing - no matter what our viewpoints are, you get to throw thoughts and opinions around and come out at the other end with a better perspective.
I'll shoot the breeze later, but right now the vision is starting to blur.
Post by: Pale on September 25, 2007, 03:51:46 AM
Post by: ShyGuy on September 25, 2007, 04:43:56 AM
Post by: 18 Days on September 25, 2007, 05:21:38 AM
