Post by: Mashiro on August 09, 2007, 11:04:20 AM
The conversation thus far:
Strell said:
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You don't get to complain about art and design if you've got something anime inspired as your avatar.
I said:
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Wow really?
Yeah anime has nothing to do with art and design and is terrible. /sarcasim
Strell said:
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Well I certainly have a shortage of plucky young adolescent boys with wild long hair wielding swords where they save the world alongside their childhood female friend.
I really wish every company in the world would suddenly use that template as their RPG main character, because it's such an untapped resource.
Hey - maybe they could make the girl look like she's 12. That would be awesome.
I said:
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So because something is overly used you can make blanket statements such that anime or Japanese inspired animation =/= any sort of art and design?
Yeah good point man, well thought out!
Strell said:
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I'm sorry, is there a reason I can't?
Tired boring design in every RPG means I can't call it devoid of design?
You're right. When every RPG in the world features Cloud but with a different shade of hair, that's design at its best.
Let's go back to debating what sex appeal is, and about how if someone is in a skin tight uniform, that instantly means they can't be seen as anything more than sex object, because that's just the way things are.
I said:
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Oh really? Hang tight for a second while I prove how grossly over exaggerated your statements are (and once again how you blanket ALL OF ANIME into RPGS). Ignorance is bliss.
Edit: Oh I'll make a separate thread for this as to not derail this one. Continue one with sexy discussion
Sooo here we are.
To begin with:
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You're right. When every RPG in the world features Cloud but with a different shade of hair, that's design at its best.
So how many are cloud with hair color differences?
Post by: Bill Aurion on August 09, 2007, 11:22:15 AM
Post by: Kairon on August 09, 2007, 11:34:39 AM
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 09, 2007, 11:36:42 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on August 09, 2007, 11:41:24 AM
Post by: UERD on August 09, 2007, 12:53:25 PM
Although depictions of dead white guys may warrant an exemption.
Post by: Mashiro on August 09, 2007, 12:54:12 PM
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Originally posted by: UERD
You don't understand, Mashiro...it's not culture unless it was created by a dead white guy.
Although depictions of dead white guys may warrant an exemption.
lol /win.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on August 09, 2007, 02:20:39 PM
As for the "is anime art?" thing, I think... Well, actually, I have no clue. Wikipedia says this about art's description:
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Art is a (product of) human activity, made with the intention of stimulating the human senses as well as the human mind; thus art is an action, an object, or a collection of actions and objects created with the intention of transmitting emotions and/or ideas. Beyond this description, there is no general agreed-upon definition of art, since defining the boundaries of "art" is subjective, but the impetus for art is often called human creativity.
So, I guess anime is art. Then again, using that definition, I could take a dump on the floor and call it art, as it would inspire disgust.
I think art is anything that strives for beauty/greatness. So a painting masterpiece is art, but a printed set of pictures emulating that work poorly are not art. I consider history the finest poetry, written not in verse but in the lives and deeds of men.
So, if it's done to try and strive for greatness, then yes. If it's Dragon Ball Z clone #23435575, then no.
Post by: UERD on August 09, 2007, 02:37:16 PM
A Japanese person could do the exact same thing by calling all American video games derivative garbage, in the form of crappy science-fiction first-person shooters. And they'd probably be a good ways closer to the mark (although still awfully misinformed).
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 09, 2007, 02:39:39 PM
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Originally posted by: UERD
Saying that 'anime' (and I take the word to mean the entire collection of TV shows, movies, and video games done in that particular art style) is all derivative garbage because a limited sample (RPGs that have become popular in America) of a subgenre (role-playing games) within a genre (video games) of an entire artistic paradigm is at best grossly misinformed, and at worst grossly dishonest.
A Japanese person could do the exact same thing by calling all American video games derivative garbage, in the form of crappy science-fiction first-person shooters. And they'd probably be a good ways closer to the mark (although still awfully misinformed).
Actually I would say that the japanese person who says that about science-fiction FPS would be awfully INFORMED!
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on August 09, 2007, 02:48:52 PM
Post by: Mashiro on August 09, 2007, 03:44:29 PM
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To be honest, I do think a lot of the characters you posted in the picture DO have a resemblance. It's the hair, it all flows in spiley bits, not individual strands. Dunno, but that's just me.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of the "anime" styled characters share similar traits and do have a resemblance to one another at time for various reason (spiky hair at times, similar eye style, etc) but I think UERD sums it up best:
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Saying that 'anime' (and I take the word to mean the entire collection of TV shows, movies, and video games done in that particular art style) is all derivative garbage because a limited sample (RPGs that have become popular in America) of a subgenre (role-playing games) within a genre (video games) of an entire artistic paradigm is at best grossly misinformed, and at worst grossly dishonest.
A Japanese person could do the exact same thing by calling all American video games derivative garbage, in the form of crappy science-fiction first-person shooters. And they'd probably be a good ways closer to the mark (although still awfully misinformed).
Well said UERD well said.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on August 09, 2007, 04:22:01 PM
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Originally posted by: Mashiro
Don't get me wrong, a lot of the "anime" styled characters share similar traits and do have a resemblance to one another at time for various reason (spiky hair at times, similar eye style, etc)
I'm not saying it's a massive cliche, just pointing it out. After all, you get a lot of resemblances in Sci-Fi, too.
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Well said UERD well said.
I agree with everything he said except the them being more informed part. It's still personal bias. Both sides are equally stupid.
Post by: Mashiro on August 09, 2007, 04:24:33 PM
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I'm not saying it's a massive cliche, just pointing it out. After all, you get a lot of resemblances in Sci-Fi, too.
Yeah I know =) It's the same with any genre, you can only do something so many ways for so long before things start resembling one another in some way. But just the same, as you're saying, it doesn't make it bad or all the same necessarily.
Post by: Svevan on August 09, 2007, 08:48:12 PM
Post by: Pale on August 10, 2007, 03:32:13 AM
What?
Post by: couchmonkey on August 10, 2007, 03:47:45 AM
How about, not every cartoonist can be a Bill Watterson?
Post by: mantidor on August 11, 2007, 04:02:38 PM
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Originally posted by: Kairon
I hate you Mashiro for proving that Link is unoriginal.
You'd have to be blind, absolutely ignorant or a really die-hard insane Zelda fanboy to not see Link is the most generic character ever made. Probably the reason he's left-handedness is so cherished, is basically the only thing original about the character.
And the whole spiky thing goes way before FF, it saddens me its now called "cloud hair".
Post by: Ceric on August 11, 2007, 04:22:22 PM
I do have to say their is a lot of copying but, I think thats true about most media throughout time.
Post by: Mashiro on August 11, 2007, 04:25:57 PM
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You'd have to be blind, absolutely ignorant or a really die-hard insane Zelda fanboy to not see Link is the most generic character ever made.
Just curious, how many green tunic, big cap wearing warriors have you seen in other games?
Also well said Ceric.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on August 11, 2007, 04:47:29 PM
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Originally posted by: MashiroQuote
You'd have to be blind, absolutely ignorant or a really die-hard insane Zelda fanboy to not see Link is the most generic character ever made.
Just curious, how many green tunic, big cap wearing warriors have you seen in other games?
Also well said Ceric.
Santa's elves?
Post by: Mashiro on August 11, 2007, 04:49:17 PM
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Santa's elves?
Lol touche but I don't know if they qualify as warriors . . .
Post by: UERD on August 11, 2007, 04:52:22 PM
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on August 11, 2007, 04:54:09 PM
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Originally posted by: UERD
I don't know that Santa's elves ever starred in a notable (read: non-complete-garbage) game for any console, although they did star in a Robot Chicken episode in which they were involved with a cocaine-smuggling cartel.
"You ever seen a Yeti with a dozen condoms full of coke pop in his belly?"
YouTube Link for those who haven't seen it.
Post by: mantidor on August 12, 2007, 07:32:36 AM
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Originally posted by: MashiroQuote
You'd have to be blind, absolutely ignorant or a really die-hard insane Zelda fanboy to not see Link is the most generic character ever made.
Just curious, how many green tunic, big cap wearing warriors have you seen in other games?
Well, a tiny character called Peter Pan to begin with, which is merely 100 years old. Don't think the world of fantasy is limited to games. Its such an iconic character that it feels like the default fantasy hero.
That was one of the many neat things of the Wind Waker, going back to its roots with pirates, Link was only missing flying.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on August 12, 2007, 10:08:08 AM
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Originally posted by: mantidor
Well, a tiny character called Peter Pan to begin with, which is merely 100 years old. Don't think the world of fantasy is limited to games. Its such an iconic character that it feels like the default fantasy hero.
That was one of the many neat things of the Wind Waker, going back to its roots with pirates, Link was only missing flying.
Holy... You're right. I never thought of that. It's almost creepy.
Post by: Mashiro on August 12, 2007, 10:10:50 AM
I wouldn't go as far to say that makes link "generic" though. Maybe influenced by but not generic.
Post by: Kairon on August 12, 2007, 12:19:24 PM
This is why Zelda isn't about story. Zelda is really timeless mythos revisited, a sensation instead of a purpose, and an adventure instead of a lesson.
Post by: UERD on August 12, 2007, 12:23:27 PM
They should have made his tunic and cape flaming red, given him an AK-47, and turned him into a Communist revolutionary trying to free the oppressed people of Hyrule from the feudalistic rule of Princess Zelda.
Pointless originality FTW :P.
Post by: Ceric on August 12, 2007, 12:28:23 PM
