Post by: NWR_pap64 on July 30, 2007, 11:10:34 AM
Has anyone felt like this? Has anyone played a normal console game thinking that Wiimote controls could make it better? What games inspire this feeling in you?
I know many feel RE 4 feels better with a Wiimote and Nunchuck than with the GC and PS2 controllers, so there's a start.
Post by: LuigiHann on July 30, 2007, 11:39:07 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 30, 2007, 11:49:45 AM
video games cause violence
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 30, 2007, 11:51:09 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 30, 2007, 11:51:09 AM
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 30, 2007, 01:14:47 PM
One of my hopes, and I know it's not likely, goes like this. You know how reviews of Wii games when talking about graphics tend to mention how much better things are on the other two consoles? I really hope Halo 3's reviews say that the controls are good for a standard joypad but nowhere near as good as Metroid Prime 3.
Post by: EasyCure on July 30, 2007, 01:48:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: insanolord
Resident Evil 4 started it, and Metroid Prime 3 will push it over the edge. After that it will be extremely hard to aim with an analog stick instead of pointing and shooting.
One of my hopes, and I know it's not likely, goes like this. You know how reviews of Wii games when talking about graphics tend to mention how much better things are on the other two consoles? I really hope Halo 3's reviews say that the controls are good for a standard joypad but nowhere near as good as Metroid Prime 3.
Well Halo is coming out a full week before metroid so only late reviews would be able to compare
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 30, 2007, 01:51:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: EasyCureQuote
Originally posted by: insanolord
Resident Evil 4 started it, and Metroid Prime 3 will push it over the edge. After that it will be extremely hard to aim with an analog stick instead of pointing and shooting.
One of my hopes, and I know it's not likely, goes like this. You know how reviews of Wii games when talking about graphics tend to mention how much better things are on the other two consoles? I really hope Halo 3's reviews say that the controls are good for a standard joypad but nowhere near as good as Metroid Prime 3.
Well Halo is coming out a full week before metroid so only late reviews would be able to compare
Um I believe you are mistaken if you are talking about North America, Halo 3 doesn't come out until the 25th of September, while Metroid comes out August 27th!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 30, 2007, 01:53:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: insanolord
Resident Evil 4 started it, and Metroid Prime 3 will push it over the edge. After that it will be extremely hard to aim with an analog stick instead of pointing and shooting.
One of my hopes, and I know it's not likely, goes like this. You know how reviews of Wii games when talking about graphics tend to mention how much better things are on the other two consoles? I really hope Halo 3's reviews say that the controls are good for a standard joypad but nowhere near as good as Metroid Prime 3.
THat is why I think those that are saying the Wiimote will be a gimmick could easily be wrong. I think the Wiimote will end up being the future, slightly modified, yes, but the same principles behind it should stick if used properly.
Post by: EasyCure on July 30, 2007, 01:59:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: EasyCureQuote
Originally posted by: insanolord
Resident Evil 4 started it, and Metroid Prime 3 will push it over the edge. After that it will be extremely hard to aim with an analog stick instead of pointing and shooting.
One of my hopes, and I know it's not likely, goes like this. You know how reviews of Wii games when talking about graphics tend to mention how much better things are on the other two consoles? I really hope Halo 3's reviews say that the controls are good for a standard joypad but nowhere near as good as Metroid Prime 3.
Well Halo is coming out a full week before metroid so only late reviews would be able to compare
Um I believe you are mistaken if you are talking about North America, Halo 3 doesn't come out until the 25th of September, while Metroid comes out August 27th!
was halo pushed back? i could of sworn it was due 8/20, or sometime around then, and metroid was pushed back a week
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 30, 2007, 02:01:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: EasyCureQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: EasyCureQuote
Originally posted by: insanolord
Resident Evil 4 started it, and Metroid Prime 3 will push it over the edge. After that it will be extremely hard to aim with an analog stick instead of pointing and shooting.
One of my hopes, and I know it's not likely, goes like this. You know how reviews of Wii games when talking about graphics tend to mention how much better things are on the other two consoles? I really hope Halo 3's reviews say that the controls are good for a standard joypad but nowhere near as good as Metroid Prime 3.
Well Halo is coming out a full week before metroid so only late reviews would be able to compare
Um I believe you are mistaken if you are talking about North America, Halo 3 doesn't come out until the 25th of September, while Metroid comes out August 27th!
was halo pushed back? i could of sworn it was due 8/20, or sometime around then, and metroid was pushed back a week
Well if you go to ebgames Halo 3 is set for 9/25 and MP3 8/27.
Post by: EasyCure on July 30, 2007, 02:12:25 PM
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 30, 2007, 02:29:19 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 30, 2007, 02:40:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: insanolord
One might argue that Battalion Wars was pushed back because of Halo. It was slated for late September and then pushed back to October.
BWii > Halo 3!
Post by: Ceric on July 30, 2007, 02:45:33 PM
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 30, 2007, 03:40:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: insanolord
One might argue that Battalion Wars was pushed back because of Halo. It was slated for late September and then pushed back to October.
BWii > Halo 3!
I agree, but that doesn't mean anything against the huge retail storm that Halo 3 will bring.
Post by: UERD on July 30, 2007, 03:51:54 PM
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 30, 2007, 03:59:03 PM
I do think Wii controls can be better than Mouse/Keyboard; the mouse may be a little more accurate, but point and shoot with the Wiimote is more fun, intuitive, and immersive.
Post by: UERD on July 30, 2007, 04:01:00 PM
Quote
The Hardcore PC FPS fans will never ever come around to liking Wiimote controls, regardless of how good they are. They all look down on consoles, and I would imagine this is especially true of the Wii.
Agreed, but there are also a lot of people who played Resistance on PS3 and Halo on XBox. At least some of those people could be willing to give the Wii a try if someone released a 'real' FPS with quality controls and quality production.
Quote
I do think Wii controls can be better than Mouse/Keyboard; the mouse may be a little more accurate, but point and shoot with the Wiimote is more fun, intuitive, and immersive.
Depending on how they're implemented. Metroid 3 could be the gold standard for FPS-style controls on the Wii, which would be a good thing for third-parties.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 30, 2007, 04:09:43 PM
Post by: UERD on July 30, 2007, 04:16:11 PM
I would personally like to see an arcade space shooter like Freespace 2 for Wii. That Project Sylpheed game comes to mind...I mean, if Namco could take one of about three potentially exclusive and decent Gamecube RPGs and release an improved version for PS2, maybe S-E could do the same thing for Wii...as if.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 30, 2007, 04:34:08 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 30, 2007, 04:49:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: insanolord
If we were to get a space game on the Wii I want Factor 5 back and I want them to make the game that Rogue Squadron III should have been. The Rogue Squadron games took something like X-Wing and streamlined it to work better with console controls. That was great. Now, for the new game, do the same thing, but replace "X-Wing" with "TIE Fighter".
Are you sure about that? If what I'm hearing is right Factor 5 didn't do Lair any good.
Post by: Kairon on July 30, 2007, 04:56:58 PM
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 30, 2007, 05:11:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: insanolord
If we were to get a space game on the Wii I want Factor 5 back and I want them to make the game that Rogue Squadron III should have been. The Rogue Squadron games took something like X-Wing and streamlined it to work better with console controls. That was great. Now, for the new game, do the same thing, but replace "X-Wing" with "TIE Fighter".
Are you sure about that? If what I'm hearing is right Factor 5 didn't do Lair any good.
Well then maybe not Factor 5, but I want my Imperial-side arcade space game.
My complete never-gonna-happen space game fantasy is that Ambrosia Software will turn the Escape Velocity series into a 3D MMO on the Wii. (Or a version of Nova on the DS, I'm not picky as long as I get some new EV action)
If we're going the up-and-comer route, I say give the guys who did Heatseeker a bigger budget to do a great Sci-Fi game and make it a Wii exclusive. They had some great ideas about the control, and if you make the game look as good as it can on the Wii and add a little more depth to it, you could have something really great.
Also, put the Star Fox franchise in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 30, 2007, 05:12:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: insanolordQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: insanolord
If we were to get a space game on the Wii I want Factor 5 back and I want them to make the game that Rogue Squadron III should have been. The Rogue Squadron games took something like X-Wing and streamlined it to work better with console controls. That was great. Now, for the new game, do the same thing, but replace "X-Wing" with "TIE Fighter".
Are you sure about that? If what I'm hearing is right Factor 5 didn't do Lair any good.
Well then maybe not Factor 5, but I want my Imperial-side arcade space game.
My complete never-gonna-happen space game fantasy is that Ambrosia Software will turn the Escape Velocity series into a 3D MMO on the Wii. (Or a version of Nova on the DS, I'm not picky as long as I get some new EV action)
If we're going the up-and-comer route, I say give the guys who did Heatseeker a bigger budget to do a great Sci-Fi game and make it a Wii exclusive. They had some great ideas about the control, and if you make the game look as good as it can on the Wii and add a little more depth to it, you could have something really great.
Also, put the Star Fox franchise in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing.
Like put Star Fox in the hands of, I dunno, an IN HOUSE developer!
Post by: Kairon on July 30, 2007, 05:16:03 PM
Post by: Mashiro on July 30, 2007, 05:18:45 PM
Post by: Kairon on July 30, 2007, 05:28:02 PM
Post by: Rhoq on July 31, 2007, 04:23:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
Has anyone felt like this? Has anyone played a normal console game thinking that Wiimote controls could make it better? What games inspire this feeling in you?
Missile Command on XBox Live Arcade had me feeling like this. Actually, I felt so strongly about it that I sent an e-mail to Atari requesting that they consider porting it over with Wii-Mote controls as a "WiiWare" download in the future. I figure you can aim and move the reticle around with the IR and use the D-Pad to fire. Right on the D-Pad to fire the right cannon, left to fire the left cannon and down (or the "B" trigger) to fire the center cannon.
Post by: Ceric on July 31, 2007, 04:39:57 AM
Post by: Stogi on July 31, 2007, 05:49:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
If EAD decides to take Star-Fox back to greatness, I think they should really mean it. Star Fox should take Zelda's traditional spot as the late-in-the-console's-life-awesome-showpiece, and EAD should make that thing PERFECT with at least 2 delays and perhaps a fall 2009 release.
I COMPLETELY agree!
I want to control Star-Fox effortlessly through an asteroid belt, or even crazier, an underground river! I want the speed to be intense (I'm talking about F-zero fast), and I want the action to be spectacular. When a ship is hit, it should explode with a satisfactory "BOOOM!" I should be rewarded for flying extremely dangerously. If I swoop between collapsing rows of stone pillars, there better be an upgrade at the end. It should make it fly vertically, horizontally, and even upside down. Levels should take me from the ground to space and vice-versa, mixing up the environment almost constantly.
I don't know, I just picture it being a hell of a lot more intense than the flying games we see today. Why? Well you fly an interstellar space-ship for one.
Post by: therat on July 31, 2007, 06:20:35 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 31, 2007, 06:59:27 AM
The Wii has also shown how mini-games and simple sports games can become fun games by simple and engaging motion controls.
However, the Wii is limited in the number of buttons available to the gamer, and this either forces developers to map game actions to motions, force button mapping to uncomfortable or difficult to reach buttons, or drop features from the games that would be easy to impliment with traditional games.
Examples of this can be seen in many games, but I would argue non is more noticable than Metroid Prime 3's lack of quick weapon selecting which was a trademark of the series. Sure we won't miss it, but if the game was created for Gamecube it would have probably still been in the series.
Although there are problems with the Wiimote, and that traditional controls are still useful for many game types, including fighting games. The controller is not a fad, but the first generation controller that will led into the future.
The reason being is that it adds a feeling of true interaction with the game that has never before been achieved in a console game...much the same way that the DS adds greater interaction.
In to the future I believe that we will get the next Nintendo system with a greatly refined motion controller with better button placement and the potential to truly become BEST method to play all types of games.
Post by: EasyCure on July 31, 2007, 07:05:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KashogiStogiQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
If EAD decides to take Star-Fox back to greatness, I think they should really mean it. Star Fox should take Zelda's traditional spot as the late-in-the-console's-life-awesome-showpiece, and EAD should make that thing PERFECT with at least 2 delays and perhaps a fall 2009 release.
I COMPLETELY agree!
I want to control Star-Fox effortlessly through an asteroid belt, or even crazier, an underground river! I want the speed to be intense (I'm talking about F-zero fast), and I want the action to be spectacular. When a ship is hit, it should explode with a satisfactory "BOOOM!" I should be rewarded for flying extremely dangerously. If I swoop between collapsing rows of stone pillars, there better be an upgrade at the end. It should make it fly vertically, horizontally, and even upside down. Levels should take me from the ground to space and vice-versa, mixing up the environment almost constantly.
I don't know, I just picture it being a hell of a lot more intense than the flying games we see today. Why? Well you fly an interstellar space-ship for one.
starfox with a rewards system for being reckless ala excite truck!??! YES!
we need to dig up that old idea thread for starfox now that we know more about how the wii works
Post by: Kairon on July 31, 2007, 09:58:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
The Wii's controls are quite interesting. The Pointer feature literally gives developers the chance to completely revolutionize first person and third person targeting, as has been shown in Resident Evil 4 for Wii. And will be shown in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption.
The Wii has also shown how mini-games and simple sports games can become fun games by simple and engaging motion controls.
However, the Wii is limited in the number of buttons available to the gamer, and this either forces developers to map game actions to motions, force button mapping to uncomfortable or difficult to reach buttons, or drop features from the games that would be easy to impliment with traditional games.
Examples of this can be seen in many games, but I would argue non is more noticable than Metroid Prime 3's lack of quick weapon selecting which was a trademark of the series. Sure we won't miss it, but if the game was created for Gamecube it would have probably still been in the series.
Although there are problems with the Wiimote, and that traditional controls are still useful for many game types, including fighting games. The controller is not a fad, but the first generation controller that will led into the future.
The reason being is that it adds a feeling of true interaction with the game that has never before been achieved in a console game...much the same way that the DS adds greater interaction.
In to the future I believe that we will get the next Nintendo system with a greatly refined motion controller with better button placement and the potential to truly become BEST method to play all types of games.
Great post. God the next generation will be awesome, even if Nintendo isn't leading it, because the wii's innovations will have taken on a life of their own and proliferated throughout the industry hopefully, germinating in other companies for the next step in realizing their potential.
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
I want Privateer update and ported to anything.
You are awesome sir. Awesome.
Post by: Mashiro on July 31, 2007, 10:55:38 AM
Also I made it into someone's sig! /happydance Thank you Carry-on!
Quote
A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 31, 2007, 11:01:08 AM
Post by: UERD on July 31, 2007, 11:14:59 AM
Quote
Great post. God the next generation will be awesome, even if Nintendo isn't leading it, because the wii's innovations will have taken on a life of their own and proliferated throughout the industry hopefully, germinating in other companies for the next step in realizing their potential.
"Coming starting September 2010! 50 generic sci-fi shooters, now with all-new motion controls! Get them, only on XBox 720!!!!"
Of course, we could fall into that trap ourselves, with all the crappy mini-game collections and everything.
Post by: tiamat1990 on July 31, 2007, 07:23:41 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on August 01, 2007, 06:54:09 AM
I think everyone at some point played a PC port on a console and found using a controller instead of a mouse awkward. Sim City for the SNES is a great version with all sorts of neat extras but controlling it is a big pain in the butt. For years I've felt that a console shouldn't just come with controllers but also a mouse and keyboard. Both setups have different pros and cons and numerous games are designed for one setup and control like crap on the other. So offer both and all the bases are covered.
The remote is kind of like including a mouse. It has virtually the same benefits and it also has some extra motion control capabilities. Including it, or something like it, was a good idea. The problem is that Nintendo stripped away some of the functionality of traditional controls. Marketing got in the way of true progress. The remote was designed to be simplified for non-gamers. Now that has helped sales but the Wii does not have an ideal control setup. The fact that stuff like gestures are even used shows the flaws. The remote and nunchuk combo is missing important functionality and hopefully someday someone will get it right and provide mouse functionality and motion control in a package that doesn't sacrifice anything.
It's got to be what's best for each game and the Wii doesn't provide that unless a game fully supports the classic controller as well. A good setup should control 90% of all games ever released with only "speciality" games like light gun games or DDR requiring custom stuff. Now that requires some complexity so Nintendo probably won't provide the ideal solution any time soon. The remote isn't the future. It's just part of a true future standard.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 01, 2007, 08:04:20 AM
Welcome to the new reality.
Post by: Ian Sane on August 01, 2007, 10:00:40 AM
Considering the traditional setup has been around for over 30 years it's going to take a long time for that to happen. I doubt even Nintendo will have anything resembling the current Wii setup by then. Next gen they'll probably release something that is more in between the two designs. If they don't someone else will. The remote as is is not an ideal solution so either Nintendo will learn that and continue to refine and improve their idea or they won't and a competitor will do it first and kick their ass.
The future of gaming is not simple non-games because those who are raised on non-games will want to expand on the concept which will make things more complex and in need of more complex controllers. The evolution from Pong to Super Mario 64 was all natural. Creative people want to try new things. The remote design will expand to allow more complexity and in time that would likely end up including the functionality of the old design into the new design (after all it's only less buttons and stuff which will be added in future generations). Even if we had the holodeck in virtual reality you can hold a virtual controller to play a classic videogame. The "split" is temporary. It will all merge.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 01, 2007, 10:26:37 AM
Post by: Kairon on August 01, 2007, 11:46:17 AM
Post by: Mashiro on August 01, 2007, 11:56:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I don't know if Nintendo will be the one to "add more buttons" the way you suggest insanolord. I see MS or Sony doing that, and Nintendo trying to keep the number of buttons down via a more elegant and intuitive, more mass market solution.
I tend to agree with this line of thought. Nintendo's goal with the Wii is to keep things simple and I think this is something that will continue over into the next gen.
Post by: Ian Sane on August 01, 2007, 12:19:24 PM
I see that too though in the longrun I don't see that working out as the non-gamers they attract now will want more out of their games in the future. To intentionally keep things simple is like putting a cap on game design. That just isn't going to work, particularly when the competition doesn't have to have a cap.
Post by: ShyGuy on August 01, 2007, 12:27:52 PM
I could see Sony and MS doing this but Nintendo will probably suprise me.
Post by: Mashiro on August 01, 2007, 12:30:23 PM
A it stands the Wiimote does its job fine and those who want a more "classic" control solution with games that allow it can use the classic controller. I don't see a need to really add much more to the Wiimote + Nunchuck design. Expanding upon how the Wiimote of the future actually registers movement and such (to allow for even great 1:1 controls) would be enough in my eyes.
Post by: ShyGuy on August 01, 2007, 12:44:29 PM
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 01, 2007, 12:50:28 PM
Post by: Kairon on August 01, 2007, 12:50:37 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on August 01, 2007, 12:56:28 PM
A rejection of complexity logically has to be limiting. To FORCE things to remain simple suggests that simple is the ONLY way to do something. That's limiting. Plus Nintendo ran into a limitation on DAY ONE when free camera control was featured in the Cube version of Zelda but not the Wii version. Why? Because they had nothing to map the functionality to. Launch day and already Nintendo demonstrated a need for refinements to their controller. Enforcement is a limitation. The second Nintendo makes a conscience effort to keep games a certain way, regardless of any good intentions in doing so, they put a limitation on game design. It's good for them to add to and refine their controller just like they did with all their past consoles. We used to all sh!t on Sony for keeping their controller largely the same.
Post by: Mashiro on August 01, 2007, 01:03:41 PM
Quote
Plus Nintendo ran into a limitation on DAY ONE when free camera control was featured in the Cube version of Zelda but not the Wii version. Why? Because they had nothing to map the functionality to. Launch day and already Nintendo demonstrated a need for refinements to their controller.
A "limitation" maybe but look at Super Mario Galaxy. The lack of camera controls doesn't matter because their camera systems works perfectly fine without it.
It's not a necessity and by having a "gasp" good camera system there isn't a need for free roaming cameras. Thus keeping things simple but effective.
I'm not saying they shouldn't change some things with the Wiimote or let it evolve into something better, just saying more buttons isn't always the answer.
Post by: Kairon on August 01, 2007, 01:05:02 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on August 01, 2007, 01:16:25 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 01, 2007, 01:26:06 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 01, 2007, 01:27:41 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on August 02, 2007, 06:07:16 AM
Who decides what goes and stays? You can't make the assumption that camera control is no longer needed because you don't know how someone in the future may use it. That has been one of Nintendo's problems with third parties for YEARS. They design everything solely for their needs and certain games don't show up on their consoles or they play like crap because Nintendo failed to think beyond their own personal needs. Nintendo thought the button layout and the tiny d-pad on the Gamecube was good enough. Capcom releases Capcom vs. SNK 2 and it controls like sh!t and the fighting game genre practically disappears from the Cube altogether. Why? Because Nintendo doesn't make games like that, didn't take it into account, and thus their userbase missed out on almost an entire GENRE of games. That's what happens when one starts dictating what is and isn't needed in game design.
The only person I would trust to decided what is or isn't needed would be some major game historian who had a huge knowledge of different game types. I sure as hell don't trust Nintendo who historically has had huge genre gaps in their line-up do to limited design. "We decide what people need" is why the N64 used cartridges and Nintendo fell off the top spot in the first place. Several consoles with at least 8 buttons have existed and classic games have been designed that make full and logical use of all of them. So right there I would say that you can't remove buttons willy-nilly because those games PROVE the practical usage and requirement of those buttons. It's like how as great as the analog stick is it has never replaced the d-pad because it just doesn't work as well in many cases. That proves the need for both.
Post by: couchmonkey on August 02, 2007, 07:57:49 AM
As time progresses, the disruptive technology fills the needs of existing users even better than sustaining technologies and the market leaders find themselves in trouble.
The next Wiimote may have a couple of extra buttons, but I think the basic nunchuck design is the future of game controllers. Traditional "pad" controllers will take a seat next to joysticks in the accessories isle.
Post by: IceCold on August 02, 2007, 12:12:58 PM
QuoteIf you look at the remote prototypes from way back when, you'd see that Nintendo already considered all of these options, and decided on the remote as it is now. Using it for the next generation would be a step backwards..
If and when Nintendo updates the Wiimote for the next gen I think the way to go is leave the Nunchuk as it is, and change the Wiimote from a D Pad and one button on the face to 4 buttons, possibly arranged like the GameCube controller, where you still have a very prominent A button but also 3 buttons around it for extra functions.
Haptics all the way!
Post by: EasyCure on August 02, 2007, 02:42:56 PM
Post by: trip1eX on August 03, 2007, 03:31:51 PM
But for aiming the wiimote easily wins. There's a mechanic the other controllers can't copy. Fast twitch aiming.
The motion control also made all the WiiSports game unique and fresh and more entertaining. Again unique.
I think for Mario Strikers, which is more traditional type of game, it wins too. I like holding my hands apart for one thing. That's big right there. It's just more comfy. Second the subtle Wii-specifc controls add a nice flavor to the game. The jerking of the wiimote to tackle adds a visceral feeling to the game. Pointing to block MegaSTrike shots is quickly understandable yet fast paced and challenging. Jerking the nunchuk to distract the other guy doing a MegaSTrike or to switch PowerUps lets you perform these moves without taking your hands off the controls.
I did miss camera control in ZElda:TP. But I got used to it. I mean camera control is often a minus as much as a plus anyway.
