Post by: Luigi Dude on June 15, 2007, 12:19:25 AM
I'm wondering if Sega's seen the recent NPD data
Wii - 338,278
360 - 154,932
PS3 - 81,604
Or how about last weeks Media Create Hardware sales
Wii - 64,529
PS3 - 8,776
You know what, I get the feeling that all there is inside Sega headquarters is a giant crater, and all the employees do each day is throw as much money as they can into it. That's why Sega is literally, a giant money pit.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 15, 2007, 01:09:39 AM
Betting money on a dying horse is not the wisest thing for Sega to do in its current situation.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 15, 2007, 01:48:41 AM
In 2008 the Xbox 360 and PS3 games will look light years better than Wii games. There is definitely some growth to be had within the Wii's graphics, but starting next year it just won't be able to compete.
Sega is assuming that when this happens controller innovation will be worn out fad, and gamers will want to play games at are graphically superior. It also assumes that the Wii control system is pretty weak and after awhile gamers will get bored of controls games basically doing the same thing for each game, AND that motion is imprecise.
I think what Sega is forgetting is that graphics in games last generation were almost never an eye sore. So this generation (even with the Wii) people may see better graphics, but it won't mean they will flock to that system alone, because all games look pretty now.
So now we are literally at a time when actual games and the experience of the system are selling the hardware. And so far Nintendo Wii's is an experience unlike any other system and as such is gaining support. And motion controls although not as precise are still more FUN than traditional methods of control.
I predict the Wii getting first place in Japan and other markets around the world, but the Xbox 360 to become first place world wide this generation.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 15, 2007, 02:16:29 AM
Plus, there are some rumors I've read concerning a microphone already hidden in the Wii-mote. If that is true then there is a lot of potential for future games already present that may one day be tapped. Oh, and the DS will someday interact with the console. Will it function like a controller? I can see it being great for multiplayer offline games where you want to have your own screen and not have your opponents cheat by looking at your section of the screen.
The problem with most gaming companies is they are limited to a "graphics are the only thing that matters" mentality, but I see a lot of things on the horizon which will keep the Wii fresh and interesting even if graphics don't improve that much. But speaking of graphics, look at the games which are being designed from the ground up for the Wii compared to the ports that have been rushed to completion. I don't think the graphics gap is going to be as huge as many people think....
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 15, 2007, 02:52:39 AM
No. Voice Recognition chip. Basically once a Microphone is added, there is a chip to help the system decipher words spoken. (Supposedly)
Now, I am not agreeing with Sega, I am just saying there is major concern. Which is why I believe Nintendo has one year to sell as many Wiis as possible, and why Nintendo should be playing hardball with pricing and releasing all their big guns.
Well, it looks like Nintendo is doing just that this year.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 15, 2007, 03:57:32 AM
I'd say pricing isn't something to worry about when the system has been perpetually sold out since launch. In some circular ads I don't see the system even advertised anymore, because what would be the point in advertising it when it sells out in 10 minutes anyway? Nintendo could actually increase the price by $50 and still sell like crazy. No, what they need to do is start pumping out more Wiis and getting it as many homes as quickly as possible. Games are also a concern, but I think the limited hardware supply is the biggest thing right now.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 15, 2007, 06:00:13 AM
The Saturn was the supreme 2D machine with 3D capabilities hastily shoehorned in. I don't think anyone considered the Saturn to be graphically superior at the time.
Sega is dumb for picking the PS3. But the PS3 isn't screwed because people don't like good graphics or that people are bored with the old way of playing games or that the remote is the future or any of that. The PS3 is f*cked because it's just too damn expensive. That's it. They put a Blu-Ray player in there and that shot the price to hell. The Playstation brand become popular because it appealed to the mainstream but Sony has stupidly priced it out of the mainstream market. They're idiots and they f*cked themselves much like Nintendo did with the N64 and like it was back in 1996 I think the market leader screwing up is the biggest reason why the "ranking" is as it is.
If the Wii doesn't win the Xbox 360 will. If Sony wins this gen then they're the most brilliant game console makers or all time and deserve to be the market leader forever. I think the Wii will either be the eventually winner or all this non-gamer interest will turn out to be a fad and the Wii will just die almost overnight. I don't see any middle ground.
Post by: EasyCure on June 15, 2007, 06:24:59 AM
Quote
Sega is assuming that when this happens controller innovation will be worn out fad, and gamers will want to play games at are graphically superior. It also assumes that the Wii control system is pretty weak and after awhile gamers will get bored of controls games basically doing the same thing for each game, AND that motion is imprecise
that line really bugs me. i hear it everytime there is something negitive to say about the wii.
is it supposed to mean that once gamers get tired of flicking our wrist we'll want to go back to button smashing? cuz im pretty tired of that after gaming since the 8bit days. you know what im sick of doing in every fighting game? down-to-forward [insert attack button here]. i hate it, it gets my thumb sore everytime because if my timing is only slightly off i have to do it over and over again to get a fireball or something to work. i'd rather flick my wrist and move my hand around and feel slightly more connected to the game then go back to mashing the same buttons over and over again. maybe in another 20 years i'll get tired of "waggle" just as i did button smashing but for right now its still pretty fresh to me.
i think sega is bitter for being driven out of the hardware race because of the ps1 and 2 and are going out and saying things like this so that Sony continues to screw up, then when they bow out and leave nintendo and microsoft, Sega will be right there to say "how does it feel?" or [insert something witty]
if thats not the case then they really are the dumbest company in the universe.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 15, 2007, 06:42:59 AM
QuotePlease explain to me how this line makes sense.
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
I predict the Wii getting first place in Japan and other markets around the world, but the Xbox 360 to become first place world wide this generation.
If the Wii is gonna get 1st place in Japan and other markets around the world, where does that leave room for the 360 to take 1st place WW?
Post by: denjet78 on June 15, 2007, 06:58:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: EasyCureQuote
Sega is assuming that when this happens controller innovation will be worn out fad, and gamers will want to play games at are graphically superior. It also assumes that the Wii control system is pretty weak and after awhile gamers will get bored of controls games basically doing the same thing for each game, AND that motion is imprecise
that line really bugs me. i hear it everytime there is something negitive to say about the wii.
is it supposed to mean that once gamers get tired of flicking our wrist we'll want to go back to button smashing? cuz im pretty tired of that after gaming since the 8bit days. you know what im sick of doing in every fighting game? down-to-forward [insert attack button here]. i hate it, it gets my thumb sore everytime because if my timing is only slightly off i have to do it over and over again to get a fireball or something to work. i'd rather flick my wrist and move my hand around and feel slightly more connected to the game then go back to mashing the same buttons over and over again. maybe in another 20 years i'll get tired of "waggle" just as i did button smashing but for right now its still pretty fresh to me.
i think sega is bitter for being driven out of the hardware race because of the ps1 and 2 and are going out and saying things like this so that Sony continues to screw up, then when they bow out and leave nintendo and microsoft, Sega will be right there to say "how does it feel?" or [insert something witty]
if thats not the case then they really are the dumbest company in the universe.
I know I got tired and bored of BUTTONS after playing with my NES for a couple months. I mean, geeze! How many times do I have to push that damn thing? All it does is go up and down. How boring is that?
Controllers haven't really evolved one iota since even before the NES. Look at the PS3 and 360 controllers. They're NES controllers with more buttons and analogue sticks which is basically a more precise digital pad, another button I might add.
The button interface needs to DIE! The sooner the better.
And Sega's retarded.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 15, 2007, 06:59:19 AM
Then Xbox 360s dominate lead in America and pretty strong results in Japan and Europe will give it the lead world wide.
Post by: denjet78 on June 15, 2007, 07:03:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Possibly first in Japan, and maybe a few small areas in Europe but not all of Europe.
Then Xbox 360s dominate lead in America and pretty strong results in Japan and Europe will give it the lead world wide.
You mean the dominate lead that the Wii is eating up and will probably surpass long before the end of the year?
Dude... where do you get your numbers from?
EDIT: Oh wait a minute... were you being sarcastic? Strong results in Japan? Whew! That's a load off my mind! I thought you were serious there for a second. You sure pulled one over on me.
Post by: vudu on June 15, 2007, 07:11:08 AM
EDIT: This is what happens when it takes me fifteen minutes to read a thread.
Post by: TrueNerd on June 15, 2007, 09:00:08 AM
But seriously, I love how he asks, "How can they design products that aren't too derivative of what's already out there?"
Scott. My man. I have a biblical reference for you. Take the giant friggin plank of wood out of your own eye before complaining about the speck in your brother's eye. Peace.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 15, 2007, 09:08:05 AM
If Sega as a company is still angry over the past, then shouldn't they be hating Sony more than Nintendo? Nintendo and Sega's rivalry never got to the point where one had dominance over the other, however when Sony appeared on the scene it started to get bloody and eventually they drove Sega out. Plus, didn't Sega have some really great hits for the DS in Japan? I recall there being some game designed for girls that did really well...
I don't understand why third parties like Sega, Konami, Capcom, etc. make so much money on Nintendo's hardware and then go on to badmouth them and give kudos to their competitors where their games don't sell as well. What is up with that?
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 15, 2007, 10:34:34 AM
I'm guessing when he woke up this morning Reggie was already waiting outside.
Post by: that Baby guy on June 15, 2007, 11:03:10 AM
With Sega and Sony, this doesn't hold true. The Saturn completely lost its era from its own lack of virtue, but the same does not hold true for the Dreamcast. From before day 1 of the DC, Sony was talking big and bad about the PS2, telling consumers in interviews and specs, telling consumers and publications that the PS2 could control smart missiles, could create a Toy Story level of in-game graphics, and that generally the DreamCast was a waste of time and money, which, in truth, was not true. As a result, people just didn't pay much attention to the DS, especially in the states, and things fell apart for Sega because of distinct Sony lies in this generation.
I have to peg these statements and platform chances to the "Publishers are idiots" category. It seems to gather more and more supporting evidence everyday.
Post by: Terranigma Freak on June 15, 2007, 11:46:05 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 15, 2007, 11:52:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: TrueNerd
What's so wrong about that logic? Sony was on top last gen, they'll be on top this gen. That's how it works. You fanboys get too defensive over FACTS.
But seriously, I love how he asks, "How can they design products that aren't too derivative of what's already out there?"
Scott. My man. I have a biblical reference for you. Take the giant friggin plank of wood out of your own eye before complaining about the speck in your brother's eye. Peace.
Maybe because Sony is getting its butt kicked everywhere? That is far more logical then it being in the lead last generation especially when you look at video game HISTORY, it has proven to not be true time and time again.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 15, 2007, 11:55:25 AM
I think the Wii is doing great, and will continue to do so. But I do feel that the Wii sales will eventually begin to slow, and the Xbox 360 sales will pick up. Unlike the PS3 the Xbox 360 has some great games, and if a price cut ever happens that brings the price closer to a mass market friendly number, I believe the Xbox 360 will take off again.
Specially in the US...and it will again when Halo 3 comes out.
In the end I see Xbox 360 and the Wii splitting the other territories and countries. Maybe Xbox 360 will be more popular in Australia and Wii in most of Europe, but the numbers will be similar.
However, in Japan Wii will dominate first place and Xbox 360 will eventually take a solid second place position after some aggressive marketing by Microsoft to cripple a weak PS3. With that occuring and Xbox 360 maintaining its lead in the US, which will have gotten stronger over the years...the Xbox 360 will appear to be the World Wide Market Leader, with Nintendo being a very close second...and oddly enough maybe even have more numbers sold. (Just not to gamers, which will make the market claim the Xbox 360 as victor.)
My prediction isn't about what is going on now, but what may be happening 1-2 years from now. And I don't really view it negative towards Nintendo at all. I am basically giving Nintendo a split victory.
Post by: that Baby guy on June 15, 2007, 12:01:41 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on June 15, 2007, 12:31:47 PM
I'm bored of overuse of franchises and companies like EA becoming too powerful and flooding the market with generic mainstream product. I blame that on gaming being targeted to the mainstream who traditionally favour everything bland. Ironically Nintendo's proposed solution is to target this demographic more aggressively which will probably be successful financially but will make things worse artistically.
If you don't like any shows on TV or any music on the radio so do you say "I'm so bored of watching stuff or listening to stuff"? No of course not. You say you're tired of what TV and radio are offering you. It's the content that has bored you. It's only because Nintendo fed us this "the old controller is boring" PR junk that this idea took off. "Bored with buttons" is a marketing strategy that for some reason is being proclaimed as a revolutionary idealogy. Which is was Nintendo's best-case-scenario all along, I'm sure. Maybe they're not so bad at marketing anyway.
Sega making dumb business decisions based on a petty personal rivalry from ten years ago may seem to go against the whole point of business but that doesn't mean they won't do it. Hell any wrestling fan saw the WWF buy WCW and ECW and have the perfect opportunity to have the ultimate cross-promotional rivalry that could have kept fan interest for YEARS. Instead they blew it. The invasion angle was a joke and died a few months later. The reason: to have an effective storyline WCW had to be portrayed as a threat which wasn't allowed because the WWF did not want to suggest to the fans that a former competitor was actually worthwhile in some fashion. A great business opportunity was squandered because of personal egos. It happens every day. People hire yes-men over employees who will make the company more money. People squash good ideas just because it wasn't there own. Hell Nintendo has done some goofy things in the past where you KNOW they only reason they did it goofy was because a competitor did it first and using the same good solution would admit that the competitor was right. So if Sega is jeopardizing their future because they don't want to seem too supportive of a company they used to be rivals with, well, that's just life.
Though I don't think they are. They're just being Sega. 32X, releasing the Saturn early, Sonic Team sucking, supporting the PS3 - it all fits.
Post by: that Baby guy on June 15, 2007, 12:42:12 PM
Post by: King of Twitch on June 15, 2007, 02:00:12 PM
That's what they said about the PS2, only in reverse: "The PS2 looks dated now, but once developers learn to harness the dual processors, there will be no stopping it!" and "The PS2 is challenging to program for -- but we enjoy the challenge!"
All playstation brand disadvantages are actually advantages through the magic of bribery.
Post by: Kairon on June 15, 2007, 03:42:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
If you don't like any shows on TV or any music on the radio so do you say "I'm so bored of watching stuff or listening to stuff"? No of course not. You say you're tired of what TV and radio are offering you. It's the content that has bored you. It's only because Nintendo fed us this "the old controller is boring" PR junk that this idea took off. "Bored with buttons" is a marketing strategy that for some reason is being proclaimed as a revolutionary idealogy. Which is was Nintendo's best-case-scenario all along, I'm sure. Maybe they're not so bad at marketing anyway.
Ummm... no. I AM tired of TV. I AM tired of radio. I love the content, but the good stuff is few and far between, plus it's presented in a way that makes me want to turn the darn things off (commercials (and I actually PAY ATTENTION and sometimes ENJOY commercials!), "wait till next week", changing volume levels, interruptions, etc.).
Now I do all my tv watching through DVD box sets via Netflix. Sorry TV, but you've got too many things going on when all I want to do is watch the darn program (at my leisure too). I used to watch Gilmore Girls religiously... now I just stick the dvd box set in my netflix. I do all my radio listening wthrough NPR... no commercials, and a great variety of news and prairie home companion content!
Call my a non-watcher. Call me a lapsed listener. But I had to find different avenues to receive my entertainment because the traditional things have stagnated. Also, reality tv shows were TV's bald space marines.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 15, 2007, 03:56:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
You know I never once heard anyone mention they were tired of pushing buttons until Nintendo told them they were. You're not really bored of the controller but rather what companies are choosing to make with those controllers. Content is what is stale or interesting. The controller is merely a tool.
Ian get over your stupid "NIntendo is forcing the Wiimote" cry baby act, it is ridiculous. In fact most innovations are things people didn't even know they wanted until they got a hold of it. Heck before the NES people weren't tired of the ATARI joystick (They were tired of gaming) but those mean old people at Nintendo went against the grain and released a game pad! Those same old individuals also implemented an analog stick when people were perfectly happy with the digital pad.
Post by: ThePerm on June 15, 2007, 04:10:43 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 15, 2007, 04:11:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ThePerm
where the fuck is shenmue 3? only sega can make an incredible game and a sequel without an ending..and then turn the next game that everyone expects into vaporware
The big question is "Do we want Sega to make Shenmue 3?".
Post by: Kairon on June 15, 2007, 04:13:29 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 15, 2007, 05:47:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Some third party developer with big dreams should just BUY the Shenmue license, make it themselves, and it'd probably turn out better. Maybe Totally games can work on it after Alien Syndrome.
I would like to see Miyamoto give Shenmue a shot.
Post by: IceCold on June 15, 2007, 06:41:21 PM
QuoteSpak, one of the few things I disagree with you on is sales and pricing. Didn't you say a few months ago that the Wii should be at $150 by Christmas 07?
In 2008 the Xbox 360 and PS3 games will look light years better than Wii games. There is definitely some growth to be had within the Wii's graphics, but starting next year it just won't be able to compete.
This point just doesn't hold ground - the graphics between Wii ports and 2nd (3rd?) generation 360 games is already wide, yet the Wii is still going strong. Traditional thinking is gone! The new generation is in! Graphics actually don't matter anymore (for the Wii at least)! If they aren't affecting the situation now, I see no reason why two years down the road it'll be any different. I need couchmonkey here - his points are the best in these types of topics. Plus, his Canadian avatar is awesome.
Also, the 360 won't win worldwide. It may hit 35.. 40 million consoles at most, which is impressive in its own right, but it really is a niche console. Halo 3 will obviously help sell systems, but so many people already own the console who will buy Halo that it won't be as much as many tend to think.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 15, 2007, 06:45:58 PM
Post by: Mario on June 15, 2007, 09:28:13 PM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 16, 2007, 03:26:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mario
Sega just wants money, Nintendo can't offer them that.
In other words, they'd rather make a living being a Salacious Crumb for Sony, instead of making money the old fashioned way by making great games on a system where they would actually sell.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 16, 2007, 04:17:17 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 16, 2007, 06:16:26 AM
Traditional thinking is not quite out yet. Wii is selling great with a new audience and the traditional gamer, but Nintendo hasn't proven yet to the traditional gamer that they can provide a great online experience, and that the new controller truly makes the "gamers games" better.
The reason I say this is that the new audience is not proven to buy software by the numbers that gamers go buy games. If it turns out they do, then Nintendo has won this hands down. If it turns out they only buy 3-4 games a year then Nintendo's hardware lead will not be as important as the software sales the other systems can provide.
Also, gamers do appreciate better graphics, but not only that...the power that the Xbox 360 and PS3 can provide larger multi-player games online, better AI, and much more that gamers appreciate.
Until we see the Xbox 360 and PS3 priced closer to the market sweet spot, like Nintendo is we can't just say Nintendo Wiis selling trend will continue for the unforeseeable future. (Although I personally hope it does...because I enjoy my Wii, and can't afford another system.
The big question is in 08 if the Wii is around $150-199 and the Xbox 360 is $250-300 and the PS3 what $400. Will the Wii's pricing and innovation continue to push sales or will people finally decide that the Xbox 360 is a great deal for a gaming device and media device...or will the PS3 finally reveal its supposed promise and begin pumping out games to win back the lead it had with the PS2?
The questions can not be easily answered or predicted. This is what makes Sega's comments so stupid. You can't pick a winner yet, and if you are picking a winner why would you pick the current underdog?
Post by: KDR_11k on June 16, 2007, 06:24:47 AM
To be fair, most of the people you hear on the internet are Americans and they don't have Strikers yet.
Will the Wii's pricing and innovation continue to push sales
No, the games will. Nintendo is rapidly gaining third party support which should translate in a large number of games that will sell the system instead of any hardware gimmick.
Post by: TrueNerd on June 16, 2007, 06:31:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: TrueNerd
What's so wrong about that logic? Sony was on top last gen, they'll be on top this gen. That's how it works. You fanboys get too defensive over FACTS.
But seriously, I love how he asks, "How can they design products that aren't too derivative of what's already out there?"
Scott. My man. I have a biblical reference for you. Take the giant friggin plank of wood out of your own eye before complaining about the speck in your brother's eye. Peace.
Maybe because Sony is getting its butt kicked everywhere? That is far more logical then it being in the lead last generation especially when you look at video game HISTORY, it has proven to not be true time and time again.
Yeah. That was definitely sarcasm on my part.
Post by: ThePerm on June 16, 2007, 07:00:03 AM
Post by: Kairon on June 16, 2007, 07:59:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mario
Sega just wants money, Nintendo can't offer them that.
*Sigh*
Doesn't Sega know that Nintendo systems PRINT money?!?!?
Post by: Smash_Brother on June 16, 2007, 07:59:59 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
You know I never once heard anyone mention they were tired of pushing buttons until Nintendo told them they were.
I had no intention of buying another game system, ever again, until I saw what the Wii's controller would look like and how it would play, so yes, I WAS bored with pushing buttons.
Post by: EasyCure on June 16, 2007, 08:18:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: denjet78Quote
Originally posted by: EasyCureQuote
Sega is assuming that when this happens controller innovation will be worn out fad, and gamers will want to play games at are graphically superior. It also assumes that the Wii control system is pretty weak and after awhile gamers will get bored of controls games basically doing the same thing for each game, AND that motion is imprecise
that line really bugs me. i hear it everytime there is something negitive to say about the wii.
is it supposed to mean that once gamers get tired of flicking our wrist we'll want to go back to button smashing? cuz im pretty tired of that after gaming since the 8bit days. you know what im sick of doing in every fighting game? down-to-forward [insert attack button here]. i hate it, it gets my thumb sore everytime because if my timing is only slightly off i have to do it over and over again to get a fireball or something to work. i'd rather flick my wrist and move my hand around and feel slightly more connected to the game then go back to mashing the same buttons over and over again. maybe in another 20 years i'll get tired of "waggle" just as i did button smashing but for right now its still pretty fresh to me.
i think sega is bitter for being driven out of the hardware race because of the ps1 and 2 and are going out and saying things like this so that Sony continues to screw up, then when they bow out and leave nintendo and microsoft, Sega will be right there to say "how does it feel?" or [insert something witty]
if thats not the case then they really are the dumbest company in the universe.
I know I got tired and bored of BUTTONS after playing with my NES for a couple months. I mean, geeze! How many times do I have to push that damn thing? All it does is go up and down. How boring is that?
Controllers haven't really evolved one iota since even before the NES. Look at the PS3 and 360 controllers. They're NES controllers with more buttons and analogue sticks which is basically a more precise digital pad, another button I might add.
The button interface needs to DIE! The sooner the better.
And Sega's retarded.
the heavy sarcasm makes me think you didnt understand my post so i'll reprase it to this:
im not against buttons, im against people saying "people wil get tired of doing the same motions for wii over and over again" because since SNES we've done the same motions in almost every fighter (except smash, god bless it) with a dpad and button press or hold. to relate to any youth that isnt familiar with those days think about how almost every FPS on a console has the same control scheme, so we're doing those motions repeatadly too.
honestly, who here would want to do marios fireball attack in smash by inputting something like: v,> B or this uppercut be: v,>,^ Y. how about links spin attack, wouldnt it be fun to have to input: <, v, > A?
we've been doing the same motions in gaming for a long time now and thankfully wii is offering something different and new.
Post by: EasyCure on June 16, 2007, 08:41:51 AM
Quote
You know I never once heard anyone mention they were tired of pushing buttons until Nintendo told them they were. You're not really bored of the controller but rather what companies are choosing to make with those controllers. Content is what is stale or interesting. The controller is merely a tool.
i dont want to sound like im taking things personal since i wrote it my post being tired of buttons, but i want to say this in reply to the quote above:
i was tired of buttons before nintendo starting pimping wii on us. you're right in what you say though its not so much the buttons but the content. to an extent though the buttons are part of the problem when the content all becomes stale and every game feels exactly the same because you're doing the same exact butten presses in each.
last generation was actually the first time i went multiplatform since i became a gamer. then midway thru i became bored with most games and stopped wasting my money. i started buying cheap used games and renting just because i didnt think the games were worth the investment anymore. i stopped playing for about a year but i kept up with the news to see if anything intersting was coming out. i became a lapsed gamer at 19 when i've been playing since i was 3. i didnt need nintendos pr to come out and say gaming was getting stale, i felt it so i gave it up almost completely (i god a ds when mario kart came out and bought a few other games that had sparked my interest).
when i heard about the wii i actually became excited, a sort of excitement i hadnt felt since i was in elementary school hyped up about a new megaman game or something. it was like becoming a fanboy all over again because i was being promised something new. i've made my investment in a Wii and im not about to purchase just minigames, i still like my "hardcore gamer" games, and the controller does add something fresh to the mix that i wouldnt of been able to get into if nintendo didnt bring the wiimote to us.
now i know theres a majority of people out there that blindly follow whatever nintendo says and are/were pretty much brainwashed into thinking the way they want them to think, but im not one of them. i am aware im probably in a very veeery small minority here, especially on these forums.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 16, 2007, 09:42:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: EasyCureQuote
You know I never once heard anyone mention they were tired of pushing buttons until Nintendo told them they were. You're not really bored of the controller but rather what companies are choosing to make with those controllers. Content is what is stale or interesting. The controller is merely a tool.
i dont want to sound like im taking things personal since i wrote it my post being tired of buttons, but i want to say this in reply to the quote above:
i was tired of buttons before nintendo starting pimping wii on us. you're right in what you say though its not so much the buttons but the content. to an extent though the buttons are part of the problem when the content all becomes stale and every game feels exactly the same because you're doing the same exact butten presses in each.
last generation was actually the first time i went multiplatform since i became a gamer. then midway thru i became bored with most games and stopped wasting my money. i started buying cheap used games and renting just because i didnt think the games were worth the investment anymore. i stopped playing for about a year but i kept up with the news to see if anything intersting was coming out. i became a lapsed gamer at 19 when i've been playing since i was 3. i didnt need nintendos pr to come out and say gaming was getting stale, i felt it so i gave it up almost completely (i god a ds when mario kart came out and bought a few other games that had sparked my interest).
when i heard about the wii i actually became excited, a sort of excitement i hadnt felt since i was in elementary school hyped up about a new megaman game or something. it was like becoming a fanboy all over again because i was being promised something new. i've made my investment in a Wii and im not about to purchase just minigames, i still like my "hardcore gamer" games, and the controller does add something fresh to the mix that i wouldnt of been able to get into if nintendo didnt bring the wiimote to us.
now i know theres a majority of people out there that blindly follow whatever nintendo says and are/were pretty much brainwashed into thinking the way they want them to think, but im not one of them. i am aware im probably in a very veeery small minority here, especially on these forums.
You know you are definately right, the industry was heading into a rut with buttons, they made games more difficult play and never even came close to the keyboard/mouse combo of PCs. People talk about Wii not being conducive to some types of games, well button controllers have NEVER been conducive to the FPS genre or RTS. Games were getting to the point where they had to be watered down to fit the game pads button setup (Unlike a keyboard not all the buttons are easily accessible), not to mention you felt confined. Even with the mouse you FEEL like you are aiming with the mouse, you don't get that same feeling when you are fighting with an analog stick. The Wiimote seems to bring the best of both worlds with the nunchuck/wiimote combo which has made games that were once not easily accessible (FPS for one) much more accessible. Yeah the Wiimote has trade offs, but it also has many MANY positives a pad does not have.
Post by: BigJim on June 17, 2007, 02:37:44 AM
PRICE is being rejected.
When the price drops finally come and release schedules have matured, things will normalize in some fashion and sales will not be this lop-sided. It's a matter of how much sustainable momentum Nintendo will have to maintain a lead in the long term once the competition finally reaches a level of price tolerance. And nobody can predict that particularly well.
The question is valid whether people agree on the outcome or not.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 17, 2007, 04:55:20 AM
So it should be up to developers to simply leave motion control OUT of their games if it doesn't fit, instead of shoe-horning it in and making a game that plays horribly. When you use a computer to browse the web you use the keyboard to enter text and you use the mouse to navigate (well, some use the keyboard to navigate too), but why can't that be the way it is with Wii games? Use whatever makes sense for the task, but don't lock gamers into one or the other.
Post by: Adrock on June 17, 2007, 08:58:41 AM
Post by: Kairon on June 17, 2007, 10:51:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
Graphics and "old" controllers and "traditional thinking" are not being rejected by the masses.
PRICE is being rejected.
Yeah, that's why the gaming market has NOT increased since the NES percentage wise, and why the market in Japan was SHRINKING before the DS came out.
Post by: denjet78 on June 17, 2007, 02:19:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: EasyCure
the heavy sarcasm makes me think you didnt understand my post so i'll reprase it to this:
im not against buttons, im against people saying "people wil get tired of doing the same motions for wii over and over again" because since SNES we've done the same motions in almost every fighter (except smash, god bless it) with a dpad and button press or hold. to relate to any youth that isnt familiar with those days think about how almost every FPS on a console has the same control scheme, so we're doing those motions repeatadly too.
honestly, who here would want to do marios fireball attack in smash by inputting something like: v,> B or this uppercut be: v,>,^ Y. how about links spin attack, wouldnt it be fun to have to input: <, v, > A?
we've been doing the same motions in gaming for a long time now and thankfully wii is offering something different and new.
Ooops. I'm sorry. I was actually completely agreeing with you. I didn't mean to make you think I was directing that at you. I was actually directing that at the post you were replying to and using your post as support. I suppose I should have been more explicit in that.
I've always thought that motion control was going to be the next leap. I remember playing SMB back on the NES and wondering why when I jumped and raised the controller a little bit that I didn't jump that little bit higher. It took me a while to realize that the button was the only real interface. The controller itself didn't do anything. Ever since then though I've been waiting for the Wii.
Motion control is the future. We're not going to be putting on VR helmets and then using button based controllers to interact with the world. We're going to expect to be able to actually reach out with our own two hands and interact with everything. The Wii is the first step in that direction. Sure it isn't as if we're able to reach into a virtual world and interact with things with our own hands yet. It's more like using a stick or a baseball bat. A sword or a magic wand. You can't do everything with it but at least it's a step in the right direction. And it's light years ahead of a simple button press.
I've said it over and over and over again but no one seems to understand it.
People are afraid of what they don't know. Gamers are afraid of motion control because it's new. They don't know the real promise it brings. And they won't understand it until they give it a try. Sadly a good number of gamers are so afraid of it, and the idea that it will bring massive changes to games, that they won't even do that. They'd rather sit back and press a button because it's comfortable and familiar. They're like an infant with a baby blanket. It's these same people who retard advancement at every step. If they don't understand it, it must be bad. Eventually though the world moves on with or without them.
Button based controllers are like the dinosaurs and the Wii comet has just struck the earth.
Where will you be when the dust settles?
Post by: BigJim on June 17, 2007, 07:18:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: BigJim
Graphics and "old" controllers and "traditional thinking" are not being rejected by the masses.
PRICE is being rejected.
Yeah, that's why the gaming market has NOT increased since the NES percentage wise, and why the market in Japan was SHRINKING before the DS came out.
Praise Reggie for his charts. Can I get an Amen?
But let me know when they produce a chart that proves it was graphics and controllers being rejected. The DS also has this objectionable interface, in fact it has even more buttons and screens than its predecessor, yet manages to squeak by with these antiquated and intimidating handicaps.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 17, 2007, 08:21:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJimQuote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: BigJim
Graphics and "old" controllers and "traditional thinking" are not being rejected by the masses.
PRICE is being rejected.
Yeah, that's why the gaming market has NOT increased since the NES percentage wise, and why the market in Japan was SHRINKING before the DS came out.
Praise Reggie for his charts. Can I get an Amen?
That is a silly argument, you can say the same about every controller innovation out there. Dual screens is an innovation as well, it isn't antiquated because it was rarely used int he past. BTW the Wii/nunchuck combo has more buttons than the Nintendo DS has, especially if you count the control pad.
Post by: BigJim on June 17, 2007, 11:13:24 PM
Point is, I don't subscribe to the idea that people reject graphics and buttons. At present, they reject to being pieholed by price.
Post by: Kairon on June 17, 2007, 11:28:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
Praise Reggie for his charts. Can I get an Amen?
*Downs some kool-aid* AMEN!
hmmm... I would say that we should only look at the success of Brain Age and Nintendogs. These two games kick-started the DS' rise, and they were almost entirely through the touchpad. Maybe even throw in Animal Crossing. Later "traditional" controls went on to sell in New Super Mario Bros. ... But maybe an argument can be made that NSMB was successful because BA and ND did the heavy lifting of moving DS' into skeptical; consumers' hands. Also, all the above games are not memorable for their graphics.
Also, the Wii Sports high attach-rate in Japan generally shows that Wiisports, and by extension, the Wiimote, is a killer app. In America, Wii Sports is packed-in, but although we don't have sales figures it's non-hardcore graphics and new controls are what's compelling people to buy the Wii in large numbers, while traditional console XBox 360 flails (or fails to) behind the PS2.
Yes, Price is a factor there, but so is the contention that it hasn't made enough of an argument for ownership, i.e. same 'ol same 'ol.
... and price is tied into graphics anyways. Can't have your cake and eat it and all that.
Post by: BigJim on June 18, 2007, 12:05:19 AM
You touched on the next point I was going to make... content and the "same 'ol". For as long as content is king, graphics and interfaces are merely tools. It's all about what you do with it, and wholesale rejection of regular controllers and better graphics is just a silly notion to me. That's a flavor of Kool-Aid I'm not drinking.
Argument for ownership? Absolutely true as well. But I think that also ties in with price. What games are worth $600? None, of course. Not even Wii Sports would be worth that much.
Like I said, once the prices come down and release lineups mature, sales will probably not be nearly this lop-sided. And that to me will be a clear indication that traditional gaming has plenty of merit.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 18, 2007, 05:01:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
I would suggest that content has much more to do with their successes than their interfaces would. Wii Sports lends itself naturally to the motion sensor in an organic way, and I agree, and that is probably one of a rare few exceptions where interface and content are TRULY hand-in-hand.
You touched on the next point I was going to make... content and the "same 'ol". For as long as content is king, graphics and interfaces are merely tools. It's all about what you do with it, and wholesale rejection of regular controllers and better graphics is just a silly notion to me. That's a flavor of Kool-Aid I'm not drinking.
Argument for ownership? Absolutely true as well. But I think that also ties in with price. What games are worth $600? None, of course. Not even Wii Sports would be worth that much.
Because traditional gaming isn't being done on Wii or DS. Controllers evolve constantly, and traditional gaming is such a subjective term, technically you can say the Atari's method of control was "traditional" and anything after it wasn't.
Post by: couchmonkey on June 18, 2007, 05:12:02 AM
Sales of products like Brain Training, Wii Sports and Nintendogs speak for themselves. In Japan in particular you can watch some of these games hit the top 10 over and over and over again, weeks after a normal game would have disappeared. There's no doubt the interface is helping to sell these products.
My point isn't that motion controls are a 100% replacement for buttons or that graphics don't matter, but that price isn't 100% of the reason why Wii is selling so well. It's a major factor, but a system with hardly any good games (according to hardcore gamers) isn't selling out week after week on the strength of price alone. You can have a core 360 for $50 extra and get all the graphics and about 3-4 times as many games to choose from. Yeah, that's the "tard pack", but the point is it's out there and it's no more expensive than PS2 was.
Also, what does this have to do with Sega? Hehe.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 18, 2007, 05:21:23 AM
My Mom sure as hell isn't. My Dad is but just has no interest in games. Anytime I've tried to introduce them to a game they just don't seem to care at all. It has nothing to do with the controller. DDR didn't spark interest. My Mom gets confused by f*cking Pac-Man.
I don't think the remote compares to d-pad (which is barely any different than a digital joystick) or the analog stick or any of that because those all added on and the remote takes away. Nintendo says "This is the new way to do it and should be the ONLY way to do it" which is incredibly limiting. I think a problem with gaming has been that often shrinks instead of grows. It seems we have less genres than before as publishers decide that certain types of games are no longer marketable and then kill them off. Stuff like Sony's attitude towards 2D games limits gaming. The PC gaming industry seems to be limited to four genres: FPS, RTS, MMORPG, Tycoon game. Everything should expand like a pyramid. It started with Pong and that influenced new ideas and those influenced new ideas and as time has gone by the amount of game genres and sub-genres has expanded. Yet we don't have more than we did before on store shelves. So Nintendo saying "we don't need this type of game anymore" is really no different than Sony rejecting 2D. It should all expand, not replace or remove.
Post by: EasyCure on June 18, 2007, 05:29:55 AM
Quote
Also, what does this have to do with Sega? Hehe.
shows that we're smarter?
Post by: KDR_11k on June 18, 2007, 05:55:14 AM
The Wiimote has less buttons than a TV remote, yes. There's only so much you can fit on a thing of that size. That's what the expansion port is for. I plug a nunchuk in and have an a-stick with pointing, I plug the classic controller in and I have a dualshock compatible gamepad. The Wiimote is the most flexible controller on the market, it can be any controller you want it to be.
Only adding and never removing is a bad idea, it accumulates unnecessary features and leads to bad design. If the Wiimote had two analog sticks on it, would it still be ergonomic? Should it have handles like a GC controller? Should you need two hands to hold it? Sony demonstrated why you can't just add: The Sixaxis is a mess of incompatible features, its motion control is hindered by its awkward shape that is necessary for it to work like a traditional gamepad. As you add more and more features you get the NGage, a device with several functions, all of which have conflicting requirements for the form factor.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2007, 06:24:22 AM
I'm dead serious about those suggestions. The Wii-mote would be kickass for gardening or fishing, or BBQing... not too sure about the crocheting one, though.
But this is what Nintendo needs to do. Look at what older people do for fun and then start making games about those things.
Post by: Kairon on June 18, 2007, 09:34:49 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Only adding and never removing is a bad idea, it accumulates unnecessary features and leads to bad design. If the Wiimote had two analog sticks on it, would it still be ergonomic? Should it have handles like a GC controller? Should you need two hands to hold it? Sony demonstrated why you can't just add: The Sixaxis is a mess of incompatible features, its motion control is hindered by its awkward shape that is necessary for it to work like a traditional gamepad. As you add more and more features you get the NGage, a device with several functions, all of which have conflicting requirements for the form factor.
Quoted for truth.
Feature creep. PS3. Apatasaurus. Windows. More is not necessarily better.
I agree with you Ian and BigJim about the viability and worth of traditional gaming. But stasis is death, and survival will always include adaptations that are better in many respects, and worse in some.
I think that even Nintendo agrees with you. That's why the earliest prototypes they had had the Wiimote as detachable from an ordinary, traditional controller.
But ultimately, I think that the Wiimote is showing its worth, as a philosophy, control system, killer app, and as an entirely new species in the world of gaming.
Don't worry about traditional gaming though. The Dinosaurs didn't die out. They just evolved into birds.
Post by: Kairon on June 18, 2007, 09:37:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Chozo Ghost
Nintendo could do an even better job of attracting older demographics. Wii Sports is a good thing, but I see there is a Crossword Puzzle game for the DS out now. That's the kind of thing that appeals to older generations. For Mom, Nintendo could unleash a gardening or a crocheting game. For Dad, Nintendo could come out with a BBQ simulator, or (heaven forbid) a Mario fishing game.
I'm dead serious about those suggestions. The Wii-mote would be kickass for gardening or fishing, or BBQing... not too sure about the crocheting one, though.
Oh dear god. Do you WANT to rile up the hardcore traditional gamers on this forum?!?!?!
Post by: Bill Aurion on June 18, 2007, 09:39:27 AM
So instead of dying out they are just going to fly away, am I right? =3
Post by: ThePerm on June 18, 2007, 09:46:19 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on June 18, 2007, 11:06:37 AM
Why pay for a DS and a crossword puzzle game for a couple hundred bucks total to do something that comes in the morning paper you're likely already subscribing to anyway? I see stuff like crosswords or sudoku or word searches in a videogame as overkill because it's so easy to do it the "real" way. Same with boardgames. If the real experience and the fake one are exactly the same and difference in cost isn't an issue(or the real experience is cheaper) why ever do the fake experience? Madden works because there's a fantasy involved - playing in the NFL. If I want to do the crossword I'll do the f*cking crossword. No simulated videogame crossword needed. Virtual virtual skeeball anyone?
Though old people do seem to like doing chores. Considering how often my neighbours mow their lawn, paint their fence, cut down trees, plant new trees, remodel, redecorate and just generally f*ck around with their house fixing that which was never broken in the first place I imagine many people over 40 enjoy spending their leisure time working their balls off. Either that I'm Mr. Efficiency since I manage to get things done with time to spare.
Post by: Deguello on June 18, 2007, 02:35:56 PM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2007, 03:03:14 PM
Also, in the end while your point certainly makes sense, the developers behind these games don't care as long as it sells. They see a really simple game that requires relatively low budget to make, and a vast audience which eats that sort of thing up.
And I know it doesn't make sense why people would want to play a game that is essentially about doing chores, but isn't that the entire basis for Animal Crossing? That game sells like crazy, even though by your logic it shouldn't.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 18, 2007, 04:16:44 PM
Imagine having a DS version of Crossword Puzzles with 100 puzzles or more...and a daily download puzzle that can be timed and ranked online.
It would be an awesome system seller for the right people. Who would have thought Brain Age would have been so successful. One reason it gathered so much popularity was its Sudoku puzzles it had...and the easy interface to solve the puzzles.
Post by: Mashiro on June 19, 2007, 03:04:30 PM
Nintendo's gamble in expanding the market payed off in a big way with DS and Wii and I will be the first to admit, when DS first came out I was annoyed. I didn't see the advantage of the touch screen. Yet, when the system matured and we started getting quality games that take advantage of the screen (Elite Beat Agents was my system serller) you can see just how revolutionary new methods of play can really open up doors. New game possibilities come to light and the market expands, it's a good thing.
Wii will have the same thing, right now there are some decent games that take full advantage of the Wiimote but IMHO none are really as fun as Wiisports. But hey the system is young. If the Wii goes like the DS (which I think it will) eventually developers will start to grasp the unique control set up more and we will have games that can only exist on the Wii that are insanely fun and superior to any traditional controlling game.
I still say a great example of this would be a Star Wars Light Saber battle game, if made well it would probably be one of the coolest (albeit geekiest lol) games for the system, and hey you can't do that on 360 of PS3.
Breaking the mold is a good thing and truthfully the Wiimote is a step in the right direction to making better games. It isn't a fad, just a step towards how games will be played in the future.
Post by: that Baby guy on June 20, 2007, 02:24:42 PM
Post by: Mashiro on June 20, 2007, 04:43:01 PM
Fun fact of the day: It's made by a canadian company called Backbone Entertainment and not sonic team.
