Post by: Requiem on March 15, 2007, 05:37:48 AM
This is som-ol-bullsh*t. The most depressing fact is that the Gamespy rep even said a UNIFIED CODE was possible but that Nintendo made all codes game specific.
WTF?!
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 15, 2007, 05:43:42 AM
Post by: ShyGuy on March 15, 2007, 05:49:22 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 15, 2007, 05:49:25 AM
But at the same time, there's no denying Nintendo seriously dropped the ball with online gaming. I know the console is only 4 months old, but newness will only last so long. At some point you have to call it as you see it, and right now the Wii's online structure is a failure. I can't even lie and say I see potential for future greatness. There's next to nothing good to say about it...well, other than the fact that it's not costing them much. Unless Nintendo does a 180 with how they've been approaching online, the Wii's online offerings will be mediocre at best.
Which is unfortunate, because this is an area where the Wii could have really shined.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 15, 2007, 05:54:14 AM
Well it is free at least... and it actually exists which is an improvement over the Gamecube.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 15, 2007, 05:57:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"There's next to nothing good to say about it"
Well it is free at least... and it actually exists which is an improvement over the Gamecube.
Hence the next to nothing.
And claiming that it's free will only get you so far. Heck, I think that, with Home amongst other things, Sony just kinda proved that "but it's free" isn't a valid justification for Nintendo's piss-poor online gaming structure.
Post by: Requiem on March 15, 2007, 06:04:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
Old topic. Its already being discussed on other threads.
What? Where? This was posted by Falafelkid yesterday.
The only thing that scares me about this is if we get several games that are online masterpieces. It wouldn't be so bad if we just had a couple games to worry about. However, if online really takes hold, we would have go through the same motions for every game we play. That's just tedious.
And what if I met an opponent that I really like to play? How do I play them again later? What if I want to play them in something else? Is that even possible?
Nintendo could kill all reason to own a 360 if they get their sh@t together.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 15, 2007, 06:15:33 AM
It's not QUITE as bad as typing in codes each time, but it would be nice if the friend list was just a friend list, period.
Post by: couchmonkey on March 15, 2007, 06:46:27 AM
I really don't see why we couldn't use the console friend list, I get the security concerns, but if you've already accepted them on your system, then you're going to accept them on most games. I don't really care, but it's bad news.
Post by: vherub on March 15, 2007, 07:08:49 AM
This attitude is the wrong stance to take, and I can't help but feel that VC games will lack online features because of this viewpoint. Online play, high score tables, exhibition- all shackled by friend codes.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 15, 2007, 07:11:35 AM
Except for BWii.
Post by: IceCold on March 15, 2007, 09:14:22 AM
QuoteThe "Rival" feature in Metroid Prime Hunters allowed this. Also, the games will be fine for random matching. You'll only need friend codes to play with your friends, or for voice chat if/when a headset is released.
And what if I met an opponent that I really like to play? How do I play them again later? What if I want to play them in something else? Is that even possible?
Post by: ryancoke on March 15, 2007, 09:27:24 AM
Post by: nitsu niflheim on March 15, 2007, 09:29:26 AM
"Yes our game sucks."
"But online it doesn't because it's ONLINE!!!!!"
"Get better review score because we have online."
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 15, 2007, 09:30:14 AM
With the Rivals system, Pedo-Wiiers are limited to "look, but don't talk" wi-fi interaction.
You can play against teh randums playerz, you just wont get to exchange age/sex/address info nor wisper sweet nothings thru your headset.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 15, 2007, 11:21:01 AM
Nah, that was last gen when they didn't go online at all. This is more of the typical Nintendo screwing up something that someone else did first. Like with memory cards or demo discs Nintendo just has to f*ck up their first attempt because the idea was originally a competitor's and Nintendo was *gasp* proven wrong in their initial decision. They sub-consciously f*ck it up almost to prove that they were really right. "See memory cards and demo discs suck! We were right to stick with cartridges." "See online sucks! We were right to not pursue it." Though with Nintendo who knows if it's this is done sub-consciously.
Though I think a big part of it is Nintendo's general method of always doing things their own way. The theory is that by thinking outside the box they can find a better solution. Thus when someone else provides an incredibly logical setup for something Nintendo's response to it is usually crap because they're trying to fix what isn't broken. Sometimes something is done in such a good way that thinking outside the box will just result in a worse solution because the best solution already exists.
Post by: Viewtiful mario on March 15, 2007, 02:08:59 PM
Here's the intervew:
Quote
Falafelkid: I would like to know if I am right in assuming that the features mentioned (friend rosters, advanced matchmaking capabilities and comprehensive rankings data) suggest a single, unified online platform for each console, rather than one which is dependent on individual games (as is the case with the DS).
GameSpy: GameSpy’s technology does allow for features that could span multiple games. With the Nintendo Wii, however, the multiplayer features are title-specific.
Falafelkid: But is that the case for all Wii online titles across the board?
GameSpy: Yes, that is the case for Wii titles.
Falafelkid: Just one last question to make absolutely sure I have got this right, please. If I have a friend roster in one game, that roster will not be available to me in any other game. I have to build up an entirely new list for each title, right?
GameSpy: The answer to your question is yes, for the Wii friend lists are game specific.Quote
Now press Ctrl+F and type the word "codes", you mey be suprised that the word "codes" is not mentioned AT ALL!!!!!!!!. It just means that the only people that are on the firend list from each game will only be firends that have that game, so your entire wii# adress book won't be on every firend list on every online game you have. You all speak as if this a compleat confrmation of using game spacific firend codes but your all just freaking out over nothing. This isn't even nintendo saying this, it's just a random website guy asking a random Gamespy rep who probably knows nothing on nintnedo's online plan. If this were Reggie and, you know, the words CODES was actually used, then ther'd be cause for concern but there isn't.
Andy by the way, it's not like you can't face random people anyway, practicly every online DS game allowed you to face strangers, you just can't talk to them. Also, since you already exchaned wii #'s with your wii owning firends already, all you need to do is send them an email with your code in it (if it ever becomes neccecery), no paper or pencil required. And if your the kind of person who can afford a butload of online games at the same time, you'r rich enough for your maid to type in the numbers.
So in conclusion, don't be forshadowing the apocolips just yet, this is a hardly reliable source that can be interprated many ways.
And if you think the wii's online is the crappyest thing since UMD's don't forget it CAN tell the Weather, News, and brows the internet, plus there's always the VC.
Stick that statement into your pipe and smoke it.
Post by: TerribleOne on March 15, 2007, 03:58:21 PM
Or.. maybe i'm just being hopeful this is a really good, early April Fool's Joke, because seriously it sounds too dumb to be true. Never before have I wanted to be in the Conference room where this was decided so i could find out WHY... Like what are the pros and cons of Nintendo's implementing a RATIONAL online system as compared to this... um "plan"...
hmm.. Wii 2 2009?
Post by: IceCold on March 15, 2007, 06:29:24 PM
Post by: Requiem on March 15, 2007, 07:05:25 PM
That was a wii-bit aggressive, but you have a point. However, I'm going to think the worse of this situation simply because I don't want to get my hopes up.
Post by: 18 Days on March 15, 2007, 07:28:33 PM
Yeah so Nintendo screwed up online, big deal, it's not like this actually matters to consumers.
I can't even get my Wii online for example.
Post by: Requiem on March 15, 2007, 07:45:03 PM
Furthermore, it counter-acts Nintendo's "make everything as easy and as simple as possible" philosophy. People are going to look at the Wiimote, and be like "wow, what a simple yet intriguing device", then look at the online infrastructure and be like "wait....WTF do I do?"
There's no f%cking reason why Nintendo should screw this up.
Also, using the 360 as an excuse for Nintendo NOT to do online right is a pretty lame excuse. You say only a margin of 360 owner's go online? Have you ever thought why that is? More importantly, have you ever thought that it was the 360 and not the "online-part" at fault?
Post by: Pittbboi on March 15, 2007, 11:34:29 PM
It's one thing to defend Nintendo, but to defend them in light of this is blind fanboyism at its finest. The only thing people can say is "Well, it's not going to be THAT bad." That doesn't change the fact that, even if in the slim chance that they're right and Nintendo somehow redeems itself after this, their online state may not be AS bad but it will still be bad.
2) "buy an X-Box 360" is not the fix it. Nintendo said they'd give online a chance this gen. Online gaming is a must for consoles now. As a Wii owner I have a right to complain about Nintendo's piss poor offerings...especially when it lies in the shadow of the perfect solution. Online console gaming isn't new. The perfect model has been there for a while, for Nintendo to consistently ignore that fact is the perfect example of them thinking outside the box when what's inside the box is perfectly fine and logical.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on March 16, 2007, 12:11:20 AM
Post by: darknight06 on March 16, 2007, 02:46:35 AM
Post by: Strell on March 16, 2007, 03:04:14 AM
"I'm a whiner and I want to play my prescious games online, but I totally want all those useless things also like downloading movies, WHY MUST YOU NOT LET ME DOWNLOAD MOVIES NINTENDO. Instead I have to use friend codes which are worth 30 seconds of inconvenience. THAT'S HALF A MINUTE YOU KNOW."
>As opposed to what? Driving across, potentially, several states to play your friend who lives on the other side of the country?
"YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. 30 SECONDS OF INCONVENIENCE. THAT IS WAY WORSE."
Gosh. Just shut up. It's a free online service to play games against friends, and the best all these whiners can muster is some bullsh*t excuse that it's going to be such an arm-twisting.
Fine. Go buy your own jet and fly everywhere you want to play.
Then come back and stfu, because I'm tired of how childish you're acting.
I grew up in a time where you were lucky if you could play online games. It required calling your friend, telling him to load up Warcraft II, making sure he (and you) had notified everyone in the house that the phone line would be busy and to NOT pick up the phone, checking all your modem settings, finally agreeing to what map to play, hanging up, opening Warcraft II (after 4-5 minutes of trying to connect to your ISP), dialing your friend, finally getting connected the third time, setting all the game parameters, FINALLY start playing, and ultimately having your freaking sister pick up the phone 2 minutes into the game, when you had told her 10 minutes before to not touch the thing.
This doesn't take into account the fact that your ISP's anti-call waiting service usually sucked, so you were SOL if someone called.
Yeah. I think I can handle friend codes.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 16, 2007, 03:22:30 AM
I think asking for an online service that works with features that have been basic for years now, actually lets developers put their games online, and doesn't limit some genres of games (and make others downright impossible) is a little more than whining about "30 seconds of inconvenience".
And just because things were harder "back in the day" doesn't mean we shouldn't hold Nintendo to standards they surpass in just about every other facet of gaming. If we lived life according to what everyone had to deal with back in the day, we would all be satisfied with walking everywhere, barefoot, in the snow, uphill. Duh, online gaming is better than it used to be, that's a minor (and frankly, pathetic) plus to claim. But does that mean we give Nintendo a pass for still not being up to par with the standards set now.
Post by: Ceric on March 16, 2007, 03:33:52 AM
1) Adding people to a game roster by bringing up my address book and pulling there code into the games roster. (Look it takes me more then 30 seconds for me to put in the code and give a nickname plus I have to look at the code and write it down and hope I didn't mess it up.)
2) For the Wii to automagically sense when one of my friends "owns" a game I can play them online that I also "own." (Determined by there save files or the play once data.) Then automagically add them to my in game roster.
Those I be perfectly fine with. In the end though I'll probably just play random battles.
Post by: ryancoke on March 16, 2007, 03:39:34 AM
Post by: Strell on March 16, 2007, 03:44:02 AM
I'm calling you a whiner.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 16, 2007, 03:47:20 AM
Post by: Strell on March 16, 2007, 03:50:28 AM
You're a whiner who can't read.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 16, 2007, 03:57:31 AM
Oh please, you say you're not giving Nintendo a pass but then you take everyone's complaints and issues with Nintendo's online service and lump it all into something incredibly simplistic like "complaining about 30 seconds of inconvenience." As if that's REALLY the only problem people could possibly have with it.
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 16, 2007, 03:58:37 AM
Post by: decoyman on March 16, 2007, 04:09:16 AM
Besides, to enter the 75 or so people I have on my console list right now, it took me a whole heck of a lot longer than 30 seconds. Think literally HOURS to get everyone added in, then DAYS waiting for them to darken up.
If true, this is just dumb, and I don't get why they chose to do it this way.
Post by: Plugabugz on March 16, 2007, 04:12:47 AM
Ultimately it boils down to inconvenience. I still hate, to this day, adding action replay codes. If it absorbs the global address list and adds an individual one in that game (with the possibility of moving them back to the global list) then i reckon it's fine.
Post by: Strell on March 16, 2007, 04:17:00 AM
Besides the fact that we still have no concrete evidence on how the online system is going to work, this is all a bunch of hoopla over theoretical claims as of this moment.
Even if it is FCs, that doesn't change the other factors that Nintendo is obviously trying to shield themselves from. And while I don't think they need to be this careful, we're living in a society that claims the Wii, PSP, and essentially any other online-capable device is a portal to hell, pornography, pedophiles, and all the other distasteful extremes that only Fox News can dream up.
People act like Nintendo is doing this because they want to piss off gamers, which is a stupid notion. They are doing this primarily for two reasons - 1) because they are going to get a ton of immediate response anyway, so it hardly matters what their competitors are doing, because all they see is them losing billions on an online infrastructure that still has yet to produce a lot of profit and can't pull in more than a fraction of their userbase, and 2) because they have lawyers sitting around saying "You know we're going to get sued unless we make it absolutely impossible for idiot Americans to find a flaw here."
Everyone wants to paint this entire thing in this hostile, confrontational coat, like Nintendo is going to steal their lunch money tomorrow and then egg their house at night. And since you're all being egocentric whiners about it, you're just going to complain and bitch and moan about how every last little thing in the system is going to be so overwhelmingly abysmal, when you have no clue how it's going to work, and haven't even tried it out yet.
You say I'm giving them a pass? Not really. I'm just smart enough to understand when a big deal is being made of something that really isn't that big of a deal, as well as I have this uncanny ability to see it beyond "omfg thats dum."
If the online community would just get over itself, this would be a lot easier. We represent the whiniest and tiniest fraction of Nintendo's userbase right now, and oddly enough, Sony and Microsoft are trying to do the same thing with their systems. The big difference is that they've got billions to burn if they want. Nintendo doesn't, and frankly, I can deal with the fact that the steps I'll have to take to play my buddy online in Smash Bros, while he's in New Hampshire and I'm stuck down here in Texas, is eons easier and more enjoyable than me only getting to throw down a half dozen times a year.
You want to blame people? Blame all the idiot parents, the inflammatory activist groups, politicians, and the fact that there's little to no money to be made by dropping billions in technology that still isn't fool proof yet.
Until then, grow a pair and attempt to think outside your shallow, narrow band of thought for more than 2 seconds.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 16, 2007, 04:40:53 AM
Quote
A whiner who can't read and might possibly be retarded.
Call me what you want but that doesn't change the fact that your posts are all a big bunch of nothing.
Quote
Even if it is FCs, that doesn't change the other factors that Nintendo is obviously trying to shield themselves from. And while I don't think they need to be this careful, we're living in a society that claims the Wii, PSP, and essentially any other online-capable device is a portal to hell, pornography, pedophiles, and all the other distasteful extremes that only Fox News can dream up.
It's one thing to protect themselves from the media, but it's another thing to cripple any chances of online gaming success. Heck, at this point their efforts to protect the little dumb kids (I say dumb because even as a kid, I wasn't dumb enough to fall for an online pedobear, and neither was anyone I knew) is getting more bad press from the gaming community than they would be getting from the general media if they just settled with a more reasonable, if less safe, service. Nintendo should just make sure they're not legally responsible, provide adequate warnings and parental control options, and call it a day...rather than kill their chances to provide a quality service.
This is the internet, as long as it exists there are going to be idiots taking advantage of it and getting taken advantaged of as a result of it. Email, chat rooms, message boards, online gaming--it all gets lambasted by the media for not thinking of the children, and Nintendo needs to realize that if they're going to venture into that territory at all they're not going to be spared, period. Heck, even with all these measures they've taken, people have STILL managed to find reasons to claim Nintendo products aren't safe for your children. So it's NINTENDO that needs to grow a pair and deal with it. Online gaming has been around for years and it's going to continue to be around for years, regardless. Heck, with all the hoopla made over Xbox Live and Playstation Online not being safe kids, those services are still alive and going strong (6 million strong, in Xbox Live's case).
Quote
You say I'm giving them a pass? Not really. I'm just smart enough to understand when a big deal is being made of something that really isn't that big of a deal, as well as I have this uncanny ability to see it beyond "omfg thats dum."
Yes, and see beyond to what, exactly? A future of more online options getting shaved from the Wii versions of games because the structure just doesn't allow for them?
Yes, it's true that we don't know everything and this could possibly all be some misunderstanding. But the sad truth is that what we DO know makes it more logical to assume that the final product is going to be a disappointment than it is to assume that somehow Nintendo is going to release some miracle news that, at the last minute, saves the day and makes friend codes and individual friend lists look appealing. At the end of the day we could be wrong and Nintendo can end up doing JUST that, but again, Nintendo doesn't have a good track record when it comes to last minute saves. When a depressing bit of news gets out about something Nintendo's doing, and Nintendo's silent about it, usually it's because the news is more or less true. You can't blame the naysayers and say we're reaching when we complain about this, the fact is we're working with what Nintendo gives us. And, nowadays, when it comes to online, it's the apologists that actually have to reach for something good to say about it.
Quote
The big difference is that they've got billions to burn if they want. Nintendo doesn't, and frankly, I can deal with the fact that the steps I'll have to take to play my buddy online in Smash Bros, while he's in New Hampshire and I'm stuck down here in Texas, is eons easier and more enjoyable than me only getting to throw down a half dozen times a year.
I can't stand this argument. Nintendo is the most profitable thing in gaming, it's not some freakin' garage band. Nintendo is worth billions, makes a profit off of everything it sells, and CAN afford an online structure that WORKS. This isn't about Nintendo cutting costs. This is about Nintendo forcing a service that's intentionally gimped to protect a fraction of the market that isn't really all that into online console gaming, anyway.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 16, 2007, 04:41:23 AM
That's the exact attitude that f*cked Nintendo over for a decade. They said "Just buy a Playstation is third party support matters to you" and everyone did and Nintendo became a joke as a result.
The fact that Nintendo goofs really obvious stuff a lot is annoying in itself but it's even worse that they've trained a lot of their fanbase to not only accept their questionable decions but actually defend them. There is no advantage or even a logical reason for Nintendo to implement online in the manner they're doing. NO ONE likes it, it is largely unnecessary, and others have had free online services that have been better implemented. So why is anyone defending it? It's not like Nintendo is your close personal friend that you're afraid of offending. Sometimes they f*ck up and calling them on it doesn't make you any less of a fan. The best arguement I see for defending this is pretty much "Nintendo is always right".
And merely wanting a company to provide a service in a logical user-friendly way is not whining. Those of us complaining are all glad Nintendo is online but there is a certain basic level of competence that is required here. Nintendo doesn't have to make a free version of Xbox Live but they at least should make something people want to use.
This is really no different then Nintendo refusing to release demos through normal methods. It's making your fanbase jump through hoops for no reason and it is against all rational thought that anyone not on Nintendo's payroll would defend it.
Post by: decoyman on March 16, 2007, 04:56:26 AM
Plus, I don't understand why people keep saying, "the individual game FC system is safer." I've already taken people into my confidence with my console code. How is it different from adding them again in the game? It's like people think the bad guys can't take advantage of the console friend code or something, and that the same people you've added on the console suddenly become equipped for evil deeds when they are able to enter a game with you. Huh?
Post by: Strell on March 16, 2007, 04:56:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
This is about Nintendo forcing a service that's intentionally gimped to protect a fraction of the market that isn't really all that into online console gaming, anyway.
I'd like you to provide something that tells me that XBL is hugely profitable.
Until you do, we're going to go around in circles, because you are continually acting like that isn't the biggest issue at hand here.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 16, 2007, 05:13:13 AM
Imagine you're playing a game and a friend's Mii shows up in the upper left corner of the screen with a little text bubble asking if you want to play some SSBB against him.
Bam. Friend list problem solved.
Post by: 31 Flavas on March 16, 2007, 05:34:46 AM
QuoteYes, teh interwebs likes to do this jumping to conclusions thing a lot.
Originally posted by: TerribleOne
Well V-Mario has a point about jumping into conclusions....
Remember the concerns of the hardcore gamer isn't the only slice of the pie. You've got the parents that want their kids to be safe online. The gamers that just want to find opponets without hassle and without fuçkwads calling them mexican jew lizards or whatever. Then Nintendo has got the new gamers they are getting through games like Brain Trainer and Wii Sports that do not want to deal with said ruffians. And Do remember Nintendo has its own feelings and wants.
So while the hardcore opinion about how online should be conducted is probably in the minority here, don't think for a second that it wasn't taken into consideration.
Post by: 31 Flavas on March 16, 2007, 05:43:15 AM
QuoteHeh, I'll agree with you there too. It's "irrational exuberance" over something that in the end it doesn't matter. Like the news of revolution being renamed "Wii". It gets the irrational gamers all hot and bothered. And lets face it gamers are anything but rational.
Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey
I approve of this news, because it makes the internet really angry.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 16, 2007, 06:49:21 AM
Nintendo's providing the finest in online entertainment in more ways than expected!
Post by: nitsu niflheim on March 16, 2007, 07:00:29 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on March 16, 2007, 09:32:19 AM
To me it's all about what I want in online gaming. I like how Nintendo is giving me something for free. I don't need something as complex as Xbox Live. I just want something that lets me keep track of friends universally and allows me to venture into random matchups if I choose to. I personally just don't want to enter a friend code, or even keep track of individual friend lists, for each game. It's a lot of extra hassle. I don't see anything wrong with saying "hey I personally don't care for this setup because..."
"Like the news of revolution being renamed 'Wii'."
I still hate that name and I am really surprised that it has gone over with the general public without any problems.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on March 16, 2007, 09:36:46 AM
Post by: Ceric on March 16, 2007, 09:56:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Nintendo should just license iChat from Apple after they license iTunes and have iChat be a selectable every time you hit the Home button.
Imagine you're playing a game and a friend's Mii shows up in the upper left corner of the screen with a little text bubble asking if you want to play some SSBB against him.
Bam. Friend list problem solved.
Why? I mean for all intents and purposes iChat is a feature enhanced AIM client. Thats what most people use it for. Nintendo could just roll there own IM channel fairly easily. Even adopt and modify something Open Source, like GAIM, or hire someone to develope one like the did with the browser, like Cerulean Studios.
No offence Smash but if the Wii works mostly like the Cube did I really doubt more then just the bare minimum of the OS is there if at all. (Before you bring the home button up it be relatively easy to have something that all developers are required to compile in for it.) I just don't think that the underlying framework is there. Also the slight performance hit be worth it.
A neat idea. Which would be cool. Though I really hope they have the voice to text stuff before then.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 22, 2007, 06:34:59 AM
Well...this is where all hopes of Nintendo having decent online get flushed down the toilet.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 22, 2007, 06:39:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Game Specific Friend *Codes* Confirmed
Well...this is where all hopes of Nintendo having decent online get flushed down the toilet.
Oh boy...
Let the bitch fest for the ages commence!
Post by: Pittbboi on March 22, 2007, 06:45:29 AM
Quote
Let the bitch fest for the ages commence!
Why call it a bitch fest? Friend Codes are UNIVERSALLY hated. And the best thing that even the most dedicated Nintendo Fanboi can say about them is "Well, they're not THAT bad..."
Gamers hate them. Developers hate them. And what's worse is that Nintendo KNOWS this, and is basically giving all of us a big "f*ck you" and going ahead with friend codes.
It may be a "bitch fest" but Nintendo has it comin'.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 22, 2007, 06:58:30 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
Let the bitch fest for the ages commence!
Why call it a bitch fest? Friend Codes are UNIVERSALLY hated. And the best thing that even the most dedicated Nintendo Fanboi can say about them is "Well, they're not THAT bad..."
Gamers hate them. Developers hate them. And what's worse is that Nintendo KNOWS this, and is basically giving all of us a big "f*ck you" and going ahead with friend codes.
It may be a "bitch fest" but Nintendo has it comin'.
I didn't mean that in a bad way. I'm just recognizing that this will be a major bitch and complaint fest till either Nintendo destroys friend codes all together or offer an alternative.
I am honestly indifferent about the issue. On one hand, I agree that the system is tedious and should just offer online gaming without hoops to jump through. On the other, the system was implemented on the DS and it is still selling, and most importantly, the online games are still selling.
So I am neither "OMFG NINTENDO SUCKS!" nor "STOP BITCHING ABOUT THIS!". Just "Meh"...
Post by: nitsu niflheim on March 22, 2007, 07:16:48 AM
So I guess the Wii system friend code is just for sending messages back and forth because obviously it's not going to be for online games if each game will have their own codes and rosters.
Oh Nintendo, when you want to be stupid, you really go all out for it.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 22, 2007, 07:19:13 AM
It's going to be a royal pain in the ass to type and retype every friend code for EVERY person I want to play online with, hence why this system sucks. The Wii tries to be the system for everyone and yet it relegates its online experience to being one for children.
I at least hope that M rated games online won't need codes. There's no way in hell a kid should be playing that game in the first place.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 22, 2007, 07:26:57 AM
Yeah, it comes from a Nintendo rep, but from the sounds of things the people e-mail Nintendo through their Online help service feature. As well all know, they tend to be automatic and vague responses. So who's to say that this is a help representative guessing that the Wii will use the system as the DS?
If anything, Nintendo would confirm this sort of thing through a major press release of official announcement, not through their help service.
I'm not holding my breath, though, since the answer IS the type of thing Nintendo would do. But its weird that they confirm this through the help service. Plus, they didn't contact someone in the higher ups for the answers.
Post by: Kairon on March 22, 2007, 07:27:08 AM
But I'm also of the opinion that the friend code system is very prohibitive, and I actually don't expect a lot of people to use it under its current implementation. It's a double lock system, and nongamers don't have the patience to deal with complex interfaces and multiple steps in order to get to gameplay. Friend codes are NOT non-gamer friendly, they're NOT pick up and play.
They have appeal to parents and non-gamers who don't know what they're getting into, so friend codes are useful as a selling point to the mass-market . PS3 and XBox 360's unhindered online environment (swearing in X360's FPS games, porn in home) versus Nintendo's 100% safe online environment? No self-respecting non-researching gamer-fearing non-gamer would choose a PS3 or X360!!!.
But I'm pretty confident that like my Animal Crossing experience, there'll just be too many hoops to jump through for casual gamers, nongamers, and even some hardcores to just not bother once they find out how the system really works.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 22, 2007, 07:30:50 AM
For a system that Nintendo wants to be as user friendly as possible, they sure love to implement tedious online features!
Post by: Pittbboi on March 22, 2007, 07:34:18 AM
This way, it only sneaks out onto the internet, and fanboys have a small bit of leverage with which to speculate Nintendo out of deep sh*t.
Kairon: But by appealing to the non-gamers (who, if they REALLY did their research, would know that Xbox360 and PS3's online systems were infinitely more compelling), Nintendo is once again casting away the opinions of the gamer. Basically, the only people the Friend Code system could possibly appeal to are the people of Stepford:
"OMG--Swearing in a video game?? Oh dear, I can't have that! I'm writing to my congressman!"
"Well, you know, you can just block those particular players, and turn on parental settings, and there were adequate warnings before and after you bought the game..."
"Oh--well still! Nobody's thinking of the children!!"
"...But, isn't that the point of pare--"
"NOBODY'S THINKING OF THE CHILDREN!"
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 22, 2007, 07:37:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Pap: I'm not surprised at the way this news was released. I doubt Nintendo wanted to unveil this at a press release, it would overshadow anything else they had to say.
Yeah, you're right. The Wii WAS revealed a month before E3 since they knew people would bitch about it like crazy and would overshadow the games.
But still, if they wanted to unveil it BEFORE the E3 show, they could've just made a quick press release alongside Gamespy.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 22, 2007, 07:39:03 AM
If Nintendo continues to spurn online gaming, there may come a time where online and offline gaming become synonymous with 360 and Wii respectively and it's my firm belief that Nintendo should do whatever they can to avoid a situation like that (as with what happened last gen with M games).
The PS2 won because it was the system for everything, including some online gaming. The Wii would do well to not have anything on its roster which just cried out "No, we don't do that."
Post by: Kairon on March 22, 2007, 07:41:49 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Kairon: But by appealing to the non-gamers (who, if they REALLY did their research, would know that Xbox360 and PS3's online systems were infinitely more compelling), Nintendo is once again casting away the opinions of the gamer.
That's not a problem for me, proud owner of Cooking Mama and soon-to-be-owner of Godfather. I don't see non-gamers as anathema to everything I cherish and hold dear.
BUT, the BIGGER problem is that Nintendo is FAILING to give non-gamers what they SHOULD BE GETTING IN A CASUAL ONLINE EXPERIENCE, so EVEN IN THAT REGARDS they are failing at this online thing. Online casual games have INFINITELY SMOOTHER connectivity, matchmaking, friendsmaking and chatting options. The only one Nintendo is appealing to here is the person who compares features on the box and doesn't play the game, because I believe that friend codes are MUCH too difficult for most people to deal with... Nintendo's online play future will be consisted of a small minority who put up with friend codes and a relative who simply match-make with strangers and NEVER TALK TO EACH OTHER... and this will be a small audience overall.
This system is BAD for NONGAMERS AND GAMERS ALIKE.
*ahem*
Indeed.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 22, 2007, 07:43:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
The real reason this is a hinderance is because developers won't like it, either.
If Nintendo continues to spurn online gaming, there may come a time where online and offline gaming become synonymous with 360 and Wii respectively and it's my firm belief that Nintendo should do whatever they can to avoid a situation like that (as with what happened last gen with M games).
The PS2 won because it was the system for everything, including some online gaming. The Wii would do well to not have anything on its roster which just cried out "No, we don't do that."
Yeah, developers not liking the system concerns me the most. Square already mentioned that some of their online ideas wouldn't work because of friend codes.
Wasn't it mentioned that in order to bypass the friend code system is for the third party to supply their own online system? Like a Nintendo game requires the code, while the third party one works without it.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 22, 2007, 08:04:07 AM
If 3rd parties just accepted responsibility for their actions online then Nintendo would have no reason to use friend codes with their software.
Post by: Adrock on March 22, 2007, 08:06:17 AM
Personally, I see this as primarily a gamer's issue. Online gaming isn't really meant for nongamers, at least not yet. Certainly, it's not helping things along. Nintendo is still trying to keep those people coming back so getting them to game online seems long-term to me. And I think more than a minority of Wii owners will go online with albeit begrudgingly so. Friend codes suck but how many Super Smash Bros. Brawl players with broadband internet will be able to resist to urge to play online? My guess is not many. People won't stop using friend codes because the system is unnecessarily clumsy, but they sure as hell won't stop complaining about it until Nintendo realizes that NO ONE besides Nintendo thinks friend codes are a good idea.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 22, 2007, 08:10:13 AM
Post by: Blue Plant on March 22, 2007, 08:10:16 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 22, 2007, 08:12:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
That would be great.
If 3rd parties just accepted responsibility for their actions online then Nintendo would have no reason to use friend codes with their software.
I think that's how it was handled on the PS2. The console never had an online system and that's how Sony made online gaming free; they allowed the third parties to do their own thing (ie, if the third parties want to charge for their services its THEIR call, not Sony's).
And Bluplant, remember that this is Nintendo we are talking about. They tend to follow their own thing ROYALLY. If that were the case, the Wii would've been changed back to the Revolution because of the crap fest that happened last year.
Post by: Adrock on March 22, 2007, 08:24:24 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 22, 2007, 08:44:28 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 22, 2007, 08:44:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
YUP, THIS IS ALL PERRIN'S FAULT
Seconded.
Post by: ryancoke on March 22, 2007, 08:52:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Adrock
Online gaming isn't really meant for nongamers, at least not yet.
I think the many owners of Clubhouse games on DS would disagree with you. That's one of the most popular online games and based on the amount of DS games coming to Wii, I wouldn't doubt CHG is on the way as well.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 22, 2007, 08:57:07 AM
This sort of "we'll do it stupidly just because" stuff is always going to limit Nintendo. Even if they regain the top spot they'll always be one bone-headed decision away from flushing it all away. They need to get much better at not screwing up obvious stuff or they'll have to fluke out and get by on being less bad than the competition. The company that picked cartridges over CDs has never really learned their lesson. If they want to hang on to being market leader this time they HAVE to consistently spot the screw ups from a mile away.
They should never put themselves in a situation if they can avoid it where in a cross-console comparison they show up last in any categories. Someone has to be last but if it happens it should be out of your control. Last gen the Cube was frequently last in many categories and it often stuff Nintendo was in complete control of. In some cases the competition had shown their hand first and Nintendo merely had to react to it (ie: you shouldn't have the smallest memory cards when Sony has already released their memory cards a year before and thus given you a minimum amount of storage you have to match). Nintendo is setting themselves up to be last in the "online setup" category entirely because of a setup they chose and have complete control over. It isn't like Nintendo released a good online setup and then the competition released better ones later. Nintendo is choosing to rank lower in the "online setup" comparison to the Xbox 360 (and they even have free online which can help balance out a lack of features). That sort of thing should never happen. They should only be losing out due to stuff beyond their control. That's the difference between being a f*ck-up and just being unlucky.
Post by: Kairon on March 22, 2007, 09:02:01 AM
Friend codes hurts these games and sub-genres:
-co-operative or team-based FPS games (Call of Duty III)
-cooperative or team-based RTS games (BWii)
-MMORPGS
-online cooperative actiopn games (i.e. Gauntlet, or similar titles)
-MMO Animal Crossings or Harvest Moon games
-video-exchanging music games (like Singstar)
and more
Any game where you need to communicate with other players, interact with them, develop relationships with them, is hindered by friend codes.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: ShyGuy on March 22, 2007, 09:38:04 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 22, 2007, 10:02:53 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on March 22, 2007, 11:25:34 AM
I'd say that depends on the game. Games that are strictly about having an online community (MMORPGs) are very much like this but games that pretty much just offer the same experience as playing with your buddies at home only with a wider group of players has staying power because at the very least you can get people you know to play with you. My brother plays several older PC games online with his friends even after the initial "scene" is over.
Online SSB would never die for example (at least until the next SSB came out). Even if the huge glut of people that played it when it was new are gone I guarantee you you could find someone on this board that would play with you.
Post by: Kairon on March 22, 2007, 11:46:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"90% of online games are only useful for the first month or so after launch. After that, everyone has moved on to playing different games."
I'd say that depends on the game. Games that are strictly about having an online community (MMORPGs) are very much like this but games that pretty much just offer the same experience as playing with your buddies at home only with a wider group of players has staying power because at the very least you can get people you know to play with you. My brother plays several older PC games online with his friends even after the initial "scene" is over.
?!?!?!?!??!?!
It's the other way around I'd think. There are exceptions, but generally it'd be the other way around.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Adrock on March 22, 2007, 12:50:10 PM
Quote
ryancoke wrote:
I think the many owners of Clubhouse games on DS would disagree with you. That's one of the most popular online games and based on the amount of DS games coming to Wii, I wouldn't doubt CHG is on the way as well.
I wasn't implying that nongamers don't play online games at all or aren't interested. Friend codes suck for everyone. I'd bet though that the system universally pisses off gamers more. And if Nintendo can't please gamers who have been playing for years, how can they hope to bring nongamers into the online gaming scene with a totally unintuitive structure? I think most of us can agree that friend codes are needlessly difficult to deal with and alienate gamers and nongamers alike which is the exact opposite result Nintendo was going for.
Post by: ShyGuy on March 22, 2007, 01:11:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Animal Crossing, Mario Kart, Metroid Hunters...
Nobody at NWR plays those game anymore.
Post by: 31 Flavas on March 22, 2007, 02:54:38 PM
QuoteRationally, yes. I totally agree with you. But the reality is parents and courts and juries just don't operate that way. So pardon me if I don't mind that Nintendo covers their ass. Not that its going to help, some bible thumping lawyer will just sue them anyway.
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I agree: these codes are ridiculous and unneeded, especially when T and M rated games are rated that way to keep children from playing them and therefore should serve as a means of vindicating Nintendo from liability if a kid gets lured by a pedophile.
(and the following goes to everyone that's going to bitch in this hate orgy of a thread)
You want to help the situation? you want to prevent something like Friend Codes from ever happening ever again?
Then knock some fuçking sense into parents and the idiots running this country. Hold them responsible for their contemptible and asinine behavior.
I mean it's a bit out of whack when XBL already has been used and abused by criminals, but Nintendo is the one that gets nailed in the news for Pictochat of all things...
Post by: Plugabugz on March 23, 2007, 01:12:00 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 23, 2007, 07:16:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuyQuote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Animal Crossing, Mario Kart, Metroid Hunters...
Nobody at NWR plays those game anymore.
Yeah, funny thing is it's THOSE [successful, Nintendo-published] games that Nintendo has used to convince themselves Friend Codes are STILL good ideas.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on March 24, 2007, 06:15:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
90% of online games are only useful for the first month or so after launch. After that, everyone has moved on to playing different games.
You honestly think that SSBB is only going to be good online for a month?
Post by: Strell on March 24, 2007, 06:38:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Plugabugz
Do you want to stop your child playing online games? Block the wii's MAC ID from the router. Solved.
True, but walk down the street and ask people what a MAC ID is at random.
See how long you go before someone threatens to punch you.
Post by: MANTI5 on March 24, 2007, 07:11:53 AM
Also this: parental responsibility
Post by: Adrock on March 24, 2007, 08:49:09 AM
Quote
Strell wrote:
True, but walk down the street and ask people what a MAC ID is at random.
Nintendo could have included instructions on how to block the Wii's MAC ID. They could've printed them on one of those peel-off plastic stickers (like the ones put on store windows) and stuck it on the top of the console itself so no one with eyes and motor functions could possibly miss it and if they did, at least Nintendo did everything they possibly could in that situation to make sure said instructions weren't ignored.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 24, 2007, 09:51:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: 31 Flavas Then knock some fuçking sense into parents and the idiots running this country. Hold them responsible for their contemptible and asinine behavior.
You just asked us to eliminate every stupid parent in the world, and as much fun as it would be to do just such a thing, it's impossible.
Bad parents are tragically the constant. All Nintendo can really do is cover their ass using the rules in place.
I think the ESRB ratings should constitute this kind of protection. If the game is rated M, why have friend codes with it? Children shouldn't be playing the game to start with, just as children shouldn't be looking at porn or smoking cigarettes.
If a kid steals cigarettes from one of their parents and smokes them, it's not Marlboro's fault, it's the parent's. If it's ILLEGAL for children to have M rated games, then how can Nintendo or a 3rd party legally be blamed for what a child does with them?
Post by: MANTI5 on March 24, 2007, 01:08:55 PM
Post by: Strell on March 24, 2007, 02:24:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: AdrockQuote
Strell wrote:
True, but walk down the street and ask people what a MAC ID is at random.
Nintendo could have included instructions on how to block the Wii's MAC ID. They could've printed them on one of those peel-off plastic stickers (like the ones put on store windows) and stuck it on the top of the console itself so no one with eyes and motor functions could possibly miss it and if they did, at least Nintendo did everything they possibly could in that situation to make sure said instructions weren't ignored.
Dude, you have way too much faith in humanity in general.
This is the same public who - when a child buys a used memory stick from Gamestop for his PSP that has porn on it - that screams bloody murder at Sony for being totally negligent.
Then they try to sue Sony for millions in "mental damages."
It's also the same public that likes to think things like "Instructions? F that! I'm a MAN, baby! Don't need those!"
I mean, damn. Go into Gamestop - ask the clerks there if THEY know what a MAC ID is. Then look at all the used games - how do all these f*ckers lose the instructions AND THE INSERT for games where ALL OF THAT IS KEPT IN A PLASTIC DVD CASE?
People are idiots, pure and simple. And they don't like taking even the slightest amount of time to learn anything new, let alone trying to set any functions on a system that they consider completely foreign to them.
I mean I see gamers annoyed at all of Nintendo's incessant warning messages for damn near everything - epilepsy, profanity during online games, using the Wiimote strap, etc etc etc. And yet still there are hundreds - if not thousands - of idiots who STILL don't follow those warnings, and then get pissy when something undesirable happens.
If Nintendo wanted the online crap fixed, they have a few options, and unfortunately FCs are one of them. Granted there's a dozen things wrong with them that I can point out, but to act like "well if you block the MAC ID then there's no problem" is the answer is to assume WAY too much about the general public.
31 Flavas is right on the money. It's just that something that he's asking - to educate the public - will never happen. Will never happen.
WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
The only way it might happen is if the current computer/gaming generation grows up and somehow manages to spread a slight amount of techie knowledge and know-how into the majority of people. But the people who know these things - like me and others generally found in forums - are in the minority.
Post by: Smoke39 on March 24, 2007, 03:37:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Dirk TemporoQuote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
90% of online games are only useful for the first month or so after launch. After that, everyone has moved on to playing different games.
You honestly think that SSBB is only going to be good online for a month?
90% =/= 100%. Assuming it's executed well, SSBB could very well be in that 10%.
Post by: Adrock on March 24, 2007, 04:57:23 PM
Look, I'm not saying that the MAC ID is the perfect solution. BUT, it is one possible solution. It's there, it exists and Nintendo should flat-out tell people about it.
The main problem with the friend code system is that the Wii number makes it pointless. I already added people I trust, so why do I need to do it again? I don't need to validate that I know so-and-so more than once. The way I see it, friend codes only protect buyers of used consoles (since friend codes are created when a specific copy of a game is inserted into a specific console) which is ultimately beyond Nintendo's control. It's not really Nintendo's problem. People might try to make it their problem. If some jackass wants to sue Nintendo for emotion distress, murder, rape, domestic violence, whatever... because friend codes weren't safe enough or some other BS reason, that jackass will sue Nintendo. Simple as that. Nothing will stop the lawsuits from happening. No one wants to take responsibility for their own stupidity so they try to displace the blame.
Friend codes aren't idiot proof. I'm not convinced they are really that much safer, at least not enough to warrant the inconvenience. I'd bet that most parents don't know who their kids are exchanging friend codes with. They only get bent out of shape when sh*t goes down. Unfortunately, friend codes won't stop morons from taking the blame off themselves and pointing their fingers at Nintendo.
Quote
Strell wrote:
I mean, damn. Go into Gamestop - ask the clerks there if THEY know what a MAC ID is. Then look at all the used games - how do all these f*ckers lose the instructions AND THE INSERT for games where ALL OF THAT IS KEPT IN A PLASTIC DVD CASE?
I don't know if you're referring to the Gamestop clerks or the previous owners of the games, but when I used to trade games to Gamestop, I'd take out the instructions and inserts so Gamestop couldn't sell them as new games. My games were in perfect condition and I knew for a fact that Gamestop not only opens their new games, but sells used games as new. Then again, we all know Gamestop is an asinine company.
Post by: Kairon on March 24, 2007, 05:26:30 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Strell on March 24, 2007, 07:04:08 PM
The problem with your assumption that "Nintendo could tell people" is two fold. The first is that Nintendo does tell people. They have instruction manuals, they have ESRB warnings on their games (physically and before the game boots), they have official stuff on nintendowifi.com. So they are already doing this.
The second problem is that it doesn't matter if Nintendo does that - no one listens anyway. People could easily learn that there's no way a molester could derive a child's information (address, etc) from Pictochat seemingly out of nowhere, but they don't want to listen to that. No one wants the responsibility. It is that pure and simple.
Nintendo is seeing the world pretty much regress into retardedness at the hands of idiots by the day, and their lawyers know that there's a lot of money at stake and a lot of asses on the line, and unfortunately they are doing these actions to the best of their ability. And even then they sit back and think "That's not enough, we've got to do more." And so they do more but STILL that's not enough. For outrageous hyperbolic examples, please keep reading.
You know what, Kairon? There is a solution. The solution would be to have the Wii boot up everytime and determine who was using it and what they were using it for. So somehow it would have to have an automatic way of determining the user and what they ought to be allowed to see.
However, for that to work, the parents have to go in - or whoever the legal guardian is, or lack of one if the user is over 18 - and modify all the settings to say "Alright when my 12 year old son is playing, he can play Call of Duty, but my 5 year old can't."
Obviously, however, this will never happen because it would be impossible for the Wii to make that judgement, and then it still relies on the parents.
So then, the obvious extension? Somehow test the user right then and there as to their age. Leisure Suit Larry - an adventure game on the PC from Sierra that was playfully adult in nature, maybe about as bad as a Playboy - used to do this by quizzing the users on a variety of information it was assumed only adults would know. Like it might ask who Richard Nixon was and such, and was designed to keep a kid from getting access to the game. But even this has pitfalls - the Internet would allow us to share information.
So what's the next step? Maybe take the test further - maybe it forces the family who owns the Wii to gather around on the first boot up, and it quizzes all of them on their technical know-how on general Internet use, online gaming, what Nintendo is liable for, etc etc etc. It gets ages and what they can be exposed to. It rates them on if they are total dumbasses or reasonably intelligent people. Then IT - the Wii itself - makes all the decisions on what can be done. Guess what - you turn it on and you're the father? Well, you already proved yourself an idiot when you said an IP address was 4 digits long, so now the Wii already cut off anyone under the age of 18 from all online activity.
I mean sh*t. Let's say the father is halfway intelligent and he knows about parental codes, so he locks them out. How easy do you think it is to crack his password? I remember reading a story on the net and the guy said the following: "My parents had a lock on the Playboy channel when I was younger. My brother and I took 3 minutes to crack it. What was the password? 4444. I was surprised it wasn't 0000 or 1234, actually."
So even when the parents KNOW about it, THEY DO IT IN SUCH A HALF ASS WAY, that it doesn't even MATTER. So it's got to be even MORE secure! Maybe the Wii shuts itself off after 5 minutes of gaming PERIOD! No questions asked!
Now, clearly, the above solutions I have proposed is pure nonsense and could never be done. So can ANYTHING be done? Well you could be like Apple and simplify everything, but this pisses off the PC types who want to get in immediately. Or you could do the Vista thing and just ask an endless barrage of questions, but this is horribly annoying.
So none of the above works. None of it. So the only option is to do two things - 1) make the information available and easy to access, and 2) allow control to be present in the form of restrictions. Nintendo, unfortunately, has chosen to rely more heavily on the second as a way to save its own ass by doing things like FCs, even though they've satisfied the first about as exhaustively as they can (not to mention the endless amount of information on the 'net any damn fool could look up).
The bottom line is that THERE IS NO SOLUTION RIGHT NOW unless we could somehow FORCE people to not be idiots about EVERYTHING. If judges threw out the cases immediately and fined the person for bringing their nonsense into the courtroom to begin with, and if everyone were responsible about what the machine was being used for, and if everyone had the technical knowledge to mask out MAC IDs, and if everyone knew what could and could not be done with Pictochat, and if everyone knew what Nintendo was and was not liable for, and about a billion other things, THEN Nintendo might pony up and have no damn reason to choose this moronic system they've decided to use.
Or, Nintendo could just bite the bullet, fess up "we think it's not profitable so we're going to baby step our way into it and hopefully piss everyone off enough such that they will not want to PLAY online anymore, and then we will call it unprofitable, and thus we'll drop all drive to have it on our system, and you f*ckers can go get a rival system to do it because we feel our first party single player games are worth the price of admission alone," and THEN ALL OF THIS BULLSH*T WOULD BE OVER.
And I don't think that's going to happen either, unfortunately.
So instead I'm just going to waste more time entering FCs, knowing the world is full of idiots that ruin MY fun because they can't get their sh*t together, and HOPEFULLY be able to kick my friend's ass with a Home Run bat.
And that is about everything I have to say on the matter on FCs. I do believe I have covered every last base I can possibly cover.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 24, 2007, 07:48:21 PM
So either A) you the parent can't control your kid well enough to keep them from stealing your wallet or B) you the parent have to notice what your kid is doing and understand that they're using the Wii to go online.
Post by: Adrock on March 24, 2007, 09:43:30 PM
Yes, Nintendo tells people with inserts and whatnot. My suggestion was to stick it right into the console itself so the consumer is forced to actually look at it at least once. Sure, most people will peel it off and ignore it, but it's still another means for Nintendo to protect itself.
And I acknowledge that people don't want to take respsonsibility for their own actions and that's the whole point. As I said before, friend codes or not, people will sue Nintendo regardless just because it's easier to point fingers than admit to being a negligent parent. The question then arises: If lawsuits are unavoidable, why willingly choose a backwards ass online structure that annoys the majority of consumers who will not sue you?
I'd be more inclined to accept friend codes as an acceptable system if it actually proved to be safer for children. If parents aren't monitoring what their children and allowing them to do whatever they damn well please, then the friend code system just got subverted at the lowest level. Are friend codes safer? I think the verdict is out on that one.
But you know, I'll deal. I'm not going to boycott friend codes and miss out on any number of sweet ass online Wii games (though in the back of my mind, I'll always think that they're limited by Nintendo's poor choices).
I like Smash_Brother's idea. I think that's pretty reasonable.
Post by: Plugabugz on March 24, 2007, 11:20:27 PM
Does anybody know if Japanese Wiis received updates prior to the release of Pokemon down there? Because it would make more sense if the parental control was updated to disable online access.
Post by: Nephilim on March 24, 2007, 11:41:08 PM
System doesnt work for less popular games, you can be waiting in regional play for hours without anyone one
Would be much easier, were you can see lobbys and see if anyone IS online
Post by: Ceric on March 25, 2007, 02:33:22 AM
Anyway in the case of like Bomberman and Tony hawk. You don't need a full lobby just a number of people online to come up.
Post by: zakkiel on March 25, 2007, 04:42:02 AM
QuoteIf people are still going to sue Nintendo with friend codes, they'll sue if Nintendo has friend codes for each individual game. It's terrible, goddawful, irredeemable, unimaginably stupid decision, and there are no excuses to be made for it. I'm sorry. They ****ed up, and now we have to live with the clumsiest multiplayer system in console history. So yeah, there's gonna be some hate from people who maintain some level of rationality and haven't decided Nintendo is an idol that can do no wrong.
Rationally, yes. I totally agree with you. But the reality is parents and courts and juries just don't operate that way. So pardon me if I don't mind that Nintendo covers their ass. Not that its going to help, some bible thumping lawyer will just sue them anyway.
(and the following goes to everyone that's going to bitch in this hate orgy of a thread)
You want to help the situation? you want to prevent something like Friend Codes from ever happening ever again?
Then knock some fuçking sense into parents and the idiots running this country. Hold them responsible for their contemptible and asinine behavior.
Post by: 31 Flavas on March 25, 2007, 06:05:53 AM
QuoteIf you're not being auto-matched, then no one is available. A lobby will tell you no different. Tetris DS will match you with someone of comparable skill level, but if there is a shortage of players it will match unskilled opponents against very skilled opponents. (shows up more often in 4 player mode)
Originally posted by: DeadlyD
System doesnt work for less popular games, you can be waiting in regional play for hours without anyone one
Would be much easier, were you can see lobbys and see if anyone IS online
Post by: MANTI5 on March 25, 2007, 06:25:47 AM
"The Child Online Protection Act was effectively killed by a federal judge on Thursday, and the prospects for further legislation of its type don't look promising." More here
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 25, 2007, 06:59:37 AM
The argument Nintendo would face is: "My kid got on the internet on the Wii without me knowing about it an got lured by a pedo so it's Nintendo's fault!"
Strangely enough, this whole argument wouldn't exist if Nintendo charged for their online service and required a credit card to subscribe to it...
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 25, 2007, 07:04:05 AM
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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Strangely enough, this whole argument wouldn't exist if Nintendo charged for their online service and required a credit card to subscribe to it...
But then you would have A TON of fans bitching that Nintendo is forcing them to pay to play their favorite games online and that anyone that plays for online content is a fool...Truly, there's no pleasing people.
But my question is, would fans be pleased if Nintendo implemented a security system that was very safe but EXTREMELY easy to use, like instead of 16+ number friend codes, use 4 or an user created password?
Post by: Strell on March 25, 2007, 07:08:37 AM
Sh*t. There are clans in Halo 2 who proudly boast that they can steal your account and your information, and then run up a ton of charges within seconds.
I would not be a part of that kind of sh*t. All it takes is some spoiled 16 year old script kiddie who has no life or friends to get pissed when I hand him his ass in Smash Bros to get all pissy and hunt down my online credentials.
Post by: 31 Flavas on March 25, 2007, 07:15:32 AM
QuoteWith a 4 digit number... how would you avoid ambiguity? With the millions of DS owers going online with games, #1234 could refer to perhaps a thousand different people.
Originally posted by: pap64
But my question is, would fans be pleased if Nintendo implemented a security system that was very safe but EXTREMELY easy to use, like instead of 16+ number friend codes, use 4 or an user created password?
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 25, 2007, 07:26:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
You'd trust Nintendo - who can't even keep hackers from ruining Mario Kart DS - with your personal credit card information, especially in the wake of Microsoft being exposed with having HUGE problems with accounts and CC#s getting stolen?
Sh*t. There are clans in Halo 2 who proudly boast that they can steal your account and your information, and then run up a ton of charges within seconds.
I would not be a part of that kind of sh*t. All it takes is some spoiled 16 year old script kiddie who has no life or friends to get pissed when I hand him his ass in Smash Bros to get all pissy and hunt down my online credentials.
You bring up a good point...Maybe Nintendo doesn't want to bother when stolen credit card cases rises.
So this just proves my point: Fans don't want a strict online security system because its cumbersome and you jump through a lot of hoops. But they also don't want to go online unprotected.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 25, 2007, 07:45:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
You'd trust Nintendo - who can't even keep hackers from ruining Mario Kart DS - with your personal credit card information, especially in the wake of Microsoft being exposed with having HUGE problems with accounts and CC#s getting stolen?
Can you link proof that this is actually happening because it sounds like pure BS.
If people could do sh*t like this, then AOL would have been plagued by it for years.
Post by: Adrock on March 25, 2007, 07:48:42 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 25, 2007, 07:50:19 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 25, 2007, 07:56:12 AM
And SB, the Mario Kart cases are real. I don't remember where I read it, but there were some cases where players had hacked the game somehow. The same thing happened in Animal Crossing WW where a potential bug could wipe out your date.
Post by: Kairon on March 25, 2007, 08:39:17 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smoke39 on March 25, 2007, 02:43:56 PM
In any case, I'd never pay to play Nintendo games online. Multiplayer just doesn't appeal to me nearly enough to.
Post by: Strell on March 25, 2007, 03:40:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: Strell
You'd trust Nintendo - who can't even keep hackers from ruining Mario Kart DS - with your personal credit card information, especially in the wake of Microsoft being exposed with having HUGE problems with accounts and CC#s getting stolen?
Can you link proof that this is actually happening because it sounds like pure BS.
Ok.
http://kotaku.com/gaming/top/xbox-live-hacked-accounts-stolen-245887.php
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/03/21/microsoft-investigating-possible-xbox-live-hacking
http://www.gamespot.com/pages/news/story.php?sid=6167801&part=rss&tag=gs_news&subj=6167801
http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2007/03/21/xbox-live-security-3-21.aspx
Post by: Nephilim on March 25, 2007, 05:06:51 PM
remember paypal has been hacked that way also in the past
even the largest companys, just need one server that hasnt been updated and boom
Post by: Ian Sane on March 26, 2007, 04:54:46 AM
Hell I would be fine with one 16+ number for the console, like a phone number. The fact that it's a game-by-game basis is the most annoying part. Just because Nintendo's service is free doesn't mean it has to suck. For years PC games have offered free online play. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles of Xbox Live but that isn't needed to have a good online setup, just having a logical match-making service.
Nintendo's implementation has nothing to do with cost. All this friend code nonsence isn't to save money. I don't even think it can save money. It's just a way to do things and unfortunately it's a really awkward inflexible one. Having a fee would just result in an awkward inflexible solution that costs money.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 26, 2007, 04:57:01 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 26, 2007, 05:02:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
Ok.
http://kotaku.com/gaming/top/xbox-live-hacked-accounts-stolen-245887.php
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/03/21/microsoft-investigating-possible-xbox-live-hacking
http://www.gamespot.com/pages/news/story.php?sid=6167801?=rss&tag=gs_news&subj=6167801
http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2007/03/21/xbox-live-security-3-21.aspx
Uhh...
Despite some recent reports and speculation, I want to reassure all of our 6 million Xbox Live members that we have looked into the situation and found no evidence of any compromise of the security of the Xbox Live Network or Bungie.net. There have been a few isolated incidents where malicious users have been attempting to draw personal information from unsuspecting users and use it to gain access to their LIVE account. This is a good time to remind our members that they should never give out any of their personal information. Additionally it may be a good idea to download this free PDF file from Microsoft.com ' Help Protect Yourself Against Identity Theft’ that gives you some excellent information and tips on how to protect yourself.
This sounds like social engineering to me, where someone asks someone else sh*t like "What's your pet's name?" and eventually they're able to figure out what the user's password is.
People just blame hacking because they don't want to admit that they were stupid enough to give their information to someone else on the service.
As near as I can tell, all of this was just a rumor.
Post by: Ceric on March 26, 2007, 08:22:22 AM
Post by: Strell on March 26, 2007, 09:42:42 AM
Not to mention that I would think it was only a matter of time before some idiot sold their CC# to someone on Craigslist and failed to erase their internal memory, and then would go on a warpath talking about how Nintendo was negligent in their own stupidity.
So it's not a valid solution either. That's precious data I don't want floating around on a game console.
Post by: Ceric on March 26, 2007, 02:16:20 PM
Post by: King of Twitch on March 26, 2007, 04:06:29 PM
Post by: Kairon on March 28, 2007, 02:54:10 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smoke39 on March 28, 2007, 03:12:50 PM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 28, 2007, 03:24:38 PM
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What does that have to do with Nintendo's online structure?
To me it just proves that no matter WHAT outlandish steps Nintendo takes to avoid criticism from the public at large regarding safety, it still isn't going to escape the "games are violent! Waa waa waaaa!" outcries that are aimed at ALL of the gaming industry by people with too much time and not enough responsibility for one's actions (or inactions). So instead of constantly crippling their online and frustrating their fans to appeal to people who probably don't play games anyway, they should just grow a pair and stand up to public criticism, just like every other gaming company has done.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on March 29, 2007, 06:08:15 AM
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Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
So instead of constantly crippling their online and frustrating their fans to appeal to people who probably don't play games anyway, they should just grow a pair and stand up to public criticism, just like every other gaming company has done.
QFT
Sony did it, Microsoft did it. Nintendo needs to stand up, get Reggie in an interview on CNN or something, and basically have him say, "You want to protect your kids? Be better parents. A video game console is not a baby sitter."
Post by: Adrock on March 29, 2007, 06:42:08 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 29, 2007, 06:44:54 AM
Post by: UERD on March 29, 2007, 03:19:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Adrock
But to prove his point, he'd have to slap someone's mother. Instant youtube hit, like "Dick in a Box" times 10.
You mean kind of like this?
Quote
To me it just proves that no matter WHAT outlandish steps Nintendo takes to avoid criticism from the public at large regarding safety, it still isn't going to escape the "games are violent! Waa waa waaaa!" outcries that are aimed at ALL of the gaming industry by people with too much time and not enough responsibility for one's actions (or inactions). So instead of constantly crippling their online and frustrating their fans to appeal to people who probably don't play games anyway, they should just grow a pair and stand up to public criticism, just like every other gaming company has done.
QFT again. If people are willing to make the mental leap of absurdity required to link video games to terrorism, they will ALWAYS find excuses to call them a detriment to society. And if Nintendo can't get online working smoothly and efficiently, they will have a very large disadvantage in the long run.
Post by: 31 Flavas on March 29, 2007, 06:16:13 PM
QuoteThe reality is that that appeasing parents and politicians is only part of why WFC is as it is. I think I probably did the opinion here a disservice when I asked for parents and "the idots running our country" to be held accountable for their actions. Don't get me wrong here, they should be held accountable for their absurd leaps of logic, but the focus of discussion here is now too much on them now.
Originally posted by: UERD
QFT again. If people are willing to make the mental leap of absurdity required to link video games to terrorism, they will ALWAYS find excuses to call them a detriment to society. And if Nintendo can't get online working smoothly and efficiently, they will have a very large disadvantage in the long run.
Can we at least agree that not all gamers need the same things out of online? I'll absolutely agree Microsoft has a great thing going with XBL but is it necessarily relevant to Nintendo's customers? Specifically, the new gamers that Nintendo has attracted into to video games (on both DS and Wii). And that regardless of the idiots, Nintendo can choose to be socially responsible if they want?
Post by: 31 Flavas on March 29, 2007, 06:17:41 PM
Post by: IceCold on March 29, 2007, 06:19:04 PM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 29, 2007, 07:30:41 PM
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I'll absolutely agree Microsoft has a great thing going with XBL but is it necessarily relevant to Nintendo's customers?
Yes, or else Nintendo's customers wouldn't be in such a funk about it.
Again, asking Nintendo to do away with friend codes isn't asking them to change over and go for Wii Live. Nintendo is more than capable of finding some sort of middle ground without ripping off Xbox Live but providing more functionality than they are currently able to with friend codes. I mean, heck, Sony did it.
Quote
Nintendo can choose to be socially responsible if they want?
But see, this implies that friend codes are they only way for Nintendo to be socially responsible, and that others who don't employ this system aren't being socially responsible.
See, I've always looked at Nintendo's friend codes as the gamingsphere equivalent of those hard right-wing movements to keep condoms and birth control away from the youth, thinking that by providing them with methods of contraception they're encouraging promiscuity on a dangerous level. Sure, by taking away methods of contraception/STD prevention a few aware young people might stay away from sex, but it's not illogical to believe that the majority wouldn't, and without condoms and birth control they'd be exposing themselves to a much greater risk of pregnancy or STDs. So, in effect, it's a movement that does more harm than good.
Nintendo, instead of providing more safety options/tools to keep the service relatively safe AND equally open to the world, is hoping that friend codes keep people "safe" from online predators by confining most of the online functionality between only people they know and who have Wiis. Even at the cost of stifling the mature, responsible gamer. And sure, there are going to be people who don't care enough and will only play Wii games online with people they know, but for a lot of people it won't be enough. A lot of people are going to want the full experience of playing with people all over the world which is really want online play is all about (with more functionality than just random matches), and to make up for lost functionality are going to go online and give their friend codes away to strangers on message boards. This behavior renders friend codes pointless because it's just as dangerous, if not more so because it establishes several points of contact between a predator and possible prey.
There are plenty of options for making online a safe place for all people to game while not taking away from the functionality and what makes online gaming popular, and these methods have been employed by other companies to various degrees. I just think the method Nintendo is using with friend codes is a little drastic and counter-productive.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 29, 2007, 07:33:12 PM
Post by: Kairon on March 29, 2007, 07:38:24 PM
I chalk this up as a failure on Nintendo's part to fully see the correlaries of their new intent to pursue non-gamers and casual gamers.
Thankfully, random, non-interactive matchmaking will be fine. It's only games that require social interaction or teamwork that will suffer here.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Pittbboi on March 29, 2007, 07:42:45 PM
Quote
I wish I could disagree with Pittbboi here, but I think he is right,
*Spits out diet coke* OMG--What!?
Post by: Kairon on March 29, 2007, 08:45:30 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: UERD on March 30, 2007, 01:53:36 AM
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The reality is that that appeasing parents and politicians is only part of why WFC is as it is.
I'm going to agree with you and say (along with a lot of people here already) that there's probably a very pragmatic reason why Nintendo is doing this: they may not have the expertise required to implement a more extensive system and ensure that it functions correctly. I really do kind of wish that they had subsidized online gaming with the Cube (supported/encouraged devs and took advantage of itself) instead of just disavowing it: they might not have earned too much (or even anything) through online, but they would have the expertise that has become so critical now.
Post by: greenblob on March 31, 2007, 02:48:35 PM
*Note: This isn't what I would want, but is more of an ideal compromise solution. I'd love to have things like in-game and lobby chat, but that's not going to happen.
1. Let people make gamer tags, preferably ones that work with all of your Wii games.
2. Have matchmaking lobbies. Divide them according to region (but don't force anyone to play in a certain region--make an option).
3. Implement the rivals system.
4. Have in-game chat with people on your friends list. In order for you to add someone to your list, you must know their Wii number, which won't be shown publicly. Also, make it so that your friends list and rivals list is easily accessible while in the matchmaking lobby.
5. Have commands for game invites, challenges, etc. Also allow for password protected games and a way to send a password to a specific person.
6. Give the host a few options such as kicking players and limiting the number of players.
7. Keep random matchmaking an option.
8. Most importantly, minimize lag.
A typical online session might look like this:
You load up Brawl and click on "wifi." A list of different regions comes up on the screen. You select one and after you're connected to a server, you see a list of waiting games coupled with Mii avatars of the hosts. You join a game, and after being 4-stocked a few times, you decide to try playing someone closer to your level. You select a predetermined message (ugh, but I doubt that Nintendo would allow anything more personal) saying something like "good game" and "bye." After leaving, you receive a game invite. It happens to be someone whom you added to your rivals list last week. Apparently he has a few friends and wants to play them with you as his doubles partner. After a few hilarious matches, the last of which ended with you accidentally edge-guarding your teammate and then falling to your death, you decide that you're done for the day.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on April 01, 2007, 05:50:03 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 02, 2007, 10:41:12 AM
I wish that was all they needed...
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 03, 2007, 10:32:11 PM
UNDER 18? - YAHOO HAS LOTS OF SUITABLE CONTENT FOR YOU
Kids lie to see the boobies ALL THE TIME.
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 04, 2007, 03:29:03 AM
If Nintendo wants to make their online service safe, they should just let the FBI and Chris Hansen's thugs run sting operations on it nonstop.
