Post by: ShyGuy on March 13, 2007, 10:45:50 AM
Joystiq has a post on this too. Bits of this reminds me of posts by Kairon and IanSane.
I think the true dividing line isn't "kiddie" vs "mature" It's about feeling cool for the latently insecure gamers. You plays as Master Chief, you feel cool. You race a car in Gran Turismo, you feel cool. You bounce around as a drop of water, you don't feel cool.
But that's only one aspect of the third party debate. People turning their nose up at any Wii title that isn't AAA game is a whole other deal.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 13, 2007, 10:55:18 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
http://ncroal.talk.newsweek.com/default.asp?item=524536
Joystiq has a post on this too. Bits of this reminds me of posts by Kairon and IanSane.
I think the true dividing line isn't "kiddie" vs "mature" It's about feeling cool for the latently insecure gamers. You plays as Master Chief, you feel cool. You race a car in Gran Turismo, you feel cool. You bounce around as a drop of water, you don't feel cool.
But that's only one aspect of the third party debate. People turning their nose up at any Wii title that isn't AAA game is a whole other deal.
Well in a way he does have a point, it seems like many Nintendo fans don't know what exactly they want. Personally I am intrigued by that Dewie game, and may pick up various other 3rd party games such as the Godfather and Manhunt. With that said, from what I understand 3rd parties have been doing pretty decent so far if they aren't quick n dirty ports, I think Rayman sold well, as did Red Steel and perhaps even Secret Rings. Even Madden has been doing pretty well, so that says something.
Post by: Arbok on March 13, 2007, 10:56:11 AM
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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
I think the true dividing line isn't "kiddie" vs "mature" It's about feeling cool for the latently insecure gamers. You plays as Master Chief, you feel cool. You race a car in Gran Turismo, you feel cool. You bounce around as a drop of water, you don't feel cool.
But what if I play as Godzilla and throw another monster into building, which topples down on top of them? Wouldn't I feel cool, even if what I'm doing is classified as "nerdy"?
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
People turning their nose up at any Wii title that isn't AAA game is a whole other deal.
That's probably not going to be a problem this generation, going from early adoption rate. The Gamecube had that problem due to the fact that it catered largely to Nintendo's own regular userbase, who typically ate up Nintendo's own offerings. It didn't expand very well into the casual market. With the Wii though, it's pretty much assured at least 1st or 2nd place this generation, and due to the blue ocean strategy I think the system can cater to both the hard core gamer and, what many call, the "non-gamer" and I'm sure those two groups combined will cover a lot of different titles that don't need to be AAA calibur. Besides, if the system sells well, and more games are released for it, then then casuals are bound to spill over into the system pool as well.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 13, 2007, 11:00:30 AM
Post by: ShyGuy on March 13, 2007, 11:00:44 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on March 13, 2007, 11:03:34 AM
I don't think it's that we don't want that but rather that we don't JUST want that. Though I'm not sh!tting on original titles if they look like they've got potential and the developer is someone with some credibility. The problem I see isn't just that we're getting k!ddy games or ports but rather that I don't see much else. It's like the Wii has a lot of that filler crap that is a byproduct of healthy third party support but without the good stuff that's supposed to go with it.
Dewy's Adventure is getting a fair bit of flack because Konami is making it. They make all sorts of stuff in different styles. But so far ALL of their Wii stuff is cutesy and this is the company that gave the Cube Disney Sports games and nothing else except for one Metal Gear game that was a remake and was farmed off to one of Nintendo's own second parties. If Nintendo didn't make that one deal Konami would have given us nothing but k!ddy games. And I mean real k!ddy games, not something like Mario. Konami was very obvious in letting everyone know that they thought Nintendo's console was for kids. In fact I think they said it outright. So when all of their Wii titles are cutesy and look like they're aimed at kids the assumption is that it's the same thing over again: Konami thinks Nintendo is for kids and their REAL support will go to the other consoles.
While "k!ddy" is often called an unfair label in reality Nintendo is often the only one where that's the case. With everyone else the so called "k!ddy games" usually ARE designed primarily with kids in mind. Nintendo's "everyone" approach is rare. If a third party is giving you only their "k!ddy" stuff then odds are good that you are not getting their top material.
Post by: The Omen on March 13, 2007, 11:11:29 AM
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Dewy's Adventure is getting a fair bit of flack because Konami is making it. They make all sorts of stuff in different styles. But so far ALL of their Wii stuff is cutesy and this is the company that gave the Cube Disney Sports games and nothing else except for one Metal Gear game that was a remake and was farmed off to one of Nintendo's own second parties. If Nintendo didn't make that one deal Konami would have given us nothing but k!ddy games. And I mean real k!ddy games, not something like Mario. Konami was very obvious in letting everyone know that they thought Nintendo's console was for kids. In fact I think they said it outright. So when all of their Wii titles are cutesy and look like they're aimed at kids the assumption is that it's the same thing over again: Konami thinks Nintendo is for kids and their REAL support will go to the other consoles.
True
Post by: ShyGuy on March 13, 2007, 11:13:12 AM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Yeah but what is AAA? That is my only question :: DERAILED::
Quiet you, go back to practicing your Sonic.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 13, 2007, 11:19:56 AM
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Yet from what I have seen, Wii owners are complaining about almost everything the Wii has heading its way. Take for example Dewy's Adventure, a recently announced puzzle/platformer game that makes use of everything unique to the Wii's control scheme. An alarming number of fans have branded the game as "kiddie" and not worth a second look. This not-worth-my-time message board buzz seems to be afflicting an alarming number of titles coming to the Wii. Prince of Persia: Rival Swords; The Godfather: Blackhand Edition; Scarface; Mortal Kombat: Armageddon--fans lambaste them all because they appeared on last-generation platforms. Nintendo die hards want third party support, but they don't want the original titles, enhanced ports, or "kiddy" games that they accuse third parties of dumping on the Wii
So, we don't want crappy ports, licensed games, and aren't that interested when a new IP featuring a drop of water named Dewy (smart), introducing the the same "innovative" method of "tilt the controller to tilt the world" gameplay that two other games in the Wii's short life have already employed. I don't really think that's a big deal. The guy writing this article makes it seem as though these are all AAA tittles that developers are releasing on the Wii for reasons other than making a quick buck, and we ungrateful Nintendo fans are hanging them on the cross.
Oh, and I like how he uses Dewy's Adventure to say that Nintendo fans don't want original titles, considering No More Heroes (despite a few naysayers) is getting a generally positive reception within the community.
I'm sick of people saying the Wii is getting more "support" from third parties, when in reality that's only true in numbers. We're still getting that same half-a**ed type of support the Cube got, just in slightly larger numbers. Third Parties can't POSSIBLY be so dense they think we wouldn't buy their games if it looked like they put an effort into them and weren't built around the idea that Nintendo consoles are for kids.
Heck, again, look at No More Heroes. Honestly, it doesn't look like a AAA title at all; it's graphics are barely above Cube level, the animation is clunky, and the framerate probably sucks. But people are still excited about it because it's an honest-to-god game built from the ground up for the Wii that, despite it's technical problems, looks like there was effort put into it. It's a game that doesn't treat Nintendo fans like children who are too scared of any sort of mature theme.
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From what I can see, Wii owners want more "mature" titles. I put this term in quotes because I simply don't believe that the gameplay examples fans are citing qualify as mature. The general outcry seems to be for titles that offer up violence in one way or another.
Yeah, um, News Flash: If we wanted nothing but violent titles we probably wouldn't be Nintendo fans to begin with.
"Mature" isn't just violence. I've always viewed mature titles as those that require more thought than a Saturday morning cartoon. Games with art direction that doesn't look like something off the back of a cereal box, and a soundtrack that isn't two Jesus Christs away from Sunday School. Something that can't be completed in one sitting. Something that tackles mature themes that don't always have to include sex or violence. Heck, the Wii STILL doesn't have an RPG in the works for it besides FF: Crystal Chronicles.
Nintendo games aren't lambasted because, despite their non-games and "kiddie" games, Nintendo still supplies us with mature, epic titles.
This guy expects us to be happy with ANYTHING that's thrown at us.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 13, 2007, 11:20:37 AM
I should clarify. We know Twins Snakes tanked, and that helped Konami reinforce the notion Nintendo consoles don't want "matoor" games.
If we can get Dewey to tank, that should at least make Konami realize "kiddee" wasn't appropriate either, making them feel clueless and that they will either (1) follow the example of other successful 3rd parties, or (2) dry up as a company and go under with bad development choices and poor sales, just as Capcom should.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 13, 2007, 11:33:13 AM
It's the same thing with EA and Ubisoft. Their support isn't considered that big of a deal because we already had them. Pretty much all of the decent games those publishers made last gen showed up on the Cube. Any online support was cut of course but those games were there. We had Spinter Cell, Prince of Persia, Rayman, Madden, SSX just like everyone did. So when EA's all "hey look a new Sims games" we're all like "so what?" The Wii could have sold only 100 consoles by now and EA would be making a Sims game for it.
Post by: segagamer12 on March 13, 2007, 11:52:14 AM
I don't get all the wishy washy nintendo fans who beg for 3rd party support one minute and bash the support it gest the next. Godfather, whast wrong with that game!? It sold really well and a lot of people liked it. I think its the attituted that games liek that aren't good when they in fact ARE. Like MK arrmegeddon, that sure pissed off a lot of MK fans not seeing it on GC, but by the time it came out most GC and MK fans knew already not to expect it to come to GC and went out and got one of the other consoles anyways.
The way it sounds to me is if it wasn't on GC last gen it shouldn't be on Wii this Gen, unless its attrracting new customers? Everyone wanted more violent games and now that they are coming everyone is complaining? I am completely puzzled by this yet its the fact of life Nintendo fans really *don't* know what they want.
Whatever I don't get it, mayeb thast why Im so unpopluar, cuz I dont get it and I try and think differently than the typical Nintendo fans.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 13, 2007, 12:25:07 PM
Post by: trip1eX on March 13, 2007, 12:47:50 PM
The real 3rd party stuff will start to hit later this year and especially 2k8. By that time we'll see some developers with a 2nd go around designed for the wiimote and the Wii and we'll start to see the potential being satisfied.
Post by: King of Twitch on March 13, 2007, 01:12:19 PM
Because they are cheap cash-ins and a waste of space. See "Director's Cut" DVDs.
"Still, they write on message boards that the game doesn't appeal to them at all because it lacks "mature" themes, yet many of the people leaving these comments aren't even old enough to purchase Mature-rated games."
wild speculation, with no specifics. why did you beat your wife?
"Nintendo die hards want third party support, but they don't want the original titles, enhanced ports, or "kiddy" games that they accuse third parties of dumping on the Wii...."
Well, we certainly don't want this crap:
Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean at World's End
Shrek the Third Transformers the Game
Tamagotchi Party On
The Ant Bully
Happy Feet
Cars
SpongeBob SquarePants: Creature from the Krusty Krab
or this:
SSX Blur, Madden NFL 07, Poker blahblahblah.. sports games that even the ngage probably has
Call of Duty 3 - no online, no multi, are you f-ing serious
Rampage: Total Destruction - sequel to an Atari game
Avatar: The Last Airbender - tv show cash-in
The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy - tv show cash-in
Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2 - anime games came out every 3 months even on gamecube
Sonic and the Secret Rings - another crappy sonic game
I'm sure even Winnie the Pooh has some deep social commentary the way some "kid die" games like Dewey (may) have sophisticated controls and gameplay but how is that appealing
"Nintendo die hards want third party support, but they don't want the original titles, enhanced ports, or "kiddy" games that they accuse third parties of dumping on the Wii."
Preposterous. Red Steel is very original and has sold well despite its control flaws. We don't want crappy cash-ins like the lengthy list above, and Konami's reputation for insulting the intelligence of their own customers isn't helpful.
There are few good third party "kid die" games in the first place (elebits, Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz, Rayman) none of which were rejected out-of-hand. Making the whole thing rest on the Rejection of Dewey Scandal is silly.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 13, 2007, 01:29:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Heck, the Wii STILL doesn't have an RPG in the works for it besides FF: Crystal Chronicles.
Koei says you are wrong
Post by: IceCold on March 13, 2007, 01:38:26 PM
Post by: Strell on March 13, 2007, 01:44:13 PM
Why in the hell are people so intent on deciding what the console already is versus isn't?
This argument is the same level of retard that causes people to proclaim "the PS3 is dead."
Christ.
Post by: Jin-X on March 13, 2007, 01:47:32 PM
So the top 2 will look like this come April:
1. Zelda
2. Super Paper Mario
So the best two games on the Wii will be made by Nintendo. That is the single biggest reason their games sell better than 3rd party ones on Nintendo consoles, because THEY ARE BETTER. So what 3rd parties need to do is make better games and new IPs (like No More Heroes) and less old ports.
Basically they need to bring their "A" games and less of their "C" games (there are some nice 2nd tier games though). Not everybody can afford to buy a shitload of games a year, so people are going to naturally go for the best games and right now on Wii only Nintendo has made those.
The problem is that we won't really begin to see most of them till next year because they didn't think the Wii would do this well.
Post by: darknight06 on March 13, 2007, 01:51:35 PM
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The console is 4 months old. Why in the hell are people so intent on deciding what the console already is versus isn't? This argument is the same level of retard that causes people to proclaim "the PS3 is dead."
To be blunt, I don't think most of these guys have much else to do...
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 13, 2007, 02:28:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Yeah but what is AAA? That is my only question :: DERAILED::
We are NOT reopening THAT septic tank of an argument, young lady!
As for the subject, the Wii is the first system I've ever seen that people have a hard time treating it as a child's toy.
For the teenage male gamer, I don't think it's "cool" so much as looking childish in front of potential mates, but when those mates are playing Wii Tennis with you, it kills the "girls won't like me" concern that I'm certain most teenage male gamers have.
I don't think coolness will be an issue. If it was, we'd see it reflected in Wii's sales already and that certainly isn't the case.
And the AAA title argument isn't an issue: no matter HOW you define "AAA", the RULE is that the system with the highest installed userbase gets the most AAA titles (and the most titles overall).
Typically, a AAA title is going to cost loads of money to make and has the potential to sell very well, but when it costs FAR less to make on the Wii and will guarantee just as many if not more sales, it's a double-whammy of profit from the Wii.
When the Wii takes #1 in console sales, it is guaranteed to have the most AAA titles. This is not arguable. Companies won't choose to release their AAA titles on consoles with smaller user bases just for the pure hell of it. They'll bring them to the Wii where they can make the most money.
It's all about the Benjamins, people.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 13, 2007, 02:32:53 PM
Cut me some slack--that title was just announced today! I didn't know about until about 15 minutes ago. lol
IceCold:
I'm definitely interested in Fire Emblem, but it's a first party offering. Not only that, but it's a tactical RPG: I'm not saying it doesn't count, but it definitely occupies it's own niche that's slightly different from the traditional turn-based, story heavy RPG.
As for Dragon Quest Swords...again, another game that I'm definitely interested in and WILL be purchasing, but from what I've seen of it, it seems to be veering away from traditional RPG gameplay. I could be wrong, though.
I'm still waiting for the traditional, bread-and-butter rpg. The Final Fantasies and Dragon Quests and Blue Dragons...
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 13, 2007, 02:36:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
I'm still waiting for the traditional, bread-and-butter rpg. The Final Fantasies and Dragon Quests and Blue Dragons...
What a waste of time...If devs are going to take the time to work with the Wii hardware they should at least try to make some unique RPGs...Enough of the 80's gameplay of Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy...
Post by: Pittbboi on March 13, 2007, 02:38:40 PM
That, and 80's rpg gameplay still has its place. Ask any RPG lover.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 13, 2007, 02:43:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Well, I definitely wouldn't call FFXII "80's gameplay" but at the same time I would still consider it a traditional RPG. Same for what we know about the battle systems for FFXIII.
That, and 80's rpg gameplay still has its place. Ask any RPG lover.
I wouldn't consider it a "game" at all, since you can set it to play on its own and not have to bother with any of that "gameplay" nonsense which Japan seems less and less enthused with.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 13, 2007, 02:49:30 PM
I don't see how anyone can say FFXII played itself. I've been through the game twice by now, and I can say that even with full gambits set I was still constantly overriding commands and changing gambits on the fly because what worked for one set of enemies didn't work for another. When you're just leveling up gambits do a wonderful job of taking care of the monotonous--the battles that, in other games, would have only required that we bowl the enemy over with rapid pressing of the X button. But the elite marks, the optional espers, and even the last few storyling bosses require more than just a well-set gambit. It needed some tweaking, I'll admit, but it was a good system.
Though I agree with your comment on Japan. But then, I'm finding that, with each passing year, Japan becomes less and less the absolute when it comes to gaming.
Post by: Mario on March 13, 2007, 02:53:16 PM
Post by: Shift Key on March 13, 2007, 02:56:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
When you're just leveling up gambits do a wonderful job of taking care of the monotonous--the battles that, in other games, would have only required that we bowl the enemy over with rapid pressing of the X button. But the elite marks, the optional espers, and even the last few storyling bosses require more than just a well-set gambit. It needed some tweaking, I'll admit, but it was a good system.
Because the concept of leveling up in FF-style RPGs is broken - what they did in the 80s has carried over today, and they still haven't addressed the issue. Just because gambits make leveling up easy, doesn't mean the problem is solved.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 13, 2007, 02:58:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
GoldenPheonix:
Cut me some slack--that title was just announced today! I didn't know about until about 15 minutes ago. lol
Lol I know, I just thought it was funny that shortly after you said that it was announced.
Post by: Mario on March 13, 2007, 02:59:01 PM
- A little kid being scared of a zombie tearing someones head open and eating it
- An adult scared of a drop of water named Dewey
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I'm still waiting for the traditional, bread-and-butter rpg. The Final Fantasies and Dragon Quests and Blue Dragons...
Buy a DS.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 13, 2007, 03:01:45 PM
But the experiences will always be bigger on consoles. So wanting console rpgs of that nature isn't asking too much.
Post by: Shift Key on March 13, 2007, 03:03:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Mario: that's the plan.
But the experiences will always be bigger on consoles. So wanting console rpgs of that nature isn't asking too much.
Bigger? Bigger screens? Bigger graphics? Bigger gameplay lawlcutsceneslawl? I donot understand.
You're asking for the same old stuff. The stuff that was done to death last generation, only with a different plot and same ending? That's the problem.
Post by: UncleBob on March 13, 2007, 03:23:42 PM
Yeah. But to be fair, Nintendo is the best. And I'm just just saying that because I'm a blind fan-boy (which I am), but there is not a single company out there (third party or otherwise) that has the same track record of successes as games with that red, round Nintendo logo does.
Being a Nintendo fan is like having your own, personal chef - making you wonderful, delicious foods every day. Third parties would be like anything else, ranging from a night out at a fancy resturant to McDonald's to a bag of Wal*Mart brand dry dog food. You might be satisfied with what you had elsewhere, but you're always going to compare it to what your chef makes and, probably, wonder how your chef would have done it better.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 13, 2007, 03:42:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
Are Nintendo Fans too hard on third parties?
Yeah. But to be fair, Nintendo is the best. And I'm just just saying that because I'm a blind fan-boy (which I am), but there is not a single company out there (third party or otherwise) that has the same track record of successes as games with that red, round Nintendo logo does.
Being a Nintendo fan is like having your own, personal chef - making you wonderful, delicious foods every day. Third parties would be like anything else, ranging from a night out at a fancy resturant to McDonald's to a bag of Wal*Mart brand dry dog food. You might be satisfied with what you had elsewhere, but you're always going to compare it to what your chef makes and, probably, wonder how your chef would have done it better.
I think UncleBob speaks the truth, I don't think any company out there quite compares to Nintendo when it comes to quality, memorable titles. Don't get me wrong there are some great developers out there but Nintendo just seems to have the magic touch when it comes to game design, rarely do you see a Nintendo created title that is less than stellar.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 13, 2007, 03:54:42 PM
In fear of sounding like an old record, the more games a system has the more variety it will have. The more variety a system has more fans will be impressed. Fans that are impressed lead to sales.
Also, an advice for Nintendo, third party developers and game companies everywhere (even Sony and MS): Don't always listen to your fans.
While fan feedback is always good, keep in mind that most of the time they don't even know what they want (case in point, fans wanted more third party games, now they could care less for them). Just follow your gut instinct and do it, no matter what the fans may think.
Hell, sometimes some of the best things in gaming came from decisions the fans didn't want or approved at first (I am looking at you, Wii Sports!).
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 13, 2007, 03:58:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
While I love my first party games I believe that third party games are just as important in a console's life.
In fear of sounding like an old record, the more games a system has the more variety it will have. The more variety a system has more fans will be impressed. Fans that are impressed lead to sales.
Also, an advice for Nintendo, third party developers and game companies everywhere (even Sony and MS): Don't always listen to your fans.
While fan feedback is always good, keep in mind that most of the time they don't even know what they want (case in point, fans wanted more third party games, now they could care less for them). Just follow your gut instinct and do it, no matter what the fans may think.
Hell, sometimes some of the best things in gaming came from decisions the fans didn't want or approved at first (I am looking at you, Wii Sports!).
Pap is right too, it may sound cliche but many times a company has to tell the customer what they want. Heck if companies only did what the customer wanted we'd probably still be playing roll the stone tire down the hillside into neighboring village.
Post by: UncleBob on March 13, 2007, 04:07:00 PM
And, again, Nintendo has pretty much supported two generations of systems with their own games - and they made crap-tons of money doing it. Remember, the video game market started out without the intentions of "third party" developers. If you bought an Atari, Intellivision or Colecovision, then you bought their games (with a few exceptions). Could a company seriously get by with this "First Party Only" format today? I dunno. But if there was to be a company that could get by with it, it'd be Nintendo.
Post by: Djunknown on March 13, 2007, 04:10:36 PM
A)No more Heroes
B)Unannounced project by Suda 51
C)Another unannounced project by Suda 51
D)Sadness
E)SSX Blur *as of this writing*
F)Sonic and the secret Rings
G)Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles
Other spiffy 3rd party games that everyone else has that we finally get:
A)Guitar Hero*plus guitar*
B)DDR Hottest Party *w/dance pad*
C)Manhunt 2
That's just ten titles of the top of my head. That's $500 *plus peripherals* (more for our overseas fans...) right there. How many posters here are made of money? If you are, you're excused. If not, that's just a mere sampling of almost guaranteed fun, your mileage may vary of course...
The editorial itself makes some good points, save for the last gen ports bit. Ubisoft's anxious support is appreciated, but the games have to be more than just average to make it count.
Lets do this: Name any original/exclusive 3rd party games you can think of, whether they're out or in development and see what happens.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 13, 2007, 04:20:00 PM
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Bigger? Bigger screens? Bigger graphics? Bigger gameplay lawlcutsceneslawl? I donot understand.
Bigger everything. I'm just saying there's more wiggle room on a console.
Geez, all I said was it's not so much to ask for more console RPGs of the traditional variety. Calm yourself.
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You're asking for the same old stuff. The stuff that was done to death last generation, only with a different plot and same ending? That's the problem.
And no, I'm not asking for the same old stuff. I'll welcome new gaming ideas with open arms if they appeal to me, but that's no reason to do away with the tried and true. Nintendo fans especially can't complain of what was done to death last gen, because they weren't done to death of a Nintendo console. I mean, if you want to get technical, Fire Emblem's been done to death, the series right down to character art and theme has remained relatively unchanged for a while now--but it's still a great series.
There are RPGs that are doing lots of new things while still being considered traditional. Blue Dragon's getting great reviews. And like the game or hate it, there's no denying that FFXII is a lot of firsts for the series. There's still plenty of ground-breaking room in tried and true genres. So don't even pretend to think you know what I want.
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Let's see cool exclusive 3rd party games that I know of:
A)No more Heroes
B)Unannounced project by Suda 51
C)Another unannounced project by Suda 51
D)Sadness
E)SSX Blur *as of this writing*
F)Sonic and the secret Rings
G)Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles
No offense, but B, C, and D...how can you list those as being "cool" when there's next to nothing known about them?
Post by: Shift Key on March 13, 2007, 04:32:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
wiggle room
Hahahahahaha what a stupid term. Handwaving for the sake of handwaving doesn't make your point valid.
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
There are RPGs that are doing lots of new things while still being considered traditional. Blue Dragon's getting great reviews. And like the game or hate it, there's no denying that FFXII is a lot of firsts for the series. There's still plenty of ground-breaking room in tried and true genres.
Yeah, there sure is plenty of room when you only name two games currently on the market. Maybe I haven't been keeping up with the movings and shakings in the RPG genre, but it seems like the mechanisms haven't changed much since the days of FFVII and earlier.
Sure, throw some new features in there, shiny things and bigger cutscenes, ooooh innovation. And the RPG fans eat it up without a complaint or a thought that things could be better. That's my problem.
Its hard to even get enthusiastic about RPGs when the only one I really want to see a sequel to isn't even planned sup golden sun, come back soon k?
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
So don't even pretend to think you know what I want.
When you stop the constant hyperbole maybe I'll care about what you want.
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 13, 2007, 04:33:07 PM
H) Dewey
I) Treasure Island Z
J) Dragon Quest Swords
Post by: 18 Days on March 13, 2007, 04:35:04 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 13, 2007, 04:37:29 PM
Post by: 18 Days on March 13, 2007, 04:38:57 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 13, 2007, 04:40:18 PM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 13, 2007, 04:41:54 PM
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Hahahahahaha what a stupid term. Handwaving for the sake of handwaving doesn't make your point valid.
What, that currently more can be done on consoles than on handhelds? That's not so much my point as it is a fact.
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Yeah, there sure is plenty of room when you only name two games currently on the market. Maybe I haven't been keeping up with the movings and shakings in the RPG genre, but it seems like the mechanisms haven't changed much since the days of FFVII and earlier.
I don't have to list every RPG on the market to make my point. RPGs continue to be made, they continue to get good reviews, they continue to introduce new concepts, and they continue to sell. The genre may be stale for you, but isn't for a lot of people. And I'll greet new ideas and concepts as they come along, but the RPG genre as it stands now, still attracts a lot of people.
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Sure, throw some new features in there, shiny things and bigger cutscenes, ooooh innovation. And the RPG fans eat it up without a complaint or a thought that things could be better. That's my problem.
How about new battle systems, innovations to the world map, and interesting storylines? You don't have to freaking reinvent the wheel to make a good RPG. And of course things could be better; things can ALWAYS be better. There are very few games out there that you can't say that about.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 13, 2007, 04:44:17 PM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: pap64
While I love my first party games I believe that third party games are just as important in a console's life.
In fear of sounding like an old record, the more games a system has the more variety it will have. The more variety a system has more fans will be impressed. Fans that are impressed lead to sales.
Also, an advice for Nintendo, third party developers and game companies everywhere (even Sony and MS): Don't always listen to your fans.
While fan feedback is always good, keep in mind that most of the time they don't even know what they want (case in point, fans wanted more third party games, now they could care less for them). Just follow your gut instinct and do it, no matter what the fans may think.
Hell, sometimes some of the best things in gaming came from decisions the fans didn't want or approved at first (I am looking at you, Wii Sports!).
Pap is right too, it may sound cliche but many times a company has to tell the customer what they want. Heck if companies only did what the customer wanted we'd probably still be playing roll the stone tire down the hillside into neighboring village.
There's a reason why the phrase "the customer is always right" is so full of it.
I mean, had the Wii been a HUGE success had Nintendo listened to their fans and taken Wii Sports out of the bundle and lower it to 200 dollars? Consoles would've been sold, yes, but people would've ignored Wii Sports because it was seen as a tech demo.
Post by: 18 Days on March 13, 2007, 04:47:44 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 13, 2007, 04:51:35 PM
Post by: IceCold on March 13, 2007, 05:10:45 PM
Post by: Mario on March 13, 2007, 05:13:12 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on March 13, 2007, 05:20:54 PM
If anyone gets to derail my thread, it will be me!
Post by: Shift Key on March 13, 2007, 05:23:39 PM
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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
If anyone gets to derail my thread, it will be me!
OK then, lets all be distractions! What's your new gimmick going to be? I see several old ones wrapped up in that avatar of yours. YOU CAN BE ORIGINAL, RIGHT?
Post by: Infernal Monkey on March 13, 2007, 05:26:04 PM
Aw hell naaaaw
Post by: oohhboy on March 13, 2007, 05:53:39 PM
Having seen the Mario Galaxy trailer, I finally understood why I am not a games designer. As imaginative, as cool as I can imagine a game, as right as I think my gameplay design is, I am wrong.
Post by: ShyGuy on March 13, 2007, 05:55:40 PM
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Originally posted by: Shift Key
OK then, lets all be distractions! What's your new gimmick going to be? I see several old ones wrapped up in that avatar of yours. YOU CAN BE ORIGINAL, RIGHT?
Oh its on now, fat avatar. DROP YO TRACK!
I think the Ninty seal of quality in your avatar shows where you stand when it comes to third parties.
Post by: Shift Key on March 13, 2007, 05:59:32 PM
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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Oh its on now, fat avatar. DROP YO TRACK!
I think the Ninty seal of quality in your avatar shows where you stand when it comes to third parties.
SLANDER IS YOUR GAME, HUH?
EAT KOTTER THEN!
Post by: TrueNerd on March 13, 2007, 06:15:45 PM
Hail to the Chief, baby.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on March 13, 2007, 07:01:52 PM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 13, 2007, 07:12:20 PM
Post by: Shift Key on March 13, 2007, 07:27:46 PM
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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
what a strange world we live in when games like those can be called crap...
DRAMA TRAIN WOO WOO! All aboard!
Post by: KDR_11k on March 13, 2007, 09:04:11 PM
Post by: Mario on March 13, 2007, 09:16:16 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on March 13, 2007, 09:36:18 PM
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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
what a strange world we live in when games like those can be called crap...
Well I figure since every single game released for a Nintendo system gets dumped on here (even as soon as they're announced!), we should give the other systems the same love!
Fun facts for NWR
- Wii's getting games featuring primary colours and characters that don't look like uncanny valley knobs, shock horror, so it's a kiddy console with no games. At all. There are zero games on Wii. Confirmed.
- Xbox 360 is getting almost nothing but burly men shooting eachother, so it's a mature console for elderly people and those who think wrestling is real. Confirmed.
- Squaresoft haven't made a good game since Rad Racer. Confirmed.
- PlayStation 3 is surviving on 360 ports and little else, so it's a super premium version of Xbox 360, made by Microsoft. Confirmed.
- Devil May Cry is about as fun as Metroid Prime, ie; not at all. Confirmed.
- Metal Gear Solid features less gameplay than a Mega CD game and a crappier storyline than any kids anime. Confirmed.
This is now a facts confirmed thread, plz continue!
Post by: KDR_11k on March 14, 2007, 02:38:06 AM
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Originally posted by: Mario
Should have bought Excite Truck.
That wasn't released until about 2 months later.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 14, 2007, 02:47:36 AM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix Heck if companies only did what the customer wanted we'd probably still be playing roll the stone tire down the hillside into neighboring village.
To be fair, that was life's killer app.
Post by: Darkheart on March 14, 2007, 02:50:20 AM
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Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey
Confirmed.Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
what a strange world we live in when games like those can be called crap...
Well I figure since every single game released for a Nintendo system gets dumped on here (even as soon as they're announced!), we should give the other systems the same love!
Fun facts for NWR
- Wii's getting games featuring primary colours and characters that don't look like uncanny valley knobs, shock horror, so it's a kiddy console with no games. At all. There are zero games on Wii. Confirmed.
- Xbox 360 is getting almost nothing but burly men shooting eachother, so it's a mature console for elderly people and those who think wrestling is real. Confirmed.
- Squaresoft haven't made a good game since Rad Racer. Confirmed.
- PlayStation 3 is surviving on 360 ports and little else, so it's a super premium version of Xbox 360, made by Microsoft. Confirmed.
- Devil May Cry is about as fun as Metroid Prime, ie; not at all. Confirmed.
- Metal Gear Solid features less gameplay than a Mega CD game and a crappier storyline than any kids anime. Confirmed.
This is now a facts confirmed thread, plz continue!
-Mario Galaxy is nothing but a fancy physics wii tech demo Confimed
-Phantom Hourglass is a game made of PHAIL with shoehorned controls thrown in, the game was made in less than a month Confimed
-Excite Truck more like Bore Truck amirite? Confirmed
-No Rpgs ever for the Wii Confirmed
-Smash with no online Confirmed for a late 2020 release
-Sonic and the Secret Rings > Zelda Toilet Paper Confirmed
-Pro666 to become a NWR mod to delete all threads made of PHAIL Confirmed
-Dewy more kidde than Teletubbies Confirmed
-A Konami Sesame Street point and click adventure game Confirmed
-Capcom tries to change Wii demographic by making MEGAMAN XTREMZORZ X 2000 Confirmed
-Dance Dance Revolutionary FAILURE Confirmed
-The Wii is such a failure that it is now to be called the Sony Wii-S-3 Confirmed
-Not only does FFXII play itself, but does your laundry, flirts with your mom, and plays Elebits better than you. Confirmed
*UPDATED FACTS*
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 14, 2007, 02:57:35 AM
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Originally posted by: TrueNerd
On the 3/9 episode of 1Up Yours, N'Gai Croal of Newsweek paraphrased President Reggie in an interview saying that he believes that if 3rd parties would stop putting their 3rd or 4th string dev teams to work on Nintendo platforms and instead put their top flight teams to task, they'd see better results.
Someone had to say it. I'm glad it was him.
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Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey
Nah, then the Wii would just be flooded with boring, 'deep' crap like Devil May Cry and Metal Gear.
If those games help sell Wiis and make the platform more appealing to other 3rd party devs who you like, then it's not a bad thing.
And don't be one of those people who says, "My console is better off without ____." That's GC fanboy rhetoric and we all know it.
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Originally posted by: darkheart
-Mario Galaxy is nothing but a fancy physics wii tech demo Confimed
-Phantom Hourglass is a game made of PHAIL with shoehorned controls thrown in, the game was made in less than a month Confimed
-Excite Truck more like Bore Truck amirite? Confirmed
-No Rpgs ever for the Wii Confirmed
-Smash with no online Confirmed for a late 2020 release
-Sonic and the Secret Rings > Zelda Toilet Paper Confirmed
-Pro666 to become a NWR mod to delete all threads made of PHAIL Confirmed
-Dewy more kidde than Teletubbies Confirmed
-A Konami Sesame Street point and click adventure game Confirmed
-Capcom tries to change Wii demographic by making MEGAMAN XTREMZORZ X 2000 Confirmed
-Dance Dance Revolutionary FAILURE Confirmed
-The Wii is such a failure that it is now to be called the Sony Wii-S-3 Confirmed
-Not only does FFXII play itself, but does your laundry, flirts with your mom, and plays Elebits better than you. Confirmed
*UPDATED FACTS*
PREACH IT, BROTHA!
Post by: Ian Sane on March 14, 2007, 05:30:01 AM
I agree. There are no games where a console is worse off for having. The console is only worse off if that game is what you get instead of something else. If a developer is giving you the worst version of a multiplatform game or is giving you its worst stuff but not also its best then that game's presence is almost negative. But it is still better than no game at all.
Listening to the customer was brought up and in general I don't think that one should completely cater to the fans' whims. Fans always demand sequels and when they plan their "dream sequel" often it contains so many elements from the previous game(s) that is sounds almost like a remake. Fans don't think outside of the box and specifically ask for new ideas. They say they want the old but don't realize that that's not exactly what they want and if everything is just a glorified remake they'll get bored of it real quick.
However when it comes to negative feedback I think listening to the fans makes some sense. If the fans are very vocal of their dislike for a feature then changing it isn't a bad idea. I'm thinking stuff like awkward controls or a big change to the gameplay or a new element that isn't very good or a puzzle that is too abstract. When Star Fox fans complain about on-foot missions that is an example where it makes sense to listen to the fans. They're not designing the game then, they're just pointing out what they really don't like. Or if a series has totally turned to crap both financially and commercially looking at the fans' tastes makes some sense too. Again it isn't designing the game according to what the fans say they want. Instead you look at what games in the series are still thought about fondly and which ones aren't. The Sonic devs should note that the 3D Sonics are not very popular while the Genesis Sonics are considered classics. They can use that sort of information to analyze the series and determine where things went wrong and why games from one era worked so well and games from another have not.
If Nintendo never listened to the fans then we never would have got A Link to the Past because they wouldn't have acknowledged the complaints about Zelda II. But if you always listen to the fans then you're going to burn out the series in no time.
Post by: Ceric on March 14, 2007, 08:06:07 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 14, 2007, 08:35:06 AM
Yes, getting feedback from the customer is GOOD. What I mean is that sometimes customers and fan bitch for the hell of it, that they just whine and bitch about it instead of truly explaining why the decision is a bad one and how it could affect the company.
So to sum it up:
- Randomly whining and bitching about games on the Wii: Not worth listening too deeply
- Worthwhile complains about how the friend system is troublesome: Sit up and listen
Post by: Infernal Monkey on March 14, 2007, 12:19:33 PM
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Originally posted by: darkheart
-A Konami Sesame Street point and click adventure game Confirmed
I CAN'T WAIT!
*Leaks insider infoz to Go Nintendo*
Post by: Luigi Dude on March 14, 2007, 02:17:13 PM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
But if you always listen to the fans then you're going to burn out the series in no time.
You just described Capcom in one sentence.
Post by: Djunknown on March 14, 2007, 03:27:07 PM
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No offense, but B, C, and D...how can you list those as being "cool" when there's next to nothing known about them?
You weren't supposed to read the spoiler tags!
Seriously though, by using Killer 7 as a gauge, he'd have to be technically worse than that. I don't know how that's possible. Unless Suda 51 takes up crack as a pastime (Or the games get canceled), I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. He's way too young to be past his prime...
I'll give you Sadness though, we still don't know a whole lot about it. At its worse though, it could be another Red Steel.
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Where's the:
H) Dewey
I) Treasure Island Z
J) Dragon Quest Swords
Why, you just added them Bill! Add:
K)Oopona
Post by: Innotech on March 14, 2007, 06:36:16 PM
Post by: Shift Key on March 14, 2007, 08:07:41 PM
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Originally posted by: Innotech
actually, I am 24 years old and I honestly find Dewy's adventure rather intriguing. Its on my buy list definitely.
FAN OF THE WALKING CONDOM ADVENTURE GAME HAS BEEN FOUND!
Post by: couchmonkey on March 15, 2007, 06:40:17 AM
Seriously, though, third party support is great, and Wii needs as much as it can get. Hopefully it keeps coming.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 15, 2007, 07:20:44 AM
Post by: King of Twitch on March 15, 2007, 09:49:38 PM
Post by: wandering on March 15, 2007, 10:47:03 PM
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If Nintendo never listened to the fans then we never would have got A Link to the Past because they wouldn't have acknowledged the complaints about Zelda II.
On the other hand, if Nintendo never listened to the fans, Twilight Princess would've been cel-shaded.
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Yes, getting feedback from the customer is GOOD. What I mean is that sometimes customers and fan bitch for the hell of it, that they just whine and bitch about it instead of truly explaining why the decision is a bad one and how it could affect the company.
So to sum it up:
- Randomly whining and bitching about games on the Wii: Not worth listening too deeply
- Worthwhile complains about how the friend system is troublesome: Sit up and listen
To sum up your sum up: Nintendo should not listen to the bitching of anyone except pap, and people who have the same opinions as pap.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on March 16, 2007, 12:21:58 AM
- Pokemon Channel is better than any of the portable Pokemon RPG's. Confirmed.
- Quest made Quest 64. Confirmed.
- Wing Island will be better than Fire Emblem. Confirmed.
- Starfox Adventures was better than what you thought. Confirmed.
- SUPERMAN 64 was better than Zelda: Twilight Princess. Confirmed.
- Wii Sports is a tech demo. Confirmed.
- Every other video game in existence is also a tech demo because they all use various methods of controller interaction. This ALSO means every game is KIDD-y toilet ahehahohahehaho. Confirmed.
- Mike US. Confirmed.
- Sonic and the Secret Rings is worse than Sonic Adventure 2, which was worse than Twilight Princess. Confirmed.
- I should review more games and not give them scores. Confirmed.
- Everyone should because Reader Review's lonely, needs attention. Will travel. Confirmed.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 16, 2007, 04:20:47 AM
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Originally posted by: wandering To sum up your sum up: Nintendo should not listen to the bitching of anyone except pap, and people who have the same opinions as pap.
Now you understand how it all works.
