Post by: Svevan on March 05, 2007, 07:53:06 PM
Sonic and the Secret Rings is miles ahead of the crew of hedgehog miscarriages that Sonic Team and Sega have turned out over the past several years, but this is unfortunately not enough to save the game from falling into some of the same traps as its older brothers. While the basic game design seems to be revolutionary for Sonic, the game itself makes no apprehensions about existing in the same realm as Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic the Hedgehog for Xbox 360 and PS3, and Sonic Adventure 2. Like those games, Secret Rings revels in gameplay features that bastardize Sonic and have nothing to do with the core concept of his original 16-bit games. I'm really surprised that Sega was able to screw this up.
Secret Rings main innovation is quite welcome: no longer do we have open, 3-D levels that Sonic must roam about, but rather there are linear levels that Sonic progresses through on a track. Sonic moves forward automatically while the player moves him left and right by tilting the Wii Remote, similar to Excite Truck. Players can also make Sonic jump, stop, and move backwards. While jumping, the player can thrust the Wii Remote forward to perform a homing attack on a nearby enemy. There is no camera control.
The control system isn't awful, although it is quirky. Moving left and right with the Wii Remote is a fine feature, and I hope Sonic Team uses it again. Jumping is a different matter: holding down the jump button causes Sonic to grind, and only upon releasing does he jump, causing a delay. Even a quick tap of the jump button has a delayed reaction, and jumping overall slows Sonic down. Also, homing attacks can only be performed after jumping, and you must “lock on" to an enemy to perform them. There are two problems here: one, it takes too long to jump. Two, you must be in the air for a certain amount of time before you actually “lock on." If you are running at full speed towards a gap and see an enemy at the last minute, you are likely to jump, performing your homing attack without locking on, and fall to your death. This means that whenever something unexpected shows up in the levels, you will die. There's never enough time to dodge, jump, or attack. Sonic Team wanted the game to be fast paced, but why did they make Sonic's attacks so slow?
Where Secret Rings really falls apart is in level design. Replicating the main mistake of Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Team has put too many obstacles in the way of Sonic as he attempts to zoom through a level at high speed. These obstacles range from simple obstructions to groups of enemies that must be defeated or puzzles that must be solved. One area has you transporting dinosaur eggs to their appropriate nests, but since there are many branched paths, you have to loop around the level just finding the darn eggs before you can go on a hunt for the nests. The on-rails concept just doesn't fit the exploration necessary in this level. Other times, the levels will have long side scrolling portions where you must inch yourself left and right to avoid spikes and jump over barricades. It is awkward when Sonic stops in one of these areas so you can have complete control over his movement, then once he is past a specific obstacle will begin running automatically again. It is also awkward in general to have 3-D movement controls intact while playing from a 2-D perspective. It must be said that the level design does not reach Shadow the Hedgehog's heinous heights. Some of these levels are inadvertently fun, but they're few and far between.
One early level puts Sonic in front of a pack of raging Triceratops, and he must hit as many of the familiar “speed pads" as he can to avoid them. The problem is that Sonic Team has attempted to create a cinematic dinosaur chase that is shown from many different angles but, for simple gameplay purposes, I need to see where I'm going. The camera is often looking in the wrong direction, or at an awkward angle that confuses your left/right movement. It is also hard to actually hit the pads, and if you miss a few of them, the Triceratops will trample you. It also just so happens that in this level gaining rings is your top priority. It's a really sadistic level that you may have to play many times before completing.
The game is lacking linearity where it could use some – since you're unlocking everything out of order, often you have to go back to the early stages to play a mission you missed before you can progress. There is also an experience point system that is entirely out of place. As you level up, Sonic will gain new “abilities" which range from useless to absolutely necessary: “Improve steering control," or “Accelerate faster." The game is nearly unplayable at first until you gain these key abilities, making the controls go from awful to adequate. Some of the skills become necessary, like the ability to slow time down or speed it up, but it's never clear when to use these until too late. The organization of these skills (which must be equipped prior to starting a level) in the menu is confusing and annoying… actually, so is every part of the menus. You'll be seeing the menus a lot because every time you complete a single level (some of them in less than 45 seconds) you'll be sent back to select a new one.
No surprise again, Sonic Team has thrown in an overlong and ridiculous “plot" that attempts to motivate Sonic's adventures inside of the book “Arabian Nights." The voice acting is terrible, although the hand-drawn images are rather beautiful. Likewise, the game's graphics are perhaps the best on Wii, outside of Zelda. The levels look clean and polished, much unlike the stop-and-go gameplay mechanic. In terms of music, Sonic is once again billed as a “rough dude," which is why we hear angst-rock most of the time. Some of the level tunes break this mold and are catchy, in a Sonic way, almost making you think you could be playing an old Sonic game.
Secret Rings throws in a multiplayer party game extra that is amusing if you have people over. It attempts to emulate Mario Party with a game board interface, but the only part that's actually worthwhile are the mini-games themselves. Like most first generation Wii developers, Sonic Team was able to think up some fun and stupid mini-games that make the Wii Remote seem really cool. One of the best ones I encountered has you pretending to play a violin with the Wii Remote, and there are others similarly inventive. The party game element isn't too complicated, which means it will get old fairly quickly except for the occasional replay of an awesome mini-game.
Overall, Secret Rings isn't a new low, just a new disappointment. It seemed like, maybe, we would finally get a Sonic game that achieved its goals, namely speed and fun. Sonic Team needs to take the on-rails concept and thoroughly rework their previous notions about level design, and then perhaps we can get the 3-D Sonic game we've always wanted.
Pros:
Cons:
Graphics: 9.0
The varied environments are detailed and lush with good water, lava, and smoke effects. The framerate never drops and the animation is fluid. Cinema scenes are communicated through dynamic hand drawn pictures that are really gorgeous. Graphically, Sonic is a huge success.
Sound: 6.5
There are catchy songs, as well as some horrid awful ones. The voice acting is terrible. Sound effects are convincing and canonical.
Control: 5.0
Some great ideas are on display here with the Wii Remote used in unique ways. Unfortunately, timing jumps is awkward, as is Sonic's primary attack. When the game goes into a 2-D side-scrolling mode, the controls just don't work as they should – sometimes moving the Wii Remote left and right causes Sonic to move to his left and his right, other times the same motion causes him to move to the player's left or right.
Gameplay: 3.5
It's too stop-and-go, thanks to the level design. Some levels must be replayed over and over just to learn where all the obstacles are so you can get through without dying. Other levels have awkward camera angles or require you to have a skill that you haven't earned yet.
Lastability: 8.5
Every level is jammed with secrets, and you are scored with medals depending on how fast you complete them. Missions are also unlocked, and there is a whole party game mode to satisfy multiplayer cravings. This package is full; it's just too bad that the main game isn't satisfactory.
Final: 5.0
There's a lot to hate about this game, but with all the extras and the unique control scheme, some people may find it worthwhile. I don't recommend the game to anyone, though, and instead encourage a rental to the morbidly curious.
Post by: TrueNerd on March 05, 2007, 08:07:43 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on March 05, 2007, 08:15:57 PM
I'm still going to try the game, but it seems like I might take my time and wait for a price drop or the Summer before spending time on it.
Post by: IceCold on March 05, 2007, 08:22:56 PM
Post by: The Traveller on March 05, 2007, 09:36:42 PM
Post by: Shift Key on March 05, 2007, 10:01:26 PM
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Even a quick tap of the jump button has a delayed reaction, and jumping overall slows Sonic down.
Well, considering that no-one is able to react instantly, this is hardly surprising. Sure, games could choose to ignore reality, but when you factor in blisteringly fast speed, then something's gotta give.
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Replicating the main mistake of Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Team has put too many obstacles in the way of Sonic as he attempts to zoom through a level at high speed.
Safe drivers never speed. I guess its the same thing in this game. I didn't think this game would be easy, but maybe you found the hard part of the game.
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It is awkward when Sonic stops in one of these areas so you can have complete control over his movement, then once he is past a specific obstacle will begin running automatically again.
Again, maybe this is a "I haven't actually played the game" disclaimer, but perhaps there's a change of speed in the game at this stage. I'll bet the SAYGAH developers didn't create this game with the purpose of you "going a bazillion kilometres an hour and then finishing the game in fifteen minutes".
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The game is lacking linearity where it could use some – since you're unlocking everything out of order, often you have to go back to the early stages to play a mission you missed before you can progress.
OH NO IT COULD BE LIKE MOST GAMES! BAD SEGA BAD! DOUBLE STANDARDS! DOUBLE!
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No surprise again, Sonic Team has thrown in an overlong and ridiculous “plot" that attempts to motivate Sonic's adventures inside of the book “Arabian Nights."
Ahahahaha perhaps Sonic has had a story recently, but you're expecting quality? Seriously, just go and read Arabian Nights and announce the spoilers as the story goes along. Because Sonic was always about collecting more rings, not about saving a princess.
In summary, I think this has been an awfully biased review. Maybe it is to justify the score, maybe he's had a genuine issue with the game. He's more than welcome to argue with me regarding this, but I think he went into this game expecting something entirely different. Its disappointing that he's managed to get this review onto GoNintendo, which as we all know is the gateway to the greater interweb!
EDIT: Don't think these are the only arguments I have Svev, these are merely points that caught my eye.
Post by: RocketDarkness on March 05, 2007, 10:06:33 PM
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Jumping is a different matter: holding down the jump button causes Sonic to grind, and only upon releasing does he jump, causing a delay. Even a quick tap of the jump button has a delayed reaction, and jumping overall slows Sonic down. Also, homing attacks can only be performed after jumping, and you must “lock on" to an enemy to perform them. There are two problems here: one, it takes too long to jump. Two, you must be in the air for a certain amount of time before you actually “lock on." If you are running at full speed towards a gap and see an enemy at the last minute, you are likely to jump, performing your homing attack without locking on, and fall to your death. This means that whenever something unexpected shows up in the levels, you will die. There's never enough time to dodge, jump, or attack.
First off, the game explicitly refers to charging a jump as sliding, because, well, that's what he does. Not grinding. Secondly, homing attacks acquire targets as soon as you begin to slide, far before you even go airborne. The only reason you'd homing attack into oblivion is because you're BELOW your target, meaning you didn't jump high enough or waited too long. Lastly, there's a brake button for a reason. Try using it before you run off the edge next time. Heck, you can even quickly tap the brake and go into an extremely slow slide for the jump.
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These obstacles range from simple obstructions to groups of enemies that must be defeated or puzzles that must be solved. One area has you transporting dinosaur eggs to their appropriate nests, but since there are many branched paths, you have to loop around the level just finding the darn eggs before you can go on a hunt for the nests. The on-rails concept just doesn't fit the exploration necessary in this level.
One early level puts Sonic in front of a pack of raging Triceratops, and he must hit as many of the familiar “speed pads" as he can to avoid them. The problem is that Sonic Team has attempted to create a cinematic dinosaur chase that is shown from many different angles but, for simple gameplay purposes, I need to see where I'm going. The camera is often looking in the wrong direction, or at an awkward angle that confuses your left/right movement. It is also hard to actually hit the pads, and if you miss a few of them, the Triceratops will trample you. It also just so happens that in this level gaining rings is your top priority. It's a really sadistic level that you may have to play many times before completing.
In regards to Dino Jungle, I will concede that the two missions mentioned are quite obnoxious, though the Egg-collecting mission has a few shortcuts to get where you need to. It's only really brought down by the random egg/nest locations.
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As you level up, Sonic will gain new “abilities" which range from useless to absolutely necessary: “Improve steering control," or “Accelerate faster." The game is nearly unplayable at first until you gain these key abilities, making the controls go from awful to adequate. Some of the skills become necessary, like the ability to slow time down or speed it up, but it's never clear when to use these until too late. The organization of these skills (which must be equipped prior to starting a level) in the menu is confusing and annoying… actually, so is every part of the menus. You'll be seeing the menus a lot because every time you complete a single level (some of them in less than 45 seconds) you'll be sent back to select a new one.
Okay, it can't be that hard to figure out that you should use Time Break when you see a tricky obstacle approaching, can it? Come on! "Hm, there's a rotating fan in front of me! Too bad I don't have any abilities that let me better maneuver through its blades!" Secondly, you can sort the skills FIVE different ways, many of which group them together based on similar usages. Being kicked out to the menu isn't that bad, due to the fact you can get back into a level within probably 20 seconds, including loading times.
Additionally, while it is slightly annoying to mix "essential" abilities such as Speed up and Charger into the more specialized abilities, in some missions, you'll be glad you're able to lower your maximum speed, or turn down your acceleration. Trust me. And when you beat the final boss, you gain the ability to turn off even your normal abilities, so you can ditch the homing attack if you should so desire (it's very useful to do this for some missions), or maybe eliminate the charge jump. Heck, you can turn off all his fancy 3D abilities and try playing through the game like a 2D Sonic if you want!
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angst-rock most of the time
No.
Lastly, why no mention about the massive amount of unlockable content within the game? You get at least one thing unlocked for every gold medal you get, including concept art, songs, cutscenes, and other cool stuff.
To those reading this: yes, the game is hard. You'll fight with the controls. You'll swear. You'll curse the camera. But it gets exponentially better, and you'll be able to eliminate the issues almost completely. There's a ton of different stuff to do. Even when the missions are the same (ie Don't collect any pearls), the way the level is set up can generate a completely different experience other than "well, it's the same mission in a different level".
Post by: Infernal Monkey on March 05, 2007, 10:23:14 PM
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Gameplay: 3.5
It's too stop-and-go, thanks to the level design. Some levels must be replayed over and over just to learn where all the obstacles are so you can get through without dying
That's a good thing for a platform game.
Post by: Mario on March 05, 2007, 10:50:01 PM
Post by: Nephilim on March 06, 2007, 12:23:42 AM
wasnt that the major fault of the recent PSP sonic game also? fact u had to replay stages because they were so poorly designed, reminds me of that annoying inair stage in sonic advanced *shives*
Days of having hard games, purely because they were designed badly should of died with the nes
There are others ways of adding difficulty, such as megaman series has done
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 06, 2007, 12:58:55 AM
But boy is GoldenPhoenix going to be all over this one...
Post by: RocketDarkness on March 06, 2007, 02:31:44 AM
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Originally posted by: pap64
This wouldn't be the first time NWR has severely rated a decent/solid/good game (case in point Wii Play, Rayman Raving Rabbis etc.)...
But boy is GoldenPhoenix going to be all over this one...
Next up: SSX Blur is "broken" and the Wii controls are a "shoehorned gimmick". =p
Post by: Ceric on March 06, 2007, 02:36:30 AM
Post by: ShyGuy on March 06, 2007, 03:04:24 AM
Post by: Caliban on March 06, 2007, 03:29:15 AM
Post by: trip1eX on March 06, 2007, 04:02:25 AM
The 'Levitated Ruin' world which is maybe halfway had me saying enough is enough. It has these strong winds in it and I must have been blown back 30 times and it seemed like it was unavoidable. And when I mean blown back I mean you're watching Sonic move backward slowly for 5 seconds while you just sit there pulling your hair out. And the other half of the level is Sonic moving along paths of light and that part is pretty much on autopilot. Actually alot of the game is on autopilot.
It's just a very poor design. The graphics are good, but I think that makes the frustration you feel all the worse.
Yeah and the jumping? It sucks. The quick jumping is ok. You can just tap the button and Sonic jumps. It still doesn't feel great, and it's barely passable.
But alot of the time you have to jump high and to do that you have to hold down the jump button for a second and you don't jump until you release it. It just kills any sense of speed or excitement. And this is different from your Mario game where you jump right away no matter what, but the longer you hold it down the farther you jump. I'm puzzled as to why they didn't go that route??!??!
Other hair pulling examples is one level that has you going around in circles looking for some eggs or something. YOu find 1 or 2, but not the others. Well there's a certain point in the level that you're just supposed to jump off on instead of jumping and dashing and at that point is the 'gateway' to the other half of the level. I don't think it's supposed to be secret. It's just a terrible design. You can't control the camera so it's pretty hard to spot. Also the game design plants a 'bumper' at that spot that lights up with a red target indicating you're supposed to dash which really makes it hard to find this 'gateway.'
I could go on about the terrible ring system and skill points and experience and the tedious button pressing in between missions or the random unlocking of missions and worlds. That part of the game should have been thrown out. No reason for it. It's an idea that wasn't working and they should have dropped it.
Eh stay away. Sadi-masochists only. I imagine if you put up with alot of early pain you get squeeze some reward out of the game. But imo then you're only supporting more of these games in the long run. It's not that the game is well-done, but hard like say Ninja GAiden. But that it's not well-done and so you're constantly not sure what you're supposed to do or where you're supposed to go or how the controls work or if they work and that leads to frustration and hair pulling.
I will say 2 good things about it. The dashing motion control mechanisms feels great except on the wind blowing level and jumping in a winged pot and flying upwards with motion controls also feels great.
Still please rent first.
Post by: Acefondu on March 06, 2007, 04:05:38 AM
Wow, just wow. If memory serves, the old Sonic games had stop and go too, and the joy came when you memorized a level to a point where the stop never came back. This game has that.
The surfing part in the game, riding a bullet, slowing time down, all these things made were fabulous.
This is honestly the first Sonic game I've actually enjoyed. If you're frustrated with the game then get better at it!
Post by: pyrokamileon on March 06, 2007, 04:42:53 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 06, 2007, 05:38:34 AM
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Originally posted by: pyrokamileon
wow, I wish I had had a chance to read this review before the game shipped. you guys need to get closer to these companies so that you don't have to wait like everyone else to get games... I heard from all the sites that had either had previous experience with this game or who got it early so they could review it and I doubt if I heard one bad thing about it! so I bought it, I was excited for it (hell I bought Sonic Adventure 2 for the 'Cube and I actually liked that one). but now that I have it... well let just say I feel your pain. I don't feel like going back to the review and dissecting and analyzing it. how about this: if they could get the basics right then the rest of the game should be passable. well I'm not satisfied with the controls. it feels like they broke the game and said well ya know the farther you get in the game the more tools we'll give you so you can fix it yourself! and uh well... isn't the beginning the part of the gamer where I'm supposed to be drawn in!? so much for that. in retrospect I kinda wish I had just rented it first... but then again I am still at the beginning I do plan to play the game farther than that (hoping it gets better all along the way). I'm just a little discouraged at the moment. being a sonic fan and being that I already spent the money on the game (it's not like I can undo that part) lets just hope I enjoy the rest of the game more than I did the beginning.
Renting is ALWAYS the best way to go if you are not 100% sure about a game. There will always be chance that you will be disappointed with a game even if it got great reviews and lots of fan appreciation. That's what happened with S_B and Elebits. He thought he was getting a good game due to good reviews and solid impressions, but he ended up being disappointed by it.
So again, rent if you are not sure if you will like the game.
Post by: GioGio on March 06, 2007, 05:57:39 AM
But oh well if people don't like it. At least we all can agree it's far better than Sonic 2006.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 06, 2007, 06:19:54 AM
Is this serious?
I got it right on my first try, with an audience watching, to boot. This can't possibly be one of the so-called "badly designed" early obstacles in the game. Was I just lucky to get past it? I'm literally expecting crazier, more unfair stuff than that to be mentioned as a review complaint. The rest of the stage was just standard run-into-enemies-that-are-kinda-hard-to-see, and I was more worried about running into walls due to late jumps than anything else.this is as far as I've played in 2 weeks, and i'm hoping to see more twisty challenges
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 06, 2007, 06:36:50 AM
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Originally posted by: NewsBot Secret Rings revels in gameplay features that bastardize Sonic and have nothing to do with the core concept of his original 16-bit games. I'm really surprised that Sega was able to screw this up.
Considering that the original games were based upon the principle of moving very quickly while forcing the player to react with split-second decisions, I don't see how this game does anything but follow in their footsteps.
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The control system isn't awful, although it is quirky. Moving left and right with the Wii Remote is a fine feature, and I hope Sonic Team uses it again. Jumping is a different matter: holding down the jump button causes Sonic to grind, and only upon releasing does he jump, causing a delay. Even a quick tap of the jump button has a delayed reaction, and jumping overall slows Sonic down. Also, homing attacks can only be performed after jumping, and you must “lock on" to an enemy to perform them. There are two problems here: one, it takes too long to jump. Two, you must be in the air for a certain amount of time before you actually “lock on." If you are running at full speed towards a gap and see an enemy at the last minute, you are likely to jump, performing your homing attack without locking on, and fall to your death. This means that whenever something unexpected shows up in the levels, you will die. There's never enough time to dodge, jump, or attack. Sonic Team wanted the game to be fast paced, but why did they make Sonic's attacks so slow?
Ev, did you...finish the game? Specifically, did you play past the Dinosaur Jungle or did the egg mission frustrate you to the point that you just opted to give up?
The reason why I ask is because every fault you listed in the above paragraph becomes rectified through new skills which are unlocked as you level up. First, you receive a skill which dramatically reduces the time you need to hold the jump button to jump. Second, you receive a skill which greatly reduces the amount of time it takes to lock on to new targets, allowing you to rifle off homing attacks in rapid succession.
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Where Secret Rings really falls apart is in level design. Replicating the main mistake of Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Team has put too many obstacles in the way of Sonic as he attempts to zoom through a level at high speed. These obstacles range from simple obstructions to groups of enemies that must be defeated or puzzles that must be solved.
Obstacles and puzzles have always been a part of the Sonic formula. In fact, we get far more of that here than we ever did in the "hold forward" games like SA. Weaving puzzles into the gameplay, like forcing players to wait before using the homing attack for an enemy to appear or to leap and use the jump cancel to land on platforms, makes the game challenging.
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As you level up, Sonic will gain new “abilities" which range from useless to absolutely necessary: “Improve steering control," or “Accelerate faster." The game is nearly unplayable at first until you gain these key abilities, making the controls go from awful to adequate. Some of the skills become necessary, like the ability to slow time down or speed it up, but it's never clear when to use these until too late. The organization of these skills (which must be equipped prior to starting a level) in the menu is confusing and annoying… actually, so is every part of the menus. You'll be seeing the menus a lot because every time you complete a single level (some of them in less than 45 seconds) you'll be sent back to select a new one.
First of all, it was clear that Sonic Team didn't want players moving at a blazing speed right out of the gate and feeling they have no control over the game, hence why the system of unlocking abilities was added. Second, I didn't have a problem with the very first tutorial level which required me to steer left and right to collect rings. In fact, I didn't miss a single ring and I don't consider myself "steady handed". In fact, watching me trying to hold my hand steady will immediately pang of a Parkinson's patient.
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No surprise again, Sonic Team has thrown in an overlong and ridiculous “plot" that attempts to motivate Sonic's adventures inside of the book “Arabian Nights." The voice acting is terrible, although the hand-drawn images are rather beautiful.
Now that just isn't fair. First of all, the voice acting is fine, especially compared to other games in this day and age. Second, the plot is an off-shoot plot (basically a "Neverending Story" take), but what is the comparison to here?
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Secret Rings throws in a multiplayer party game extra that is amusing if you have people over. It attempts to emulate Mario Party with a game board interface, but the only part that's actually worthwhile are the mini-games themselves. Like most first generation Wii developers, Sonic Team was able to think up some fun and stupid mini-games that make the Wii Remote seem really cool. One of the best ones I encountered has you pretending to play a violin with the Wii Remote, and there are others similarly inventive. The party game element isn't too complicated, which means it will get old fairly quickly except for the occasional replay of an awesome mini-game.
Thank you for giving more credit to the minigames than most reviewers have.
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Overall, Secret Rings isn't a new low, just a new disappointment. It seemed like, maybe, we would finally get a Sonic game that achieved its goals, namely speed and fun. Sonic Team needs to take the on-rails concept and thoroughly rework their previous notions about level design, and then perhaps we can get the 3-D Sonic game we've always wanted.
Here's where I take issue with this review: yes, the game takes tangents which involve slower gameplay or puzzle solving, but for the most part, you are ALWAYS hurling forward, even in most of the missions, like "Collect Rings" or "Beat the clock". However, the speedy gameplay is awesome, and it's HARD. Holy crap, we FINALLY get a game which isn't afraid to force the player to get better or learn the layout of the level in order to succeed.
Between steering to avoid obstacles, homing in on enemies in mid-air, jump canceling to get Sonic on the ground faster and using the small jump to clear minor obstacles like spikes, the game comes hurling at you in such a way that your reflexes had better be pretty decent or you're going to get creamed. And I don't see anything wrong with that.
I think this is a massive improvement over any other 3D Sonic game, and while I acknowledge that the game would have been even more fun if it was just steering Sonic through obstacle courses for 15 straight hours, the side missions don't take away so much from the game that I stop enjoying it.
I'm guessing the speed gameplay just didn't jive with you for some reason, and if that's the case then I would have passed this off to another reviewer for the same reason I would personally pass off turn-based RPGs off to another reviewer: I already know I don't like them.
Post by: Koekoenutt on March 06, 2007, 07:05:26 AM
The controls really are iffy. When people complain about the controls, it seems everyone is taking it as moving left and right. I really think jumping doesn't feel natural at all, and the flicking to attack/shoot forward in air is really tacked on. I think when the reviewer was talking about targeting the enemies, I don't think it was about being able to target generally... You have to wait for it to turn red to actually make the attack, and having it as a green target does nothing for you most of the time. On top of that, moving backwards seems really tacked on. Granted, after getting to about the 3 World.. You are used to the controls and getting level upgrades that help the control out a lot.. but this game NEEDS precision and timing. I find it way to easy to slip up the controls and do the wrong thing under pressure for how delecate you need to be. It's a game of memorizing the level, and I find that annoying.. Especially when you go threw the whole level and they make the last 5 seconds of the level unexpectedly and unreasonably hard. You can get past it of course, but I found it annoying on most levels that you have to start at the very beginning when the only real challenge is at the end. Granted there are some levels that use a waypoint system, but most of the time they don't. I really don't see how anyone who has completed most of the game, can't say that a lot of levels have poor, lazy level design and some missions/levels were poorly thought about. I found myself pissed a lot of times, becuase I knew when and what I needed to do exactly, but becuase of the level design and poor layout of controls, made it extremely annoying to pull off.
Don't get me wrong. The game has it's enjoyable parts. Riding on a bullet, the Magic carpet ride.. It's just to bad you don't see stuff like this more, than some lazy level design that has you memorizing a level completely. I'm not all for beating a level in one single ride, but the way they did most obstacles, seemed like they put it there just to be annoying. A lot of obstacles in the game seemed unreasonably placed. I think there is a huge difference between a good, reasonable challenge and putting things in the game just to frustrate you, just to make it harder. It is a fun game, but I also feel that the game holds you back from enjoying it more, and really holds itself back in general. It's a perfect example of one of those games that are "Just Good Enough", and being the only 3D Sonic game that is slightly enjoyable to come out in the past few years.. Makes it even easier to let yourself sink into.
In general, I thought this review handled the problems with the game quite well. He could have talked about more of the positive things about the game, like the boss fights being pretty well done and challenging. I really only had a problem with one boss fight, and that had to do more with the controls than the boss encounter itself. I enjoyed the game "enough" to play it most of the way threw, but in the back of head I was down right disappointed. Way to many times in the game I asked myself, "Wtf were they thinking?". It's a likeable game, but it's still just an average sonic that isn't anything to boast in my opinion. Better than what has game out from Sonic/Sega Team, but the game lacks and holds you back a lot at times.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 06, 2007, 08:23:26 AM
Post by: wandering on March 06, 2007, 09:00:26 AM
The problem is Nintendo fans. They're addicted to crappy games. Oh, they may tell themselves, as they tighten the strap around their arm, that they play games like Secret Rings because they enjoy them. But, deep down, they know they're wasting their life away on bad games with no redeeming value. And they know they're doing it, not out of want, but out of need. What's worse is that, to make themselves feel better about themselves, they try to rope in other people. They'll say things like "Just one try won't hurt, c'mon, just one rental," and "everyone's doing it", and "Sonic and the Secret Rings doesn't suck."
But I hope your review does help some people. Maybe it will make someone realize that winners don't play Sonic. That bad game users doesn't just hurt themselves, but everyone around them. And if your does that - if it saves just one life - then it'll all be worth it.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 06, 2007, 09:11:39 AM
Gamespot was right afterall.
Post by: Koekoenutt on March 06, 2007, 09:17:53 AM
Also, I did think the reviewer, based on his scoring.. was harsh. I would definately rate this game higher than a 5, but like GoldenPhoenix.. I wouldn't rate it anything higher than 7. Putting 3.5 in gameplay was really low scoring, becuase as much as I complain, I still find it enjoyable enough to at least finish. Then again, I'm also the type of person who hates putting a game half way down and not finishing it.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 06, 2007, 09:23:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: wandering
The problem is Nintendo fans.
It's funny: I almost raised this point, except from a completely different angle.
Nintendo fans are spoiled rotten by most games today. Take TP or Mario 64, for example: it is IMMENSELY hard to die in these games. The focus of the game is adventuring with little to no chance of death.
Guess what? Sonic team TRIED adventuring and people b*tched up a storm that "Sonic is all about speed!", so they give us a game where the entire focus is trying to surmount obstacles while moving at breakneck speeds where one wrong move can equate death and people get up in arms about the game and how it's "frustrating", "too hard", etc. etc.
God forbid, we Nintendo fans actually sit down to a game in which we die and KEEP dying until we, oh I dunno, GET BETTER AT IT?! How feeble have we as gamers become when we become offended when a game is difficult to the point that we don't plow through it without any trace of difficulty?
NSMB was easy as hell, TP was a cake walk and Nintendo fans actually pissed and moaned that Mario SUNSHINE was too hard. Huh?
Now, we have a game which has a learning curve to the control, but rather than taking a hit and simply losing some easily-recovered life when you f*ck up, you die. OMGWTFBBQ!!!!!11!!!11!!!!!!1!
But to make the whiners look even worse, Sonic doesn't even HAVE lives!!! He just starts again 20 feet back from where you died, not forcing these whiners to even start the level over most of the time.
I have no problem with this control scheme, once I learned it. When I figured out the rhythm of steering Sonic, homing attacks, jump timing and jump canceling, it rapidly became second nature.
How did we forget the glory days of the 16-bit era where players didn't blame the GAME when they sucked at it but tried harder until they got it right?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 06, 2007, 09:25:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: wandering
The problem is Nintendo fans.
It's funny: I almost raised this point, except from a completely different angle.
Nintendo fans are spoiled rotten by most games today. Take TP or Mario 64, for example: it is IMMENSELY hard to die in these games. The focus of the game is adventuring with little to no chance of death.
Guess what? Sonic team TRIED adventuring and people b*tched up a storm that "Sonic is all about speed!", so they give us a game where the entire focus is trying to surmount obstacles while moving at breakneck speeds where one wrong move can equate death and people get up in arms about the game and how it's "frustrating", "too hard", etc. etc.
God forbid, we Nintendo fans actually sit down to a game in which we die and KEEP dying until we, oh I dunno, GET BETTER AT IT?! How feeble have we as gamers become when we become offended when a game is difficult to the point that we don't plow through it without any trace of difficulty?
NSMB was easy as hell, TP was a cake walk and Nintendo fans actually pissed and moaned that Mario SUNSHINE was too hard. Huh?
Now, we have a game which has a learning curve to the control, but rather than taking a hit and simply losing some easily-recovered life when you f*ck up, you die. OMGWTFBBQ!!!!!11!!!11!!!!!!1!
But to make the whiners look even worse, Sonic doesn't even HAVE lives!!! He just starts again 20 feet back from where you died, not forcing these whiners to even start the level over most of the time.
I have no problem with this control scheme, once I learned it. When I figured out the rhythm of steering Sonic, homing attacks, jump timing and jump canceling, it rapidly became second nature.
How did we forget the glory days of the 16-bit era where players didn't blame the GAME when they sucked at it but tried harder until they got it right?
All that may be true about games being easier, but Sonic is hard because it has some poorly designed levels and clunky controls. A game can be challenging and be well designed, sadly Sonic SR misses the well designed part by a mile in places.
Post by: Jessicagirl on March 06, 2007, 09:26:27 AM
Reminds me why I don't come to this sight nearly as much as I used to.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 06, 2007, 09:28:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Jessicagirl
It seems as though this review got called out. I am going to have to disagree with it as well. I don't like how people compare games to the "good old days" when these people seem to lack knowledge about what those "good old days" were about. Though looking at Gamerankings.com, it is clear that the opinions held in this review are not agreed upon by the vast majority of reviewers or gamers. This is one of those reviews that can be safely ignored.
Reminds me why I don't come to this sight nearly as much as I used to.
Good ole days were hampered by poor balance and level design, so I think it is fair to compare this game to the "good ole" days in that aspect.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 06, 2007, 09:32:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix All that may be true about games being easier, but Sonic is hard because it has some poorly designed levels and clunky controls. A game can be challenging and be well designed, sadly Sonic SR misses the well designed part by a mile in places.
Did you miss the part where I pointed out how much better I did once I got the rhythm of the game down pat?
And I just don't see what's so wrong with the level designs. Yeah, they're at their best when you're moving through them at incredible speeds, but I'm just finishing up the remaining missions to unlock the last world now and the ONLY level design I didn't like was the one which forced you to press buttons to collect 10 rings. Everything else was fine.
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix Good ole days were hampered by poor balance and level design, so I think it is fair to compare this game to the "good ole" days in that aspect.
No, the "good ole days" were bolstered by undaunted players who wouldn't declare a game "too hard" and "frustrating" when it called for them to practice and get better at it.
I find it ironic that a lot of the VC games NWR posts as "safe for everyone" were, in fact, ridiculously hard and, had people no memory of playing them when they were young and the fun they had with them, would very likely rake them across the coals for "poor level design", "balance" and "bad controls".
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 06, 2007, 09:43:08 AM
Nintendo's working VERY HARD to eliminate traditional play and bring all those gamers back with zero-pressure, no-surprises, patient, non-trial & error non-gameplay!
We've got to get with the times!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 06, 2007, 09:46:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix All that may be true about games being easier, but Sonic is hard because it has some poorly designed levels and clunky controls. A game can be challenging and be well designed, sadly Sonic SR misses the well designed part by a mile in places.
Did you miss the part where I pointed out how much better I did once I got the rhythm of the game down pat?
And I just don't see what's so wrong with the level designs. Yeah, they're at their best when you're moving through them at incredible speeds, but I'm just finishing up the remaining missions to unlock the last world now and the ONLY level design I didn't like was the one which forced you to press buttons to collect 10 rings. Everything else was fine.Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix Good ole days were hampered by poor balance and level design, so I think it is fair to compare this game to the "good ole" days in that aspect.
No, the "good ole days" were bolstered by undaunted players who wouldn't declare a game "too hard" and "frustrating" when it called for them to practice and get better at it.
I find it ironic that a lot of the VC games NWR posts as "safe for everyone" were, in fact, ridiculously hard and, had people no memory of playing them when they were young and the fun they had with them, would very likely rake them across the coals for "poor level design", "balance" and "bad controls".
And they would be right to rake them accross the coals for being poorly designed, personally many of the games they recommended for everyone I seriously disagreed with (Kid Icarus, Zelda, and even Bonk to a certain degree). In regards to Sonic, the controls are still clunky, obstacles seem randomly placed (Dino land being the biggest example of this), and it has some the dumbest missions around that slow the game down (Collecting things like the eggs were stupidity at its finest, it wasn't fun. The same applies to collecting coins, or ridiculous challenges like "Don't break the vases". If you were going to have diversionary missions they should have been additional to the game, not part of the story mode which is severely hurt pace wise by the missions. The game should have focused on what Sonic does best, blazing through a wide variety of levels.
Post by: Koekoenutt on March 06, 2007, 09:53:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
But to make the whiners look even worse, Sonic doesn't even HAVE lives!!! He just starts again 20 feet back from where you died, not forcing these whiners to even start the level over most of the time.
I have no problem with this control scheme, once I learned it. When I figured out the rhythm of steering Sonic, homing attacks, jump timing and jump canceling, it rapidly became second nature.
This is where I disagree. On the levels that are tedious and longer, they have waypoints from about 20-60 feet back from where you died. A lot of levels also started you off from the beginning though, and I found this to be annoying on the levels that it did change from this aspect. I bet you still slip on the controls very often, even though you have learned the controls. The controls are down to a habit for me, but this game requires the most precise controls, and sometimes it just doesn't deliver as well as it really could have. The controls work, I agree.. but to just throw off the idea that the controls could have been way more thought out and intuitive, I think is being stubborn. To say that you haven't gotten made at some type of feat in the game that you had to over come, all becuase you slipped on the controls.. is crazy to me.
I enjoyed Mario Sunshine a lot, I still own it to this day and never traded it in. Hell, I traded in Wind Waker becuase I had no money and wanted to buy new games, and I loved that game. I love a challenge. I bought Gradius from the VC Channel, becuase it's a challenge. Hell, the game intro video shows the player CHEATING in the demo. Same reason I bought R-Type, for the extreme challenge it gives you. I love playing Contra 3 at least three times a week becuase beating it on hard difficulty gives me a sense of accomplishment. The sameway Mario Sunshine gives me. Sonic to me, Isn't really that hard. Some of the missions really do peak immensely from other missions, but the way the levels are designed are just frustrating. The way things come at you, and where things are placed. Some of the worlds are really thought out and done nicely. It's challenging but you can still go threw the level and seem to have a rythme and flow to it. Monster placement in just the right areas to get to another part of the level you couldn't reach. There are really song strong missions and levels in this game, but then you get to the ones that are just poorly thought about and seemed slapped on to make the game longer. The game has a lot of content to unlock, sure.. but it's damn repeative and frustrating for something so little. Find the Fire Rings is enjoyable and a challenge.. Making me go threw a whole level just so the end can screw me becuase they wanted to put a ridiculous amount of coins right at the end of a No Coin mission is stupid. Putting in boxes with pearls in them on a no pearl mission, where it's almost a habit and reflex to automatically do that, let alone easy to slip up and do, is poor level design. Some missions it seems like they TRY and piss you off, and not trying to make it hard creatively.
I think it's kind of rude to call me a whiner about the game, becuase it could obviously be worked on a hell of out more. They tried so hard to impress people, that I think they looked passed a lot of things. Anyways, It's just my opinion and review, and I personally don't think calling out the negatives of the game that really bring it down, that I should be called a whiner. I disagree with the scoring, but the review itself handled it pretty well on the negatives. Even with all the reviews on Meta-critic, Almost every review has said something about the controls being clunky, even after power-ups. So, Obviously I'm not the only one who has slipped up a lot and got frustrated, and the controls aren't exactly perfect. I also loved Excite Truck and is one of those keepers that I have for the Wii. So unlike GoldenPhoenix, I like the tilt and turn controls.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 06, 2007, 09:56:18 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Watch out, Smash, it's those same difficult games that scared away casual gamers from Nintendo all this time!
Nintendo's working VERY HARD to eliminate traditional play and bring all those gamers back with zero-pressure, no-surprises, patient, non-trial & error non-gameplay!
We've got to get with the times!
Who says there can't be a market for both hardcore and casual games? The casual games may be eating Japan, yes, but the hardcore games have also been selling like crazy. And as of now, the best selling games across the globe are the games fans can't get enough of.
Technically, this debacle has been going on WAY before the casual games reared their heads. It was during the N64/PSone era where games started to drop more hints, give you more lives and started playing fair. A friend of mine was constantly saying how today's gamers are soft and that games are too easy. At first I thought he was being an old fart, but now that I look deeper he is right.
As for the Secret rings argument, I think we all have learned that sometimes the value of a game lies in the eyes of the gamer.
Its obvious that many gamers loved or truly enjoyed SR, flaws and all, while gamers like Evan and Golden couldn't comprehend the game's appeal and called it the worse. Its a love/hate game. That we can all agree on.
However, what TRULY annoys the hell out of this argument is how the gamers that hated SR keep bashing or ridiculing either the game or the fans that enjoyed simply because it didn't meet THEIR standards.
I'm sick and tired of the "Nintendo fans like crappy games because they are desperate" argument. I'm sick and tired of the sarcasm used when talking about the game.
Yes, you didn't like the game. Too bad. Now MOVE ON and let the people that enjoyed the game keep enjoying it.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 06, 2007, 09:56:34 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 06, 2007, 09:57:10 AM
Post by: Koekoenutt on March 06, 2007, 10:02:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
As for the Secret rings argument, I think we all have learned that sometimes the value of a game lies in the eyes of the gamer.
Its obvious that many gamers loved or truly enjoyed SR, flaws and all, while gamers like Evan and Golden couldn't comprehend the game's appeal and called it the worse. Its a love/hate game. That we can all agree on.
That is something we can all agree on. =D
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 06, 2007, 10:04:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Pap have you even played the game yet?
I personally haven't played it yet, so I can't talk about the game itself.
I'm mainly talking about how each camp has handled this very poorly and I simply don't like the sarcasm used. Like I said, I HATE how whenever SR is brought up someone says "It's sad how Nintendo fans are so starved for games they embrace bad ones".
It's OK if you didn't like the game, and its OK if you liked it. I'm simply saying that there's no need to antagonize each other. After all, when me and S_B criticized Elebits, we didn't antagonize anyone that liked it, and giving it a fair review and said that the game is worth a rent at least since it is one of those games that some will love, others will hate.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 06, 2007, 10:08:47 AM
Post by: trip1eX on March 06, 2007, 10:44:49 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 06, 2007, 11:54:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Pap have you even played the game yet?
I personally haven't played it yet, so I can't talk about the game itself.
I'm mainly talking about how each camp has handled this very poorly and I simply don't like the sarcasm used. Like I said, I HATE how whenever SR is brought up someone says "It's sad how Nintendo fans are so starved for games they embrace bad ones".
It's OK if you didn't like the game, and its OK if you liked it. I'm simply saying that there's no need to antagonize each other. After all, when me and S_B criticized Elebits, we didn't antagonize anyone that liked it, and giving it a fair review and said that the game is worth a rent at least since it is one of those games that some will love, others will hate.
Ah but the only difference is that Elebits was a great, polished game, and Sonic and the Secret Rings isn't. j/k
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on March 06, 2007, 11:55:11 AM
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on March 06, 2007, 11:58:09 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 06, 2007, 12:01:44 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 06, 2007, 12:34:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: pap64Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Pap have you even played the game yet?
I personally haven't played it yet, so I can't talk about the game itself.
I'm mainly talking about how each camp has handled this very poorly and I simply don't like the sarcasm used. Like I said, I HATE how whenever SR is brought up someone says "It's sad how Nintendo fans are so starved for games they embrace bad ones".
It's OK if you didn't like the game, and its OK if you liked it. I'm simply saying that there's no need to antagonize each other. After all, when me and S_B criticized Elebits, we didn't antagonize anyone that liked it, and giving it a fair review and said that the game is worth a rent at least since it is one of those games that some will love, others will hate.
Ah but the only difference is that Elebits was a great, polished game, and Sonic and the Secret Rings isn't. j/k
Elebits wasn't that polished as it suffered from launch-itis.
Here's the stuff I found while playing SB's copy:
The game slows down greatly when too much stuff is going on
The game jumps between 60 FPS and 30 FPS, sometimes less due to the slowdown
Controls (especially for movement) are somewhat slow
Your character gets stuck every once in a while
The voice acting is terrible
My main gripe with the game was that it was too long and it got tedious after a while. They should have taken a cue from Katamary Damacy and stopped at 10 or 15 levels.
Post by: ShyGuy on March 06, 2007, 03:03:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
Regardless, just because Evan's review doesn't jive with the average on GameRankings doesn't mean it is less valid than all those others.
The review is less valid because of Evan's penchant for melodrama and hyperbole.
Post by: Khushrenada on March 06, 2007, 03:51:14 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 06, 2007, 04:53:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I think I should be made a staff member and give a second opinion!
No, they can't have a staff member give Elebits a 12 out of 10 without the site looking bad.
Though, I should point out that I gave Elebits a 7.5 in my review and Evan gave it a 6.
Now its YOUR turn to agree with him, I guess.
Post by: Arbok on March 06, 2007, 05:44:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
It's very telling that about half the people in this thread agree with the review, and the other half disagree.
Counting them, it's more like 75% (users, not posts) seem to disagree...
Haven't played the game, so I won't comment myself, but the users in this thread are clearly more in favor of the game.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 06, 2007, 05:58:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I think I should be made a staff member and give a second opinion!
No, they can't have a staff member give Elebits a 12 out of 10 without the site looking bad.
Though, I should point out that I gave Elebits a 7.5 in my review and Evan gave it a 6.
Now its YOUR turn to agree with him, I guess.
Actually don't tell anyone this but I would probably give Elebits an 8-8.5, and tend to exagerrate my exuberance for it
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 06, 2007, 05:59:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ArbokQuote
Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
It's very telling that about half the people in this thread agree with the review, and the other half disagree.
Counting them, it's more like 75% (users, not posts) seem to disagree...
Haven't played the game, so I won't comment myself, but the users in this thread are clearly more in favor of the game.
::Plays menacing music:: Clearly that indicates my 3rd party inflation theory.
Post by: SixthAngel on March 07, 2007, 06:49:40 PM
On another note it is nice to see a game where I actually die on a Nintendo console, your supposed to die in games sometimes.
Post by: IceCold on March 07, 2007, 06:56:04 PM
About the review, sadly I haven't trusted NWR reviews for a long time now. Especially with the Wii, I've found that I enjoyed a lot of the games reviewed quite badly here, and would rate them higher. Then there are the games which I find are quite overrated, so it's inconsistent, really. I'd go as far as to say that it's true that PGC has gone downhill, and the forums are the main attraction to me now. I rarely visit the main site.
I find that my views line up best with N-Sider's reviews.. too bad they don't do many. If I'm unsure about a game, I usually sort through a few reviews, then instead of concentrating on the reviewer's opinion, I look at their pros and cons. Then I decide if I'll be able to handle the negative aspects, or if I consider them "negative" at all.
Post by: KDR_11k on March 07, 2007, 08:42:24 PM
That's how many games over how many years?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 10:23:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Its called a self fulfilling prophesy. Everyone was asking if the game won't be bad, not if it will be good. The thread in the main forums was "I hope secret of the rings doesn't suck." Reviewers, especially Nintendo fans, will come in looking for faults whether they like it or not.
On another note it is nice to see a game where I actually die on a Nintendo console, your supposed to die in games sometimes.
I especially like games that you die because poor level designs and crappy controls that make it more difficult than it should. I'm beginning to wonder if some of the Sonic supporters who praise it for its so called "challenge" would be thrilled to death if a company (maybe even Nintendo) created a game where you have to battle hundreds enemies at once, with gimped controls, horrible framerate, 1 life (No continues), and obstacles scattered every couple of inches that can give you instant death. That would be hard wouldn't it? And I'm getting the impression if a game is "hard" regardless of WHY it is hard, is a great game. Who cares about game design, controls, innovation, presentation, it should be HARD above all else because that equals great.
Post by: Svevan on March 07, 2007, 10:44:48 PM
Quote
About the review, sadly I haven't trusted NWR reviews for a long time now.
Sorry to hear that Ice. Wish I could convince you otherwise, but your opinions don't seem to match up. I think time will vindicate us, but time could also indict us - we shall see.
Edit: Please know that I believe, as most of NWR does, in using the whole scale. In truth, a 5.0 isn't a negative review, just a middling one. I had a lot of bad things to say about the game, but the score reigns that in - some people may enjoy it, but I don't think anyone should lay out 50 clams for it.
This also applies to Elebits, which I gave a 6.0, which means it is in many ways a good game (with lots of flaws). I think it's funny that IGN has to defend their 6.9 (which is apparently really low for them) when Matt's opinion of the game is probably pretty close to mine. 6.9, though, is a really positive score. For reference, I would've given Double Dash a 7.0.
Post by: KDR_11k on March 08, 2007, 12:54:58 AM
0-6: Not worth buying except as a joke present (heh, I remember the look on the face of a friend when I handed him Britney's Dance Beat as a birthday present, of course I gave him a real present after he was over the shock).
7: Somewhat good, maybe worth it in the bargain bin but don't expect it to be fun all the time.
8: Good. Should be worth buying, at full price if it's a genre you're very interested in, in the bargain bin if it's not as interesting to you. The game will be mostly fun with only few unfun spots.
9: Great. Worth retail price. Fun throughout.
10: A lengthy way of saying 9.
Two digit ratings are rounded to the lower value (i.e. 8*% is read as 8)
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on March 08, 2007, 02:07:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I especially like games that you die because poor level designs and crappy controls that make it more difficult than it should. I'm beginning to wonder if some of the Sonic supporters who praise it for its so called "challenge" would be thrilled to death if a company (maybe even Nintendo) created a game where you have to battle hundreds enemies at once, with gimped controls, horrible framerate, 1 life (No continues), and obstacles scattered every couple of inches that can give you instant death. That would be hard wouldn't it? And I'm getting the impression if a game is "hard" regardless of WHY it is hard, is a great game. Who cares about game design, controls, innovation, presentation, it should be HARD above all else because that equals great.
That sounds like NetHack. A lot of people love it. I've never tried it, though.
Post by: Svevan on March 08, 2007, 05:43:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I interpret scores as
0-6: Not worth buying except as a joke present (heh, I remember the look on the face of a friend when I handed him Britney's Dance Beat as a birthday present, of course I gave him a real present after he was over the shock).
7: Somewhat good, maybe worth it in the bargain bin but don't expect it to be fun all the time.
8: Good. Should be worth buying, at full price if it's a genre you're very interested in, in the bargain bin if it's not as interesting to you. The game will be mostly fun with only few unfun spots.
9: Great. Worth retail price. Fun throughout.
10: A lengthy way of saying 9.
Two digit ratings are rounded to the lower value (i.e. 8*% is read as 8)
Well KDR, that's not the way we score, as shown in our Reviews Policy section. If most people agree with you, it's no surprise that NWR is "not trustworthy" anymore because there's a disconnect between our scoring system and the public's perception. We're just tired of all games being rated somewhere between 4.5 (terrible) and 8.5 (pretty good). 4.5 should mean bad, but not terrible, and 8.5 should mean a lot more than "pretty good."
Post by: vudu on March 08, 2007, 06:10:25 AM
QuoteSo you feel it's okay to change the universally agreed upon convention?
Originally posted by: Svevan
If most people agree with you, it's no surprise that NWR is "not trustworthy" anymore because there's a disconnect between our scoring system and the public's perception.
Why don't you just change definitions to words while you're at it? I've decided that the word dumb should mean "a person who is a fair and unbiased reviewer". Svevan, you're dumb.
While I can see what you're trying to do, in all honesty NWR doesn't have enough swing to change the standard. If you go and try to anyway it confuses consumers.
Post by: Arbok on March 08, 2007, 06:27:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Svevan
We're just tired of all games being rated somewhere between 4.5 (terrible) and 8.5 (pretty good). 4.5 should mean bad, but not terrible, and 8.5 should mean a lot more than "pretty good."
The problem is that people are conditioned to assume 45/100 is failing, and 70/100 is fair.
Speaking about a incident from my site, as we have a similar stance that all number ranges should be filled, I was invited to attend the world premiere of Godzilla: Final Wars. Following the event, I published a review of the film with a 5/10 rating. Although disappointed, my stance was that it was a middle of the road feature that some would enjoy and some would not, a prediction which has played out in the years past. However, it became quite controversial as many assumed I was giving it a failing grade instead.
Our solution was to change the rating structure away from the 10 point scale, which, although limiting choices for numerical grading, did allow the more even distribution of movies to scores to be accepted.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 08, 2007, 07:00:59 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix I especially like games that you die because poor level designs and crappy controls that make it more difficult than it should.
I don't like those games, but I don't think SR was one of those games. If I died in the game, it was my FAULT: I didn't see where the spring was positioned or I jump cancelled and missed the platform.
Why? It's not because of POOR LEVEL DESIGN, it's because I f*cked up. And I know that because the NEXT time I go through, I jump cancel at the RIGHT time, hit the platform, jump again, air-dash, cancel, repeat.
It's a rhythm which I admit was hard to get down, but once you actually DO get it down pat, people watching you play it are impressed because it looks really complicated, and it is until you've mastered it.
I played through one of the levels the other day and I made it look GOOD: I flew through it, nailing jumps, jump cancels, homing attacks, etc. with perfect timing to maximize my speed through the level.
This illustrates two things for me:
1. The control may be difficult to grasp, but it's not beyond the mastery of a skilled player.
2. Levels are filled with obstacles and opportunities for Sonic to die intentionally, but the fact that he starts only a few feet back from where you die is evidence that Sega made it easy to try the same area again and again.
Did you know that the 360/PS3 Sonic has lives and, if you lose all of them, you start at the beginning of what might be a VERY long level? SR spared us from that hell, and given the circumstances, I don't think it's wrong to ask the player to master a particular stretch of level before being able to pass it.
I'd much rather have challenging sections which are difficult to master instead of one long "hold forward and watch the level go by" run through a level like the original SA games.
Post by: KDR_11k on March 08, 2007, 07:44:07 AM
Perhaps if you don't want the implications numbers carry you could use a deviation from zero system where zero is the par and the higher something is above zero the better it is with anything below 0 being sub-par.
Post by: Koekoenutt on March 08, 2007, 07:52:53 AM
I don't mean to be a "Whiner", but you seem to totally ignore anything bad about the game at all. This isn't a 9-10 rating game, and you act like there isn't any downfall to the game at all. I mean, The controls were decent and in tacked enough for me to complete most of the game after beating it. They did their job as they were supposed to, and could have been way worse. I agree with this, but I also think the controls could have been way better. You're only arguement to this is you have to get used to it and later in the game it makes it easier, but even then.. it's still easy to accidently do something you don't want to with how the scheme is, and I think that is flawed. Also, Not EVERY level starts you only a few feet back at the beginning of the section. Only levels that are REALLY long, like the first mission of the worlds.. or missions that you need to and do the levels in sections. Granted this is most of the levels, but it's still a problem on some.
I call out on poor level design, because I think the levels could have flown together a lot more. I have said that some worlds are done with such greatness, and really shine through out the game. I expect to die, and I expect to have hard challenges to get passed.. but this game does have a lot of missions and a good amount of content to play through. I think a good example of a hard challenging design, was any Water Temple in a Zelda game. A lot of people had problems with it, and it was challenging. SOME missions that you had to beat in Sonic to progress through did not have this type of thought put into them. A good amount of content in Sonic could have been brought out better, and the game does have it's problems. To act like the game doesn't have any problems at all, besides the player playing it and their skills, is beyond me.
Post by: Ceric on March 08, 2007, 07:53:13 AM
A: >90%
B: 80-89
C: 70-79
D: 60- 69
F: <60
or (If you went to grade school where I did)
A: >93%
B: 85-92
C: 78-84
D: 71-77
F: <71
Also for a job right out of college they are looking for a 3.0 or better. So you must be "above average" to be considered. Just how society seems to gear things.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 08, 2007, 08:39:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Koekoenutt Smash Brother, I want to know really though, have you ever died in the game becuase you slipped up the controls in anyway?
Define "slipped up". Like I said earlier, I've screwed up and died in the game plenty of times, but then I came through at a later time and smoked that part of the level. That says to me that it was not the level's fault but my own inexperience.
Quote
Have you ever died becuase you were trying to go backwards and all sonic would do is something other than move backwards?
I'm sure I have, but screw-ups in general happened less after I had ample time with the game to learn the controls. After I learned exactly what angle I had to hold the Wiimote at to make Sonic walk backwards, it didn't happen anymore.
Quote
Have you ever died because you did a complete stop and the controls made you fling left or right suddenly accidently?
Honestly, no. I hit the brake button or I jump and hold down the jump cancel and you immediately perform a dead stop. It took me a while to get used to using the brake button, but once I got used to it, it worked a lot better for me, especially holding brake, then holding jump and Sonic will immediately begin charging his jump where he's standing. THAT came in handy MANY times.
Quote
Have you ever died from the controls not picking up the forward flick and attacking the enemy on time, or having the controls accidently flick forward?
Not really. I've made Sonic perform the forward dash because I was too jumpy at some points, but again, that's my fault: if I just don't make any sudden forward movements, I don't have an issue with it.
Quote
Have you ever had to go back to a level you should have been able to pass, but held it off for another 10 levels for upgrades, when it's from the second or third world and your on one of the last. There is not ONE mission or level in the game that frustrated you to no end?
I did that with one of the "Head to Head" levels, but because I knew it would be easier when I had more speed upgrades. Those levels tend to become REAL easy once you have some decent speed.
Also, I should note that I NEVER shut off Sonic's speed at any point in the game, even levels that would have benefitted from it. These games are supposed to be about barreling full speed ahead and that's what I did when and where ever possible.
You could say that the controls could be a bit tighter, sure, but I scratch my head after reading about the problems people have had with it. I do think the controls for switching rails was a bit weird, but I recently got that down pat as well: there's an exact angle with the Wiimote you need to stop at in order to perfect leap from one rail to the other.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 08, 2007, 08:47:44 AM
BTW not sure comparing the game to the PS3 and Xbox 360 verisons is fair (though I'm sure you could get "used" to the game and its controls), because that Sonic iteration is atrocius in not only controls but everything else, at least SR does some things competently.
Post by: SixthAngel on March 08, 2007, 09:17:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I really hate the logic that you can "learn" the controls, there are 2 different types of controls. Challenging control schemes and broken control schemes, both of which you can adjust to with time, but the point is that a game that is focused more on break neck speed (which Sonic SR fails at in alot of its missions) should have tight controls, not ones you have learn goofy angles you need to hold controller in order to get it to do what you want. Sonic SR, like I've repeated over and over, is a great example of poor innovation, it tacks on tilt controls which is bad enough, but top it off by making them floaty and unnatural feeling which take forever to adjust, when it could have used the nunchuck and utilized the Wiimote in some unique way.
BTW not sure comparing the game to the PS3 and Xbox 360 verisons is fair (though I'm sure you could get "used" to the game and its controls), because that Sonic iteration is atrocius in not only controls but everything else, at least SR does some things competently.
Actually broken control schemes can't be adjusted to over time. Broken means it doesn't work and adjustment won't help. Smash has had no problem adjusting so the control scheme would be challenging. What do you expect from an entirely new control scheme with entirely new inputs? You haven't played twelve games that use the same controls yet so it will take a little time to get used to.
Post by: Koekoenutt on March 08, 2007, 09:19:26 AM
The sliding on rails was annoying and weird to get the hang of, but I found that to be less of a problem and annoyance than other things. The breaking wasn't the issue for me, it's when you start back up and sometimes I found it to quickly jolt to the left or right, even though sonic is moving slowly forward. It's not until after you let go of the brake, that I found it real easy to move to the left and right, and yet you move so slow forward. It seemed out of place and broken. I admit that it has helped me move around something when I stoppped right before it, but it's the same loose controls that made it able to accidently bump into something when it was completely needed.
I never turned off Sonic's speed abilities either. I always kept them as fast as I could. I would take off quick grinding sometimes or even quick air, and I never really found his speed to be an issue. His speed is totally controllable if you know how to slide and brake right. I liked to use the short jump to gain acceleration, but the short jumped to me seemed broken even. A lot of times you really need to slow yourself down, and slide to attack an enemy. Sure there are ways to get around it, and things you can do to adjust to it, but a lot of times the controls felt clunky and broken. Anyone can "learn" controls, no matter how horrible they are.
The game needs precision like no other game, and the controls do not fall into being precise. You can grow used to it, memorize the level and obsticales, go through a section knowing exactly what you need to do over and over just to get the hang of it.. but in my opinion, doesn't make the controls better afterwards. The controls are clunky, and just because you force yourself to get used to it, doesn't make it perfect. They seemed slapped on, just to use the WiiMote's technology over finding a good rythme and a comfortable level of controls. I think a good example is how people use the Gamecube controllers for VC titles. They suck for the most part and are always put together in a horrible way compared to the classic controller. You can get used to the buttons easily, but the button mapping could have been much better.
I think a big problem is jumping backwards too. I ended up having to run backwards instead of jumping back, which is an ability you gain as you level and should be utilized better in the game, and just so clunky feeling to do that move. Once you got Sonic to move backwards, it was fine.. but to get him to stop dead on and start it right away, was kind of tricky and could have been layed out way better.
When I mean slip up, It's easy to hit jump cancel and slide button when you meant to hit the brake button. It's easy to attack an enemy when you meant to slide forward while jumping, or vice versa. It's really easy to slip up on the rails and not do what you really want him to do, unless you want to take it real slow. When you're shooting for a gold or silver, it's way to easy to slip the controls and timing up, and it's even harder to recover. I'm not asking for it to be dumb-downed or anything like that, I mean.. When I play FPS on my computer, I play them on Hard right off the box, as with any game practically that gives you a difficulty setting. I like a challenge, but learning such loose and broken controls for such a precise, intense game.. that put things in the game just to piss you off to make it hard, instead of creatively making it a challenge.. I find to be a lot different.
If you want an example of it.. Think of how they just pop a few enemies in front of you or drop a pillar at the last second. You really think this was in the best interests? Don't you think a good level design could have made it where you could take a higher road, which is harder to get to and you need to do a few things first like jump off 3 well placed enemies, so you could easy fly passed that part and not deal with it. I think so, because some of the missions/worlds do that in Sonic, and it really works out well. Some worlds/missions are thought out brillantly, and then you run into those that just make things pop out so you die and have to memorize that part. It's not about reflexes, it's about dying at that part first so you know it's coming next time. So you can hold the jump and slide, and actually clear the part before it even shows up. I found way to many levels doing things like this, and wish they would have kept the level design consistant and not choppy. When I mean choppy, I mean not throwing in a level that took you 10 minutes to create just to make the game longer. Collect Zero Coins? Great, Lets take the level you played 2 rounds ago, make it exactly the samething, but lets just add a bunch of coins at the very end to make it different and a challenge. Things like that piss me off.
Post by: Arbok on March 08, 2007, 09:25:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
...there are 2 different types of controls. Challenging control schemes and broken control schemes, both of which you can adjust to with time...
Under which of the two would the original Mario Bros. fall under?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 08, 2007, 09:31:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: ArbokQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
...there are 2 different types of controls. Challenging control schemes and broken control schemes, both of which you can adjust to with time...
Under which of the two would the original Mario Bros. fall under?
Personally I feel SMB would fall more in broken because of the terrible "slide", but at least the vast majority of the game was designed around it. Another game that comes to mind is the Tomb Raider series, the controls are terrible and quite broken since they are overly floaty, yet you still can master them if you play alot. More complex control schemes seem to be in some sports games (Tony Hawk maybe?) or even SSX Blur but I am just getting that from the reviews. Sonic and the SR does not match the floaty controls well, it is about speed and prescision, yet the controls don't seem to be designed around that.
Post by: Koekoenutt on March 08, 2007, 09:33:25 AM
Edit: I take that back, but I do think that the depth of controls have given developers more freedom. Sometimes I think developers are just lazy and over look controls for the most part. They think about them, and then they don't put in second thoughts about it later. I think it was easier back in the day to work a game around the controls you made, but now it seems people just don't really care as much as they used to. There are those companies that do however.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 08, 2007, 09:35:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Koekoenutt
I don't think using the original Mario Bros. controls really is to great of a debate, since they were very limited to what they could have used. Years later, developers have way more to work with and actually have to think more about controls than what a couple of buttons do and a d-pad.
I just used it because he asked what I would consider it, personally I think many of the old SNES and NES games felt broken control wise in how "floaty" things were which did not mesh well with the platforming.
Post by: Smoke39 on March 08, 2007, 02:17:37 PM
Post by: Karl Castaneda #2 on March 08, 2007, 02:47:50 PM
Post by: Bloodworth on March 08, 2007, 02:52:05 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on March 08, 2007, 03:01:51 PM
Bloodworth, give it a try. I think you may like it more than some people give it credit.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 08, 2007, 03:32:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
So wait, Super Mario Bros is broken? BROKEN?????
Bloodworth, give it a try. I think you may like it more than some people give it credit.
I said the controls are broken, not the game, but for the time they were some of the best around. Though when playing it again it is quite "floaty" which is a problem many 2D games had/have, luckily though the level design was built around it.
Post by: ShyGuy on March 08, 2007, 04:05:47 PM
WAIT. "Luckily" the level design was built around the broken controls? Miyamoto is a "lucky" man. Like Beethoven lucky. Michelangelo lucky.
Post by: wandering on March 08, 2007, 04:38:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ViewtifulGamer
...and this is why we should extend our Virtual Console scale to our regular reviews.
Yes, that is exactly what you should do. I'm serious. If you're going to break the mold (and that's what you're doing. Metacritic considers a review that gives a game a score lower than 75 'mixed' rather than 'favorable'), you should go all the way. Throw out the numbers altogether.
...actually, instead of "Recommended for Everyone/Fans/No one", I'd go with "buy"/"rent"/"avoid like the plague". I think that's ideal for games. "Great"/"Good"/"Okay"/"Poor"/"Worst thing since the black plague" also works well.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 08, 2007, 06:16:17 PM
The controls are NOT broken: they're new, different and something we as gamers aren't yet used to dealing with.
First of all, we're not used to making ultra-minute adjustments by tilting our hands ever so slightly.
Second, it took me years to develop my analogue stick thumb to the point where I could glide a crosshair back and forth across a screen. I think it's going to take time before we fully explore the finesse it will require in order to cause a character on screen to glide back and forth in small increments.
Consider all of the difficulty in moving the Wiimote: if you're not careful, you can move Sonic by accident, and I know because I've done this. This is something which will take some getting used to, but like I said, I managed to do it so I know the controls aren't "broken".
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 08, 2007, 06:24:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Regarding the control of the game, I think you're dealing with a completely new beast here and, as such, it's going to take a while to adjust to the new setup.
The controls are NOT broken: they're new, different and something we as gamers aren't yet used to dealing with.
First of all, we're not used to making ultra-minute adjustments by tilting our hands ever so slightly.
Second, it took me years to develop my analogue stick thumb to the point where I could glide a crosshair back and forth across a screen. I think it's going to take time before we fully explore the finesse it will require in order to cause a character on screen to glide back and forth in small increments.
Consider all of the difficulty in moving the Wiimote: if you're not careful, you can move Sonic by accident, and I know because I've done this. This is something which will take some getting used to, but like I said, I managed to do it so I know the controls aren't "broken".
You know, Excite Truck and Kirby Tilt N Tuble beg to differ about this being new. Sonic feels clunky, even Excite Truck feels polished control wise compared to it. I really hope Sonic is signs of things we must get used to either because they are perhaps some of the least innovative, tacked on, useless, controls we have seen on the Wii. The Wiimote can do much more than tilt n tumble controls which are a gimmick, yes I said it, a gimmick when it comes to moving your character.
Post by: Koekoenutt on March 08, 2007, 08:45:34 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 08, 2007, 08:53:35 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 09, 2007, 06:39:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I actually like Excite Truck as well, but really tilt controls are really a lazy way out of designing games around the unique features of the Wiimote. It is almost like the early days of the DS that people used the touch screen just so they utilize some of the new features, I get the same feeling with some Wii games, that they are slapping on tilt controls just to say "Hey we utilized the Wiimote. Look you can make sonic turn like a truck by tilting the controller! Yeah, we know people will eat this up. In fact since our other Sonic games have been so crappy even an overly simplistic, unpolished product like Secret Rings will get major praise because even in its clunky, disconnected state it is still better than other Sonic games! " Exact quote from Sega too.
It's ok.
I get bitter when I'm bad at things, too.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 09, 2007, 07:02:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I actually like Excite Truck as well, but really tilt controls are really a lazy way out of designing games around the unique features of the Wiimote. It is almost like the early days of the DS that people used the touch screen just so they utilize some of the new features, I get the same feeling with some Wii games, that they are slapping on tilt controls just to say "Hey we utilized the Wiimote. Look you can make sonic turn like a truck by tilting the controller! Yeah, we know people will eat this up. In fact since our other Sonic games have been so crappy even an overly simplistic, unpolished product like Secret Rings will get major praise because even in its clunky, disconnected state it is still better than other Sonic games! " Exact quote from Sega too.
It's ok.
I get bitter when I'm bad at things, too.
BURN!
I agree that Golden's a bit too bitter about this. Its OK if you didn't like the game but that doesn't mean that you should condemn games and developers in general.
Post by: Koekoenutt on March 09, 2007, 07:17:13 AM
Edit: Made some long rant that really doesn't do much for the thread, and can't figure out how to delete it, any help!?
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 09, 2007, 08:24:55 AM
At this point, she clearly won't be persuaded to think any differently about the game and I've already played the game and mastered the controls so I'm not exactly inclined to budge on my opinion, either.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 09, 2007, 08:51:06 AM
We already talked to each other about it and made sure that what we are saying to each other are jokes.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 09, 2007, 03:03:05 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 09, 2007, 03:15:16 PM
Post by: Mario on March 10, 2007, 02:06:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: wanderingQuote
Originally posted by: ViewtifulGamer
...and this is why we should extend our Virtual Console scale to our regular reviews.
Yes, that is exactly what you should do. I'm serious. If you're going to break the mold (and that's what you're doing. Metacritic considers a review that gives a game a score lower than 75 'mixed' rather than 'favorable'), you should go all the way. Throw out the numbers altogether.
...actually, instead of "Recommended for Everyone/Fans/No one", I'd go with "buy"/"rent"/"avoid like the plague". I think that's ideal for games. "Great"/"Good"/"Okay"/"Poor"/"Worst thing since the black plague" also works well.
I'd rather there was no kind of rating at all, forcing people to make up their own minds about whether or not the things mentioned in the review are good or bad. Of course that'd just probably make most people go to other sites for scores. Good for humanity, bad for NWR.
Post by: KDR_11k on March 10, 2007, 03:46:23 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 10, 2007, 06:10:16 AM
Best of all, the review can be in a paragraph or two:
Sonic: SR
Hardcore - 9
Plenty of skills to unlock, pages of Sonic art and medals to earn on every level for excellent performances. A hardcore gamer will have ample content to push for, including a difficult control scheme which is a challenge to truly master, but those who do will see an immense difference in their ability to scream through levels.
Normal - 7
The controls have a learning curve which goes beyond what you expect: even when you think you've played enough to learn the controls, you haven't.
Fan - 8
Sonic's back and he's fast as all hell, but the storyline doesn't encompass any of his normal adventures (some might consider that a good thing). In fact, it's an offshoot storyline. You can rest assured he won't be kissing anyone this time around, but if you like his attitude and "never-say-die" spirit, you'll enjoy seeing him in this game. Also, the voice acting is notably better than it has been in past Sonic games ("Oh no, our weapons are useless!").
Party - 7
It's no Mario Party, but and while the game boards are a bit bland, some of the minigames themselves are downright excellent. You'll enjoy laughing at your friends as they try to play a violin without sucking and tearing rugs out from underneath a genie while hoping one of your friends screws up and pulls the genie off onto them. Some of the minigames don't work very well, but the ones that do make up for it.
Non-Gamer - 2
Don't even bother. This is a gamer's game. You might find some fun with a few of the non-complex minigames, but the main game will be a lobotomy to those who don't game.
Post by: Ceric on March 10, 2007, 05:09:22 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 10, 2007, 05:36:48 PM
In fact if the argument Smash, along with others used about SR's controls being nothing more than something you get used to, then that means any game that can beaten should NEVER be critisized for poor controls, because it just takes "Practice". They can be like Sonic, imprecise, clunky, but you can still get "used" to them if you torture yourself long enough. Reminds me of Tomb Raider, it had some of the sloppiest controls around, but hey people got used to them, so does that mean they were good? Or maybe something like Blasto, that game could be beaten, but the controls sucked, though I guess if you were a "hardcore" gamer they would turn out great, right?
Post by: Khushrenada on March 10, 2007, 05:41:18 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 11, 2007, 03:24:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I do not buy the opinion that they developed the Wii controls to be "hardcore"
They didn't: they developed the controls to navigate Sonic through the levels and obstacles ahead of him. "Hardcore" is the fact that you can replay all of the levels for an attempt to acquire gold medals and all of the fire souls.
Quote
In fact if the argument Smash, along with others used about SR's controls being nothing more than something you get used to, then that means any game that can beaten should NEVER be critisized for poor controls, because it just takes "Practice". They can be like Sonic, imprecise, clunky, but you can still get "used" to them if you torture yourself long enough.
I probably spent, maybe 30-40 minutes before I had mastered the controls to the point where I was using Sonic to leap from platform to platform and get perfect timing so I was properly landing my jump cancels. When I say that the controls take longer to master, I'm comparing them to Excite Truck which ran you through the tutorial and then you pretty much knew how to do everything.
SR is a different animal in that you're constantly receiving upgrades which make you jump further, faster, higher, quicker, run faster, boost quicker, etc.
I've dealt with unusable controls and I've called them as such: these controls have a learning curve but are perfectly usable once you've learned them. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, trying to prove this point, but I honestly found these controls more than usable once I learned them. The fact that you did not has absolutely no bearing on my opinion of the game, just that I make sure to caution potential buyers that this game has more of a learning curve than any Wii title they've played before.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 11, 2007, 06:19:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I do not buy the opinion that they developed the Wii controls to be "hardcore"
They didn't: they developed the controls to navigate Sonic through the levels and obstacles ahead of him. "Hardcore" is the fact that you can replay all of the levels for an attempt to acquire gold medals and all of the fire souls.Quote
In fact if the argument Smash, along with others used about SR's controls being nothing more than something you get used to, then that means any game that can beaten should NEVER be critisized for poor controls, because it just takes "Practice". They can be like Sonic, imprecise, clunky, but you can still get "used" to them if you torture yourself long enough.
I probably spent, maybe 30-40 minutes before I had mastered the controls to the point where I was using Sonic to leap from platform to platform and get perfect timing so I was properly landing my jump cancels. When I say that the controls take longer to master, I'm comparing them to Excite Truck which ran you through the tutorial and then you pretty much knew how to do everything.
SR is a different animal in that you're constantly receiving upgrades which make you jump further, faster, higher, quicker, run faster, boost quicker, etc.
I've dealt with unusable controls and I've called them as such: these controls have a learning curve but are perfectly usable once you've learned them. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, trying to prove this point, but I honestly found these controls more than usable once I learned them. The fact that you did not has absolutely no bearing on my opinion of the game, just that I make sure to caution potential buyers that this game has more of a learning curve than any Wii title they've played before. This is because of poor design choices by Sega and the overrated nature of the game
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 12, 2007, 03:02:45 AM
Never did I say that the control was flawless, but it's fine for its purposes and is far better than the credit you give it.
Post by: odifiend on April 06, 2007, 03:14:26 AM
X was a disappointment, Heroes was terrible, and I couldn't bring myself to give the ridiculous sell-out Shadow the time of day. In the past on these very forums, I've had some very negative things to say about Sonic games on the GCN. Sonic and the Secret Rings is good though. I am having a lot of fun playing it. It definitely does have a learning curve, which is the only fair criticism I've read. But even that makes sense - Sonic is fast as hell and it takes a while to steer him effectively.I'm not done the game but it seems clear to me that the reaction this game got is unwarranted. I would even venture to say this game is at least a 7-8. I am a fan of the Sonic the Hedgehog series on the Genesis and this game definitely brings the series back to its roots. Sonic. Running. Fast. So Fast. Not trying to be a jerk, but if you don't like this game, it could be because you don't like the idea behind Sonic games, because Sonic Team (or whoever) delivered on the concept.
Post by: Ceric on April 06, 2007, 05:24:30 AM
Post by: Kairon on April 06, 2007, 10:53:37 AM
He thinks that all the little flaws and all the things that Sonic team can't get right... they don't ruin it, even though they show that the game could be a lot better. The concept is great though, which is what he's really giving it points for: when you get into the game and ignore the small things, "you realize that "hey, the game is really fun.""
I loved this thing he said especially:
Quote
It's more like a pleasant prom date with a complete stranger. Nice while it lasted, not something you'll be going back to.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: ShyGuy on April 06, 2007, 10:57:41 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 06, 2007, 10:58:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
Not trying to be a jerk, but if you don't like this game, it could be because you don't like the idea behind Sonic games, because Sonic Team (or whoever) delivered on the concept.
Too bad I really loved Sonic 3 right? The game has many legitimate complaints besides the difficulty, even if you look at the myriad of reviews out there some are brought up multiple times so there must be something to them. You loved the game? Great for you, but realize that some of us had legit complaints regarding the game, and mine never were about it being too hard (Maybe if you are talking about clunky controls at times, or tedious missions, I'd agree).
Post by: Kairon on April 06, 2007, 10:59:43 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 06, 2007, 11:00:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
In my opinion, the complaints simply don't ruin the game experience enough to ruin the fun. *shrug* Eternal Darkness had WAAAAAAAAYYY more problems than this game.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Well at least Eternal Darkness tried to be creative, and I actually WANTED to beat it.
Post by: Kairon on April 06, 2007, 11:11:42 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: ShyGuy on April 06, 2007, 11:12:59 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 06, 2007, 11:14:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Huh? Sonic not creative? I'm sorry, but did you SEE THE GIANT DINOSAURS?!?! That's creativity INCARNATE!!! WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAa!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Lol. Well I cannot respond to that, I think you got me there!
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 06, 2007, 03:27:00 PM
No.
Post by: odifiend on April 07, 2007, 03:40:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: odifiend
Not trying to be a jerk, but if you don't like this game, it could be because you don't like the idea behind Sonic games, because Sonic Team (or whoever) delivered on the concept.
Too bad I really loved Sonic 3 right? The game has many legitimate complaints besides the difficulty, even if you look at the myriad of reviews out there some are brought up multiple times so there must be something to them. You loved the game? Great for you, but realize that some of us had legit complaints regarding the game, and mine never were about it being too hard (Maybe if you are talking about clunky controls at times, or tedious missions, I'd agree).
You loved Sonic 3? Wow. I loved it, too but you do realize that one changed the series focus from speed. In past Sonic games, you got Choas emeralds 'on the way' through speeding through a level. Sonic 3 became about finding those big rings for emeralds which slowed down the pace of most players who didn't know exactly where they were. I'm sorry but loving Sonic 3 does not prove you love the speed element of Sonic.
NWR rated this game as a 5. To give you some perspective, Drake and Josh for the GBA pulled a 4.5 the other day. Wii Play which did have a horrible control problem and no depth ranged from a 4.5 to 6. Spongebob Wii got a 4.5. I do realize that people have differing opinions, in fact I'm captilizing on it right here by offering my opinion - but a 5 for this game, are you serious? I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's viewpoint and it is not my job to talk you into thinking you made a good purchase or whatever, but I stand by my statement that the reaction (and score) SSR got was unwarranted. Haters, your opinion is noted and should be considered, but I just wanted to say I based my opinion on popular opinion and was pleasantly surprised with Sonic and the Secret Rings despite what that opinion said. It feels like a real Sonic after a very long absence on consoles.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 07, 2007, 12:31:29 PM
Post by: odifiend on April 07, 2007, 02:11:08 PM
Even missions where you have to make laps are about speed. There is no "about facing" Sonic, so you are kidding yourself if you think it is not about speed. It is by design and by perspective. I never said the set up was the same as the classic games, but the sense of speed you get from the game is what Sonic is about. If you can't anticipate and avoid obstacles quickly you aren't going to like any true Sonic game. Secret Rings is fast to the point where it is unforgiving - whether that means death or trying to figure out how to make Sonic travel in reverse.
The strictness and the challenge do not make Secret Rings a bad game. The developer seems to expect the player to have near perfect execution on run throughs while Sonic is running around 80+ mph. Some of the complaints mentioned have been completely inherent to Sonic, the concept. Not having enough time to charge jumps, having to backtrack because an item was missed, etc, etc... The controls are not perfect (I hope there is an upgrade for jumping of rails because I hate doing it) but they are not that bad. You are just controlling the fastest thing alive. Frustration is going to come easier.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 07, 2007, 02:35:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
Two words. Laser Hockey. Wii Play and polished controls don't belong in the same sentence...
Even missions where you have to make laps are about speed. There is no "about facing" Sonic, so you are kidding yourself if you think it is not about speed. It is by design and by perspective. I never said the set up was the same as the classic games, but the sense of speed you get from the game is what Sonic is about. If you can't anticipate and avoid obstacles quickly you aren't going to like any true Sonic game. Secret Rings is fast to the point where it is unforgiving - whether that means death or trying to figure out how to make Sonic travel in reverse.
The strictness and the challenge do not make Secret Rings a bad game. The developer seems to expect the player to have near perfect execution on run throughs while Sonic is running around 80+ mph. Some of the complaints mentioned have been completely inherent to Sonic, the concept. Not having enough time to charge jumps, having to backtrack because an item was missed, etc, etc... The controls are not perfect (I hope there is an upgrade for jumping of rails because I hate doing it) but they are not that bad. You are just controlling the fastest thing alive. Frustration is going to come easier.
Laser hockey is your best example of Wii play controls being unpolished? You are perhaps the only individual that I've heard comment that Wii Play has flawed controls, because personally I (among others) found them to be tight and yes, intuitive though the games themselves lack depth. I'm not kidding myself either when I see Secret Rings is not just about speed, yes there are some sections that are, but there are others that slow you down to a crawl when you are trying to collect things. Those particular missions weren't fun, and definately were not creative.
The only real segments I enjoyed in Sonic and the Secret Rings was what the whole game should of been, getting from point A to point B, like the first challenge in every world, which IS about speed (unless of course you don't time your jump perfectly and have to back up Sonic with its sloppy reverse mechanics). It is sad when Sonic Adventure had more variety in the Sonic based stages than Secret Rings 8 worlds, mixed with a myriad of challenges ranging from tedious to ok. I would have been thrilled with Sonic and the SR if it DID do what other Sonic games did, and that was focusing on speed and crazy level design, which do not force you to collect rings, or complete challenges to "unlock" the next string of Sonic mini-games with one real world to speed through as your first challenge.
Post by: Karl Castaneda #2 on April 07, 2007, 03:34:21 PM
Post by: Kairon on April 07, 2007, 03:36:08 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 07, 2007, 03:58:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
When I was in first grade, Sonic stole my lunch money and pushed my face into the mud.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Did he have to back up to do so? Or was he running full speed forward?
Post by: Kairon on April 07, 2007, 04:19:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
When I was in first grade, Sonic stole my lunch money and pushed my face into the mud.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Did he have to back up to do so? Or was he running full speed forward?
He was walking around a full 3D environment that looked a lot like some sterile Japanese neo city stereotype.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on April 07, 2007, 10:33:19 PM
Post by: Kairon on April 07, 2007, 11:58:16 PM
Sooo... what about Bust-A-Move Bash guys? 8-player cooperative mode anyone???
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 08, 2007, 06:26:21 PM
