Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 10, 2007, 06:26:35 AM
This is what he had to say (from Go Nintendo):
"The following comment is from Christian Svensson, Sr. Director of Strategic Planning & Research at Capcom…
We have more titles coming to Wii than what’s been announced HOWEVER, I must admit, many of them (outside of RE) are not mature titles despite the fact that’s an area Capcom is known for.
By and large, we don’t see the Wii being home to an sizble mature playerbase outside of some of the early adopters. We see it as being very, very broad with a family focus (especially in Japan). If there is a “core player base” on Wii, within two years, it will be largely a younger player (far younger than 360 or PS3).
You’ll see more announcements later this year on this front."
It's good to know that we are getting some games, but it sucks that Capcom is still with the "Nintendo's for families" mentality.
Looks like Reggie needs to do some regginating at Capcom...
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 10, 2007, 07:05:20 AM
I thought it was known that the NEW audience is an older and more mature audience. *The Wii is the new PS2 and next-gen gamers will bow down to the NEW gen that will eventually take a commanding lead*. If we don't receive the next DMC, Onimusha or whatever the next/other "mature" franchise(s) Capcom has its more their loss than ours. But as long as they bring on the next Street Fighter, Megaman, Viewtiful Joe, etc etc. I think we'll all be fine.
Capcom will come around at some point, but they just don't know the huge opportunity they have to help shape the audience that will be on the Wii. There will always appear to be no "mature" gamers on the Wii if developers don't release "mature" games on the Wii for "mature" Wii gamers to buy. classic catch-22(chicken or the egg?)
*this whole sentence has yet to be proven true and was only thrown in just for the hell of it.
Post by: ShyGuy on February 10, 2007, 07:12:15 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 10, 2007, 07:15:41 AM
Post by: utarefsoN on February 10, 2007, 07:49:00 AM
Post by: Ceric on February 10, 2007, 08:10:54 AM
By there definition it would seem that Narrow=Mature. Well why don't they make an AO game for the V.Smile.
Why won't developers see that the family consists of more then just pre-teen children. Why won't the world in general see that the world is not just kids... arg...
Post by: TrueNerd on February 10, 2007, 08:47:23 AM
Post by: Kairon on February 10, 2007, 08:57:40 AM
So, it's not their fault, it's only natural that since so much of their traditional stuff is tied to the X360, the Wii gets other things. Like hopefully Megaman.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 10, 2007, 09:05:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Capcom isn't dumb guys: their moves make sense. All of their traditional hardcore game energies are already devoted to the XBox 360 (ie. Dead Rising, Lost Planet, etc.) and if they've already made commitments there, they're not as likely to downshift for the Wii. They could downport stuff, but that'd be quite a bit of hassle.
So, it's not their fault, it's only natural that since so much of their traditional stuff is tied to the X360, the Wii gets other things. Like hopefully Megaman.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Actually I think you could argue it is their fault, if Wii becomes a breakout hit, then Capcom will look absolutely stupid for focusing their "traditional hardcore" energies on the Xbox 360 instead of the Wii.
Post by: Kairon on February 10, 2007, 09:12:52 AM
That said, Capcom should know that Megaman is NOT a mature franchise, but one for lapsed gamers and families the world over. And they should know that Street Fighter and other Capcom-esuqe fighting games should also get ported to the Wii due to their 2D nature and the Wiis install base making it a safe bet for profitability.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 10, 2007, 09:19:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Capcom isn't dumb
EXCEPT CAPCOM STILL HATEZ TEH $$$!!!!!11!!
Post by: WuTangTurtle on February 10, 2007, 09:31:57 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 10, 2007, 09:32:21 AM
Post by: The Omen on February 10, 2007, 10:25:19 AM
All of this bluster won't mean a hill of beans if by this time next year the Wii is neck and neck with the 360.
Post by: The Omen on February 10, 2007, 10:29:48 AM
Please don't read more into my comments above than I've written.
I think you're going to see some amazing Wii titles from Capcom. I just suspect that they won't all be blood and guts and they will likely be much more broadly focused. That also doesn't mean, our games in the Will will be "kiddie". Those are two very different extremes. We're likely to be somewhere in the middle with new products. Inafune-san already mentioned in some Japanese coverage that we have a new IP on the Wii that will be shown "soon". Internally, we're very excited about its prospects for success (and tapping into that broad market).
Remember:
Mature =| broadly appealing =| kiddie.
Edit: On another note, I've obviously seen all of the requests for Okami on Wii in this thread an others. I too think it would be great (both from a gameplay and a fit on the platform) but unfortunately, we've got no news on that front. I just wanted to at least let people know we're certainly aware of the demand.
I say get on those forums and tell him what you want. Can't hurt.
Post by: Ceric on February 10, 2007, 10:55:33 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 10, 2007, 11:10:36 AM
QuoteThat would be alot easier if someone had provided a link to the initial thread
Originally posted by: The Omen
Sven just responded in the initial thread:
I say get on those forums and tell him what you want. Can't hurt.
Post by: King of Twitch on February 10, 2007, 11:32:47 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 10, 2007, 11:33:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: BlackNMild2k1QuoteThat would be alot easier if someone had provided a link to the initial thread
Originally posted by: The Omen
Sven just responded in the initial thread:
I say get on those forums and tell him what you want. Can't hurt.
...
...
...
...Oh, you mean me?
Clicky!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 10, 2007, 11:58:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: TASQuoteWatch what you say there.
Originally posted by: Sven
6-10 males was the sweet spot,
Post by: Pittbboi on February 10, 2007, 12:02:39 PM
The number of Wiis purchased is growing--and growing fast. Nintendo's strategy to appeal to non-gamers with their console is definitely working, but I'm starting to feel that this strategy is something that is going to bite them on the ass...at least partially.
I was at a party last night that was made up up of mostly grad students. A lot of them didn't know much about video games. Someone brought up Wii Sports, and the reaction was amazing. I sat and listened to 5 people who admitted they didn't play video games each talk about how awesome Wii Sports is and how they would buy a Wii to play it. It was the first time I really believed in Nintendo's strategy.
However, that didn't last very long.
As the conversation went on, however, it became more and more apparent that NONE of the five people knew anything about other games for the Wii outside of Wii Sports, nor did they really seem to care. Someone mentioned Warioware, and the only response it got was someone saying it looked weird. Nobody knew what Wii Play or Wii Music was, and they weren't really interested when I described them. There was basically a room full of non-gamers that wanted to buy a Wii simply for Wii Sports.
This setup is good for Nintendo. Their initial Wii push and focus on WiiSports has hit their blue ocean they were going for. There's still quite a demand for the system. So far the tie in ratio with other games like Zelda is pretty good, too. But I think it's still fairly safe to say that the majority of the systems purchased at this point have still gone to games with the determination and know-how to snatch a console off the shelves the second it comes out. However, I have always feared, and it seems Capcom is also fearing, that when non-gamers REALLY start to flex their muscles on the console, that there'll be a lot of numbers, yes, but a lot of shallow numbers made of people who really aren't intending to purchase much anything else outside of what comes with the console.
You can get a non-gamer to play a game if you do just enough to make it appeal to them. But it takes more than a game to turn a non-gamer into a gamer. I think Capcom, and maybe a few other developers, are still unsure of the Wii's numbers because, though the number is growing at a surprising rate, they really aren't sure of who makes up those numbers. Capcom is right in that Nintendo is going for a broad audience, and that broad audience isn't unnecessarily gamers, but kids and grandparents. People who are interested in the console and the game it comes with, but still not interested in purchasing the harcore, mature games true gamers want. And if this demographic becomes dominant on the Wii, then to a lot of developers it won't matter if the Wii outsells the 360: The 360 (and maybe even the PS3) will still look more appealing, if it looks like there are more people wanting to buy their mature titles on those systems than on the Wii.
I think Nintendo's done enough to attract the non-gamer at this point. The console is a smash hit with them, and when Nintendo finally catches up with the demand, I think the Wii is going to catch up to the 360 a lot sooner than Nintendo expects, and definitely leave PS3 in the dust. But it's the GAMERS that the system is still struggling to appeal to. Most Nintendo fans are on board, sure. But a lot of gamers who might not be Nintendo faithful are still not swayed by the Wii's graphics, the wishy-washy controller (that no third party has yet to push into the territory of unparalleled awesome), and lack of mature and committed third party support (Dewy REALLY doesn't count). Nintendo has still got a lot to do if it wants to sway THOSE gamers, and they're going to need those gamers if they want third parties to seriously bring over their mature, blockbuster titles.
Nintendo needs to get it in gear and seriously kiss major developer butt and convince them that the Wii truly is for EVERYONE, and not just "everyone else". It won't matter how much the Wii sells if it looks like most of those Wii only only want titles like Wii Sports. Up to this point Nintendo really pushed and catered to the non-gamer. Now they need to shift their focus if they want Nintendo to really be taken seriously by developers and get those tried and true hits that are, so far, going to other players.
(ohhh, and I really didn't mean to write that much)
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 10, 2007, 12:26:03 PM
Brain Age and Nintendogs didn't come with the DS, yet many people must have seen it played then went out to buy both it and a DS at some point.
I have faith that the same will happen with the Wii.
Post by: Mario on February 10, 2007, 12:44:53 PM
Post by: Mikintosh on February 10, 2007, 01:04:53 PM
Post by: nitsu niflheim on February 10, 2007, 01:09:05 PM
Post by: jasonditz on February 10, 2007, 01:19:08 PM
Post by: The Omen on February 10, 2007, 01:19:18 PM
Quote
As the conversation went on, however, it became more and more apparent that NONE of the five people knew anything about other games for the Wii outside of Wii Sports, nor did they really seem to care. Someone mentioned Warioware, and the only response it got was someone saying it looked weird. Nobody knew what Wii Play or Wii Music was, and they weren't really interested when I described them. There was basically a room full of non-gamers that wanted to buy a Wii simply for Wii Sports.
Well, why would they know anything about Wii Music and the like? They were just introduced to the Wii. I think the plan is get 'em hooked then push the hard stuff.
For example, leading up to the Wii release, all of my friends either made fun of my intent to buy the Wii or were vocal supporters of the PS3. Last night was the first time we hung at my house since I bought the Wii. The first thing out of my friends mouth was "We going to play the Wii tonight or what?" My other buddy joined in, and soon enough they were in awe of the Wii menu with all of my VC channels. Then we got to Bowling, and we played for 2 hours. They were loving it. My one buddy played a full 18 holes of golf as we sat and drank a few beers. The last conversation of the night was my him asking me how much the Wii cost, and his guess was $300. When I informed him of the price, and the fact that he would get Wii Sports with it, his eyes lit up. I personally expect them both to buy it now.
And when they buy it, they will be introduced to other games, games they might have purchased for their PS2 prior to last night. And that's where Capcom doesn't get it. The Wii market is growing rapidly, and now would be the time to announce something daring, or hell, even a port of Dead Rising. It will sell. They just don't seem to understand M titles have to be released in order to have a chance to succeed financially. They seem to think it's more cost effective to ship certain games to certain platforms. In my opinion, it's always better to reach the most consumers with all of your products. Not for Capcom, I guess.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on February 10, 2007, 03:45:41 PM
Supporting Saturn more than PlayStation (until they were forced not to when it died a horrible death), not supporting Nintendo 64, throwing massive support at the crappy Dreamcast, choosing PSP over DS, remaking Resident Evil over and over even though nobody wants them, putting Dino Crisis 3 on Xbox instead of PlayStation 2. I trust whatever these wise sages have to say. They're even better than Sonic Team and Acclaim.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 10, 2007, 03:59:20 PM
The irony I see here is that Sonic Team might be pulling Sonic from the toilet with SR while Capcom is intent upon filling the bowl with their franchises.
Why the HELL are they supporting the 360? The Wii ALREADY has 60% of the Japanese next gen market! SIXTY FRIGGIN' PERCENT, FOR F*CK'S SAKE!!!!!!111!!!! The 360 has a piddly 350,000 units sold. Even the goddamn PS3 has more than that and yet everyone agrees that it's a PoS failure in Japan.
Ah well. Maybe I'll buy the RE Wii game if it's any good. With the plethora of other games we're seeing, I'm not going to miss the others (not that I ever played the others to start with, mind you...).
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 10, 2007, 04:21:01 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 10, 2007, 04:27:53 PM
I'm pretty sure MS moneyhatted them somewhere along the line, or maybe Capcom just really is that dumb...
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 10, 2007, 04:28:00 PM
Quote
We see it as being very, very broad with a family focus (especially in Japan).
Which is absolutely ridiculous considering how much Xbox 360 is struggling in Japan.
Post by: jasonditz on February 10, 2007, 04:35:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
True, and I can see that's the market they're aiming for, but once the Wii passes the 360 in the US (and it will), then Capcom will be pledging all of their mature franchises for a console which is second in the US and UK and dead last in Japan. Not a good recipe for decent sales...
Is that really so different from when Capcom was commiting heavily to the Gamecube?
Their ineffectual marketing lends itself well to developing for second tier systems.
Post by: The Omen on February 10, 2007, 04:37:02 PM
Quote:
I hope that your suprise is the Mature title Dead Rising, because the melee combat in this game could work very well in combination with the wiimote. Yet, if the answer to the previous was "Yes, RE will be the only one as far as we are concerned at the moment" then this is just wishfull thinking.
Sven: Interesting idea. No comment other than that though.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 10, 2007, 04:39:52 PM
Post by: Adrock on February 10, 2007, 04:50:50 PM
Wii should have more support, but it doesn't. I really can't figure out why.
Post by: Kairon on February 10, 2007, 04:53:25 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 10, 2007, 05:19:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Adrock Wii should have more support, but it doesn't. I really can't figure out why.
That's the bottom line here.
Devs should be rushing to support the Wii but some of them are just far too timid for their own good.
I'd say they're afraid of developing on Nintendo consoles, but that totally ignores the DS...
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Screw Japan, US X360 sales is enough to support Capcom's mature game efforts. I don't see any stupidity on Capcom's part at all.
When the Wii passes the 360 in the US, Japan will probably have close to 5 million Wiis sold, making the Wii base around 15 million and rising while Capcom tries to carve up a piece of the 10 million 360 owners.
A year after that, I expect the Wii to have 20 million sold (or more) when the 360 will be lucky to reach 15 million.
When I question the wisdom of Capcom's decision, it's because they're not only snubbing their homeland but they're ignoring the larger user base.
It doesn't matter, though. Capcom will be downgrading their games for the Wii soon enough, just like they did for RE4 for the PS2.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 10, 2007, 06:26:33 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on February 10, 2007, 08:35:55 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 10, 2007, 08:39:39 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 10, 2007, 09:12:17 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 10, 2007, 11:16:38 PM
Post by: The Omen on February 11, 2007, 02:37:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Come to think about it, it'd be stupid to make lots of M-rated games for the Wii because most of the people that were (re)introduced to gaming through the controller probably don't want to play games with a lot of violence.
Why is that?
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 11, 2007, 02:55:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Come to think about it, it'd be stupid to make lots of M-rated games for the Wii because most of the people that were (re)introduced to gaming through the controller probably don't want to play games with a lot of violence.
Tell that to every teenager I've talked to who f*cking loves the Wii and adores violent games like Red Steel, CoD3 and Far Cry.
The Wii makes believers out of everyone who uses it, even if they're the type who uses gaming as a yardstick for personal maturity. I'm talking about the same teenagers who were quick to call the GC and Mario "ghey", and now they love the Wii, especially titles which glorify violence like Red Steel.
These kids will more than likely get their hands on Manhunt 2 at some point. Believe me when I say that the Wii is "cool" with the teenage crowd who had previously abandoned Nintendo as being for children.
Post by: MarioAllStar on February 11, 2007, 03:03:27 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 11, 2007, 03:11:33 AM
They'll all have Wiis before two years are up, once the other games they'll want are on the system. Watch.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2007, 03:28:39 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 11, 2007, 03:41:49 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
If the Wii appeals to lapsed and non-gamers it'll have a large part of its userbase not liking violent games.
But, like I said, teenagers are BUYING THE WII. The same teenagers who couldn't see anything redeeming on the GC are already buying Wiis and enjoying them.
The whole point of the Wii is that it appeals to EVERYONE: non, lapsed, hardcore...whatever. It doesn't make a difference because the Wii is a intended to be a console for anyone.
The possibilities of non-games using the Wiimote are incredible, but the possibilities for new hardcore genres are likewise amazing. There's a reason games like Manhunt are being brought to the Wii and why companies like EA and Activision are refocusing their lineups on the Wii.
Capcom just likes to be the odd one out. They did it with the GC while the PS2 held the much higher userbase (though they ported most of the games to the PS2 anyway), they're doing it with the PSP while the DS is dominating and it seems they also intend to do so with the Wii.
I guess they truly do employ the business strategy of developing for the underdog console in the hopes that their games will be more embraced by a smaller userbase than they would be in a larger userbase because there's less competition on the underdog console.
My guess is this strategy didn't work as well on the GC because of the Nintendo fan 1st party mentality which used to pervade their consoles (ie buying only 1st party titles).
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2007, 04:14:58 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 11, 2007, 04:54:51 AM
The current Wii tie-in ratio is around 5:1, meaning that either non-gamers buy more games than gamers do or that there are still a sh*tload of gamers buying Wiis.
Both Castlevania games sold well on the DS and yet the DS is largely regarded as a non-gamer system, and yet these are the epitome of "gamer" games. When the userbase is large enough, it just doesn't matter any more. When there's a big enough pie to go around, your game can still be a million seller even if it only appeals to 5% of the people who own the console, hence why so many developers chose to develop for the PS2 (and still are choosing to do so).
Granted, the Wii doesn't have those numbers yet, but I'm quite certain that it will in Japan alone, forget the fact that the US is likewise apesh*t over the thing.
I agree that E-T games have a higher potential marketshare because of their ratings, but M games are still being developed and as such it's not a question of which rating will sell better but a question of on which system the M games will sell the most copies. Once the Wii reaches 20 million, I'd put my money on the Wii.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2007, 06:10:03 AM
Why do you think I said ONLY non-gamers buy the Wii? I said a large number of them buy the Wii which means a large part of the userbase is non-gamers.
Both Castlevania games sold well on the DS and yet the DS is largely regarded as a non-gamer system, and yet these are the epitome of "gamer" games.
However they aren't exactly "mature" games either. They do have violence but it's so abstract that the average non/lapsed gamer wouldn't object. Castlevania is a pretty simple game concept at its core and not that hard to understand.
I agree that E-T games have a higher potential marketshare because of their ratings, but M games are still being developed and as such it's not a question of which rating will sell better but a question of on which system the M games will sell the most copies. Once the Wii reaches 20 million, I'd put my money on the Wii.
It'll be a while until the Wii is at 20 million and for now I'd rather aim E-T games at the Wii. It may not be a system only for kids but E-T is still a safe bet in any case.
Post by: thetransformerscollector on February 11, 2007, 06:11:00 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 11, 2007, 06:24:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k It'll be a while until the Wii is at 20 million and for now I'd rather aim E-T games at the Wii. It may not be a system only for kids but E-T is still a safe bet in any case.
But that's the same logic which killed the GC's chances at the mature market. There are a lot of gamers who prefer M rated games and they even constitute the majority of their library. By snubbing those gamers in the beginning of a console's life, it sets a precedent for the remainder of its life, one which the GC was NEVER able to shake.
Do you realize that Halo has outsold EVERY GAME ON THE GC despite carrying an M rating? You can't say M games have limited selling power when NO title on the GC outsold it (or outsold Halo 2, for that matter).
I say get the M games out there and get them out there in force. Want to kill the 360? Hit it where it COUNTS: the adult gamer market. Make sure there's no image disparity between the 360 and the Wii. Nintendo finally seems to understand that, in this market, image is EVERYTHING and by allowing the GC's image to go to sh*t, they let the GC go with it.
I understand M games aren't your prerogative, but that doesn't mean Nintendo should avoid trying to capture those sales as well.
Luckily, the prerogative of EA, Ubi, Midway and Rockstar is to release M or even AO games on the Wii and I wish them the utmost success in their efforts.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2007, 06:28:54 AM
As a third party it's hardly Capcom's job to fix that. If Nintendo wants those "mature" games they should ask themselves how much it's worth to them.
Do you realize that Halo has outsold EVERY GAME ON THE GC despite carrying an M rating?
Yes but I doubt that would have happened if Halo was on the GC.
I understand M games aren't your prerogative, but that doesn't mean Nintendo should avoid trying to capture those sales as well.
We're talking about Capcom, not Nintendo.
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2007, 06:41:07 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 11, 2007, 06:46:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k As a third party it's hardly Capcom's job to fix that. If Nintendo wants those "mature" games they should ask themselves how much it's worth to them.
Don't you remember the news stories about Reggie Regginating Rockstar? I think MH2 might be a direct result of that.
Quote
Yes but I doubt that would have happened if Halo was on the GC.
All the more reason to try and avoid a similar precedent for the Wii.
Let's be honest: the Wii has the family market in the bag anyway. It's the most non-gamer friendly console and it's also the cheapest by a LONG shot. The trouble area will be the T-M games where the target audience typically has a great deal more money to spend on gaming.
By your own logic, Nintendo should be trying harder for the hardcore segment since A) they're going to be the hardest to reach and B) they run the tie-in ratio up far more than non-gamers do.
The non-gamers are guaranteed and definitely help to expand the market, but if they TRULY want to be the console for "everyone" they have to bring the M games and/or encourage 3rd parties to do so, and like I said, they already have EA, Ubi, Midway and even Rockstar doing just that.
Quote
We're talking about Capcom, not Nintendo.
And I thought we agreed that Capcom has the business sense of a lemming.
I can't think of any better way to illustrate the practice of intentionally producing the most games on the LEAST popular consoles than to compare it to a rodent which happily leaps to its own demise.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2007, 07:01:16 AM
Capcom (or any company for that matter) saying that they would rather bring E rated games for the family to the Wii and leave the M rated adult content on the 360 or PS3 is making a huge error in userbase of the Wii.
We all know where Nintendos internal development focus is and thats why they leave it up to the 3rd parties to fill in those gaps*. But the 3rd parties, such as Capcom, have to step up and deliver that content if the want there to be a userbase for said content. They can't not release the M rated games and say "but there is no market for them", they have to create that market or give that market a reason to be where they are trying to go.
The reason why the GC hever really had any mature content audience was because only a handful of M rated games were released, and when they were they were either very poor (RE4 is the exception) or very piss poor ports from the earlier released PS2 verison. If I'm looking for mature content and the GC only has a handful of mature games while the PS2 has a truck load, I'm gonna go get a PS2 and probably buy all those games for my PS2 while I'm at it. The mature content audience was there, but the 3d parties just starved them for so long, eventually they had to go somewhere else to eat.
*Nintendo is trying to do something in the area of more mature with Distaster: DoC & Project HAMMER.
Sometimes you have to lead by example, even if the games don't turn out very well, you have to prove that the audience is there. Bring the games and the audience will come.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 11, 2007, 07:06:26 AM
Post by: zakkiel on February 11, 2007, 07:16:26 AM
QuoteThat's always true, yet somehow mature games manage to sell massive numbers.
Those teenagers would play a game that's aimed at everyone (which does not mean children here, something that doesn't involve a lot of violence but doesn't look like a cartoon either). Sure, they'd buy a "mature" game too but the rest of the users won't. Therefore a "mature" game would have a smaller potential userbase than a less violent game.
Post by: Artimus on February 11, 2007, 07:19:28 AM
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2007, 07:20:58 AM
If WE buy it, they will come.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 11, 2007, 07:31:02 AM
The fact that Nintendo is taking steps to avoid that same stigma with the Wii is just one more piece of evidence which truly shows that Nintendo has finally acquired a clue.
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2007, 07:34:45 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 11, 2007, 07:44:45 AM
Sonic Adventure 2 on the Cube only sold slightly less than the original SA did on the DC (2.42 mil to 2.33 mil) and Super Monkey Ball sold 1.35 million copies, not a bad day's work either.
I'll personally be renting all of these M games through gamefly and if I like 'em, I might wind up keeping a few.
I agree, though, that Nintendo gamers can be some of the biggest xenophobes when it comes to game choices.
Post by: denjet78 on February 11, 2007, 08:00:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
If WE buy it, they will come.
I don't like this argument at all. It skims over one really important question: Buy what exactly? Anything that 3rd parties are willing to throw at us? If we don't buy their shovelware then we're not worthy enough for anything that might actually be good?
Well developed titles that actually have some effort and thought put into them will sell. That has nothing to do with whether the title received and "M" or an "E" rating. The game has to be worthy of purchase first. If Umbrella Chronicles turns out to be Gun Survivor with Wiimote pointing is anyone going to buy it? If it fails though Capcom will use it as a yard stick to say that their games won't sell on Wii.
Is that true? Absolutely not. Only an honest try with a real quality game can show that. Are we going to get that honest and quality try with Umbrella Chronicles? I don't know yet, but I'm highly suspicious.
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2007, 08:36:00 AM
The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.
This sort of elitism is close-minded, counter-productive, poisonous, and is what's keeping us in the Nintendo Ghetto.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2007, 08:46:43 AM
I doubt they care, that market is going to exist on some console anyway. If the Wii doesn't get the right userbase, what's to stop them from making the game for the 360 then?
Post by: Ceric on February 11, 2007, 08:59:25 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2007, 09:02:02 AM
QuoteThats why Nintendo is also taking the initiative to make something geared more towards the "mature" community themselves. If people by M rated Nintendo games, then all the 3rd parties will know that "M" games do sell cause the audience is there. That way Capcom(& other 3rd parties) will know that if they have a "M" game they can put it on the Wii too.
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
But the 3rd parties, such as Capcom, have to step up and deliver that content if the want there to be a userbase for said content.
I doubt they care, that market is going to exist on some console anyway. If the Wii doesn't get the right userbase, what's to stop them from making the game for the 360 then?
Besides if Capcom were to solely stick to the 360 userbase, and for whatever reason it gets too saturated with too many of the same type of games, their bread might go stale and their butter will have somebody elses crumbs all over it. Thats why it would be good to branch out, and the sooner the better. Money and market share that could've been had but wasn't is money & marketshare that is lost.
edit: I feel like this response was better suited fo the "Capcom still hates money" thread in "Other Systems".
Post by: Pittbboi on February 11, 2007, 09:08:31 AM
Kairon, I don't think Nintendo gamers literally "pooh-pooh" these games. It's a defense mechanism. a mask to shield from the pain. All those games you mentioned moved the industry last gen in ways not even Nintendo's best managed to, and yet those are games that did not see the light of day on the Cube. As a Cube gamer, you had to learn to cope with the fact that, though you were going to be getting high quality Nintendo games, you were going to be missing out on the best most third parties had to offer. For a lot of gamers, the best way to cope with that loss was demonizing those games. You don't miss a game if you convince yourself that it MUST be crap. Conversely, you don't miss other games if you also convince yourself that Nintendo games are the only ones worth purchasing.
Nintendo fans calling those great games crap because they're not on Nintendo consoles is a bad image, to be sure, but it's also highly superficial. Trust me, if any of those games you mentioned were ever announced for the Wii the mass pooh-poohing would quickly turn into mass hysteria.
denjet78, I totally agree. A Nintendo first party game won't do it, no matter how good it is. 3rd parties will just write that off as Wii gamers only wanting Nintendo games. No, it's going to take Nintendo appealing to a major third party developer to make an epic game for the Wii and put other third parties to shame. Nintendo gamers are HUNGRY. Contrary to popular belief, we WANT those games, and we WILL buy them. If Nintendo can convince Square, or Konami, or any other major third party to take a chance and make just ONE big game for the Wii, it WILL get supported and it WILL sell big, and it'll make other third parties feel so stupid for thinking that we didn't want their games.
But, again, it's going to take Nintendo totally sucking up to developers, MS style. I just hope they're more willing to do that.
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2007, 10:03:50 AM
Nothing's more convincing than proven, achievable, numerated profits.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Pittbboi on February 11, 2007, 10:29:53 AM
It's a tight rope to walk. On one hand, I'm willing to do my part to see that the Wii gets support...but at the same time, I don't want to buy any game that'll encourage developers to believe that they can shovel us anything and we'll buy it. If Wii becomes that console, we're never see developers actually trying.
I want to buy Manhunt 2 for the Wii because I want to encourage more games like this for the console, even if it's really just a title that I would usually just rent for a week. But at the same time, I want all this PS2 porting to end. The Wii should NOT become associated with the PS2 UNLESS the Wii versions of these games are getting significant graphical and gameplay upgrades.
Post by: oohhboy on February 11, 2007, 11:09:36 AM
I just find that games on a Nintendo console are much "tighter", more polished.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 11, 2007, 11:15:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k If the Wii doesn't get the right userbase, what's to stop them from making the game for the 360 then?
That's just it: the Wii IS going to get the right userbase, and we know that because developers are already bringing mature franchises to the Wii, some of them the most controversial ever.
The Wii needs M titles in order to be established as a console fit for M titles, and it's getting those, meaning that Capcom is going to be shut out from a LOT of sales when the Wii reaches a strong userbase, especially one which compares to that of the PS2.
And to answer an advance question with a question, which console sold more M titles, the Xbox or the PS2?
Exactly.
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2007, 11:52:59 AM
Nothing forces third party developers and publishers to improve like competition on THEIR level. (i.e. Nintendo games blow 'em away anyways so there's no point, but similar third party shovelware....) You start at shovel level, and you work your way up. We're seeing Scar Face, Godfather, and Man Hunt all land on the Wii. If they want to sell, each game of this type will have to outdo the other.
In short, the best shovel port wins, raises the bar, and the cycle of competitive improvement repeats.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Mario on February 11, 2007, 12:24:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: oohhboy
GTA is not a game of quality.
Yes it is. It's so good i'd buy a new system for it, which is why it's important for me that Nintendo gets it on Wii.
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2007, 12:49:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: MarioQuote
Originally posted by: oohhboy
GTA is not a game of quality.
Yes it is. It's so good i'd buy a new system for it, which is why it's important for me that Nintendo gets it on Wii.
QFT. This game is made by DMA.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 11, 2007, 04:26:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
When Nintendo gamers have pooh-poohed million selling hits like GTA, MGS, FF, GoW, God of War, and countless other games that are examples of exactly what third parties have to offer if they came on board, then it seems clear that Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biased and cracked lenses.
The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.
This sort of elitism is close-minded, counter-productive, poisonous, and is what's keeping us in the Nintendo Ghetto.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Yeah those games have been one of the root causes to make gaming more of a pop culture phenomena instead of substance because they are "cool" because you can shoot things. Personally I don't find the games you listed as "poor" but they are leaning towards being generic (Especially the GTA series which has been recycled like crazy). There is little to no innovation found in them, let's run down the list:
GTA: Was pretty unique when first began (as in GTA3 where it made a name for itself) but is basically more of the same
GoW: A mindless shooter with high production values
God of War: A quality action game but still doesn't do anything unique
Final Fantasy: A series that has been stagnant for quite some time and is hinging on being a "watch" more than you play
Metal Gear solid: Good series, but basically more of the the same except it is becoming more of a movie than a game
Countless Other Games: Probably a mishmash of the above.
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2007, 04:42:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
When Nintendo gamers have pooh-poohed million selling hits like GTA, MGS, FF, GoW, God of War, and countless other games that are examples of exactly what third parties have to offer if they came on board, then it seems clear that Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biased and cracked lenses.
The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.
This sort of elitism is close-minded, counter-productive, poisonous, and is what's keeping us in the Nintendo Ghetto.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Yeah those games have been one of the root causes to make gaming more of a pop culture phenomena instead of substance because they are "cool" because you can shoot things. Personally I don't find the games you listed as "poor" but they are leaning towards being generic (Especially the GTA series which has been recycled like crazy). There is little to no innovation found in them, let's run down the list:
GTA: Was pretty unique when it first began but is basically more of the same
GoW: A mindless shooter with high production values
God of War: A quality action game but still doesn't do anything unique
Final Fantasy: A series that has been stagnant for quite some time and is hinging on being a "watch" more than you play
Metal Gear solid: Good series, but basically more of the the same except it is becoming more of a movie than a game
Countless Other Games: Probably a mishmash of the above.
So I take it you wouldn't buy these games in the completely hypothetical situation that they landed on the Wii right?
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 11, 2007, 04:49:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
When Nintendo gamers have pooh-poohed million selling hits like GTA, MGS, FF, GoW, God of War, and countless other games that are examples of exactly what third parties have to offer if they came on board, then it seems clear that Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biased and cracked lenses.
The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.
This sort of elitism is close-minded, counter-productive, poisonous, and is what's keeping us in the Nintendo Ghetto.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Yeah those games have been one of the root causes to make gaming more of a pop culture phenomena instead of substance because they are "cool" because you can shoot things. Personally I don't find the games you listed as "poor" but they are leaning towards being generic (Especially the GTA series which has been recycled like crazy). There is little to no innovation found in them, let's run down the list:
GTA: Was pretty unique when it first began but is basically more of the same
GoW: A mindless shooter with high production values
God of War: A quality action game but still doesn't do anything unique
Final Fantasy: A series that has been stagnant for quite some time and is hinging on being a "watch" more than you play
Metal Gear solid: Good series, but basically more of the the same except it is becoming more of a movie than a game
Countless Other Games: Probably a mishmash of the above.
So I take it you wouldn't buy these games in the completely hypothetical situation that they landed on the Wii right?
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
I wouldn't touch Final Fantasy or MGS because I don't care much for either series (I've really tried to get into MGS, but I only beat MGS2, MGS3 was unimpressive. FF, the only game I've really liked in the series was FFIV). GTA, I actually own every GTA because they are mindless fun, but not what I'd call innovative. Personally I've gotten more enjoyment from the Godfather game, along with Saint's Row. God of War, I also own this as well, and like I said it is a very good action game, just not pushing the industry into new lands. GoW, didn't care much for it, and personally find Lost Planet to be a better title.
Would I buy these if they were on Wii? Probably not unless they had some unique uses of the Wimote, because I'd just buy them (Like I have been) for Xbox 360 or PS3 (whenever I get a PS3) because of the graphical upgrade. I'll probably get Manhunt 2 for Wii if it is any good because it sounds like the Wii version will be the best one if they handle the controls well.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2007, 06:13:41 PM
Uh, how do you know that's going to attract a large userbase? The "mature" games on the Wii are nice but no system sellers and the 360 has better ones.
GTA, I actually own every GTA because they are mindless fun, but not what I'd call innovative.
So free-roaming games like that were commonplace before GTA3 came out?
Post by: denjet78 on February 11, 2007, 06:15:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
When Nintendo gamers have pooh-poohed million selling hits like GTA, MGS, FF, GoW, God of War, and countless other games that are examples of exactly what third parties have to offer if they came on board, then it seems clear that Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biased and cracked lenses.
The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.
This sort of elitism is close-minded, counter-productive, poisonous, and is what's keeping us in the Nintendo Ghetto.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
I wouldn't say "Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biases and cracked lenses". A big part of the issue is that Nintendo gamers are just plain pissed at 3rd parties. I know I am. For TWO generations they've crapped all over you if you primarily buy Nintendo saying their games won't sell when they have absolutely zero proof of that because they won't put their games on Nintendo platforms in the first place. And then, to come out and actively SUPPORT Sony and MS in their mudslinging campaign against Nintendo. To tell US, the GAMERS, that if you want to play a "real" game you need to buy a PS or XBox.
It's not completely the Nintendo gamers fault. 3rd parties have made their own beds over the past few generations. Anger is to be expected. Especially after all the garbage they've put us through. It's going to take time for that resentment to subside. And it's going to take QUALITY games to prove that they're not just blowing smoke.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 11, 2007, 06:28:28 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 11, 2007, 06:29:17 PM
Sorry about the double post, not sure what happened!
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2007, 10:23:53 PM
Post by: JonLeung on February 12, 2007, 02:03:47 AM
Regardless of Capcom's stance and reasoning, I think that an email response from the "Sr. Director of Strategic Planning & Research" could be a lot better than just being a statement that Nintendo is "for kids".
Then again, I've always valued honesty, even when it's blunt, but if that's how they all think, that's pretty much idiocy.
I love Capcom, and I thought they worked together with Nintendo often...there are the handheld Legend of Zelda games, the RE exclusivity (even if other than RE 0 they are remakes/ports and RE 4 didn't stay exclusive) and the "Capcom 5" (even though one died and three were not exclusive) and...oh, wait, maybe those last two aren't good examples. >_<
If the Wii continues being a hit, Capcom better devote more resources to Wii games soon. It's really their loss if they don't get on board now, isn't it?
Post by: Ceric on February 12, 2007, 02:32:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
GTA 3 was the first free-roaming carefree game, there were no permanent negative consequences, if you died you respawned, if you messed up you tried again. It did play unlike anything before it and I'd call that innovative even though the components may not be all that new.
You know that sounds a lot like GTA, expansion, and GTA2...
Post by: KDR_11k on February 12, 2007, 02:53:00 AM
If the Wii continues being a hit, Capcom better devote more resources to Wii games soon. It's really their loss if they don't get on board now, isn't it?
They are on board, that's what the whole thread is about. They just haven't moved their entire output to the Wii.
Post by: ryancoke on February 12, 2007, 03:27:42 AM
Post by: JonLeung on February 12, 2007, 03:56:11 AM
Dead Rising and Lost Planet I have to keep reminding myself that they're by Capcom. They certainly don't look like Capcom games. But what does it mean to "look" like a Capcom game? I guess that's what happens when you play lots of colourful NES-era Mega Man games and Capcom-developed Disney platformers, and even their Super NES-era fighting games were colourful but not ever trying to be realistic.
By the way, what makes Konami "mature"? Sure, they have Silent Hill and Metal Gear Solid, but how come no one ever makes a big deal about Konami's Yu-Gi-Oh!, Disney Sports games, Goemon, etc.? Yu-Gi-Oh! in particular is really big, but the Konami name seems separate from it. CastleVania is kind of like Capcom's Street Fighter...not exactly for kids, but some of the games are fairly colourful and often not as bloody as you might think.
(When I got serious about gaming in the NES era, Capcom and Konami were the first two third-party developers I recognized. They were distinct, and yet looking back on it like I just did there they are kind of similar. They both are Japanese (if that means anything) and have been around for about as long (or at least I think so). They have many franchises across a few genres, some long-running and very recognizeable. They both have "mature games" as well as Saturday morning cartoon fare (literally, in the form of MMBN and Yu-Gi-Oh!).)
I guess this topic is about Capcom, though. However, I hope their belief that "Nintendo is for kids" isn't as prevalent in other companies. The Wii will probably get some Yu-Gi-Oh! games, but it will get games like Manhunt 2 if developers will simply do it. Chicken/egg, as was already mentioned.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 12, 2007, 04:27:17 AM
Post by: zakkiel on February 12, 2007, 04:52:10 AM
QuoteI wouldn't touch GTA or FF with a ten-foot-pole, and I haven't been able to get into MGS. But I would certainly by Gears of War, Resistance, Halo. There's an enormous market on the Wii for quality, mature shooters waiting to be satisfied. You don't have to think any of those are the bee's knees to be willing to buy them.
When Nintendo gamers have pooh-poohed million selling hits like GTA, MGS, FF, GoW, God of War, and countless other games that are examples of exactly what third parties have to offer if they came on board, then it seems clear that Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biased and cracked lenses.
The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.
This sort of elitism is close-minded, counter-productive, poisonous, and is what's keeping us in the Nintendo Ghetto.
Anyway, I think your supposed "problem" is bunk. Red steel got enormous positive buzz the second it was announced for the Wii. Nintendo gamers long to embrace any real third-party investment. Witness the sales of RS despite mediocre reviews. If any major third party announced tomorrow it was developing a Wii game on the scale of HL2, there would be wild exaltation among fans everywhere.
Post by: JonLeung on February 12, 2007, 05:14:26 AM
QuoteOh, I see them all right. GTA on the PC. I played all the FFs up to VIII without requiring a PlayStation (VII and VIII are on PC, and then I borrowed a PSX for IX, though I could've avoided that too thanks to the ePSXe emulator). MG and MGS:TS are on Nintendo consoles (and there's also a GBC game), and MGS2: Substance I played on PC.
Originally posted by: Kairon
When Nintendo gamers have pooh-poohed million selling hits like GTA, MGS, FF, GoW, God of War, and countless other games that are examples of exactly what third parties have to offer if they came on board, then it seems clear that Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biased and cracked lenses.
The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.
Though I guess the question is why they aren't predominantly on Nintendo consoles. In the meantime, Nintendo gamers should also have at least one good PC (like I do). I support good games on any platform, but I'm not going to shell out money for another console when I can play a version on my PC. I come off as a Nintendo fanboy, but that doesn't mean I haven't played GTA, MGS, or FF.
The thing is, Nintendo consoles have many more recognizeable and still popular big-name first-party Nintendo games than the PlayStations have Sony games and the Xbox has Microsoft games. Which is why there are Nintendo fans but most PlayStation and Xbox owners aren't Sony or Microsoft fans. They just happen to own one of their consoles. Therefore, many developers may feel intimidated by Nintendo and their games. After third-party support dropped in the N64 days, it dropped even more when they saw that usually only Nintendo games sold really well. Stupid spiral of non-support. You can't blame Nintendo for being good at what they do, and I don't think Nintendo slowing down their own releases or not making them as good is the answer.
I think if developers took the "risk" in making more good games for any demographic for the Wii, that would encourage other developers to make more good games for that whole spectrum as well.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 12, 2007, 11:50:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k Uh, how do you know that's going to attract a large userbase? The "mature" games on the Wii are nice but no system sellers and the 360 has better ones.
I'm going to let Kairon answer this one because he already fielded it...
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon Nothing forces third party developers and publishers to improve like competition on THEIR level. (i.e. Nintendo games blow 'em away anyways so there's no point, but similar third party shovelware....) You start at shovel level, and you work your way up. We're seeing Scar Face, Godfather, and Man Hunt all land on the Wii. If they want to sell, each game of this type will have to outdo the other.
In short, the best shovel port wins, raises the bar, and the cycle of competitive improvement repeats.
A large userbase = a large mature gamer userbase as well.
The PS2 got all of the mature games because of its huge userbase. No other reason.
When the Wii attains a userbase of similar size, it will likewise have M games in force.
The fact that it's even getting THIS many M games this early on is actually pretty remarkable, considering Nintendo's track record for M games. This bode extremely well for the Wii's lifelong game variety.
Post by: Kairon on February 12, 2007, 11:54:58 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: MaryJane on February 12, 2007, 11:55:59 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon We're seeing Scar Face, Godfather, and Man Hunt all land on the Wii.
I just happened to be watching Scarface, we took a little break for something, and I just wanted to say it's one word. Scarface.
Post by: Kairon on February 12, 2007, 11:57:41 AM
*ahem* GameBoy... that is all...
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 12, 2007, 12:20:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
It's sort of weird to see you being all optimistic S_B when you were so stressed out when you were wii hunting! LOL.
In this case, Nintendo (specifically Reggie) has already demonstrated that they understand that the Wii needs M games to thrive just as much as it needs E games. If Manhunt 2 was indeed his decision, then he has done Nintendo a colossal favor when it comes to not only shedding their kiddie image but also in giving other developers the green light who may have previously been cautious about bringing M titles to the Wii.
Less than a year after its launch and the Wii will already be bringing in at least one highly controversial M title and a bunch of others to boot. Considering how this would NOT have happened on the GC or even GC2, that ain't a bad day's work...
Also, it's the fact that Nintendo seems to realize that they NEED to set their console's precedent ASAP, when it comes to which titles are appropriate for it, which gives me hope on the subject. If the Wii loads up on M games early, it will set the stage for more to show up, especially as the userbase expands and developing for it becomes more lucrative.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 12, 2007, 12:24:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
It's sort of weird to see you being all optimistic S_B when you were so stressed out when you were wii hunting! LOL.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
That's because I put a death threat on his head when he went Wii hunting for me. If he failed, he would die a horrible, horrible death.
Would YOU be cool as a cucumber when you are doing Wii hunting under such conditions?
Post by: Kairon on February 12, 2007, 12:27:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
Would YOU be cool as a cucumber when you are doing Wii hunting under such conditions?
No. I prefer Zucchinis.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: JonLeung on February 12, 2007, 12:31:57 PM
I would be an English teacher, except I'd probably get fired after totally freaking out about some kid's misuse of "your" and "you're", or writing "should of" instead of "should've" or something like that.
I see M-rated games like sex. No individual person NEEDS sex to survive, but the species as a whole do. I don't think any particular Nintendo console NEEDS M-rated games, but overall, they should have some. I don't know if it's a matter of survivial, though.
Really, it's all for the image. With the exception of blips like GTA, the best-selling games have usually always been E-rated games. Say what you want about Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh!, but they make Nintendo and Konami a pretty penny.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 12, 2007, 12:43:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
Would YOU be cool as a cucumber when you are doing Wii hunting under such conditions?
Actually, it was 12° when I waited in line outside Best Buy: cucumbers didn't have a damn thing on ME.
Quote
Originally posted by: JonLeung I see M-rated games like sex. No individual person NEEDS sex to survive, but the species as a whole do. I don't think any particular Nintendo console NEEDS M-rated games, but overall, they should have some. I don't know if it's a matter of survivial, though.
It's not survival, but why settle for "strong competitor" without M games when Nintendo could have "full-blown market domination" with M rated games?
I already know which one Nintendo will choose...
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 12, 2007, 12:57:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: pap64
Would YOU be cool as a cucumber when you are doing Wii hunting under such conditions?
Actually, it was 12° when I waited in line outside Best Buy: cucumbers didn't have a damn thing on ME.
...That death threat still stands, you know...
Post by: Ceric on February 12, 2007, 01:25:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: JonLeung
Just when I get off my high horse about Game Boy being two words (not one!), Kairon frustrates me again by making Scarface two words as well as Manhunt. >_<
I would be an English teacher, except I'd probably get fired after totally freaking out about some kid's misuse of "your" and "you're", or writing "should of" instead of "should've" or something like that.
I see M-rated games like sex. No individual person NEEDS sex to survive, but the species as a whole do. I don't think any particular Nintendo console NEEDS M-rated games, but overall, they should have some. I don't know if it's a matter of survivial, though.
Really, it's all for the image. With the exception of blips like GTA, the best-selling games have usually always been E-rated games. Say what you want about Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh!, but they make Nintendo and Konami a pretty penny.
For you and Tyco they need to make a game where you go through correct people's grammar with extreme prejudice. In fact I might get a kick out of it even though I'm terrible at grammar.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 12, 2007, 02:12:19 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 12, 2007, 10:42:00 PM
Post by: The Omen on February 13, 2007, 02:22:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Dead Rising on the Wii wouldn't work, the Wii can't handle huge loads of actors onscreen.
We'll just have to see about that. I happen to think they coukld scale it back a little bit like RE4 for the PS2. In fact, I think it will be on the Wii. Apparently, Okami may be heading this way as well./
Okami to wii?
Post by: KDR_11k on February 13, 2007, 03:29:01 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on February 13, 2007, 04:52:47 AM
But KDR I have a question.
The Wii is more capable than the Gamecube, and it allowed for 100 Pikmin on screen at a time moving and such. Rogue Squadron allowed for several enemies on screen attacking you as well (don't know the number.)
So why couldn't the Wii be able to handle Dead Rising. Sure the graphics may not be the same...but I never really looked at that game as a graphical powerhouse to begin with.
Post by: Kairon on February 13, 2007, 04:55:13 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 13, 2007, 04:56:17 AM
QuoteI'm guessing you never peeked into the Official Capcom Forums that was linked back on the 1st or 2nd page? Sven, the senior Director of Marketing, said that he also thought Okami would be a perfect fit for the Wii and the Wiimote, and that Capcom did hear the cryout for the game, but he had nothing more to say about that partiular game. So IGN was late to the news on this one. We knew this like two days ago.
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Ah, great, less than a week after I buy the game the Wii version is planned...
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 13, 2007, 05:17:07 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 13, 2007, 06:16:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
I hope that Okami jumps to the Wii. It was a game I was very depressed I missed...and a Wii version would be incredible.
But KDR I have a question.
The Wii is more capable than the Gamecube, and it allowed for 100 Pikmin on screen at a time moving and such. Rogue Squadron allowed for several enemies on screen attacking you as well (don't know the number.)
So why couldn't the Wii be able to handle Dead Rising. Sure the graphics may not be the same...but I never really looked at that game as a graphical powerhouse to begin with.
Rogue Squadron has really simple physics since colisions are rare (although the AI was dumb enough to ram you very often). Pikmin had severe issues with pathfinding. Sure, you can make loads of actors but they'll be pretty dumb as a result. Earth defense Force as similarily dumb enemies that just make up for it by being able to walk over any obstacle. While I have no idea how intelligent the AI is in Dead Rising you'd need some intelligence for enemies like that since players are very good at exploiting AI problems and e.g. zombies that can't figure out how to use stairs will end up being killed with no chance to ever reach the player.
Post by: The Omen on February 13, 2007, 06:26:55 AM
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While I have no idea how intelligent the AI is in Dead Rising you'd need some intelligence for enemies like that since players are very good at exploiting AI problems and e.g. zombies that can't figure out how to use stairs will end up being killed with no chance to ever reach the player.
Well how intelligent were the 'zombies' in RE4? To me, the Wii is capable of duplicating the great graphics from RE4 while including more enemies on screen.
Post by: JonLeung on February 13, 2007, 06:46:17 AM
If there is some AI, I would guess that it's probably just coordinating groups of zombies. There really isn't any point for every zombie to have their own individual AI mind. And in any case, the only "intelligence" seems to be to group in numbers and move toward the player. They're certainly not agile or dextrous enough to be a threat in any other way. Don't expect zombies to get a hold of a sniper rifle and snipe you in the head the instant you move away from some cover, for instance. And from what I saw on X-Play that one time, some non-zombie NPCs aren't that bright either.
I think the Wii could handle a scaled-down version. Do you really need all the detail on a zombie's clothes when in a few seconds you'll dispatch them and then you won't care how they look? Are all the polygons even necessary? I'm not saying the zombies ought to be totally textureless or blocky, but the detail could be taken down a little in both regards and I'd still play it.
Post by: Adrock on February 13, 2007, 07:21:44 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 13, 2007, 07:25:07 AM
Post by: The Omen on February 13, 2007, 07:30:18 AM
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From what I've seen of Dead Rising, there doesn't seem to be much time to even see how much intelligence the zombies have. I always see the main character running through a bunch of them, or lunging into a crowd with an axe or chainsaw in hand and just slicing everything into ribbons.
A perfect work around would be to zoom in slightly to make it appear like you're surrounded by countless enemies. It's worked in film for years.
But I do agree that the Wii could handle a port at around 80% with all the bells and whistles toned down.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 13, 2007, 08:27:29 AM
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Originally posted by: The OmenQuote
From what I've seen of Dead Rising, there doesn't seem to be much time to even see how much intelligence the zombies have. I always see the main character running through a bunch of them, or lunging into a crowd with an axe or chainsaw in hand and just slicing everything into ribbons.
A perfect work around would be to zoom in slightly to make it appear like you're surrounded by countless enemies. It's worked in film for years.
But I do agree that the Wii could handle a port at around 80% with all the bells and whistles toned down.
I agree, personally I think a game like Dead Rising would be a good predictor of how well Wii can handle visuals (amongst other things) in Standard Definition compared to the Xbox 360 in standard definition. One game that comes to mind with alot of enemies onscreen at once with similar AI is state of emergency and that was done on the PS2!
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 13, 2007, 09:12:54 AM
Dead Rising didn't need to be graphically beautiful: the game was about hordes of zombies, and I've seen plenty of games that have "proximity managed detail" which makes objects you move closer to more detailed and those in the distance far less detailed.
You could still have hordes of zombies, just not as detailed as they were on the 360.
Post by: Kairon on February 13, 2007, 09:32:52 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 13, 2007, 10:18:52 AM
However, Okami excites me.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 14, 2007, 02:38:32 AM
That's not what I mean with AI (besides, 100% accuracy is bad AI). AI for Zombies would be stuff like walking around obstacles instead of getting stuck on them or going to the stairs when you're upstairs instead of walking straight towards your position, most likely ending up underneath the floor you stand on.
Post by: Spak-Spang on February 14, 2007, 02:43:48 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 14, 2007, 03:02:12 AM
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
That's not what I mean with AI (besides, 100% accuracy is bad AI). AI for Zombies would be stuff like walking around obstacles instead of getting stuck on them or going to the stairs when you're upstairs instead of walking straight towards your position, most likely ending up underneath the floor you stand on.
I dunno, I wouldn't think a zombie would be bright enough to find stairs to get up to you on a higher level...
Post by: JonLeung on February 14, 2007, 03:25:33 AM
Now that I think about it, if everything in the game can be used as a weapon, there might be more physics processing than zombie AI. Now that might be an issue.
Post by: darknight06 on February 14, 2007, 04:56:33 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 14, 2007, 05:15:37 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 14, 2007, 07:18:48 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 14, 2007, 07:27:45 AM
The zombies are dangerous because there are thousands of them. Taking advantage of their stupidity just makes it a fair fight.
Besides, there are other more intelligent enemies you'll have to deal with in the game.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 14, 2007, 07:10:41 PM
Post by: oohhboy on February 14, 2007, 09:36:11 PM
Surviors has short, very narrow detect and shoot distance. No friendly fire check. Aim is abiratry. One survior only shots the head with high accurracy. Others spray and pray. They appear to have better chase AI than zombies, but it is hard to tell since they frequently get scared or bitten. Limited commands.
Special forces have similar limitations. They only attack you with their guns at near point blank. They appear have enhance look and shoot arcs. Wider activation by play radius. Pure pursuit.
Convicts in car. Pure pursuit when making attack runs. Can reverse. No obstacle check when moving. Happy to ram trees. Can get stuck on trees. Huge and inconsistant dection radius. Inconsistant ability/will? to pursuit over long distances?
Some bosses have scripted pathfinding and distance/direction based attack choices. See supermarket manager. Most melee bosses are attack and retreat with enhanced path finding. See Buchter. Gun types stand and shoot unless pursuited, then it becomes shoot and scoot. fires regardless of obstacles. If there are two targets, favors player unless there is no LOS. Motorcycle boss AI is similar to convict AI but has enchanced abilities to drive over obstacles and retreats if there is no path to player. All bosses disregard zombies and vis versa.
The AI is dumb and is easy to lead individually.
Post by: JonLeung on February 15, 2007, 03:48:34 AM
Other than Dead Rising and Lost Planet and Okami, what other Capcom "one-shot" (so far) or new franchises have there been that are recent?
Post by: KDR_11k on February 15, 2007, 04:03:23 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 15, 2007, 05:19:36 AM
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Originally posted by: oohhboy
The AI are thick as bricks. It's limitations are fairly easy to identify.
You just described 90% of all games in existence.
But like I said, if the AI in Dead Rising was brilliant, the game would be nigh-impossible. If EVERY zombie you ran across leapt on you then you'd never be able to get anywhere in the game.
The point of DR isn't to have brilliant AI but to have hordes and hordes of enemies to kill, something which I'm sure the Wii could handle, but not something which I think would make for an ideal port.
You'd pass out from exhaustion swinging the remote around...
